Catholic Providence Health Care System and induced labor abortion

Last month I spoke at a pro-life conference in OR and mentioned that a large west coast Catholic health care system, Providence Health & Services, was committing induced labor abortion.

I received the following letter via email while on vacation and didn't spot it until yesterday (click to enlarge):

This issue goes back to 2004 when I received a call from Catholic news reporter Tom Szyszkiewicz, who had published an article in Our Sunday Visitor in March 2004. There he wrote....

An Our Sunday Visitor investigation has revealed that some Catholic hospitals perform a procedure called "early induction for fetuses with anomalies incompatible with life"... or simply as "early induction." This procedure induces a woman into labor after her unborn child reaches viability around 23 to 26 weeks in cases when the child is known to have a condition that makes death inevitable soon after even a full-term birth. The child born in this way is made comfortable and often held by the mother until death.

The two most common conditions for which this procedure is performed are anencephaly, in which the child's brain and skull fail to develop beyond the brain stem, and renal agenesis, in which the kidneys and lungs are underdeveloped....

Neither presents an immediate danger to the mother....

Those Catholic hospitals that OSV found using the... procedure are Providence Alaska Medical Center in Anchorage, Alaska, part of the 10th-largest Catholic health system in the country, and Loyola University Health System in Chicago.

After I spoke with Tom I called both Loyola and Providence and confirmed what he was saying was true. Both systems admitted they committed, "early induction of labor" for fatally ill babies but insisted these were ethical. Providence stated not all its hospitals were involved, but the system approved the policy. Loyola even sent me its position paper (verbiage below). I wrote a total of 3 columns on Loyola/Providence: here, here, and here.

Reporter Maria Kennedy of the California Catholic newspaper San Francisco Faith read my columns and conducted an investigation of the entire Providence system. She wrote in November 2004:

Dan Boyle, communications director for Providence Saint Joseph in Burbank... said he had called Providence's corporate headquarters in Seattle for directions on how to respond to any media calls regarding the story. Providence Health Systems issued a statement, which even Boyle called "vague." The statement says that Providence Health System:
"follow[s] the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services, approved by the Vatican in Rome for use in the United States. In individual cases where difficult decisions regarding such issues as early induction during pregnancy occur in a Providence hospital, an ethical review process is undertaken at the institutional level to assure that practices are consistent with the Ethical and Religious Directives. As concerned providers of care we realize that women and families in this situation are suffering greatly. We strive to extend to them respectful, compassionate care throughout a very difficult decision-making process."

When this reporter pressed Boyle on whether or not late term abortions were performed at Providence hospitals in the San Fernando Valley, he said, "I did check with our corporate headquarters, and I'm very limited in what I can say." According to Boyle, "this procedure is done rarely; it's a private procedure. If this procedure is necessary, we conduct an ethical review to make sure we are in compliance with the Ethical and Religious Directives."

Clearly, Providence was involved in induced labor abortion. I also contacted the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, which was already aware that some Catholic hospitals were twisting the Catholic Church's sanction of full-term or crisis induction of labor so as to induce premature labor before a baby was viable for the express purpose of provoking unnatural death of the baby, i.e., killing the baby.

providence2.jpg

The USCCB sent me 2 documents clearly stating the Catholic position, "National Council of Catholic Bishops Statement on Early Induction of Labor," which it issued 4 days after Tom's article was published, and "Moral Principles Concerning Infants with Anencephaly."

If Providence has since changed its position, it can clear this matter up by sending me its revised policy. Otherwise, the system still sanctions induced labor abortion.

Loyola's "early induction of labor" policy, sent to me in September 2004:

Early induction is performed at LUHS only if the fetus has reached 24 weeks of gestation - currently accepted as the stage of viability - which is consistent with the Ethical and Religious Directives for Health Care Services. In addition, early induction for fetuses with anomalies is only performed at Loyola if the fetus has anencephaly or Potter's disease (underdevelopment of the brain and kidneys, respectively). Both of these conditions are fatal to the fetus.

UPDATE, 2/22, 12:10p: Tom Szyszkiewicz has sent me the link to a Catholic Anchor article indicating Providence Alaska Medical Center has mended its ways. But why is it refusing to release its new policy? Still not convinced.

Meanwhile, both Maria Kennedy and I confirmed the Providence system condones the practice and has 3 other hospitals in AK as well as 20 hospitals in CA, OR, MT, and WA. Until it produces a revised policy it is condemned.


Comments:

WOW! they really chewed you out in that letter, Jill!

(I'll read the rest now.)

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2008 12:35 PM


Okay, so the USCCB is aware of it, and gave the Catholic Church's position on it. So my question, is what are they going to do about it? This is reminding me so much of the molestation and rape in this religion being "shelved" for so many years.

This religion needs to do something about this QUICKLY, unless it hasn't learned one ounce of a lesson from it's previous hypocrisy.

Jill, did you write Providence back yet?
:)

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2008 1:04 PM


Anon, I emailed the Providence official who wrote me a link to my post and said, "If you can produce a Providence system-wide policy indicating it no longer commits early induction of labor for fetal anomalies, Iíll shout it from the mountaintops."

Posted by: Jill Stanek at February 21, 2008 1:14 PM


I just got chills!

God bless you, Jill!!!

:)

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2008 1:15 PM


Unfortunately, the Catholic Church in North America (that includes Canada and the US) is considerably lacking in leadership from it's bishops.
As a Catholic I can say that we cry to Rome for help and ask them to remove bishops who do not uphold the teachings of the church, all to no avail.
This situation applies to rogue Catholic politicians such as your infamous Ted Kennedy, Canada's Dalton McGuinty (Premier of the province of Ontario), Jean Chretien (Canada's former PM) our rogue "Catholic" school boards and teacher's associations,our rogue "Catholic" hospitals and last but not least, our rogue Catholic doctors who fill our daughters BC prescriptions and morning after pills.
I have no doubt that these procedures are being done in Providence and they've hoped no one would notice.

I've had 4 children and I've never dealt with anything like what these parents of babies with Potter's syndrome or ancephaly will deal with. But, with proper support, these situations can be gotten through without killing the baby.

Please check out the blog, Isabel's Hope at
http://isabelhope.blogspot.com/2007/06/isabel-was-born-early-this-morning-at.html
When I read this blog I cried but I think this family has set a beautiful example for their children and i also believe this strengthened their marriage. Who knows what Isabel Hope knew before she died but I'm sure she knew she was loved. Especially touching (for me anyway) was the photo of the greiving dad holding his dying daughter.

Posted by: Patricia at February 21, 2008 1:25 PM


Okay, so the USCCB is aware of it, and gave the Catholic Church's position on it. So my question, is what are they going to do about it? This is reminding me so much of the molestation and rape in this religion being "shelved" for so many years.

This religion needs to do something about this QUICKLY, unless it hasn't learned one ounce of a lesson from it's previous hypocrisy.

Jill, did you write Providence back yet?
:)

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2008 1:04 PM


Anon, 1:04,

Obviously you don't like the Catholic Church, I'm wondering, which "perfect" group are you affiliated with?

Posted by: Janet at February 21, 2008 1:42 PM


Janet,

The body of Christ. The ONLY perfect group one can belong to.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2008 1:44 PM


"Anon, I emailed the Providence official who wrote me a link to my post and said, "If you can produce a Providence system-wide policy indicating it no longer commits early induction of labor for fetal anomalies, Iíll shout it from the mountaintops."


..and did he respond to you Jill?

Posted by: jasper at February 21, 2008 1:54 PM


Anon 1:44,

Oh.

Posted by: Janet at February 21, 2008 2:00 PM


Jasper, no, but I just emailed the guy an hour or 2 ago.

That said, I honestly don't expect to hear back. My information is irrefutable, and I don't think the corp. has changed its policy. Last I heard Alaska pro-lifers were still battling it out with it.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at February 21, 2008 2:14 PM


What's the point of making someone carry a doomed pregnancy to term?

There's no difference in the outcome.

Squeeze it out at 6mos. and watch it die, or squeeze it out at 9mos. and watch it die. What's the difference? Do you enjoy inflicting the extra physical and emotional punishment on the pregnant woman? Does that flood you with some sort of sick joy?
Suffering is bad.

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 21, 2008 2:21 PM


One of my friends was pregnant with Grace, a baby with anencephaly. They were urged to abort. They did not. She was born naturally and lived one hour.

Another friend had a baby also named Grace, who had Potter's syndrome. They were urged to abort. They did not. She was born naturally and lived two hours.

In each case, the families loved those girls and allowed God to decide when He would call them home.

Posted by: Carla at February 21, 2008 2:39 PM


Patricia, so you have seen sweet Isabel too.
Isabel Hope's mother is a friend of mine, and has been part of my blog for a couple of years now. I was so saddened for her when her baby died of Potter's Syndrome....Debra is such a GOOD mother...she has made the most beautiful memorial page I have ever seen for a little baby.

I drew this picture for her in memorial of Isabel. http://isabelhope.blogspot.com/2007/10/bethanys-gift.html

Her baby was so beautiful.

Posted by: Bethany at February 21, 2008 2:41 PM


Bethany,
Breathtaking. Really.

Posted by: Carla at February 21, 2008 2:44 PM


Jill, you are so bold and so strong in what you do. God has blessed you greatly that way. I'm so thankful that you stand for what you know is right no matter what opposition comes your way. Thank you for standing up for these babies.

Posted by: Bethany at February 21, 2008 2:46 PM


Bethany,

What a thoughtful gift. Her web site is beautifully done. I'll go back to look at it all when I have more time.

Posted by: Janet at February 21, 2008 2:47 PM


Thank you, Carla....

Posted by: Bethany at February 21, 2008 2:47 PM


Oh Bethany, I didn't know it was YOU!
My girls and I spent some time looking over this blog and discussing what happened. You see, my eldest girl is interested in becoming a pediatrician and I take every opportunity to demonstrate to her that parents can respond in the most heroic ways, if given the support.
Isabel's parents are really great examples of that. Like I said, the pic of her dad holding her made me cry.
The blog gave us a sense of who the family was and put a face to the baby - it wasn't just an imperfect baby who should be "terminated". This was a PERSON, a human being, who felt, was loved and gave something back to her family. The world was a better place for Isabel Hope having been born.

Posted by: Patricia at February 21, 2008 2:55 PM


"Squeeze it out at 6mos. and watch it die, or squeeze it out at 9mos. and watch it die. What's the difference? Do you enjoy inflicting the extra physical and emotional punishment on the pregnant woman? Does that flood you with some sort of sick joy?
Suffering is bad."

See, this comment is very anti-woman. "Squeeze it out" is a denigration of the uniquely female power to give birth and life. Makes it sound like a zit, or lemon juice, or something else that is equally mundane. And the difference is great. It's the same difference that exists between letting a grown adult die of natural causes, or, knowing that the grown adult will die at some point (possibly sooner rather than later) killing him and hastening the process. It's all about our actions and intent - not the outcome...

And what makes you think that the abortion will lessen the "physical and emotional punishment"? All it will do is add layers of guilt and what ifs while cutting short the normal grieving process.

S.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2008 2:56 PM


"What's the point of making someone carry a doomed pregnancy to term?...Suffering is bad"
-------------------------------------------
Soooo...what's wrong with letting nature take it's natural course?

Apparently, Laura, you have never heard of "Redemptive Suffering"...

Posted by: RSD at February 21, 2008 2:59 PM


Patricia,
I love what you wrote, especially this,
"parents can respond in the most heroic ways, if given the support."

Posted by: Carla at February 21, 2008 3:03 PM


FF/Laura
You're right suffering is bad. But suffering is a part of this world. The post-modern world sees no value in suffering and therefore wants to avoid it at all costs. However,suffering can bring about a great deal of grace, growth and even healing.
There is a difference between "squeezing" a baby out at 6 mons and when due to be born at 9mons as you so crassly put it.
At 6 mons the children of the above family would learn that imperfections are not to be tolerated. THey would have learned that suffering has no value. Children learn by example and not by what they are told.

At 9 mons with the birth of their dying baby sister, these children have learned that their sister was a human being, a person with dignity and worth, a person to be loved, sometimes at great cost.

Posted by: Patricia at February 21, 2008 3:06 PM


Oh Bethany, I didn't know it was YOU!
My girls and I spent some time looking over this blog and discussing what happened. You see, my eldest girl is interested in becoming a pediatrician and I take every opportunity to demonstrate to her that parents can respond in the most heroic ways, if given the support.
Isabel's parents are really great examples of that. Like I said, the pic of her dad holding her made me cry.
The blog gave us a sense of who the family was and put a face to the baby - it wasn't just an imperfect baby who should be "terminated". This was a PERSON, a human being, who felt, was loved and gave something back to her family. The world was a better place for Isabel Hope having been born.

Absolutely, Patricia. That is exactly what I am sure Debra would hope that most people get out of her child's experience.

Posted by: Bethany at February 21, 2008 3:11 PM


Squeeze it out at 6mos. and watch it die, or squeeze it out at 9mos. and watch it die. What's the difference? Do you enjoy inflicting the extra physical and emotional punishment on the pregnant woman? Does that flood you with some sort of sick joy?
Suffering is bad.

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 21, 2008 2:21 PMFF:

FF,
You sat there and watched your dad suffer in a doomed situation for 5 months prior to him dying. You knew he was going to die. Why didn't you take a pillow and smother him to put him out of his misery. Why didn't you give him an extra dose of pain killers to kill him off. Why didn't you stick a pair of scissors in the back of his head and crush his skull to put him out of misery. Why didn't you have someone inject his heart with medication to make it stop beating. Why didn't you put him in a bath tub full of scalding water laced with salt? Sit there and watch him die now or sit there and watch him die 5 months later.

Did you enjoy inflicting the extra physical and emotional punishment on him and the people who cared for him for five months? Did that flood you with some sort of sick joy?
Suffering is bad.

Your pathetic FF. These babies are human just like your father was. They should be treated with the same dignity and care that I am sure your father recieved before his natural death.

Posted by: Sandy at February 21, 2008 3:27 PM


FF doesn't like 'em, cuz FF can't have 'em.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2008 3:41 PM


Something I must address:

"our rogue Catholic doctors who fill our daughters BC prescriptions and morning after pills"
Part of being in the profession is that you must fill out the prescriptions as needed. If you want "Catholic"s practicing medicine then you will have to deal with that or ask them to get a different job. It's like these pharmacists that don't fill out BC prescriptions. If they have a problem dispensing hormones, then they should get a different job!

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 21, 2008 4:04 PM


"In each case, the families loved those girls and allowed God to decide when He would call them home."

amen Carla.

...when I first looked at Bethany's sketch, I though it was a black and white picture -great job again Bethany!

Posted by: jasper at February 21, 2008 4:13 PM


pip,

I think it is okay for doctors, especially OBs, to advertise that they are NFP only. Then patients will know that the doctor will not be prescribing birth control. That way no one is misled or has to violate their principles.

If we truly embrace diversity, then we can accept doctors who find a niche in their specialties without compromising their beliefs.

The main thing is honesty and respect.

Posted by: hippie at February 21, 2008 4:18 PM


Bethany, thanks for the encouragement. And your sketch is beautiful... :)

Posted by: Jill Stanek at February 21, 2008 4:20 PM


disagree pip
Contraception is why we now have the huge problem of abortion.
Not to mention that most BC pills have some abortifacient aspect to them.

Not that long ago, most Catholic doctors would not prescribe BC or nor would they help a woman destroy her unborn baby. It was not only a matter of ethics but it was also a matter of bad medicine. Catholic doctors always sought for a better solution and often with encouragement, women were brought through whatever difficulties were present.

It is completely disfunctional, unethical and IMO unprofessional for a Catholic doctor to practice medicine in this manner.

I think it is imperative that we do not force medical professionals to go against their conscience. Catholic doctors have just as much right as anyone else to practice medicine. So much for the "tolerant" left who are always harping on Catholics not forcing their view's on others!

Posted by: Patricia at February 21, 2008 4:21 PM


PIP,
Are you then for Catholic OB residents having to perform abortions and not be able to opt out of learing these techniques?

Posted by: Sandy at February 21, 2008 4:30 PM


Bethany,
You are amazing. Your drawing of little Isabel is beautiful!

Posted by: Sandy at February 21, 2008 4:32 PM


OT:
Jasper,
QotD is hysterical!

Thanks for the smile!

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2008 5:27 PM


Anon,

You make the common mistake that the hierarcy IS the Catholic Church. That is a oversimplification. There have been sinful hierarchy since the beginning, yet the Catholic Church is still around. The damage caused by such hierarchy haven't destroyed the Church, and they won't ever destroy the Church.

Posted by: Matthew at February 21, 2008 5:41 PM


You sat there and watched your dad suffer in a doomed situation for 5 months prior to him dying. You knew he was going to die. Why didn't you take a pillow and smother him to put him out of his misery.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Misery?
He had a self-controlled pain management system full of tasty opiates. He played cards and made long calls to old friends. He wasn't brain-dead. He didn't suffer. He chose to ride it out in style, and I'm pretty sure he ended it, just as I would.

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 21, 2008 6:07 PM


FF doesn't like 'em, cuz FF can't have 'em.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2008 3:41 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I can't?
Why not, because YOU said so?

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 21, 2008 6:08 PM


"What's the point of making someone carry a doomed pregnancy to term?...Suffering is bad"
-------------------------------------------
Soooo...what's wrong with letting nature take it's natural course?

Apparently, Laura, you have never heard of "Redemptive Suffering"...

Posted by: RSD at February 21, 2008 2:59 PM
.........................................

Is that like those people who intentionally cut themselves? i think they call that mental illness these days.

Posted by: Sally at February 21, 2008 7:09 PM


Hippie, I guess if someone wants to advertise NFP only, that is cool. The pill is used for other reasons besides birth control, but if they don't want to deal with any of that, they risk being able to help a wide variety of patients.
If "catholic" doctors don't want to work with birth control at all, a normal route would be doing something completely unrelated, like surgery. That way their consciences would be perfectly clear.

I disagree that birth control needs to be outlawed because it has caused the "abortions." That is a ridiculous statement. I have no problem with birth control being a personal choice-if you don't want to use it fine by me. People should be educated very well on the alternatives. But let's be serious. People will always have sex, so being informed about what they can do to avoid certain STIs and pregnancy is a GOOD THING. Of course, they should also know that when it fails, you have no right to kill the child. I think that is a decent agreement. It would be absolutely counterproductive if birth control were to be banned...not to mention practically impossible.

Sometimes OBs need to perform surgery that ends in a fetus' death so they should be aware and taught about what to do in these circumstances. I do not think they need to be trained to do voluntary abortions. Again if this is a large problem then the doctor in question is probably looking into the wrong field.

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 21, 2008 7:23 PM


You make the common mistake that the hierarcy IS the Catholic Church. That is a oversimplification. There have been sinful hierarchy since the beginning, yet the Catholic Church is still around. The damage caused by such hierarchy haven't destroyed the Church, and they won't ever destroy the Church.

Posted by: Matthew at February 21, 2008 5:41 PM

Matthew,
And pagans can make the same claim as you did. I really don't see your point, as my comments were in response to the article Jill wrote. If it would have been a mormon, protestant, or orthodox health care system, my comments would have been made accordingly.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2008 7:23 PM


Matthew,

I would also like to add that those who stand by watching or knowing something as horrible as this is going on, and have the means to stop it, but do absolutely NOTHING to do so, IMO, are just as guilty as the ones who are doing it.

As Patricia said in her 1:25pm post, "As a Catholic I can say that we cry to Rome for help and ask them to remove bishops who do not uphold the teachings of the church, all to no avail."

Doesn't this upset you in the least? At least Patricia was honest about it. If it were my church, I would be the biggest thorn in their side. I wouldn't give up.

Thank God we have Jill to stand up, as Bethany said in her 2:46 post, "Jill, you are so bold and so strong in what you do. God has blessed you greatly that way. I'm so thankful that you stand for what you know is right no matter what opposition comes your way. Thank you for standing up for these babies."

I'd also be willing to bet that if it were Jill's church, she'd be doing and saying the same, exact thing.


Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2008 7:45 PM


Misery?
He had a self-controlled pain management system full of tasty opiates. He played cards and made long calls to old friends. He wasn't brain-dead. He didn't suffer. He chose to ride it out in style, and I'm pretty sure he ended it, just as I would.

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 21, 2008 6:07 PM

Hard to understand how he wasn't suffering with you at his side for five months. However...

The babies who are diagnosed with fatal anomolies are in a the comfortable place in their mothers' womb riding it out. More mothers and fathers suffer because they make the decision or are directed by medical professionals to end their babies lives early.

Mothers and fathers that allow their babies to ride it out in style as your father did are always greatful for having the opportunity to hold and love their babies in their arms.

Posted by: Sandy at February 21, 2008 8:02 PM


Sandy,
psst...
he was on OPIATES! @ @

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2008 8:09 PM


PIP
BC and abortion go hand in hand. BC often fails and since people who use BC are generally not open to the possiblity of new life, there has to be some means to remove this "consequence" - hence abortion. Eventually, abortion is used more and more as BC - in fact, it becomes a form of BC.
In countries where the morning pill has been introduced, this is in fact what has happened. Instead of women using Plan B as an emergency contraception/abortifacient it becomes the method of contraception. This has happened especially in Britain.

Any OB/GYN worth their weight in gold will tell you that there is no valid medical reason to prescribe BC pills. This is a myth.

And it may come to the point, that some day, BC may be outlawed. Not because it's immoral but because politicians and demographers will wake up to an empty Europe, an North America. Our economic and cultural survival may well depend upon women doing what they were designed for - having a family.

Posted by: Patricia at February 21, 2008 8:18 PM


Hah, I can imagine living the end of my life souped up on opiates. I had some Percocet for a few days after my accident, and those things made me feel GOOD. That, to me, would be a perfectly acceptable way to end my life.

Posted by: Erin at February 21, 2008 8:48 PM


"Any OB/GYN worth their weight in gold will tell you that there is no valid medical reason to prescribe BC pills. This is a myth."

Bull. I'm on birth control for Poly-Cystic Ovarian Syndrome, without it I would be anemic from sadistically heavy periods that would last 2-3 weeks.

"Our economic and cultural survival may well depend upon women doing what they were designed for - having a family."

Not every woman has the desire nor the capacity for "having a family". I would consider myself one of them. Would I like to have one someday? Yeah, sure maybe. But will I? Probably not. Why? Because I *know* I would be a horrible mother.

Posted by: Ari-chan at February 21, 2008 8:56 PM


"BC and abortion go hand in hand. BC often fails and since people who use BC are generally not open to the possiblity of new life, there has to be some means to remove this "consequence" - hence abortion."
But that's only if you look at it like that. If you make a gamble with considerable odds but lose-you gotta deal with it.
You only think it goes hand in hand because abortion is available. Plenty of people go on birth control but keep the baby if pregnancy occurs.


"Eventually, abortion is used more and more as BC - in fact, it becomes a form of BC."
That's because it's legal and open to abuse.

"In countries where the morning pill has been introduced, this is in fact what has happened. Instead of women using Plan B as an emergency contraception/abortifacient it becomes the method of contraception. This has happened especially in Britain."
Then they should be educated on the effect of its regular use on the human body.

"Any OB/GYN worth their weight in gold will tell you that there is no valid medical reason to prescribe BC pills. This is a myth."
Then there are practically no OBs "worth their weight."

And it may come to the point, that some day, BC may be outlawed.
If its in my lifetime I would oppose it..but if it does...actually I don't want to imagine what would happen.

"Not because it's immoral but because politicians and demographers will wake up to an empty Europe, an North America. Our economic and cultural survival may well depend upon women doing what they were designed for - having a family."

Dude, it's not like women are being sterilized or anything. Enough "accidents" are already happening via improper use (or failure) of birth control, plus people that are intentionally starting families on their own, that especially when abortion is outlawed, we'd have enough people around. If we don't, come ask me for an apology and I will issue one.

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 21, 2008 9:01 PM


@PiP: BIRTH CONTROL IS GOING TO CAUSE THE END OF THE WORLD!! :)

Posted by: Ari-chan at February 21, 2008 9:07 PM


EVERYBODY RUN!!! lol

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 21, 2008 9:34 PM


PIP
yeah there's SOOOO many people having babies -- that's why the birth rate is a whopping 1.3 in most European countries and Canada!
BC leads to ABORTION. IT has to do with the contraceptive mentality.

"Plenty of people go on birth control but keep the baby if pregnancy occurs."
But plenty more don't - in fact so many that abortions number in the MILLIONS. And that's not counting the abortions which occur during the use of BC, which many women are not aware of.

AS for Ari-Chan - I have afriend who has PCOS and she's not on BC. YOu may be, but she's not. Since this condition is believed to have something to do with insulin resistence, many other drugs are used to treat it. BC is not generally necessary to treat menstrual problems, as many Catholic doctors can attest to.

Posted by: Patricia at February 21, 2008 9:36 PM


Mothers and fathers that allow their babies to ride it out in style as your father did are always greatful for having the opportunity to hold and love their babies in their arms.


Posted by: Sandy at February 21, 2008 8:02 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...And other parents are more than happy to end a doomed, nightmare pregnancy and start over. Isn't it great that they have a choice?

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 21, 2008 9:56 PM


@Patricia: Believe it or not, I was tested for insulin problems and other hormone problems and they were all negative. I need to have a certain number of periods a year to stay healthy, and by taking the pill I get that certain number of periods a year.

Posted by: Ari-chan at February 21, 2008 9:57 PM


Hard to understand how he wasn't suffering with you at his side for five months. However...

Posted by: Sandy at February 21, 2008 8:02 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gee, and now we know why your two fetuses chose the sweet relief of death rather than remain in your gritty uterus.

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 21, 2008 10:00 PM


"yeah there's SOOOO many people having babies -- that's why the birth rate is a whopping 1.3 in most European countries and Canada!"

Yeah...and they have abortion, too!

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 21, 2008 10:10 PM



...And other parents are more than happy to end a doomed, nightmare pregnancy and start over. Isn't it great that they have a choice?

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 21, 2008 9:56 PM

No. Unlike your father, these babies never had a choice.

Posted by: Sandy at February 21, 2008 10:19 PM


Gee, and now we know why your two fetuses chose the sweet relief of death rather than remain in your gritty uterus.

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 21, 2008 10:00 PM


I think we all need to say a prayer for FF.

Posted by: Sandy at February 21, 2008 10:35 PM


Sandy- normally, when FF says things like that, I wince and agree with you. But in this instance, you started it.

Posted by: Erin at February 21, 2008 11:17 PM


Once again FF rides in with her version of the happy death of her father.
Basically he was just a brain left in a rotting body that was dying with no hope of recovery.
No fatigue,sleepiness,memory disturbances,confusion, nausea,vomiting, and of course the old bug a boo of constipation from narcotics.
As usual, the story fits the agenda and lying about any matter is acceptable from FF.
Gee FF, pain increases in cancer until the narcotic becomes dangerous to the CNS functions.
In esssence, you killed him by either increasing the narcotic until pain was reliefed and the CNS did not function from the effects of the narcotic, or you let him die in with some amount of pain and delusion from being starved to death from not being able to eat.
It was slow, and a waste of time, or your lying about the condition of people with cancer being reduced to skin and bone, FF.
What a damnable joke you portrayed of death FF.
Which makes one question your story about your father's death. Nothing is beyond a lie if it fits the facts that FF wants to make into a truth.


Posted by: yllas at February 21, 2008 11:44 PM


BTW, FF.
When it comes around for you, from what went around in the past, and dues must be payed, to balance the past and present actions, will you be smart enough to recognize your past actions are being payed?
Or does your simple mind reject your own words which stated that "what goes around comes around", for yourself?


Posted by: yllas at February 22, 2008 12:25 AM


Not every woman has the desire nor the capacity for "having a family". I would consider myself one of them. Would I like to have one someday? Yeah, sure maybe. But will I? Probably not. Why? Because I *know* I would be a horrible mother.

Ari-Chan, shame on you. ;-)
That is not true at all. You have a huge heart, and I know you would be a wonderful mother.

I'm on birth control for Poly-Cystic Ovarian Syndrome, without it I would be anemic from sadistically heavy periods that would last 2-3 weeks.

That sounds terrible, Ari-Chan, and I'm sorry you have to deal with that. My sister has a similar problem...I don't think it's quite AS drastic, but it's close... one thing that worries me is the fact that birth control pill "periods" aren't really periods at all. That's just something that's always bothered me personally since I found that out (I used to wonder why my periods were SO light with the pill and now I know). I wonder if there is another way, an alternative which could help you without making them go away altogether. I've always felt like our periods are there for a reason. Take them away, and I think that puts us at great health risks.

The pill is supposed to prevent ovarian cancer, but at the same time, gives a greater risk of cervical cancer. That bothers me too...that's just one of my personal things against it.

One natural way to fight anemia is to eat lots of blackstrap molasses, raisins, and flax seeds. You can eat it in oatmeal or cream of wheat, and it should give you a pretty good percentage of natural iron.

Vitamin E and selenium supplements should enable your body to better utilize the iron in these foods.

Also, estrogen actually causes those painful fibroids to grow, at least according to this website and a few others I visited (that does include during pregnancy):
http://www.mothernature.com/Library/Bookshelf/Books/62/32.cfm

I don't know if this will be helpful to you or not, but I thought I'd post the info anyway.... It can't hurt, anyway. :)

Posted by: Bethany at February 22, 2008 7:52 AM



Sandy- normally, when FF says things like that, I wince and agree with you. But in this instance, you started it.

Posted by: Erin at February 21, 2008 11:17 PM

Erin,
I always appreciate your honesty. In this case however, I was mearly trying to make a point that Isabel meant as much to her family as her father meant to her. When she makes hurtful comments like the one she did above:

"Squeeze it out at 6mos. and watch it die, or squeeze it out at 9mos. and watch it die. What's the difference? Do you enjoy inflicting the extra physical and emotional punishment on the pregnant woman? Does that flood you with some sort of sick joy?
Suffering is bad."

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 21, 2008 2:21 PM

She deserves to be called on it. Why should someone she loves be off-limits to hurful comments. She has posted so many mean personal insults to women on this site who have lost a baby to miscarriage, or regret their abortions, or like the post above that was she drummed up directly after the link to Isabel's site was posted. She started it with the above post.
Sorry Erin, she deserved it.


Posted by: Sandy at February 22, 2008 8:26 AM


Dear Ari-Chan,
I have found the writing of Dr. John Lee very helpful. What Your Dr. May Not Tell You About Premenopause is one I have read over and over. There are several others. He is all about Natural Progesterone Cream which I have been taking for 5 years. If you are so inclined to take a look at a more natural approach, here is the website.
http://www.johnleemd.com/
God Bless!

Posted by: Carla at February 22, 2008 8:36 AM


She deserves to be called on it. Why should someone she loves be off-limits to hurful comments. She has posted so many mean personal insults to women on this site who have lost a baby to miscarriage, or regret their abortions, or like the post above that was she drummed up directly after the link to Isabel's site was posted. She started it with the above post.
Sorry Erin, she deserved it.

I agree, she deserved it. It was a response to her earlier posts, not a first strike. Sandy would have never said anything like that to Laura if Laura hadn't hurt so many people using that exact technique.
It may be vengeful of me, and I apologize for that, but I enjoyed seeing the shoe on the other foot for a change.

Posted by: Bethany at February 22, 2008 8:48 AM


Now suddenly everything is in bold print.

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 22, 2008 12:21 PM


That's odd...i'll see if I can figure out why.

Posted by: Bethany at February 22, 2008 12:33 PM


I can't seem to figure out where the error is.

Posted by: Bethany at February 22, 2008 12:36 PM


Okay, so the USCCB is aware of it, and gave the Catholic Church's position on it. So my question, is what are they going to do about it? This is reminding me so much of the molestation and rape in this religion being "shelved" for so many years.

This religion needs to do something about this QUICKLY, unless it hasn't learned one ounce of a lesson from it's previous hypocrisy.

Jill, did you write Providence back yet?
:)

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2008 1:04 PM

Unfortunately, the Catholic Church in North America (that includes Canada and the US) is considerably lacking in leadership from it's bishops. As a Catholic I can say that we cry to Rome for help and ask them to remove bishops who do not uphold the teachings of the church, all to no avail.

Posted by: Patricia at February 21, 2008 1:25 PM

With all due respect to Patricia and without knowing the specifics of her concerns, I must say that Patricia's opinions are her own, based on her experience, and no more representative of all Catholics than your opinions are representative of all Protestants.

I would also like to add that those who stand by watching or knowing something as horrible as this is going on, and have the means to stop it, but do absolutely NOTHING to do so, IMO, are just as guilty as the ones who are doing it.

Doesn't this upset you in the least? At least Patricia was honest about it. If it were my church, I would be the biggest thorn in their side. I wouldn't give up.

Posted by Anonymous 7:45

You have no idea how much the Catholic Church and its faithful have suffered, nor what has been done and continues to be done to resolve these problems within the Church and for those affected personally. In addition, you are not exactly in a place to be judging those involved as none of us are. Lord have mercy on us all.

You make the common mistake that the hierarcy IS the Catholic Church. That is a oversimplification. There have been sinful hierarchy since the beginning, yet the Catholic Church is still around. The damage caused by such hierarchy haven't destroyed the Church, and they won't ever destroy the Church.

Posted by: Matthew at February 21, 2008 5:41 PM

Matthew,
And pagans can make the same claim as you did. I really don't see your point, as my comments were in response to the article Jill wrote. If it would have been a mormon, protestant, or orthodox health care system, my comments would have been made accordingly.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2008 7:23 PM

Anonymous, go back and read your first comments on Jill's post. You quickly veered off topic to mention the recent scandal of the Catholic Church which is what Matthew is obviously referring to. Your disdain is obvious as I said before, and quite offensive to those who identify themselves as Catholic. Could we please discuss Jill's posts in the future without resorting to personal/religious insults? God bless you.

Posted by: Janet at February 22, 2008 12:41 PM


Bethany,
It looks like the change in the type style of the posts may have coincided with the "Update" which is also in BOLD face type. I think it was that way with the Italics problem a week or so ago. Maybe there is a way to keep the style change in the Update from "overflowing" to the post area? Put a normal character at the end of the update, like a period or something? Good luck!

Posted by: Janet at February 22, 2008 1:06 PM


Ok thanks, Janet! I'll check that out right now- didn't realize there was an update!

Posted by: Bethany at February 22, 2008 1:16 PM


That solved the problem! Thanks!!

Posted by: Bethany at February 22, 2008 1:18 PM


Anonymous, go back and read your first comments on Jill's post. You quickly veered off topic to mention the recent scandal of the Catholic Church which is what Matthew is obviously referring to. Your disdain is obvious as I said before, and quite offensive to those who identify themselves as Catholic. Could we please discuss Jill's posts in the future without resorting to personal/religious insults?

Jill's article reminds me EXACTLY of the hipocrisy I mentioned. It happened, Janet, and that's what it reminds me of. I'm sorry if this is offending you, but I'm entitled to my opinions and comments just as you are.

Again, I'll say that whatever religion it happens in, if the religion follows the teaching of Jesus Christ, I would find hypocrisy in it. I am truly sorry that your religion has gone through what it has, but that's its own fault, NOT MINE. If you don't like what I have to say about something, then don't read it. I don't read things here that uspet me, and I would encourage you to do the same.

Does what Jill mentioned in this article bother you at all? There is not ONE post from you mentioning what is going on in this healthcare system. I commend people like Patricia for being upset with this, and it's people like her that can bring change to this horrific situation. People that defend it and turn a blind eye to it are the people that will encourage it to continue, not end.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 22, 2008 1:20 PM


Why should a woman be forced to continue a doomed pregnancy? Because antichoicers think she should have to, thats why. Suffering is GOOD for her. It will "redeem" her. Carrying an anencephalic for three months will make her a 'stronger person'. She will be 'glad she did'. We're back to the sadistic misogyny so typical of antichoice arguments.

Posted by: TexasRed at February 22, 2008 1:44 PM


In each case, the families loved those girls and allowed God to decide when He would call them home.

Posted by: Carla at February 21, 2008 2:39 PM
****************
God decided they'd be anencephalic and have Potters ... what a considerate loving god.

Posted by: TexasRed at February 22, 2008 1:46 PM


And it may come to the point, that some day, BC may be outlawed. Not because it's immoral but because politicians and demographers will wake up to an empty Europe, an North America. Our economic and cultural survival may well depend upon women doing what they were designed for - having a family.

************************
You are so very full of scat.

Posted by: TexasRed at February 22, 2008 1:52 PM


You are on a roll today, TexasRed.

Posted by: Carla at February 22, 2008 1:54 PM


There are about 100,000,000 women in the US and over 4,000,000 births every year and thats only here - the human race is hardly 'in danger'.

http://www.poodwaddle.com/worldclock.swf


Compare the birth rate to the death rate.

Posted by: TexasRed at February 22, 2008 1:57 PM


Anonymous 1:20,

Does what Jill mentioned in this article bother you at all? There is not ONE post from you mentioning what is going on in this healthcare system. I commend people like Patricia for being upset with this, and it's people like her that can bring change to this horrific situation. People that defend it and turn a blind eye to it are the people that will encourage it to continue, not end.

Yes, of course it bothers me. That said, when TWO of the first FIVE posts attack the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, I feel compelled to address that first. Don't I have a right to be upset also?

This story in this post began in 2004. It is not news to me. I know that the USCCB has addressed this hospital issue before and now has to address it again. The situation is as awful now as ever. Forgive me if I am not angry with the bishops as you are. I think the outrage should be directed to the hospital's medical directors.

Jill's article reminds me EXACTLY of the hipocrisy I mentioned. It happened, Janet, and that's what it reminds me of. I'm sorry if this is offending you, but I'm entitled to my opinions and comments just as you are.

Again, I'll say that whatever religion it happens in, if the religion follows the teaching of Jesus Christ, I would find hypocrisy in it.

What does that mean?

Posted by: Janet at February 22, 2008 2:24 PM


Gosh, Janet. I've already explained myself on this, but I'll say it again:

If this story was about any other religion, other than the Catholic church, and they claimed to follow the teachings of Christ, I would have said that they were hypocritical also.

I'm not singling out the Catholic church here, but the story does have a very obvious connection to it. Maybe it's just me, though...

Posted by: Anonymous at February 22, 2008 3:11 PM


Anon,

Thanks for clarifying. When you include the word "claimed" the statement makes sense to me.

Posted by: Janet at February 22, 2008 3:20 PM


Yay!

:)

Posted by: Anonymous at February 22, 2008 3:32 PM



And it may come to the point, that some day, BC may be outlawed. Not because it's immoral but because politicians and demographers will wake up to an empty Europe, an North America. Our economic and cultural survival may well depend upon women doing what they were designed for - having a family.

Posted by: Patricia at February 21, 2008 8:18 PM

Not likely

More likely abortion would be outlawed.

Birth control is supported by 97% of the population

Abortion is only supported by about 50%

Iran decided to push birth control but abortion is only legal to save the mother's life.

They brought their birthrate down to 3.00 which is still growth.

Based on the reported rates of births and abortion, if abortion were illegal, Europe would be near steady state with a birth rate about 2.3.

Posted by: hippie at February 23, 2008 9:12 PM


I haven't read all of the comments above, just a few, but I really wanted to comment about the question of why someone should carry a 'doomed' baby or a baby that the medical community has stated will die after birth.

I must admit that as soon as I found out that our baby, Isabel Hope would die shortly after her birth, I was obviously devastated. The doctors told me I could go into labor anytime, OR go to full term. There was so much grief. Grieving for an event that had not happened yet. Something that was for the most part, inevitable. I wanted her to be born ASAP, just to get it over with. There was that feeling, that I just wanted it to happen and be over. But we grieved, and we also had the solid rock belief that nothing is impossible for God.

The doctors told us there was no chance for her to live, and we assumed for the most part, that they were right.

BUT GOD.

There was always that sense of ...but God. We knew without question that He had made Isabel. He could easily heal her before she was born. He could heal her after. Who can know the mind of God? No one. We would not dream of taking a chance to intervene and say "she's not going to live, therefore, let's kill her now in order to escape this situation we're in a little earlier." That was His (God's) place to decide when she would be born, how she would be born, and when she would die. Not ours.

Even though we never considered ending her life through an abortion or as the doctors offered to stop her heart with a saline solution and THEN induce labor, so I could give birth to only a dead baby, I have thought about it since.

It would NOT have made the situation easier. It might seem that it would, but it would have only added to our sadness and guilt. The end result would have been WORSE. Instead of honoring our daughter's life (she WAS and IS our daughter, a PERSON, my children's sister, someone we had prayed for and hoped for), to just dispose of her as soon as we heard she was not 'viable' would have been discarding the thought of her as a person, as all of those things I put in parentheses.


When you pass through the waters,
I will be with you;
and when you pass through the rivers,
they will not sweep over you.
When you walk through the fire,
you will not be burned;
the flames will not set you ablaze.

- Isaiah 43:2


There is a sense that if we could just end whatever is causing us the immediate pain, then it would be better. But it's a lie.

Of course I wanted to escape. But we were in the situation, there was no escape. It was time to deal with what was on our plate. God choose to walk with us through our tragedy, instead of whisking us out of it through a miracle. It is not my place to presume on God. He chose, and I accept His plan for not just my life, but so many others (my husband, my children, my parents, my sister, my niece & nephew and others).

We see life on such a small scale. He sees eternity.

We hear that a newborn baby has died and it is such a 'shame'. "What a waste of a life." But we just can't know what her life accomplished. I don't know and I don't honestly expect to until I am with Him.

But we will know someday in eternity what her life accomplished. In that day, we will be grateful to Him for His wisdom in working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to his purpose(Romans 8:28).

Isabel is safe with Him. I wanted to experience life with her, but I will have to wait. We all will.

The bottomline is that I trust my God. As painful as it was, I don't want to escape His plan for me. I want to learn and change and grow into the woman He wants me to be. He is the potter, and I am the clay.


My life is but a weaving
between my God and me,
I do not choose the colors,
He worketh steadily.
Oftimes He weaveth sorrow,
and I in foolish pride,
Forget He sees the upper,
and I the underside.

Not till the loom is silent,
and shuttles cease to fly,
Will God unroll the canvas
and explain the reason why.
The dark threads are as needful
in the skillful Weaver's hand
As the threads of gold and silver
in the pattern He has planned.

- Author Unknown

Posted by: Debra at February 26, 2008 11:22 AM


Debra, well said...that was beautiful.

Posted by: Bethany at February 27, 2008 10:12 PM


Debra,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and story. Isabel is a beautiful name. May God bless you and your family, today and always.

Posted by: Janet at February 29, 2008 8:43 PM