Heartbreaking to look at.

The hard part is finding six teeny-tiny pallbearers.

Almost forgot. I'm terribly sorry to hear about this man's loss.

He is so getting sued! Those are my cigar boxes. And one is my jewelry box. Bet he hasn't reserved space at the landfil ..... ooops.... built the mausoleum for little unborn/unsouled/unhumans or hired actors and writers to create moving testimony about their memories of the deceased embryos.
I am taking donations of Sucrets and Altoids tins. Send them to www/yourgestationalfailureismakegreatthimbles.org.

The hard part is finding six teeny-tiny pallbearers.

Posted by: FetusFascist at March 4, 2008 5:22 PM
......................

I bet that Bethany can find them.

I have no problem with this.

Even Dr. Tiller keeps a chaplain on site in case the patients want some kind of service for their fetuses.

EEEWWW, is it me or are y'all being cruel?

It's fine if they want to bury them. 0 weeks though? How do you know if you're pregnant before even a week? Unless you take the test a few days after every time you have sex.

$3.00 worth of materials and a half-hour of craftsmanship for $125.00?

Heck, I'm willing to rip the platic ballerina out of those pink music boxes for HALF that much: http://www.4specialtygifts.com/images/660555.jpg

Wow Jill, you just gave kudos to pro-choicers - France gives women the choice to name their embryo/fetus/zygote/baby if it is pre term and the Heaven's Gain guy gives women another marketplace option. Glad to see you're realizing choice is good.
BTW, it's not a ministry, it's a business.

Why do people put such emphasis on coffins anyway? You shouldn't be enjoying them, you should be dead in them.

$125 for a tiny wooden box?? I could get a couple dozen from Hobby Lobby for less than that.

This is a ministry? Like the man said, there's a sucker born every minute.

The pro-choicers on this site (with the exception of SoMG for once) are being effin' disrespectful and rude! You have no right to criticize parents/families who grieve a prenatal loss (whether it be a miscarriage, abortion, or stillbirth) and seek burial or any other form of resolution. You may not agree, but if you're truly pro-choice then you should respect these families decisions and mind your own business.

Heather: It isn't you. Posts about miscarriage seem to bring out the worst in a few prochoicers-namely FF and Sally.

Anon-

I'm not criticizing the parents and families. I'm criticizing the thief who is preying on their grief and charging them $125 for a box the size of my hand. What a scam, and shame on him.

These caskets are for couples who have lost a child due to miscarriage. Its not promoting abortion.

And these are made in the USA. The stuff sold at Hobby Lobby is most likely made in china.

Sally,
There'd be no need for "six teeny-tiny pallbearers" as a family may choose to have their own private ceremony in their home or spiritual enviroment of their choosing (in the outdoors and nature, a church, etc). Gosh, do you have no heart? Would you critize a grieving family if they shared they had a stillbirth of a much wanted child or their newborn baby had died?

Jess, Hieronymous, and phylosopher
I think that's obvious, and the point of listing starting at "0 weeks" is so that no one feels invalidated or excluded because of the early gestational age of their pregnancy (say if they were only 6 weeks). And you mine as well say the same to all of the funeral homes which charge upwards of $10,000 and up for caskets...

I do say the same thing about funeral homes. I have asked my family to make sure I'm cremated, and I've got an old Folger's can just waiting for my remains. It will look lovely with a little decoupage.

I'm not criticizing the parents and families. I'm criticizing the thief who is preying on their grief and charging them $125 for a box the size of my hand. What a scam, and shame on him.

Posted by: Hieronymous at March 4, 2008 6:42 PM

Please don't call grieving parents suckers.
Why do you think it's a scam?
People pay hundreds of dollars to have their pets' cremated, and buried in a plot that cost them hundreds of dollars.

Do you think all of the casket manufacturers are a scam? Do you call the cremation societies scam artist? Do you think that people should be dumped in a land fill, or thrown over a boat into the ocean?

"I do say the same thing about funeral homes. I have asked my family to make sure I'm cremated, and I've got an old Folger's can just waiting for my remains. It will look lovely with a little decoupage."

LOVE IT!

"That is our most modestly priced receptacle"

Sandy, I think it's a scam because it's a scam. A little box and some cloth like that, bought in bulk, costs about $3, and that's a generous estimate.

Some dude saw Jill's post and saw an opportunity to do a little marketing. And because it happens to jive with your particular fetish, you all are ooohing and aaaahhing over it and calling it a "ministry" as if ripping people off has anything to do with ministering.

"That is our most modestly priced receptacle"

Posted by: prettyinpink at March 4, 2008 7:07 PM

ROFL ROFL ROFL!!!! The Big Lebowski! We just watched that again the other night. I frickin' love that movie.

RFF,
Are you sure you remembered to scoop up the dog &%it out of the kennels before you left work today?

All your fancy degrees and all that money spent on your fancy education just take a low level, low paying job cleaning up animal #@it everday. No wonder you come across so angry all the time.

RFF,
Are you sure you remembered to scoop up the dog &%it out of the kennels before you left work today?

All your fancy degrees and all that money spent on your fancy education just take a low level, low paying job cleaning up animal #@it everday. No wonder you come across so angry all the time.

Posted by: Sandy at March 4, 2008 7:11 PM

Pot, kettle, etc.

"And because it happens to jive with your particular fetish..."

It has nothing to do with a fetish, which is just an immature insult, but rather we're but rather with acknowleding these women's grief and beliefs of what they feel they lost. Well isn't choice about respecting other's decisions, feelings, and beliefs, because all I see is mocking and insults.

"And because it happens to jive with your particular fetish..."

It has nothing to do with a fetish, which is just an immature insult, but rather we're but rather we're acknowleding and respecting these women's grief and beliefs of what they feel they lost and their decision in how they want to grieve and find resolution. Well isn't choice about respecting other's decisions, feelings, and beliefs, because all I see is mocking and insults.

Pot, kettle, etc.

Posted by: Hieronymous at March 4, 2008 7:12 PM
Excuse me?

He is so getting sued! Those are my cigar boxes. And one is my jewelry box. Bet he hasn't reserved space at the landfil ..... ooops.... built the mausoleum for little unborn/unsouled/unhumans or hired actors and writers to create moving testimony about their memories of the deceased embryos.
I am taking donations of Sucrets and Altoids tins. Send them to www/yourgestationalfailureismakegreatthimbles.org.

Posted by: Sally at March 4, 2008 5:36 PM
Sally,
Does it really make you happy to laugh and joke at the expense of those who have lost babies due to miscarriage and may want to honor them?

Pot, kettle, etc.

Excuse me?

Posted by: Sandy at March 4, 2008 7:15 PM

See, there's this phrase that most people have heard. It goes something like "that's the pot calling the kettle black." And what it means is that there's a person (the "pot") criticizing another person (the "kettle") for one of the kettle's qualities, when in fact, it is the pot who is demonstrating that quality. Kind of like when you accuse FF of "sounding angry all the time."

Heck, I'm willing to rip the platic ballerina out of those pink music boxes for HALF that much: http://www.4specialtygifts.com/images/660555.jpg

Posted by: FetusFascist at March 4, 2008 6:09 PM

Is this what you wound up burying your father in when he died? Sad. Really sad.

See, there's this phrase that most people have heard. It goes something like "that's the pot calling the kettle black." And what it means is that there's a person (the "pot") criticizing another person (the "kettle") for one of the kettle's qualities, when in fact, it is the pot who is demonstrating that quality. Kind of like when you accuse FF of "sounding angry all the time."

Posted by: Hieronymous at March 4, 2008 7:27 PM

Yeah, H. I get the phrase. If you follow the posts you see it doesn't really apply here.

I guess you also have selective reading and comprehension when it comes to the PC posts on this site.

Yeah Sandy, my reading comprehension skills are obviously lacking when I mistake your anger for...anger.

LOL I LOVE that movie. So classic.

"Donnie...who loved bowling."

"What the f*** does anything have to do with Vietnam?!"

Ever have a Big Lebowski party? We make white russians and order pizza while listening to the soundtrack, and then watch the Big Lebowski, sometimes twice in a row.

That's what we did too! It was awesome. I got a bottle of Kahlua and some half and half, and we went to town with the Big Lebowski. That's got to be my favorite John Goodman role of all time.

I cheat with my white russians though, I don't put any vodka in, so it's really just kahlua and cream.

H,

Anger has nothing to do with the context of your analogy.

Goodman is so brilliant in that role.

No cheating allowed! What would the "your dudeness" say? ;)

Sandy, let me provide you with your own words, the better to eat them with:

No wonder you come across so angry all the time.

Posted by: Sandy at March 4, 2008 7:11 PM

Then I made the pot/kettle analogy, about you accusing FF of sounding angry.

Just to be sooooper clear, your words above about FF being "angry" came right after you said this:

RFF,
Are you sure you remembered to scoop up the dog &%it out of the kennels before you left work today?

All your fancy degrees and all that money spent on your fancy education just take a low level, low paying job cleaning up animal #@it everday.

I was just pointing out the rather rich irony of you, of all people, especially after such language! calling someone else angry.

Huh. That second to last paragraph should have been in italics. Haven't quite gotten the hang of this html tag thingie.

No cheating allowed! What would the "your dudeness" say? ;)

Posted by: prettyinpink at March 4, 2008 7:53 PM

Hey, he made one with powdered creamer in the movie! I think I can get away with no vodka :-)

$3.00 worth of materials and a half-hour of craftsmanship for $125.00?

Heck, I'm willing to rip the platic ballerina out of those pink music boxes for HALF that much: http://www.4specialtygifts.com/images/660555.jpg

Posted by: FetusFascist at March 4, 2008 6:09 PM
....................................
Noooooooooooooo! Not the ballerinas!

The hard part is finding six teeny-tiny pallbearers.

How can you say that Fetus Fascist? Have you never had a miscarriage? Have you never lost someone you loved? You seem pretty inconsiderate of those who have lost a child by natural circumstances.

He is so getting sued! Those are my cigar boxes. And one is my jewelry box. Bet he hasn't reserved space at the landfil ..... ooops.... built the mausoleum for little unborn/unsouled/unhumans or hired actors and writers to create moving testimony about their memories of the deceased embryos.
I am taking donations of Sucrets and Altoids tins. Send them to www/yourgestationalfailureismakegreatthimbles.org.

Posted by: Sally at March 4, 2008 5:36 PM
Sally,
Does it really make you happy to laugh and joke at the expense of those who have lost babies due to miscarriage and may want to honor them?

Posted by: Sandy at March 4, 2008 7:19 PM
.....................................
I've had a miscarriage. My oldest sister has had 6. I'm at a loss at understanding why anyone would feel a need to honor a miscarriage. We certainly know that the miscarriages prevented the possibility of babies from those pregnancies.

Hieronymous,

I'll let that slide, this time. *looks at you skeptically* lol

Why do you skip the vodka, btw? Isn't that what makes the white russian? Otherwise isn't it just a mudslide without the chocolate?

"I'm at a loss at understanding why anyone would feel a need to honor a miscarriage."

It doesn't matter how you feel, it's the feelings, experiences, and beliefs of the individul women and their partners who matter.

Maybe we could all respect each other and let each deal with the loss of a miscarriage in our own way.
And not criticize and disrespect each other.

"And these are made in the USA. The stuff sold at Hobby Lobby is most likely made in china."

Why don't you want to buy from China?

I think most things related to funerals, namely coffins, are a rip off. I mean, I believe when you die your soul leaves your body so it doesn't matter what you're buried in. It seems like a waste to me to spend $10,000 on a coffin when they could be buried or cremated for much less and the money given to the family or a related charity. When my hamsters die I like to donate something in their name to an animal shelter.

I like the idea of "green cemeteries" myself

I've had a miscarriage. My oldest sister has had 6. I'm at a loss at understanding why anyone would feel a need to honor a miscarriage. We certainly know that the miscarriages prevented the possibility of babies from those pregnancies.

Posted by: Sally at March 4, 2008 8:03 PM

You claim to be pro-choice right? Because it's the woman's choice to honor and bury her baby.
I am at a loss for why anyone would kill their baby through an abortion. So here we are.

Why do you skip the vodka, btw? Isn't that what makes the white russian? Otherwise isn't it just a mudslide without the chocolate?

Posted by: prettyinpink at March 4, 2008 8:11 PM

I think it's because I like the thickness of the drink without the vodka. It just tastes creamier. ....and now I think I'll start adding the chocolate and just call it a mudslide. Hmmmm. I'm an apostate.

I think mudslides have Bailey's in it too. And then to make it super rich add in some vanilla ice cream...

Sandy, let me provide you with your own words, the better to eat them with:

No wonder you come across so angry all the time.

Posted by: Sandy at March 4, 2008 7:11 PM

Then I made the pot/kettle analogy, about you accusing FF of sounding angry.

Just to be sooooper clear, your words above about FF being "angry" came right after you said this:

RFF,
Are you sure you remembered to scoop up the dog &%it out of the kennels before you left work today?

All your fancy degrees and all that money spent on your fancy education just take a low level, low paying job cleaning up animal #@it everday.

I was just pointing out the rather rich irony of you, of all people, especially after such language! calling someone else angry.

Posted by: Hieronymous at March 4, 2008 7:53 PM

H,

Let's try this one more time.

I am not eating anything. My point is that theeese people come to this site to vent their snide and mean spirited comments directed at people who experience misfortune in their lives.

Theeessseee people come here looking for someone to pick on and bully and make fun of. That's what angry people do.

I don't seek out others to vent on. My comments are responding to the hurtful spiteful statements flung on this site with no regard for the feelings of people they may hurt.

I would be a pot if.......
I were a person who would seek out say... a blog for families who has a loved one dying or have died cancer and make fun of those people for reasons surrounding their situation.

If I did, I would certainly think you would agree that responses that may include anger would be in order.

Get it now?

I've had a miscarriage. My oldest sister has had 6. I'm at a loss at understanding why anyone would feel a need to honor a miscarriage. We certainly know that the miscarriages prevented the possibility of babies from those pregnancies.

Posted by: Sally at March 4, 2008 8:03 PM

You claim to be pro-choice right? Because it's the woman's choice to honor and bury her baby.
I am at a loss for why anyone would kill their baby through an abortion. So here we are.

Posted by: Sandy at March 4, 2008 8:26 PM
........................

I'm an old chick. I don't believe a baby exists the moment you become pregnant just because you young uns believe in instant everything. Nothing works that way. Certainly not baby making. And there you are. Instant Karma's going to get you. Slap you right in the face.

We aren't making fun of you or your grief we are just saying that this seems like a scam to us. This man shouldn't be profiting from your lose.

Oh Sandy, I totally get it. YOUR anger is justified, right? YOUR snide and mean-spirited comments are justified, right? YOUR petty references to feces are justified, right? Uh huh....

I think this is the point where you're supposed to step back and ask what Jesus would do, isn't it? Doesn't it say "for thou shall be a mean-spirited c**t in response to people who make thee mad, and then, thou shalt pretend to occupy a moral highground" somewhere in Mark or Luke?

"I've had a miscarriage. My oldest sister has had 6. I'm at a loss at understanding why anyone would feel a need to honor a miscarriage."

Well, an unborn child is a human being, a person Sally. I bet you were sad when you had you lost your baby by miscarriage, weren't you?.

"All your fancy degrees and all that money spent on your fancy education just take a low level, low paying job cleaning up animal #@it everday."

So all the people should abandon missionary work, seminarian work, social work and so on if they could be making more money? So Mother Teresa was a fool because she probably could have married some rich old man when she was young and been taken care of her whole life, not working or helping anyone. You are the petty selfish one.

I like the idea of "green cemeteries" myself

Posted by: prettyinpink at March 4, 2008 8:20 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ain't nuthin' greener that this. It's where I'm going when I die. (I'm hoping to be set on fire, stuffed into a trunk and rolled into a lake.)

http://www.squidoo.com/thebodyfarm

Oh Sandy, I totally get it. YOUR anger is justified, right? YOUR snide and mean-spirited comments are justified, right? YOUR petty references to feces are justified, right? Uh huh....

H,
Yes you get it yeahhhhhh!!!!!!!!

Yes, my anger (if that's what you read it as) is justified by the PCer comments on this site!!!!!! I tend to think it's more of a snarky type of response, but I am just so glad you finally agree.

I think this is the point where you're supposed to step back and ask what Jesus would do, isn't it? Doesn't it say "for thou shall be a mean-spirited c**t in response to people who make thee mad, and then, thou shalt pretend to occupy a moral highground" somewhere in Mark or Luke?

I think you need to study the bible more. I don't ever remember reading anything like that.
Sorry, I can't help you out there.

Yeah, I was pretty sure you couldn't help me out on Jesus-like behavior, but thanks anyway Sandy!

lol FF I think you might be right!

Seems such an odd avenue to take when "donating your body to science"...but probably helpful nonetheless

Grief is personal. No one grieves in the same way over the same things. I have had two miscarriages and although I probably wouldn't have bought a casket for them, I think there are people that would. If it helps them grieve I think it's fine. If people don't want them, they won't buy them.
I have seen a casket for a one year old girl. Is that a "scam" too?

"I've had a miscarriage. My oldest sister has had 6. I'm at a loss at understanding why anyone would feel a need to honor a miscarriage."

Well, an unborn child is a human being, a person Sally. I bet you were sad when you had you lost your baby by miscarriage, weren't you?.

Posted by: jasper at March 4, 2008 8:52 PM
................................

No I wasn't. I got big girl panties before you were born. Pregnancy is a toss up. Sometimes chicken, sometimes feathers. You lose your bet and owe me. Auntie Uma will be around to collect.

Hi honey, I'm home!!!

:)

Wow! And I thought things were getting heated on the weekend thread!

I think these caskets are very reasonably priced. $35.00 is too much??? I'd send the man $70.00 & tell him to keep the change! What a very nice service to those in want of it!
The $125.00 ones fit into the vault. Some people only want the best for their child, and when their child passes away, they want the best for them then, also. I think it's a wonderful ministry to reach out to those in need and provide a classy way of doing it.

What is wrong with someone making a profit? Doesn't their time count for anything?

So all the people should abandon missionary work, seminarian work, social work and so on if they could be making more money? So Mother Teresa was a fool because she probably could have married some rich old man when she was young and been taken care of her whole life, not working or helping anyone. You are the petty selfish one.

Posted by: Jess at March 4, 2008 9:01 PM

No Jess, I don't think anyone should abandon missionary work, seminary work, or social work. I admire people greatly who give up their lives to help others and expect nothing back for the favor.

My comments were directed soley at RFF.

"I have seen a casket for a one year old girl. Is that a "scam" too?"

I just don't get why someone would pay $10,000 for something you don't even get to enjoy because you're dead. I mean, I can see over spending on a wedding dress, at least you get to enjoy it. Honestly give me the $10,000 now and leave me in a log with PIP and FF and we're all good.

"What is wrong with someone making a profit? Doesn't their time count for anything?"

It depends what they're trying to sell you. You guys always complain about the money the people at PP make.

"No I wasn't. I got big girl panties before you were born."

LOL!

..com'on Sally, open up a little, you had to be a little sad after you lost your child. Let down your guard a bit.

Jess,
Oh. HUGE difference there! Shall I count the ways?

"I admire people greatly who give up their lives to help others and expect nothing back for the favor."

She's working to help animals. She isn't getting much back, you've said so yourself. But I'm sure the animals enjoy being clean and taken care of.

Honestly give me the $10,000 now and leave me in a log with PIP and FF and we're all good.

Posted by: Jess at March 4, 2008 9:19 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am THERE!

JLM, would you want your family spending more money then they need on you after you die? Wouldn't you rather take that money now and do something nice with them? Cash in your life insurance policy and take your family Florida for a week.

Lol, FF. The three of us wake up in a log tomorrow. "This is what we wanted!"

Hi Jess,
My friends wanted to place their daughter in a casket, in their family plot with a beautiful headstone. They could afford it and they bring their living children to visit their sisters gravesite. They honor her short life in this way.

Personally? I want all of my organs donated, cremate me and scatter my ashes to the wind.

Carla, good for them and good for you. It's nice having a family plot.

We aren't making fun of you or your grief we are just saying that this seems like a scam to us. This man shouldn't be profiting from your lose.

Posted by: Jess at March 4, 2008 8:48 PM

Jess,
Seriously. Read the posts again. Women and families who miscarry are certainly being made fun of.

Families are seeking this type of burial casket
ALL THE TIME for their lost little ones. There aren't that many places where families can go to find items that will help them through the process of greiving and burying their babies.

Why do you think families who experience a pregnancy loss are getting scammed??

I know a woman who lost her daughter as a stillborn. They were pretty young at the time and didn't have much money. Her and her husband needed to find a casket to bury her in.

Her husband went and bought the most expensive casket he could find. My friend was upset because they really couldn't afford it. They talked about it and he said he just felt so bad that he would never be able to buy her a bike, or a fancy dress, or pay for her wedding. He just needed to buy something really nice for her.

Sandy,
Maybe they could have bought toys for children in orphanages or donated money to a children's hospital in her name so more children would be happy and she would live forever in their hearts for the joy she brought.

Jess, FF, I'll see you all there! Sounds like a party ;)

Jess,
Please allow people to grieve in ways that you disagree with. Honestly.

JLM, would you want your family spending more money then they need on you after you die? Wouldn't you rather take that money now and do something nice with them? Cash in your life insurance policy and take your family Florida for a week.

Heck no...I'm going in the rapture!!!

Anyway...if I die, they can do with me what they want. I already told my family to find the least expensive way of doing it, and then do it. I won't care. I'm dead. I'm leaning towards cremation. I heard it's cheap. Other family members want to put me on one of those shuttles so I can orbit in space forever. HA! Whatever floats their boat!

If they want to spend the big bucks on a funeral, well, so be it. Whatever makes them heal faster and grieve (if that happens) less.
I hope they don't spend any money, though.

"Please allow people to grieve in ways that you disagree with. Honestly."

They can do what they want I just wanted to offer some suggestions people might find helpful.

JLM, maybe the rapture already happened and none of us were good enough to go : / crimidy : (

PIP = 454 million points for the Lebowski shout out! =)

And just like the rest of the death business (yes, it is a business) this is a rip off, and this man should be ashamed of himself - as should anyone trying to convince grieving people to spend absurd amounts of money on pretty boxes to bury in dirt.

I'd take a Folgers can and a send off from The Dude ANY DAY over knowing my family got ripped off by some con man feigning compassion for their loss.

(sorry - that was me)

"No I wasn't. I got big girl panties before you were born."

LOL!

..com'on Sally, open up a little, you had to be a little sad after you lost your child. Let down your guard a bit.

Posted by: jasper at March 4, 2008 9:22 PM
....................

What guard jasper? Your inability to land a shot isn't due to me.
I have never lost a child. I have lost the possibility of a child. Not quite the same. Being shallow of mind you would miss the blatant and obvious difference.

Honey, I have been nothing but completely honest. You haqve done the same. You are an abusive and I
Open up a little? What do you not understand about unvarnished honesty?
No dimwit, I wasn't a little sad over miscarrying. I was lucky to be alive. Why do I think that my kids are older than you and a great deal happier, educated, and accomplished?
I've never 'lost' a child little boy. My children are alive and well. I have misplaced them on occasion.

"Grief is personal. No one grieves in the same way over the same things. I have had two miscarriages and although I probably wouldn't have bought a casket for them, I think there are people that would. If it helps them grieve I think it's fine. If people don't want them, they won't buy them.
I have seen a casket for a one year old girl. Is that a "scam" too?"

Posted by: Carla at March 4, 2008 9:11

Sounds like a prochoice post! It's "personal" and the parent's choice!
In sympathy and kindness the various ways people handle their grief is fine, as long as those same folks extend the same privacy and sympathy to others who cope with situations differently.

As for making a profit - no problem with the limited liability corporation doing what corporations are legally obligated to do - turn a profit; the problem was Jill's attempt to co-opt what is obviously a profit making business into an anti-choice "ministry."

As for the baby casket (and other funeral "services") no problem either, as long as the family is spending within their comfort zone and isn't feeling pressured to overspend. Some funeral homes claim (falsely) that the corpse can't legally be buried without embalming (corpse mutilation)or a vault, or public viewing which raises the price up exponentially. Or they play on the grief and guilt of the bereaved - "don't you want the best for your son, daughter father, mother" as JLM implied - if one is aat the funeral home, the son, duaghter etc. is gone -it is a corpse. Some poor families actually take out loans to pay for these non-necessities! In other cases, the funeral home plays up the natural processes of decay as if it would be some sort of tragedy to the corpse.

For a refreshing look at American Death rituals, check out Point of View's show, "A Family Undertaking." Jess, FF, Hiero, I think you will appreciate it.

PM

Dang people, I think we all need to take a cleansing breath. I leave to go to biology class and all hell breaks loose.

The caskets make me sad...mostly cause I think people that small should never have to be in them. They should be alive and smiling and learning how to walk, talk, and love life. My brother was buried in one of those. :( He was DEFINITELY a person. A very special one at that. I miss him and wonder what he would have been like. We were very similar looking babies.

Thanks Amanda ;)

Ever visit "BABYLAND" at cemeteries? So sad.

The point a lot of critics are missing is that these are specifically caskets, built to look like caskets.

Parents of stillborn babies or preemies who died often lament that the only thing that fits their child to dress them for burial is doll clothes, and their children were not dolls, they were real.

Yeah, you could put the baby in a jewelry box. But it wasn't a necklace. You can put the baby in any sort of box. But parents who are grieving the loss of a child want to bury the child in a recognizable coffin, not a coffee can.

That said, I do think the prices might be a little steep but I don't know how much the wood costs.

Christina,

Yeah, you could put the baby in a jewelry box. But it wasn't a necklace. You can put the baby in any sort of box. But parents who are grieving the loss of a child want to bury the child in a recognizable coffin, not a coffee can.

Amen!

So if I choose to buy a coffin for a baby that I miscarried I am prochoice? Thanks for the laugh, Phylosopher.

More deathsex is confirmed in the bigoted, deathsex family klan of Sally. Six for the sister, one for her, and of course Sally's mother and grandmother,great grandmother, ad infinitum.
The time to hesitate is through
No time to wallow in the mire
Try now Sally we can only lose
And our love become a funeral pyre.
Sally, the incubator of death, with no emotion from hundreds of years of being a deathsex bigoted anti Catholic kult klan family.
Admit it Sally, your mother fed you Mexican yams since she detested the male you were with as she detested all those males she had deathsex with.

Christina, well said.

phylosopher, you read into things too much.

Carla:

Are you really that stupid or just being intentionally obtuse?

But, since you can't seem to connect the dots on your own:

"Grief is personal" = how one views the contents of one's uterus is personal - baby or "crotch goo."

If people don't want them, they won't buy them" = what has been said by prochoicers for years.

Your whole post was all about defneding personal choice.

You do not know the difference between a child dying naturally in your womb and having an abortionist vacuum a child out? Yep, I must be stupid.

"So if I choose to buy a coffin for a baby that I miscarried I am prochoice? Thanks for the laugh, Phylosopher."

You said you choose so yes, you are pro-choice.

I chose cereal for breakfast. I must be prochoice.

"I chose cereal for breakfast. I must be prochoice."

Yes. You choose cereal. No one sat you down and said, "You have to eat this cereal." Even if you never ate cereal, but supported others decision for choosing what cereal to eat you would be pro-choice. You could also refer to yourself as pro-cereal.

So grab a spoon Carla and dig in!!!!!!!

On the subject of abortion I am prolife.

On the subject of cereal I am prochoice.

I love you, Jess. :)

Like they say...funerals are not for the dead, they're for the living left behind. Whatever the living want to do, or spend, or say, or believe to bring themselves comfort following the death of a loved one is their prerogative. And anyone who wants to start a business, ministry, whatever...to fill their needs has my wholehearted support.

Man, for a bunch of folks who supposedly believe in "choice", you sure are a judgmental pack of snarling hyenas. Back off, wouldja?

"No dimwit, I wasn't a little sad over miscarrying. I was lucky to be alive. Why do I think that my kids are older than you and a great deal happier, educated, and accomplished? "

Sally, I doubt your kids are 40 yrs old. And I'm not as dumb and unaccomplished as you think I am.

I am prochoice when it comes to cereal too.

And I'm pro-cereal..I think it should be eaten at every meal lol.

To posters offended by remarks to RFF:

I wanted to post something this morning to clarify my statements towards RFF and her job since it appears I am coming across in a manner that makes me look disrespectful to those who make a living at service orientated jobs.

Do I believe what I write in my posts to her regarding her job? Absolutely not.

She is so keen on sticking it to people where she knows where it matters most to them and in such a superior way and with so much hurt it just angers me.

My posts were to attack something that she obviously cares about.I want her to feel the hurt when someone goes after something that she obviously cares about. So I chose to go after her job.

I have no reason in my life to judge anyone for the jobs they hold. I grew up on a cattle farm which in addition to daily chores included many hard laborious tasks I was happy to do. I bailed hay in the summers, herded cattle, helped put up an 80 acre fence line, cleaned barns and helped vets with inoculations, breeding and calving.
My family also bailed hay and sent it down to farms in the south to those who were hit hardest by drought so their animals would be fed for the winters.
I was always grateful to the vets, their techs and assistants for coming to the rescue of hurt and sick animals my family grew to love.

I also stepped in many cow pies along the way.

My intent was not to attack THE job, just her personal attachment to her job, just as she feels free to attack people on this site for issues that matter most to them.

Say, speaking of ripping out ballerinas, does anyone know how many ballerinas have been ripped out of their mothers' wombs and deliberately, brutally slaughtered by so-called advocates of "choice"?

Hmmmmm, let's see: some 55 million babies have suffered that unjust, needless and senseless fate since Roe v. Wade. That is the equivalent of the combined populations of about 18 states; so it would seem fair enough to find out how many ballerinas there are in those states, and you'd have a pretty close estimate. (Or painters, writers, singers, pianists, athletes, doctors (real ones, who preserve human life instead of attacking it), nurses, pathologists, police officers, educators, attorneys, servers, cashiers, delivery drivers, taxi drivers, receptionists, security guards (real ones, who guard other interests than death camps), maids/janitors, construction workers, postmen/women, pest control workers, landscapers, architects, contractors, veterinarians, poopscoopers, etc...one can get a pretty close estimate.

Now there is usually SOMEONE to grieve the loss of these folks who have realized their potential and opportunity after they pass away; how much more grievous is it to have never had that opportunity due to weak hormones or other causes of spontaneous abortion, and how outrageous it is to deliberately deprive the most innocent of their lives, and society of their likely contributions.

Anyone who equates eating cereal with committing premeditated, cold-blooded murder as abortion does not deserve to be taken seriously as a thinking, humane being.

Oh wait, let's see, he also wanted to provide free caskets for the 3 mothers he knew of via Jill's website. Yeah, that sounds a heartless scoundrel to me...(and if you believe that, I know some real ones who'd just love to sell you land, bridges, etc.)

There are other heartless scoundrels, too; many of them sell abortions.

jtm,
I know exactly what abortion is and what it does. I had one. I regret it.

The cereal comment was in reference to phylosopher. I wouldn't "choose" a tiny casket, but some people might "choose" one. He/she claimed I must be prochoice then. I am not.
I am prolife.

My posts were to attack something that she obviously cares about.I want her to feel the hurt when someone goes after something that she obviously cares about. So I chose to go after her job.

Please, Sandy, consider yourself above such behavior. Wanting to make someone, ANYONE, feel hurt is wrong and unChristian. I will pray for you.

Oh wait, let's see, he also wanted to provide free caskets for the 3 mothers he knew of via Jill's website. Yeah, that sounds a heartless scoundrel to me...(and if you believe that, I know some real ones who'd just love to sell you land, bridges, etc.)

Posted by: jtm at March 5, 2008 1:42 PM

jtm - that's called marketing. Not ministering. He found a fairly high-profile case that fits his target audience, and offered a goodie bag, probably hoping to get free advertising out of it. You know, kind of like the free advertising he got here.

Anyone who equates eating cereal with committing premeditated, cold-blooded murder as abortion does not deserve to be taken seriously as a thinking, humane being.

JTM,

To imply that we were equating eating cereal to an abortion is just silly. That is not what we were talking about AT ALL. It was a joke made and then I made a joke about that joke. The fact that we can joke around is what helps ALL of us get along (for the most part). Lighten up.

jtm - that's called marketing. Not ministering. He found a fairly high-profile case that fits his target audience.
Posted by: Hieronymous at March 5, 2008 3:21 PM

You mean like PP plunking down their mills smack in the middle of minority areas?

and offered a goodie bag

Are you kidding me? "Yep, here's some goodies for when you bury your baby."Ugh...

You act like there's something wrong with people making money. There isn't. Lots of people enjoy teaching children...that doesn't mean they'd do it for FREE. They're not stupid, they need to eat too. But if they can help someone get over their loss a little bit easier, the fact that they get paid for it doesn't make them a "scam-artist."

I guess we should call everybody who gets paid to help other people scam artists...doctors, nurses, teachers..cause they're NOT just doing it out of the good of their hearts either you know...they're doing it cause they can make money doing it.

To H, et al; Not even close, so no cigar here. I've known of too many people who've lost children to miscarriage, and found any service touching on a physical funeral/burial/memorial much more helpful than not being able to find such goods and services.

Btw yes, H, I've heard of marketing. I even have flush toilets and running water in my house, read, write, work and wear shoes. If Jill could have given him the information he asked for, I'm guessing those women (like you care) would have considered it ministry. And while I think I'd price them a little lower (not so low, though, as to cheapen what they represent to the mourners), if he sells any of them to grieving moms as a result of the publicity, I can guarantee you that his clients will still consider it more of a ministry than your calloused and continual efforts at denying their loss and dissing their grief.

Getting back on track, then, how many real ballerinas live in your state? Or how many born in your state since Roe have gone on to careers elsewhere? Any idea?

Elizabeth, I think that was kind of the motive behind the language of "choice", to make it seem as harmless and legitimate as choosing cereal over toast...ask Dr. Nathanson! Cheers!

Well, JTM...it was a joke...and I'm pro-life...but since cereal isn't alive..I'm all about choice for cereal.

Come on, laugh a little.

jtm and elizabeth,
I really was kidding about the cereal. I figured that was obvious. Well, to some. :)
The word "choice" is used in so many ridiculous ways I thought I would add one more. Pro cereal.

Abortion is no laughing matter to me.

Abortion is no laughing matter to me either.
A miscarriage is no laughing matter either.
It is a very painful experience and I am
glad that someone is making caskets available.
It gives the parents a choice if they do want
to buy one and bury their child. I respect those
parents if they want to bury their child. I
buried mine and it was painful. It gave me peace.

It gave me peace knowing where my child was.
And is today.

If somebody wants a casket, what's the big deal?

I don't know if it's the casket that bothers people so much as the fact that prolifers believe it's a baby. When a baby dies and you want to put it in a casket that kind of blows the whole "tissue, clump of cells, blob" conversation.

Let me change something.
I believe it's a BABY. When my BABY died I would have liked to buy a casket for my BABY. I would have felt better having my BABY in a casket to bury him. I love my BABY. I miss my BABY. I held that BABY in my hand.

I wouldn't buy a tiny casket for a clump of cells.

I wouldn't buy a tiny casket for a clump of cells.

Carla, I think that by 4 or 5 weeks it doesn't look like a clump of cells. Personally I think that "baby" applies around 20 weeks, but that's a matter of opinion, of course.

What is that baby called at 19 weeks and 6 days, Doug??

I saw my 11 week old baby in my hand. It was the tiniest, most perfectly formed baby. My baby.

Google fetal growth. Week by precious week you can see for yourself the amazing miracle of life. You really can learn something new everyday.

Carla: What is that baby called at 19 weeks and 6 days, Doug?

If we are drawing a line, then it's not a "baby," there, it's a fetus, and "baby" does not yet apply, in my opinion. I did say "around 20 weeks" though, so not a big deal.

I think all women should have the right to choose to bury the remains of their unborn children. Only 6 or 7 states give women the right to take the dead child home. Many hospitals will allow women to take the body home to bury it but not all. There should be laws allowing the choice to bury your child. Btw miscarriage is up to 20 weeks gestation and stillbirth is after 20 weeks. I also lost a child at 17 weeks. He was 8 inches long and weighed 6 ounces. They gave me the right to take him home and bury him.

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Heyy people!
What it do?
Anyways...I am new here at www.jillstanek.com so thought I would introduce myself.
You can call me frank or bluetoot or jigga ringtone (haha dont ask).
I like playing guitar and umm I am a musician.
Umm not sure what else to say so.. nice to meet you guys!
I will see you guys around.
peace
bluetoof

Watsup people!
I am new here and so I sha'll introduce myself.
I'm 17 and I go to a catholic school. I live in Newark New Jersey.
I want to be an reporter when i grow up so ive been practicing writing alot for the past few weeks.
My teacher gave us an article to write for homework tonight which i just finished :D
If you guys don't mind I'd like to share it with you and if you can 'critique' it? that would be cool!

TOPIC :: free online christian dating

Although it may be argued that caste, creed, and religion may often play a negligible part in the modern day dating scene, still there are people who consider these things important and an essential part of their life. The most important and wide ranging question is the question of religion. In the United States Christianity is a major religion. A preponderance of its citizens young and old consider themselves Christians. Keeping this in mind, numerous free Christian dating sites have emerged.

Christian dating sites are unique in the sense that they generally do not allow people or do not consider them eligible to be members if they do not suit the criterion of being Christian. In this sense it narrows the number of members by concentrating on the religious orientation of the members.

Free Christian dating sites are unique in the sense that these sites provide ample scope for Christians to enjoy dating. There are many people who abide by religious customs. Many of these do not want to date or be in a relationship with someone who does not belong to the same religion. They would rather opt out of the other free dating sites.

All free dating sites operate on a system whereby you post a profile of yourself and look for others with similar interests. Your membership is paid for by ads.


Well, thats most of it.. didnt want to bore you guys too much ;d.
any input???
Anyways nice to meet you guys, hope to be a big part of www.jillstanek.com :D thanks