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I have received a series of emails from a man who tried to correspond with Fr. Michael Pfleger on his support of Obama for president....

Pfleger is an infamous Chicago Catholic priest, a white guy pastoring at a south side black church, St. Sabina's. No one can touch Pflger because his people there love him and because he does do some good.

But Pfleger is a bold-faced liberal who clearly identifies with blacks more than God or his church.

In 2003 I was part of a pro-life picket when Pfleger invited pro-abort Al Sharpton to speak from the pulpit during Mass one Sunday.

Last year Pfleger had Louis Farrakhan in to speak.

Also last year Pfleger, while demontrating outside a Chicago gun shop with Jesse Jackson, threatened, "We're going to snuff out [shop owner] John Riggio. We're going to snuff out legislators that are voting against our gun laws." He got in trouble for that one.

And no surprise, Pfleger supports Obama and has for a long time. He said last January, "I think Barack Obama is in a class of his own. I think he is the best thing that has come across the political scene since Bobby Kennedy...."

As you can see above, Pfleger has also contributed to Obama. And here was his response when my email friend wrote him about Obama's support of live birth abortion among many other afronts to the Bible:

Incredible.

"But Pfleger is a bold-faced liberal who clearly identifies with blacks more than God or his church."

Yes because blacks aren't God's children, God doesn't care about them and when God made us in his image, he meant white people. And you accuse the pro-choice side of being racist.

And what is wrong with identifying with black people? Is it because you think they are stupid animals who aren't capable of thinking above their own basic needs? Isn't that one of the reasons why you dislike abortion? Because you assume black people can't help themselves?

Pfleger "identifies more with blacks than with God..."?

I did not realize they were mutually exclusive.

Are you suggesting blacks are the devil?

Did I misread this, or is it an incredibly racist statement?

And, by the way, please post the power of attorney or other authority by which you purport to speak for God.

I would also remind you, Jill, that until you take over, or become God, this is still the United States, and citizens can support whoever they wish for political office.

Your arrogance is without limit.

"Fr. Pfleger's black heart"
"who clearly identifies with blacks more than God or his church."

Really?
I didn't know that "blacks" and "God and his church" were mutually exclusive.

My my my Jill. The true nature of your moral character becomes clearer and clearer every day. Dissing the elderly and now black folks.

This priest seems to enjoy his "rock star" status a little too much, imo. I think he is celebrity-obsessed.

This is incredible and sad but no more so than the scandal of Martin Sheen being awarded Notre Dames highest honor or Feminists for Life honoring Sheen. Sheen has given much more money to pro abort pols than Pfleger has.

I believe Pfleger is punk and a disgrace to the Roman Catholic priesthood but he has publicly led protests against abortion at a mill in Chicago unlike Sheen whose activism for the unborn is a MYTH. I've posted about pro-choice, pro-same sex marriage advocate Martin Sheen on this blog.

Wow. So...who's next on your "to hate" list Jill? Hates gays? Check. Hates blacks? Check.

Look! Priest are actually Pro-Aborts!!! Let's shut down the churches!

You bascially just had a post up denouncing abortion because of the actions on an abortion clinic employee.

I just read his Wikipedia entry that was linked to in the post. If it is all basically true (and it is Wikipedia, but all the facts seemed to have legitimate links), it sounds as though he's done more good in his life than Jill will ever do.

...and yet, he has a "black" heart. I'm guessing that his prostitute outreach program has probably stopped more abortions than all the PL'ers on this site combined.

But Pfleger is a bold-faced liberal who clearly identifies with blacks more than God or his church.

Wow. Just, wow. I would certainly hope that a human being, even a priest, doesn't identify with God. Respect, worship, praise, etc., yes, but identify? We are human beings, not Gods on Earth.

And I would most certainly hope that a priest would do everything within his power to identify with his congregation, as that is who he is here to serve.

Racist much?

Oh, brother. You thick-headed people. Anytime anyone identifies with anyone or anything to a greater extent than God, that person is in error. Pfleger's loyalty to blacks just because they are black obviously surpasses his loyalty to God.

Wow. Some folks are really desperate to slam Jill. Pretty tortured misreading of her statement.

It's not JILL who is opposing black identity with the Catholic faith, but PFLEGER who is doing that.

That Obama is BLACK matters more to Pfleger than Obama's radical support for abortion, even partial birth abortion.

"But Pfleger is a bold-faced liberal who clearly identifies with blacks more than God or his church."

Anyone who places anyone, any group, or anything above God has a problem. The liberals are fishing, looking for any comment that can be construed to fit their twisted view of conservatives.

One would hope that anyone claiming and/or trying to represent God's interests would be more sympathetic to His expressed views than those of any human being, of any color, nationality, particular sin, or bank account.

But Phfleger isn't the first and sadly, I'm sure he won't be the last, to exploit blacks and others to push an agenda that is destructive to all humanity, both in the short and the long runs.

Anyone who has actually studied the Christian scriptures and sat and watched almost all day as liberals shameless exploited Rosa Parks' funeral to push their agenda to continue the wholescale slaughter of black babies in the womb will grasp why the charges of racism leveled at Jill are unfounded, ungrounded, and bassackwards.

Speaking of Rosa Parks, while her sitting down on the Montgomery bus was legitimate in and of itself (I'm sure Jill, incidentally, will concur with me and countless other prolifers on this), that bus took a tragic wrong turn when she sat down on the advocacy board of arguably racist Planned Parenthood, crushing millions of innocent young black lives beneath it's wheels, so to speak. The body count just piles up, and Obama wants it increased, not diminished. Anyone in sympathy with that does not accurately represent the true interests of God, or the best interests of the black community.

Jill,
Why do you think he's loyal to black people only because they're black? How does it surpass his loyalty to God? And way to hurl insults just because we pointed out your racist attitude.

Oh, brother. You thick-headed people. Anytime anyone identifies with anyone or anything to a greater extent than God, that person is in error. Pfleger's loyalty to blacks just because they are black obviously surpasses his loyalty to God.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 5, 2008 3:33 PM
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Oh brother indeed! Anyone that identifies with a deity to a greater extent than fellow human beings is a fruit loop. Your racism is shining through brilliantly.

Jess, Hieronymous, Sally,

You hypocrites have no problem with PP targeting black communities to make money off of killing their unborn children.

It's obvious you missed the point of Jill's post, this bum priest is just a race baiter who stirs up anger in the black community and doesn't bother top follow the teaching of the church. Typical liberal.

That Obama is BLACK matters more to Pfleger than Obama's radical support for abortion, even partial birth abortion.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 5, 2008 3:34 PM
.........................

And you know this because racist Jill says so.

"But Phfleger isn't the first and sadly, I'm sure he won't be the last, to exploit blacks and others to push an agenda"

Like all the time on this site where you claim abortion is just genocide against African Americans?

But Phfleger isn't the first and sadly, I'm sure he won't be the last, to exploit blacks

Posted by: just thinking at March 5, 2008 3:35 PM
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Exploit? Really?
How is he "exploiting" African Americans?

"But Pfleger is a bold-faced liberal who clearly identifies with blacks more than God or his church."

Anyone who places anyone, any group, or anything above God has a problem. The liberals are fishing, looking for any comment that can be construed to fit their twisted view of conservatives.

Posted by: Matthew at March 5, 2008 3:35 PM
..........................................

You have a very twisted view of conservatives if you believe that Jill has been voted the conservative mouthpiece. Jill is a bigot. She has provided endless examples of such on this blog of hers.

"You hypocrites have no problem with PP targeting black communities to make money off of killing their unborn children."

Yes because we went over the fact that they only give abortions to black women.

Obviously there are more black people in a bigger population, in cities it is more convenient to have everything there because that's where more people are.

"Anyone who places anyone, any group, or anything above God has a problem."

So all the people who tell me I can't love Jesus because I'm pro-choice have a problem because they think they can tell God what to think?

Pfleger is an infamous Chicago Catholic priest, a white guy pastoring at a south side black church, St. Sabina's.

I really don't understand what this has to do with anything to be honest. I mean, by his picture we can SEE that he's white and that he works at a black church..so why the need to point it out?

Will you folks please stop pretending that Jill said anything racist? Good grief. How do you expect to have any sort of intelligent discussion when you're doing nothing but hurling ridiculous insults at Jill?

It's obvious that she means that Fr. Pfleger puts the concerns of liberal organizations over the concerns of Jesus Christ. The man is a priest; he shouldn't be siding with liberals against his own Church, regardless of what color they are!

Jill, I can't presume to be able to speak on behalf of the Church, but as a Catholic, I apologize for Fr. Pfleger. I wish that his bishop would do something about him, but unfortunately we don't seem to have much leadership from the bishops, as we saw during the sexual abuse scandal. It's just so frustrating.

Pfleger's loyalty to blacks just because they are black obviously surpasses his loyalty to God.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 5, 2008 3:33 PM
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So he couldn't possibly love his congregation or endorse a candidate based their merit or achievments or even their sparkling personalities? It's just because they're African Americans?
That thought would only occur to a person who believes that African-Americans have no other positive qualites or value.

Jess, Hieronymous, Sally,

You hypocrites have no problem with PP targeting black communities to make money off of killing their unborn children.

It's obvious you missed the point of Jill's post, this bum priest is just a race baiter who stirs up anger in the black community and doesn't bother top follow the teaching of the church. Typical liberal.

Posted by: jasper at March 5, 2008 3:39 PM
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Jasper,
Are you saying that black people do not deserve affordable and accessable reproductive health care?
Race baiter would be better applied to you Jasper. The priest actually has done good things for his black community. I double dog dare you to point to one instance of stirring up racial hatred that can be applied to the man. You just like to throw anyone who disagrees with you into convenient little categories. It seems to give you an excuse to hate.

John,

To be fair, Jill brought up that the guy was white and his congregation was black..and I don't see why that even matters. So if Jill could clarify then I would feel a little better about it myself.

I really don't understand what this has to do with anything to be honest. I mean, by his picture we can SEE that he's white and that he works at a black church..so why the need to point it out?

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 5, 2008 3:52 PM
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Read the article again. She could have told that whole story and NEVER mention race.
The race of the Fr., the congregation and the politicians isn't even germane to the subject.

Speaking of Obama again:

A parable on the allure of socialism/communism

There was a chemistry professor in a large college that had some exchange students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab, the professor noticed one young man, an exchange student, who kept rubbing his back and stretching as if his back hurt.

The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist regime.

In the midst of his story, he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked: 'Do y ou know how to catch wild pigs?' The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said that it was no joke.

'You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side. The pigs, which are used to the free corn, come through the gate to eat that free corn again. You then slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd. Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. So they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.'

The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening in America The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tax cuts, tax exemptions, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. while we continually lose our freedoms, just a little at a time.

One should always remember two truths: There is no such thing as a free lunch and you can never hire someone to provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.

Which candidates out there are most anxious to spread around the feed corn?

Think Globally; Act Locally 2008

I don't know Elizabeth, why did she add that story about the woman who crushed the puppy and point out how she was a Korean woman?

That thought would only occur to a person who believes that African-Americans have no other positive qualites or value.

Actually, I know black people who are only voting for Barack because he's black. They didn't say any other reason for voting for him.

But to be honest, I don't think whether or not one has positive qualities or value has ANYTHING to do with the color of their skin.

Read the article again. She could have told that whole story and NEVER mention race.
The race of the Fr., the congregation and the politicians isn't even germane to the subject.

I agree...ahh what is going on? I think I agree with you FF.

I'm just curious WHAT the whole point behind bringing race up was..I wish Jill could clarify this for me.

Exploit? Really?
How is he "exploiting" African Americans?

Posted by: FetusFascist at March 5, 2008 3:41 PM
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Apparently by selling them Jesus. Jesus was white you know and Jill has the self proclaimed privilege of speaking for Him. Obviously this priest isn't selling Jesus correctly according to Jill.

Wow. So...who's next on your "to hate" list Jill? Hates gays? Check. Hates blacks? Check.

Don't forget Muslims!!! Jill has shown us that shehates Muslims as well.

Jill has a lot of underlying and blatant racism in her posts Elizabeth. And I wouldn't expect to get an answer back from her either.

"So all the people who tell me I can't love Jesus because I'm pro-choice have a problem because they think they can tell God what to think?"

You've got that exactly backwards. The fact that you're pro-choice points to your position vis-a-vis God. God was very clear as to what His position is regarding murder.

John said: It's obvious that she means that Fr. Pfleger puts the concerns of liberal organizations over the concerns of Jesus Christ. The man is a priest; he shouldn't be siding with liberals against his own Church, regardless of what color they are!

If that's true, then why did Jill make it a point to not only mention that Fr. Pfleger is white (so what?) and that his parish is predominantly black (again, so what?)

Think Globally; Act Locally 2008
Posted by: passing through at March 5, 2008 3:59 PM
..................................

The Cold War is over. The Red Menace is not upon us. Keep going passing through,

"Jill has a lot of underlying and blatant racism in her posts"

So you claim. Give some links.

"God was very clear as to what His position is regarding murder."

No he wasn't. In the ten commandments he says "Thou shall not kill" and in the next breath he talks about stoning ungrateful children.

Jill has a lot of underlying and blatant racism in her posts Elizabeth. And I wouldn't expect to get an answer back from her either.

Hmm, I don't know about that, but I would like an answer from Jill about this.

Wow. So...who's next on your "to hate" list Jill? Hates gays? Check. Hates blacks? Check.

Don't forget Muslims!!! Jill has shown us that she hates Muslims as well.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 5, 2008 4:05 PM
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Chinese, Koreans ................. Having her bigotry and unending pile of misinformation pointed out to her?

Jess, all Christians are commanded to bring every thought into subjection to the judgments of God, which do not condemn the innocent to death, but enjoin those in a position to do so to rescue, protect and plead for them to be spared.

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

This religion is not evil/destructive/harmful in itself, as is induced abortion; which is one very good reason why abuses of it should not be used to suppress the real thing. Abortion, however, is evil/destructive'harmful in itself; that is the difference.

Millions of innocent black children have been slaughtered in utero since Roe v. Wade by Planned Parenthood and other abortion profiteers, but I have never known a prolife sidewalk counselor to stop pleading for the unborn because his/her mother happened to be black. So how is trying to save black children from slaughter exploiting them? Would we be exploiting you if we intervened on your behalf if you were about to be hacked to pieces and we knew about it but you did not?

If any of you proabort trolls honestly cared about the black community, you would face facts and put their survival above your slaughterhouse agenda and join us, instead of constantly turning a deaf ear to their silent screams and looking for ways to excuse their murderers. Otherwise, stop your hypocritical whining and projection.

I'm very glad the younger men coming to seminary are more orthodox than the previous generation(s.) As I said before, the book "Good-Bye Good Men" tells the story of (many) of our current priests. The new associates in the churches near me are very orthodox, bringing people back to confession, adoration and the Tridentine Mass.

As for this Laura...

"So he couldn't possibly love his congregation or endorse a candidate based their merit or achievements or even their sparkling personalities? It's just because they're African Americans?"

Posted by: FetusFascist at March 5, 2008 3:55 PM

If Obama was blue or purple this priest shouldn't support him. One (especially a priest) cannot be "for" someone so obviously against the teachings of the Church. DUH!

There should be a corollary to Godwin's Law. The first one to knee-jerk cry racist loses the argument.

"So all the people who tell me I can't love Jesus because I'm pro-choice have a problem because they think they can tell God what to think?"

You've got that exactly backwards. The fact that you're pro-choice points to your position vis-a-vis God. God was very clear as to what His position is regarding murder.

Posted by: Matthew at March 5, 2008 4:08 PM

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Fetii aren't on His OK to murder list? Guess He like to kill them himself.

It's kind of ironic to point out that identifying the church as "black" is legitimate, but only because of leftist group politics, ie, the liberal notion that black people should all vote a certain way because they're black, women should all vote a certain way because they're women, etc. This is made clear whenever you see a liberal arbitrarily proclaiming that conservatives hate blacks, hate women, or whatever. Kind of like what's going on in this thread.

Fr. Pfleger is more faithful to the liberal notion of what constitutes a black person than he is to the Catholic Church. That's why the status of St. Sabina's as a "black church" is relevant. It's the political nature of the church that matters, not the color of the parishioners.

"Guess He like to kill them himself."

So I guess the idea of a God being the arbiter of life and death is repugnant to you then?

Jill has a lot of underlying and blatant racism in her posts Elizabeth. And I wouldn't expect to get an answer back from her either.

Hmm, I don't know about that, but I would like an answer from Jill about this.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 5, 2008 4:13 PM
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Good luck! I'm sure she is fervently working on a way to lie her way out of exposing herself.

I'm still wanting to know why she pointed out that he was a white man at a black church! We could have figured it out! Or better yet, WHY DOES IT MATTER?!!

"Guess He like to kill them himself."

So I guess the idea of a God being the arbiter of life and death is repugnant to you then?

Posted by: Matthew at March 5, 2008 4:19 PM
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Repugnant? No. Silly? Yes.

I'm just curious WHAT the whole point behind bringing race up was..I wish Jill could clarify this for me.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 5, 2008 4:03 PM

I can't speak for Jill, my guess is she was just stating the facts as any journalist might have done?

It's kind of ironic to point out that identifying the church as "black" is legitimate, but only because of leftist group politics, ie, the liberal notion that black people should all vote a certain way because they're black, women should all vote a certain way because they're women, etc. This is made clear whenever you see a liberal arbitrarily proclaiming that conservatives hate blacks, hate women, or whatever. Kind of like what's going on in this thread.

Fr. Pfleger is more faithful to the liberal notion of what constitutes a black person than he is to the Catholic Church. That's why the status of St. Sabina's as a "black church" is relevant. It's the political nature of the church that matters, not the color of the parishioners.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at March 5, 2008 4:18 PM
...........................................

The man is being true to himself and his parishioners. Does the church serve the people or do people serve the church? But you are correct, religion has no business in politics.

"Repugnant? No. Silly? Yes."

So, what do you believe, if I may ask?

I can't speak for Jill, my guess is she was just stating the facts as any journalist might have done?

How are those facts relevant to the story exactly??

You atheists really need to make up your minds. Either God is an evil, bloodthirsty murderer, or He doesn't exist. Kinda hard to be both.

Though if the Old Testament God is a bloodthirsty murderer as you claim, would it be accurate to call you a bunch of anti-Semites?

I'm just curious WHAT the whole point behind bringing race up was..I wish Jill could clarify this for me.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 5, 2008 4:03 PM

I can't speak for Jill, my guess is she was just stating the facts as any journalist might have done?

Posted by: Janet at March 5, 2008 4:24 PM
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Journalist? A journalist states factual information to present a newsworthy story. Jill is incapable of doing so.

Sally,
I knew that was coming. You're quick.

Though if the Old Testament God is a bloodthirsty murderer as you claim, would it be accurate to call you a bunch of anti-Semites?

Posted by: John Lewandowski at March 5, 2008 4:27 PM

Was that supposed to make sense?

I can't speak for Jill, my guess is she was just stating the facts as any journalist might have done?

Posted by: Janet at March 5, 2008 4:24 PM
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Oh, right. Race is aways part of the news story:

"Lance Armstrong, a caucasian, won the Tour de France in record time..."

Anyone whose claim to the title of "journalist" rests on columns published in Wing Nut Daily really hasn't any business calling themselves a journalist. YMMV.

Elizabeth, it's only important because of group politics, as I said. Fr. Pfleger is not part of the group (because he's white) and yet he's indulging in group politics anyway along with the black church. The black church unfortunately ascribes to the liberal view of what black people are supposed to be like, when as a Catholic church they should simply be following Catholic teaching. As a conservative, I find it insulting to think that a black person should behave in a certain way just because he's black, but that's just one reason why I'm conservative and not liberal.

Fr. Pfleger, an outsider of the group, has nonetheless joined with the group... and against his own Church. That's what the issue is here. The man is supposed to be an advocate for the Catholic Church and Catholic teaching, but instead, he has become a member of a group, advocating the position of that group even if it goes against his Church.

It has nothing to do with the actual color of Fr. Pfleger or his parishioners, and everything to do with the roles that liberals give to people with different color skin.

Hieronymous said: "Though if the Old Testament God is a bloodthirsty murderer as you claim, would it be accurate to call you a bunch of anti-Semites?

Was that supposed to make sense?"

Think about it. Which God do Jewish people worship? The Old Testament God. And yet atheists call this God a bloodthirsty murderer. This means that atheists accuse Jews of worshipping a bloodthirsty murderer, no? Is that not anti-Semitic?

it's the same god in both testaments isn't it? He just mellowed out a bit.

I'm not sure the theological explanation for Him getting rid of the old attitude though.

Is that not anti-Semitic?

Posted by: John Lewandowski at March 5, 2008 4:37 PM

Nope. But you sure do construct a purty strawman.

it's only important because of group politics, as I said. Fr. Pfleger is not part of the group (because he's white) and yet he's indulging in group politics anyway along with the black church.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's not a "black church," it's just a church.
You have trouble with him agreeing with the majority of parishioners because he's white? He's not allowed?

***********************************************

JS:
"I find it insulting to think that a black person should behave in a certain way just because he's black"

But you want this priest to behave a certain way because he's white?

Yes, Hal, it's the same God in both Testaments. But atheists either think it's a different God, or that he somehow mellowed out. If you read the New Testament, however, you'll find the same message from Jesus Christ as you found from God in the Old Testament. In fact, some atheists (Christopher Hitchens for one) think that Jesus is even more mean than the Old Testament God, since he's always talking about unrepentant sinners going to Hell.

Laura said: "But you want this priest to behave a certain way because he's white?"

Laura, I want this priest to behave in a certain way because he is CATHOLIC.

I really would like to Jill to answer for herself...all the speculation doesn't do much for me since nobody else said it but her.

Elizabeth, it's only important because of group politics, as I said. Fr. Pfleger is not part of the group (because he's white) and yet he's indulging in group politics anyway along with the black church. The black church unfortunately ascribes to the liberal view of what black people are supposed to be like, when as a Catholic church they should simply be following Catholic teaching.

Did you ever think that maybe the "black church" ascribes to their own idea of what they should be like? Or would that be giving black people too much credit for the ability to think, in your estimation?

And did you ever stop and think that maybe Fr. Pfleger is actually part of his "group" because he's their priest?

Hieronymous, a strawman is when I set up a weak argument and claim that it's yours, only to show how bad of an argument it is.

Are you denying that atheists think that the Old Testament God is a bloodthirsty murderer? You need only read the rest of this thread to see such accusations made against the Old Testament God, or use Google to find folks on atheist websites saying the same kinds of things.

So... if the claim that Jews worship a bloodthirsty murderer is not anti-Semitic, what is it? Pro-Jewish? Or is it neutral? Somehow I doubt that Jewish people would appreciate such a claim.

Yuck. This whole thread just makes me sick. The more I see here, the more I think that the heart of the whole "pro-life" movement is nothing but hatred and fear.

Hieronymous said: "Did you ever think that maybe the "black church" ascribes to their own idea of what they should be like? Or would that be giving black people too much credit for the ability to think, in your estimation?"

It is a Catholic Church. They are supposed to be Catholic, and they are putting liberalism ahead of Catholicism. These are simply the facts.

Hieronymous said: "And did you ever stop and think that maybe Fr. Pfleger is actually part of his "group" because he's their priest?"

As a Catholic priest he is supposed to lead them to become better Catholics, not better liberals.

You atheists really need to make up your minds. Either God is an evil, bloodthirsty murderer, or He doesn't exist. Kinda hard to be both.

Though if the Old Testament God is a bloodthirsty murderer as you claim, would it be accurate to call you a bunch of anti-Semites?

Posted by: John Lewandowski at March 5, 2008 4:27 PM
.....................................

I think it would be more relevant to accuse Christians of being anti-Semitic. After all, they cherry picked a Semitic religion to create their own mythology. Your RCC hasn't been exactly humane towards Semites as a 'race' John.

Hieronymous said: "Yuck. This whole thread just makes me sick. The more I see here, the more I think that the heart of the whole "pro-life" movement is nothing but hatred and fear."

Sally said: "I think it would be more relevant to accuse Christians of being anti-Semitic. After all, they cherry picked a Semitic religion to create their own mythology. Your RCC hasn't been exactly humane towards Semites as a 'race' John."

I just thought it was funny to put those two posts together.

Honestly John...Jill didn't bring up liberal/conservative agenda or really the religious aspect of it...she brought up black and white. That's why people are saying something about it.

Laura said: "But you want this priest to behave a certain way because he's white?"

Laura, I want this priest to behave in a certain way because he is CATHOLIC.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at March 5, 2008 4:47 PM
.........................
Anyone up for an Inquisition? What will it be John? Thumb screws? Waterboarding? How about a nice toasty burning at the stake?

The more I see here, the more I think that the heart of the whole "pro-life" movement is nothing but hatred and fear.

There is no hatred or fear in the heart of this pro-lifer.

Don't make generalizations..it only makes you look bad.

Elizabeth, I told you she wouldn't answer.

John, Jew's can worship whoever they wish. They're still people. Most good people. Some bad. People. Walking around. Talking a little. Hmmm

Honestly John...Jill didn't bring up liberal/conservative agenda or really the religious aspect of it...she brought up black and white. That's why people are saying something about it.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 5, 2008 5:02 PM
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John thinks that his RCC has the answers to everything. He can't support Jill's post without slamming his own theology by discrediting it. So he digresses.
The Chicago priest is a loose cannon to the RCC but brings in the funds. Ooops! I mean souls to Jesus. They can't can him without bringing the roof down over their heads.
Bet Jill is working really hard on spinning right now.

"I double dog dare you to point to one instance of stirring up racial hatred that can be applied to the man."

Inviting Farrakhan. Nothing more needs to be said.

Inviting Farrakhan. Nothing more needs to be said.

Please expand on this, Jasper. I'm not sure what you mean.

"Anyone up for an Inquisition? What will it be John? Thumb screws? Waterboarding? How about a nice toasty burning at the stake?"

If it wasn't for the crusades you be wearing burka and bedsheet.

"Anyone up for an Inquisition? What will it be John? Thumb screws? Waterboarding? How about a nice toasty burning at the stake?"

If it wasn't for the crusades you be wearing burka and bedsheet.

Posted by: jasper at March 5, 2008 5:23 PM
.........................................

That's pretty ridiculous Jasper.

"I double dog dare you to point to one instance of stirring up racial hatred that can be applied to the man."

Inviting Farrakhan. Nothing more needs to be said.

Posted by: jasper at March 5, 2008 5:20 PM
.....................
Would that be your way of saying that anything beyond some kind of catch phrase is beyond your abilities?

"If it wasn't for the crusades you be wearing burka and bedsheet."

No. The Christians invaded the Muslims land.

With ancestors coming from Romania I could say, if it wasn't for Vlad the Impaler sticking a bunch of men, women and children on stakes then I would be wearing a burka.

Plus the Pope at the time supported Vlad.

Heir,

Don't make generalizations..even large groups disagree. We democrats for life are actually trying to expand the movement beyond what would be considered the religious right...so you shouldn't confuse the two. I think it's like square/rectangle kind of thing.

I hate how people like to group pro-life with anti-gay or anti-woman and all that--when it shouldn't be that way. :)

Heir,

Don't make generalizations..even large groups disagree. We democrats for life are actually trying to expand the movement beyond what would be considered the religious right...so you shouldn't confuse the two. I think it's like square/rectangle kind of thing.

I hate how people like to group pro-life with anti-gay or anti-woman and all that--when it shouldn't be that way. :)

Posted by: prettyinpink at March 5, 2008 5:36 PM

I agree PIP. And I apologize.

No problem Hier, just making sure you are aware ;)

To be fair, pro-lifers are getting really great at generalizing liberals...

Wrong, Sally, as you so often are. There are still people who ardently believe in socialism and communism, and are working hard to have it imposed on america and the rest of the world not already in that thralldom. Two of them are fighting over the demonratic presidential nomination in the U.S right now. Plenty of evidence of this on the communist party's own website. So when I pass through the refuse from this morning's breakfast, I'll be sure that your advice goes down the toilet with it, where it belongs.

To be fair, pro-lifers are getting really great at generalizing liberals...

Posted by: prettyinpink at March 5, 2008 5:45 PM

Hehehehe, it's funny you should say that, given the post that appears right below yours. Perfect timing.

Wrong, Sally, as you so often are. There are still people who ardently believe in socialism and communism, and are working hard to have it imposed on america and the rest of the world not already in that thralldom. Two of them are fighting over the demonratic presidential nomination in the U.S right now. Plenty of evidence of this on the communist party's own website. So when I pass through the refuse from this morning's breakfast, I'll be sure that your advice goes down the toilet with it, where it belongs.

Posted by: precious turd at March 5, 2008 5:46 PM

...........................

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your heart it will creep

Way hung over creepy? Or trying to lose weight through purging?

"No. The Christians invaded the Muslims land."

After the Muslims made 3/4 of Christian lands theirs. The Muslims then denied access to Christian holy sites. If it weren't for Charles Martel, Don John of Austria, and Jan Sobieski, Europe would have fallen as well. Too bad they squandered their hard work, because Europe is probably going to be Islamic within the next century.

Jill, you make it so easy when you wear your racism on your sleeve like that.

"No. The Christians invaded the Muslims land."

After the Muslims made 3/4 of Christian lands theirs. The Muslims then denied access to Christian holy sites. If it weren't for Charles Martel, Don John of Austria, and Jan Sobieski, Europe would have fallen as well. Too bad they squandered their hard work, because Europe is probably going to be Islamic within the next century.

Posted by: Matthew at March 5, 2008 6:37 PM
................................................

So it wasn't really about religion but rather ancient issues over men's greed for power and control. The one that murders the most gets to label the religion. You know that Christianity is doomed without access to control rights over holy sights/idols to worship. Isn't the Vatican enough for you?

"Please expand on this, Jasper. I'm not sure what you mean..."

do a google search on Farrakhan.

It is so sad that any one would read racism into Jill's line:" But Pfleger is a bold-faced liberal who clearly identifies with blacks more than God or his church. " It seems to me that what she is saying is that he is putting a pro-black agenda over what she believes would be God's agenda. God's agenda is not pro- white over pro black or pro-black over pro-white. It is pro life.

Elizabeth, I'm with you. The reference to his "black heart" alone seemed a kind of revolting double-entendre to me, given what "black heart" means figuratively and the mention of the fact that he's a white priest with a largely black congregation. It seems really strange, like there must have been a legitimate reason to bring up racial references, but I am having trouble thinking of one myself.

..this is precisly why an honest discussion on race cannot take place in this country.. it's because liberals and the PC police immediatly yell racism whenever they get the chance. It quite disgusting, as it's usually the ones that yell racism are the racists themselves.

I do not know much about Fr. Pfleger, but the fact that he holds up the likes of Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan and Al Sharpton as leaders for his flock certainly leads me to question his judgment.

Going with Bismark on that one. I think the priest who hosts the poverty/race pimps isn't really out to help any minorities. Supporting the program that aborts half of black babies isn't about helping Blacks, nor is it an identification with Blacks. That liberal agenda is really about looking down on Blacks and pretending that their lot, (and everyone else's) would be better with half of Blacks dead at or before birth.

I think the main objection is that this priest made contributions to a Presidential Candidate that supports ABORTION (and INFANTCIDE) which goes against the Faith that this Priest represents. How do we know if any of Fr. Pfleger's parishioners are pro life Catholics? He's contributing to a candidate that supports Planned Parenthood, whose agenda still includes eliminating blacks.

Priests can't endorse a specific candidate from the pulpit (it would basically endanger their tax free status) so by giving money to a man that outright does not conform to any Life affirming decisions is the BIG problem.

Someone SHOULD contact the Bishop or the Cardinal from the Chicago area and let them know that this priest contributed money to a pro abortion candidate.

As a Catholic, I am embarrassed that this priest can call himself Catholic.

I'm pretty disappointed that Jill couldn't clarify exactly what race has to do with this article and why she felt the need to mention it. I was asking a genuine question and not accusing her of being a racist or anything and she didn't even have a response. I wanted her to be able to clarify what she meant and she hasn't...it is quite disappointing for me.

Jill,
That reply to your letter is so typical. Suppose he gets away from everybody who confronts him on issues he cant stand up to by using that quaint little phrase. He knew he had absolutely no position he could take to defend his support for Obama so he avoided your question
and said he "would pray for your hardened heart".
He needs to be ex-communicated.

Elizabeth,
I know you want to hear it from Jill but it appeared to me that Jill was just being clever by including the phrase "black-hearted" in the article. It carries a double meaning by representing his love for blacks and the fact that he his open support for a politician who supports a doctors right to kill born-alive infants means he has "blackened" his heart. I see how you could twist it as being racist but I didn't see it that wat at all when I read it.

Jill,
Now that I read it again I see that it was not you who the letters but it somebody else. I would like to thank you for exposing his anti-catholic position and for shedding some light on this "priest" and his dark, blackened, hypocritical, blasphemous heart.

Jill,
Now that I read it again I see that it was not you who the letters but it somebody else. I would like to thank you for exposing his anti-catholic position and for shedding some light on this "priest" and his dark, blackened, hypocritical, blasphemous heart.

I was also pointing out that she felt the need to mention that he was a white priest at a black church. From the picture she put up I'm sure we could figure out that he was a white guy, I don't know why she reiterated it. I also don't really know what a "black" church is to be honest. Can white people not go to a "black" church? Are churches considered "black?" I thought churches were divided based on religion, not race.

Black church usually means church in a black community so the congregation is mostly black. St. Sabina is in a black community on the South side of Chicago where most areas are still pretty
segregated.

As a side note: I remember last year there was debate because other Catholic schools in the area didn't want to let St Sabina's have "home" basketball games cause they would finish after dark and the crime rate in their community was so high that the visiting teams feared for their safety.

I was also pointing out that she felt the need to mention that he was a white priest at a black church. From the picture she put up I'm sure we could figure out that he was a white guy, I don't know why she reiterated it. I also don't really know what a "black" church is to be honest. Can white people not go to a "black" church? Are churches considered "black?" I thought churches were divided based on religion, not race.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 5, 2008 11:01 PM

........................

You are not going to get an answer from Jill Elizabeth. Your idol has feet of clay.

Black church usually means church in a black community so the congregation is mostly black. St. Sabina is in a black community on the South side of Chicago where most areas are still pretty
segregated.

See, my point is though, that saying a church is "black" pretty much encourages the kind of segregation that people don't want. The church I go to is in a predominantly white community, but we don't call it a "white" church do we? No we don't. Why? Because that's stupid. JUST like it's stupid to call the church in this article a "black" church.

I would agree that it is unhealthy to "define" a church by it demographics but those terms have been around a long time and will be around as long as our communities are segregated the way they are.

I just sent an e-mail to the Pastor Pfleger:

As a catholic I am greatly troubled that a Catholic priest could support Barach Obama's political campaign. Are you aware of his dedication to fighting to prevent restrictions of any kind on abortion. Not only did he vote against the partial birth abortion ban, he also voted against the Illinois Born Alive Infants Act. Is it true that you support him politically?

Thank you for your kind response,

Respectfully,

Concerned Catholic and former south-sider

I would agree that it is unhealthy to "define" a church by it demographics but those terms have been around a long time and will be around as long as our communities are segregated the way they are.

Well...abortion has been around for quite some time..so what's the point in fighting against it? Why is it so much easier to be outraged by abortion than it is to be outraged by racist comments? Because racism has been around a lot longer?

I am outraged at both equally. Injustice in any area of life bothers me deeply.

Excue me but I thought God was color blind?

Our loyalties belong to the Word of God, not any race or the poor or the rich.

It is as much a sin to favor the poor over the rich as it is a sin to favor the rich over the poor.

In fact, from God's perspective we are ALL poor and impoverished and on our way to hell.

And what can be more poor and impoverished than an innocent baby in the womb, please tell me, please, please tell me?

No, this Fr's support of a reprobate advocate of childer butchering like Obama is an indication of missplaced compassion and a total misunderstnading of Scripture.

Give me a pro-life black woman who wants equality for the rich and poor and I will vote for that person in a heartbeat.

What Obama is, is a pro-infanticide user and blasphemer of God's Word.

As a Catholic in the Chicago area, I am well aware of the antics of Father Flakey. He is not really a priest as he doesn't follow or teach for the Church. He is a shameless self- promoter, as interested in getting face time on TV as Paris Hilton is.

He is most interested in dividing people, not bringing them together as so many other priests who have black parishoners are. When the issue of competeing with different parishes occured, he took it to the media before contacting the league -- he's not interested in the kids really, he's interested in himself.

He refuses to follow authority and move to another church, as is required by the rule of the Church. He is only interested in having a personal following. His support of a an avidly pro-abortion candidate is only the latest in his divergence of Catholic teaching. Inviting Farrakan, a well-know anti-semite, is really abhorrant.

I find this 'media darling' a complete embarrassment. I don't know why he continues as a priest, he could really make a fortune if he became a minister.

Elizabeth,
You probably were never exposed to the kind of segregation that still exists on the South Side of Chicago. One side of the tracks is all white, and the other side is all black. People on both sides refer to almost all places as being black or white just to define the demographics of the church without ever really thinking twice about it or meaning to be racist.
You are right to think that NO church should define itself as being a white church or a black church. All Cathlic churches should be first and foremost places of prayer and places where people join together to worship Jesus Christ.

"I'm pretty disappointed that Jill couldn't clarify exactly what race has to do with this article and why she felt the need to mention it."

why are you asking Jill what race has to do with it? You should be emailing Michael Pfleger and asking him why he brings white hater Louis Farakaan into church instead of teaching the faith, and ask him why he is busy courting people because of their race instead of just standing up for what is right and not support candidates who would like to make infanticide legal.

Anon anon:

Your Catholic slip is showing.

Your slam against "ministers" was truly sinful and a disgrace for there are millions of ministers doing God's work.

Sure you don't want to take back your subtle slam against God's anointed ones or should I say all Christians?

For the Word says we are all "ministers" of the Gospel, a royal priesthood.

God cannot be happy with your words my friend.

Elizabeth:

Here's another problem that stems from Catholic teaching. The church is not a building or a place. The church is the "ekklesia" or called out. The church is the Bride of Christ and does not include racists or people like this so-called Fr. Fleger who is the worst kind of religionist.

Many Catholic parishes reflect the community that supports them. I lived near a Polish Catholic church which has masses in Polish and statues of Polish saints.

There are black Catholic churches that do the same, with representations of black saints in the church and also a black Jesus over the altar. Music and vestments also reflect the community.

I think that the variety is a good thing because a parish is part of the community and reflects it in it's outward appearance. I personally like visiting culturally different churches, there is a richness and vitality there. St Sabina is a Black Church and is proud of it.

But despite the differences in decoration, all Catholic Churches must preach the same message and have priests that adhere to the rules.

Father Flakey's self-promotion and support for anti-semites and abortion supporters, puts him at odds with the Church, in my opinion.

Hisman --- Yes, I shouldn't have slammed ministers in general. I'm sorry for that --- perhaps I should have said he should become a motivational speaker, instead.

As a believer, I know that the Church is more than a building -- but it is also the word we use to name the structure. That is why we use capital letters when speaking of the Bride of Christ.

I have to jump out now and head to bed -- Good night.

Elizabeth, the fact that injustice in any area of life troubles you deeply is very healthy for your soul.

Anon anon, I agree

Liz from Nebraska, I think this guy actually disregards directives from his superiors in the church. I'll try to find out how he gets away with it.

HisMan,
Anything bad to say the Catholic faith?

HisMan,
Anything bad to say about the Catholic faith?

Jasper, you are up late tonight.

HisMan says:
Here's another problem that stems from Catholic teaching. The church is not a building or a place. The church is the "ekklesia" or called out. The church is the Bride of Christ and does not include racists or people like this so-called Fr. Fleger who is the worst kind of religionist.

Posted by: HisMan at March 6, 2008 12:07 AM

HisMan,
If you would like to know hat the Catholic Church's teachings are on the Church then here it is: http://tinyurl.com/yr8wyz

HM,
And just where in the Catechism does

Obama is toast. He isn't gonn win anything.

*gonna* above post.

I think people are growing tired of hearing his spiel. And he doesn't seem to handle negative press very well. Time will tell

PFleger is an aberration and should not be overseeing a flock of Christians. He should also be ex-communicated cause there is no such thing as a pro-abort Christian.

Just curious....why do you all assume that because Fr. Pfleger supports Obama that he also supports abortion? I don't think that you actually know this for a fact.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people out there supporting Obama who aren't pro-choice. PIP, for instance, supports Obama, but is adamantly pro-life.

Thanks for that, Hier. Beat me to it.

I think over spring break I will write a feature article on how our school should develop pro-life policies, rather than just denounce abortion. Actions speak louder than words. But apparently (according to some student life people) doing something to help single mothers will silently "accept" sex out of marriage. Whatever that means.

It's time we start getting really involved, then america will follow. Simply denouncing abortion with no plan to actually help single moms or mothers in crisis has been falling on deaf ears.

Actually, I just answered my own question by re-reading the first few comments on this post:

I believe Pfleger is punk and a disgrace to the Roman Catholic priesthood but he has publicly led protests against abortion at a mill in Chicago

Posted by: Tim Lang at March 5, 2008 3:01 PM

Um, so if Tim is right, Fr. Pfleger opposes abortion. Huh, well, all that really leaves Jill to criticize is that he's apparently not racist enough for her.

"It's time we start getting really involved, then america will follow. Simply denouncing abortion with no plan to actually help single moms or mothers in crisis has been falling on deaf ears."

have you ever heard of CPC's? adoption services? Stop making excuses to vote for Obama PIP.

Truthseeker:

Sounds like you want to pick a fight?

why are you asking Jill what race has to do with it? You should be emailing Michael Pfleger and asking him why he brings white hater Louis Farakaan into church instead of teaching the faith, and ask him why he is busy courting people because of their race instead of just standing up for what is right and not support candidates who would like to make infanticide legal.

uhhh derr, cause she posted the article..maybe THAT'S why I'm asking her. And Yes, Jasper, I am aware that quite a lot of reverse-racism goes on in the world, and I express my annoyance at that as well. I think racism of any kind is just stupid, but I'm not the one who brought race into this argument. I didn't point out that he was a white guy at a black church. Jill did..I am merely asking for clarification as to what that has to do with this article exactly. I have not received that..and I can only assume that is for a reason.

HisMan,
I have to admit that it does get kind of boring fighting against pro-aborts cause they are really can't stand up to any scrutiny. I saw your post to Anon, in which you were justified in
calling her out about her disparaging remarks about Ministers. But then I saw your follow up about Catholic's view of the Church and the animosity was palpable.

"but I'm not the one who brought race into this argument."

Elizabeth,
Michael Pfleger brings race (to divide) into his teaching and I believe Jill was pointing that out.

Heir said:
Just curious....why do you all assume that because Fr. Pfleger supports Obama that he also supports abortion? I don't think that you actually know this for a fact.
******************
Anybody who claims to be pro-life MUST also
be against infanticide or they could logically be considered to be schizophrenic. Since Obama is the ONLY politician to vote against the Illinois Born Alive Infants Act, that should, in and of itself, disqualify a pro-life person from even considering support for Obama.
PIP, how do you call yourself pro-life and justify support for Obama? I mean, is there "anything Obama could say or do about killing children that would disqualify him from your supporting him? How can his "care" for others be genuine and he use an issue like killing born alive infants as a way to seperate himself from the rest of the pro-aborts. That is such an extremely evil thing to do and he justifies it as a constitutional right. Sounds like he is schizophrenic too.

"PIP, how do you call yourself pro-life and justify support for Obama?"

She's not the only one. Look at this, makes perfect sense to me.

Pro-Life, Pro-Obama?

by John McGuinness - February 5, 2008
The most important political issue to me is the protection of the unborn. And, in Missouri's open primary, I just voted for Barack Obama. How can this be?

"have you ever heard of CPC's? adoption services? Stop making excuses to vote for Obama PIP."

er....I was specifically talking about schools, jasper. I know there are services outside of school.

"PIP, how do you call yourself pro-life and justify support for Obama?"

I have explained this several times. But I'll keep it succinct so we can all let it go.

1. There are other life issues besides abortion
2. There is little he can do and little he plans to do concerning abortion when he becomes president. As I've said before I"ve been to 2 rallies, none of which mentioned abortion at all.

PFleger is an aberration and should not be overseeing a flock of Christians. He should also be ex-communicated cause there is no such thing as a pro-abort Christian.

Posted by: truthseeker at March 6, 2008 1:30 AM
.......................

Obviously his huge flock disagrees with you.

"There are other life issues besides abortion"

have you reseached Obama's stance on stem cells? euthanasia? he has a 0% percent rating from the National Right to Life.

"There is little he can do and little he plans to do concerning abortion when he becomes president. As I've said before I"ve been to 2 rallies, none of which mentioned abortion at all."

...of course he doesn't mention it, because people he would be turning off a lot of people.

There is much a president can do...why are you suspending your convictions to vote for this guy? are you that infatuated with him?...

Obama pledged to Planned Parenthood: “I will not yield” to pro-life concerns:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=11918

haven't you been reading all posts that Jill has done opn this guy?? or are you just getting caught in the same old retoric his gives before crowds...

Michael Pfleger brings race (to divide) into his teaching and I believe Jill was pointing that out.

Well, like I've said, speculating on what Jill meant is not good enough for me. Unless SHE answers, I will still continue to ask HER.

Abortion laws are not going to change much, regardless of who is President. Let's go with Obama, and end the madness of the last two decades.

"Well, like I've said, speculating on what Jill meant is not good enough for me."

I hope she doesn't answer you, there is no reason to.

"I hope she doesn't answer you, there is no reason to."

Common Courtesy? Friendly conversation? Interesting debate? Courage of her convictions?

I hope she doesn't answer you, there is no reason to.

Besides the fact that I asked a question and am one of the many frequent readers/commenters here. But no, I guess I don't get an answer because Jasper says there is no reason to. Thank you for dismissing my opinion and feelings Jasper, that was very kind and CHRISTIAN of you.

Hal,

Thank you!

"I hope she doesn't answer you, there is no reason to." - Jasper

Nice. That comment certainly speaks volumes about your character, Jasper.

------------------------------------
Elizabeth,

You don't know me, I don't comment her often, but I do read both the posts and the comments. While I don't agree with you at all times, I want you to know that I admire you. Not just for raising a daughter alone and attending school, but for being a young woman with opinions and convictions you are not afraid to stand up for.

I like the way you are willing to speak up, but are also willing to listen and learn as you go. I especially admire the way you don't often sink to angry retorts and nasty insults the way so many here do. I was surprised to see you question Jill here, since so many of her followers are quick to defend her at all cost, even though she can be offensive. It speaks of YOUR character that you spoke up.

I know being a single mom/sudent is time consuming, but I'd like to encourage you to create your own forum or blog. You are strong enough to speak up for the Pro-life movement and unlike many here, you also seem to have a really big heart.

Take Care,
Samantha B.

Thanks Samantha B. Your comment made my day!! I honestly was not being accusatory in my question at all..I just was asking what was the purpose for race being brought up. I don't even begin to assume that I know everything there is to know in life, and that is why I feel there is much to gain from commenting/being on here.

I would love to make my own blog...maybe that would be a goal I could start to fulfill over the summer when I have more time. Thanks for the suggestion!

.... this is nothing more than race baiting, a quickness to accuse people of racism who have been very respectful to her.

I'm sorry, Jasper, I'm not Samantha T. I'm also sorry you think I'm full of sh*t. You don't know anything about me, is it necessary to be so mean?

_______________________________________________

Elizabeth,

Glad I made your day! I feel you're asking an honest question, not just trying to be a smarta** like some of the people above accusing Jill of being racist.

As a someone who regularly comments here and is always willing to defend others here, you deserve an answer to your question.

Samantha B.

this is nothing more than race baiting, a quickness to accuse people of racism who have been very respectful to her.

Are you on crack Jasper? I really was just asking a question because I DON'T see the point of race being included in this article. If she can explain the POINT to me, then I'll be quiet..until then, well it looks like just what it is.

Jesus, jasper.

mods,

I think it's time his post was deleted.

Hmm. I think Jill should probably answer Elizabeth's question, if she's aware of it. I don't see why it shouldn't be answered. I mean, I answered it based on what I think the correct answer was, but I obviously can't speak for Jill.

PIP, President Obama would be a disaster for the pro-life movement. Here is what he could (and most likely would) do as the most strongly pro-abortion president in history:

-Nominate all pro-abortion activist judges for the federal courts, including the Supreme Court.

-Veto any pro-life legislation which makes it through Congress.

-Make American taxpayers fund foreign abortions.

-Make American taxpayers fund embryonic stem cell research.

So go ahead and vote for Obama, but don't insult our intelligence and claim that he would be benign when it comes to pro-life.

John,

That is simply my opinion, it was not a direct insult to you.

I think things like healthcare, the death penalty, war, torture, and aid to darfur (etc) are life issues, too.

Regardless I don't believe any president that gets in there will do a lot concerning abortion because right now they want to focus on the economy and war/foreign policy.
I don't think voting and hope for the best is doing our movement any good, just like it hasn't worked for how many years since Roe? I want to change the strategy and until it becomes a major issue to the public, until our own grassroots movement can grow with members and actions, little can take place on that front in America.
I have many of my own ideas how to make this happen, but if it's just me it might take a while. But I believe it starts a conversation at a time, an exchange of ideas, etc. Pregnancy aid becomes a policy in our schools and colleges. Universal health care will provide prenatal care and the birth control to those who need it. Comprehensive sex ed will teach our kids how to have sex responsively. Every contributing factor, every reform and conversion, will lead to the support of pro-life legislation and pro-life politicians. and so on and so on.

Ah, you got me long winded. I don't want to vote for McCain, who promised to keep us in Iraq for 100 years, if necessary, not to mention our disagreements on manyyy other issues. When our movement grows, America will grow, and Obama wouldn't be comfortable passing aggressive abortion legislation because America wouldn't support it.

But I'll shut up now. You can go back to your insults if you need to.

responsively? lol. Responsibly.**

.... this is nothing more than race baiting, a quickness to accuse people of racism who have been very respectful to her.

Posted by: jasper at March 6, 2008 3:34 PM
..............................

My my my. A disrespectful moderator giving a lecture on respecting others. You funny.

I have many of my own ideas how to make this happen, but if it's just me it might take a while. But I believe it starts a conversation at a time, an exchange of ideas, etc. Pregnancy aid becomes a policy in our schools and colleges. Universal health care will provide prenatal care and the birth control to those who need it. Comprehensive sex ed will teach our kids how to have sex responsively.

Posted by: prettyinpink at March 6, 2008 4:40 PM

Woo! Go PIP. You know, if you were the typical pro-lifer, I might even be tempted to convert. Frankly, if those were the policy goals that pro-lifers were focused on, I doubt that they would find a need to overturn Roe v. Wade, because the incidence of abortion would be so minimal.

PIP and Hieronymous, you guys live in a fantasy world. If you want to see the effect that those policies have on the number of abortions, just look at Europe. Is the incidence of abortion in Europe minimal? After all, they have universal health care, comprehensive sex ed for the children of stupid people, and an enormous welfare state.

We hear a lot of talk about how conservatives rarely have pro-life victories. Of course they don't; the pro-abortion liberals are pushing against them constantly. Look at how hard it was for us to ban even something as abominable as partial birth abortion. And why? Because Obama and his friends stood against us every step of the way.

PIP, it may be your opinion that Obama will help reduce abortion, but it's my opinion that you're being totally intellectually dishonest. I told you what Obama would do regarding abortion and you just ignored it, and went on to misconstrue something John McCain said in order to justify your support for Obama. As I said, go ahead and vote for Obama, but don't pretend you don't know what you're voting for. Open your eyes!

John-

I like many policies that Obama plans to put forth, and I dislike many of the policies McCain plans to put forth. See the difference?

Hier-
That's the plan, anyways. When it comes to a point where abortion is practically unneeded, we can pass pro-life legislation, no problem. And if we start on this stuff we can get it happening within the next few years. But then again, you need to have cooperation. A lot of institutions do oppose this kind of change, when there is no (logical) reason to.

John-

Here is another fun fantasy:

Our problems will go away if those friggin sluts will just keep their legs shut. We told them not to have sex, and they did. So they can just deal with it.

PIP and Hieronymous, you guys live in a fantasy world. If you want to see the effect that those policies have on the number of abortions, just look at Europe. Is the incidence of abortion in Europe minimal? After all, they have universal health care, comprehensive sex ed for the children of stupid people, and an enormous welfare state.

We hear a lot of talk about how conservatives rarely have pro-life victories. Of course they don't; the pro-abortion liberals are pushing against them constantly. Look at how hard it was for us to ban even something as abominable as partial birth abortion. And why? Because Obama and his friends stood against us every step of the way.

PIP, it may be your opinion that Obama will help reduce abortion, but it's my opinion that you're being totally intellectually dishonest. I told you what Obama would do regarding abortion and you just ignored it, and went on to misconstrue something John McCain said in order to justify your support for Obama. As I said, go ahead and vote for Obama, but don't pretend you don't know what you're voting for. Open your eyes!

Posted by: John Lewandowski at March 6, 2008 5:58 PM
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There are fewer abortions and a lower infant mortality rate in Finland and they've only been a country for ... less than 100 years? Finland enjoys the fastest growing economy in Europe. Children receive free education all the way through college. Stupid people? Cousin Osmo is a poly sci prof and a retired Naval Comadore. Then there is my stupid cousin the concert pianist and composer. And another that is a stupid footballer. The rest just hold stupid ordinary jobs and live stupid ordinary lives. Kinda like you and me. Only their education and health care are assured. Isn't that just so stupid!

John-

I like many policies that Obama plans to put forth, and I dislike many of the policies McCain plans to put forth. See the difference?

Hier-
That's the plan, anyways. When it comes to a point where abortion is practically unneeded, we can pass pro-life legislation, no problem. And if we start on this stuff we can get it happening within the next few years. But then again, you need to have cooperation. A lot of institutions do oppose this kind of change, when there is no (logical) reason to.

Posted by: prettyinpink at March 6, 2008 6:09 PM
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Making abortion unnecessary makes expensive law passing unnecessary. Of course it's still cheaper to pass unenforcable laws and pretend to have done something than it is to address the issues that make abortion necessary.
You go PIP! Talk is cheap and you are ready for action. We need more young women like you and Elizabeth asking pertinent questions of those that consider themselves authority.

Thanks Sally :)

"Woo! Go PIP. You know, if you were the typical pro-lifer, I might even be tempted to convert"

Me too. But I'm afraid Jasper is more typical in my experience.

Thanks Sally :)

Posted by: prettyinpink at March 6, 2008 6:31 PM
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No. Thank you! Young women like you make everything some of us old chicks had to put up with and fight against totally worth it.

PIP and Hieronymous, you guys live in a fantasy world. If you want to see the effect that those policies have on the number of abortions, just look at Europe. Is the incidence of abortion in Europe minimal? After all, they have universal health care, comprehensive sex ed for the children of stupid people, and an enormous welfare state.

Well, except that every report shows that the incidence of abortion in Western Europe is the lowest in the world. But why let silly facts get in the way of perfectly good hyperbole?

We hear a lot of talk about how conservatives rarely have pro-life victories. Of course they don't; the pro-abortion liberals are pushing against them constantly. Look at how hard it was for us to ban even something as abominable as partial birth abortion. And why? Because Obama and his friends stood against us every step of the way.

See, here's the thing John, mandates don't really work as well as actual solutions do. PiP seems to recognize that. You and your type of pro-lifer, on the other hand, would rather just legislate how everyone else should behave from on high, all the while refusing to recognize reality and circumstances that lead women to see abortion as a solution to their problems.

Me too. But I'm afraid Jasper is more typical in my experience.

Posted by: Hal at March 6, 2008 6:39 PM
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Jasper has anger and control issues. PIP is young and idealistic.

"Are you on crack Jasper? I really was just asking a question because I DON'T see the point of race being included in this article. If she can explain the POINT to me, then I'll be quiet..until then, well it looks like just what it is."

I'm sorry Elizabeth that your feelings were hurt. I doubt Jill has been keeping up with this thread, I think she's traveling today. You should email her: jillstanek@comcast.net

::cheers PiP on::

From some parable about pigs way the heck up there: you can never hire someone to provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself

Of course you can. I can hire an electrician to come in and do a quick wiring job for $75 or so, or I can spend hours of my time (which is not actually free) figuring out how to do it, and possibly creating a dangerous situation in the process. The former is cheaper by any rational measure.

I was disturbed by the title of this post as well. A "black heart" is a negative thing; it means that a person is evil. Can you see why it's problematic to use terminology in which "black" = "evil" in the title of a post that then goes on to talk (in negative terms) about black people?

Pfleger is a bold-faced liberal

OH NOES! LIBERALS!

"Me too. But I'm afraid Jasper is more typical in my experience."

I'm working on it, Hal ;)

Thanks for the support everyone- being the minority of the group (holla to Jen!) it can get hairy sometimes, but you know I think it is necessary. Pro-life shouldn't conjure up the idea "conservative religious Republican" it should stand on its own merit.

Oh, hey, PiP, Marysia and I are thinking about starting up a new feminist pro-life organization. If you're interested, click my name. :)

OK, let's be honest here. Do we really want to talk about the number one cause of abortion? I'll tell you what it is. It's the fact that abortion is legal. Because if it wasn't legal, most of the women who resort to it would instead seek adoption or financial services, WHICH ARE ALREADY PREVALENT AND NUMEROUS IN AMERICA. There are crisis pregnancy centers everywhere. There are churches willing to help women in need everywhere. There is a gigantic Welfare state (which Obama thinks isn't nearly big enough). Women aren't getting abortions because they don't have help available, but because the LIARS at Planned Parenthood tell them that they have no choice but to abort because there is no one to help them. All of this is done to achieve Planned Parenthood's goal of human population control.

Are women having abortions because they don't know that contraception exists? Nearly half of American women getting abortions are over age 25. Are you telling me that they don't know that condoms exist? And then there's my stupid parents comment which, of course, was misinterpreted. If these parents are so doggone intelligent, why aren't they teaching their own children about the wonders of contraception? Instead they rely on the government to do it for them. I wish we could do a poll of all the young women going into abortion clinics, and asking them if they know what condoms are. Then when 99% of them say "Of course I know what condoms are! I'm not stupid!", perhaps this insane argument that Americans are ignorant of birth control will come to an end.

We didn't put an end to slavery by going around telling people that slavery was bad. We put an end to slavery by outlawing it. We had the gall to force our laws down the throats of people who wanted to have the right to choose to own slaves and told them that nobody should ever have that right. And today in America, we don't have slavery.

There is no good reason for abortion to be legal in America today. No reason at all.

Hieronymous, it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE for you to say that you would consider joining the pro-life side if we had different tactics. There is only ONE good reason to be pro-life, and that reason is that abortion kills an innocent unborn human being. If you ignore the scientific reality that life begins at fertilization, then there is no reason for you to be pro-life.

And how about Finland? Is Finland the ultimate example of "safe, legal, and rare"? Well, there are about 10,000 abortions every year in Finland. Wow, ONLY 10,000, sounds great, right? Not really, but for the sake of argument, how does that compare to the USA?

You have to consider that there are only 5 million people living in Finland. Compare that with the 300 million in America; that's 60 times as many people. So multiply the number of abortions by 60 and you get 600,000 abortions. Well, I suppose that about 1,600 abortions per day would be considered EXTREMELY rare by Obama and friends, since they currently think that 4,000 abortions per day is "rare".

pip says,
1. There are other life issues besides abortion
2. There is little he can do and little he plans to do concerning abortion when he becomes president. As I've said before I"ve been to 2 rallies, none of which mentioned abortion at all.