Mourning has broken

From My Fox Colorado, March 3:

Commerce City Police are investigating the discovery of a fetus at a wastewater treatment plant....

sewer.jpg

A routine walk-through by a plant operator turned up a sad discovery... found amidst piles of garbage and human waste....

"Based on the size, we guess, it's was somewhere in the second trimester, somewhere between 4 to 6 months," says Commerce City police officer, Lanissa Blevens.

Police suspect it was most likely flushed....

But police say they may have a possible suspect. And what charges she faces for discarding her fetus, depends on whether it was capable of living outside the womb.

"If it wasn't viable, we're looking at charges of abuse of a corpse, to possible concealment of death," says Blevens.

If it was viable, the charges are much more severe, including possible homicide....

How can "it" be a "corpse"? Moreover, how can a blob of tissue be a "corpse"? But I digress.

Pro-abort responses to yesterday's post, "Caskets for miscarried babies," disgusted even me, and I have a high tolerance for ignorance. I awakened this morning to thoughts of those crude, cruel comments and decided to delete the lot of them. But alas, so many had already responded, I had to leave them on pathetic display.

I asked commenter and miscarriage expert Sandy to compose her thoughts on all this. Here they are....

The big secret is women deliver miscarried babies in homes, cars, workplaces, hotels, stores, on airplanes, and wherever and whenever a woman's body decides to take action and naturally end a pregnancy.

With regret many women flush their babies down the toilet because they are afraid and don't know what else to do, because they have never been informed what else to do.

caskets%204.jpg

Without knowing how this baby wound up in a sewage plant, one can only assume she was put there because the pro-choice movement dictated it....

They want the miscarriage experience to be kept hush, hush. They don't want pregnancy loss and grief brought to the fore. The pro-choice movement has fought legislation to address issues of disposition.

With few exceptions, there are no laws or medical standards of care regulating the disposition of miscarried babies. Families are left on their own to discern how best to dispose of their babies' remains. Hospitals routinely throw away babies as medical waste without parental knowledge if a D&C or induction has been performed.

Welcome, Heaven's Gain, which provides a much needed service to families who want more options other than to toss a baby down a sewage plant.

As proven on the thread last night; and right on cue, the pro-choice movement steps in to disparage anyone trying to assist these families with CHOICES on how to care for the baby they lost.

Pro-choicers accuse this man of being a scam artist by taking advantage of people's misfortune. But in their usual bad fashion, PCers steadfastly support those profiteering from desperate women getting abortions, including abortionists, medical personnel, contractors, medical suppliers, utility companies, waste disposal companies etc.

The service Heaven's Gain provides will help those who seek out a burial for their little ones. About 20% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. About 25% of all women experience a pregnancy loss. In the U.S. there are just under 1 million miscarriages each year. Kudos to Heaven's Gain for filling a much needed void.

Here's a thought. Pro-choicers claiming to support women with whatever they decide is best for them, should make donations to Heaven's Gain this year instead of Planned Parenthood. If they truly supported CHOICE, they would, to offer affordable or even free burial caskets for those families who make the CHOICE to bury their baby.

UPDATE, 5:15p: From the Denver Post, March 4:

The Adams County coroner's office has determined that a fetus found in a Commerce City sewage plant filter was a boy 15 to 17 weeks old....

Authorities still do not know exactly how the baby died or whether it was viable outside the womb. An autopsy with specialized tests could determine whether the baby died from a miscarriage or an abortion when its completed in four to six weeks....

Earlier in the day Commerce City police were still looking for a woman they think might be the mother....

A 911 call led police to the woman, whom police have not identified. Police are investigating a number of possible scenarios, some of which could constitute a crime....

Steve Frank, spokesman for Metro Wastewater Reclamation District, said the fetus was caught in a screen that normally snags cell phones, toys and other large items that wind up in toilets.

He said this was not the first time the plant has made such a discovery.

"It's not common, but it happens often enough that it's not uncommon," he said.

My guess? The mom was in the midst of an induced labor abortion, delivered a live baby at home, panicked, and called 911.

[HT for Fox and DP stories: reader Leslie]


Comments:

Without knowing how this baby wound up in a sewage plant, one can only assume she was put there because the pro-choice movement dictated it....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, we spend most of our days collecting fetuses and cramming them down the toilet.

"one can only assume?" Yeah, that's the only logical explaination.

Posted by: FetusFascist at March 5, 2008 4:59 PM


ROFL. Jill was disgusted with someone else's comments. If that ain't the definition of irony, then nothing is.

I'm thinking that if these pricey little boxes were really filling a much needed void, some entrepreneur would have come along and filled it a looooong time ago. Probably right around the time women started miscarrying.

Posted by: Hieronymous at March 5, 2008 5:11 PM


Yes, we spend most of our days collecting fetuses and cramming them down the toilet.

"one can only assume?" Yeah, that's the only logical explaination.

Posted by: FetusFascist at March 5, 2008 4:59 PM

No. your side spends most of your days sucking slicing, dicing and chopping babies to shreds.
You then collect them and cram them down garbage disposals.

RFF: It has been your side who will not acknowledge that these women need information, support and guidance when it comes to this very real issue.

Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 5:12 PM


FF, 4:59p, said: "Yes, we spend most of our days collecting fetuses and cramming them down the toilet."

I know you were trying to be funny, Laura. But how little you know the industry you support.

FYI, I'm posting an update on this story.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 5, 2008 5:16 PM


Maybe it was like the Indian train incident. Maybe she didn't know she was pregnant. Maybe she went temporaroly insane? How do you assume the pro-choice movement told her to? We're for CHOICE.

Posted by: Jess at March 5, 2008 5:17 PM


RFF: It has been your side who will not acknowledge that these women need information, support and guidance when it comes to this very real issue.

Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 5:12 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Really?
I know a number of women who have miscarried. They handled it like any emotionally healthy adult would. The miscarriage didn't consume their whole life - much less become a crusade. They just dealt with it and moved on.
Who's "guidance" do you think they need?

Posted by: FetusFascist at March 5, 2008 5:21 PM


I think that I will ignore the other comments before mine and actually stick to the topic at hand.
Thank you Sandy for your comments especially:

"Without knowing how this baby wound up in a sewage plant, one can only assume she was put there because the pro-choice movement dictated it....

They want the miscarriage experience to be kept hush, hush. They don't want pregnancy loss and grief brought to the fore."

I believe this is an accurate statement if one considers the illogic of the anti-life argument.

A woman CANNOT, must not and should not grieve the loss of an unborn baby through miscarriage according to some anti-lifers. And we did see comments by some anti-life women on this blog recently about how their miscarriages were inconsequential.
If women are "allowed" to grieve the loss of a baby through miscarriage, then it follows that the loss of an unwanted unborn baby of similar gestational age, through abortion, should also be "allowed" and acknowedged. This is exactly what these people do not want. Why grieve if it is in fact just random tissue being lost? But most women know they are not pregnant with random tissue, they are pregnant with a BABY.

Posted by: Patricia at March 5, 2008 5:22 PM



Maybe it was like the Indian train incident. Maybe she didn't know she was pregnant. Maybe she went temporaroly insane? How do you assume the pro-choice movement told her to? We're for CHOICE.

Posted by: Jess at March 5, 2008 5:17 PM

Jess,
At the point I commented I had no idea how the baby got there or who put it there. It sounds like we will soon find out. No matter though, this story brings up the issue of fetal disposition. You are taking my comments to literally. I did not accuse people on the pro-choice hotline of telling her what to do.

The bigger pictue is, this issue is real. The pro-choice movement doesn't like it to be real.
Pieces of legistlation to address this issue and like issues are constantly being challenged unfairly by the pro-choice movement.

If your side was really for a woman's choice, then they would support the women who choose to bury their babies instead of finding out later, they were tossed away in an incinerator with medical waste.

If this woman miscarried and flushed like many women do, is it fair that she be charged with a crime?????

Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 5:25 PM


I think women should be allowed to grieve a miscarriage in their own way. If they want to buy a coffin and have a wake and a funeral and a memorial service and dedicate a shrine in their family room to their deceased child then that's fine. Whatever helps them and their families.

Posted by: Jess at March 5, 2008 5:25 PM


Laura
You should know that like everything else in life, people's responses to something like miscarriage vary.
I had a friend who was pregnant in her early forties and miscarried. She was devastated. She already had 4 children but this baby was very much wanted. She went to hospital but did not take the unborn baby with her (she was 10 wks I think). She was afraid that the hospital would take the baby away and throw it out. All I know is that they had a lovely private ceremony. She was emotionally distraught for months afterwards and so was her husband.
Interestingly, her children saw their sibling and he was perfectly formed. Those 4 kids know a 10wk old unborn baby is not a bunch of cells.

Posted by: Patricia at March 5, 2008 5:28 PM


One of my Aunt's (Catholic, pro-life) miscarried and flushed the remains down the toilet. If I were to miscarry or have an abortion I would probably like it to be cremated and spread its ashes in a quiet, peaceful place and maybe put up a little stone or plant a bush in its memory.

Posted by: Jess at March 5, 2008 5:29 PM


Really?
I know a number of women who have miscarried. They handled it like any emotionally healthy adult would. The miscarriage didn't consume their whole life - much less become a crusade. They just dealt with it and moved on.
Who's "guidance" do you think they need?

Posted by: FetusFascist at March 5, 2008 5:21 PM

You probably have no idea what women you know went through because they would never tell you.
Your sensitivity would be underwhelming for sure.

Many women do miscarry and move on. That's great, but unfortunately, women miscarry babies in their home and have NO IDEA what to do. It is tramatic and just adds to their grief.

They need guidance on what to do with the baby for starters.

Don't you guide your clients who have lost pets options on disposal?

Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 5:29 PM


Jess
It's not that the "pro-choice" told her too - it's the mindset involved in the anti-life position.
If your side is so for choice, then why not allow debates, why not present ALL the options to pregnant women.
Off course they don't because womens right's are based on the platform of "reproductive rights" which mostly means having an abortion and because PP is a huge money-making, blood-sucking (sorry, no pun intended) machine who could care a rats-ass (my apologies) about ANY woman.

Posted by: Patricia at March 5, 2008 5:32 PM



I think women should be allowed to grieve a miscarriage in their own way. If they want to buy a coffin and have a wake and a funeral and a memorial service and dedicate a shrine in their family room to their deceased child then that's fine. Whatever helps them and their families.

Posted by: Jess at March 5, 2008 5:25 PM

Jess,
Thanks. Very much appreciated. Unfortunatley
many women don't ever get that chance because their babies are flushed away in a panic, or disposed of by hospitals without parental concent.

I also had friends and family who miscarried before I did and I was completely unsupportive.
I just didn't get it.
I had no idea how devestating it was for them.
I had no idea how devestating it would be for me.
Unless you have experienced miscarriage, don't anyone assume it is an easy thing to get over for everyone.

Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 5:36 PM


I'm for ALL choices. If we had universal health care and paid all the doctors all the same then we wouldn't have the problem of "selling" abortion.

Posted by: Jess at March 5, 2008 5:38 PM


Sandy, see maybe the woman who flushed her miscarried child was panicked. I don't think the hospitals should do that without the parents consent.

Posted by: Jess at March 5, 2008 5:41 PM


Sandy
I think you are probably correct that many women may not understand what it can be like to lose a baby through miscarriage.
I've been fortunate not to have had one, but I have friends who have had several including my friend that I wrote about who also miscarried twins and another who miscarried one twin - the other she gave birth to full term.
Mostly, I've tried to just listen and help them with their everyday things like the kids and so forth.

Posted by: Patricia at March 5, 2008 5:43 PM



Really?
I know a number of women who have miscarried. They handled it like any emotionally healthy adult would. The miscarriage didn't consume their whole life - much less become a crusade. They just dealt with it and moved on.
Who's "guidance" do you think they need?

Posted by: FetusFascist at March 5, 2008 5:21 PM

RFF:
BTW,
Your underlying tone that women who grieve over miscarriage are somehow emotionally unhealthy just proves how ignorant you are on this subject.

Many women take their experiences in many circumstances and make it a crusade to effect change to improve the status of issues that you now take advantage of.


Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 5:44 PM



Jill,

Not to be rude but i don't think its fair to assume that she had an abortion. Do you know what assume means? Assuming makes an ASS our of U and ME. Maybe she had a miscarriage, freaked out and called 911. Maybe she did have an abortion. Who knows. yes maybe time will tell.

I would have no idea what to do if I got pregnant and had a miscarriage. I imagine most women do not know what to do and "flush"

Posted by: JM at March 5, 2008 5:45 PM


The Adams County coroner's office has determined that a fetus found in a Commerce City sewage plant filter was a boy 15 to 17 weeks old....


Reading this absolutely makes my heart sink. I delivered a little boy at 17-18wks and I can tell you that the size alone of a baby at that gestation is NOT something anyone would consider flushing ... UNLESS you were attempting to hide or cover up for some reason. My son was 8-9 inches long and weighed almost a pound. I know all kinds of things are inadvertently flushed down the toilet (cell phones, hair brush, etc), but a 17 week baby is huge relative to those things. If she spontaneously went into labor and miscarried, I feel very certain she would not have flushed that away. I think it's much more likely that Jill is right and we will eventually find out this was something intentional.

Posted by: Kristi at March 5, 2008 5:51 PM


And you're right JM, that is an assumption. But I'm saying, based on my personal experience as one of the (rare) people who have seen and held a 17-18wk baby, that all emotions aside I can not imagine someone flushing that simply for practical reasons of size, sanitation, etc ... UNLESS like I said they were attemption to cover up for some reason.

Honestly if I can be frank for a moment, I'm actually SHOCKED that a fetus of that size made it through the plumbing and all the way down to the treatment plant. Again, having seen/held a child of that age, I can tell you he is actually much larger than most people think.

Posted by: Kristi at March 5, 2008 5:57 PM


Kristi
That's what I thought too. I'm sorry for your loss Kristi.

Posted by: Patricia at March 5, 2008 5:57 PM


Thank you Patricia. :)

Posted by: Kristi at March 5, 2008 6:14 PM


Sandy,
Thank you for your compassion! I was a lot disgusted by most of the comments that I had read. 5 years after my abortion(told it was just a clump of cells, tissue, a blob)I miscarried my baby into my hand. A perfectly formed little baby. I finally understood what I CHOSE to do. Horrifying to know that I killed my first child when the humanity of the baby I miscarried was unmistakable. I freaked out! I kept screaming My BABY!! My husband, bless his heart tried to help and told me to flush it down the toilet. Like a goldfish. I didn't want to but didn't know what else to do! I wasn't told a thing about it! Thank you for putting your words here. They echo so much of what I have been through.

Another thought-I wonder if we will start to see this happening more and more? I mean if women want to abort in the comfort of their own homes with drugs isn't this the likely outcome?

Posted by: Carla at March 5, 2008 6:20 PM


I was trying to look up pictures of a 15 week old fetus to get an idea of the size and I found this at one month: http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/on-line/lifecycle/images/1-2-3-1-5-0-0-0-0-0-0.jpg
and at six weeks:
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/2/2f/300px-Tubal_Pregnancy_with_embryo.jpg
And I couldn't not post this picture:
http://images.theglobeandmail.com/archives/RTGAM/images/20060218/wxheart0218/0218xander330.jpg

Posted by: Jess at March 5, 2008 6:27 PM


I don't want to say the wrong thing Carla but I think your children are both up in Heaven right now and you'll be able to hold them again one day.

Posted by: Jess at March 5, 2008 6:31 PM


There is a rumor going around mothers that I know that if you do have a miscarriage, and go to the hospital, they will take your baby and either a) dispose of him like biohazardous waste or b) cause much red tape and expense getting the body released. I don't know if this is true, just what more than one woman I know believe.

BTW - The Commerce City Wastewater treatment plant is just a stone's throw from the Planned Parenthood site - maybe 5 miles, tops? Look for more of that happening in the future.

Posted by: Milehimama at March 5, 2008 6:36 PM


Oh Jess,
I know that, sweetie. :) Aubrey, Jamie and Lee wait for their Momma in heaven. What a reunion that will be!

Posted by: Carla at March 5, 2008 6:38 PM


"I didn't want to but didn't know what else to do! I wasn't told a thing about it! "

Thats what I mean... maybe this women didn't know what to do either.

I have never been pregnant so I obviously haven't had a miscarriage. I can't even imagine the pain and sadness those who have must feel. I wish there was a way people could be more educated on miscarriage, like how to respond to those who have had them and are still grieving. I know I have told Bethany this story but when my cousin was pregnant there was a chance her child would have birth defects because of medication she was taking. When she miscarried her mother said something along the lines, "well you must be a little relieved" She wasn't trying to be mean or heartless (I know my aunt and shes not like that) I just don't think she knew how to respond. I don't think she realized how a statement like that could hurt.

Posted by: JM at March 5, 2008 6:42 PM


For those of you that have lost due to miscarriage I am terribly sorry.

Posted by: JM at March 5, 2008 6:44 PM



And you're right JM, that is an assumption. But I'm saying, based on my personal experience as one of the (rare) people who have seen and held a 17-18wk baby, that all emotions aside I can not imagine someone flushing that simply for practical reasons of size, sanitation, etc ... UNLESS like I said they were attemption to cover up for some reason.

Honestly if I can be frank for a moment, I'm actually SHOCKED that a fetus of that size made it through the plumbing and all the way down to the treatment plant. Again, having seen/held a child of that age, I can tell you he is actually much larger than most people think.

Posted by: Kristi at March 5, 2008 5:57 PM

Hi Kristi,
So sorry for your loss. It is amazing that this can happen. I know of a woman who lost her little one in a Wal Mart toilet and flushed. She was 18 weeks pregnant and didn't know what to do. I am was also very surprised a baby of that size could make it through the system.

I also read on a blog that a woman who I believe was 14 weeks flushed her baby because she didn't know what else to do and panicked. They had to call the plumber the next day. They were so scared and didn't know if they were going to be in trouble. I don't know what happened.

There is just not enough discussion, education and societal support for women who experience loss. I know Colorado has now a law in place to notify parents in a hospital setting of their options.

Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 6:45 PM


Thank you JM.

Posted by: Carla at March 5, 2008 6:46 PM


My guess? The mom was in the midst of an induced labor abortion, delivered a live baby at home, panicked, and called 911.

.................

Miscarriage expert? What are Sandy's credentials? How about just being honest and say that you are spinning an incident you have no knowledge of into a conjecture that might pretend to make some kind of case for your anti-choice, anti-woman obsessions?

Posted by: Sally at March 5, 2008 6:47 PM


I think that sometimes the grief due to miscarriage is almost worse than grieving the death of a brother, sister, or another loved one.
People don't know what to say. When they do talk they often say things not meant to be hurtful, such as "How long before you try again," or "Well, it's probably better this way..."
The grief is often hidden, and women usually will only tell a select few about it. There is not usually a funeral or public ceremony. Most people don't get it.

And, in addition, the mother has physical and hormonal issues of her own to get through in addition to the emotional stuff.

I have been pregnant 10 times and have 7 living children...but I don't usually tell people that because the grief is still so private.

Posted by: Milehimama at March 5, 2008 6:48 PM


There is a rumor going around mothers that I know that if you do have a miscarriage, and go to the hospital, they will take your baby and either a) dispose of him like biohazardous waste or b) cause much red tape and expense getting the body released. I don't know if this is true, just what more than one woman I know believe.

Posted by: Milehimama at March 5, 2008 6:36 PM

Milehimama,
This is no rumor. It is very typical for hospitals to react this way to miscarriage. They must release babies who are stillborn (over 20 weeks, but there are no standards of care set for babies who are miscarried (under 20 weeks)
Most often they are sent to the incenerator with other medical waste.

It just depends on which hospital you go to and what their policy states.

Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 6:49 PM



Sandy,
Thank you for your compassion! I was a lot disgusted by most of the comments that I had read. 5 years after my abortion(told it was just a clump of cells, tissue, a blob)I miscarried my baby into my hand. A perfectly formed little baby. I finally understood what I CHOSE to do. Horrifying to know that I killed my first child when the humanity of the baby I miscarried was unmistakable. I freaked out! I kept screaming My BABY!! My husband, bless his heart tried to help and told me to flush it down the toilet. Like a goldfish. I didn't want to but didn't know what else to do! I wasn't told a thing about it! Thank you for putting your words here. They echo so much of what I have been through.

Another thought-I wonder if we will start to see this happening more and more? I mean if women want to abort in the comfort of their own homes with drugs isn't this the likely outcome?

Posted by: Carla at March 5, 2008 6:20 PM
I have read stories of women who choose the meds to abort and have experienced this same situation, however they are in a different place and the babies are much much smaller as they can only use those drugs up to a certain gesational age.

Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 6:51 PM


Milehimama,

Sorry for your loss... I completely agree with your 6:48 post...

I don't think my aunt meant to be hurtful by any means...

Posted by: Anonymous at March 5, 2008 6:53 PM


anonymous was me

Posted by: JM at March 5, 2008 6:54 PM


I think that sometimes the grief due to miscarriage is almost worse than grieving the death of a brother, sister, or another loved one.

Are you sure you don't mean the reactions of other people? I have a hard time thinking that the actual grief is worse.

I have had four pregnancies. Two ended in miscarriage, both around 6 weeks. Was I sad? Yes. But I wasn't grieving the loss of a child. I had just hit the point where the pregnancy was getting "real" and starting to make plans accordingly. But I didn't have a "child" to grieve over. I hadn't fed, dressed, or comforted it. I hadn't watched it sleep or changed its diaper or anything. All I had was the potential of a child, but no actual child.

Now, if I were to lose one of my daughters, who I have gone through all of those things with, I don't think my grief would ever stop. I would probably cry every day for the rest of my life.

Posted by: Hieronymous at March 5, 2008 6:55 PM


Miscarriage expert? What are Sandy's credentials? How about just being honest and say that you are spinning an incident you have no knowledge of into a conjecture that might pretend to make some kind of case for your anti-choice, anti-woman obsessions?

Posted by: Sally at March 5, 2008 6:47 PM

No one spinning here Sally but you. It is your side that wants to pretend this issue doesn't occur. It's your anti-choice, anti-woman attitude that leaves women miscarrying at home with little to no information and not knowing what to do with a baby they dearly wanted. It is your side that has taken babies away from families in a hospital setting and disposed of them as medical waste because that is what your side does.

You don't want women to acknowledge their baby because it personifies this "glob of tissue." You don't want women to grieve over their baby because it means that society must start recognizing that these babies mean more to women than you want to admit.

You need to remember that pro-choice women are put into this situation as well and need the same help and guidance. This issue is a woman's health issue. Your side has politicized it needlessly.

Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 6:59 PM


Hieronnymous,

I can see Milehimama point of view though. There is no funeral, no wake, no goodbye.


Posted by: JM at March 5, 2008 6:59 PM


Carla, Milehimama, Kristi, and H.
I am sorry for your losses.
Our stories are all examples of how women greive differently based on our own life experiences.
About 25% of women who miscarry don't experience it as being a traumatic event.

This issue is becoming more relevant to women of today because:

We aren't having as many babies as we used to so each pregancy expectation is hightened.

Technology has been a great educational tool and has provided a window into the women's uterus so we can see how babies grow.

Women are waiting longer to get pregnant, thus the miscarriage rates will follow as women get into their advanced maternal ages.

The internet is available 24/7 with websites that will inform you of your babies development week by week.

Women can take a pregnancy test prior to missing their first period and which allows women to bond with their babies much sooner than ever before.

Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 7:12 PM


Patricia,
Thanks for your comments of support. You have done a good job of understanding this issue which is a great help to women!!

Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 7:14 PM


It was nice to comment and feel supported. That doesn't happen a lot around here. :)

Posted by: Carla at March 5, 2008 7:19 PM


Sandy - I've noticed that you and I don't often agree, but I do want to comment about one thing. I agree that almost everything surrounding women's reproductive health has been overly politicized, and I think it's a damn shame. I hesitate to say that it's only the pro-choice side that's doing it though. I think that as long as the issue of abortion is being used as a political football, we're not going to see much progress on that front though.

Posted by: Hieronymous at March 5, 2008 7:23 PM


There is just not enough discussion, education and societal support for women who experience loss. I know Colorado has now a law in place to notify parents in a hospital setting of their options.

Sandy I absolutely agree. It is understandable (and almost expected) for a woman to panic and flush b/c no one has ever discussed any other option with her.

I am shocked to hear those stories of second trimester babies flushed like that. I'm astounded honestly. Ugh, I think I'm gonna have nightmares about that tonight. Knowing that I must admit it is certainly a possibility that the woman in this story perhaps miscarried naturally. But my gut feeling is still with Jill that there's more to it than that...

I guess we shall see.... it takes forever for those pathology reports to come back!

Posted by: Kristi at March 5, 2008 7:25 PM



Sandy - I've noticed that you and I don't often agree, but I do want to comment about one thing. I agree that almost everything surrounding women's reproductive health has been overly politicized, and I think it's a damn shame. I hesitate to say that it's only the pro-choice side that's doing it though. I think that as long as the issue of abortion is being used as a political football, we're not going to see much progress on that front though.

Posted by: Hieronymous at March 5, 2008 7:23 PM
H,
Thanks. I have always felt that this is one issue that can and should be respected and not politicized.
It really is a womens' health issue that effects everyone. This is just one of many reasons I don't understand the "pro-choice" mantra and how the Pcers state they are more concerned about women's health than Plers.

If they were, support of pregnancy loss issues would be high on their list since it effects so many women.

We tried to pass laws in our state to help these women and the pro-choice side got to the issue before we even had a chance. Issues dealing with pregnancy loss tend to get hi-jacked.

Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 7:36 PM


"It was nice to comment and feel supported. That doesn't happen a lot around here. :)"

what do you mean Carla? I believe the pro-lifers around here have supported you?

Posted by: jasper at March 5, 2008 8:18 PM


The Adams County coroner's office has determined that a fetus found in a Commerce City sewage plant filter was a boy 15 to 17 weeks old.... Authorities still do not know exactly how the baby died or whether it was viable outside the womb.

LOL. If it was 15-17 weeks, it was NOT viable.

"It's not common, but it happens often enough that it's not uncommon," he said.

It certainly is. Just do a Google News search for "fetus" and you'll usually turn up lots of these stories.

Without knowing how this baby wound up in a sewage plant, one can only assume she was put there because the pro-choice movement dictated it.... They want the miscarriage experience to be kept hush, hush. They don't want pregnancy loss and grief brought to the fore. The pro-choice movement has fought legislation to address issues of disposition.

LOLOLOL!!! Oh my, what a pantload. You know, outlawing abortion would only serve to make miscarriage even more hush-hush, as doctors would be forced to treat miscarriage patients like murder suspects.

Posted by: reality at March 5, 2008 8:33 PM


no it wouldn't reality, but if the women delivers a baby that is alive, do you think that baby deserves care?

Posted by: jasper at March 5, 2008 8:38 PM


You know the PCers I mean, Jasper. Not the Prolifers. :)

Posted by: Carla at March 5, 2008 8:48 PM


LOLOLOL!!! Oh my, what a pantload. You know, outlawing abortion would only serve to make miscarriage even more hush-hush, as doctors would be forced to treat miscarriage patients like murder suspects.

Posted by: reality at March 5, 2008 8:33 PM

So prior to Roe V Wade were women arrested and jailed for miscarrying?

Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 8:48 PM


For Jess, regarding socialized medicine. There is a cost containment problem and this is why the Royal College of Medicine is recommending to kill defective newborn humans. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article625477.ece
From another article: "The report said the terminations were "predominantly on account of congenital anomalies", which may be life-threatening but which can also include problems such as cleft palate and club feet."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=512129&in_page_id=1774
It continues--"Guidance from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists recommends babies over 22 weeks which survive abortion should have their hearts stopped by lethal injection but this can be a difficult procedure for doctors."


There's a reason for recommending that babies with treatable defects be aborted in the UK. The socialized medical system is insolvent. So I recommend that people firmly obtain a grasp on reality, and understand that while cleft palate is treatable in the Philippines, it's a reason to kill a kid in the UK. Socialized medicine will not reduce abortion.

Posted by: KB at March 5, 2008 9:03 PM


My guess? The mom was in the midst of an induced labor abortion, delivered a live baby at home, panicked, and called 911.

Do you mean the doctor could have sent her home to abort at such a late point in gestation?
. . . . . . . . . . . . .

LOLOLOL!!! Oh my, what a pantload. You know, outlawing abortion would only serve to make miscarriage even more hush-hush, as doctors would be forced to treat miscarriage patients like murder suspects.

Reality,
I guess it would be best for a woman to see a gynecologist who doesn't do abortions to avoid any accusation of impropriety on her part or the doctor's part in the case of miscarriage. Right?

Posted by: Janet at March 5, 2008 9:07 PM


Someone clear this up-

"Reading this absolutely makes my heart sink. I delivered a little boy at 17-18wks and I can tell you that the size alone of a baby at that gestation is NOT something anyone would consider flushing ... UNLESS you were attempting to hide or cover up for some reason. My son was 8-9 inches long and weighed almost a pound. "

OR


"Your baby at week 16 (14 weeks after conception)
-------------------------------------------

Sixteen weeks into your pregnancy, your baby is between 4 and 5 inches long and weighs a bit less than 3 ounces."

Posted by: FetusFascist at March 5, 2008 9:14 PM


FF - maybe she meant 17-18 weeks post-conception? That would be about 19-20 weeks as they count from the last menstrual period.

I dunno.

Posted by: Hieronymous at March 5, 2008 10:05 PM


Carla, Milehimama, Kristi, and H.,
I am sorry for your losses. I am
also glad to see people supporting each
other. I also experienced miscarriages and
it was painful. It is not really talked about
among women even though it is becoming more
of an occurrence. It is good to see people
talking about it and sharing.

Posted by: Tracy Z. at March 5, 2008 10:27 PM


Having been a plumber I can tell you that a fetus that size will not go down standard sized drain lines.

Pretty ironic about PP being a few miles away.

FF: You wear your lack of compassion and your sickening vulgarity like a badge. I've met rattlesnakes with more heart.

Posted by: Mike at March 5, 2008 10:36 PM


Carla, I love the name Aubrey...if I have another baby girl that's the name I want her to have. Hehe, Gabriella and Aubrey..I love it.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 5, 2008 10:40 PM


"Paid all the doctors the same".

What an absolutely assinine comment.

Universal Health Care would result is the very best doctors starting clinics off-shore as in cruise ships or places like the Bahamas. The "rich" would then simply pay for their own health care out of their own pockets and we common folk would be left with the mediocre doctors and a shortage of 'em at that.

You liberals crack me up. How can so many millions of people be so stupid?

Posted by: HisMan at March 6, 2008 12:23 AM


HUH! We have the legalized killing of 1.3 million babies annually. This girl will probably skate just like that nutty Christi Freeman and so many others like her. Abortion has made incidents like these "acceptable" with little to no punishment for the women involved. I pray that society will wake up and start tossing these chicks in the slammer. That's where they belong! America has become desensitized.

Posted by: heather at March 6, 2008 12:54 AM


However, if this was a miscarriage, that would be different. [had to clear that up]

Posted by: heather at March 6, 2008 12:58 AM


I would be lying if I said I read every word of every post before writing this, but...

The bottom line is Colorado law requires you report any termination of pregnancy within 5 days. This info may be medical in nature, but it eliminates the possibility that a blantant crime as been committed.

I know it is hard for the general public to concede, but boyrfiends, family members, ect... actually induce pregnancy by means of force as a form of retaliation. Don't believe me? 13 years of law enforcement says the truth. I have been to call of sisters fighting where one kicks an 8 month pregnant female in the abdomen intentionally because she is "pissed off".

The facts are facts, law enforcement has an obligation to determine if there was criminal activity. You can be pro-choice or pro-life...facts remain that without the truth, this case will continue to be a criminal investiagation...and it should.

Posted by: Greg at March 6, 2008 1:57 AM


Oops...typo. My post should be induce an abortion vs. induce pregnacy.

Sorry...late here!

Posted by: Greg at March 6, 2008 2:00 AM


Jesus said to the Jews:
“If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is not true.
But there is another who testifies on my behalf,
and I know that the testimony he gives on my behalf is true.
You sent emissaries to John, and he testified to the truth.
I do not accept human testimony,
but I say this so that you may be saved.
He was a burning and shining lamp,
and for a while you were content to rejoice in his light.
But I have testimony greater than John’s.
The works that the Father gave me to accomplish,
these works that I perform testify on my behalf
that the Father has sent me.
Moreover, the Father who sent me has testified on my behalf.
But you have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
and you do not have his word remaining in you,
because you do not believe in the one whom he has sent.
You search the Scriptures,
because you think you have eternal life through them;
even they testify on my behalf.
But you do not want to come to me to have life.

“I do not accept human praise;
moreover, I know that you do not have the love of God in you.
I came in the name of my Father,
but you do not accept me;
yet if another comes in his own name,
you will accept him.
How can you believe, when you accept praise from one another
and do not seek the praise that comes from the only God?
Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father:
the one who will accuse you is Moses,
in whom you have placed your hope.
For if you had believed Moses,
you would have believed me,
because he wrote about me.
But if you do not believe his writings,
how will you believe my words?”

John 5:31-47

Posted by: truthseeker at March 6, 2008 2:51 AM



Hey hisman,

I'm a liberal and I don't think all doctors should be paid the same. I'm not sure I really agree with Hilliary's "universal health care" either. Thats the beauty of being able to think for yourself. Just because you're titled "liberal" doesn't mean you have to agree or disagree with everything liberals say or think.

Posted by: JM at March 6, 2008 6:42 AM


Thank you for your kind words Tracy Z. I am so sorry for your losses as well. ((Hugs))

Posted by: Carla at March 6, 2008 6:55 AM


Sixteen weeks into your pregnancy, your baby is between 4 and 5 inches long and weighs a bit less than 3 ounces."
Posted by: FetusFascist at March 5, 2008 9:14 PM

Laura,
Would you like for me to forward you a copy of the pathology report on my son? Like I said before, he was 18weeks gestation (not 16), about 8+inches long, and weighed almost a pound.

Please concede for once that you are not the expert on EVERYTHING.

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 7:15 AM


Posted by: Tracy Z. at March 5, 2008 10:27 PM

Ditto, Tracy, I'm sorry for your loss. Thank you for your sweet words. We don't see alot of sweet words around here somethimes, it's refreshing!

:)

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 7:18 AM


Kristi,
I love how you love your son. It touches this momma's heart. :)

Posted by: Carla at March 6, 2008 8:10 AM


:)thank you Carla!!!

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 8:29 AM


Having been a plumber I can tell you that a fetus that size will not go down standard sized drain lines.
Posted by: Mike at March 5, 2008 10:36 PM


Hi Mike! Good to hear it from a plumber's perspective. This is the point I was trying to make by describing the size of my baby boy when he was born around 18wks ... just to say I'm totally shocked to hear that a child of that size could/would be flushed away like that. Shocked (1) that it's even possible due to size and (2)that a mom would do that unless she was attempting to cover something up. Though Sandy has stepped in with a few examples of panicked and distraught women who flushed babies that size after a natural miscarriage. So I guess that disproves my feelings on (2), and now we're just left with (1)... I'm shocked that this was even possible.

Ugh this is so distressing to think about.

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 8:41 AM


Hi Kristi,
I wonder too, if the woman's baby who was 18 weeks along had stopped developing at a couple weeks earlier. Although she did flush at a store site, it could be their higher powered systems could handle it better than at home.
I can't even believe we have to be talking about this:(

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 9:13 AM


16 WEEKS AFTER CONCEPTION
(18 WEEKS AFTER THE LAST MENSTRUAL PERIOD)

The fetus is about 5 ˝ inches long and weighs between 6 and 7 ounces.

Posted by: FetusFascist at March 6, 2008 9:56 AM


Attention Everyone,
Laura has spoken.

Posted by: Carla at March 6, 2008 10:59 AM


Nope, I quoted that from one of those "what to expect when you're expecting" sites.

Posted by: FetusFascist at March 6, 2008 11:10 AM


And your point is??
To dis Kristi? She knows the size of her son better than you, I would wager.

Posted by: Carla at March 6, 2008 11:30 AM


From early on in pregnancy, babies grow at different rates, so these numbers are merely averages. Your baby's actual length and weight may vary substantially. Don't worry too much if an ultrasound indicates that your baby is much smaller or larger. (Your practitioner will let you know if it's time to worry about how big your baby is.) By full-term, your baby may end up weighing less than 5 pounds or more than 9.

Source BabyCenter.com


RFF:
I guess you decided this information was unimportant.

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 11:43 AM


16 WEEKS AFTER CONCEPTION
(18 WEEKS AFTER THE LAST MENSTRUAL PERIOD)
The fetus is about 5 ˝ inches long and weighs between 6 and 7 ounces.
Posted by: FetusFascist at March 6, 2008 9:56

Laura, for goodness sake, GIVE IT UP. I don't give a rat's patooty what the "what to expect when your expecting" site says about it ..... I WAS THERE. I saw him with my own eyes, I held him with my own hands, and the PATHOLOGIST (ya know, an ACTUAL expert) who examined him took those measurements and included them in the pathology report. I highly doubt the pathologist manipulated the results as part of a vast right-wing fetus-conspiracy just so that I could annoy you a year and a half later with truthful measurements. That would require that the whole world revolves around Laura, which (*gasp*) it does not.

Why does this bother you so much, Laura? Why do you continue to trample on the grief of women who have lost very wanted children and expect that somehow that will win points for your side? And specifically, why do you find it necessary to repeatedly belittle my child's existance and insinuate that if he were smaller he would be less of a person?

I'VE GOT NEWS FOR YOU, Laura, Isaac is my CHILD. Yes, he was smaller than a full-term child. But his size does not determine his humanity. I don't care if he was 2 MILIMETERS long, he was still a PERSON. The truth that he was in fact 8 inches long when he died is completely irrelevant to his personhood.

I was earlier pointing out his size as a general reference so that others could get a rough idea of how big the child found in the wastewater treatment plant would have been. Yes, obviously there are variations. There are "averages", and there is a RANGE of size possibilities with every child. You can google your heart out for all I care, but you'll likely find a range of ESTIMATES from online sources as to the size of an 18week baby. That does not mean that variations do not occur and it certainly does not mean that it gives you a right to come here and spew your angry insinuations like I'm lying about something so dear and important to me.

Go bark up another tree now, 'cause I'm not playing this game with you.

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 11:59 AM


My first child at birth weighed about 5 lbs and she was 18"long .... Laura, will you be needing verification of that as well? Photographic evidence? Medical records? Hospital affidavits? Or perhaps a birth certificate would suffice?

She was, afterall, a different size than the average .... so surely this must mean I'm making the whole thing up.

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 12:14 PM


DOCTOR: "Congratulations, Ms. Laura, it's a boy!! He weighs 9lbs and he's healthy!!!"

FF: "You LIAR, how dare you!!! Babycenter.com said the baby weighs exactly 7lbs 2.4oz."


Maybe ALL medical personnel are part of the vast right wing fetus-conspiracy.

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 12:17 PM


Or wait, even better ....

DOCTOR: "Congratulations, Ms. Laura, it's a boy!!! He weighs only 3lbs, but he's staying strong and soon he will be big and healthy!!"

FF: "You LIAR, how dare you!!! That's not a real baby, he's too small to be a person, that's only a fetus!!!" (*throws baby in the waste receptacle*)

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 12:21 PM


Kristi,
Isn't it interesting that someone who has herself sterilized would be so concerned about reproduction and want to be so much the "expert" on all related issues?

She knows it all: miscarriage, pregnancy, infant mortality, childbirth, stillborn.

She has NEVER experienced any of the above, but just seems to know everything you would ever possibly want or need to know.

I wonder if she secretly cries herself to sleep everynight because more than anything in the world she wants to have children. She can't now, and takes her spiteful hatred out on women who choose to have children.


Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 12:33 PM


: Sandy at March 6, 2008 12:33 PM

Yes, Sandy, good point. Maybe that's it. I've always wondered why Laura has such a strange obsession with being the expert on all reproductive issues.

Maybe she should change her name to Dr. Laura. Or Dr. FF. After all, no real medical degree is required ... we see the abortionist quacks she defends and honors don't even need medical licences to practice.

!!!!gasp!!!! OMG, maybe Dr. Laura could become an abortionist!! That way she could put her extensive knowledge and reproductive expertise to great use!

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 12:48 PM


Definately pays way better than the animal rescue thing.

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 12:49 PM


AND.... added bonus ... she could fight the vast right wing dr fetus-conspiracy from the inside.

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 12:52 PM


Kristi,
She is the perfect epitome of the "woman-hater" that pro-choicers love to call pro-lifers. I have never met anyone who loves to antagonize women with her ultra superior attitude and hateful spew of crap.

Speaking of crap......would love....to....go..tell...her...to...clean.....
out.....the....
Argh! but I can't.

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 12:54 PM


Kristi,
I love the name Isaac!! Sweet baby boy.

I couldn't help laughing at "vast right-wing fetus conspiracy."

Posted by: Carla at March 6, 2008 12:56 PM


I think the normal range of responses to miscarriage is great. Just like the normal range of intelligence is great. The response seems to vary from serious grief and depression to dissapointment or for some even relief.

I think it is wrong to ridicule someone because their reaction is not like someone else's. I don't think people feel better by having people tell them that someone else dealt with it and so should they.

I resist and even resent this pressure that we all have to be the same to be normal.

If someone wants to bury their premature baby, why does anyone need to deride that?

Posted by: hippie at March 6, 2008 12:56 PM


Kristi,
I love the name Isaac!! Sweet baby boy.


Thank you Carla. :) He is named after the Old Testament Isaac.

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 1:05 PM


Hippie,
Great comments. We will all grieve differently in every difficult situation. Our past life expeiences play a significant role in our grief.
You are correct in stating that miscarriage may not be a traumatic event for some women, but can be horribly devestating for others.

How the miscarriage plays out will also be a factor in someone's grief process.

I have done an extensive research study on women who have miscarried, and we found out that just under 50% of all women will leave their doctors after a miscarriage due to a lack of medical and/or emotional support.

There is such a dearth of information made available to women on miscarriage and because we as a society don't speak much of it, women are left on their own most often to go through the process.

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 1:07 PM


If someone wants to bury their premature baby, why does anyone need to deride that?
Posted by: hippie at March 6, 2008 12:56 PM


Agreed, hippie. Especially when those objecting claim to be all about women's "choice".

There is no "right" way to grieve, that much I can say for certain!

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 1:08 PM


Sandy at March 6, 2008 1:07 PM

VERY TRUE...

And I was one of those 50% ... I just found a whole new team of doctors and will hopefully never have to set foot back in that dreadful hospital where I unfortunately delivered Isaac.

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 1:11 PM


Kristi,
So sorry to hear that your experience with your hospital was not a good one. It is so hard to go through a pregnancy loss and then not have decent support from the people you are relying on the most to get you through. Unfortunately this is so common. I would appreciate the chance to learn about your experience. We have a wonderful initiative in the works right now in my area. I would love to get your thoughts. Bethany can get you my e-mail if you are interested.

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 1:20 PM


Sure, sounds great Sandy.

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 1:22 PM


Thanks Kristi!
The only way we can make positive change is by learning from women who have gone through the experience. There is so much work to be done in this area, but we have a great advocate on our side who is committed to working with us to ensure better care for women and families.

Again, I am so sorry for your loss.

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 1:29 PM



Sandy - I've noticed that you and I don't often agree, but I do want to comment about one thing. I agree that almost everything surrounding women's reproductive health has been overly politicized, and I think it's a damn shame. I hesitate to say that it's only the pro-choice side that's doing it though. I think that as long as the issue of abortion is being used as a political football, we're not going to see much progress on that front though.

Posted by: Hieronymous at March 5, 2008 7:23 PM

As much as you may believe abortion should be legal, people who disagree are not playing some kind of game. We feel that unborn children are people whose rights are being denied.

Our political system allows for redress of grievances. The political arena is the appropriate place for discussion of such issues.

As far as progress on the issue, it reminds me of the slavery issue in as much as the supreme court decided in favor of slave holders and there was nothing the slaves could do to be heard in court. Unfortunately slavery was not abolished until the civil war and the amendment banning slavery had to be passed under less than ideal circumstances. Some states only ratified the amendment later in the 20th century.

Posted by: hippie at March 6, 2008 1:53 PM


Have you seen the movie Amazing Grace? The story of William Wilberforce? Excellent.

Posted by: Carla at March 6, 2008 2:42 PM


Found this comment while reading through a very very old post, and thought it was appropriate to repost here:

Are you trying to tell me that size matters to God? Well what about the size of the planet earth compared to the size of the universe? It's a meaningless speck using a pro-abort's analogy and narrow view. In God's view, the earth is of utmost value. Size does not matter to God and the only thing that gives value to anything or anyone is what God thinks about it, not us.

He cares about sparrows too I'm told.

A baby at conception is no different than a baby at 39.999999 weeks.

There's no difference to God, therefore, there should be not difference to us.

God sees a soul and so should we. Souls are infinite and not subject to the confines of space and time and stages of development.

Posted by: His Man at April 11, 2007 6:04 PM

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 5:04 PM


I think the normal range of responses to miscarriage is great. Just like the normal range of intelligence is great. The response seems to vary from serious grief and depression to dissapointment or for some even relief.

I think it is wrong to ridicule someone because their reaction is not like someone else's. I don't think people feel better by having people tell them that someone else dealt with it and so should they.

I resist and even resent this pressure that we all have to be the same to be normal.

If someone wants to bury their premature baby, why does anyone need to deride that?

Posted by: hippie at March 6, 2008 12:56 PM
...............................................................

Most communities have laws concerning the burial of human and even animal remains. Bio hazard and all that. There are pet graveyards. Beloved companions. If someone wishes to bury a miscarried embryo, go for it. Seems like an unnecessary expense to me. If you all get your way, I guess it will be mandatory. A boon for the funeral and burial industry. But then, I suppose that life insurance will be available for embryos too. When does this all become rather absurd? Burying zygotes?
Have any of you really seriously considered the repercussions of declaring zygotes to be equal to individual human beings? There are very practical and logical reasons in drawing the line at successful birth.

Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 5:41 PM


There is no such thing as a "soul."

Posted by: phylosopher at March 6, 2008 6:02 PM


If someone wants to bury their premature baby, why does anyone need to deride that?
Posted by: hippie at March 6, 2008 12:56 PM


Agreed, hippie. Especially when those objecting claim to be all about women's "choice".

There is no "right" way to grieve, that much I can say for certain!

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 1:08 PM
.......................................

I have felt no need to grieve a miscarriage. Insisting that I or anyone else must have or even should have become invested emotionally is sheer abusiveness. I come from an older generation where women experienced many failed pregnancies. There was a very clear difference between giving birth to a child and losing a pregnancy or birthing a stillborn. You saved your emotion for those that were going to need it. Certainly not grieving what might have been. Sound cold? Women needed to be practical.

Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 6:04 PM


If you all get your way, I guess it will be mandatory. A boon for the funeral and burial industry.
Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 5:41 PM


Sally, can you read??? What I said was women should be given the CHOICE to do so IF SHE WANTS TO. Others here have said similar things. Not a single person on this entire blog has ever even HINTED or suggested that any such thing would be MANDATORY. Stop being such a drama queen!!!

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 6:27 PM


I have felt no need to grieve a miscarriage. Insisting that I or anyone else must have or even should have become invested emotionally is sheer abusiveness. I come from an older generation where women experienced many failed pregnancies. There was a very clear difference between giving birth to a child and losing a pregnancy or birthing a stillborn. You saved your emotion for those that were going to need it. Certainly not grieving what might have been. Sound cold? Women needed to be practical.

Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 6:04 PM

So don't grieve for a miscarriage. No one said you must. No one insists that you do. Read the posts again Sally. It's been acknowledge that some women don't see it as a traumatic loss, but 75% do see it as a loss and should be allowed to grieve over it in anyway that desire.

I explained earlier in the post why miscarriage has become more relevant to women today. I think you ignored that. You have selective reading and comprehension skills.

If you have a daughter, sister, cousin, grandaughter that miscarries and is grieving?
What will you say to them?
DON'T BOTHER ME AND GET OVER IT?
You are a woman-hater Sally!!! Admit it.

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 6:32 PM


Insisting that I or anyone else must have or even should have become invested emotionally is sheer abusiveness.
Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 6:04 PM


AGAIN, SALLY .... seriously my four-year-old can apparently read better than you. Stop ranting for a moment and R.E.A.D ........ what I said was "there is no 'right' or wrong way to grieve".

What Sandy said was:
"We will all grieve differently in every difficult situation. You are correct in stating that miscarriage may not be a traumatic event for some women, but can be horribly devestating for others."

What Hippie said was:
"I think the normal range of responses to miscarriage is great. Just like the normal range of intelligence is great. The response seems to vary from serious grief and depression to dissapointment or for some even relief. I think it is wrong to ridicule someone because their reaction is not like someone else's."


SO PLEASE CLARIFY FOR US SALLY .... What exactly are you complaining about again? No one is ridiculing you about how you reacted in YOUR situation ... quite the contrary, what we discussed was that each woman has the right to react and grieve her own way, which clearly will vary widely from one person to the next.

Do you just like to complain and stir up controversy where none exists?

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 6:34 PM


If you all get your way, I guess it will be mandatory. A boon for the funeral and burial industry.
Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 5:41 PM


Sally, can you read??? What I said was women should be given the CHOICE to do so IF SHE WANTS TO. Others here have said similar things. Not a single person on this entire blog has ever even HINTED or suggested that any such thing would be MANDATORY. Stop being such a drama queen!!!

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 6:27 PM
..................................

Can you read? If zygotes are human beings then human disposal codes must be followed. No? Why not? Women should be allowed to dispose of zygotes/embryos/fetii as they see fit?
Drama queen? You're the one grieved over what could have been. Would you like to trade snipes or have a discussion?

Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 6:37 PM


His Man,
I love that. I want to print it keep it close.
What an awesome statement.
Thank you!!

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 6:37 PM


Can you read? If zygotes are human beings then human disposal codes must be followed. No? Why not? Women should be allowed to dispose of zygotes/embryos/fetii as they see fit?
Drama queen? You're the one grieved over what could have been. Would you like to trade snipes or have a discussion?

Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 6:37 PM

All I can even think to say is.....

KNOCK KNOCK ANYONE HOME?????????????

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 6:39 PM


Sally,
I really don't understand what your post is actually trying to say.

At the present time, due to your pro-choice agenda, women are flushing babies into city sewer systems. You want that to continue???

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 6:41 PM


Would you like to trade snipes or have a discussion?
Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 6:37 PM


I would love to have a discussion with someone who actually LISTENS TO WHAT WE ARE SAYING rather than putting words in our mouths that we never said and don't even agree with.

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 6:43 PM



Do you just like to complain and stir up controversy where none exists?
Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 6:34 PM
.......................

My apologies. I assumed that this blog was about outlawing abortion by declaring zygotes human beings with equal rights to individual human beings. Apparently it's about who's emotions over miscarriages we should judge and how or whether or not we should. Should have thought your 4 year old would find that a no brainer.

Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 6:44 PM


"At the present time, due to your pro-choice agenda, women are flushing babies into city sewer systems. You want that to continue???"

Do you have even a shred of evidence connecting the "pro-choice agenda" to the "baby" in the sewer system? Did the pro-choice agenda cause the baby on the train tracks?

Posted by: Hal at March 6, 2008 6:49 PM


Apparently it's about who's emotions over miscarriages we should judge and how or whether or not we should.
Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 6:44 PM


NO, Sally, that's NOT what it's about. Let me say this really loud so maybe you'll comprehend: THE ONLY ONE ON THIS BLOG WHO HAS JUDGED HOW OTHER WOMEN REACT EMOTIONALLY TO MISCARRIAGE IS YOU!!! Well, and FF too for the record.

None of us have judged or ridiculed, etc/etc/etc. What we have said, for the millionth time, is that everyone reacts differently and each woman should be free to react in whatever way feels right to her.

Being that you're all about "choice" ...... WHY IS THIS SO HARD FOR YOU TO GRASP??? Each woman should choose to handle it how she wants?

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 6:50 PM


Apparently it's about who's emotions over miscarriages we should judge and how or whether or not we should.

Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 6:44 PM

Again. STILL KNOCKING!!!!!

Nobody is judging Sally!!!! What have we all just tried to point out to you??

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 6:50 PM


Do you have even a shred of evidence connecting the "pro-choice agenda" to the "baby" in the sewer system? Did the pro-choice agenda cause the baby on the train tracks?
Posted by: Hal at March 6, 2008 6:49 PM


The pro-choice agenda tells us that unborn babies are worthless and are aptly disposed of in dumpsters, garbage disposals, plastic canisters, etc. So now, this baby was disposed of in the sewer system, floating amist trash, human waste and disgusting filth.

Why should we be alarmed?

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 6:57 PM


The pro-choice agenda insists that the lives (and bodies) of unborn babies are not important enough to deserve any type of respect.

After all, it's just tissue. So why should a tiny corpse in the city sewer be a big deal?

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 6:59 PM


Hmm, so no response from Sally. She pops in here just long enough to throw around wild and inaccurate accusations and then leaves before anyone can clarify our statements, which apparently are so unintellegable that she's unable to decipher then on her own.

What gives, Sally? What happened to our "discussion"?

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 7:03 PM


Hal, what's the story about the baby on train tracks you mentioned? Haven't heard about that.

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 7:04 PM


Hey,
There are only 20 comments on Abortion Providers Appreciation Day post...why aren't more prochoicers over there? Such a big stink you have made to downplay others grieving over miscarriage and the fact that SOME of us want to remember our babies in very special ways.

Posted by: Carla at March 6, 2008 7:12 PM


Hey,
There are only 20 comments on Abortion Providers Appreciation Day post...why aren't more prochoicers over there? Such a big stink you have made to downplay others grieving over miscarriage and the fact that SOME of us want to remember our babies in very special ways.

Posted by: Carla at March 6, 2008 7:12 PM

I've discovered that Jill's WingNutDaily columns aren't usually worth the energy it would take to click over. They usually come off like a desperate attempt to sound like Ann Coulter, only less drunk.

Posted by: Hieronymous at March 6, 2008 7:14 PM


Kristi, a few days ago, at this site, Jill posted a story of a woman in India on a train who gave birth to a little girl and the baby somehow went into the toilet and then onto the tracks.

No one, that I recall, made the argument that it happened because of the pro-choice culture.

Posted by: Hal at March 6, 2008 7:15 PM


....or maybe more drunk. I'm not sure.

Posted by: Hieronymous at March 6, 2008 7:15 PM


Do you have even a shred of evidence connecting the "pro-choice agenda" to the "baby" in the sewer system? Did the pro-choice agenda cause the baby on the train tracks?

Posted by: Hal at March 6, 2008 6:49 PM

As a matter of fact Hal, I do. Just a couple hours ago, I got word that the piece of legistlation we are trying to pass got dumped by a senator because NARAL has concerns.

All we are asking is that upon diagnosis of a miscarriage, women are notified as to what to do with their babies if they miscarry at home.

All we are asking is that when women choose a D&C procedure or induction, that they are given options on fetal disposition by the hospital.

We are not mandating anything. We are just asking that women be notified.

If you have followed our posts, you have read that women flush all the time because they don't know what else to do. They panic.

I have no idea how this particular baby wound up in the sewer(bless his little soul) but as Kristi pointed out, your side has devalued life. Your side throws them away as trash, so why should it surprise you that the pro-choicers would be culpable for this action.

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 7:22 PM



Hmm, so no response from Sally. She pops in here just long enough to throw around wild and inaccurate accusations and then leaves before anyone can clarify our statements, which apparently are so unintellegable that she's unable to decipher then on her own.

What gives, Sally? What happened to our "discussion"?

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 7:03 PM

RFF does this all the time as well. Very frustrating.

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 7:24 PM


Hey,
There are only 20 comments on Abortion Providers Appreciation Day post...why aren't more prochoicers over there? Such a big stink you have made to downplay others grieving over miscarriage and the fact that SOME of us want to remember our babies in very special ways.

Posted by: Carla at March 6, 2008 7:12 PM

Way to funny!!!
You would think their would be some discussion about them like the Oscar Nominees. What gives?
You'd think they would be glowing all over these creeps.

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 7:26 PM


"If you have followed our posts, you have read that women flush all the time because they don't know what else to do. They panic."

if life was "valued" more, they would know what to do and they wouldn't panic? That doesn't make any sense.

These are not aborted babies, these are miscarriages (presumably).

Posted by: Hal at March 6, 2008 7:26 PM


if life was "valued" more, they would know what to do and they wouldn't panic? That doesn't make any sense.

Posted by: Hal at March 6, 2008 7:26 PM

Hal,
We are asking that women get instructions on what to do with the remains, then they wouldn't panic at home. They will KNOW WHAT TO DO

The majority of hospitals take the remains and throw them away in an incinerator as medical waste without parental knowledge or consent.
Don't you think the parents should have the final decision on fetal disposition???

You got to decide the final fate of your two aborted babies, Why deny parents of miscarried the right to make decisions?

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 7:31 PM


I'm not arguing with you. I just don't think you can say the pro-choice agenda in any way caused that fetus to be in the sewer. It's possible, but we don't know.

Posted by: Hal at March 6, 2008 7:35 PM


OMG Hal, that's awful. I must not have been around here the day Jill reported that. Thanks for catching me up to speed...

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 7:35 PM


if life was "valued" more, they would know what to do and they wouldn't panic? That doesn't make any sense.
Posted by: Hal at March 6, 2008 7:26 PM

Hal I think those are two separate arguements ... (1) that the PC side devalues life and so therefore it is not a big deal for a baby corpse to end up in the sewage plant ... and (2) this type of thing could be prevented or lessened if women were given better instruction and guidance on what to expect during a miscarriage and what her options are for disposal -- but the pro-choice side will not allow better instruction and guidance as evidenced in the case that Sandy said happened in her state just today.

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 7:42 PM


I'm not arguing with you. I just don't think you can say the pro-choice agenda in any way caused that fetus to be in the sewer. It's possible, but we don't know.

Posted by: Hal at March 6, 2008 7:35 PM

Hal,
The big picture is that the pro-choice agenda doesn't want this legistlation to pass, therefore women will be kept ignorant on what to do, so they will continue to flush.

What other scenerio will explain this Hal?
Want to take any guesses? Was the woman floating in an innertube for the fun of it in the sewer system and viola delivered a baby?

If Jill's hunch is correct, of course it will prove to be a pro-choice incident.

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 7:42 PM


Kristi, actually it's a "good news" story. The baby survived and is doing fine as far as we know.

Posted by: Hal at March 6, 2008 7:43 PM


Thanks Kristi for helping to explain. You said it perfectly!

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 7:44 PM


Hmm, so no response from Sally. She pops in here just long enough to throw around wild and inaccurate accusations and then leaves before anyone can clarify our statements, which apparently are so unintellegable that she's unable to decipher then on her own.

What gives, Sally? What happened to our "discussion"?

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 7:03 PM
....................

Gee whiz Kristi. Don't you have a life? There's din din to make. Laundry to finish and my man likes a little of my attention when he gets home. Do you really need to know about the quickie we just had on the stairs? He's run off to class now. I'll wade through and look for your post. Feel better?

Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 7:45 PM


well I did until you gave details on the quickie. Eww.

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 7:49 PM


And yes, for the record I do understand about making din din and doing laundry ... I've got a little one I'm juggling here and my own husband to cook for .... so yes I do have a life.

How about next time we're in the middle of a "discussion" and you've gotta run just letting everyone know you're leaving instead of just disappearing like that...

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 7:51 PM


Kristi, actually it's a "good news" story. The baby survived and is doing fine as far as we know.
Posted by: Hal at March 6, 2008 7:43 PM


WOW, unbelievable. I think I will have to dig up that post and get the details on that one!!

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 7:53 PM


Sally,
I really don't understand what your post is actually trying to say.

At the present time, due to your pro-choice agenda, women are flushing babies into city sewer systems. You want that to continue???

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 6:41 PM
....................

Ever miscarry Sandy? Are you really expecting women to examine every clot involved to ascertain which might be the embryo or fetus? Sorry, but they don't come out looking like babies. Are you in favor of mandating that every woman that miscarries save every bit of blood and tissue that comes out of her when she miscarries? Where do you suggest that the whole mess be disposed of?

Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 7:55 PM


Apparently it's about who's emotions over miscarriages we should judge and how or whether or not we should.
Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 6:44 PM


NO, Sally, that's NOT what it's about. Let me say this really loud so maybe you'll comprehend: THE ONLY ONE ON THIS BLOG WHO HAS JUDGED HOW OTHER WOMEN REACT EMOTIONALLY TO MISCARRIAGE IS YOU!!! Well, and FF too for the record.

None of us have judged or ridiculed, etc/etc/etc. What we have said, for the millionth time, is that everyone reacts differently and each woman should be free to react in whatever way feels right to her.

Being that you're all about "choice" ...... WHY IS THIS SO HARD FOR YOU TO GRASP??? Each woman should choose to handle it how she wants?

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 6:50 PM
.......................

Do you have anger issues? What's with all the shouting? Simmer down.
Why is it so difficult for you to address the issue of abortion?

Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 7:58 PM


Sally,

Have you ever miscarried at home?????????
I have. I miscarried twice and lost the first one in my home at 12 weeks. I miscarried on and off for five long hours and lost tons of fluid, clots and blood. Even though my miscarriage had been diagnosed noone told me what to expect.

You insist that these little ones don't look like anything even though you have seen Bethany's photss. Carla has explained she held hers in her hand and could see every little feature. I lost my baby still contained in the gestational sac. I knew exactly what it was.

If woman want to try and keep the remains they have every right to do so.

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 8:03 PM


Oh, and to be clear, no I am not mandating that women must save anything. Women deserve to have information on what is going to happen so they can be prepared to manage it.

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 8:06 PM


Sorry, but they don't come out looking like babies.

Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 7:55 PM

Sorry Krista. Forgot to add. Haven't you read Krista's posts?
Her baby was born at 18 weeks and was a beautiful baby boy.

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 8:08 PM


Sorry Kristi,
Big oops. My friends name is Krista, and I am so used to writing her name. (I was afraid I would do that)

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 8:11 PM


Are you in favor of mandating that every woman that miscarries save every bit of blood and tissue that comes out of her when she miscarries?

Sally, again, please understand we are not in favor of "mandating" ANYTHING ... we are simply in favor of educating women on what her options are so that she doesn't have to "flush" if she does not want to.

And Sandy, no problem on the name thing, I do that all the time! You are right, though, my Isaac at 18wks looked just like every other baby, just smaller. People are astounded when they see his pictures.

I'm off to get my little one ready for bed now .... goodnight everyone. :)

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 8:15 PM


Do you have even a shred of evidence connecting the "pro-choice agenda" to the "baby" in the sewer system? Did the pro-choice agenda cause the baby on the train tracks?
Posted by: Hal at March 6, 2008 6:49 PM


The pro-choice agenda tells us that unborn babies are worthless and are aptly disposed of in dumpsters, garbage disposals, plastic canisters, etc. So now, this baby was disposed of in the sewer system, floating amist trash, human waste and disgusting filth.

Why should we be alarmed?

Posted by: Kristi at March 6, 2008 6:57 PM
...............................................................

Yes why should you be alarmed? It would be safe to say that women have been miscarrying into toilets since their invention. Are you concerned about embryos catching a disease in sewers, septic systems, outhouses? What?

Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 8:25 PM


Yes why should you be alarmed? It would be safe to say that women have been miscarrying into toilets since their invention. Are you concerned about embryos catching a disease in sewers, septic systems, outhouses? What?

Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 8:25 PM

The baby found in the sewer system was a baby, not an embryo. You have been agahst that anyone would bury their baby in their back yard Sally,
you know, bio hazards and the like?

Why would you want babies to be tossed into sewer systems? You know for your bio-hazard fears? So, do you want them buried in back yards? Tossed in the toilet? Or respectfully placed in a casket or urn and buried appropriately in the ground or cremated if that is what the parents choose.

Please enlighten us on what you would like women to do.

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 8:44 PM


I need to go as well.
Tootles.

Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 8:47 PM


Ok, I've got to stop reading this blog in the morning before I go to bed, it's giving me weird dreams, especially this entry (although the situation is sad).

Posted by: Rachael at March 6, 2008 8:55 PM


I also need to go, as I work at 10:30 tonight and probably won't be back on until tomarrow night (as I sleep during the day and depending on what hubby wants to do in the evening). Until then, all the best!

Posted by: Rachael at March 6, 2008 9:06 PM


Sally,

Have you ever miscarried at home?????????
I have. I miscarried twice and lost the first one in my home at 12 weeks. I miscarried on and off for five long hours and lost tons of fluid, clots and blood. Even though my miscarriage had been diagnosed noone told me what to expect.

You insist that these little ones don't look like anything even though you have seen Bethany's photss. Carla has explained she held hers in her hand and could see every little feature. I lost my baby still contained in the gestational sac. I knew exactly what it was.

If woman want to try and keep the remains they have every right to do so.
Posted by: Sandy at March 6, 2008 8:03 PM
...........................................

2 hours at home and another 20 at the hospital. Passed blood clots the size and appearance of human livers. My miscarriage was also expected. No one told me of the possible complications of the imminent miscarriage any more than anyone every told me the possible complications of pregnancy.
When the fetus was finally pulled out, it looked like an insignificant blob of tissue compared to the blood clots. Certainly didn't look like a baby and would have had to have needed all the blood and tissue cleaned away before looking like a 12 week fetus. The concept of cleaning up a fetus for examination is a bit morbid to me. Fascinating but morbid. If I hadn't been so week from loss of blood, I may have done just that.
I contend that expecting every miscarriage to be predictable and the woman responsible for making sure it doesn't get flushed is just too much. As for leaving it up to the woman to dispose of as she sees fit? Well ok. As long as my cat doesn't dig it up and bring it home.
But once again, won't the woman's wishes become redundant if conceptii are made into individuals with the same rights and burial obligations. You aren't allowed to take your dead grandpa home and put him in the freezer. Or bury him in the back yard.

Posted by: Sally at March 6, 2008 9:09 PM


Hi Sally,
I am the mom. I am the mom of the baby I miscarried. I have every right to that little baby's body. I am the mom wasn't told a thing about miscarriage. I was told I would pass a clot. I expected a clot. Not a baby in my hand. I named that baby. Jamie. This mom would have at least appreciated a little more info, ya know? A little more insight, guidelines, options? If I hadn't been so freaked out, I think I would have done exactly what Bethany had done. I would have posted pictures of Jamie on this blog too.
I am sorry that your miscarriage was horrible. It sounds physically painful as well as emotionally draining. I am so sorry.
We are not talking about about a dead grandpa, are we?

Posted by: Carla at March 6, 2008 9:43 PM


Just a thought, Sally.
Maybe you could study up on fetal growth. Look up a baby at 12 weeks gestation. That is as far along as you were right? I really feel in my heart that you are grieving, even though you wouldn't ever admit it. Cause you are tuff enuff.
Oh and feisty. Don't forget feisty.

Posted by: Carla at March 6, 2008 9:53 PM


Sally
Wouldn't you at least want to dismember your fetus first to get back at her for all the pain she caused you by invading your body?

Posted by: truthseeker at March 6, 2008 10:03 PM


There is no such thing as a "soul."
Posted by: phylosopher at March 6, 2008 6:02 PM

phylo, speak for yourself

Posted by: Anonymous at March 6, 2008 10:05 PM


Sally,
Nobody is requesting that women MUST search for anything. If they want to they can, if they don't it's ok. Many times a woman may not be able to determine what is what. That needs to be explained. However, when a woman is miscarrying at home, they should be miscarrying in something other than a toilet so it can be determined how much blood is lost to prevent hemorhagging. I was probably hemorhagging to a certain degree and should have gone to the hospital.


A woman in WI recently died from an at home miscarriage with her three kids by her side.
She HAD NO IDEA SHE WAS hemorhagging.
This is absolutley unacceptable. She should have had better medical information to guide her through the process.

Posted by: Sandy at March 7, 2008 8:12 AM


Funny to hear the newspaper call the baby's body a "corpse"...aren't Bortheads (which includes the Mainstream Media) supposed to call it the "Product of Conception" (or POC if they're in a real hurry)?

A hurried situation in which a Borthead might choose to use "POC" would be when the aborting mother is bleeding out on the table and they're trying to figure out how to stop her from bleeding to death WITHOUT calling an ambulance)...you know, just another day at the office.

ex. "Hurry, get rid of that animated POC by stuffing it in a biohazard bag and throwing it on the roof before we're forced to call an ambulance and attempt to sound completely bored by the fact that we have a woman bleeding to death in our office due to our gross and willful negligence!" Pssst...she pre-paid didn't she?...

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 7, 2008 3:30 PM



A woman in WI recently died from an at home miscarriage with her three kids by her side.
She HAD NO IDEA SHE WAS hemorhagging.
This is absolutley unacceptable. She should have had better medical information to guide her through the process.
Posted by: Sandy at March 7, 2008 8:12 AM
...................................

I couldn't agree more. I think it's that 'don't bother the little lady with scary stuff' mentality. Fully educating women about what can go wrong in pregnancy would save lives as well as pregnancies. It might scare a few women off pregnancy and that might be the reason for lack of such education. Hard to say why it isn't offered. My SIL's sister is a OB/GYN. Next time she's out for a visit, I'll ask her.

Posted by: Sally at March 8, 2008 9:32 PM


Sally, cripes! You keep on talking about all of these pregnancy related illnesses. Doctors have these things under control. I have met many women who went through their pregnancies with all kinds of illnesses. Guess what? They all had safe and happy endings. What is your problem?

Posted by: heather at March 9, 2008 8:35 AM


I couldn't agree more. I think it's that 'don't bother the little lady with scary stuff' mentality. Fully educating women about what can go wrong in pregnancy would save lives as well as pregnancies. It might scare a few women off pregnancy and that might be the reason for lack of such education. Hard to say why it isn't offered. My SIL's sister is a OB/GYN. Next time she's out for a visit, I'll ask her.

Posted by: Sally at March 8, 2008 9:32 PM

Yes, Sally you get it! Now use the same concept and apply it to educating women on what to do if they deliver their fetus in their homes, or educate them on what will happen to their fetus after D&C or induction. Give them CHOICES, so they don't regret their actions for the rest of their lives.

Posted by: Sandy at March 9, 2008 4:45 PM


Yes, Sally you get it! Now use the same concept and apply it to educating women on what to do if they deliver their fetus in their homes, or educate them on what will happen to their fetus after D&C or induction. Give them CHOICES, so they don't regret their actions for the rest of their lives.

Posted by: Sandy at March 9, 2008 4:45 PM
.................................................................

Women that are pregnant should be instructed in examining everything in the toilet before flushing in case of miscarriage so they won't regret their choice to miscarry?

Posted by: Sally at March 9, 2008 9:57 PM


Sally, cripes! You keep on talking about all of these pregnancy related illnesses. Doctors have these things under control. I have met many women who went through their pregnancies with all kinds of illnesses. Guess what? They all had safe and happy endings. What is your problem?

Posted by: heather at March 9, 2008 8:35 AM
................................

My goodness Heather! You know all these women dying or physically damaged by abortions but don't know a singe women dead or damaged by pregnancy?
Selective hearing Heather?

Posted by: Sally at March 9, 2008 10:04 PM


I think all women should have the right to choose to bury the remains of their unborn children. Only 6 or 7 states give women the right to take the dead child home. Many hospitals will allow women to take the body home to bury it but not all. There should be laws allowing the choice to bury your child. Btw miscarriage is up to 20 weeks gestation and stillbirth is after 20 weeks. I also lost a child at 17 weeks. He was 8 inches long and weighed 6 ounces. They gave me the right to take him home and bury him.

Posted by: Marie at March 10, 2008 12:26 AM


Sally, no I don't. I know one woman who had to have a hysterectomy d/t an excessive amount of abortions. That's one injury.

Posted by: heather at March 10, 2008 9:33 AM


I also know quite a few women who are emotionally upset over their decision to have an abortion, and I also know some that don't seem to be affected.

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