Michigan law requires a girl under 18 to bring written permission from 1 parent or written permission from the court to her abortionist.

In the 200+ medical records pro-lifers recovered from late-term abortionist Alberto Hodari's trash over the course of 4 Saturdays at 3 of his 6 mills, there was not 1 permission waiver from either parent or judge.

Did Hodari get permission before aborting this girl, who was procuring a 2nd trimester abortion from him and whose record was 1 of those found? (VTP means Voluntary Termination of Pregnancy; more on these loans soon.) Click to enlarge:

UPDATE, 12p: I have created a "Hodari" archive link, which you can see scrolling down on the right side of the home page. All Hodari articles will be available there.

This is so sordid.

What do they mean how much $$$? Do they mean just for the procedure? Why couldn't they just write "money"? No contraception was used. That's sad maybe this whole problem could have been avoided.

Jill, your obsession with this guy is interesting.

You want to put responsible providers like Planned Parenthood out of business, and intimidate doctors out of providing abortion services in accordance with the law and medical standards.

When responsible medical professionals are hounded out of the business,who do you think is going to pick up the slack?

Anti-choice extremists are largely responsible for desperate women having to go to incompetent, unethical back-alley butchers, so isn't it hypocritical for them to criticize the quality of "care" they provide?

Curious,

I thought once abortion was legal "incompetent back alley butchers" would be put out of business. Perhaps you have to face up to the sad fact that all it did was allow them to conduct their businesses openly and legally.
I've read one theory that illegal abortions, which were mostly performed in doctors' offices, may have been safer. Doctors could be selective of who they saw, they certainly did not perform abortions on an assemblyline basis, they were very careful as any "mistake" would get them thrown in jail, and they certainly didn't throw biohazardous evidence and patient records, which they likely didn't keep, in the dumpster.
Maybe that explains why the illegal abortion death rate in 1972, the year before Roe v Wade, was 36.

do you think Hodari was acting in accordance with "medical standards?"

Curious, did I read you right? You actually meant to say there are "incompetent, unethical back-alley butchers" operating in America today legally?

Mary, well put as always! curious, I would hardly call this an obsession. This is a necessity. Who on earth is policing these clinics on the PC side? Where is the outrage from PC organizations such as NOW and Naral?

curious, I am a female, and I also happen to care about other females. Women are dying from legal abortion in America's abortion clinics today. Women are also being raped, stalked, and molested by abortionists. Women need to be warned.

Curious: I didn't realize that prolifers were forcing women to have back-alley abortions. That's news to me. I guess there are prolifers who force women at gunpoint to have aboritons done by "back-alley butchers". Perhaps you should alert the proper authorities. @@

Anti-choice extremists are largely responsible for desperate women having to go to incompetent, unethical back-alley butchers, so isn't it hypocritical for them to criticize the quality of "care" they provide?

Posted by: curious at March 13, 2008 12:13 PM************** No. These back ally butchers can easily be found at any Planned Parenthood or at your neighborhood abortion clinic.

That poor girl..that is so sad..17-18 weeks. :(

Carrie, hello and LOL!

Look. No contraception was used by either one of them.

Hi Heather.

hi;]

Mary you wrote: "I thought once abortion was legal "incompetent back alley butchers" would be put out of business. Perhaps you have to face up to the sad fact that all it did was allow them to conduct their businesses openly and legally."

Then how do you explain the fact that abortion in the USA today is extremely safe? Fewer than one maternal death per hundred thousand abortions. That's safer than injecting penicillin into a patient.

Abortion is more than ten times safer for the patient than the childbirth it prevents.

Someone must be doing something right.

Could it be that most abortion providers in the USA are (gasp) good at their jobs?

Somg, no. It's not possible to find a good abortionists. You have proven that.

Could it be that Jill and Mary are liars who get their jollies by smearing the American abortion industry, but really don't know very much about it?

no.

Heather, I know it's a mistake to reply to you seriously, but I'll try once more: If American abortionists are all legalized back-alley butchers (as you claim), how do you explain the low maternal death rate?

Wouldn't you expect more patients to die from abortion, if the providers were as bad as you say?

There shouldn't even be one death let alone several. There should never be rape or molestation either, but we both know that there is. Legalized abortion was supposed to prevent these kinds of things.

Somg, you are an utter embarrassment to the PC side. Haven't you figured out that your posts are so silly that you actually help the RTL side?

Heather, being ignorant is one thing. You can be forgiven for that; it's not your fault if you never learned to do research.

But to be ignorant of the facts AND STILL TO PROFESS A STRONG OPINION, IN SPITE OF YOUR OBVIOUS IGNORANCE, that's the definition of stupidity.

You wrote: "There shouldn't even be one death let alone several" By writing this, you show only that you don't know anything about providing health care.

No one who provides health care, absolutely no one, can do so with zero risk of SOME patients dropping dead. There are always rare events which can happen to anyone. Even someone at the top of the profession, like David Grimes or George Tiller. In fact, the higher up you are, the more challenging or complicated cases you are likely to see, so your risk of a rare event goes up as you rise within the profession.

Heather, I just read your latest post. You just copied what I said to you a few days ago! You don't have an original thought in your head. You need to go back to school, probably high school.

Well SoMG here are some interesting facts for you:

While women may not necessarily be dying in droves to cause you any discomfort, abortionists are legalized back-alley butchers who damage women's bodies and psyches.

Consider the following:

The UK's Royal Colleg of Obs & GYns recently established a complication rate of 11 percent resulting from induced abortion.
In 1969 in Canada (I'm Canadian so I will use Canadian figures) this would have affected only 400 women. However, in the 1990's and 2000's this would mean that over 13,000 Canadian women suffer each year from some type of medical condition or complication related to their abortion(s).
About 30% are repeat aborters, meaning that their complication risk is much higher.

The fact that many abortions are now done in clinical settings as opposed to a hospital has only exacerbated the problem. This is because clinics like Hodari's are often not equipped to handle complications.

In the US, with a current abortion rate of 1.3 million, this means that roughly 140,000+ women EACH YEAR will have some kind of immediate complication resulting from their abortion.

A recent American study (Major, Cozzarelli, Cooper, Zubek, Richards et. al 2000) found that 17% of women reported physical complications such as bleeding or pelvic inflammation after their FIRST TRIMESTER ABORTION.

Would you like me to continue?

Patricia, continue or not, it makes no difference to me.

Eleven percent is not a very high complication rate, and the large majority of those complications are minor things which require no hospitalization. In the USA complications from abortion serious enough to require hospitalization are rare events. Taking care of minor complications is part of the abortion doc's routine job. And what you would call a "complication" from abortion (say, for instance, bleeding or severe pain) is just par for the course in childbirth.

One question: why do you suggest that Dr. Hodari is not equipped to handle minor complications in his office? I don't know him personally but I'm sure that's a slander.

You might find it enlightening to read the following:
http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/140/8/620

Well, SoMG,
There are other factors to consider:
1. It may not matter to you about an 11 percent complication rate - however if you are one of those women who are in that 11 to 17 percent complication rate (assuming it's that low) it will matter greatly because you may NOT be able to conceive again depending upon the complication. So don't brush that off quite so lightly.

2. The complication rates from abortion in North America are considerably LOWER than in Europe, Scandanavia, and Australia - that is countries who also have advanced medical systems.
Why is this?
Is it because abortion services in Canada and the US are much safer and efficient? Or is it because the NA research methodology misses many complications as a result of poor follow-up care, incomplete coding and POLITICAL BIAS.
The study by Major et al found that when the women themselves were asked about any complications, the rate was 17%.

Legalizing abortion was suppose to make it safe -how many women contemplating abortion are told that they may have a 17% risk of bleeding, uterine perforation, cervical damage, future infertility. How many are told that the clinic they walk into will not provide follow-up care and that they may have to seek advanced medical care?

There are other issues to consider:

Infertility research shows that abortion does impact fertility. This is especially so for women who have NEVER carried a pregnancy to term prior to their first abortion.
Poor coding systems in hospitals and lack of follow-up care by abortuaries have delayed the recognition of the link between abortion and PID, hysterectomy, ectopic pregnancy, miscarriage and premature births. Often many years lapse between the abortion and the later infertility. Doctors may not be aware that a patient underwent an abortion 10 years prior.

Bleeding and pain are par for the course in childbirth - but childbirth is a natural event in a woman's reproductive life.
Abortion is NOT. Abortion abruptly interrupts some very complicated hormonal and biochemical processes which are occuring in a pregnanat woman's body.

As an abortionist, I'm not surprised it makes no difference to you SoMG.
After all, you're an ABORTIONIST - you kill babies.
For that I'm truly sorry. You use your medical skills not to heal but to destroy.

Heather, I know it's a mistake to reply to you seriously, but I'll try once more: If American abortionists are all legalized back-alley butchers (as you claim), how do you explain the low maternal death rate?

Wouldn't you expect more patients to die from abortion, if the providers were as bad as you say?

Posted by: SoMG at March 13, 2008 1:25 PM

Somg already explained to me at length why deaths from abortion may not be recorded as such. If a woman dies from infection then that is listed as the cause, not abortion. That is why she seemed to think it was impossible to know how many died. Of course there could be many more abortion related deaths attributed to other things, just as Somg explained to me last time this came up.

I have to say how sad I feel when I read that info about the 15 year old. She was 15 at the time of the paper work. How old was she when got pregnant? Did she have not enough personally fulfilling activities in her life that she ended up in such a situation so young? Who gave her the money? How did she get there? Who would care for her later? Who even cares what is next for her? Who cares for her at all? Who is there for her when she feels pain or fear or lonliness? It is so sad.

Patricia, impaired fertility due to abortion is extremely rare, even for repeat aborters.

You wrote: "Legalizing abortion was suppose to make it safe -how many women contemplating abortion are told that they may have a 17% risk of bleeding, uterine perforation, cervical damage, future infertility. How many are told that the clinic they walk into will not provide follow-up care and that they may have to seek advanced medical care?"

All patients are informed of possible complications. That's routine.

Most or all clinics provide follow-up care if that is necessary.

You won't make progress trying to show that abortion is more dangerous than it is. All you do is demonstrate your bias:

You'd be against legal abortion even if it were 100% safe and complication-free, wouldn't you? So why argue about side issues?

In fact, you'd lie about abortion risks if you thought you could save unborn babies from abortion by doing so, wouldn't you?

SOMG,

Perhaps you can explain why the death rate from illegal abortion in 1972 was 36 and had been steadily decreasing for years prior. Somebody must have been doing something right!

Perhaps you can explain why we have, to quote PC Curious, not PL Heather, "incompetent, unethical back alley butchers" when, according to you, there is no shortage of competent doctors ready to perform abortions. Also, legalized abortion put these hacks out of business, right?

Also SOMG, if you're going to suggest I'm a liar, kindly quote me stating a lie.

"If a woman dies from infection then that is listed as the cause, not abortion."

Nevertheless, this is a death that is the result of an abortion which had a complication. This is exactly the sort of thing I've mentioned in my post - poor coding and follow-up.

The lack of inclusion in abortion rates or complication rates does nothing to help improve health care for women.

In fact, abortionists such as SoMG are quite happy NOT to have these things included. Once that girl is out the door, they don't care whether she has a torn cervix, is heavily bleeding and passing blood clots or still has pieces of the baby inside her. She's NOT THEIR PROBLEM anymore. They've got their money and that's the bottom line.

PC Curious is wrong.

Hippie, the underreporting of abortion deaths applies only when abortion is illegal. It's rare or absent now.

Again, this is a myth right-to-lifers promulgate in order to scare women out of having abortions.

Patricia, if you thought you could save unborn babies' lives by lying about the risk of abortion, would you do it or wouldn't you? If not, why not? Aren't unborn lives more important to you than telling the truth?

And by the way, no one knows what the death rate from illegal abortion was in 1972. No one.

Funny thing, SoMG disappeared as soon as he met someone with some research to back themselves up??!!

I have to say how sad I feel when I read that info about the 15 year old. She was 15 at the time of the paper work. How old was she when got pregnant? Did she have not enough personally fulfilling activities in her life that she ended up in such a situation so young? Who gave her the money? How did she get there? Who would care for her later? Who even cares what is next for her? Who cares for her at all? Who is there for her when she feels pain or fear or lonliness? It is so sad.

Hippie,

I could not agree with you more. I shall pray for her, whoever she is.

That's quite a cop out SoMG. So we don't know the death rate 30 years ago -- so what!

The question is: Is legal abortion a safe procedure for women NOW since we are living in the present? We already know it's 100% fatal for babies.

The bottom line: research shows that there is a minimum 11% complication rate in NORTH AMERICA and at least a 17% complication rate if we consider the reporting rate of women themselves.

Major studies undertaken in NA present conclusions that are at odds with the results of their research.
Many authors of studies are themselves abortion providers who have a vested interest in minimizing negative findings.

No reporting policies exist either in Canada or the US. Therefore,complications that develop days or weeks later are often not linked to the original abortion procedure and therefore do not appear in the literature on abortion sequelae.

Since the 1970's there has been a dramatic increase in the number of abortions in NA which is also parallelled by an dramatic increase in rates of PID, uterine haemorrhage, sepsis, endometritis pain, retained fetal or placental tissue and breast cancer.

Truth is what it's all about SoMG?
BUT Abortion has NEVER been about TRUTH.

In the 1970's you guys told women that their babies weren't formed until very late in pregnancy or when "quickening" happened (this was Henry Morgentaler's excuse), it was "just a blob of cells", "blood", "bloody tissue". But then along came ultra sounds - now people could actually see their little babies at 6, 7, 8 ,9 wks moving about!
Was this the TRUTH, SoMG?

Then you denied the baby's humanity with the arguments, "it's dependent on the woman's body", "it can't feel pain", "it's a woman's right", "it's not a person", "it's not aware of it's surroundings".
But we know that babies who are routinely aborted today, can feel pain, and we don't know what they experience in the womb only because we don't have a way YET to discover this.

You abortionist's told women it was a quick painless procedure, but many women have described the abortion process as emotionally and physically devastating - as the most painful procedure they've ever had. Women have routinely spoken of how callously they were treated by the abortionist, how they were told to shut up, how they were not provided any information on fetal development (you must be kidding from an ABORTIONIST), other available options, on what EXACTLY the procedure entailed, on the risks.
You want to talk about TRUTH SoMG -

I dare YOU SoMG to go into to your patients and SHOW them a picture of an unborn baby at the stage of their pregnancy prior to an abortion."This is what your baby looks like at 8 weeks"

I dare YOU SoMG to tell your patient the possible complications that may arise - any other surgery they do.

I dare YOU SoMG to tell your patients ALL the other options they have besides abortion.

But, I'm betting you cop out SoMG. Cuz the money's just tooo good!

"Hippie, the underreporting of abortion deaths applies only when abortion is illegal. It's rare or absent now."

that's correct SoMG, the reporting of deaths or complications due to abortion is rare or absent now....

Notice SoMG disappears when the truth appears!!

Ooh Patricia!! I love you! 3:48 post was awesome!

that's correct SoMG, the reporting of deaths or complications due to abortion is rare or absent now....

Patricia, CDC statistics count all deaths associated with abortion, not just those attributed to abortion.

Risk in terminating pregnancy before 9 weeks: 1 in 1,000,000

Between 9 and 10 weeks: 1 in 500,000

Between 13 and 15 weeks: 1 in 60,000

Straight off the AGI/CDC website.

Somebody who rides a motorcycle has roughly a 1 in 1000 chance of dying. A whole different deal.

Doug

Doug you need to reread my 2:25pm post.

Elizabeth Ring-Cassidy and Ian Gentles have published research on women's health after abortion.

The studies done in NA and the stat's provided do not add up to the research being done both in other countries. There is no accounting for this difference since the same abortion procedures are used and all the countries involved have advanced medical systems.

I am not talking just about deaths, I am also talking about abortion sequalae.

SoMG would love to have us all believe what he hopes is the case and what he's written here:
"Patricia, impaired fertility due to abortion is extremely rare, even for repeat aborters."

HOwever, numerous research studies have shown that women who have abortions and in particular women who have their first pregnancy aborted risk experiencing greater difficulty in conceiving and also in carrying a pregnancy to term. The main complications are cervical incompetence, uterine perforation and placenta previa and ectopic pregnancies.
A large number of studies have found that the risk of premature births following abortion ranges from 30 to 267 percent. The rate of cerebral palsy among preterm babies is 38 percent, meaning that abortion is a significant contributor to this condition in NA.
The abortion industry does not disclose this fact to women.

The NA media and PP has also portrayed abortion as a minor procedure much like getting your nails done when in fact women do die from this surgery. The most common causes are haemorrhage, infection, embolism and cardiomyopathy. 14 percent of all abortion deaths in the US are due to complications from general anesthesia.

Thanks Carla,
But like Hal, SoMG often disappears when the facts are presented - they are men who really don't care at all about women.
In SoMG's case he uses his medical skills to chop and dice - not to heal! He has two patients but he routinely kills one at least.

Elizabeth Ring-Cassidy and Ian Gentles have published research on women's health after abortion.

.........................................................

A historian and a psychometrist got together and wrote a book about women's health did they? Exactly how are they qualified to do so?

Patricia, you wrote: "HOwever, numerous research studies have shown that women who have abortions and in particular women who have their first pregnancy aborted risk experiencing greater difficulty in conceiving and also in carrying a pregnancy to term. The main complications are cervical incompetence, uterine perforation and placenta previa and ectopic pregnancies. "

Cite these studies, please. For an abortion to cause problems conceiving or carrying later pregnancies is very rare.

Whenever right-to-lifers say "numerous studies show ..." you know some kind of BS is forthcoming.

And by the way, no one knows what the death rate from illegal abortion was in 1972. No one.

Posted by: SoMG at March 13, 2008 3:06 PM

So you admit that your side lied to the american people to advance your agenda.

Sandy, It's not at all unusual for me to object to the tactics used by some pro-choice activists. One thing they do that I object to is exaggerate the "provider shortage". There's no shortage of abortion docs except in ultra-rural places where there are shortages of all specialists.

A word about the phrase "studies show" and what it means.

If two things are equal, big studies will show they are equal. But small studies are susceptible to statistical noise, so some of them will show one larger than the other, and other studies will show the one smaller than the other. Thus, even though the two things are equal, anyone can say "studies show" that one is larger.

A good example of this is the alleged link between abortion and subsequent breast cancer. The large studies show no link; of the small studies some show a weak link and others show a weak protective effect (that abortion PREVENTS breast cancer.) So right-to-lifers can say "studies show" a link without actually lying, even though there's no link.

Of course, there are also times when right-to-lifers just make things up and say "studies show" it--like when Jill says "studies show most relationships end after abortion" or some such bs.

SoMG,
Do you ever feel bad doing what you do? I mean, was there ever a time, even once, that you felt sad or distraught after an abortion. Did the eyes of the fetus ever meet with yours and did you ever feel anything?

I'm not being sarcastic with my question, I am curious. I never asked an abortionist these questions that I've always wanted to ask.

SOMG,

Didn't your side say 10,000 women died annually from illegal abortion? Interesting, but Dr. Bernard Nathanson, a leader in the movement to legalize abortion and a co-founder of NARAL, said your side was well aware that this was a complete fallacy, that the death rate was actually less than 200. If only we could say the same about our murder and car accident rates!

I don't do late term abortions. The fetal eyes I have seen are little black spots on either side of a head the size of your thumbnail.

In theory I feel sorry for the aborted, but I consider the patient to be supreme mistress of her uterus, entitled to say who gets to live there and for how long.

The Japanese have a holiday of mourning for the aborted. But they don't have a right-to-life movement--no effort to outlaw abortion.

Mary, as I say, I don't always agree with what members of the "pro-choice side" say.

SOMG,

About the abortion/breast cancer link. Go to www.abortionbreastcancer.com. You can review the research and draw your own conclusions. I'm sure you agree that women have every right to be advised that this research exists and should be encouraged to check out this website and draw their own conclusions.
I've never seen a situation where so much effort is put into disproving a cancer link when we're told that everything we do and eat will give us cancer.

Mary the abortionbreastcancer.com site is one-sided amplification of statistical noise. The melbye study (1.5 million patients followed over 28 years) answered this question, at least for the Danish population. (I suppose you could argue that africans might be different.)

No I do not recommend right-to-life propaganda like www.abortionbreastcancer.com to anyone considering abortion. There are plenty of things you should consider before having an abortion but breast cancer is not one of them.

It's a myth promulgated by right-to-lifers who think that they can scare women out of having abortions.

SOMG,

This website offers a variety of research. Are all these researchers right to life? What do they have to gain by showing any link? Since when does one study negate numerous other studies? Don't women have a right to know both sides of the argument?
If these same studies showed a link between breast implants and breast cancer, you can bet the reaction would be different.
The abortion industry has everything to lose and much to answer for if a link is proven. They're hardly unbiased.
Why would you have any problem at all with women reviewing this research and drawing their own conclusions? Maybe this research is telling you something you would prefer not to believe.

Mary, you wrote: "Since when does one study negate numerous other studies? "

A very large study (Melbye et al) can contradict many small studies or (meta-analyses based on small studies). (You should already know that. Are you pretending to know less than you do?)

Q: Why doesn't www.abortionbreastcancer.com list the (many) small studies that show a small PROTECTIVE effect of abortion against breast cancer?

A: Because they are propagandists amplifying only one side of the statistical noise.

Mary, you also wrote: "Don't women have a right to know both sides of the argument?"

There is no (serious) argument.

SOMG,

So why not let women look at research from both sides of the argument and draw their own conclustions. If you're absolutely right SOMG women will see there is no connection and you won't have any problem, right?
Keep in mind SOMG that the abortion industry has everything to lose if a connection is shown. They can hardly be considered unbiased.

You accuse PL people of being propagandists who amplify only one side of the statistical noise? One could say the same for you SOMG.

Mary, LOL! You have such a calm and witty style of debating. BTW, I will be sending you another e-mail. I've been kind of busy.

Patricia, CDC statistics count all deaths associated with abortion, not just those attributed to abortion.

Risk in terminating pregnancy before 9 weeks: 1 in 1,000,000

Between 9 and 10 weeks: 1 in 500,000

Between 13 and 15 weeks: 1 in 60,000

Straight off the AGI/CDC website.

Somebody who rides a motorcycle has roughly a 1 in 1000 chance of dying. A whole different deal.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at March 13, 2008 4:42 PM

There is nothing in those statistics that supports the statement that all deaths associated with abortion are attributed to abortion. There is also no reason to think that abortion related deaths are any more likely to be attributed to abortion when it is legal vs. when it is illegal. Whenever a person dies, the practioner could be potentially be liable so there is just as much reason to underreport now as ever.

Heather,

Thank you. I'll look forward to hearing from you.

"But like Hal, SoMG often disappears when the facts are presented - they are men who really don't care at all about women."

Hey, that's not fair. I lurk here as much as i can.

I care about women. I have a mother, wife, and two daughters. How could I not care about women. Sure, we have a disagreement about abortion, but that doesn't mean I don't care about women. Or that you don't care about women. We simply disagree. I don't assume you're a bad person for your views (which I think are harmful). Why would you assume I'm a bad person because of my views (which you think are harmful)?

by the way, since we're complaining about the records in the trash, I don't think we can complain that the parental permission forms are *not* in the trash. They shouldn't be there. My guess is that if he got the forms, he's store them somewhere safe because he might need them someday to defend himself.

Hal 12:07

Medical records and biohazardous waste shouldn't be in the trash either. You also safeguard medical records to protect patient confidentiality and to protect yourself in the event of legal action. Someone concerned about legal repercussions, and who has even the most minimal intelligence, doesn't toss confidential records into a dumpster.

There is nothing in those statistics that supports the statement that all deaths associated with abortion are attributed to abortion. There is also no reason to think that abortion related deaths are any more likely to be attributed to abortion when it is legal vs. when it is illegal. Whenever a person dies, the practioner could be potentially be liable so there is just as much reason to underreport now as ever.

Hippie, CDC says that the figures include "all deaths associated with abortion, noy just those attributed to abortion." And that they "include significantly more abortion-related deaths than are reported on death certificates."

Even if you'd be right, then perhaps abortion wouldn't be 100 or 70 or 30 or 15 times safer than continuing pregnancy and giving birth, but rather only 99 or 69 or 29 or 14, etc. Still a huge difference.

Additionally, the CDC figures for death from giving birth do not include deaths from ectopic pregnancy, miscarriage, etc., so the difference could be even greater than what is stated.

Doug

"Someone concerned about legal repercussions, and who has even the most minimal intelligence, doesn't toss confidential records into a dumpster."

I agree.

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