My favorite Christmas song is "O Holy Night" and my favorite line is:

Gives me chills everytime I hear it.

I agree that they are strong words, but they need to be.

People desperately need to realize that a life without faith is consumed with worldly things. These worldy things won't do a darned bit of good for you in the end. No amount of money, good works or anything else can give you eternal life. ONLY by the precious blood of Jesus Christ are we given that one, true, priceless gift. Isn't that wonderful news! There is a way out of a worthless, dead-end, empty-headed life!

Every person ever born was bought with a price. To not accept that gift would make one empty-headed, and their lives here on earth are worthless. They dead-end into an eternal seperation from God, without any means of escaping that horrific doom that they so chose to go.

If you're born once, you die twice; but if you're born twice, you die once.

I agree, what would you be working towards? death and nothing more?

Wow, MK, great line in great context.

mk, that's my favorite Christmas carol as well.

Obviously I don't believe my life is worthless just because I don't have faith in Jesus Christ. I believe my life has a different kind of worth than my more religious friends do, is I guess the best way to put it. My life brings joy to me and the people I share it with, my life can better the lives of others if I live it right, and so on. Do I suspect that there's something more? Frequently, I do -- mostly when I can't bear the idea that there's not (such as when a loved one dies). Do I hope that there's something more? Absolutely. But I don't think that faith in Christ is something you can CHOOSE to have. I tried to choose it for years, and I never had it, and eventually I had to be honest with myself about what I believe. I can't choose to have faith in Christ any more than some of the people on this site can choose NOT to have faith in Christ. But that doesn't mean my life is worthless. And I don't think that being honest with myself about my faith, my struggles, and my beliefs is at all empty-headed; I have not casually decided not to believe in Jesus just because Wicca sounds so much cooler, or something (I am most certainly NOT Wiccan either, lest anyone latch onto that statement). You could say that, in my darker moments, it seems like a dead-end, but that doesn't mean the drive there isn't worth taking anyway.

I'm at best agnostic but optimistic, and I think that any God who might exist would rather me be honest with both of us about my beliefs, and do my best to live my life in a way that makes the world a better place for others. The idea of a God who would give me this pragmatic, logical, faithless mind and expect otherwise of me or condemn me to hell doesn't feel true to me; it's something I've never felt. And you can say all you want that religion isn't about feeling, it's about the TRUTH, but would you believe it was the truth if you did not feel in your heart that it was?

Alexandra,
I liked reading what you wrote. You are thinking big thoughts and I like that. You sound on one hand like you are seeking answers and then on the other you are fine with where things are.
Ever read The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel? Just a thought.
If I didn't think that God is in control and is preparing a place for all of those who believe I think life would be bleak, indeed.
God bless you.

thanks Jill for the provocative question,

I think there is the possibility to write and write about this, so I'll try it from this stance. There is little doubt Peter did not find believing in Jesus real easy. We may think so, after all Peter was right there and interacted daily with a physical Jesus for 3 years.

Once Peter figured he had it right when he told Jesus that He was messiah, Son of the living God in answer to the query 'And you, who do you say that I am?'. But within a very few moments. the jubilant Peter heard Jesus say: "Get behind me Satan!"

The ultimate in these exchanges seems very difficult. Jesus has Resurrected and is to meet with His disciples 'up-north'. Peter decides to go fishing (to pick-up right where he had left-off). When Jesus comes a walking on the shore ... Peter had to be told "It is The Master."

After some food and still not recognizing Jesus. The Master asks Peter not once but three times if Peter loved Him. There is absolutely no time when so much of the heart is revealed ... (Abraham's walking with Isaac to Mt. Horeb ... to sacrifice Isaac ... seems close.)

In a way, Jesus asks us too "Do you love me?" When we start on something new we feel like: 'Sure!' But answering when someone 'close' dies, is much harder. If the question is posed when I die .... what will be my answer?

The answer to Jill's question is not so easy to understand except that somehow Peter hopes to place you in the same predicament ... everyday life is just sickeningly ordinary ... a denial of our own life and a denial of Jesus. Loving Jesus transforms and resurrects this 'ordinary' into the extraordinary. Without His Love .... there is zip. I am zip!

John

...And those that denied the existence of the Gnomes wore mismatched plaids, never returned their carts to the corral at the supermarket, and were never welcome at the "Cool Table" in High School.

Yup, those who fail to live the Gnome Lifestyle are a pack of cretins with big 80's hair-dos, while those of us who know the Gnomes are just way 'mo better.

I love religion. Everyone who disagrees with me is just a big ***ktard!

Sssshhhhhh, Laura.

Alexandria, thank you for such an honest and thoughtful response. I feel like I completely understand where you are coming from after reading your words.

I think Carla's book recommendation was a good one... I appreciate the fact that you are still seeking answers. I am sure that you will eventually find them. Seek and you will find.

And you're right...you can be honest with God about how you're feeling. He will answer your prayers, not always in the way you might expect...but if you sincerely want to know, He will provide you with the answers, in His time.

Unlike FF(Laura), you have responded to this question in sincerity, and I really appreciate that about you! (hugs)

I'm an atheist, so of course I disagree. To me, the verse sounds like someone who is insecure in his own belief attempting to puff himself up by tearing down others.

Heironymous, I understand how you feel, but this wasn't an attempt to tear down others, but it was explaining how vain life is without Christ, and how fortunate we are to have a Savior that would redeem us from the worthless life (a life which ends with death) into a life that has purpose, and inherent worth and value (and does not cease when we die).

Without Christ, our lives end at death, and there would probably be nothing more to it. Without Christ, we are only as valuable as we perceive ourselves to be, or as others value us (as Doug's type of logic will explain).

With Christ, there is more, there is life after death, and we do not have to live a life in vain, only to eventually just die and be forgotten.

It's not about tearing others down as much as it is explaining that things on earth are corruptible and have an end, but spiritual things last forever.

Even you would probably agree with me, being an atheist, you (I assume) believe that life ends with death- so what exactly is the purpose of life- for you? Is there an actual purpose to life, in your opinion? To be remembered by other people? You could be remembered for a few centuries, maybe even a thousand years by other people...but those people will eventually die and be forgotten too. What is the real point of living, of helping others, of accomplishing goals, of keeping yourself healthy, etc, if it all ends with death and nothing more?

Here is the verse Jill posted, along with the context...I'm posting it with the New International version as it's easier than KJV for most:

17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,

19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. [fn2]

23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

�All men are like grass,

and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;

the grass withers and the flowers fall,

25 but the word of the Lord stands forever.� [fn3]

And this is the word that was preached to you.

Alexandra,

That is a good post and a very honest way of looking at things. God can not fault you for that..in fact, I bet He appreciates it.

There are at times when I too feel conflicted with the physical world and that of the spiritual world. Especially when really terrible things happen in the world. But I pray, and I just hope that He shows me the way. Having faith is not easy, even Jesus at times struggled with what He was put here to do on Earth. But nothing that is worth it is ever easy.

Alexandra,
(sorry for bombarding you!)

Your post is so sincere. You explain yourself and feelings very well. I admire that.

I don't know if this will help, but I like to share this story because I have witnessed the "light" being turned on myself:

My mother was a devout atheist. Things happened in her life that made her believe that there wasn't a God, because "if there were a God" He could not possibly allow the things that happened to her in her life happen. One day, when she was at rock bottom in her life, she cried out and said, "God. People tell me that you are real but I have a hard time believing that. If you are real, please show me".

In a miraculous way, God did indeed answer her prayer. The "light" was turned on (through God) and she is now happy, full of life and her spirit has been filled. So, if you arn't sure, just ask God...He will answer you. I promise.

One more thing that I would like to add, is that God does enjoy people being kind, good-hearted, honest, etc. However, he cannot look upon sin, and sin cannot enter Heaven. It's nothing personal, for you are His creation. Through believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ, our sins are cleansed FOREVER, and this is what will allow one to spend eternity in Heaven with Him. It's not you He doesn't like...He loves you! It's the sin that you have....that we ALL have...that we were born with....that He cannot accept.

Romans 10:9-10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

God will work in your heart to believe if you ask Him to.

I don't know...I have to say I also disagree with the statement.

I do believe that when we die, that's it, that's the end. I'm not so sure why this is always seen as a *bad* thing? Could it just be that we really are here for *no reason*? I'm not sure why people are so concerned with whether they are here for a purpose or that their lives need a purpose in order to be considered worthwhile and good.

Something I've always wondered about, why can't people just be good for the sake of being good? Why is it that people are good to avoid Hell and for an opportunity to go to Heaven? I'm good to people because it makes me happy to be that way. I often feel crummy and really guilty if I'm mean...and if I treat people poorly, it gives them an "excuse" so-to-speak to treat me poorly, so why would I do that?

I'm perfectly content with understanding that this is it, and that there probably isn't a purpose or reason for my existence or that there is a point to living. I just do because that's what I have been doing for the past 20 years, and I'm quite fond (at this moment) of the status quo.

Ari-chan,
And if you're wrong? I mean, you HAVE been wrong about things before, right?

Eternity is quite a long time. In fact, it's immeasurable. Quite a long time to pay for being wrong, if you are, right?

@JLM: Then I guess I'll pay the consequences for being "wrong". However, I think it rings hollow to believe in God out of fear of what would happen if you don't. Pascal's wager...ugh.

Believe me JLM, I have tried to believe that there is a God, but I can't. I've tried to believe that there is an afterlife, but I can't. It's not important to me, to be honest.

St. Paul said, "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Christ is the only word that will fit into it's place in that sentence and justify the last 5 words of it". Everything else is lost when you enter eternity; and even He is lost to you if you enter it without Him.

Then I guess I'll pay the consequences for being "wrong". However, I think it rings hollow to believe in God out of fear of what would happen if you don't.

I certainly do not believe in God out of fear. However, it's what got me studying the bible in the first place! I always thought that if I were wrong, what a horrible place to go to! I just thought it would be to my benefit if I were to "look into it", wholeheartedly, and then make a decision based on my "findings".

I always relate that to someone who wants to be, say, a bioligist. They don't just say one day, "well, I want to be one, but I can't." They go to school, study biology...every aspect they can of it...to get complete understanding of it, so they can become a biologist. Same thing with God. In order to understand Him better, you need to study the bible...every aspect you can of it...to get complete understanding of it, so you can learn how to receive the gift of eternal life.

IMO, I'd rather learn about God now, than put it off, or take a gamble on whether what He says is true or not, so I don't spend eternity kicking myself in the rear end!

Believe me JLM, I have tried to believe that there is a God, but I can't. I've tried to believe that there is an afterlife, but I can't. It's not important to me, to be honest.

God will work in your heart to believe if you ask Him to. Honest. It takes only a few seconds of your life to ask Him, A-c. It may not be important to you now, but you really can't guarantee that you'll be alive even another hour. It's not fear, it's just smart.

:)

I see myself as the same person I was when I was an atheist. I think I still have some ambivalence though. My conversion is not on firm ground as of yet,imo. I think I want to believe more than I might actually believe.

4:04 was me...oops!

Hi Bethany - thanks for the response. You are correct. I think that our lives cease when we die, and I'm ok with that.

I don't agree at all that ceasing upon death makes life worthless, quite the contrary. I cherish the time I have, the friends I've made (and hopefully will make), my family, my own accomplishments and the accomplishments of those whom I care about.

Thinking about Alexandria's post also, I have this vague notion that there really is something physically different about the brain, genetics or what-have-you between believers and non-believers. Just like her, I went through some years of searching before concluding that I just don't have the proper mechanisms for belief. I don't feel it, and never have. I was raised by strong believers in a family of strong believers, and to me it always felt like play-acting.

I think religion is an incredibly rich and fascinating field of study, but that's about as far as it goes.

One of the things I'm struggling with Hell--why would God give an infinite punishment for a mistake on Earth? Doesn't seem just.

PIP,
I don't know if you read this, but I'll re-post the comment especially for you :)

One more thing that I would like to add, is that God does enjoy people being kind, good-hearted, honest, etc. However, he cannot look upon sin, and sin cannot enter Heaven. It's nothing personal, for you are His creation. Through believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ, our sins are cleansed FOREVER, and this is what will allow one to spend eternity in Heaven with Him. It's not you He doesn't like...He loves you! It's the sin that you have....that we ALL have...that we were born with....that He cannot accept. It's not the mistakes we may make, it's the sin that we were born with that needs cleansing. Sin cannot enter Heaven. As much as God loves each and every one of us, sin in Heaven is not His plan. Thankfully, he gave us His Son, Jesus Christ, so that we can be cleansed of sin and spend eternity in Heaven.

What an wonderful, free gift!

Carrie,
Maybe that's God knocking at your door? Let Him in, trust me, He's awesome!

@JLM: I'm sorry, but it sounds to me like like it's "covering your bum" in case you are wrong. It seems that by having faith you are buying nothing more than insurance policy that may or may not fully cover everything.

It doesn't seem worth it to me. I think it would be best not to continue this dicussion. :)

Hi PIP
I don't think you're the only one who struggles with the concept of Hell.
I think it's quite beyond our human comprehension.
What I have read and been taught as a Catholic is that when we are judged by God (personal judgement as opposed to the general judgement at the end of time) we choose Hell. God does not place us there.
This is because we cannot stand the sight of a being so perfect so loving and we flee - we know that Hell is where we belong (I'm speaking of evil people unreconciled to God). We also know in perfect understanding the consequences of all of our actions and have perfect understanding of our motivations for doing them.
I once heard Hell described as a place where no one can ever love again. It seems incredible.
However, having said that, the thing to remember is that God wants us to be in Heaven with him and His mercy is infinite and much greater than the power of the devil.
Peace and God bless,
Patricia

Hi PiP.

there is a rather profound story about a gambler who died. He finds himself in luxurious clothes plus plenty of good food. "This is absolutely wonderful, especially because I did NOT believe in any sort of afterlife."

A few weeks pass and he learns the routine of his new home. So he stops to talk to a neighbor. "This is wonderful" says he "but it's like every available moment we go to the temple to sing God's praises. Isn't there something else... some ACTION?" "Nope, nothing else." was his reply.

"Oh, didn't anyone tell you?" "You are in Hell!"

John

PIP,

Hell is the complete seperation from God.
God doesn't want anyone to go to hell. Each day that we have, is another chance that God gives us to come to know Him. He gave us the most amazing gift, Jesus Christ, so that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. God gave us free-will so that we can choose. Some do, some don't. And there are consequences for those decisions. He respects us so much as not to barge into our life. So the decision of whether we go to hell or not rests solely on ourselves.

The only difference between a believer and non-believer is that when a believer stands before God, he or she has Jesus to intercede on his/her behalf. Believers and non-believers both sin.

Both will stand before God to make an account for his/her life, what he/she did, what he/she didn't do. Believing that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world doesn't give anyone a free pass. Believing and understanding who He is allows us the reassurance that we won't be judged harshly, bc we recognize that we are sinners and that we are nothing without Jesus Christ.

In the end, if those like Hieronymous are right, and there is no God, I have lost nothing. If there are many paths to God, I still lose nothing bc I can look at God and say I lived my life with the understanding that Jesus's words were true by saying "I am the way, the truth, the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." But if I am right and there is a God and Jesus is the only way, I still lose nothing bc I trusted Jesus with my life. But those who don't will lose everything, and that really makes me sad, for I will never see them in Heaven.

Heaven is going to be the most amazing place. We think the earth is beautiful now, just wait to we see it in it's perfected state. The way is was created originally. It is unfathomable. I can't wait to see my Father in Heaven, and Jesus Christ. I can't wait until I can give Jesus a hug. That thought gives me goose bumps!I can't wait to talk with Paul, Peter, Nicodemus, David, Deborah, Mary, Calvin, Bonhoeffer, Augustine. The list goes on.

I'm a big fan of Islam because of how accepting it is (when it is practiced in true accordance with the Qur'an). They say that Jews and Christians are on the right path as well and they believe in the messages of Abraham (Ibrahim) and Jesus, but simply that--in the nature of humans--they strayed and forgot to listen to Mohammad. If I had a dollar for every time it reassures readers of the Qur'an "but God is ever-forgiving and infinitely merciful" or something similar, I would not have to worry about paying for university.

There are many paths to God. I will never stop believing that.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

There are many paths to God. I will never stop believing that.

Then, by definition, you are not Christian as you have claimed(not saying it to be mean, but to help you understand this point). Leah, a Christian believes what the Bible says about salvation, that Christ is the only way, the truth, and the life, and that no man can enter except through Him.

If you want to believe that there are many paths to God, you can, but please don't call it Christianity.

Tara, 6:37, I agree.

I'm not kidding here, my translation tool came up with this:

ÈÓã Çááå ÇáÑÍãä ÇáÑÍíã

In poison Allah Al-Rahman Merciful

oops...

Above the "in poison" translation was SUPPOSED to be Leah's Arabic endnote to her post.

I never called it Christianity, Bethany. But you have no right to speak for all Christians, because you will find many open-minded accepting groups of Christians DO believe that there are many paths to God. Your exclusivity is extremely disturbing to me.

The translation of what I wrote, by the way is the first line of every chapter in the Qur'an: In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.

@Leah: Somebody is eventually going to say that no...Christianity doesn't believe in the "many paths lead to God" and that the evil, evil pro-abort liberalz are ruining Christianity by saying that that is the case.

Though, if you like religions that are tolerant, you should look at Hinduism too. My buddy Indraneel told me about it and how it's a pretty tolerant [of other religions] faith. That and it has a god with blue skin, how rockin' is that?

Leah,
That wasn't Bethany, that was me. (JLM)

I forgot to put my name up AGAIN!

Thank you, though, for posting the translation for it. I wasn't kidding. i wanted to know what it meant, so when i ran it through the translation tool on my computer (stock), that's what it came up with. I didn't mean to offend you, I was just hoping you'd give me the proper translation. you did. Thanks!

I never called it Christianity, Bethany.

I know you didn't today, but you have in the past, which is why I was mentioning it...you have said in the past that you are a Christian, and that Jesus would allow abortions. Now, you may be another Leah and if you are, I apologize, but that is the only reason I brought it up at all. And like I said, my intent is not to offend but simply to point out that if one follow's Christ, they'll follow his teachings. And his teachings were that He is the only way to Heaven.

But you have no right to speak for all Christians, because you will find many open-minded accepting groups of Christians DO believe that there are many paths to God. Your exclusivity is extremely disturbing to me.

Then the Bible should be disturbing to you too, Leah. The Bible states clearly time and time again that Christ is the only way to salvation.

That's ok, JLM. I wasn't offended. :)

Bethany: I never claimed to be a Christian. I am not a Christian. I seek to better myself through a variety of spiritual mediums, many of which come from the words of Christ.

The Bible does not disturb me. What disturbs me are what I perceive to be severe misinterpretations (not to mention the mistranslations) of its texts.

Ari: Hinduism is VERY cool! I'm a big fan of Buddha as well.

Somebody is eventually going to say that no...Christianity doesn't believe in the "many paths lead to God" and that the evil, evil pro-abort liberalz are ruining Christianity by saying that that is the case.

Ari-chan,
HUH???
You're really not making much sense with that statement.

Leah,
So, do you agree or disagree with the weekend question?

Of course I disagree. If that is indeed what that verse says, then it is ridiculous. Does that mean that those who are not Christians are worthless? Jesus, I believe with all my heart, would NEVER say such a thing.

Unless, that is, I misunderstand Jill's interpretation.

@JLM: EHehehehehehe. Fingers were typing *far* faster than brain was functioning.

Allow me to clarify:

I was trying to say that the concept that Christianity allows for "many paths reaching to God" is something many more fundamentalist Christians do not believe. A critique I've often heard of that mode of belief is that it's an overly liberal (and therefore evil) interpretation because it *may* allow for people to have no problem with abortion but still love Jesus, when that isn't technically supposed to be the case.

I have often seen more conservative/fundamentalist Christians have major issues with denominations that are liberal in that aspect (in that many paths lead to God) like the United Church of Christ and the Unitarian Universalists.

I was being overly sarcastic with the "evil, evil pro-abort liberalz!" stuff...as I've heard that kind of thought-process before and felt like satirizing it, but obviously I did that poorly...

1 Peter 1:18-21:

18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

What's this about worthlessness?

What's this about worthlessness?

" the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers"

Of course I disagree. If that is indeed what that verse says, then it is ridiculous. Does that mean that those who are not Christians are worthless? Jesus, I believe with all my heart, would NEVER say such a thing.

The "way of life" is worthless, not the individuals involved in that way of life.

That would be "empty way of life" in your translation, Leah.

Ari-chan,
My bad. I didn't get the sarcasm in the last part. That's what threw me off.

Thank you for taking the time to clarify!

I'll still have to disagree. Many people live full and happy lives without Jesus.

@JLM: No worries, I probably over-did it. My sarcasm gets out of hand at times, to the point where it becomes mean and nonsensical. Duuuurrrrrr.

You're really not making much sense with that statement.

JLM, I think that what Ari-chan was saying was that there will always be people who feel that no true Christian can believe that there are many paths to God, and that people who feel that way will probably dismiss the beliefs of "Christians" (here in quotes to avoid a discussion over the true definition of Christian, who gets to call oneself a Christian, etc) who feel more like Leah as being more of the same "liberal" -- ie weak -- New Age spirituality that allows any other dissent from their views on what the religion is.

I wish -- more for your sake (and Bethany's) than for mine, because you guys seem to want it so badly -- that I could just say that I hadn't tried very hard to know God. I have. I spent most of my life trying, and I felt nothing. I remember being touched when all that stuff about Mother Teresa's doubt came out, because that's kind of what my entire religious experience was, in a way. Except that I never felt connected to God in the first place. And I am a much happier person accepting that and just concentrating on being the best person I can be, than I was when I was so desperately seeking something I felt should come to me if I just asked, or just wanted it badly enough, or whatever. I'm an open-minded person on just about every account, I think -- if someone proves me wrong, I have no problem changing my mind -- so if something were to come along to convince me that there is a God, I would probably change my mind. But I searched for quite a while, and the only conclusion I can come to is that whether there's a God or not, I'm not the believing type, at least not on the evidence I've seen. And if there is a God, I certainly don't believe that He would fault me for being honest about that.

Alexandra,
Thank you again. You do explain yourself VERY well! Believing what I believe, how can I not want it so bad for you? I understand your belief, and I also understand that I have not walked a day in your shoes.

I'd like to ask you something and I totally understand if you don't want to answer. That's ok. When you were "searching" for God, were you doing it on your own, or did you ask Him for help?

1 Peter 1:18-21:

18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

What's this about worthlessness?

Posted by: Leah at February 23, 2008 7:51 PM
.........................................................

In the context of this scripture it would relate to the buying of dispensation as it were.

If God doesn't want us to be in hell, how could he send incredibly good people there?

Leah,

The Qur'an does not allow for other faiths. And it definately doesn't teach that there are many paths.

This is not to say there aren't moderate people of the Muslim faith. I have had these kinds of conversations with a friend who is a Muslim.

Just curious, have you read the Qur'an?

That would be "empty way of life" in your translation, Leah.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at February 23, 2008 7:57 PM
.................................................

This scripture is not speaking to anyone's way of life but rather the use of graven images made from precious metals used by Jews to appease God.
Your brand of Bible takes great liberties in it's attempt to make historical references hip and relevant to it's readers.

No, JLM, I understand how much you must want it for me. I used to agonize imagining even people I didn't like rotting in hell.

I asked Him for help, almost every day for years once I was old enough to really understand the concept of faith as a personal issue rather than just "going to church." I always felt like there was something broken about me because it never worked. I became by far the most "religious" person in my family, I made best friends out of the most genuine Christians my age at my church (most of whom I am still in contact with -- that much, at least, was worth it!), I bought a Teen Bible hoping it would offer me some kind of key to understanding things, I pored over the Bible I'd received in third grade for graduating a Sunday School class hoping its straightforward presentation would help me get down to the core of my faith, I went on youth retreats and -- more than once -- asked my whole entire youth group to pray for me because I could not feel anything. I prayed fervently myself, always suspicious that no one was listening anyway. Eventually I grew tired, and found that I was much happier just letting it go.

Thank you for the compliment, by the way, JLM.

This is disturbing me, so I need to post this. By no means is this meant to offend anyone, but the truth needs to be said:

Christians DO NOT worship the same God as the Islam religion does. Allah is a pagan god, who has no son. Jesus Christ is Almighty God (John 10:33; Revelation 1:8), the second Person of the Godhead (John 1:1-3,10; Matthew 28:19-20), the Christ (Luke 2:11), and He is the Son of God (John 3:16)!

1st John 4:14 says, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world".

Muslims deny Jesus Christ as Savior.

We do not believe in the same God.

So, to say that there are many "paths" to God is simply false. There is only ONE path to God, and that is through Jesus Christ. He is God. All other religions that do not believe that Jesus Christ is God worship pagan gods.

Alexandra,
Thank you again. You do explain yourself VERY well! Believing what I believe, how can I not want it so bad for you? I understand your belief, and I also understand that I have not walked a day in your shoes.

JLM, you took the words out of my mouth. I want it so badly for her too. I have been there though. I have been through the agony of wondering if God really existed, if God really cared.
I remember as a child asking God if he existed and telling Him to give me a sign. I was asking for a physical sign, but I didn't realize that it would be years later before I realized how to listen for God's signs.

God has answered so many of my prayers (one of them ended up being my husband! He was a DIRECT answer to my prayers!), and has done good on all of His promises through His word.

I was able to come to assurance of my salvation again only through the support of my loving husband who has a lot of faith, and by reading the Bible again and again, searching for the support I needed. ALL of the answers that I was seeking were right there. Every single one.

I so badly wish I could help you to have the faith that you have been wanting, Alexandria. If there is any way that I can help you or that JLM or Mary Kay or anyone here can help, please let us know.

It is not as difficult as you might think, to have faith in God...but remember, you're not a failure or abnormal if you doubt at times. Remember, even Jesus disciples doubted many times, and Jesus called them "ye of little faith" on many occasions.
We only need faith "size of a mustard seed".

The devil can influence our minds and make God seem like a fairy tale, and if we aren't prepared with scripture to fight him with, we many times can fall for his tricks. It is very easy to do so. I fell for the idea that there were countless contradictions in the Bible, at one time. I was crying one night and asked my husband if he could help me understand why the Bible seemed to contradict. Lo and behold he showed me that I was taking the verses out of context, and when I read them correctly, they did not contradict at all. I remember being so intensely relieved when I saw this and realized my error.

I will pray and pray that we will be able to help you find faith in God. I pray that God will give me and others here the words to speak, so that we will not say the wrong thing, offend, or be a stumbling block, to turn you away from Him. Please try to remember that we are only human and can make big mistakes.

By the way, I think I speak for all of us when I say we love you - although we obviously disagree on many subjects, I never want you to get the idea that we dislike you. Never at all!

Ah, I hope this post isn't a jumbled mess!

@Leah,

I sure hope you are enjoying Alberta - must be the flat part, close to Saskatewan .. because much of the province is very hilly, being next to the Rockies.

I think you keep running up against a continuing problem: "And you, who do you say I am?"' These words spoken by Jesus have always been a problem for those who wish to control Him via 'superior' understanding.

There is an old story about Thomas Aquinas walking along a beech and running into a small child attempting to fill the hole he had dug with water. He told Thomas, that it would be easier to put all the ocean's water into that wee hole, than to understand the Trinity (an aspect of Jesus, Thomas had been contemplating).

The story goes that after this Thomas stopped writing ... referring to his earlier work as mere chaff.

Much of our current opposition to Jesus is a deep misunderstanding of Who He is. The answer is not simple, so the Way is and is-not narrow like you insist that it is.

"So, to say that there are many "paths" to God is simply false. There is only ONE path to God, and that is through Jesus Christ. He is God. All other religions that do not believe that Jesus Christ is God worship pagan gods."

I knew this was gonna come... :)

Now do you get what I was saying before?

Alexandria, psalm 119 is a very long chapter, but there is a lot there that helped me find assurance. You have probably read it many times before but I want you to notice how it reads, "Blessed are they....that seek Him with a whole heart."

You are very blessed, Alexandria. You are seeking Him.

Bethany,
Your post wasn't jumbled, it was beautiful.

And yes, you did speak for me when you told Alexandra that we love her.

Thank you, Bethany!

:)

Alexandria, have you ever accepted Christ as your Savior? Did you have faith as a child?

Tara: I realize that Islam is not a completely open faith, but I like that it at least recognizes other monotheistic religions as being valid. Not like JLM there who condemns Islam with a flick of the wrist.

To answer your question, I have read much of the Qur'an, although not all of it.

JLM: Yes, Muslims DO worship the same God you do. Just because you are too blind to see it does not change the fact. Next time, try to me just a *little* more ignorant and offensive.

Ari: I do, indeed. It saddens me.

These are my new bunnies, that will be off the bottle by the middle of March! I will get them when I get back from spring break :)

I have number 6 reserved for the first pick, 1 reserved on the second.

Anon:

There are a lot of hills, although not Rocky Mountain-esque ones. They're visible from the farm--the Rockies--although a five-hour drive away! But yes, for the most part, it is flat.

I think you misunderstand me. I am saying that the Way is not narrow, as many believe it to be. I believe the Way is wide and an abundance of paths lead to the same destination. Or am I misunderstanding you?

Beeeeeethany?

Are you able to chat this beauteous evening?

mods please post my bunnies :)

So, to say that there are many "paths" to God is simply false. There is only ONE path to God, and that is through Jesus Christ. He is God. All other religions that do not believe that Jesus Christ is God worship pagan gods.

Posted by: JLM at February 23, 2008 8:31 PM

...........................................

That makes Christianity absolute bunk then doesn't it? Christians use the Jewish God to explain their Christian God yet Jews don't believe that Jesus was God. Quite a conundrum. if Jews don't know their God, Christians know their God even less.

Tara: I realize that Islam is not a completely open faith, but I like that it at least recognizes other monotheistic religions as being valid. Not like JLM there who condemns Islam with a flick of the wrist.

From the quran:
The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is but a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him! (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)" (9:30-31).

Yes... and?

Leah, the exact same thing that you accuse us of doing is in the quran! They believe their religion is the ONLY one, they believe their way is the ONLY way.
Tell me where the difference is?

" recognizes other monotheistic religions as being valid."

that is false. They think that judaism and Christianity are false religions. See my point?

Bethany, check out my bunnies! They are in the queue

Ari-chan,

I am not embarrased to say it. Jesus is the only way, the only truth and the only life. No one comes to the Father except through Him. Yes, I believe that.

It seems intolerant, exclusive, arrogant, ignornat, and many other adjectives to say in this day and age. Because we have lost the true meaning of tolerance.

But I do respect other people no matter what their religion or lack there of bc God created them to. So while, I do not have to agree or accept anothers faith or viewpoint, I MUST respect them bc they are human beings and have intrinsic value. That is the true meaning of tolerance.

That being said, it is NOT my job to convert anyone to Christianity. That is God's job. I am to share my faith. I am to tell others how much Jesus loves them and wants to have a personal relationship wtih them. He came so that they can live. He came so that their sin would not destroy me forever. He came to redeem all of creation. He came because God loves them.

As Jesus said, it one sheep was lost, a shepherd would leave the flock and find the lost one. He then would throw a party when the lost one was found.

Aren't they the cutest things you've ever seen!

PIP, SO ADORABLE!

JLM: Yes, Muslims DO worship the same God you do. Just because you are too blind to see it does not change the fact. Next time, try to me just a *little* more ignorant and offensive.

Then why don't Muslims accept our God?
I just showed you the verse that says that, Leah. They say that we worship a false God (Christ)

Can I have one, PIP???
hehe

That makes Christianity absolute bunk then doesn't it? Christians use the Jewish God to explain their Christian God yet Jews don't believe that Jesus was God. Quite a conundrum. if Jews don't know their God, Christians know their God even less.

Not at all, Sally. The difference between Christians and Jews, is that the Jews do not believe that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, has come yet. They are still waiting for Him to come. They are still living under the law, while Christians believe that Jesus HAS come, fulfilled the law, and are living under grace through faith in Jesus. The beginnings of Islam are also found in the old testament. Our beliefs turn to a different path when we get to Jesus Christ. The crux of belief of Christianity. The one, true and only path to God.

So again, no. Christianity isn't debunked, the other religious beliefs are.

lol Bethany, she already gave the free ones away already but they are only twenty bucks ;)

I went over there (it's a 40 minute drive there) this afternoon, it was a lovefest. I was all over them and their cuteness. It was hard to pick just two.

here are her other litters:

http://www.furryfriendsrus.com/maternity.htm

she also breeds rats and mice. One of her rats was so adorable too!

"It seems intolerant, exclusive, arrogant, ignornat, and many other adjectives to say in this day and age. Because we have lost the true meaning of tolerance."

@Tara: Eh. I don't think I said that... do I agree with your view? Nope. Do you agree with my views? Nope. And that's fine.

They accept Jesus Christ, only not as a God. He is accepted as a Prophet. However, the aspect of God as an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being is consistent throughout the three monotheistic religions: you all worship the same God!

I have some Qur'an verses for you, but I need to go get my copy first.

Yes, Muslims DO worship the same God you do. Just because you are too blind to see it does not change the fact.

Leah,
I started the post with my "no offense" statement. Again, I am truly sorry you were offended. The truth often does offend.

Please enlighten me, then, as to how Muslims DO worship the same God as I do, if they believe that Jesus Christ was a prophet, and not God.

They accept Jesus Christ, only not as a God. He is accepted as a Prophet. However, the aspect of God as an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being is consistent throughout the three monotheistic religions: you all worship the same God!

My God is in three persons. Their god is not, Leah. If they don't believe that Christ is God, they don't believe in my God. Don't you see that?

See my above post, JLM.

got it, Leah. I'm a slow poster, LOL!

They accept Jesus Christ, only not as a God. He is accepted as a Prophet.

But he is not accepted by them as part of the triune God, which means that they do not believe in our God, which is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, all three are one.

No, Bethany. I do not. There is your ignorant exclusivity again. In any case, here are some wonderful Qur'an verses:

"The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah ... and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus" (42:13 AYA)

"We [Muslims] believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you [Jews & Christian]); our Allah and your Allah is One" (29:46 AYA)

"O People of the Book!" (5:68 AYA) refers to and addresses Muslims, Jews and Christians alike.

In case you're wondering, AYA simply stands for Abdullah Yusuf Ali, who translated this particular version of the Qur'an from Arabic to English.

Also the quran claims that Christ was never crucified, which would mean logically that they would believe Him to be a false prophet, if they believe Him to be a prophet at all.

By the way, anything further addressed to me, I'll answer in the morning.

I'm off for the evening!!

That's Qur'an--not quran. Like it's Bible, not bible. And God, not god.

Ari-chan -

I didn't think you did use those adjectives.

I was just trying to point out that I know there are other that would say that, and I was acknowledging that.

I respect you for your feelings. And I do hope that someday you come to know Jesus, but that is between you and Him.

I have to go and tuck my kids inoto bed, and study for my exam on Monday. Have a great night.

Leah, that would be if I respected their god as a diety. I mean no disrespect, but their god is not my God.

"That makes Christianity absolute bunk then doesn't it? Christians use the Jewish God to explain their Christian God yet Jews don't believe that Jesus was God. Quite a conundrum. if Jews don't know their God, Christians know their God even less."

It is possible to draw distintions without being insulting.

Jews have a concept of a messiah, they just don't accept Jesus as that messiah. Christians believe he was.

Since both Christians and Jews accept the old testament, they acknowledge the same heritage and basis of belief.

The quran clearly states in, The Women 4.171, that God has NO Son. [4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

In sharp contrast, John 3:16 in the Word of God declares that God DOES have a Son, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The quran even goes as far as to claim that Jesus never died, nor was He crucified (The Women, 4.157). And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Both history and archeology show clearly that Allah was worshipped as a pagan moon god long before Mohammed came on the scene.

So again, I will stress, not to offend, but just to prove that we DO NOT worship the same God, Leah.

Yes, I've heard that about the moon god, JLM. Interesting stuff.

Christians DO NOT worship the same God as the Islam religion does. Allah is a pagan god,

Muslims deny Jesus Christ as Savior.

We do not believe in the same God.

Posted by: JLM at February 23, 2008 8:31 PM

Allah is the arabic word for God. In the arabic version of the christian bible, allah is the word used for God.

If you don't feel or believe it is the same God, well okay.

However, arguing over the word allah is silly because it is just a matter of translation, like spanish Dios or german Gott, etc. Each language has its own words.

JLM,

Real quick, Isalm believes, that the Jews and Christians rewrote parts of the Bible after Mohommed was here. Although, that has been proven false from the archeological finds.

But most importantly they believe that as Christians we believe the Trinity, is God, Jesus and Mary. They do not have an understanding of the Holy Spirit. So for them, it looks like God had a wife. As Christians we know that is not true. But it is an important thing to understand. Muslims believe in the virgin birth, but do not believe that Jesus is God in human form. Even many Christians have a hard time understandig of the Trinity.

I agree with you, we do not worship and believe in the same God. We have a common ancestor, but that is where the similarities end.

If you don't feel or believe it is the same God, well okay.
However, arguing over the word allah is silly because it is just a matter of translation, like spanish Dios or german Gott, etc. Each language has its own words.

I totally agree, Hippie. I don't think that JLM is trying to say that the word Allah doesn't translate as "God" in their language, but like you said, that we don't feel it is the "same" God. I hope that helps clear it up.

JLM correct me if I'm wrong about your intent though..don't want to put words in your mouth..

I worship Jeff the God of Biscuits and Simon the God of Hair-dos...

(10 pts and brownies for whoever guesses what I'm referencing! :D)

No, hippie, it's not silly it's deceptive. Many religions call who they worship god, when it's not the same God that Christians believe in.

Islam's origins have been traced back by scholars to the ancient fertility religion of the worship of the moon god which was always the dominant religion of Arabia. The moon god was worshipped by praying toward Mecca several times a day, making an annual pilgrimage to the Kabah which was a temple of the moon god, running around the Kabah seven times, caressing an idol of a black stone set in the wall of the Kabah, running between two hills, making animal sacrifices, gathering on Fridays for prayers, giving alms to the poor, etc.. These were pagan rites practiced by the Arabs long before Muhammad was born.

This explains why the crescent moon is the symbol of Islam. It is placed on top of mosques and minarets and displayed on hats, flags, rugs, amulets and even jewelry. Every time you see the Muslim symbol of a crescent moon, you are seeing the ancient symbol of the moon god.

So I am not sorry to say, hippie, that who Muslim's call "god" and who I call "God" are NOT one in the same. It's not semantics, there's true meaning behind both names, and both names mean different things to each religion. One is real, one is not.

Tara, wow, that is very interesting!

I worship Jeff the God of Biscuits and Simon the God of Hair-dos...
(10 pts and brownies for whoever guesses what I'm referencing! :D)

I have no idea....what kind of brownies are they?

THis is for PIP:
God does not send "incredibly good people" to hell. They make that choice themselves, by the choices they make throughout their lives.
We have free will, unlike animals who operate on instinct. We can know what is good and evil and we make a choice. God wants us to choose to be with Him forever, but some do not want this. So, in His infinite wisdom, he allows us to choose. Of course, only God can know what is in a person's heart and if there are mitigating circumstances. That's why we cannot judge a person, only their actions. We leave the judgeing to God.
BTW,"Incredibly good people" do not go to Hell. How would you know this anyhow? Who told you?

PIP,
CUTE BUNNIES! If I could adopt every cute animal in the world, I would!

Patricia-

"They make that choice themselves, by the choices they make throughout their lives."
So if their perspective on religion is different but the goals are the same, they will still go to hell, because they have to be a Christian in order to go to heaven. Sounds unfair that someone willingly "sent themselves to hell" for eternity by simply being raised or come to understand God in a different manner.

"BTW,"Incredibly good people" do not go to Hell. How would you know this anyhow? Who told you?"
the people who say that unless you accept Jesus Christ you will go to hell.

JLM, no, the "two" gods are One and the Same. In the beginning Islam was essentially a split from Judaism, with changes as they believed the Jews had "gone off course" as the phrase was used by my Comp. World Religions teacher. However there was eventually a split due to Jews in the region believing Muhammed was a power threat and chased he and his followers out of town. That began the praying towards Mecca over Jerusalem. However they continued treating Jews and Christians as "brothers" in God who had simply been misled by their own prophets.

JLM, aren't they?! I had a heart attack looking at them, they were so cute.

Dan,
No, really they are not one in the same. Maybe they are to you, but I don't worship the moon god. I worship the One, True God.

@Bethany: Good brownies. With frosting. And walnuts if you like.

PIP,
They would have had to drag me out of there to leave! Wasn't it hard to go?

Dan,
This may help:

When Mohammed was born in Mecca in 570 AD, the black Kaaba Stone was the religious center of all Arabia. In Mohammed's day, 365 idols were worshipped there, standing in the great courtyard. One of those deities was called Allah and was the god of the Quarish tribe, of which Mohammed was a member. When the Quarish tribe took control of Mecca, all the idols except Allah, the idol of their tribe, were destroyed.

The Koran Tells us that Mohammed drove the other idols away; his god was now the only god and he was its messenger. But he kept the Kaaba as a holy, sacred place and confirmed that the black stone had the power to take away man's sins. He obligated every believer to make a pilgrimage to the stone at least once in his lifetime. (Sura 22:26-37)

Once again, not the same God Christians worship.

Oh definitely! I was there for probably a little over an hour, because I was petting and holding them. Some of them would dig their head into the nook of my elbow (awww) and yeah, crazy cuteness overload.

She also breeds rats and mice. One of her rats was really cute and just had a litter. The breeder took off her hut so we could see them. The rat would pick up one of her babies in her mouth to move them, and they would skweak!

oh my goodness. Cuteness everywhere. I didn't want to go, and I don't want to wait until march 24th!

PIP,
Not wanting to wait, I don't blame you! However, at least it's a good thing to look forward to, you know?

I heard rats make really good pets. I'm not sure I could ever do that, but I've heard from people who have them that they wouldn't have any other pet. Who knew?

Yup a friend of mine has a rat and she's really happy with him. Then another friend got a rat because he saw how she liked hers. I already have fish, hamsters, and now rabbits. If I got a rat right now I'd be a copycat!

but yeah I'll get one probably over the summer lol.

I'm totally that girl in being john malcovich--will probably have one of each species eventually.

I think the more life in the living space, the better.

JLM, the following is the text you are referring to:

[22.26] And when We assigned to Ibrahim the place of the House, saying: Do not associate with Me aught, and purify My House for those who make the circuit and stand to pray and bow and prostrate themselves.
[22.27] And proclaim among men the Pilgrimage: they will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, coming from every remote path,
[22.28] That they may witness advantages for them and mention the name of Allah during stated days over what He has given them of the cattle quadrupeds, then eat of them and feed the distressed one, the needy.
[22.29] Then let them accomplish their needful acts of shaving and cleansing, and let them fulfil their vows and let them go round the Ancient House.
[22.30] That (shall be so); and whoever respects the sacred ordinances of Allah, it is better for him with his Lord; and the cattle are made lawful for you, except that which is recited to you, therefore avoid the uncleanness of the idols and avoid false words,
[22.31] Being upright for Allah, not associating aught with Him and whoever associates (others) with Allah, it is as though he had fallen from on high, then the birds snatch him away or the wind carries him off to a far-distant place.
[22.32] That (shall be so); and whoever respects the signs of Allah, this surely is (the outcome) of the piety of hearts.
[22.33] You have advantages in them till a fixed time, then their place of sacrifice is the Ancient House.
[22.34] And to every nation We appointed acts of devotion that they may mention the name of Allah on what He has given them of the cattle quadrupeds; so your God is One God, therefore to Him should you submit, and give good news to the humble,
[22.35] (To) those whose hearts tremble when Allah is mentioned, and those who are patient under that which afflicts them, and those who keep up prayer, and spend (benevolently) out of what We have given them.
[22.36] And (as for) the camels, We have made them of the signs of the religion of Allah for you; for you therein is much good; therefore mention the name of Allah on them as they stand in a row, then when they fall down eat of them and feed the poor man who is contented and the beggar; thus have We made them subservient to you, that you may be grateful.
[22.37] There does not reach Allah their flesh nor their blood, but to Him is acceptable the guarding (against evil) on your part; thus has He made them subservient to you, that you may magnify Allah because He has guided you aright; and give good news to those who do good (to others).

I dont see that at all

Source: Here

except for the wild mice in the apartment. They gots to go.

PIP,
I agree with you, there!

Animals are so faithful and loving. They never cease to give you great joy! My dream in life is to become a dog breeder. The only thing that halts it, is that I'd never be able to give those cute little puppies up!

I just checked out the website you posted. What a wonderful breeder. She actually stated that she is responsible for her "creations", and that if you ever didn't want something you purchased, she would take them back, no matter how many years go by, no questions asked. What a wonderful breeder!

I'm sure you'll make a great bunny mom, PIP!

Also, JLM, Mohammad received the Koran from Angel Gabriel. They also refer to previous Biblical figures on top of tracing ancestry through Ishmael back to Abraham, and thus their connection to Judaism/Christianity and God Himself

It is true that as a Catholic I believe that the CAtholic Church is the one true apostolic faith. And I believe that the Catholic faith offers the best chance of achieving sanctity and heaven.
However, it is not true that only Catholics will go to heaven or only those who are Christian will go to heaven. Any person of good faith, seeking the truth honestly, will at some point in their journey end up on the road towards God. Such people grow spiritually and in a similar manner as Catholics, Christians. Father GRoeschel who is a psychologist and a priest has studied how people grow spiritually and states that while people of other religions can and do grow spiritually, the best opportunity for spiritual development is in Christianity and specifically Catholicism. (I hope I'm not misquoting him here!)

For example, if a person of the Hindu faith, is raised in the Hindu faith and really knows no other faith, but tries to live a good life (by that I mean he basically lives an honest life, is compassionate towards his fellow man etc) that person can definitely go to heaven. God does not damn someone because they've never had the opportunity to become Catholic.
As for knowing about the Catholic faith and declining to become Catholic, I have to say that only God really knows because only God really knows what was in that person's heart. For example, the great writer and Christian apologist, CS Lewis was very amenable towards Catholicism and had a strong relationship with Tolkien (a devout Catholic). Yet, it is my understanding the Lewis could never quite come to grips with becoming CAtholic. I believe CS Lewis was likely a very good man and I don't believe he resides in hell today! I think God saw his struggles, but also saw the tremendous good this man did while on earth.
This is my understanding of how things work.

JLM,

Thanks! In fact that is why I chose her as my breeder. I talked to her through email and AIM, and her website shows she is both responsible and knowledgeable. When I visited her today you could tell they were all in good condition and had ample space. She said when its warm she lets her buns run around ;)

that last post was directed to PIP
Sorry I meant to put your name up there at the top!!

Patricia-

but often people of other faiths live around christianity of some sort but stay with their religion. So what would your definition of "knows no other faith"?

Pip
I was referring to say a HIndu who lives in INdia- chances are those people will not likely have much exposure to Christianity and even if they did, they would not necessarily consider another religion due to cultural pressures etc.

Dan,
Mohammad allegedlyreceived the Koran from the Angel Gabriel.

"According to the legends, myths, and stories found in the Hadith, the Qur'an was written in heaven by Allah on a large stone tablet. The angel Gabriel brought it down and Muhammad recited it verbally but did not write any of it down. It was Muhammad's companions who wrote down what he recited. After his death, it was gathered together and compiled by the Calif Uthman.

The Qur'an was invented in order to give spiritual unity to the vast empire created by Arab conquests. By borrowing liberally from the legends, myths and religious traditions of pagans, Jews, Christians, Hindus, and Persians, they created one religion to rule over all its citizens. Thus the Qur'an was the product of multiple authors from different times and places. These authors contributed stories and legends from their own cultural and religious background. The sources of these stories have been well documented by many scholars."

Same origin, went a different "man-made" route, chose the moon god to worship, etc., etc. Again, Dan I choose not to believe that they worship the same God as I do.

That being said, I really get sick to my stomach when I have to research pagan religions. I actually cringe inside when I have to read their filth. Believe what you want, and I will do the same. I can't look at anymore Muslim writings and beliefs tonight.

patricia-

What I am referring to would be like people in america. There would be no excuse for them, correct?

good night to all
sweet dreams..............

aww :/

no answers for kate

Patricia,

In response to the paragraph re: the Hindu faith:

So, what you're saying then, is that we were all born sinners, but God allows sin in Heaven, and that Jesus really didn't have to come to shed his blood to wash away the sin that God allows in Heaven. That God's plan from the beginning was just a bad joke, and that people don't need to believe in Jesus, or anything He said in the bible, that all they just need to do is to have good intentions while they are alive to get to Heaven?

That is most certainly NOT the teachings of Christ (hence, Christian faith). God was very clear over and over again in the bible that there is only one way to God, through Jesus Christ.

I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME." -- Jesus Christ (John 14:6)

I don't mean to sound offensive, but your comment above is calling Jesus a liar.

PIP,
I tend to be blunt in my comments because I feel that this is such a serious matter. A true matter of life and death. I apologize in advance for my bluntness if it is offensive.

The fact is, is that God will not allow sin to enter Heaven. Those are not my rules, nor yours, they are God's. I know you have a hard time accepting that as being "just" and "fair", but I think that our ideas of "just" and "fair" are much different than God's.

Suppose you had a home with light colored carpeting throughout. Your rules for your house are that no one is to enter your house with shoes covered with filthy mud.

One of your best friends comes over, and their shoes are covered with mud. You tell them that they cannot come into your house unless they take their muddy shoes off. You tell them that your carpet must be kept clean.

Your friend, instead of abiding by your rules, gets mad at you instead, tells you that you aren't being fair or just to her. She tells you that she is a good person, never did anything wrong to you, and that you should accept her into your house anyway based on her goodness to you, regardless of her filthy, muddy shoes.

You cannot accept her into your home unless she took off her muddy shoes. You tell her that all she has to do is leave her muddy shoes outside of the door, and she will be more than welcome to come in. She has a choice here. What she chooses will determine whether or not she will come into your house. What will she do?

Does that help?
:)

couldn't Jesus cover everyone's sins then?

btw watching ANTM on the youtubes. One of my friends from high school is on it! It's almost surreal to see her on a major tv show like that.

also things aren't as black and white as in your example. Because we can't know for sure who is really right or wrong, then we'd have say when she gets there that you told her she had the choice before she knocked on your door, and should have learned from this one girl who was supposed to tell her about the rule, and now she is screwed and can't come in ever again.

couldn't Jesus cover everyone's sins then?

He did, PIP. And that's all that He asks, is that you believe in Him and accept what He has done for you. That's it. Plain & simple. It was never meant to be complicated.

PIP,
Do you realize that your passion for human rights has been a blessing and a curse to you?

Please, just worry about yourself for now. Think only about what Jesus has done for you. Don't try to think about the whole world for now. Baby steps, PIP....baby steps. You're starting at the end when you should start at the beginning. Trust me, everything will fall beautifully into place if you just think about you alone for a little bit.

Picture for a moment Jesus hanging on the cross. You are standing in front of Him. He looks down at you, and says, "Kate, I did this for you so that you may have eternal life."

JLM-

What you said about the Koran can be said about the Bible. Discrediting it for that reason and refusing to believe they worship the same God, even when Muslims THEMSELVES believe they worship the same God is ridiculous.

BTW, Islam is not considered a pagan religion. It is widely considered to be 1 of the three Abrahamic monotheistic faiths which all worship the same God, though you seem to want to believe otherwise.

Dan,
Here. Read up. Knock yourself out.

http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/gospel/g4105efm.htm

JLM-

I have already learned a great amount of that in my comparative world religions class. That article seems to leave out the nuances of the split between sunni and shi'ia, which are two very different forms of one religion. Those nuances are truly very important distinction.

Not to mention, it does seem fairly biased based in as a christian observer rather than an objective observer ;)

he also said "what you do for the least of these, you do for me." (or some variation thereof).

How could I rejoice in a salvation where others would be perishing?

Okay,

How weird is this? While you guys were having a discussion on pets and Islam, I was at the Dog Show at McCormick Place. They usually have two conventions going on at the same time. (Last year it was dentists and the year before it was bikers - now that one was fun). This year? You guessed it. The Nation of Islam. The name of their convention? Gods At War.

http://www.noi.org/

Anywho,
here's some pics of my favorite breeds...
The Samoyed is for Alyssa!

PIP,

I also have a bunny. Her name is Lucy. Sweetest pet EVER!

Alexandria, have you ever accepted Christ as your Savior?

I have. I don't think it counts anymore, though.

Did you have faith as a child?

How much of a child are you talking about? As a young child, I mostly enjoyed the social aspects of church. I liked having an excuse to wear a dress, and I liked occasionally reciting Bible verses in front of all the older church members who would coo over us, and of course the pageants and skits, etc. I loved the children's sermons. At some point I became aware that while I liked all of it, I didn't actually believe the things I was reciting or acting out or being told, and that I never had. As I grew older I realized that my inability to believe was just part of a larger inability to believe in God.

Even many Christians have a hard time understandig of the Trinity.

You know, one way I always used to think of it was like how H2O can come in three physical states. It can be a gas (steam), a liquid (water), or a solid (ice), but it's still one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms -- it's still the same substance.

Alexandra,

That is an awesome analogy.

Remember what you said about Mother Teresa? It wasn't that she didn't believe, but that she didn't feel. It struck me when you said this.

If I had to rely on feelings for my faith, I'd fail miserably. Faith isn't an emotion. It's more like a verb. Sometimes you feel it, sometimes you don't.

Otherwise, it becomes all about you, instead of all about Him.

I'm not trying to get into a Catholic/Protestant debate here, but have you ever looked into the Catholic Faith? It offers a lot more "depth" in my opinion. A lot more explanation of why we believe what we believe and why we do what we do.

Tons of books on saints that are going through what you are going through. There is one book called the Dark Night of the Soul. It deals with exactly what you are describing and what Mothere Teresa went through.

You might just be feeling that "there must be more..." and if so, I think the Catholic Church offers "more"...Maybe not, but it might be worth a look-see.

PUPPIES OMGZ.

Thanks MK, although I don't know why you said just the Samoyed was for me.....I love allllllllllllll puppies, and I took all of them as a personal cute overload gift this morning. *steal*

And your Gracie is unbelievably adorable. Remember how you were auctioning off either the dog or the son? I'll take the four-legged one. If you ever get to a point where you can't have her anymore, I would adopt her. :D

Well, anyway, I'm off again as I must go tend to the boyfriend....he's in a 46 hour dance marathon raising money for children with cancer. I must say, I've cried more than once this weekend looking at the pictures and seeing these kids at the event. He's dancing for his organization, but I'm also there to see the people from the coed frat I'm pledging...four people are dancing for this organization. I really admire all of them for being able to stand on their feet for so long and for such a great cause. Last year, we raised over 5 million dollars to donate to cancer research. FOR THE KIDS! :)

I forgot to put my name up AGAIN!

JLM, if you click "yes" right after the question "remember me?" above the posts...your name will automatically be added each time you post, so you wont have to remember each time.

Wow,

Lyssie, That is AWESOME! The more I hear about your beau, the more I like him!

I've grown to love Gracie (now that I can walk again) and I'm sorry, she's no longer up for auction. And since your boyfriend sounds so amazing, I'll have to withdraw my offer on the son too. I like you too much.

Leah,

You've posted pictures from your new "Homeland" Would it be okay to put one of them on the "Snaps" link?

Good Morning Bethany,

I'll be leaving for church in a few...glad I caught you.

Alexandria, have you ever accepted Christ as your Savior?
I have. I don't think it counts anymore, though.

Alexandria, I think it counts. In fact, the very fact that you are struggling and searching right now, that suggests to me that the Holy Spirit is in you, drawing you towards God. MK made a good point, which I was going to touch on, that you cannot rely on your feelings, which change from day to day. Faith is not based on feelings.

I struggled with my assurance of salvation GREATLY as a teenager and as an adult. At one point, I used to cry out to God at night, every single night, asking Him to please save me, then wondering why I simply couldn't *feel* saved. I had heard so many testimonies from people who said they literally "felt a burden lifted from their shoulders", or "felt an extreme sense of peace" right after asking for salvation, but I had felt nothing. And this perplexed me, Alexandria.

It wasn't until, years later, that I realized it had absolutely nothing to do with my feelings, and it had everything to do with me having to accept God's promises in the Bible. He PROMISED that all I had to do was to ASK. That all I had to do was to TRUST. But the problem was, I wasn't trusting, because I was basing my trust on my fluctuating feelings.

I thought to myself, God made these promises, and He will keep them.

I kept index cards in my purse which helped me tremendously during this time. Here are a few examples:

Romans 10:9-10, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

This is one thing that comforted me. God didn't say, "you might" be saved. He didn't say, "You can be saved one moment then be unsaved the next". He said "Thou shalt be saved". End of story.

John 10:28, "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. "

If no one can pluck one out of God's hand, that includes you.

You, as well, cannot pluck yourself out of God's hand. He holds onto you and you will forever be His child. He will not leave you or forsake you based on some feelings of doubt. He did not forsake doubting Thomas, did He?

" for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.""

God is able to keep His promises to you. If you accepted Christ as Savior, God will honor His promise to you.

" 1 Peter 1:5. "Who are kept by the power of God, by faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." "

We are not kept by our own power, but through God's power.

"1 John 3:14, "We know we have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren.""

1 John 5:13, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God"

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

There are so many more, but I hope that these will give you a little comfort. I will pray that God will continue working in your heart, Alexandria.

Did you have faith as a child?
How much of a child are you talking about? As a young child, I mostly enjoyed the social aspects of church. I liked having an excuse to wear a dress, and I liked occasionally reciting Bible verses in front of all the older church members who would coo over us, and of course the pageants and skits, etc. I loved the children's sermons. At some point I became aware that while I liked all of it, I didn't actually believe the things I was reciting or acting out or being told, and that I never had. As I grew older I realized that my inability to believe was just part of a larger inability to believe in God.

I meant, when you were a child, you believed that Jesus died on the cross, without doubting that, you believed that He did so for you, and this is why you asked Him into your heart. As most little children, what I'm basically asking, is whether you believed the things your Sunday School teachers told you about God and Jesus, and if you did, and if you accepted Christ, you are saved.

You know, one way I always used to think of it was like how H2O can come in three physical states. It can be a gas (steam), a liquid (water), or a solid (ice), but it's still one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms -- it's still the same substance.

Alexandria, that is a brilliant analogy!
And I completely agree.

Good morning, MK!

Alexandra,
For a VERY long time I had been struggling with the concept of the trinity and it being one. I've had it explained to me in so many ways so that I could understand. I understood, I guess, but took it more as a faith thing than anything else. I've prayed about if for a while, and yes, God DOES answer prayer.

I thank you so much for your anaolgy about H2O. You have NO idea, how much I understand now thanks to that. It actually brought tears to my eyes. God surely answered my prayer through your analogy.

Thank you so much again for posting that!

mk 6:59,

I agree that reading about the saints is a wonderful way to learn about people who lived before us and struggled just as we do.

There are days when the only prayer I can muster is "Lord, thy will be done", and that is enough to get me through the day.

The Morning Offering is also a simple prayer one can say every day. My version is "Lord, I offer you my prayers, works, joys and sufferings of this day, in union with the (Holy Catholic) Church throughout the world." I like it because it is an offering of everything I do all day to God.

Also, it is good for non-Catholics to know that they can come sit in a Catholic Church any time they wish, the doors are almost always open. God bless you!

JLM, 10:30 AM
God sure does work in mysterious ways, doesn't He?
(hugs)

He sure does, Bethany! It's quite amazing!
(hugs back to you)

Patricia,

In response to the paragraph re: the Hindu faith:

So, what you're saying then, is that we were all born sinners, but God allows sin in Heaven, and that Jesus really didn't have to come to shed his blood to wash away the sin that God allows in Heaven. That God's plan from the beginning was just a bad joke, and that people don't need to believe in Jesus, or anything He said in the bible, that all they just need to do is to have good intentions while they are alive to get to Heaven?

That is most certainly NOT the teachings of Christ (hence, Christian faith). God was very clear over and over again in the bible that there is only one way to God, through Jesus Christ.

I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME." -- Jesus Christ (John 14:6)

I don't mean to sound offensive, but your comment above is calling Jesus a liar.

Posted by: JLM at February 23, 2008 10:51 PM

Thank you for your post JLM
Every person born after the fall of Adam and Eve has the stain of original sin on their soul. We are all prone to sin because our souls are weakened by this. This means our flesh and our spirit are not in perfect harmony as they were in Paradise and we are constantly struggling against the desires of our bodies. Hence, Jesus saying the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

God does not allow anything impure into heaven. Everyone who enters heaven must be completely without sin. If we are not purified in this life, we will be purified in the next life in Purgatory. I understand that most Christian faiths do not accept the doctrine of a place of purification after death.

However, if you look at yourself honestly and you were on your death bed today, could you honestly say that you are pure enough to go to heaven? You would want to be purified further, indeed desire it, before entering heaven.

This does not mean that Jesus' death and resurrection does not cover all our sins. It means that we must take responsibility for our sins but that there is punishment due to our sins. If you hammer a nail(sin) into wood (our souls) and you pull out the nail, the wood is not unblemished. It still contains the mark of the nail (sin) and that is removed through either temporal punishment (here on Earth) or after death in Purgatory.
I have to go to work this afternoon and wish a good day to all.
Patricia

Aww MK that is the cutest bunny ever! I can't wait to get mine in. The ones I picked were so very cuddly!

PIP:

You said, "One of the things I'm struggling with Hell--why would God give an infinite punishment for a mistake on Earth? Doesn't seem just."

PIP, you have to understand who we are in relation to God to answer this question and you have to understand what sin is. Sin is like an arrow missing its mark. We are fallen creatures deserving separation from God. God has every right to discard us to that place. The real question should be, "Why does God even care"? His requirement for fellowship is absolute perfection and holiness since for him to accept anything else would cause the Universe to collapse in utter annhilation. It would destroy God Himself. This is what satan's aim for abortion is.

Since God lives in the eternal realm, all that exists apart from Him in that realm is in Hell for He is the only source of life in eternity. It's state is desribed as an everlasting fire, absolute darkness, etc. We are warned repeatedley in this life that it's not a place where we should desire to go and I believe it. Why do I believe it? Because the physical world tells me that for every action there's an equal but opposite reaction. The opposite reaction to evil is punishment. Hell was not created for us, but for satan and the angels that rebelled against God with satan. All evil is dealt with in Hell.

This enemy of our soul, satan, whose desire is for us to join him in Hell since he is already condemned to go there.

Satan hates God and all that He loves including us. Satan tries to decieve us by getting us to question God, question His word, etc. His existence is evident by the comments and thinking patterns of many people who blog on this site. Their state of deception is evident.

And don't think we are so powerless and that one sin doesn't mean much. Do you know how much kinetic energy your body possesses? Think about this. You are spinning on the surface of the earth at a radius from its center of 7,000 miles at a radial velocity of 1,000 miles per hour. Not only that you are travlling in orbit around the sun at a radius of 93,000,000 miles at a radial velocity of 10,616 miles per hour. Then the whole solar system is travelling within the Milky Way at a zillion miles and hour and then the Milky Way Galaxy is travelling within the Universe another zillion miles and hour. Do you get the point? Relative to a fixed point in teh Universem the energy we possess is incalculable. Because we are spirits we have infinte energy and the physical realm proves it. One tiny sin is enough to destroy the Universe.

Christ died on the cross to pay for our sin debt. This is what's so amazing. That God found a way for us sinners, with the potetial to destroy the Universe, to still have fellowship with Him despite our sin. This is why we love Christ so much, because we realize what Hie did for us and at what cost.

Here's another thing. When people try to justify an abortion of even a zygote, they fail to realize that a zygote, even as small as it is, has infinte energy. Nothing, no matter how small or big, in insignificant to God. For He sees the whole picture.

The question at the end will be, "What did you do with my Son"? Our answer will be our end and we won't be able to lie about it."

"How could we neglect so wonderful a salvation".

I hear a lot of non-believers on this site talk about religion and describing us pro-lifers as religious. I despise religion. Religion is an attmept by man to reach God. Every such attmept is fruitless for there is not a scheme that man can devise that will make him acceptable to a holy God.

No, I am in a relationship to a Savior. A realtionship that was offerred to me by a Holy God. My acceptance of that realtionship qualifies me to fellowship with Him on His terms not mine. I do not consider myself religious at all and this is why I have such a problem with religions that rely on ritual and superstition. They are simply fruitless attempts reach a holy God on their own terms.

JLM,

We are created in the image of God.

We are body, mind and spirit, yet we are one, as God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, yet One.

Does that help?

Bethany, the question of capitalizing Qur'an is not one of religion--just proper English (although since you did it intentionally, then it is quite disrespectful). In English, we capitalize book titles. Saying "quran" is like saying "the cat in the hat" It's just proper English to capitalize.

The lack of apostrophe in "quran" however, is just incorrect transliteration. :)

Al-Qur'an: القرأن

The little mark on top of this:أ denotes a stop, which is written in English as an apostrophe. In case anyone was in the mood for an Arabic lesson this morning.

However, if you look at yourself honestly and you were on your death bed today, could you honestly say that you are pure enough to go to heaven? You would want to be purified further, indeed desire it, before entering heaven.

YES, I CAN!

1John 1:7-9

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from allsin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Jesus paid for ALL of my sins. Out of a love that cannot be comprehended, Jesus Christ paid for all of my sins, past, present and future. I am cleansed by His blood and pure in His sight.
Jesus said that His crucifixion completes the payment for sin. He hung suspended between the earth and heaven for six hours taking the brutal payment for your sins and mine. After He had taken on the sins of this whole sinful world, He said these words just before He died,
"It is finished."
John 19:30

Jesus didn’t just complete a “part” of it on the cross, He completed it ALL.

To say, "We must purify ourselves" negates the work that Jesus did and puts our salvation in your own hands. You'll NEVER make it in on your own.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The idea of purgatory negates what God Himself has said. You would have to wipe out much of the new testament, including Jesus’ own words, if the concept of purgatory was real.

The Catholic Church itself ADMITS that purgatory is their own invention. The Council of Trent took place in 1545 and approved this superstitious belief along with many others. The decrees were made by the council of MEN, not the God of the Bible. And those who would refuse to believe the decrees of Rome were under the threat of "anathema," and the curse has not yet been lifted to this day.

So yes, Patricia, I am sure beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I will go directly to heaven when I die because I was purified the moment I accepted Christ’s salvation for me.

Leah, would you should consider taking a vacation to Saudi-Arabia or Iran to learn more fully of the religon if Islam?

Any religion that denies the full deity of Jesus Christ is a false religion and not of God.

HisMan,

We are created in the image of God. Yes, that does help a great deal. Thank you so much! I'm feeling great today thanks to all of this help!

And I agree. Religion is the WORST thing that has ever happened to this world. Billions of people have been deceived through false religions. Religion didn’t die on the cross for us, Jesus Christ did!

@Jasper: My friend wants to travel to Saudi Arabia to learn more about it. She also wants to go to Egypt.

I take Middle Eastern dance classes...aka bellydancing. :-p

In addition to my 11:34 post, you said,

This does not mean that Jesus' death and resurrection does not cover all our sins. It means that we must take responsibility for our sins but that there is punishment due to our sins. If you hammer a nail(sin) into wood (our souls) and you pull out the nail, the wood is not unblemished. It still contains the mark of the nail (sin) and that is removed through either temporal punishment (here on Earth) or after death in Purgatory.

The "mark of the nail" was covered by Jesus' blood. He covered ALL sin, not just some of it. The only payment for sin is a blood sacrifice. Not fire...blood. And I thank the Lord every day for that one, complete sacrifice that He made for all sin so that we may have eternal life through his free gift.

"I hear a lot of non-believers on this site talk about religion and describing us pro-lifers as religious. I despise religion. Religion is an attmept by man to reach God. Every such attmept is fruitless for there is not a scheme that man can devise that will make him acceptable to a holy God".

"No, I am in a relationship to a Savior. A realtionship that was offerred to me by a Holy God. My acceptance of that realtionship qualifies me to fellowship with Him on His terms not mine. I do not consider myself religious at all and this is why I have such a problem with religions that rely on ritual and superstition. They are simply fruitless attempts reach a holy God on their own terms."

Posted by: HisMan at February 24, 2008 11:14 AM

I was surprised when I read this, I would have taken you for a religious man (no offense intended). Your reasons for despising religion are not clear to me. Can you explain what you mean by "His terms" and "our terms". What is "fellowship"? It's a word I hear, but I don't really know what it means. What is wrong with man trying to reach God?

Do we not each have our own unique experience in life as unique as the soul God gives each of us? Are not our human lives are full of traditions such as celebrations of birthdays, weddings, holidays, graduations, etc. For some of us, religion is an expression of love for God that is full of tradition too. What you may call ritual and superstition, I would call "tradition". Would God be offended by our creating beautiful music for His ears? Or building beautiful churches? The beauty around us is a sign of God's creation. Why would He object to our using what He created to give Him praise and thanksgiving?

Going to mass, I'll be back later.

Oh Jasper. Your ignorance tickles me. I understand the situation in Saudi Arabia, and I understand that that is what happens when you base a country entirely off of a religion: people abuse it. Many things that take place in Saudi Arabia are, in fact, not based off of Islam, but severe misinterpretations of the Qur'an. I have NO doubt that the same thing would happen if a country were based off of Christianity.

If you want to know what happens when power falls into the wrong hand and what happens with misinterpretations, THEN you go to Saudi Arabia. But in any case, I don't think they allow tourists.

Have you been to Saudi Arabia, Jasper? Have you ever been outside of the United States?

@Hisman and JLM,

would laugh a bit here but I know you guys are serious. Read St. John's gospel when he refers to us as 'adopted children of God'. Children of a family typically have a tag of association like: I'm from the Smith family. IMO such a tag as 'religion' seems appropriate because we are not called 'God's unique creations' but His children.

Also Jesus Christ is not my savior ... Jesus is. The word 'Christ' means 'savior' and why St. Paul often says 'Christ Jesus'. I do not say Jesus Savior Savior. 'Christ' is not a last name...

We are created as God's image, but we have/had a difficult time finding-out/living what this means. Voila: Jesus is the superior Image of God being both God and man and we live in Him as Jesus lives in Abba....(Jesus' prayer at the Last Supper). So a ritual is not a repeat performance, it is entering into God's Life (the eternal now). It is entering into His presence now and joining in our salvation ... which does not begin at death, but at baptism.

Gotta do my laundry now!

John

John,
It's ok to laugh at what I said. I don't mind. It wouldn't be the first time and most certainly wouldn't be the last.

Jesus was laughed at and mocked also. If people did this to Him, why should I expect anything less?

Matthew 1:1
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christwas on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Mark 1:1
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Acts 3:6
Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Acts 3:20
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Acts 4:10
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christof Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Acts 5:24
42And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

Although this is not an exhaustive list of all of the verses throughout the KJV, it pretty much can tell us that is perfectly OK to call Jesus, Jesus Christ.

FYI, there are a total of 187 verses in the bible with the exact wording, "Jesus Christ".

JLM 11:34 AMEN!

Thank you, Bethany.
I thank God for that!!!

I believe the correct term is Jesus the Christ...

As for the Muslim thing, the do believe in the same God that we do...They believe in the personage of God from the Old Testament.

If you are going to use the example that they don't accept Jesus as divine, then you would have to say that Jews do not believe in the same God as Christians. They do not believe in all three persons of the Trinity, but we all believe in the God of Abraham.

As for Hell, I just finished listening to a tape this morning by Scott Hahn called "Where in the Hell"...

Some points he made:

You know when you tell your teenager that they are grounded and they stomp off? They aren't sorry one bit for what they did? Instead they hate you.
And while they may accept the punishment, they stew in their bedroom for hours?

This is much the way souls are in hell. They take the punishment and regret having to live with it, but they do NOT regret the actions that got them there.

If a man broke into your home and murdered your wife and children, and a police officer was right outside the door and did nothing, wouldn't you be miffed at him? Well, when God allows people to go to hell he is also protecting us (those who choose to go to heaven) from them. Much as a police officer would come in and take the offender off in handcuffs. And then he would be judged and hopefully be put in jail for life. Now why don't we put him in jail for just 25 minutes or so...because, he is not sorry for murdering your family. He is only sorry that he is in jail. And he must be kept there because he is harmful to the rest of us.

Also, a person is not sent to hell until the very last moment. The "hour of death" of which you have heard me speak. Up until that moment it is always possible to reject hell and embrace God. To come into the light. To choose a different end.

But if God truly gives us free will and we reject Him, then wouldn't He be breaking His own rules by forcing us to spend eternity with Him, when that is NOT what we have chosen?

JLM, are you comparing yourself to Jesus? A bit heady of you, in my opinion.

Remember what you said about Mother Teresa? It wasn't that she didn't believe, but that she didn't feel. It struck me when you said this.

If I had to rely on feelings for my faith, I'd fail miserably. Faith isn't an emotion. It's more like a verb. Sometimes you feel it, sometimes you don't.

Otherwise, it becomes all about you, instead of all about Him.

I understand that, mk, but as I said before -- you may say that religion is about truth or whatever word you choose, not feeling, but would you have the strength to believe in it in your darkest moments if you did not FEEL, on some level, that it was true? If you had never felt that it was true?

I have been to Catholic services before. One of the things I disliked about a Protestant church I used to visit was that they said that it was sad how Catholics felt like they needed a priest to talk to God for them, which struck me as a stupid way to look at it. I figured that even just the act of confessing your sins to a person rather than just to God helps to provide a support network on this earth -- which I thought might be helpful specifically because if you leave it all up to your own feelings on your personal relationship with God then your "support" depends entirely on how much you can feel God's presence, whereas if you've got other people pulling for you and encouraging you things don't get so lonely even at their worst. Of course, I couldn't feel God's presence at all, so maybe that's why I thought the presence of other people might be comforting. ;)

Honestly, I very much appreciate the kind words from people on this site -- but stories where people describe an emptiness or loneliness before returning to (or finding) their faith are basically the opposite of my life as of yet. I felt kind of lonely and empty until I gave myself permission not to try anymore, and that was the point at which I really started to appreciate my life much more.

Oops, sorry mk, all of those first three paragraphs were yours and were supposed to be in italics. Whoops!

Bethany, I appreciated your story. I have always been bad at those trust games where you're supposed to fall back onto your friend's arms and trust them to catch you. Come to think of it, we played that game a lot in Sunday School, and I was consistently one of the worst ones.

Back when I used to really think about it, I'd wonder if God would create a person so incapable of believing and trusting Him and then damn her to hell because she had no faith. Eventually I kind of just naturally came to the conclusion that if there is a God, I can't wrap my mind around the concept much less trust in it, and even less so believe that people know what He wants, so all I can do is live my life so that it benefits this world as best as I can reasonably make it.

Alexndra,

I can't speak for other people but I didn't feel lonliness so much as sort of, I don't know, at sea.

I was having a great time, but it didn't feel right.
I know that I just used the word "feel" but by that I mean that I knew I wasn't where I was meant to be.

It is possible to be happy without God. It is possible to feel pleasure. But you can't experience "joy" without Him.

It's possible to be a good person without Him. But again that is putting the focus on yourself.

The reason I think you would like the Catholic Church (although you might not like the "rules") is that it is so precise. There is a reason for everything and it all fits together in a way that just sort of "clicks".

I agree with you about confession. It's wonderful to speak to God. But at the moment of confession, the priest is "taken over" by God, "becomes" God and as such can give me some feedback. Plus there is the whole sanctifying Grace thing, which the protestant church doesn't offer. That Grace, I believe, is the thing that you are saying is "missing". It's like food. Or better yet, it's like special glasses. When you are in a "state of Grace" you can see things so much more clearly because you are looking at the world through "mystical" lenses. You see what other people can't see, unless they too, are in a state of Grace.

And of course, there is the Body and Blood of Jesus, that simply being in the room with, changes you.

I would ask you to not give up. And as Janet suggested, perhaps find a Catholic Church that you could just sit in and read some good books. I think you'll be amazed at what happens to you.

Could you/Would you ever consider doing this? Not going to Mass, but after, when the church is virtually empty? And reading a book or two while you were there? Just for a couple of weeks. I'd look for an older church if possible. Don't know where you are, but if you give me your zipcode I could find one for you.

I'm sure you can tell, that many of us here are rooting for you and are now praying for you. Don't be surprised by any miracles or "weird" stuff that starts happening in your life. There are some powerful prayer warriors on this website.

I love what you said about "other people" pulling for you. We in the Catholic Church often call on the "Communion of Saints" in times of darkness.

Imagine all the saints, angels and loved ones in heaven watching you run this race and they all just keep yellin' "GO GO GO, you CAN do it!" Talk about a cheering section!

And never underestimate His mother. Sometimes in the beginning, it's easier to talk to her, especially if you yourself are a woman. No worries, it won't be long before she leads you straight to Himself, hands you over and rejoices with that holy host of heaven...

Peace,
We're all here for you.
MK

Alexandra,

May I just add, that one of the reasons you might have felt lonley last time around is because you were trying to please people instead of Him? Sometimes, it can be really hard to find Him when all kinds of "people" are watching to see if you're doing it "well enough".

Bethany, I appreciated your story. I have always been bad at those trust games where you're supposed to fall back onto your friend's arms and trust them to catch you. Come to think of it, we played that game a lot in Sunday School, and I was consistently one of the worst ones.

Not to pry, but is there possibly a set of circumstances which made you feel like you couldn't - or shouldn't- trust anyone?

It doesn't sound like the problem is limited solely to God, which makes me wonder if someone hurt you in some way, which made you feel that you could not trust people or God.

I think that some of my trust issues were very much a result of things that had happened in my past- some very small and seemingly insignificant, and others much larger and harder for me to deal with.

Those things, without my even realizing it, kind of made me want to put a barrier up and not trust certain people and things because of those events in my past.

Young children are most of the time naturally trusting- and when they are not able to trust, it many times does mean that there is something going on in their life; there is usually some reason they're trying to protect themselves by not having that trust.

Does any of that make sense, or am I just rambling? I hope you understand what I'm trying to get at. :-)

@Leah,

I would tend to agree with you about the word 'the' except being Christ is not a function as a job is a function, but a designation that characterizes Jesus' being. It is something like the name 'Peter' whose original name is Simon. It is a hallmark of a new era when God renames someone!

The only reason I brought it up at all because it drives me crazy when the words Jesus Christ are used exclusively in that order, as if Christ was Jesus' last name. Very often St. Paul switches these two words and says 'Christ Jesus'.

Such is astounding and tends to shake up people who have not reflected on the person too often. Much can also be said about our translation of 'Abba' as the formal 'Father' and not the familiar 'Dad' or 'Daddy'.

((As an aside: 'Abba' is Jesus exclusive word for God. Nobody, comes even remotely close. And it is precisely His insistence of being so familiar with God ... that He was crucified for it .... love Abba you must be crazy (or killable) ... everyone knows we must fear God.))

We folks in the English world are all familiar with the derivation of Jesus as 'Word'. This is indeed brilliant. but the Greek word used by John is 'Logos' which is close to meaning the 'mind of God'.

John

"reject hell and embrace God"

Would this mean God as an almighty all forgiving entity out of love or you must "accept Jesus as your personal savior" in order to embrace Him?

Well Pip,

We are under the impression that if you embrace God, you would eventually be led to Jesus, as He is the Truth.

So if you are embracing God and not embracing an ideology, you won't be able to help but find Jesus.

Bethany, I was very fortunate in my childhood and adolescence, so nothing that would jeopardize my natural ability to trust ever happened, to my knowledge. I just always kind of had a pretty low threshold for "things I'll believe with little evidence." And it's not a problem necessarily with trusting people, but with trusting concepts/ideas/theories/what-have-you. I was always the kid in kindergarten asking "why?" or "how do you know?"

mk,

I wouldn't be opposed to reading some books in churches. As I said when you asked why I come to pro-life sites if I'm not pro-life, I generally try to understand as many points of view as I can, as fully as I can, so that I feel as solid and informed in my own opinions as I possibly can. I live in New York City, but I'd rather not put my zip code out in public since zip codes cover a relatively small physical area in a city this size. (Reading the things some people have written here, I might come home to a pro-life protest outside my apartment one day or something! lol) I'd e-mail it to you or something, though. I put my e-mail address in the "post a comment" information, but I have no idea if that lets you e-mail me.

As for the Muslim thing, the do believe in the same God that we do...They believe in the personage of God from the Old Testament.

NO, THEY DO NOT!

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Pay attention here:

1 John 2:22-23
22, Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23, Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Muslims outright deny the Sonship of Jesus Christ; therefore, Islam is of the Devil. According to scripture, mk, not according to me.

MK, that is VERY clear. Muslims DO NOT believe that Jesus is the Son of God, who IS God. They DO NOT believe in the same God as Christians do. Without believing in Jesus Christ, you cannot, and I repeat CANNOT believe in the one, true God. Period.

Alexandra,

It does. I'll email you. And you can always email me by clicking on my name in the moderators box.

I want to address your comment about trusting that which is "knowable"...

It's funny but just this morning my husband and I were discussing the priest that said my mass.

He tends to be very direct and very simple in his homilies (sermons). This tends to bother some of my friends, but it doesn't bother me in the least.
He doesn't say anything doctrinally incorrect, he doesn't condone anything he shouldn't, he just isn't very "deep".

My husband adores him.

Recently I was having the same conversation with a few close friends. I told them that not all priests are deep thinkers just as all people are not all deep thinkers and that while we might prefer our homilies to be "mystical" and "intense" others would be freaked out by that...so this priest has an audience, just as priests that we prefer have an audience. They just might not be the same audience (I don't mean audience as in entertainment).

This priest is a Canon Lawyer. He thinks in facts and words and numbers and provables and logic. He's not reading books on the mystics or exorcisms or angels. He's reading books on doctrine and law.

This doesn't make him any better or worse than my "favorite" priests. It just means that his talents lie in a different place and he will reach like minded people.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't try to be like every other "Christian", just try to be like Alexandra. Alexandra who accepts that God exists and loves her. He lived a long time ago and through some mechanism that we don't understand he still lives today. And more importantly, he still loves you today.

Then you can find the path that suits you best, whether it be ethical science, or translating Hebrew, or Canon Law. God made your mind the way He did for a reason, and if you let Him, He will show you that reason.

You just might not be a touchy feely kind of person and your experience is not going to be the same as, say, mine. I cry at the drop of a hat.
Heck, I get weepy over new grass.

You have a purpose. You are who you are and you aren't who you aren't. The church needs all of us.

God Bless,
Mk

JLM:

You're right. Allah (Islam's god) and Yahweh (Judaism's and Christianity's God) have no resemblance to each other at all. It's not only what you call your God but it is also important as to how your God acts. Jesus Christ is the full revelation of who the Father is. If you reject Jesus as the Son of God, which Islam does, you reject Jesus, and therefore any chance of reaching God. At best, Islam is a man made religion. If you read anything about Mohammed he was NOT a good person and anything but godly.

Islam teaches that Jesus was a great prophet but not the Son of God. This is ludicrous. Jesus was either the Son of God or a lunatic. No fence sitting allowed here.

Janet:

God created each person with an innate desire to seek Him. Since man was created there has been an inborn desire for him to worship or, to find God. If you look at all ancient cultures, milllions of false gods have been conjured up by man's imagaination or by demonically inspired activities in an attempt to reach or get to God, and all, every single one, in vain. There is nothing that we can give God that he does not already possess. There is nothing we can do to impress God since He is the author of all ideas and intelligence. God does not need us, we need Him.

Look at the Greek gods for instance. Zeus does not exist. Athena does not exist, Mercury, Pluto, etc., etc., etc. Where are all these false gods, including Allah?

God revealed himself through the Jewish culture via the Prophets who for the most part, the Jews rejected. Typically, they chased after the false gods of other cultures. Finally, in fulfillment of prophecies made 1,000's of years prior, in the form of a baby, concieved of the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin through the line of David and in fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant, Jesus Christ or Emmanuel was born, fully man, fully God; God's full revelation of Himself to man. Jesus Christ was no invention of man but God reaching down to man desirous of a relationship but that without compromise and under His terms and conditions.

Jesus repeatedley taught that He only did and said what the Father commanded, indicating their oneness. He repeatedley taught that to reject Him was to reject the Father. He taught that He was the Way, the Truth and the Life, and that no man could come to the Father except through Him.

Paul said in Galations 1, "6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! 10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ."

Therefore, God's terms for relationship are simply, "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased, listen to Him."

There will be no more revelation from God since He has provided all that will be given. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, the only unforgivable sin mentioned in the Bible, is rejecting the only remedy for sin, Jesus Christ. Why is it unforgivable? Because the Holy Spirit is now the acting agent on earth. He speaks to us directly, through believers and through the word. When the word is spoken, the hearers are either rejecting it or accepting it. When we reject teh Holy Spirit we are rejecting God's appeal to our hearts. To finally and ultimately reject Jesus fully even until the last breath is unforgivable since there is NO OTHER remedy that God has offered and certainly man's attempts at satisfying the demands of a holy God (religion) are fruitless.

Thank you, HisMan!

:)

JLM

With all due respect, and I mean that, please understand that it is okay to think differently. A couple of weeks ago, a whole slew of us got into a protestant/catholic discussion (and it went very well) but it was quite draining.

We came to the conclusion that we simply don't have the same definitions of certain words and that much of our disagreements stemmed from this. Once saved, grace, sola scriptura, Our Lady, The pope...these are our differnces, yet in spite of them, we came away respecting each other and those very differences.

I mean no disprespect to you or your faith of choice. We both believe in the Trinity, that Jesus died and rose, carrying OUR cross for us, and that without Him we'd pretty much be up the creek.

We will just have to agree to disagree about the Muslim thing.

I stand by what I said. You can think differently. It won't affect me or my faith, just as my believing that Ishmael believed in the God of Abraham should not affect you or yours.

It will also have no bearing on whether or not people reading these posts will come to be Christian or leave the Christian Faith.

We simply have a different understanding. But please don't "yell" at me. I didn't say what I did to upset you. Peace, MK

Hisman,

You know I love you. Deeply. I have the utmost respect for the way you love God and know scripture.

Nowhere did I say that people who believe in Islam are saved nor that their faith was equal to ours. I simply said that their faith is based on belief in the same God that we believe in from the Old Testament. Just like the Jews. They don't accept Jesus, no, and therefore are NOT Christians. And while God says that to reject His Son is to reject Him, that is part of the New Testament. Obviously, they are not reading or accepting the New Testament. Therefore pointing out that Jesus has been here all along is a bit disingenuous. He may have existed, but He hadn't yet revealed Himself to us. So all believers of the Old Testament were unaware of Him. The fact that they still reject Him today, is, I agree, problematic. But I still hold that they believe in the same God the Father that we do.

@JLM.

... my initials too .... but perhaps it is time for a bit of a stretch. Usually when I hear talk of 'I believe in Jesus' a person remains remote ... like I believe in South Africa, though I've never been there. It's this remoteness about some kinds of faith that Benedict XVI said "Even the devil believes in Jesus, he just doesn't love Him."

There is another sense of belief. In Christianity we talk of the in-dwelling Spirit ... kinda like entering/becoming-one with the flame who is God. A believer is 'in' God so believes as God believes. So when a Christian believer says: 'I believe in Jesus', he is saying that he believes AS Jesus.

I do not sense this is what you mean ... so tread very cautiously when confronting another's belief systems, especially MK's. ... or Leah's for that matter!

John

Satan hates God and all that He loves including us. Satan tries to decieve us by getting us to question God, question His word, etc. His existence is evident by the comments and thinking patterns of many people who blog on this site. Their state of deception is evident.

HisMan,
You are SO right!

John

My hero!

I hear you. Too often I think we get hung up on "who is saved" and "who is not". While God definitely gave us a path to follow, I think he meant that we should use it to judge ourselves...not others.

I don't think you can say that Muslims are condemned until every last one of them are dead, because who knows what tomorrow might bring. I cannot say how God is leading my Muslim brothers. I can only plant seeds, pray, offer up my suffering, and hope for the best. But I will not, no, I will not, stand in judgment of others beliefs.

I know that my journey was quite bumpy and many, many times I thought I had finally "GOTTEN IT". Well, I had "GOTTEN IT" all right! "GOTTEN IT WRONG"...over and over and yet each time I was so sure.

At any given time, somebody looking at me, could have said "That girl is going to hell in a handbasket", but they would have been wrong. Because I was where I was and God was not finished with me yet. It's like putting HIM in a Cartesian box!

Anyhow, thanks for coming to my rescue. I knew you'd understand. A good father understands His children and knows that some need more time, more prayers or more understanding. It was those that screamed "I KNOW" that he condemned, not those that said "I Don't get it"...It was these that He showed the most mercy.

Saved? Not saved? Not my job, man. Just spreadin' His word, spreading the Truth as I know it, and praying like there's no tomorrow...

mk & John,
I quoted scripture in my posts.

Is it a problem you have with me, or a problem you have with scripture?

JLM,

I have no problem with either scripture or you. I am only saying that we both believe the same things and that fighting amongst ourselves is pointless and unnecessary.

I think that it is counterproductive to point out the myriad of ways you can't get to heaven when it would be so much more beneficial to point out all the ways that you can, and to do it in a way that makes people want what you have. Sometimes I think we make people hate who we are and that defeats the purpose of evangelizing.

Again, whether Muslims do or do not believe in the God of Abraham has no bearing on whether I am a Christian or not.

But condemning Muslims might keep them from hearing what you have to say and instead of inviting them to our faith, we have scared them off.

I agree that Christs' words were strong and definite. But let Him do the judging. If we judged ourselves half as critically as we judge others the world would be a better place.

Is your goal to be right? Or to bring more souls to Him?

I have no problem with either scripture or you. I am only saying that we both believe the same things and that fighting amongst ourselves is pointless and unnecessary.

No we don't.
I never thought we were "fighting".

I think that it is counterproductive to point out the myriad of ways you can't get to heaven when it would be so much more beneficial to point out all the ways that you can, and to do it in a way that makes people want what you have. Sometimes I think we make people hate who we are and that defeats the purpose of evangelizing.

Again, I post scripture. There is only one way to get to Heaven, not several ways.

As you said in one of your posts to Alexadra, "be who you are". This isme, mk. This is what God has created, and I am one of His children. I do pray before I post. If someone hates me because of the Truth, then so be it. I'm not concerned about ME, I'm concerned about THEM, and their eternal lives. Sometimes the truth is difficult to take in, mk, but it's a seed. Again, I post scripture. I'm truly sorry that you see that as being "harsh".

Again, whether Muslims do or do not believe in the God of Abraham has no bearing on whether I am a Christian or not.

But condemning Muslims might keep them from hearing what you have to say and instead of inviting them to our faith, we have scared them off.

It's not going to have a bearing on my faith, either, mk. But God's word will never hurt someone.

I have never condemned Muslims. I quoted scripture, and that is the Truth. Again, I am sorry if you think that the scripture I posted was "harsh" or "condemning".

I agree that Christs' words were strong and definite. But let Him do the judging. If we judged ourselves half as critically as we judge others the world would be a better place.

I never judged. Again, I quoted the scriptures. Let them speak for themselves.

Is your goal to be right? Or to bring more souls to Him?

God is right. God's word is right. The scripture is right. His word will bring more souls to Him. I cannot.

Without Christ, our lives end at death, and there would probably be nothing more to it. Without Christ, we are only as valuable as we perceive ourselves to be, or as others value us (as Doug's type of logic will explain).

With Christ, there is more, there is life after death, and we do not have to live a life in vain, only to eventually just die and be forgotten.

Bethany, I think it stems from fear of death, wanting there to be an afterlife, etc. Christ, the Bible, etc., are themselves perceptions. I think a lot of people get a lot of good out of religion.

Doug

JLM

And I am sorry if came across as heated. I've gotten a "visitor" today and it's been months (goin' on 50) so I'm a little temperamental and VERY short on patience tonight.

I guess I just feel that sometimes we make these guys want to kill us, instead of join us. I can understand your words because I agree with them, but I think "outsiders" need a gentler approach. I'm not saying to gloss over the truth, just to give it in smaller doses. Too much can overwhelm people and then they are running before they have a chance to listen. Does that make sense?

Sorry if I go out of hand. I just worry that we'll lose more souls than save...

HisMan,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I agree with much of what you say, but then a few things you say are puzzling to me. I certainly do not know scripture anywhere near the same level as you so we are coming from very different places in our faith. That's OK. God bless you.

Doug,

While I hear what you are saying, I would venture to say that Christians, true Christians, are the least afraid to die people you'll ever meet.

I know you desperately want to put us in a cute little cartoon and say "aren't they adorable with their little God and their sweet naive beliefs" but you are so, so wrong.

There is nothing sweet or naive about being a Christian. It's tough. It's often grueling. It requires strength when strength is needed, humility when humility is needed, courage, love, patience, persistance...do you think there aren't moments when it would be easier to say "Hey, I think I'll just think like Doug for awhile and chuck it all! Do whatever I want for a change!"

Get real! Answering to nobody but yourself? Now that is easy. Try being a Christian for a week Doug. One week, and so all the things that are expected of you. Change your entire way of life, lose life long friends, have people insinuate that you are a fruitcake (a sweet fruitcake, but a fruitcake nonetheless), bite back the words that spring to your lips, listen to God tell you all the ways you failed today...you couldn't handle it.

And because you view us as complete morons, you'd never understand the joy that comes from that ridiculous belief system.

mk,
I'm sorry your visitor is visiting!

I really don't feel that you agree with my "words", though. But it was nice to say.

Last note,
We cannot save souls. Only God can do that. God's word is powerful in itself, so maybe that's why it appears harsh.

Have a good night, and get some rest. That always seems to help!

God bless you.

JLM,

When I say "your words" I guess I meant scripture. And the fact that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Yes, I do understand this. But I understand them because I already believe them.

I'm not arguing with what you are saying. Not at all. Jesus died for us. To deny that is most definitely to jeopardize your salvation.

I'm only saying that to people that don't believe that, all they hear is DO IT MY WAY OR ELSE...

It's really the delivery I question.

No, of course I can't save anyone. But I can help lead souls to Him. I must help lead souls to Him. Because it pleases Him that I do so.

If I gave you the impression that I think I, personally can save souls, then you have misread me.

In the Catholic Church we often pray to "save a soul", or "save the poor souls in purgatory"...it's a turn of phrase. Just like when we say we pray TO Mary, we mean we ask Mary to pray for us and with us...it's really just lingo.

I forget that you don't understand our "language"...I'll try to be more careful. But honestly, there is not a Catholic on here that read "we are trying to save souls here" and thought that I meant I, MK, am trying to save souls.

There is saving souls and then there is Saving Souls...

And on that note, you're right, I should get a cup of tea and hit the hay...good heavens, I just yelled at Doug!

Sorry Doug!

Bad MK, Bad, nasty, cranky, hormonal MK.

MK:

I love and respect you deeply as well. You are a tremendoulsy positive influence on this site and balance out my coarse delivery.

Allah is not Yahweh, Jehovah, Elohim, El Shaddai, ad infinitum.

You are wrong when you say that Islam and Jews/Christians worship or believe in the same god and I believe Ishmael would agree. If you'd like I can present an essay on that theme.

Sometime during the period between Ishmael and the emergence of the name Allah, there evolved a vast divergence between the God of the Jews and the god of the Arabs/Persian, etc. Allah does not exist. Yahweh does and always has. Now I can write an essay on the life of Mohammed and it would sicken many on this site. Very simply, he was an egotistical monster. And I would say that to any Muslim's face.

Muslims need to be told the truth. If they do not repent from their faith in a non-existent Allah they will perish eternally.

You win people to God by telling them the truth not by candy coating your faith. Besides it is not we who win souls but God. We are simply the messengers. If we cannot plant the proper seeds, we won't get the proper harvest. Never, not ever did Jesus compromise what the Father told Him to say. He told Peter, "Get behind me satan"!!!!! Why, because Peter's mindset up to that point was not born of the Spirit but of the flesh.

The Word of God, is the Sword of the Spirit. When a man hears it, it cuts through the garbage and exposes a man to himself. He either humbly accepts it and repents or he rejects it and gets angry at the messenger. Christ was not crucified because He said nice, loving things with flowers and perfume coming from His mouth. No, He spoke the truth and people either loved Him or hated Him. Most hated Him. The Muslim faith is simply a mob reaction to the truth and we should not be surprised by their mentality. Ever heard of a union?

I am really, really trying to hold back on all I know about the Catholic influence and its vast divergence from the simplicity of Scripture, primarily because of the tradition doctrine, however, I really, really don't want to offend you. Besides, the most important thing is Christ and not our diferences and it is wrong to air out our dirty laundry before non-believers. As far as I am concerned, Christians are united by their faith in Christ, period.

Now regarding the term judgement. Judgement is saying, "HisMan, you are going to ......" or FetusFacist you are going to ......". First of all this is a lie, because none of knows what anyone's eternal destiny is.

Now having said that, saying, "God's word says that all who reject Christ are eternally lost", is not judgement it is telling the truth, it is prohesying, it is teaching, it is not judgement. Otherwise, there should be no sermons, no teaching, no preaching, no admonishing, no rebuking.

Now, since the Muslim faith requires that its adherents reject Christ as the Son of God and because the word says that all who reject Christ are lost, I am simply telling people what the word says. Now if a Muslim hears that, I could see where they probably would get angry since that statement would be stating that all of their dead relatives are in hell. Is there another way to put it without compromising it? We either love God or hate Him.

"Otherwise, there should be no sermons, no teaching, no preaching, no admonishing, no rebuking."

I would be fine with that. :)

"We either love God or hate Him."

Only a Sith deals in absolutes...

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."

Is that an absolute statement?

Obi Wan Kenobi also lied to Luke in Episode IV and then tried to pawn it off as a "certain point of view" in Episode VI. Not the best role model.

mk:

I understand what you meant! You soul-saver you..

JLM,

I respect your knowledge of scripture. God's word is powerful all right, but we don't need to hit people over the head with it, if you know what I mean. Some people don't learn very well that way.

@Bobby: C'mon...Obi-Wan Kenobi was the shiznits. :-p

The Jedis were awfully hypocritical, weren't they? That's probably why I cheered for Darth Vader for the whole "Original Series" because Luke and Yoda annoyed me.

HisMan, you know so much about your idea of God, which is a really admirable thing. But I can tell you absolutely 100% money-back guarantee that there is middle ground between love and hate--ALWAYS.

If you really, really want to get picky we should all be calling Jesus the Christ; Yeshua-Messiah.

Look we all know who we are talking about when we say Jesus Christ. We can say, the man/god, or:
Advocate (1 John 2:1)
Almighty (Rev. 1:8; Mt. 28:18)
Alpha and Omega (Rev. 1:8; 22:13)
Amen (Rev. 3:14)
Apostle of our Profession (Heb. 3:1)
Atoning Sacrifice for our Sins (1 John 2:2)
Author of Life (Acts 3:15)
Author and Perfecter of our Faith (Heb. 12:2)
Author of Salvation (Heb. 2:10)
Beginning and End (Rev. 22:13)
Blessed and only Ruler (1 Tim. 6:15)
Bread of God (John 6:33)
Bread of Life (John 6:35; 6:48)
Bridegroom (Mt. 9:15)
Capstone (Acts 4:11; 1 Pet. 2:7)
Chief Cornerstone (Eph. 2:20)
Chief Shepherd (1 Pet. 5:4)
Christ (1 John 2:22)
Creator (John 1:3)
Deliverer (Rom. 11:26)
Eternal Life (1 John 1:2; 5:20)
Gate (John 10:9)
Faithful and True (Rev. 19:11)
Faithful Witness (Rev. 1:5)
Faithful and True Witness (Rev. 3:14)
First and Last (Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13)
Firstborn From the Dead (Rev. 1:5)
Firstborn over all creation (Col. 1:15)
Gate (John 10:9)
God (John 1:1; 20:28; Heb. 1:8; Rom. 9:5; 2 Pet. 1:1;1 John 5:20; etc.)
Good Shepherd (John 10:11,14)
Great Shepherd (Heb. 13:20)
Great High Priest (Heb. 4:14)
Head of the Church (Eph. 1:22; 4:15; 5:23)
Heir of all things (Heb. 1:2)
High Priest (Heb. 2:17)
Holy and True (Rev. 3:7)
Holy One (Acts 3:14)
Hope (1 Tim. 1:1)
Hope of Glory (Col. 1:27)
Horn of Salvation (Luke 1:69)
I Am (John 8:58)
Image of God (2 Cor. 4:4)
Immanuel (Mt. 1:23)
Judge of the living and the dead (Acts 10:42)
King Eternal (1 Tim. 1:17)
King of Israel (John 1:49)
King of the Jews (Mt. 27:11)
King of kings (1 Tim 6:15; Rev. 19:16)
King of the Ages (Rev. 15:3)
Lamb (Rev. 13:8)
Lamb of God (John 1:29)
Lamb Without Blemish (1 Pet. 1:19)
Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45)
Life (John 14:6; Col. 3:4)
Light of the World (John 8:12)
Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Rev. 5:5)
Living One (Rev. 1:18)
Living Stone (1 Pet. 2:4)
Lord (2 Pet. 2:20)
Lord of All (Acts 10:36)
Lord of Glory (1 Cor. 2:8)
Lord of lords (Rev. 19:16)
Man from Heaven (1 Cor. 15:48)
Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15)
Mighty God (Isa. 9:6)
Morning Star (Rev. 22:16)
Offspring of David (Rev. 22:16)
Only Begotten Son of God (John 1:18; 1 John 4:9)
Our Great God and Savior (Titus 2:13)
Our Holiness (1 Cor. 1:30)
Our Husband (2 Cor. 11:2)
Our Protection (2 Thess. 3:3)
Our Redemption (1 Cor. 1:30)
Our Righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30)
Our Sacrificed Passover Lamb (1 Cor. 5:7)
Power of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Precious Cornerstone (1 Pet. 2:6)
Prophet (Acts 3:22)
Rabbi (Mt. 26:25)
Resurrection and Life (John 11:25)
Righteous Branch (Jer. 23:5)
Righteous One (Acts 7:52; 1 John 2:1)
Rock (1 Cor. 10:4)
Root of David (Rev. 5:5; 22:16)
Ruler of God’s Creation (Rev. 3:14)
Ruler of the Kings of the Earth (Rev. 1:5)
Savior (Eph. 5:23; Titus 1:4; 3:6; 2 Pet. 2:20)
Son of David (Lk. 18:39)
Son of God (John 1:49; Heb. 4:14)
Son of Man (Mt. 8:20)
Son of the Most High God (Lk. 1:32)
Source of Eternal Salvation for all who obey him (Heb. 5:9)
The One Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5)
The Stone the builders rejected (Acts 4:11)
True Bread (John 6:32)
True Light (John 1:9)
True Vine (John 15:1)
Truth (John 1:14; 14:6)
Way (John 14:6)
Wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Word (John 1:1)
Word of God (Rev. 19:13)

etc., etc., conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin, healed the sick, raised the dead, was tried, convicted, crucified on a cross, was resurrected and will be returning.

It's simpler to say Jesus Christ.

Leah:

Please explain yourself. I am not sure I understand. Are you saying that God is a compromiser?

Hehe, Ari-chan. Good stuff, ehh?

Ari-chan:

You must be a Vulcan.

Or, perhaps a Vulcan-Sith mongrel?

Sometimes I get Star Wars and Star Trek confused. What was it that Spock use to say? Nan-nu, nan-nu or was that Robin Wiliams or Bork or Spork or Vrignet?

But never confused on theological issues since it requires much more mental power and a degree of maturity.

@Bobby: Indeed. ^_^

@HisMan: I am a Vulcan, I have the store-bought pointy ears and everything!

Star Wars = Darth Vader, Death Star, Luke Skywalker, light sabers, and really bad dialog.

Star Trek = Cap'n Kirk, Spock (the Vulcan), The Enterprise, and poor dying red-shirts.

"Nan-nu Nan-nu" was Robin Williams on "Mork and Mindy". :)

I respect your knowledge of scripture. God's word is powerful all right, but we don't need to hit people over the head with it, if you know what I mean. Some people don't learn very well that way.
Posted by: Janet at February 24, 2008 8:30 PM

I'm only saying that to people that don't believe that, all they hear is DO IT MY WAY OR ELSE...
It's really the delivery I question.
Posted by: mk at February 24, 2008 8:08 PM

Although I thank you both for your comments, and respect them, I can't help to think that you are judging me. That's fine, if you'd like. I really don't mind.

Again, I am quoting scripture. As HisMan put it so eloquently, "The Word of God, is the Sword of the Spirit. When a man hears it, it cuts through the garbage and exposes a man to himself. He either humbly accepts it and repents or he rejects it and gets angry at the messenger."

I'll humbly take the beating, thank you.

HisMan, thank you for your posts.

Ahhh JLM,

So close to bed, yet so far...

I am not judging you. I am judging the delivery. No need to play martyr as I am not beating you. lol.

Carry on.

I just think there is an awful lot of scripture to choose from and that exposing a man to himself can be done in many ways. We both want the same thing. You do it your way. I'll do it mine. As long as the message is out there.

Peace.

Leah,

"But I can tell you absolutely 100% money-back guarantee that there is middle ground between love and hate--ALWAYS."

I think there is a certain sense in which this is true, but my guess is that in the sense that HisMan (and I) understands the terms "love" and "hate," there is no middle ground. By love, I think we mean "charity." Allow me to propose the following definitions;

charity- the theological virtue by which we love God for his own sake above all things and love our neighbor as ourselves.

hate- to wish ill or harm on another.

So in this sense, I think you would agree that one can not say "I somewhat love God above all things and have a bit of love for my neighbor, and I also wish a little bit of harm upon my neighbor." Does that make sense? I agree in kind of the everyday parlance, one can feel both hate and love for someone, but I think theologically the ideas are incompatible. God love you.

HI JLM,

"mk & John,
I quoted scripture in my posts.

Is it a problem you have with me, or a problem you have with scripture?
Posted by: JLM at February 24, 2008 7:09 PM
.......

I assume you know scripture inside out ... but that does not mean you grasp what it is saying. Just read the stories about Jesus being tempted by Satan with the words of scripture. So, rather than training my memory skills, I've asked and have received a gift of discerning a little of what is written in scripture. So when I point to some scriptural incident, I assume you have a good acquaintance with the words. I very rarely, deliberately do not swap chapter and verse because this is so filled with problems .... just one little example ... we get a sanctimonious fill thee's and thou's etc ` like its foreign English and this is not any part of ancient languages except old English, and scripture was already i5 centuries young before being translated into English. Speak modern-current words. The 'th' are just bs especially with good translations into English are readily available. Like I do not get spiritually appopleptic when I read 'Thy monkeyeth runneth overeth thee groundeth' .... the authors of scripture were not speech impaired and did not usually require a additional interpreter.

Bobby,

Do you get what I mean when I say "hitting someone over the head"? Is there a better way to say that? Maybe not? (From my post at 8:30.) God bless you.

Anon:

Use the NLT then.......Gee wiz!

Well, HisMan, I don't know God, but when I die I'll ask him if he is. However, that was not my implication. Human beings are VERY compromising creatures, however. I'll take myself as an example. Now, I have a very loving relationship with my idea of God. But my idea of what God is is not the same as yours. So you will say that I do not love God because yours is the only True God. BUT--I don't hate "your" God, HisMan. I may dislike your image (I'm not saying I do--I'm not well-versed enough in your idea to make that judgment), but I certainly don't, nor have I ever HATED God.

Now, I could go another way with this. Suppose you accepted my image of God as valid. Just humor me. I love God. But I have not always had this relationship with God. I used to have few religious convictions at all. But it was not a hatred towards God that I felt--a lack of feeling, perhaps. Or maybe not enough knowledge to draw a good conclusion on what I thought of God.

I know many people who do not LOVE God. But I know none who HATE Him.

I respect your opinions, HisMan, even as we disagree. You are obviously very knowledgeable about what you speak of. But I know that there is many a middle road between love and hate.

Feel free to respond to what I have to say, but I won't get back to you until tomorrow. I'm off for the evening.

Good to see you back, by the way!

JLM:

Keep fighting the good fight and long, no crave to hear those precious words, "well done thy good and faithful servant".

Aei-chan:

I've got to admit....I'm a Star Wars nut.

I love the overall theme of Star Wars which is....redemption.

No matter how bad a person is, i.e., Darth Vader....there is always a chance for redemption.

It is my opinion that Star Wars is a deeply spiritual story. There's good versus evil, a satan, a redeemer, the redeemed, a misunderstood priesthood, etc.

I think Star Trek is rather plastic.

I am not judging you. I am judging the delivery. No need to play martyr as I am not beating you. lol.

oh, mk...I wasn't talking about you, I was referring to the part where I quoted HisMan when he said, "He either humbly accepts it and repents or he rejects it and gets angry at the messenger."

Now then, if you get angry at the messenger, then yes, it would also be directed to you. However, you already stated that you weren't angry with me, so I really don't know where that came from. And the "no need to play the martyr" statement...touching.

All that being said, I'm glad that we can finally agree that you'll do it your way, and I'll do it mine. I was already there, though.

Anon,
I didn't interpret scripture, I posted it. You interpreted it on your own. Although I understand that you want me to speak it in my own words, I choose not to, because I think that scripture speaks for itself, with all it's "thees" and "thous", I can still fully understand the meaning.

I also fully understand what you're saying about not taking scripture out of context. I pray before I post, and read most of the entire chapter before posting the particular verse to make sure I'm not at fault with what you stated above. I'm very familiar with historical, literal, prophetic and parables in the bible. I have studied extensively. Have you ever read Halley's Bible Concordance? It's an invaluable tool in helping with that problem, and has helped me a great deal in understading the historical point of view on each chapter of the bible. It's absolutely wonderful!

If you ever feel that I am posting scripture that is not pertinent, or out of context to a certain situation, please do let me know. I would greatly appreciate your assistance in that respect. It's how we learn. We are all a "work in progress".

God bless you both.

Thank you, HisMan.

I live my entire life craving to hear those words.

@HisMan: I got into Star Wars first, as a wee lass of 9 years. I adore the original series, I watch it for what it is: a movie. A story. Nothing more. I liked the action. I'm not one for getting into

I like Star Trek too, but I really like the Deep Space Nine series as that one has some really interesting, organic aspects to it compared to Next Generation and the Original Series. I think you may like the Deep Space Nine series too as it has a *lot* of spirituality and the conflicts of it.

Aaaaaanywho. :)

I don't think Darth Vader was ever totally evil or bad. I think he was self-destructive and I think it hurt him to hurt others, and that's why he did it, out of guilt, shame and anger over what happened to Padme.

Leah:

Look at this way.

Let's say there's a being in the Universe named Jim.

Now a lot of people say they love Jim, however, the Jim they say they love is not who Jim is.

Now, Jim calls some people or e-mails them and he says, "Hey, I can't be there right now but I'm going to send my son Jim. Jim Jr. is just like me so listen to him and you can believe eerything he says because you see, he's my son. Now, there will be other Jims that claim to be Jim Jr. but they are not the real thing because you see, Jim Jr. is going to give you what you always dreamed of and prove that he is Jim Jr. by giving his life for you."

Now Leah. The God I love is not my idea as you stated. The God I love is the God that rvealed Himself to me in the Bible. I have chosen to believe and accept the message as have millions upon million of others who have gone before me and have testified to His faithfulness and goodness.

The g-o-d you believe in and by your own admission, is your own idea, does not exist. Let me ask you, has your idea of g-o-d revealed himself, or herself, or itself to you yet? You see, God is not an idea, or a theory, or a philosophy, or even a religion. God is a real person who really came to earth, really did some supernatural things, died on a cross and was resurrected and then appeared to over 500 people. I have never heard of an idea of a
g-o-d doing anything like that, have you?

Sorry Ari-chan:

I love all kinds of science fiction movies.

I recently saw "Jumper" which I thought was pretty cool.

Did you know that in the Book of Acts, 2nd Chapter that after Peter preached to the Ethiopian Eunuch that he literally jumped to a different place?

And Paul was physically transported to Heaven.

And in Matthew 17 it talks about Jesus, Moses and Elijah appearing to a few of the apostles.

And people think the Bible is some ancient, out of date Book. Yes, the Bible is the most advanced book in the Universe. We would do well to read and study and understand it.

I love the overall theme of Star Wars which is....redemption.

Ha! HisMan, me too, love themes of redemption.

While I hear what you are saying, I would venture to say that Christians, true Christians, are the least afraid to die people you'll ever meet.

MK, some are, some aren't. I'm not saying "religion is bad," here, just that different people have different needs. Can one's belief make one feel unafraid? I think so, yes, for some people. That said, it's not like everybody else is "afraid to die."
......

I know you desperately want to put us in a cute little cartoon and say "aren't they adorable with their little God and their sweet naive beliefs" but you are so, so wrong.

No, really, I don't. And it's not just Christians, this is bigger than that - it's all matters of "faith" in the realm.
......

There is nothing sweet or naive about being a Christian. It's tough. It's often grueling. It requires strength when strength is needed, humility when humility is needed, courage, love, patience, persistance...do you think there aren't moments when it would be easier to say "Hey, I think I'll just think like Doug for awhile and chuck it all! Do whatever I want for a change!"

The thing is that you ARE doing what you want. It's all the same. It's not any tougher nor any less, necessarily, whether one is religous or not.
......

Get real! Answering to nobody but yourself? Now that is easy. Try being a Christian for a week Doug. One week, and so all the things that are expected of you. Change your entire way of life, lose life long friends, have people insinuate that you are a fruitcake (a sweet fruitcake, but a fruitcake nonetheless), bite back the words that spring to your lips, listen to God tell you all the ways you failed today...you couldn't handle it.

Your faith IS in yourself, MK. Again, all the same.
......

And because you view us as complete morons, you'd never understand the joy that comes from that ridiculous belief system.

Now doggoneit, I do not view you that way. I've said repeatedly that lots of people get lots of good from religion. I'm impressed with the amount of thought that has gone into various religions and the amount of thought expressed as you and Bethany have done right here. Don't even worry about being a little grouchy.

Doug:

I don;t think you realize how close minded you are.

MK,

does that mean that when you die you will literally have the ability to know the existence of God and Jesus and THEN be able to reject it or accept it?

Leah,

How can you believe what's in Halley's Bible Concordance? I thought you only believed in the Bible?

HisMan,

I'm sure you realize that there are places in the bible that specifically refer to tradition and the word. How do you reconcile this with your views, since you don't believe in tradition?

I don't think you realize how close minded you are.

HisMan, you could say the same for members of other religions, religions different than your own, or one could say it of you, because of what you believe.

There are things that apply to all of us, but when we get to unprovable assumptions, then one person or one group saying something does not make it so.

PIP,

If you don't mind me replying, I'm pretty sure MK was referring to the time just before death, not after.

Janet, what I mean is, does that mean that God reveals himself through Jesus so you can choose to accept it? Or is this just semantics for "well you never really understood God, or had the wrong perception of Him, but if only you tried in that last hour of death, you could have gotten into heaven"?

Doug:

The evidence of the reality of Christ demands a verdict.

To not be willing to even consisder it is close-minded.

PIP,

I hesitate to give an answer here, because it will be from a Catholic standpoint...but, I'll try.

We believe, in the Catholic Church, that
when an angel is created, he decides at that moment which "team" he will be on. Can't change his mind, can't go back. God or Satan. That's his moment of truth, if you will.

For humans, we get a whole lifetime to make up our minds. (Of course, you don't know when that lifetime will end, so hedging your bet isn't exactly wise).

We have until the moment of death. If we show one iota of wanting to be with God for eternity, then His Mercy, which is bottomless, will flow, and in we'll get.

Of course, we believe in purgatory (a final bath, if you will), but nonetheless, we'll make it to heaven.

I heard a priest once tell the story of a young woman that was dying and he kept asking her to just kiss the crucifix that he held. Just kiss it, and it would be enough. She spat at it, and then died.

But someone that commits suicide say, could, at the very split second before the gun goes off, or the pills take effect, or they hit the water, cry out, God have Mercy, or God Help Me, and that would be enough.

But after death? No, we become like the angels and all bets are off. God continues to love us, because He is all love and can do nothing else, but we have made our final choice and He honors it.

As I said somewhere else earlier, a soul that chooses hell, may regret where He is, but doesn't regret the actions that brought him there, or regret the choices he made. Having it to do all over, they would make the same choice.

Again, we have been given free will. If we choose, like Doug, to refuse God, and choose to spend eternity without Him, then God must, by His own rules, honor Dougs choice. Otherwise, He would be interfering with Doug's free will.

Nobody is making Doug spend an eternity in Hell. Doug prefers it that way. And God will allow Doug to have his "desire". To put Doug in heaven, would be to make the whole free will thing a sham. As Doug says, it's all about desire. Doug desires a life and an eternity without God. And so he shall be granted his wish.

This is why purgatory makes so much sense. If you were to accept Jesus, but not embrace Him, just sort of believe in Him, but not wholeheartedly follow Him, you could still get into heaven. But there would be a lot of tweaking that needed to be done. (more time in purgatory) If however you went to the other extreme, and became a Mother Teresa, giving your entire mind, body, soul and heart to Him, you'd probably spend very little time in purgatory. You'd already have worked out a lot of the "kinks" in your faith life.

Saint Faustina was given a choice by Jesus. He told her that she could either do her purgatory time on earth, or after death. She asked for both. Wanted to offer up the "extra" suffering for souls who didn't believe. So she spent her last days very sick and in great pain. We can only assume she did some more suffering after she died.

This is another difference between Catholics and Protestants. We believe that our suffering can be offered up with Jesus' on the cross, and it has the power to bring souls to Him.

So it is entirely possible that Padre Pio, or Saint Faustinas' earthly suffering will help you, PIP, to convert and get into heaven...which I think is really cool.

"The evidence of the reality of Christ demands a verdict.

To not be willing to even consisder it is close-minded."

The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel is a wonderful introduction to this subject.

HisMan: The evidence of the reality of Christ demands a verdict.

To not be willing to even consisder it is close-minded.

I do consider it.

Again, we have been given free will. If we choose, like Doug, to refuse God, and choose to spend eternity without Him, then God must, by His own rules, honor Dougs choice. Otherwise, He would be interfering with Doug's free will.

MK, the problem with that is that free will means there is not an all-knowing god, nor is there an all-knowing anything. Free will means we are not predestined, while if our future is known, to "anybody," then we're predestined.

Some of us will choose to embrace the theoretical construct of God just as you do, and some will do it differently, and some will not do it at all.

@Doug,

but that is just it ... we ain't talking of intellectual possibilities/imaginings, we are talking about the realities of love ... all unseen. How do you react to a child's twisted ankle? Do you think his pain imaginary ... easy cop-out for you but that does zip to assist the child. A simple gesture of sharing his misery (like his mother kissing the bruise) can become (inexplicably) healing.

Now which of these is real?

John

"MK, the problem with that is that free will means there is not an all-knowing god, nor is there an all-knowing anything. Free will means we are not predestined, while if our future is known, to "anybody," then we're predestined."

Well, I think there's a couple ways to illustrate man's free will vs. God's sovereignty. The first is to consider the fact that (for example) every I yawn and smack my lips, Gianna laughs. Every single time. So I can hold her in my arms say "watch this, Gianna will smile in 5 seconds" and that will happen. I "knew the future" but I didn't force her to smile. If you want to say she was "predestined" because I knew she was going to smile, well, fine. But she still had free will. While it isn't a perfect comparison, it is similar to how we understand God's sovereignty vs. our free will.

The other comparison is the following. When I watch Wrestlemania VII, when Macho Man vs. Ultimate Warrior begins, I can tell you that Macho Man will give the Ultimate Warrior 5 elbows in a row from the top rope. Guarantee it. Did that take away Macho Man's free will? No, he had free will when he did the elbows. He could have done only one or (God forbid) 10 elbows. Well, what's the objection to this comparison? I already knew what Macho was going to do. I had seen this match (many, many times!). But this touches precisely on a truth about God- namely, that God is outside of time. Because God is pure soul which has an unchanging nature, God is in an eternal "now." So in a sense, the entire history of the earth has already happened in God's eyes, and the situation is much like the video that I watch where, indeed, Macho has free will, yet I already knew what happened.

So I'm not expecting you to believe all of this; just that it is possible to reconcile the two. There is a HUGE treatise on this called "Grace, Predestination, and Free Will" by William Most if you wish to beat this subject to death. God love you.

Doug,

You are constraining yourself by linear time.

There is no linear time for God.

It is all happening at once. He can see the present, past, future at any time He chooses.

So He can see you struggling with a decision, and He can know the outcome of that decision even before you make it because YOU are stuck in linear time.

We don't believe in predestination. We don't believe that God "causes" us to do anything. Be we believe He can "see" everything.

Think science fiction...back to the future. Michael J Fox knew what his folks were going to do before they had even met because he was able to project himself into the future. Granted that he manipulated his folks, while God doesn't, but the theory remains the same.

No time constraints on God. Time constraints on humans. We simply can't see the way He sees.

Janet,
I think you were referring the Halley's Bible Concordance question to me, not Leah.

Check it out sometime and you'll see what I'm talking about. It gives historical and archaeological facts book by book throughout the bible. It doesn't interpret the bible, it just shows you what was going on during that time historically book by book. Very interesting, if your into archaeological and historical facts!

For instance, during a period of time in which people were woshipping the god Baal, it shows you historical digs that were done during that time period. Human sacrifice was a big ritual then, and people during that time were told to sacrifice their babies, then put the remains in a vase, then build the structure of their homes around the vase and that would give them blessings by their god. In the book, you see the vases that were dug up and the tiny bones within them.

By reading this book, it really opens up the bible, to me at least, to fully understand why God poured out his wrath on people who did not obey Him.

There's much, much more to the book, and it goes chapter by chapter throughout the bible. It's a great read. Seriously, if you have the time, check it out!

I"ve added it to my amazon.com wishlist, JLM.

Bobby & Janet,
Ooooh. I forgot to mention that if you get it, or borrow it from the library, there are many verisons of it. When new archaeological discoveries are unearthed, Halley's updates the book to include the new discoveries. It's been updated ALOT, so if you do get it, make sure you get the newest version for the lastest facts!

If my memory is correct, Jill is or was reading it also.

but that is just it ... we ain't talking of intellectual possibilities/imaginings, we are talking about the realities of love ... all unseen. How do you react to a child's twisted ankle? Do you think his pain imaginary ... easy cop-out for you but that does zip to assist the child. A simple gesture of sharing his misery (like his mother kissing the bruise) can become (inexplicably) healing.

Now which of these is real?

John, those are all real. I don't say anything there is imaginary.

You are constraining yourself by linear time. There is no linear time for God. It is all happening at once. He can see the present, past, future at any time He chooses.

MK, it wouldn't change anything. There is that which we define as our future. If that is known to an entity, "linear time" for that entity or not, then we are predestined.
......

We don't believe in predestination. We don't believe that God "causes" us to do anything. Be we believe He can "see" everything.

"Cause" isn't required. Just knowing it is enough - it'd mean our futures are fixed.
......

Think science fiction...back to the future. Michael J Fox knew what his folks were going to do before they had even met because he was able to project himself into the future. Granted that he manipulated his folks, while God doesn't, but the theory remains the same.

So from Mikey's perspective he knew the future, in that limited way, i.e. while the others didn't know it, their future was known to another.
......

No time constraints on God. Time constraints on humans. We simply can't see the way He sees.

Nothing there that would contradict what I've said. We don't need to know, it's enough that any other entity knows.

I agree with you Doug, that we are predestinated.

Here is a little of insight on how John Calvin explained how this does not remove our human responsibility:
From http://geneva.rutgers.edu/src/christianity/predest.html

" Of the things I've seen from the 16th Century, Calvin dealt with this the most clearly. He maintained that predestination does not remove human responsibility. In effect, he suggested that there are two different accounts for the same event, one in human terms and one in God's terms. God has a plan for our individual lives and history as a whole. Everything that happens fits into that plan. However he normally works through secondary causes. When someone does something, it is because they make a decision to do so. God knew what that decision would be. Indeed because the person's character, motivations, and situation is under God's control, there's a sense in which we can say that God determined the action. But his plan is carried out by the working out of human decisions and other historical causes.

Calvin looks at the example of the Sabeans' violence against Job's household near the beginning of Job. There are three levels of responsibility here. The Sabeans are responsible for the violence, motivated by whatever motivates vandals, presumably a desire for loot. But they are also acting as Satan's agents to test Job. Thus in another sense Satan is responsible. His goal is to show up Job. He somehow moved the Sabeans to attack Job's family. However even Satan is acting accordance with God's plan. God's intention is to vindicate Job's character and his own justice. The event is completely intelligible on any of these three levels: human, Satan's plan, and God's plan. In fact all three accounts are true.

Calvin also points out that God carries out his plan differently when dealing with people who have faith in him and those who do not. Everyone ends up acting in accordance with his plans. But with those who have faith, there is a conscious collaboration. God works with them through the Holy Spirit, and moves them directly in the way he intends. The ungodly do not intentionally cooperate with God. They still do his will, but they do it because he has set up the situation so that they end up doing what he wants. "

Hi JLM,

yep, the anon to which you refer is me John L. McDonell ... sorry forgot to sign.

"Anon,
I didn't interpret scripture, I posted it. You interpreted it on your own. Although I understand that you want me to speak it in my own words, I choose not to, because I think that scripture speaks for itself, with all it's "thees" and "thous", I can still fully understand the meaning."

I have not interpreted the words of scripture but because I have a rare charism does not make my words somehow less. I have talked to all kinds of young people and they wish to know not just what God says but how this effects my personal life. I can be remote and call you 'sister' like they do in unions OR I can let you inside .... become one ... let the 'wall of separation down' ... and embrace you in my littleness .... to become my 'sister' ... as real (even more real) as my earthly sisters(2).

A few years back, one of these family folks wrote to me. Lynn was struggling with being a new mom. So I wrote that I'd always be there for her ... in-her-corner. If you know anything about my disease and how it wastes muscles so I cannot even walk nor crawl, such bravado as I wrote to her seems ludicrous. But I think her pain (now both of ours) is lessened just by being open to listen.

99% of Christians could/cannot read words ... like Bibles, but all 'read' people. So it is very important for me to enter-the-fray and not remain an 'observer' .... too many spectators. I am ... in God I am ... and the more real I am = how close Abba/Jesus/Spirit are in me .... That's why Jesus prays that we might be one (Prayer at the Last Supper/John).

The 'thee's' and 'thou's' are important because they are words not used in any family, so distance people rather than unite them. To me the effect works exactly against what God is attempting to accomplish. Thee's and thou's ... are these Biblical words or are they English sentiments that gloss over this oneness that Abba is attempting to achieve? Am I wrong?

hope this helps ....

John (also JLM)

Hey Bethany. So are you reformed? If so, how reformed (if that question makes any sense)? God love you.

Bobby, yes, I believe that is what you could call me. I am not really sure about levels of reformed..maybe you can help me understand?

It's really about whether something agrees with the Bible or not, more than anything else, for me. :-)

Hey Bethany, pretty good. Calvin was hardcore....

Doug,

Then we do not have the same understanding of predestination.

You are still placing God in time constraints.

You are saying He is looking into the future and I am saying to Him, there is no future. There is only "now" and now encompasses all. He doesn't see what "will" happen, He sees what "is" happening.

# S: (n) predestination (previous determination as if by destiny or fate)
*
# S: (n) predestination, foreordination, preordination, predetermination ((theology) being determined in advance; especially the doctrine (usually associated with Calvin) that God has foreordained every event throughout eternity (including the final salvation of mankind))

Presdestination means determining what will happen. Not seeing it happen. Saying it WILL be so ahead of time. Not watching it happen.

It is completely different than what I am talking about.

http://geneva.rutgers.edu/src/christianity/predest.html

John,

My response was to what you said here:

I assume you know scripture inside out ... but that does not mean you grasp what it is saying. Just read the stories about Jesus being tempted by Satan with the words of scripture.

I felt like you were telling me that I may know the words, but I don't know what they mean. I then told you that I just posted them, and didn't interpret them. If there was an interpretation, that had to have come from you reading the scripture that I posted.

John, I try very hard to understand what you are trying to convey in your posts, but we most certainly are not on the same intellectual level. So, if I misunderstood, I am sorry for that. It's just how I read your words.

Rest assured, I do pray before reading any scripture at all. I pray for understanding and wisdom. I pray that God has me understand it EXACTLY how He wants me to. The way that He intended them to be. I think we'll have to disagree on the "thee's" and "thou's" though. I find those words to be beautiful and timeless.

John, I think you're a remarkable individual. What you did for Lynn and others is beautiful and so altruistic. I am sure God is pleased.

God bless you, John.

One more thing to all: My bad: It's not Halley's Bible Concordance, It's Halley's Bible Handbook. I get all of my little helpers mixed up sometimes! Sorry for any confusion.

:)

"aIt's not Halley's Bible Concordance, It's Halley's Bible Handbook. I get all of my little helpers mixed up sometimes! Sorry for any confusion."

Ah, yes indeed. It's only 52 cents on amazon used!

Doug,

I think that the free will thing is, like, picture a home video of your family. At the time it was filmed, your actions were chosen freely, but in the years since, you've seen it so many times that you know what the kid in the video is going to choose. That you know what he'll choose doesn't mean he's not choosing, it just means you've seen it already. But to the kid trapped in the film, everything is new.

Sometimes I feel that way watching or reading historical documentaries. I'm like, "No, don't do that!" or "Gee, this is all awfully drawn out considering we all KNOW what's going to happen anyway." But I try to imagine actually being there -- being George Washington or Alexander the Great or Ceasar or whatever -- and seeing two seemingly endless paths on either side of a fork in the road, and legitimately not knowing what would happen next. I guess I have an awful imagination, because sometimes try as I might I can't imagine making a historical decision WITHOUT having my thoughts affected the bias I have inherited by way of being born after that decision's consequences were well known. But anyway, the point is, if I were somehow able to go back and watch history unfolding, the fact that I knew what each person would decide to do with each situation wouldn't mean that they weren't deciding to do it of their own volition. It would just mean that I had information they didn't.

Going back to the "asking your friends to take off their dirty shoes before entering your house" analogy with regards to sin not being allowed to enter heaven, for a moment, because I was thinking about it as I fell asleep last night. (And not just because my partner tracked mud all through our apartment!) I don't think it would mean that I loved my friends any less if I insisted that they remove their shoes -- as it is, I prefer that they do but hope to just lead by example rather than insisting -- but I do think that if I built a moat of mud around my house, a moat that took a lifetime to cross and that you had to get extremely dirty to get through, and THEN I insisted that everyone help me keep my house pristine, I might be a bit of a jerk. I might still have the right to want my friends to remove their shoes, but I don't think they'd be out of line to grumble about my choice of landscaping.

Bobby,
You're too funny!

I'm going to stop at the bookstore today & pick up two copies. My father lent it to me back in September. When I was out at the Aurora mill, one of the prayer warriors really liked it, so I lent it to him. I didn't get it back, yet, and I really miss it! I read up to Song of Solomon, (of course read Revelation first, since it's such a passion for me) and am itching to read the rest!

If you get it, let me know what you think!

...and now I've gone and spelled Caesar incorrectly. Woe.

Well, I think there's a couple ways to illustrate man's free will vs. God's sovereignty. The first is to consider the fact that (for example) every I yawn and smack my lips, Gianna laughs. Every single time. So I can hold her in my arms say "watch this, Gianna will smile in 5 seconds" and that will happen. I "knew the future" but I didn't force her to smile. If you want to say she was "predestined" because I knew she was going to smile, well, fine. But she still had free will. While it isn't a perfect comparison, it is similar to how we understand God's sovereignty vs. our free will.

Bobby, you make me smile too. "Forcing" is not necessary. Just knowing is enough. Having the certainty about Gianna that you do is not being "all-knowing," however. I also think that eventually she would tire, become saturated and not respond the same, go to sleep, etc., i.e. you've noted a tendency but it's not really a sure thing going out into the future. More sure would be dropping a rock onto the ground, knowing that gravity will take effect. It's still observations from the past projected into the future, as differentiated from truly being "all-knowing."
......

The other comparison is the following. When I watch Wrestlemania VII, when Macho Man vs. Ultimate Warrior begins, I can tell you that Macho Man will give the Ultimate Warrior 5 elbows in a row from the top rope. Guarantee it. Did that take away Macho Man's free will? No, he had free will when he did the elbows. He could have done only one or (God forbid) 10 elbows. Well, what's the objection to this comparison? I already knew what Macho was going to do. I had seen this match (many, many times!). But this touches precisely on a truth about God- namely, that God is outside of time. Because God is pure soul which has an unchanging nature, God is in an eternal "now." So in a sense, the entire history of the earth has already happened in God's eyes, and the situation is much like the video that I watch where, indeed, Macho has free will, yet I already knew what happened.

I disagree. The match has already occurred. There's no free will on the part of the contestants that can change what happened. They are "outside" of that time, already, so to speak, and if God is outside of time, then fine, I say - if God is seeing our future as you see the already-taken-place wrasslin,' then we cannot change what we think of as our future any more than Macho Man can change Wrestlemania VII.

Alternatively, do you think God works through Hulk Hogan and Sgt. Slaughter?
......

So I'm not expecting you to believe all of this; just that it is possible to reconcile the two. There is a HUGE treatise on this called "Grace, Predestination, and Free Will" by William Most if you wish to beat this subject to death. God love you.

Too busy to really get the Big Beater out, at least today - am loading for a couple jobs in the hind-end of the USA, New Jersey. Thank you, though, I'll look into it.

Doug

I think that the free will thing is, like, picture a home video of your family. At the time it was filmed, your actions were chosen freely, but in the years since, you've seen it so many times that you know what the kid in the video is going to choose. That you know what he'll choose doesn't mean he's not choosing, it just means you've seen it already. But to the kid trapped in the film, everything is new.

GOOD analogy, Alexandra!

Going back to the "asking your friends to take off their dirty shoes before entering your house" analogy with regards to sin not being allowed to enter heaven, for a moment, because I was thinking about it as I fell asleep last night. (And not just because my partner tracked mud all through our apartment!) I don't think it would mean that I loved my friends any less if I insisted that they remove their shoes -- as it is, I prefer that they do but hope to just lead by example rather than insisting -- but I do think that if I built a moat of mud around my house, a moat that took a lifetime to cross and that you had to get extremely dirty to get through, and THEN I insisted that everyone help me keep my house pristine, I might be a bit of a jerk. I might still have the right to want my friends to remove their shoes, but I don't think they'd be out of line to grumble about my choice of landscaping.

Alexandra,
I really love reading your posts! You explain yourself very well, and your words flow so beautifully!

That is so funny that the mud analogy coincided with your bf's mud-tracking! ha!

I see where you're coming from. But God doesn't love someone any less because they "don't take their shoes off". He has infinite love, and wants so badly for people to "choose" to take their shoes off. He can't force them. It's a choice they have to make. It's either what He wants, or what they want. That's the choice. Choose God's way, or choose your own way. It's His house - His way. (or the highway, lol! I'm thinking of that AC/DC song now...highway to h*ll.) It's going to be another one of those days, I can just feel it now!

As for the moat, I love that part! But the beautiful thing, is that it's doesn't have to take a lifetime to get through the muddy moat. Once a person accepts what Christ has done for them, their "shoes" are cleaned, and the muddy moat is gone. It's a walk through clean pastures at that point! Not to say there won't be bumps along the way, but at least Jesus will be carrying you through it. He's not only a Savior, but a best friend.

Please keep posting, Alexandra. I really, really enjoy what you write. You have quite the gift with thought and the ability to put into into such powerful words! Thank you for that!

Going back to the "asking your friends to take off their dirty shoes before entering your house" analogy with regards to sin not being allowed to enter heaven, for a moment, because I was thinking about it as I fell asleep last night. (And not just because my partner tracked mud all through our apartment!) I don't think it would mean that I loved my friends any less if I insisted that they remove their shoes -- as it is, I prefer that they do but hope to just lead by example rather than insisting -- but I do think that if I built a moat of mud around my house, a moat that took a lifetime to cross and that you had to get extremely dirty to get through, and THEN I insisted that everyone help me keep my house pristine, I might be a bit of a jerk. I might still have the right to want my friends to remove their shoes, but I don't think they'd be out of line to grumble about my choice of landscaping.

Alexandra,
I really love reading your posts! You explain yourself very well, and your words flow so beautifully!

That is so funny that the mud analogy coincided with your bf's mud-tracking! ha!

I see where you're coming from. But God doesn't love someone any less because they "don't take their shoes off". He has infinite love, and wants so badly for people to "choose" to take their shoes off. He can't force them. It's a choice they have to make. It's either what He wants, or what they want. That's the choice. Choose God's way, or choose your own way. It's His house - His way. (or the highway, lol! I'm thinking of that AC/DC song now...highway to h*ll.) It's going to be another one of those days, I can just feel it now!

As for the moat, I love that part! But the beautiful thing, is that it's doesn't have to take a lifetime to get through the muddy moat. Once a person accepts what Christ has done for them, their "shoes" are cleaned, and the muddy moat is gone. It's a walk through clean pastures at that point! Not to say there won't be bumps along the way, but at least Jesus will be carrying you through it. He's not only a Savior, but a best friend.

Please keep posting, Alexandra. I really, really enjoy what you write. You have quite the gift with thought and the ability to put into into such powerful words! Thank you for that!

Then we do not have the same understanding of predestination. You are still placing God in time constraints. You are saying He is looking into the future and I am saying to Him, there is no future. There is only "now" and now encompasses all. He doesn't see what "will" happen, He sees what "is" happening.

MK, I am saying there is that which we call the future. If that is known (or seen) by an entity in what we call the present, then we are predestined. "Time constraints," etc., on the part of the entity don't change anything. Regardless of the entity's viewpoint, as long as they know what occurs in that which we call the future, then we do not have free will. We're gonna do what we're gonna do, whether it is seen as "will happen" or "is happening" on the all-knowing entity's part.
......

(n) predestination (previous determination as if by destiny or fate)

(n) predestination, foreordination, preordination, predetermination ((theology) being determined in advance; especially the doctrine (usually associated with Calvin) that God has foreordained every event throughout eternity (including the final salvation of mankind))

Presdestination means determining what will happen. Not seeing it happen. Saying it WILL be so ahead of time. Not watching it happen. It is completely different than what I am talking about.

I disagree. An all-powerful god could "determine" things, but it wouldn't have to be that way, i.e., destiny or fate would be enough - all that's required is for God or any consciousness to know it, in advance from our perspective. If we go with the "determining" deal by God, then another entity being aware of our future would still do the same thing - even aside from God. Per Calvin, if from our perspective God has "scripted" the future, then another entity being aware of it would be proof of no free will; just knowing is enough.

Yo yo yo.

"Bobby, you make me smile too. "Forcing" is not necessary. Just knowing is enough. Having the certainty about Gianna that you do is not being "all-knowing," however. I also think that eventually she would tire, become saturated and not respond the same, go to sleep, etc., i.e. you've noted a tendency but it's not really a sure thing going out into the future. More sure would be dropping a rock onto the ground, knowing that gravity will take effect. It's still observations from the past projected into the future, as differentiated from truly being "all-knowing.""

I agree but I think you've taken the analogy too far. All I want to do is illustrate how I can (at least for now) know that something is going to happen and show that it is compatible with the action being freely chosen.

" if God is outside of time, then fine, I say - if God is seeing our future as you see the already-taken-place wrasslin,' then we cannot change what we think of as our future any more than Macho Man can change Wrestlemania VII."

But see, Macho had free will at the time. Although his action was known by God, his action was his choice.

See, I think we agree with each other's premises, but we are drawing different conclusions. I am saying that God can know what we are going to do in the future and we have free choice as to what we will do in the future. I think you understand those premises. But I'm happy to leave it at that. I think you are thinking that as those premises stand, they are contradictory. Is that correct? So that's why you are saying that we can not change our future, to fix the contradiction you see, correct? Now if that is the case, the problem I have is that I don't see any contradiction between a Being who knows the future and our actions being freely determined. So (again, is I am correct in my analysis) I think you're going to have to show me how from those two premises you can deduce both "A and not A." Do you know what I mean?

"Alternatively, do you think God works through Hulk Hogan and Sgt. Slaughter?"

LOL. Heck, God works through the Birdman KoKo B Ware.

"Too busy to really get the Big Beater out, at least today - am loading for a couple jobs in the hind-end of the USA, New Jersey. Thank you, though, I'll look into it."

Good, don't read it. Even I'm too scared to read it. It's extremely technical.

sorry for the double-post. If a mod wants to delete one, I'd appreciate it! The first one I thought didn't go through. It said the server was busy or broken. I re-loaded the website, and the post wasn't there.

Sorry!

Going back to the "asking your friends to take off their dirty shoes before entering your house" analogy with regards to sin not being allowed to enter heaven, for a moment, because I was thinking about it as I fell asleep last night. (And not just because my partner tracked mud all through our apartment!) I don't think it would mean that I loved my friends any less if I insisted that they remove their shoes -- as it is, I prefer that they do but hope to just lead by example rather than insisting -- but I do think that if I built a moat of mud around my house, a moat that took a lifetime to cross and that you had to get extremely dirty to get through, and THEN I insisted that everyone help me keep my house pristine, I might be a bit of a jerk. I might still have the right to want my friends to remove their shoes, but I don't think they'd be out of line to grumble about my choice of landscaping.

I think this is a good analogy but there are some minor flaws - I could be wrong but bear with me.

Suppose that the moat had a bridge over it (representing salvation) , which you could easily cross without having to go through all of the mud and dirt.

When you get to the house, there is no more mud on your shoes, if you cross the bridge.

(You would still have to remove the shoes though, because in my view, the shoes would be analogous to our old body- the mud is analogous to the sin).

If someone decided to jump in the moat and get their shoes all dirty before going, instead of using the bridge, could they really fault you for wanting them to take off their shoes?

Okay, let me know if this didn't make sense and I'll try to word it better.

JLM 9:25 I agree. She does have a gift with words.

Bethany,

"Bobby, yes, I believe that is what you could call me. I am not really sure about levels of reformed..maybe you can help me understand?"

Well, does the acronym "TULIP" mean anything to you?

Haha, Bethany and JLM, thanks.

What if the bridge (ie salvation etc) was invisible though? Like, did you ever see that Indiana Jones movie where he has to throw the dirt out over the edge of the cliff to find the entrance to the bride, and then he just has to trust that it's there? So my friends would have to try to find and then trust an invisible bridge just to get to my house, which I had intentionally surrounded by a gigantic mud-filled moat, or else remove all of their mud-covered clothing, in order to be clean enough to come in for tea once they'd finally gotten to my front door. I don't think I'd fault my friends for deciding not to hang out with me anymore.

Haha, Bethany and JLM, thanks.

What if the bridge (ie salvation etc) was invisible though? Like, did you ever see that Indiana Jones movie where he has to throw the dirt out over the edge of the cliff to find the entrance to the bride, and then he just has to trust that it's there? So my friends would have to try to find and then trust an invisible bridge just to get to my house, which I had intentionally surrounded by a gigantic mud-filled moat, or else remove all of their mud-covered clothing, in order to be clean enough to come in for tea once they'd finally gotten to my front door. I don't think I'd fault my friends for deciding not to hang out with me anymore.

HisMan:

This is being over-complicated. The bottom line is I neither love nor hate this being that you call God. Hate is something that requires feeling--a very strong feeling. I hate no one.

Alexandra,
Ah, but you left a book of instructions for your friends on how to get across the moat, and who would provide the bridge for them. Once they accepted the provider of the bridge, their veil of doubt was removed from them, so they trusted without a doubt.

Alexandra,
And if they didn't trust YOU, were they really your friends to begin with? You may have loved them dearly, but if they didn't trust you, did they ever love you?

Leah,
I don't hate your god either. I can't hate something that isn't real, and I'm sure that's why you don't hate our God. Am I correct?

"Many things that take place in Saudi Arabia are, in fact, not based off of Islam"

Leah, are you telling me you know more about Islam then the people in Saudi-Arabia? I believe the Saudi's....

"Have you been to Saudi Arabia, Jasper? Have you ever been outside of the United States?"

China
Korea
Taiwan
Japan
England
Scotland
Switzerland
Germany
Holland
Canada

And if they didn't trust YOU, were they really your friends to begin with? You may have loved them dearly, but if they didn't trust you, did they ever love you?

I guess that's what I always wondered. If someone gave me a book and was like, "This is how you find the bridge," and I just COULDN'T believe it -- I tried and tried and still always kind of thought, "This is a little absurd" -- then maybe I was not meant to have a relationship with that person.

Alexandria, when you feel that way (that it is absurd), that is your "natural man" talking... It is in everyone to feel this way, of themselves. Without God to help you interpret the scriptures, the words can certainly seem foolish. God still wants a relationship with you. You are not out of the ordinary for having these thoughts.

"...the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14-15"

Oops, I just noticed... When I wrote "that it is absurd", it looked like it reads "that is absurd". I hope you didn't read it that way. lol

Alexandra,
I believe if you seek you will find.

Luke 11:9
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

But, keep in mind, that you need to seek & ask!

Until then:

John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

2 Corinthians 3:14-16
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Do you see? One needs to seek the Lord first, with all their heart. If one really wants to seek Him, they will find Him. Then, the vail can be removed.

Does that make sense?

JLM, thank you....

Bethany,
You know, while I was "working on it", then posted it, I read yours, and they totally coincide! How awesome is that!

Thank YOU!

JLM, do you think that sometime you might drop me an email? My email address is in the sidebar. :)

"Ah, but you left a book of instructions for your friends on how to get across the moat, and who would provide the bridge for them."

Yet, several other instructions were left for them too, that could be equally valid, but you expect them to know which one is true.

Doug,

The very word predestined implies a time constraint.
How can we be predestined if there is no "pre"...nor is there a post...

Again, you keep looking at this from your point of view instead of Gods. To us, it may appear predestined. To Him, it just "is".

First off, Catholics don't adhere to Calvin. We reject that theory.

Secondly, how does one knowing what will happen have any effect on the person making a choice.

Again, you are confusing knowledge with cause. Free will means I decide. Not God, me. He may know my choice, but He doesn't cause it.

I know that the sun will come up tomorrow. But I am not causing the sun to come up. God can change His mind and decide that starting tomorrow the sun will no longer rise. My knowing it, doesn't change God's causing it.

I agree but I think you've taken the analogy too far. All I want to do is illustrate how I can (at least for now) know that something is going to happen and show that it is compatible with the action being freely chosen.

Bobby, the analogy needs to go far enough to be akin to an "all-knowing" being, so that's a fur piece, as they say. I would agree that it is possible to "know" what somebody will pick, or how they will react, same as for gravity acting on the rock. This wouldn't even require predestination, however, just probabilities.

So, postulating free will, then there's nothing there that says some things cannot be "known," as with Gianna's reaction, etc. It's reasonable to expect that a thing observed enough times in a row will occur again under the same conditions.

Had you never observed Gianna's reaction, then you would not know of it, not like an "all-knowing" being. The "all-knowing" part would do away with probabilities and past observation, since the future would then be fixed.

Bethany quoted something about there being an appointed hour for our death, etc., ( I think), and that sounds like we're going down the road of fixed futures.
......

" if God is outside of time, then fine, I say - if God is seeing our future as you see the already-taken-place wrasslin,' then we cannot change what we think of as our future any more than Macho Man can change Wrestlemania VII."

But see, Macho had free will at the time. Although his action was known by God, his action was his choice./i>

And at the time you would not have known what was to occur (obviously), if he had free will, whereas an all-knowing entity would have.
......

Good, don't read it ("Grace, Predestination, and Free Will" by William Most ). Even I'm too scared to read it. It's extremely technical.

Sounds good to me, Holmes. :: laughing :: "too scared to read it..." I don't think so. You're fairly busy, I reckon, but "scared...."?
......

See, I think we agree with each other's premises, but we are drawing different conclusions. I am saying that God can know what we are going to do in the future and we have free choice as to what we will do in the future. I think you understand those premises. But I'm happy to leave it at that. I think you are thinking that as those premises stand, they are contradictory. Is that correct? So that's why you are saying that we can not change our future, to fix the contradiction you see, correct? Now if that is the case, the problem I have is that I don't see any contradiction between a Being who knows the future and our actions being freely determined. So (again, is I am correct in my analysis) I think you're going to have to show me how from those two premises you can deduce both "A and not A." Do you know what I mean?

I don't agree with your premise that both free will and knowledge of what we see as future choices can coexist. I think they're mutually exclusive.

If our future is known to the Being, then how can we freely determine our actions? There'd have to be a reality known to the Being. We wouldn't have to be aware of it, but how could we alter things between now and the future as we reckon them, when the Being knows in our "now"? It'd mean our future is already fixed in our "now."

And ya done lost me on the "A and not A" deal. Perhaps we are not reckoning time in the same way.

Alexandra,

I'm sure it was unintentional but Bethany and JLM have just perfectly described the concept of purgatory. Gotta walk through the muck. Even if you have the instruction book. You've made it to the door because of the instruction book. The gatekeeper died so that you could have free access to the "bridge"...but those dang muddy shoes! No worries, theres a shoe brush by the entrance. Clean them off and c'mon in!

I'd have to disagree with the idea that everything would be beautiful pastures after believing in the moat though. I think the beautiful pastures are through the doors. I believe you still have to walk through the muck. The world is what it is. More like you'd have your own personal shoe shine machine (confession in my faith) to periodically clean them so that they are not so caked with mud that you can't get it off.

Then of course, there are those that like the mud. Don't want them clean, don't believe there is anything beyond the door, and will turn back the way they came.

As for friends thinking your nuts...well, that is definitely one of the prices you have to pay. A lot of my friends found it too difficult to be around me. I've become a drag, so to speak. No smoking pot, no drinking til I puke, No more chasing musicians...They found that they didn't really care for me, only the "entertainment" that I provided when I was joining them in their activities.

It was hard, but looking back, it was necessary. Better to enter heaven with no right hand, than enter hell with both of them and all that...

Bethany,
I'll do that right now!

:)

The very word predestined implies a time constraint. How can we be predestined if there is no "pre"...nor is there a post...

MK, sure, from our point of view there is a now and a later.
......

Again, you keep looking at this from your point of view instead of Gods. To us, it may appear predestined. To Him, it just "is".

As you said, there is a "pre" and a "post." God's point of view would not matter, as long as the knowledge is there in what we perceive as the present, prior to the "post."

God's "is" would be enough - things would be that way, not some other way. From our point of view it'd be things can't be changed, had we the same knowledge.
......

how does one knowing what will happen have any effect on the person making a choice.

No effect is necessary. The Knowledge alone is enough. If our future is known to any entity, then that "is" you mentioned is the deal, rather than anything else. The "is" could not be altered.
......

Again, you are confusing knowledge with cause. Free will means I decide. Not God, me. He may know my choice, but He doesn't cause it.

"Cause" from the entity isn't necessary. If your choice is already known, then you cannot change it.
......

I know that the sun will come up tomorrow. But I am not causing the sun to come up. God can change His mind and decide that starting tomorrow the sun will no longer rise. My knowing it, doesn't change God's causing it.

Then you really don't know that the sun will come up. If you did, for absolute sure, then it could not be changed.

Hey JLM, does that "M" start out "Mayn...."?

Doug

Dougster,

"If our future is known to the Being, then how can we freely determine our actions? There'd have to be a reality known to the Being. We wouldn't have to be aware of it, but how could we alter things between now and the future as we reckon them, when the Being knows in our "now"? It'd mean our future is already fixed in our "now."

And ya done lost me on the "A and not A" deal. Perhaps we are not reckoning time in the same way. "

Your last line about me losing you you actually answered above it. I just wanted you to explain how you see our future being known and us having free will as a contradiction. But you did above, so it's all good.

Oh and MK,

"I'm sure it was unintentional but Bethany and JLM have just perfectly described the concept of purgatory."

hehe, I noticed that too, MK, but I wasn't gonna say anything...

No effect is necessary. The Knowledge alone is enough. If our future is known to any entity, then that "is" you mentioned is the deal, rather than anything else. The "is" could not be altered.

Well, of course it could, up until the moment that "is" became "was"...I don't see why His knowing means that we didn't choose it.

I can have an orange or an apple. I choose an orange.

God knows that I will choose the orange. He knew I would choose the orange before I was born. Before there were oranges. He didn't cause me to choose the orange. But he saw me choose it. He knows I chose it. But that in no way interfered with my ability to choose it.

Predestination would mean that He laid it all out before hand, then wound me up and set me on my path, leaving me no choice, but to do what He programmed me to do. But He didn't "program" me.

He created me and then said do what you will. Now if you choose to do what I want you to do, I will begin interfering in your life, but if you choose not to do what I want you to do, then you will be at the mercy of my Natural Law.

And He knows what I chose, and He knows what you have chosen, but He had nothing to do with those choices...

I'm sure it was unintentional but Bethany and JLM have just perfectly described the concept of purgatory. Gotta walk through the muck. Even if you have the instruction book. You've made it to the door because of the instruction book. The gatekeeper died so that you could have free access to the "bridge"...but those dang muddy shoes! No worries, theres a shoe brush by the entrance. Clean them off and c'mon in!

TOTALLY unintentional. Actually, it was never a thought!

The muck is the sinful life. (muck=sin)

gatekeeper cleans shoes - totally muckless!

gatekeeper = bridge

no need for shoe brush, gatekeeper already took care of that over 2000 years ago! Come right in!

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

(for more on this, please see my February 24th post at 11:34 am)

I'd have to disagree with the idea that everything would be beautiful pastures after believing in the moat though. I think the beautiful pastures are through the doors. I believe you still have to walk through the muck. The world is what it is. More like you'd have your own personal shoe shine machine (confession in my faith) to periodically clean them so that they are not so caked with mud that you can't get it off.

Nope! The green pastures are the beautiful life you have here on earth, via a life in Christ. Life is beautiful with Him! Very, very dark and gloomy without Him. Of course, until you get to the green pastures, you really don't realize how dark & gloomy life actually was!

I agree with you on the "nuts" part, mk! Some people think I am too. However, I don't care! They thought Jesus was too! How can I expect any more?

Doug,
Huh?

Bobby,

LOL..I know. I really need to learn to keep my big mouth shut. The concept of Purgatory has not been well received.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

But I never said anything about condemnation...

JLM,7:22,

Thank you for the info on Halley's Bible Handbook. I'm going to add it to my reading list!

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

(I know Jesus isn't in purgatory!)

Janet,
Your welcome.
:)

Sorry about the wrong title again!

If you love history you'll love the book!

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

(I know Jesus isn't in purgatory!)

Never said anything about not attaining salvation. Never said we wouldn't spend eternity with Jesus.

Simply said that we go to purgatory first.

I understand that you don't agree with this view, but your scripture passages are not negating the concept.

Thanks you, MK.

Would you say then in our allegory, the other instructions out there wouldn't be all together bad if the ultimate goal was the same?

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Thanks you? haha I meant thank you.

Also I like hearing the Catholic viewpoint, so don't worry...it tends to make more sense to me anyways.

II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

In fact, JML, I would point to a passage like rev 21:27 which says that nothing unclean may enter heaven. Now I believe that you agreed with this earlier above. But part of how we understand "being clean" is having no attachment to sin. Zero. Absolutely no attraction whatsoever. I don't know about you, but although I detest sin and any offense against God, there is still a small part of me that is attracted to it. In fact, it can be very tempting sometimes. And this is what purgatory does. It takes that love of God and purifies it, makes it absolute.

It is a different action than what Christ accomplished on the cross. Christ merited for us the ability to even have eternal life with God as an option. However, Christ merited enough grace for the entire world to go to heaven, but unfortunately we know not everyone will accept the gift of eternal life. Now that takes nothing away from Jesus' work on the cross, right? In a similar manner, the fact that we must be purged from all our attachments to sin after death in no way takes away from what Christ merited on the cross for us. God love you.

"I'd have to disagree with the idea that everything would be beautiful pastures after believing in the moat though. I think the beautiful pastures are through the doors. I believe you still have to walk through the muck. The world is what it is. More like you'd have your own personal shoe shine machine (confession in my faith) to periodically clean them so that they are not so caked with mud that you can't get it off."

Nope! The green pastures are the beautiful life you have here on earth, via a life in Christ. Life is beautiful with Him! Very, very dark and gloomy without Him. Of course, until you get to the green pastures, you really don't realize how dark & gloomy life actually was!

POSTED BY JLM 12:45

What about poor people living in shacks with no running water or electricity, with dirt roads and barely enough to eat? They can say they accept Christ as you do, but they may not find "green pastures" here on earth.

Janet,

If they have Christ in their lives, they arn't concerned with the material world. Of course material things are nice, but when you put complete trust in the Lord, He will provide you what you need.

Matthew 6:28-30

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

PIP,

In extraordinary circumstances (a small child, someone who never heard of Jesus, someone following his own faith out of love for his understanding of God), then our faith teaches, that yes, a person could enter heaven.

But in ordinary circumstances, the answer would have to be, no. I know that seems harsh.

Now if you were seeking, truly seeking, the Truth but died before you had a chance to "find" it, then I would have to say His mercy is infinite and He would judge your desire. Does that make sense.

But, in this day and age, especially in modern cultures, knowing Jesus is so easy, that I would have to say everyone has had the opportunity to accept or reject His teachings.

There really aren't that many choices. Paganism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam...

If you look at each of those you can see that three of them stem from the same beginning, one of them is not about loving God, but about becoming him, two are about many lesser gods (pantheism)...

Only one offers a God that you can have a relationship with. And that relationship is where you'll find the "truth"...

All faiths have elements of truth in them. This is why respect others right to follow them. If God gave them free will, we must honor it also. But only one is true in every aspect.

Follow Hinduism to it's conclusion. Or Buddhism.

You'll see the flaws.

Are all Hindus condemned to Hell? Who knows.
JML would say that she knows, but I don't think anyone can know.

We know we have been told. Therefore we are responsible for that knowledge. If we accept it, then we are held to it. For me, who knows the truth, I must believe in Jesus. If I reject Him at this point I am consciously rejecting Him. But if a Hindu rejects Him, never having known Him? Who can say?

You are familiar with Christianity. You don't have the same excuses. Now you may not have studied it, or looked at it very deeply, but you have access to it. You will be judged much more harshly than, say, a Muslim raised in the faith. But I will be judged much more harshly than you, because more has been revealed to me. God help the Pope! lol.

Does that make sense?

I don't know about you, but although I detest sin and any offense against God, there is still a small part of me that is attracted to it. In fact, it can be very tempting sometimes. And this is what purgatory does. It takes that love of God and purifies it, makes it absolute.

Bobby, Romans talks about this a lot. This is our flesh fighting our spirit. Once our flesh is dead, our spirit lives on, and is completely free of sin. We do not have sin anymore once we leave our body of flesh, if we have been "born again" of the Spirit.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Never said anything about not attaining salvation. Never said we wouldn't spend eternity with Jesus.
Simply said that we go to purgatory first.

Mk, the Bible says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. If the Lord isn't present in Purgatory, then how could we be there after dying?

JLM,

If Jesus has removed our sin and the sin is the muck and you will walk in green pastures and arrive at the door with no mud/sin on your shoes, are you claiming that you no longer sin? That because you believe in Jesus, you have become sinless?

MK,

yes to an extent. But because Jesus is "prevalent" in culture it still does not seem to be fair to me for them to "reject it" in the true sense of the word. If that makes sense. Someone grew up in the Muslim faith or the Buddhist faith with the Christian faith around them, but they have understood their faiths more and are therefore likely to accept these because to them it sounds like the truth. You say you "know" the truth, but these people think the same way. The ultimate goal is to be closer to God, so why wouldn't God show them mercy for trying as hard as they can to get there?

It's like I said for the analogy. It's like me never showing my face but when people come knocking on my door, I say, "well you should have gotten the message from so-and-so. Sorry. Go away to hell forever." Where is justice in this?

Bethany,

We don't believe that the body and spirit are meant to be separated. We believe that they will spend eternity together. We don't view the body as something to be endured until we can get rid of it. We embrace our bodies along with our souls.

The separation is temporary. It is not our actual bodies that cause us to sin, but our animal instints.

Being both spritual like the angels and physical like the animals, makes humans unique. I don't believe that we become "angels" when we die. We remain fully human, and for us, that means bodies.

Bethany,

It doesn't say at the "moment" of death. Simply, after death. We also believe that we will be with Him after death. After purgatory.

Nowhere does it say, immediately upon death.

If they have Christ in their lives, they arn't concerned with the material world. Of course material things are nice, but when you put complete trust in the Lord, He will provide you what you need.

JLM 1:29,

Someone who is hungry and suffering in poverty is concerned with surviving. What I'm trying to say is that life is not all "beautiful pastures" to ALL those who accept Christ, as you are suggesting. Christ tells us there will be suffering here on earth, even for those who love Him.

We don't believe that the body and spirit are meant to be separated. We believe that they will spend eternity together. We don't view the body as something to be endured until we can get rid of it. We embrace our bodies along with our souls.

Why? I don't understand. It's so clearly there in the Bible. Yes, our bodies have a purpose -on this earth- but in heaven, they don't.

Can you explain to me what you think Paul meant when he said what he said in Romans, since you see it through a different lens than I do?

Oh, let me clarify that. Our earthly bodies dont' matter in heaven. We receive new, heavenly bodies, perfect and without sin, immortal.

It doesn't say at the "moment" of death. Simply, after death. We also believe that we will be with Him after death. After purgatory.
Nowhere does it say, immediately upon death.

To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord.

That sounds to me quite clearly that if we (our souls) are not present in our bodies, then our souls are present with the Lord.
I don't understand how you can separate it and say there is a space? I am trying desperately to see how you see it and I just can't, MK.

Bethany,

"Bobby, Romans talks about this a lot. This is our flesh fighting our spirit. Once our flesh is dead, our spirit lives on, and is completely free of sin. We do not have sin anymore once we leave our body of flesh, if we have been "born again" of the Spirit."

I know you're not trying to say this, but your interpretation of the Romans passage somewhat implies body-soul dualism. We are a body-soul integration. It seems as if you are saying that the flesh is holding us back. Now St. Paul talks about how the dead shall be raised in 1 Cor 15, and our bodies will be resurrected. If that is the case, then it is not the flesh that is evil. So even though our souls can not sin anymore (but I think we believe this for perhaps different reasons), it still has to "account" for it's behaviour. Otherwise, we seem to be saying that the soul "takes no resposability for what the body did during my life on earth." But they are an integration, a fusion. Do you see what I mean about this idea leading to dualism?

"Mk, the Bible says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. If the Lord isn't present in Purgatory, then how could we be there after dying?"

Be careful here. I think you're talking about 2 Cor 5:6-8, correct? However, the KJV states

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You quoted it a little bit differently than it is stated, and I think there is a big difference.

Also, purgatory is not away from God. In fact, it is God's love that purifies us in purgatory. It's like the foyer to heaven. God love you, friend.

After my father-in-law died, my wife had a vivid dream of her father when he was dying (lying bed after his stoke). Then, during the dream he appeared to her to in his newly formed restored body, telling my wife not to worry about him and that he was Ok.

Oh that's beautiful jasper! Did she tell you what the resurrected body looked like????

Someone who is hungry and suffering in poverty is concerned with surviving. What I'm trying to say is that life is not all "beautiful pastures" to ALL those who accept Christ, as you are suggesting. Christ tells us there will be suffering here on earth, even for those who love Him.

To someone who accepts Christ and trusts on Him, they will not have a need to worry about tomorrow;

Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

PIP,

It's like I said for the analogy. It's like me never showing my face but when people come knocking on my door, I say, "well you should have gotten the message from so-and-so. Sorry. Go away to hell forever." Where is justice in this?

You're confusing justice with mercy. Mercy is when the deserved punishment is removed or lessened, but justice is when it is doled out.

The rules have been stated. To ignore them is to do so at your own risk. Mercy would mean that you would be allowed entry anyway. Justice, by definition, would mean that you weren't.

Now Saint Faustina is know for "The Divine Mercy" She had visions of Jesus for years. You may have seen this picture that Jesus asked her to have painted...

She says that He told her that now, this time period, is the time of His greatest mercy throughout all of history, and that it would be easier to become a believer now than ever. But that soon, very soon, His mercy would end and His justice would begin. I think this is why you hear such an urgency in our voices.

You can read more about Divine Mercy here:

http://www.divinemercysunday.com/UnderstandDM.pdf

If Jesus has removed our sin and the sin is the muck and you will walk in green pastures and arrive at the door with no mud/sin on your shoes, are you claiming that you no longer sin? That because you believe in Jesus, you have become sinless?

Posted by: mk at February 25, 2008 1:43 PM

Not sinless, mk, forgiven for sins. That precious work was done on the Cross over 2000 years ago, for past, present and future sins. I was made righteous in His eyes the moment I accepted Him. Once Christ is in me, nothing can seperate me from Him or Him from me.

He didn't say He would come and go from my life depending on if I sin or not, He said He will never leave me. Once righteous, always righteous. That is what God said. (not in those exact words, though!) He didn't say righteous, then unrighteous, then righteous again until I was "good enough". He said that I was made righteous the moment my sins were paid for.

I know you're not trying to say this, but your interpretation of the Romans passage somewhat implies body-soul dualism. We are a body-soul integration. It seems as if you are saying that the flesh is holding us back. Now St. Paul talks about how the dead shall be raised in 1 Cor 15, and our bodies will be resurrected. If that is the case, then it is not the flesh that is evil. So even though our souls can not sin anymore (but I think we believe this for perhaps different reasons), it still has to "account" for it's behaviour. Otherwise, we seem to be saying that the soul "takes no resposability for what the body did during my life on earth." But they are an integration, a fusion. Do you see what I mean about this idea leading to dualism?

Bobby, if we must bear the responsibility for our sins, then what did Jesus die for?

Bethany,

Give me the whole scripture passage.

Also, why can't Jesus be present in purgatory? He can be anywhere and everywhere.

You're confusing justice with mercy. Mercy is when the deserved punishment is removed or lessened, but justice is when it is doled out.

Well said, MK.

Bethany,
Give me the whole scripture passage.

1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Hi there JLM. I have to ask, then, how you understand much of 1 Cor 9, particularly verse 27. St. Paul pummels his body lest he should be disqualified. If anyone had an assurance of salvation, surely it would be Paul. What do you understand his worry to be? Thanks, God love you.

Bethany,

Bobby, if we must bear the responsibility for our sins, then what did Jesus die for?

Again, you misunderstand our understanding of sin. We believe there are two remedies for every sin. Jesus forgiveness, which allows to share eternity with Him, and the temporal remittance, which is the "cleansing". This is because we believe that as a community our sin affects everyone. My sin harms people I'll never meet. Evil is loosed/fed.
I must do something to offset this.

Original sin could NOT be erased. Nothing we could do could remove it. His death did that. But any sins committed by us after baptism, must be offset.

Yes, He took the punishment due to us. That punishment is death. And because of Him, we will not die. But that does not mean we will not be punished/cleansed. Death is the wages of sin. Death is eradicated by His death. But only Death.

Bethany,

Give me the numbers...I need ENGLISH!

MK,

I never saw Jesus appear to me, and I'm sure many people get to see Him either.

If we want to talk mercy, where is the mercy in rejecting someone who tries their whole life to reach God but do it in a different way? Wouldn't it be like failing a test over a subject we were never taught?

Also, why can't Jesus be present in purgatory? He can be anywhere and everywhere.

Posted by: mk at February 25, 2008 2:06 PM

Because He has no sin, MK. Come on. Are you saying that Jesus has sin to supposedly burn off???

This is because we believe that as a community our sin affects everyone. My sin harms people I'll never meet. Evil is loosed/fed.
I must do something to offset this.

But the wages of sin IS death. Death is the final payment for all of our sins, no matter how great or small, MK. On earth, I completely agree with you- we must face the natural consequences on earth for things that we do- such as a smoker will receive the consequences of smoking if he develops lung cancer- an excessive gambler will receive the consequences of his gambling- misery, poverty, etc.
But once we are dead, there is no more payment for sin.
This is what it consistently says through Romans, 1 Corinthians, Acts, the 1-2-3 Peters, 1-2-3 John, etc...
Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where it says that we must still face consequences for our sin after death, besides the judgement of hell or heaven?

I'm saying that Jesus can be anywhere. Sin or no sin. He spent 33 years on earth didn't he? He can stop into purgatory for visit, sure.

Bethany,

I posted 50 scripture passages doing just that, along with the explanations. Did you read them?

Actually to amend that last analogy:

Say you were interested in psychology so you devote your life to it, in its personal application and the application of aiding people.

Then in finals week, you are handed a calculus test. You have never taken it, heard of it but never really understood it, and are told if you fail it, you will never be able to study psychology again. In fact, you must never return to education again, but live on the streets for the rest of your life. Where is your professor's mercy?

If we want to talk mercy, where is the mercy in rejecting someone who tries their whole life to reach God but do it in a different way? Wouldn't it be like failing a test over a subject we were never taught?

It would be more like failing a test that we had been given the book to study from, and decided not to read and learn, and ended up failing as a result.

Death is not the final payment. Death is supposed to be the final payment. By all rights we should all be in Hell. His death took away our death. Not our punishment. Only our death.

Here are those passages again...

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
Posted by: mk at February 25, 2008 1:18 PM

"Bobby, if we must bear the responsibility for our sins, then what did Jesus die for?"

Right. So without getting into trying to prove my claim, let me illustrate my claim to better help understanding (this will be similar to JLM's analogy) Before Jesus' work on the cross, there was an iron-clad door outside of heaven. No human could opewn it, no one could ever dream of opening it. But it was Jesus who eventually came and unlocked that door as a total act of giving to us. We did nothing to merit his opening of that door. Now the door is open, but we have to choose either to go through the door or not. Finally, those of us who choose to accept the free unmerited gift by going through the door may have to stop and wipe off our shoes in the foyer, which is purgatory. Some have clean shoes already so they can walk directly in.

So what Chrtist's work accomplished was reconciling us with heaven, inviting us over, so to speak. However, we have to be worthy, and he did that for us too. I mean, we believe that purgatory is his provision. But we see salvation as a process, which is somewhat the heart of our disagreement. Calvin (I think it was him) was quite insightful when he said that teh issue of justification is the pillar on which the church stands or falls. I'm really beginnning to see that almost all of the Catholic/Protestant disagreements all boil down to our understanding of justification. Man, good stuff. God love you.

"It would be more like failing a test that we had been given the book to study from, and decided not to read and learn, and ended up failing as a result. "

Or given several subjects saying there is only one you can take, you deciding to take one, and then find out later you chose the wrong subject to study. Sorry! You fail and can never return.

"Oh that's beautiful jasper! Did she tell you what the resurrected body looked like????"

I just called my wife to ask her...LOL.

Yes, his body was surrounded by a white mist. She just saw his face and said it was similiar to his high-school picture.(much younger).

Right. So without getting into trying to prove my claim, let me illustrate my claim to better help understanding (this will be similar to JLM's analogy) Before Jesus' work on the cross, there was an iron-clad door outside of heaven. No human could opewn it, no one could ever dream of opening it. But it was Jesus who eventually came and unlocked that door as a total act of giving to us. We did nothing to merit his opening of that door. Now the door is open, but we have to choose either to go through the door or not. Finally, those of us who choose to accept the free unmerited gift by going through the door may have to stop and wipe off our shoes in the foyer, which is purgatory. Some have clean shoes already so they can walk directly in.

You don't believe that Jesus death was to cover our sins, but it was simply analogous to opening a door so that we could get into heaven if we work to cleanse our own sins? Is that an accurate representation of what you said?

Or given several subjects saying there is only one you can take, you deciding to take one, and then find out later you chose the wrong subject to study. Sorry! You fail and can never return.

Do you not think that God is powerful enough to get the message out to everyone, PIP?

Are you worried that you do not know for sure which is true for yourself? If you are, I would suggest in all kindness that you pray, seek, beg God to help you to know which is the correct one. Pray while reading the Bible. Ask him to show you what is correct. He will show you if you are willing to listen to his still, small voice.

I hope that I represent it correctly so I can know how to respond. :)

Bobby,

His life is like running a race to get the prize. The prize being his reward in heaven. Not the earthly, corruptable one, but the Heavenly, incorruptable one. Although it may be difficult at times (the race), he keeps running to achieve that great reward that is waiting for him in Heaven. The race is him preaching the gospel to his generation, so that it will be passed down to the next generation, and so on, and so on.

His spreading the gospel is like dropping a rock into water. The ripple effect (each generation)will eventually reach the shorline (Judgement Day) at which time, the race is over, and he will receive his Heavenly, incorruptible reward.

I don't believe it was about his salvation, Bobby,

MK 2:22 thank you...I'll take a look at all of those and get back with you. It'll probably take some time! LOL

I don't believe it was about his salvation, Bobby,

That is what I believe, because it would have to contradict all of the other stuff that he said in the majority of the text of his books, if it were referring to his salvation. We have to read what he said in the light of everything else he said, in order to have a full understanding of what it meant. It we read that passage, and it seems to disagree with the other passages, either it contradicts, or we're reading it wrong.

Over and over in Romans Paul states that salvation is a gift, that we can not earn it by works of any kind. If he meant that then why would he go against it by then saying that we have to work for it?

PIP,

Actually to amend that last analogy:

Say you were interested in psychology so you devote your life to it, in its personal application and the application of aiding people.

Then in finals week, you are handed a calculus test. You have never taken it, heard of it but never really understood it, and are told if you fail it, you will never be able to study psychology again. In fact, you must never return to education again, but live on the streets for the rest of your life. Where is your professor's mercy?
Posted by: prettyinpink at February 25, 2008 2:21 PM

But that would be like the Hindu who didn't know anything about Jesus. What you are asking is, what if I heard about it, but didn't believe it?

What if you were given three history books and told that only one of them contained the truth. You would be tested, but the answers, the correct answers could only be found in one of them. You'd have to study all three and really learn your material in order to discern which text contained the truth.

Same here. You have to research all of the faiths that attract you, learn you material, and then discern which one is the truth. Some people don't need to do that, but others, like you (and me) won't be happy just accepting someones else "word for it"...so study the bible. Study the catechism. Read, read, read...

You'll come to know the truth in time.

But simply dismissing it out of hand because other people claim they have the truth isn't gonna cut it.

Look at your previous stance on abortion. You were all for it. Thought everyones view had merit. Then you spent months on Jills site (and others), read, read, read and came to the conclusion that we were right. Abortion is wrong.

You discerned the truth there. Why not here?

"You don't believe that Jesus death was to cover our sins, but it was simply analogous to opening a door so that we could get into heaven if we work to cleanse our own sins? Is that an accurate representation of what you said?"

Not quite. You said "cover sins" and I don't know if you're referring to Luther's idea about "dung covered in snow" but that is not our understanding. Jesus death was atonement for sins. For whatever reason (I don't want to get into atonement theories) the sins of mankind needed atonement. Christ atoned for our sins.

Okay, so what does that mean? It means that he merited for us the ability to become righteous. This is a big difference as far as our understandings of justification go. So our sins are not covered, and God simply looks favorably at us, we ACTUALLY ARE made good. So if anything, we give Jesus too much credit. We actually believe that he can make, the worst sinner of them all, good. And hence, Christ merited for us our ability to merit.

Let's see, I've somewhat digressed. We can not work to cleanse our own sins. That is the fire of God's love that cleanses our sins. Like I said before, Purgatory is part of what Jesus merited for us on the cross. It is the final step in our sanctification that Jesus merited for us.

I don't know if that clears anything up, but there is some more detail of our understanding.

Bethany at 2:35 PM

Exactly.

I simply think there are people more deserving to get into heaven than I ever will be but according to the Christian religion they will not be there as if what they did means nothing.

I think this is an unmerciful position. If someone died a Buddhist and devoter her life to helping other people but still didn't make it to heaven, then what in the world is our life here worth?!

Again how could I rejoice in a salvation when others are perishing? Especially when we have no proof of who is right or wrong on this world anyway?

That is the fire of God's love that cleanses our sins. Like I said before, Purgatory is part of what Jesus merited for us on the cross. It is the final step in our sanctification that Jesus merited for us.

Bobby,
Then what were all of the scriptures in the bible that said that His blood did that, there for then?

hi JLM,

about scripture - because Christ Jesus is a living being His word is effective now .... even if the Word does not change and grow, we as recipients do change our listening abilities. The use of "Word" for 'Logos' (the original Greek) is brilliant because a word-spoken is always paired with-a-word-listened-to. The use of "Word" describes God not only as Truth but as Communicator. It is not about need but about the very nature of God... read if possible 'God In Search of Man' Abraham Heschel. God's salvation is a response to His listening.

There is a truism that God gave us one mouth but two ears. Be quick to listen but slow to answer. Very often people get angry at Christians who seemed to have words so fast. Do we take time to listen? We sometimes profess that 'Jesus is the ANSWER ... long before any question is asked. In doing so do we not stop communication ... a hug, a kiss, a tear shed, laughter, a gaze lots and lots of non-verbal Word ... not written anywhere.

@Dougster,

Like spacetime the eternal now is hard to fathom. The best book I've read on this is 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'. You make a troubling fixed problem ... the now is not a very short past. All words are of the past. These are 'memory' and the future is also in our heads exclusively and is called imagination. Often we make a very quick transition from one to the other and think we've experienced 'now'. Like American tourists seeking out a MacDonald's in Paris, France, we've missed the 'now'. 'Take time to smell the roses' is an axiom used for this!

'Now' is the only actuality that exists, but it is the universe and everything in it bears uniqueness. God is Lord of the universe still because sin is quite often linked with memory and imagination which are parts of human thought/virtuality.

"and then discern which one is the truth."

If there is no evidence or guidelines either way how could each discernment be said to be right or wrong? If I have to study all three books for the test, why not take the main idea for each and when the test comes I know all the stuff anyway? Will I be penalized for discerning which sounds right but seeing the merits in the other books?

Seems to me Corinthians 9:27 through 10:22 pretty much covers the Eucharist, once saved can become unsaved, purgatory...excellent chapter!

Pip,

No, that is what we mean by respecting other faiths. All faiths have some truth. You may take those truths and keep them. Kahlil Gibran, Ghandi...all kinds of people have all kinds of things that are worth knowing. We're talking about the fullness of truth tho.

There may be things in all three books that say the same things. This would be a clue. But it is where they diverge that you must discern the truth.

As long as you know which one is the true History book, then feel free to browse the others.

Bethany and LJM,

"Over and over in Romans Paul states that salvation is a gift, that we can not earn it by works of any kind. If he meant that then why would he go against it by then saying that we have to work for it? "

Bethany, you said some great stuff in the paragraph above this paragraph (which I didn't post). But you hit on a good point. The Paul of 1 Cor can not contradict the Paul of Romans. So let me tell you how we understand Romans.

Let's look at a famous text for "faith alone" Romans 3:28.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Now, the very next verse reads

29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

In fact, in the entire letter to the Romans, it is clear that Paul is discussing with the Judiazers whether or not those who are Christians need to be circumcized, follow kosher laws, etc. That is clear from verse 29-30. See St. Paul uses this phrase "works of the law" or "deeds of the law" which many people interpret as "good works" or "corporal works of mercy." But that understanding of works is nowhere found in the context Romans. All the works he refers to are circumcision and other now meaningless Jewish ceremonial laws. So "works of the law" is not the same thing as when Catholics use the word "works" as in "faith and works." This perfectly makes sense of chapter 2 now.

I listen and read a lot of RC Sproul and other Protestant scholars, and I have never once heard them address this understanding of Romans. Paul never discusses corporal works of mercy. That's why this phrase "works of the law" can not be works of mercy. Even in Romans 4 where we have the famous Abraham story, his point is that Abraham was justified before he was circumcised. So that's the way we understand Romans. God love you.

"
Then what were all of the scriptures in the bible that said that His blood did that, there for then?"

JLM, are you asking for scripture or saying how do I understand certain scripture passages?

MK,

how would you know to discern them? Seems like searching and picking from the "history books" is just a gamble.

Bobby,
Ok, that sounds great. Post a few scriptures regarding what the purpose of the sacrifice of Jesus' blood was for, and then show me how that blood sacrifice was not good enough to pay for ALL sin. The challenge: use the KJV.

JLM,
"show me how that blood sacrifice was not good enough to pay for ALL sin."

You still don't quite understand the doctrine of purgatory. Christ's blood atoned for our sins. All of them. Purgatory is to be cleansed of any attachment we have to sin. Not sin itself, but attachment.

Plus MK posted many passages including 1 Cor 3:15 above that show that the doctrine of purgatory is scriptural.

Bobby,

Explain this attachment to sin, then. How many parts does sin have? If Jesus paid for ALL sin, wouldn't that include your "attachment" part also?

Also, can you please show me, by scripture, where it tells us that we have parts of sin that still have to be removed, and also scripture where Jesus tells us the same?

Be careful that you don't use scripture involving animal blood sacrifices from the Old Testament, though. These were not good enough to pay for sin. Only Jesus' blood did that.

Bobby,

From my previous post:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The idea of purgatory negates what God Himself has said. You would have to wipe out much of the new testament, including Jesus’ own words, if the concept of purgatory was real.

The Catholic Church itself ADMITS that purgatory is their own invention. The Council of Trent took place in 1545 and approved this superstitious belief along with many others. The decrees were made by the council of MEN, not the God of the Bible. And those who would refuse to believe the decrees of Rome were under the threat of "anathema," and the curse has not yet been lifted to this day.

Although it may "sound good" to you, it was still an invention BY MAN, and NOT by God.

And no, 1 Corinthians 3:15 does not "prove" purgatory. Read the whole chapter. Heck, the whole book. Bethany has already explained this chapter in previous threads.

Purgatory cannot be "proven" because purgatory was and still is an invention of the Catholic church. It was not taught by any of the disciples, Bobby. The "idea" came about in the year 1545.

"I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

"Explain this attachment to sin, then. How many parts does sin have? If Jesus paid for ALL sin, wouldn't that include your "attachment" part also?"

Sin does not have any parts. It is not a being. The attachment to sin is a result of original sin that we inherent from our parents, known as concupiscence. Being attached to something is not the same thing as the object of action. Even if I don't sin, I have the tendency to want to sin. We all do. We all do. That is concupiscence. I am tempted to look at pornography on the internet. I hate pornography, it is vile and evil, yet my hedonistic tendencies make me attracted to it. Do I look at it? No, hence I don't sin. Do I have a disordered desire to want to look at it? Yes. But that is not a sin. So it is that kind of thing that we will be cleansed of in purgatory.

"Also, can you please show me, by scripture, where it tells us that we have parts of sin that still have to be removed, and also scripture where Jesus tells us the same?"

Again, MK already posted many scripture passages. Now she posted a lot, granted. But here's the idea, JLM. You can not point to one passage in scripture to convince someone 100% that God is three persons in one nature. This has to be gleamed from several different texts; one has to show that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the HS is God. Then one has to show that there is only one God. After that, we come up with theology that says that all those passgaes put together infer what we call the doctrine of the trinity. For your second question, the answer is from the inferences given what we know about the atonement, salvation, and purgatory from scripture.

There are many things that are not written down that Jesus said and did as St John mentions at the end of his gospel. No where in the bible does the bible teach that everything we must believe has to be clearly stated in the bible. Jesus left us a Church to teach in his name so that there wouldn't be these kinds of disputes. Even our forefathers when they established the USA didn't just hand us a constitution and say "here, everyone interpret this for yourselves in the spirit of George Washington." No, they set up a hierarchical establishment to ensure that laws would be understood properly. So that is ultimately where we Catholics obtain our understanding of doctrine; through the deposit of faith handed down by the apostles to all generations. God love you.

"The Catholic Church itself ADMITS that purgatory is their own invention."

The CC admits no such thing. Show me where they admit this. Also, purgatory was understood by the early church. Here are several quotes from church fathers.

http://catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

So purgatory was much earlier than 1545.

"And those who would refuse to believe the decrees of Rome were under the threat of "anathema," and the curse has not yet been lifted to this day."

A curse... Wow, okay. Anathema is simply a way of stating that what is about to be pronounced is de fide. I strongly recommend you start obtaining information about what Catholics teach from Catholic sources.

Whenever a date is set for the "invention" of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?

A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?

They don’t exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that "true believers" in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.

It is no wonder, then, that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of the belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.

Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is not contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It proves there can be more than just heaven and hell.

Bobby,
How about wikipedia? seems like an unbiased source to me!

Anathema

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anathema

If you so choose to use the least "rough" definition, that would be excommunication:

Anathema in the Roman Catholic Church

While "minor excommunication" could be incurred by associating with an excommunicate, and "major excommunication" could be imposed by any bishop, "anathema" was imposed by the Pope in a specific ceremony described in the Pontificale Romanum. Wearing a purple cope (the liturgical color of penitence) and holding a lighted candle, he, surrounded by twelve priests, also with lighted candles, pronounced the anathema with a formula that concluded with the phrase:

"Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive (Name) himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment." The priests responded: "Fiat, fiat, fiat" (Let it be done), and all, including the pontiff, cast their lighted candles on the ground.

Notice is sent in writing to the priests and neighbouring bishops of the name of the one who has been excommunicated and the cause of his excommunication, in order that they may have no communication with him. Although he is delivered to Satan and his angels, he can still, and is even bound to repent. The Pontifical gives the form for absolving him and reconciling him with the Church.[1]

You say, "simply a way of stating that what is about to be pronounced is de fide"

Sounds like a curse to me, Bobby.

I love religion. Everyone who disagrees with me is just a big ***ktard!

It is not possible to have a serious religious discussion here, Jill. Later.

That is all true; however, that is not what is meant when it is used in councils. I use the word "anathema" to describe, say, a Catholic bishop parades around supporting abortion and doing all sorts of evil. And that's one meaning. But when the council of Trent uses it (or any other ecumenical council) all it refers to is an infallible teaching.

So there are two different ways in which we use that word. The wiki article only mentions the one, but Trent uses it in the other way.

And I do want to apologize. I was a bit rude above. That was uncalled for, and I see now that it is easier to get it confused than I thought. Obviously we are both quite passionate, and it's easy to get wound up. Mea culpa. God love you.

Tony, that was Laura who said that. She is not religious and she almost always tries to get a reaction out of people. I think LJM and I are and MK and Bethany are having a great discussion. Don't let Laura makes you leave.

Bobby,
no apologies necessary. You guys are too sweet. You always think you're rude when I never took it that way. All I see is passion on both sides. Passion is a good thing!

God bless you too, Bobby!

I'll get back to some questions later on this evening.

:)

Okay, I'm gonna go too. We can all just chill. This thing is so addictive. God love you, friend.

Wait, you're not Anonymous from last week, are you?

...I strongly recommend you start obtaining information about what Catholics teach from Catholic sources.,/i>

Bobby,

I followed your recommendation. The Roman Church proclaimed purgatory as an article of faith in 1439 at the Council of Florence, and it was confirmed by Trent in 1548.

Per your friend, Fr. John Corapi

http://www.fathercorapi.com/articledet.aspx?articleID=753244527

Purgatory is the final purification of a person who is on their way to heaven. Only the truly pure and perfected in grace can see God face to face. If we don't achieve the perfection of charity on this earth the mercy of God provides for us a place of final purification. This is purgatory, and it is a doctrine of the faith. "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent" (#1031). The church's teaching is based upon certain texts of Scripture such as 2 Maccabees 12:46, remembering that only the church's magisterium has the authority to authentically interpret Scripture, not any individual expressing what they think is "plausible."

Now, I’m not going to go there either (Maccabees?) , but Mr. Corapi seems to agree with me on the timeline of the invention, and also quotes that it was invented “formulated”.

Formulated = To devise or invent (the other definitions don’t apply).

I'm impressed. (arg, I said I was gonna go... can't stay away...)But by formulate, we mean the first definition that dictionary.com gives.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/formulate

I hate to get into semantics, but there really is a big difference between invent and formulate. I agree completely that it wasn't hammered out until Trent. But the doctrine of the Trinity was not hammered out until 325. Now obviously that's much, much closer to the time of Jesus, but the point is that these doctrines don't really get hammered out until they are being challenged. I think that link I gave above shows that the idea was around in the early church, and it just took
time and challenges to really spell out exactly what we meant by purgatory. In fact, granted that even if you don't accept the Maccabees as scripture, it still is a historical document which is good for getting a glimpse into how certain people lived or believed.

"The Roman Church proclaimed purgatory as an article of faith in 1439 at the Council of Florence, and it was confirmed by Trent in 1548."

Also, we didn't infallibly define the canon of scripture until that same council of Trent. So that just goes back to my above point that the Church is very slow to define something de fide. She usually saves it for only when there is confusion. Even something that we both agree on, the canon of scripture (barring Deuterocanonical books) the Church did not claim infallible until it absolutely HAD to.

But going to Father Corapi, that's very impressive. You'll begin to see that everything that I say is stolen from him :) God love you.

Bobby,
Ok, so it took 300 years to define Trinity (understandable), but some 1400+ years to decide that we would need to burn for a while before we could enter Heaven? This all coming from a religion that claims that it is the root of Christianity and the church that Jesus built? If there were such wonderful teachers at the beginning (they were there at that time) why did it take so long for your religion to formulate purgatory? I mean, we're talking 1400+ years AFTER Christ! Or beter yet, this was only 600 years ago.

If your religion's formulation on purgatory is correct, isn't where you go when you die supposedly your crux, or a HUGE part of Christianity? It wasn't hammered out until Trent?

JLM,

You don't seem to be acknowledging my posts...
If you read this you will understand that what Bobby says is true. The acceptance of purgatory goes back to before Christianity. Jews believe in purification. It was never questioned until the 1400's. So it was clarified and made doctrine. I don't know why this is so important to you. You belong to a church (which is a HUGE part of your faith) that didn't even exist til the 1500's.

Whenever a date is set for the "invention" of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?
*
A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?
*
They don’t exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that "true believers" in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.
*
It is no wonder, then, that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of the belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.
*
Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is not contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It proves there can be more than just heaven and hell.

JML,

Plus I have twice now, given you scripture passages that clearly show that purgatory was indeed an accepted belief in Jesus' time, and yet you just ignored them.

Did you want scripture passages, or didn't you?

http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

mk,
Regarding the scriptures that you gave me (thank you very much), well, for starters, there are seven of them in the first paragraph alone, that span the width of almost the beginning of the bible through Revelation. I am looking into each one of them that you posted, but it is going to take me time.

Please forgive me for not getting back to you quick enough. I promise you, I will though..

:)

JLM,

Take your time. I just didn't know if you saw them, or dismissed them.

There were a lot of them, I agree.

I'm probably signing off for now, but look forward to you response.

God Bless,
MK

For all the particpants in this thread -thanks, very interesting discussion, I've learned alot...

"No effect is necessary. The Knowledge alone is enough. If our future is known to any entity, then that "is" you mentioned is the deal, rather than anything else. The "is" could not be altered."

MK: Well, of course it could, up until the moment that "is" became "was"...I don't see why His knowing means that we didn't choose it.

No, MK - there is no "didn't choose it." "He" would know what you're gonna pick. The "is" is what you pick. There is nothing else if it's known already.
......

I can have an orange or an apple. I choose an orange. God knows that I will choose the orange. He knew I would choose the orange before I was born. Before there were oranges. He didn't cause me to choose the orange. But he saw me choose it. He knows I chose it. But that in no way interfered with my ability to choose it

No, you were gonna choose the orange. You weren't going to choose the apple because it was known that the orange was it.
.......

Predestination would mean that He laid it all out before hand, then wound me up and set me on my path, leaving me no choice, but to do what He programmed me to do. But He didn't "program" me.

Nope, again - causation isn't required. Just the fact of knowing what the future holds is enough.
......

He created me and then said do what you will. Now if you choose to do what I want you to do, I will begin interfering in your life, but if you choose not to do what I want you to do, then you will be at the mercy of my Natural Law.

There's the contradiction - there is no "if you choose," because your choice is already known to him. It's a done deal.
......

And He knows what I chose, and He knows what you have chosen, but He had nothing to do with those choices...

The knowing alone is enough.

Doug, Huh?

JLM, I know a guy on a gardening message board with the same initials. I realize it was a total longshot, but just wondered if you were one and the same. I gather that it's "nope." It would have been a heck of a coincidence.

Doug

It is hard to believe that Doug is still totally under the sway of his parent's religion to this day.
Sad, but Doug is simply using TULIP reasoning of Calvin as a argument about his version of trying to construct a god.
Gee, Doug, you and Fred Phelps think alike in constructing a all knowing god.
I can't blame ya Doug for leaving the Jesus that allows murder by his followers, which is exactly your parent's version of god is, and sadly ending up where your parent's were in the first place. No progress, no ability to think outside the caged mental box your parent's constructed in your mind as a child. Maybe the only progress in you Doug, is that you left that personal killer god, and have constructed some doubt in your mind about really knowing anything absolutely about a god,force,spirit or whatever you name it, Doug. But, you didn't wander very far from your superstiitous parent's god to me Doug. I like you Doug, and wish you had at least been able to construct a force/spirit, non living, all powerful, all knowing, flying spaghetti monster, with the boring fact that it is exactly like all those other ideas about god that murders its creation.
You really believe all the words you have written on this page about your conclusions and decisons of your version of your god constructs, or you must have some doubt about the words you have written about your "god thinking", on this page.
If you really believe every word you wrote about your thinking about your version of "god theology", Doug, then your not a agnostic, who admits he just doesn't really know for sure, or know for sure, his thoughts about knowing the true nature of a god.
Which is to say Doug, your a put on, a fake argument, a hillarious parade of some doubter, thinking about his doubts, and then either believing every word you wrote concerning this attempt to prove your parent's theology, missing Jesus of course, which is based in ABSOLUTE pre-destination from the all knowing god construction of them in you mind still, Doug.
Do you believe Doug, every word you wrote about your personal thoughts, based on logic deductions of Doug, about some all knowing,predestination god/force/spirit? Yes or no Doug?
Now, Doug, I know it is hard to come to terms with the fact your a contradiction in terms, or truth, and I am leaving it up to you to complete where this is leading to logically for you, and your agnostic/absolute conumdrum you have created by your own written words.
See it Doug, YET?
This is hillarious, a agnostic arguing about all knowing, all powerful, pre-destination and other ABSOLUTE attributes, of a mental invention in the first place.
Man Doug, your mommy and daddy's religion screwed you up for life.
Tell ya what Doug, take a break and do some reading by GK Chesterton, Doug. May I suggest two chapters from Orthodoxy, Doug, for you to regain your mind from your parent's version of the murdering Jesus, and the hillarious fact your a doubter still trying to come to grips with absolute all knowing god construction.
Chapter one; The Maniac.
Chapter two; The Suicide Of Thought.
It's free and on line Doug.
Poor Doug.

mk,
OK. Here goes. I'm going to break this down paragraph by paragraph in regard to your February 25, 2008 2:22 PM post:

Paragaph #1

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matthew 5:26, “I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” When reading the previous verse for the sake of context (25: Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.) we find that it states, “Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, in order that your opponent may not deliver you to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.” We learn that Jesus was talking about reconciliation between people and not about the afterlife and the prison of Purgatory.

However, while a parable speaks of a reality it is a parable and any metaphor eventually breaks down because it is after all just that, a metaphor.

The context of this verse is that a man was going to be thrown into debtor’s prison, which is an incarceration that would not cease until the debtor has paid his financial dues.

The text tells of a man who owed an extremely large amount that he would never have been able to pay. A talent (Matthew verse 24) was equal to 6000 drachmas (the Greek name) or denarii (of the Roman name). Since the drachma was equal to about a day’s wages, it would take an average laborer almost 20 years to earn one talent. Ten thousand talents was thus equal to the lifetime earnings of the population of several good-sized villages. The man was forgiven 60 million drahmas but was unwilling to forgive 100. That is how Jesus compares our own sins against God with the sins others commit against us.

Notice Jesus’ statement that there is no hope of forgiveness UNLESS we forgive (verse 35.

Clearly, rather than speaking of a place of punishment from which he would eventually be freed, it speaks of a person who would never be released.

Now, since the crux of your paragraph deals mostly with those verses, the other verses mentioned do not coincide.

Sources: Holy Bible - KJV, Holy Spirit, Halley's Bible Handbook, lifeanddoctrinepurgatory.blogspot.com/

JLM,

The point of a parable in the bible is to liken our relationship with God to one that we can understand. Hence He uses an analogy that anyone of the time could understand. Paying what you owe.

Do we just ignore this?

The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10)

it speaks of a person who would never be released.

UNTIL the last penny is paid.

Paragraph #2

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matthew 5:43-48 These verses deal with the Hatred of enemies.

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Proverbs 24:17 Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do not let your heart rejoice”

and

Proverbs 25:21 If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.

Jesus deepens the requirement of compassion to the deeper requirement of love.

Luke 6:27-38

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Jesus also suggests that praying for one’s enemies is one of the ways in which we can express godly love (Matthew 5:44, But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you)

Clearly, these verses are Jesus showing us how to love our enemies, not hate them.

You said that Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect Your verse did not include the word “therefore”, as scripture states, which pertains that there were verses or a thought that came before it.

it speaks of a person who would never be released.

UNTIL the last penny is paid.

Posted by: mk at February 26, 2008 8:04 AM

If you read the post again, it clearly shows that this man, prisoner, will NEVER be able to pay his debt.

Plus the entire passage, from it's beginning, is dealing with the end times. This parable is used to illustrate our "ends"...

read Luke 12:54. and especially 12:57...

Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?
If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate...

He is talking about making good choices. He is saying that if you don't make good choices now, then you will pay later. Every last penny. But obviously, the debt can be paid.

Paragraph #3
(btw, the sources that I posted in my February 26, 2008 7:55 AM post have been used in all of these posts.)

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

The claim here is that Jesus was hinting about a place in the age to come were sins are forgiven. Speaking, or blasphemy, against the Holy Spirit is obviously a serious offense, a mortal sin if you will.

According to Roman Catholicism, Purgatory is a place where one may only have their venial sins forgiven: unrepented venial sins. Mortal sins must be repented (forgiven) before death, one may go to Purgatory in order to make satisfaction for forgiven mortal sins.

Apparently since there are only two modes of existence that humans experience, the here and the hereafter (this age or in the age to come), Jesus is saying that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven period; not here – not anywhere. Jesus is utilizing hyperbolic language in order to mean not now, not ever. It is like when someone says, “I’ll do so and so when hell freezes over,” do they really believe that there will be a time when hell will freeze over and that is when they will do so and so? No, they mean that they will never perform the act. He is not hinting at the possibility of having some sins forgiven in the hereafter.

Jesus taught more about Hell than anyone else in the whole Bible so why would He leave Purgatory as an ambiguous hint at best?

Finally, we consider the parallel passage found in Mark which makes Jesus’ point even clearer, “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation” (Mark 3:28-29).

In Luke 12:10 (And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.) the unpardonable sin is connected with the denial of Christ. Jesus seems to make a distinction between sin against Himself and sin against the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.).

The unpardonable sin is often understood to mean that rejecting Christ, while He was on earth and His work was as yet unfinished, and when even His disciples did not understand Him, was forgivable. But after His work was completed and the Holy Spirit had come, then the deliberate, final rejection of the Holy Spirit’s offer of Christ would constitute the eternal sin for which there is no forgiveness ever.

Similar sin is spoken of in Hebrews 6:6 (If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.), Hebrews 10:26 (For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,) and 1 John 5:16 (If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.)
Yet it is not always the vocal opponents of Christ who commit the unforgivable sin.

Paul was as vocal and active against Christ as anyone, yet Jesus called him personally to be His apostle (see Acts 9). The deliberate, final rejection of the Holy Spirit’s offer of Christ is more likely to result in a total indifference rather than a vocal opposition to Christ.

You said “This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory”. This proves what Jesus meant. There is no forgiveness in this life or the one after if you deliberately and finally reject the Holy Spirit’s offer of Christ.

Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?
If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate...

He is talking about making good choices. He is saying that if you don't make good choices now, then you will pay later. Every last penny. But obviously, the debt can be paid.

Posted by: mk at February 26, 2008 8:11 AM

He was saying to forgive your opponent, or you won't be forgiven. Like us, if we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven.

"Be perfect..."

I think the point is that NO ONE can be perfect. We can be forgiven, but not perfect. So if Jesus' death brought forgiveness, what brings "perfection"?

JLM,

He was saying to forgive your opponent, or you won't be forgiven. Like us, if we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven.

I'm sorry, I disagree. While that might be the secondary message, the primary one when taken in context of the preceding chapters, seems to me, to be about paying debts and making right choices.

Where you see agree with your adversary, I see come to terms.

If you read the post again, it clearly shows that this man, prisoner, will NEVER be able to pay his debt.

Not in this life, no. But it doesn't say you will be thrown in prison forever. It says UNTIL the debt is paid.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

The Bible itself states the man is in Hell. Why would it mean anything other than what it said?

The word "hell" in this passage comes from the greek word: "ᾅδης", which is translated to hadēs, and means
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions

2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead

3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell

The very same word is used in a few other passages which describe Hell in the Bible.
Such as:

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

*********************
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

(notice, Abraham and Lazarus did NOT give the man the mercy he desired.)

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

(If there is a gulf fixed, so that no one can pass from one to the other, then how could he go from this place of torment to Heaven if he was simply in purgatory? There is no way. God made it so that they cannot go from one to the other. This was Hell.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

**************************

I just don't see how that story could possibly be speaking about purgatory, especially when it actually uses the very word Hell that is described in other passages referring to Hell.
Do you see what I mean?

I think the point is that NO ONE can be perfect. We can be forgiven, but not perfect. So if Jesus' death brought forgiveness, what brings "perfection"?

Jesus blood brings perfection on us, when we are born again of His Spirit. \

Our earthly body will always have sin, but our soul cannot sin. The body and the soul are continually struggling in a war of sin vs goodness until the day we die.

"For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." Galatians 5:17

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." 1 John 5:16-18

Mk, I am confused about your view on the spotlessness of our souls. I was reading a Catholic article the other day when I was researching something else, and it claimed that protestants are the ones who do not believe that our souls are literally cleansed...but it says that Catholics do. Can you please help me to understand?

Here is the part of the article I read:

Really Cleansed

"Sanctifying grace implies a real transformation of the soul. Recall that most of the Protestant Reformers denied that a real transformation takes place. They said God doesn’t actually wipe away our sins. Our souls don’t become spotless and holy in themselves. Instead, they remain corrupted, sinful, full of sin. God merely throws a cloak over them and treats them as if they were spotless, knowing all the while that they’re not.

But that isn’t the Catholic view. We believe souls really are cleansed by an infusion of the supernatural life. Paul speaks of us as "a new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17), "created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph. 4:24). Of course, we’re still subject to temptations to sin; we still suffer the effects of Adam’s Fall in that sense (what theologians call "concupiscence"); but God removes the guilt from our souls. We may still have a tendency to sin, but God has removed the sins we have, much like a mother might wash the dirt off of a child who has a tendency to get dirty again.

Our souls don’t become something other than souls when God cleanses them and pours his grace into them (what the Bible refers to as "infused" ["poured"] grace, cf. Acts 10:45, Rom. 5:5 Titus 3:5–7); they don’t cease to be what they were before. When grace elevates nature, our intellects are given the new power of faith, something they don’t have at the merely natural level. Our wills are given the new powers of hope and charity, things also absent at the merely natural level."

http://www.catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp

@Doug,

"The knowing alone is enough." I'm with yllas here because Doug, God doesn't necessarily think as you do (He is not in a Cartesian box you are!) You just cannot seem to fathom that God is not some kind of mental construct.

We discussed this before but the surest and easiest way to dismiss the notion that all-is-just-a-dream, is pain. A good swift kick in the groin very quickly snaps a person out of dream existence, another is the need for food or breath, or the need to pee.

There is only 'is-ness'/now. What we call reality is a construct of two realms: actuality + virtuality. Actuality is God's domain and is this 'now' universe .... the virtuality is man's mental domain of memories and imagination. Much too often we believe the now occurs only in its transition to 'was'. This transition then is not tangible because thoughts are not tangible.

It's the old 'did the tree falling in the forest make a sound?'. Well 'yes' and 'no' - the tree does make pressure waves, but it is our brain's hearing apparatus that translates these waves into 'sound'.

We often are like the little kid who closes his eyes and because he can't see then he disappears. The act of 'growing-up' is the movement from illusions of being creator (flying) to accepting and rollicking in the fact that "I am a created being'."

Freedom does not come from selection of options (virtuality) but through the power of love/peace (actuality) .... to become one - in another .... space; time etc are of small consequence. As is thoughts of predestination. Doesn't mean very much at all except to the kid holding his breath to impress others with superior reasoning (virtuality) skills.

I really find it funny that St. John refers to the 'Logos' ... (mind of God), which we translate as the 'Word'. Yet PC'ers demand 'logic' from PL'ers without a reference to God.

John

Not in this life, no. But it doesn't say you will be thrown in prison forever. It says UNTIL the debt is paid.

Posted by: mk at February 26, 2008 8:24 AM

mk,
it would be like me putting you in prison and saying that you can't come out until you pay one trillion dollars. Now, how are you going to do that in prison? You can't. You'd never get out.(well, unless you are that filthy rich-lol!). That was the point. The man would never be able to pay that debt. Nowhere in that parable does it state that the man would be able to find a way to pay it in prison to get out. The point was that he couldn't.

JML,

This is one of the times where our definition of "grace" gets confusing.

Baptism removes, and I mean removes, the stain of original sin. But obviously, we are still capable of sinning. If we commit small sins, (venial) we can be forgiven our temporal punishment simply by confessing sorrow, doing penance (offering up suffering, prayer, etc.) but if we commit graver sins (mortal...sin so grave it puts your salvation in jeopardy) then confession to a priest is required. At that moment, the priest is in Persona Christi, the person of Christ, and we confess to Him. This is a sacrament, and like all sacraments we receive sanctifying graces when we participate in them.
This grace, cleanses us once again, and we become free from the stain of any sins we've confessed.

However, being human, we will invariably sin again. And new stains will appear.

Often we go to confession even when we have no mortal sins, just to receive these sanctifying graces. They aid us in our journey to become Holy.

Think of your soul as a crystal that you hang in the window. God is the Sun. He shines through your soul and rainbows are made, shining everywhere. Everytime you touch that crystal, you are leaving fingerprints/smudges. Each smudge attracts dust. Eventually the crystal will become so dull that the Sun can no longer shine through it. Going to confession is like getting out the windex. Small smudges mean less rainbows, but the Sun can still get through, like venial sins. Really, really dirty crystals cannot let any light in. This is why mortal sin puts your salvation in jeopardy. You have seriously compromised your relationship with God.

Mortal sin is so serious, that we may not receive communion (the Eucharist) until we have gone to confession and removed it.

Does that help?

JML,

mk,
it would be like me putting you in prison and saying that you can't come out until you pay one trillion dollars. Now, how are you going to do that in prison? You can't. You'd never get out.(well, unless you are that filthy rich-lol!). That was the point. The man would never be able to pay that debt. Nowhere in that parable does it state that the man would be able to find a way to pay it in prison to get out. The point was that he couldn't.

I understand what you are saying, and that just brings my point home more. You could never repay the debt IN THIS LIFE. This is why we understand it to mean that it would take lifetimes (thus take place somewhere other than on earth) to pay. But it can be paid. Otherwise, Jesus would have said "You can't come out, period" . But He doesn't. He says UNTIL. This causes us to ask, how is this possible. How can this debt be repayed. We won't live long enough.

But if we know no death, and live forever, we will have plenty of time to repay the debt...somewhere else.

Sorry, that post about confession was to Bethany. I didn't realize you had jumped into the conversation. If I had time, I'd change the name, but I have to drive John to work...

Here are some of my reasons for believing we are cleansed completely when we confess our sins and accept Jesus...we do not need any more cleansing after death because:

Romans 3:24: "...Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"
bullet Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..."
bullet 1 Corinthians 6:11: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus..."
bullet Titus 2:14: "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify onto himself a peculiar people..."
bullet Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
bullet 1 John 1:7: "...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
bullet 1 John 1:7: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness."
bullet 1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

(hope you don't read the bolds as shouting- they're only intended for emphasis). ;-) Love you, Marykay!

Hope you have a good morning, MK, and I may not be able to make many more posts this morning (have to leave in about an hour), so if I don't answer all of your posts, I'll try to get back to them when I can! :)

Bethany,

Hades and Hell are two different places. Hades is the underword or place of death. Hell is where we go when we reject God. Jesus descends into Hades (in our creed) but returns.

I'll look up a reference when I get back.

"Be perfect..."

I think the point is that NO ONE can be perfect. We can be forgiven, but not perfect. So if Jesus' death brought forgiveness, what brings "perfection"?

Posted by: mk at February 26, 2008 8:18 AM

Perfection is God's love. God is love. God is perfect. We are perfected IN His love:

1 Corinthians 13 (NLV)(one of my favorites!)
Love
1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Bethany

"Mk, I am confused about your view on the spotlessness of our souls. I was reading a Catholic article the other day when I was researching something else, and it claimed that protestants are the ones who do not believe that our souls are literally cleansed...but it says that Catholics do. Can you please help me to understand?"

I only have 10 minutes and then I have to go, but Catholics believe in what is called "infused righteousness" as opposed to the classical reformation understanding of "imputed righteousness." The Catholic belives that when God declares that we are just, we actually are made just, and the righteousness of Christ lives within us. The Classical reformation understanding is that when God declares that we are just, that is that. In other words, God declaring us just for the Protestant is a legal declaration. We are not really any better; God just "looks favorably" upon us. Incidently, that is why OSAS follows from the protestant understanding of justification. If it's just a legal declaration, what reason is there to think that God would renege?

Okay, now this is our the understanding of justification. So to try and tie thew Catholic understanding of justification and purgatory together, the idea is that even though we are made good, we MAY not be perfect, as of course know God requires. And the reason we may not be perfect even though we have God's own life living within us is that we still have an attraction, an attachment to sin. I explained the difference between actually sinning and having an attraction to sin (concupiscence) yesterday in this post to LJM, you can find it above (it mentions both the words "concupiscence" and "porn", so it shouldn't be hard to find.)

Now that being said, not everyone who is in a state of sanctifying grace (when you have God's life living within you i.e. the righteousness of Christ) is necessarily still attached to sin. So when they die, they go straight to heaven.

So to sum up, yes Catholic believe that once we are justified, we are MADE good and our souls ARE righteous in reality (and in particular, to God) because we have sanctifying grace in us; yet we may still have an attraction (not the same thing as actual sin as I tried to explain above) to sin itself. I"ll try to check back in a couple hours to see if that clarifies. God love you, Bethany.

Baptism removes, and I mean removes, the stain of original sin. But obviously, we are still capable of sinning. If we commit small sins, (venial) we can be forgiven our temporal punishment simply by confessing sorrow, doing penance (offering up suffering, prayer, etc.) but if we commit graver sins (mortal...sin so grave it puts your salvation in jeopardy) then confession to a priest is required. At that moment, the priest is in Persona Christi, the person of Christ, and we confess to Him. This is a sacrament, and like all sacraments we receive sanctifying graces when we participate in them.
This grace, cleanses us once again, and we become free from the stain of any sins we've confessed.

I agree that once we are transformed, we can still sin. But not "us", that is to say, our soul. Our soul, which is completely transformed, cannot sin. This is what 1 John explains about a lot.

Our flesh and our spirit are in a constant struggle until the day we die, and leave that sinful, mortal body behind, then receive our new, perfect, immortal body which is preserved from sin.

I think Jesus grace cleanses us once, and we only need to be cleansed once.

"Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, FATHER." Romans 8:15

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29

"He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:.. ." John 3:36

I already have everlasting life. Right now. This is because I have been born again, of an incorruptible seed of God.
My everlasting life began the day I accepted Christ. If it can be taken away, or ended, then I never had everlasting life to begin with.

Bobby, thanks for your reply, I'm reading it right now.

I understand what you are saying, and that just brings my point home more. You could never repay the debt IN THIS LIFE. This is why we understand it to mean that it would take lifetimes (thus take place somewhere other than on earth) to pay. But it can be paid. Otherwise, Jesus would have said "You can't come out, period" . But He doesn't. He says UNTIL. This causes us to ask, how is this possible. How can this debt be repayed. We won't live long enough.

But if we know no death, and live forever, we will have plenty of time to repay the debt...somewhere else.

Posted by: mk at February 26, 2008 8:53 AM

But Jesus didn't say that. The parable was that the man COULD NOT pay his debt. He would NEVER be able to. When Jesus said "until", it is understood that it would never happen. The man would never come up with that money. Again, if I were to put you in prison, I could tell you that you cannot come out UNTIL you pay your debt of one trillion dollars. You know it can't be done, and the "until" will never happen. It's an overwhelming thought to go somewhere and never get out. That's the point that Jesus was trying to make, and why forgiveness is so important.

I agree that once we are transformed, we can still sin. But not "us", that is to say, our soul. Our soul, which is completely transformed, cannot sin. This is what 1 John explains about a lot.

Our flesh and our spirit are in a constant struggle until the day we die, and leave that sinful, mortal body behind, then receive our new, perfect, immortal body which is preserved from sin.

I think Jesus grace cleanses us once, and we only need to be cleansed once.

"Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23

Amen, Bethany!

Okay, now this is our the understanding of justification. So to try and tie thew Catholic understanding of justification and purgatory together, the idea is that even though we are made good, we MAY not be perfect, as of course know God requires. And the reason we may not be perfect even though we have God's own life living within us is that we still have an attraction, an attachment to sin. I explained the difference between actually sinning and having an attraction to sin (concupiscence) yesterday in this post to LJM, you can find it above (it mentions both the words "concupiscence" and "porn", so it shouldn't be hard to find.)
Now that being said, not everyone who is in a state of sanctifying grace (when you have God's life living within you i.e. the righteousness of Christ) is necessarily still attached to sin. So when they die, they go straight to heaven.

There is where we disagree. I believe that once we are cleansed from all sins, we do become "perfect", but our body is still under the law of sin and therefore will continue to be tempted to sin, and it is continually warring with our spirit until the day we die and shed that old body of sin.

I believe that every single person who is saved still is connected to that body of sin, just as Paul was, and had wars going on in his members, battles between his flesh and spirit. In fact, he said on different occasions things like, "Oh wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

Here's that verse:
"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
(Romans 7:21-25 KJV)

Here is how we are cleansed. I like to use Les Feldick, because he explains things so well:
www.havefaith.org

Colossians 3:13

"Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: (and we’re going to, because we’re human. We’re going to have differences of opinion. We’re going to have some unhappy situations, but don’t let it destroy your relations.

And if you have a quarrel,) even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye."

Now what does that tell you? We’re forgiven, we’re totally forgiven, and I don’t have to go back everyday and say, "Oh God forgive me." That’s all done, it was done at the cross.

A lot of people can’t quite agree with me on that, and that’s all right, but forgiveness is a done deal. Now I know we have to still recognize our sins, and see them as God does. And I think we have to ask God for cleansing, and my whole approach to that is, the night that the Lord was washing Peter’s feet. He came to Peter and what did Peter say?

John 11:8-10

"Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10. Jesus saith to him, he that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit and ye are clean, but not all.

Peter had already been saved. He’d had his bath already, but by virtue of walking from that bath house to his home in the ancients, the streets were fixity, and before he could go into his own home he would have to wash his feet.

Well the picture of course is where we are. We’ve been saved, we’re forgiven, we’re cleansed, but we’re still in this old world, and as we go though this world our feet are getting dirty, and so what do we need? Cleaning!

We don’t need forgiveness, that’s all done, but we need cleansing, and how do we cleanse? I just told somebody on the phone yesterday. How do you wash a strainer? A gravy strainer or a tea strainer, how do you wash it? You certainly can’t run a piece of cloth through every little opening, so how do you wash a strainer? Oh you just swish it through the water, isn’t that right? You just simply cleanse it with the washing of water.

Now that’s what Paul uses in Ephesians:
Ephesians 5:26-27

26: to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word,

27: and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

And this is what we have to do. We get daily cleansing, by the washing of the water, but what does Paul say the water is? The Word of God! Do you see that? Boy isn’t that beautiful,? We don’t have to come crawling to God every time we do something that is wrong, and plead that He forgive us. He must get tired of that, and tells us, "I’ve forgiven you!"

But we do need cleansing. We have to see our sin as He sees it and then be cleansed from it by the Word of God.

Ephesians 5:26-27

26: to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word,

27: and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

And this is what we have to do. We get daily cleansing, by the washing of the water, but what does Paul say the water is? The Word of God! Do you see that? Boy isn’t that beautiful,? We don’t have to come crawling to God every time we do something that is wrong, and plead that He forgive us. He must get tired of that, and tells us, "I’ve forgiven you!"

I have made that mistake so many times, when I feel terrible about the way I've handled the day I will go to God seeking forgiveness.

I'll sometimes feel like my sin is so bad that He has to hear me apologize again and again. And even after I've sought forgiveness, I won't be able to forgive myself, and I'll ask again.

So many times I have forgotten that He has already removed it as far as the east is from the west.

Thank you so much for reminding me of the Peter/ feet washing story. I had forgotten about that. Your post really helped me today.

:)

"Thank you so much for reminding me of the Peter/ feet washing story. I had forgotten about that. Your post really helped me today."

Oh, that's just wonderful! I love to see members of the body of Christ helping each other. As much as we disagree about, there is much more that we do hold in common. God love you, LJM and Bethany.

Bobby,
You bring such a smile to my face! Thank you for your kind words!

:)

I have made that mistake so many times, when I feel terrible about the way I've handled the day I will go to God seeking forgiveness.

I'll sometimes feel like my sin is so bad that He has to hear me apologize again and again. And even after I've sought forgiveness, I won't be able to forgive myself, and I'll ask again.

Posted by: Bethany at February 26, 2008 9:42 AM

This is only my humble opinion, and from a Catholic perspective. . . I think your reaction is a normal part of human nature. If we didn't feel guilty when we did something wrong, that could be a sign of a bigger problem.

One of the positive aspects of confession, is that you are able to physically talk to someone. It makes our admission of guilt, and God's forgiveness more "real" in our minds, and let's us know that we are truly forgiven. We are required to confess mortal sins as Catholics, but may also confess smaller sins, which is beneficial for the reasons I just stated. It can be a very comforting experience.

Praise the Lord, JLM. I don't have time to discuss much today, but I'll check out Les Feldick's website. Unfortunately, I don't get his TV show here, though.

HIs "questions and answers" book looks pretty cool!

Bobby,
I don't get his show here either. I think you can listen to his radio program live, though. For me, it's between 1:00 & 1:30. I don't get a chance to listen to it much.

Yes, I think he's great. My dad lent me the questions and answers book, and I just can't seem to get enough of it. I can't tell you how many times while reading it I went, OHHHHH! Now I get it!

This one was one of my favorites (after Revelation, of course!)

http://havefaith.org/new_page_14a.htm
I never understood the whole hell, hades, Paradise thing until I read that. WOW!

I told my dad he wasn't getting the book back! lol. He ordered another one for himself! I think there's some more topics on other things that can be ordered from his site, but I haven't done that yet.

However, the book is all there online. It's exactly the same. I like to cuddle up with a good book, though, not sit hunched over at a computer!

Janet,
I agree! I think confessing sins by mouth does makes it more real and is important to confirm the acknowledgement. Confession by mouth has been used alot in the bible as something that needs to be done along with what you feel in your heart. For example:

Romans 10:10

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Although we disagree on who we confess them to, confessing them shows that we are aware of them and that we want to change.

Bethany,

You say that sometimes you feel guilty after doing something wrong. And then you confess your sins, either to another person or to God. Why are you confessing? What are you expecting to get out of telling God the wrongs that you have done if it isn't forgiveness?

And if it is forgiveness, then how do you reconcile that with JLM's theory that we don't need forgiveness?

From where I sit, it seems like I can do anything I want and not worry, not say I'm sorry, not confess anything, cuz that was all taken care of.

So where is the guilt coming from? Surely, if I have been forgiven ahead of time, there would be no need to feel guilty? See what I'm saying?

As far as the body sinning but not the spirit, the mind is what chooses to do something sinful. The body does not act of it's own accord. So when I give into temptation, I am consciously choosing, with my spirit, to allow my body to sin.

Therefore my heart, spirit, mind AND body have all affronted God. In my church, this requires asking Him to forgive me.

Who's that pastor guy that was married to Tammy Faye Baker? When he (I can't remember if he cheated on her or with funds) sinned, did he need to ask God for forgiveness? Or did he say, "HEY my body sinned, but not my spirit, and since Jesus died for my sins, I don't need to say I'm sorry and I sure don't need to ask forgiveness! Already did that when I professed my faith in Jesus!"

Bethany,
You say that sometimes you feel guilty after doing something wrong. And then you confess your sins, either to another person or to God. Why are you confessing? What are you expecting to get out of telling God the wrongs that you have done if it isn't forgiveness?

Absolutely.

And if it is forgiveness, then how do you reconcile that with JLM's theory that we don't need forgiveness?

We do need forgiveness, but if we have repented, confessed our sins, He is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteous.
When we sin after having been saved, we absolutely should feel guilty when we do wrong- that is our conscience - the part of us that is without sin- telling us that we are giving in to our flesh. After sinning, we must still seek forgiveness of the people who we have hurt on earth, and we should turn away from those sins, and read the Bible to keep ourselves from sinning again (thy Word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee).
Asking forgiveness from God is not a bad thing- it is good to tell him we're sorry. But we must also remember that He has already forgiven us for all our sins, past and present, when we asked Him to so long ago. We can't expect Him to forgive us again for something that has already been forgiven. Does that make sense the way I am trying to explain it? I hope so.

From where I sit, it seems like I can do anything I want and not worry, not say I'm sorry, not confess anything, cuz that was all taken care of.

No, actually Paul speaks about that very thing, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!

Here is the entire chapter, so that you can understand the context of it (I'm posting it in another translation so it will be easier to understand- I hope this translation is a good one):

1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? 3 Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death? 4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.

5 Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was. 6 We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. 7 For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. 8 And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him. 9 We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. 10 When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God. 11 So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.

So where is the guilt coming from? Surely, if I have been forgiven ahead of time, there would be no need to feel guilty? See what I'm saying?

The guilt comes from the part of us that is perfect and holy, our spirit which was transformed when we were born again. Our conscience. The holy Spirit convicting our heart and telling us to turn around and do the right thing.

As far as the body sinning but not the spirit, the mind is what chooses to do something sinful. The body does not act of it's own accord. So when I give into temptation, I am consciously choosing, with my spirit, to allow my body to sin.

The Bible says that our reborn spirit cannot sin. We can sin with our flesh but not with our spirit.
I don't understand it completely- I just trust that God meant what He said about it ,and I leave it at that.

Who's that pastor guy that was married to Tammy Faye Baker? When he (I can't remember if he cheated on her or with funds) sinned, did he need to ask God for forgiveness? Or did he say, "HEY my body sinned, but not my spirit, and since Jesus died for my sins, I don't need to say I'm sorry and I sure don't need to ask forgiveness! Already did that when I professed my faith in Jesus!"

He absolutely should have asked forgiveness of those who he hurt. He should have turned around, and if he was saved he was forgiven of this sin by God but it doesn't mean that the natural consequences of his sins won't come about, and it doesn't mean that people will forgive him. People aren't the ones who died on the cross for his sins...since Jesus did, if he was truly reborn of the spirit, he will feel extreme remorse for his actions and he will indeed repent and turn away from it and make amends to fix what harm he did by sinning.

But as for his accountability to God, death is his final penalty for those sins.

So where is the guilt coming from? Surely, if I have been forgiven ahead of time, there would be no need to feel guilty? See what I'm saying?

Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Before Christ came to fulfill the law, God's commandments were written on tablets of stone. When Christ fulfilled the law, God's laws would be written on our hearts. The first covenant was temporal. Christ's covenant is everlatsting. When we accept Jesus into our lives, we live in Him, and He in us. When we sin, or go against what He wishes for us, we feel badly about it because He is in us, and His laws are written into our hearts and minds. Things that are not of God will always cause conflict within a believer because we have Christ in us, thus causing the feeling of guilt, remorse, etc.

And if it is forgiveness, then how do you reconcile that with JLM's theory that we don't need forgiveness?

From where I sit, it seems like I can do anything I want and not worry, not say I'm sorry, not confess anything, cuz that was all taken care of.

Oh, absolutely not! Yes, we do need forgiveness! That comes when we become believers. Jesus' blood was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, and by His blood, we are completely forgiven.

I like to equate love for our own children to the above. We love them so much. (God loves us more) No matter what our kids do, we have already forgiven them because we know that it's in their nature to do the wrong things. We forgive them before they even do it. However, we do want them to confess what they have done to us, so we can talk about it and they can grow, mature, learn from their mistakes, and pass this wisdom down to the next generation.

When I don't understand something about God's love for me, I try to sustitute the love I have for my child to the love that God has for me. What I am blown away by, is that God loves me more than I can imagine, and more than I could ever think of loving my child.

Asking forgiveness from God is not a bad thing- it is good to tell him we're sorry.

But saying you are sorry is not the same as asking forgiveness. Doesn't it seem silly to you to ask forgiveness for something that you have already been forgiven for?

You see? I think where we differ is that every time I sin, I believe I offend God and need to ask His forgiveness for the sin I have committed.

I think you see His death as a "pass" on needing forgiveness and I see His death as a "guarantee" of being forgiven when I ask...

I think before He died I was not guaranteed this forgiveness. I would have to "do" something. Now all I have to due is ask.

But like with my kids, saying sorry isn't always enough. Sometimes they still need a time out or to be grounded. I forgive them, but they still need to pay some price.

Purgatory to me (us) is not a punishment so much as a way to purify ourselves. While I don't look forward to the unpleasantness of it, I DO look forward to the preparation I will need to be so pure, so clean, "perfect", so that I can stand in front of Him.

Think of your wedding day. You were meeting your bridegroom at the altar. Didn't you have your hair done, and your nails and your dress and everything "just perfect" to meet him? This is how I want to be for Jesus when I meet Him. The church (me) IS His bride. And as a bride, I want to look (be) perfect for the wedding day! Sure the curlers hurt, and the shoes pinched...but it was all worth it. Purgatory will also have it's down side, but when it's over, I will be READY to meet my bridegroom.

Paragraph #4

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

In these passages, Jesus’ thoughts pass from heaven to the glorious day of His second coming, and He warns that He may come back to a sleeping world in the dead of night (verse 38). Blessed are the faithful who are ready to welcome their returning Lord.

Luke 12:38-40
38And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

39And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

40Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Luke 12:41-48 (KJV)

41Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

42And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Verses 41-48, Here is the parable of the servant and the master, which is meant for every Christian. But degrees in talent and position entail corresponding degrees in responsibility. Fearful is the warning here for faithless pastors. The faithless will all go to hell. There is a belief that there are "degrees" in hell, due to these verses, where a pastor of a church, who is misleading the people in it, will have a higher degree of punishment or "heat" in hell, than the unfaithful that were led there because of the pastor. It is definately a fearful warning for pastors to make sure that they are heeding God's word and will so they don't lead the "sheep" astray.

But like with my kids, saying sorry isn't always enough. Sometimes they still need a time out or to be grounded. I forgive them, but they still need to pay some price.

Absolutely! I had a child out of wedlock! I know that God loves me very much, but I have definately been disciplined by Him for that! I chose to not go His way, and I am reaping what I have sowed. I have told Him that I am very sorry, and I know that He already forgave me. He already knew I was going to do that.

God has been there every waking moment with me throughout these very tough years, but it hasn't been easy. That I think is the discipline part...not following His ways and having a more difficult time getting through life because of my choice not to follow Him. He forgave me already because He already knew what I was going to do, and His love and mercy for me continues.

I definately learned from that experience, and have passed down what I have learned, and STRESSED it with my child, so that he can learn from my mistake of not following God's ways.

sorry...I forgot to italicize the first paragraph in the 7:53 pm post above. The first paragraph was from mk...

Purgatory to me (us) is not a punishment so much as a way to purify ourselves. While I don't look forward to the unpleasantness of it, I DO look forward to the preparation I will need to be so pure, so clean, "perfect", so that I can stand in front of Him.

Think of your wedding day. You were meeting your bridegroom at the altar. Didn't you have your hair done, and your nails and your dress and everything "just perfect" to meet him? This is how I want to be for Jesus when I meet Him. The church (me) IS His bride. And as a bride, I want to look (be) perfect for the wedding day! Sure the curlers hurt, and the shoes pinched...but it was all worth it. Purgatory will also have it's down side, but when it's over, I will be READY to meet my bridegroom.

not yelling, but shouting it from the rooftops....YOU ALREADY ARE!!!

You have been perfected through Him already!

Hebrews 10:14

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

You accepted his offering, right? You ARE perfected FOR EVER! You have been sanctified by His blood! Isn't that GREAT NEWS! That is Gospel of Jesus Christ! WOW!

Paragraph #5

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

Bethany explained it beautifully in her February 26, 2008 8:25 AM post.

I first understood it (finally) after reading this about a year ago.

http://havefaith.org/new_page_14a.htm

Honestly, it really helped!

Paragraph #6

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

1 Corinthians 15:29-30
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

Mk, this is one of the most disputed verses in the bible. It has so many translations and commentaries. I haven’t studied it in depth myself, to be honest, but while studying it for approximately 3 hours, I believe that the commentary below best matches the way that I feel about that verse:

15:29 “Else what shall they do who are baptized for the dead? Paul again returns to the argument for the resurrection. This passage is difficult, and has received almost as many interpretations as there have been commentators. Some have held that there was a custom of baptizing living persons for the benefit of persons who had died without baptism. Had that custom existed, Paul would have rebuked it. It did arise afterwards, as an abuse from the misinterpretation of this passage, among the followers of Cerinthis, and, in our times, of Joseph Smith. I will try to make clear its meaning: (1) All the Corinthians were baptized (Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.). (2) Their baptism was a planting in the likeness of the burial of Christ, and in the likeness of his resurrection (Romans 6:4-5 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:).

They were in, and raised from, a watery tomb. (3) Their baptism in the likeness of the death and resurrection of Christ was in hope of their own resurrection from the dead through Christ's resurrection. ( Huper Nekroon, for, or on account of the dead, with the exception of resurrection from the dead.) But if Christ has not risen, and the dead rise not, this memorial and emblematic burial has no meaning. Why, then, are they baptized for the dead ? that is, for the sake of their own resurrection from the dead. This interpretation harmonizes better with Paul's argument than any I have seen.”

http://pnt.biblecommenter.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

Although I don’t read the Maccabees, I’ll bring up this commentary. I thought it to be interesting:

2nd Maccabees 12:38-46, “Judas rallied his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the week was ending, they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath there. On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs. But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jew to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain. They all therefore praised the ways of the LORD, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deeds might be blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among the soldiers, amounting to 2000 silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to raise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who have gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.”

Footnote:
From the New American Bible; The New Catholic Translation; With Study Helps [2]: “This is the earliest statement of the doctrine that prayers (v 42) and sacrifices (v 43) for the dead are beneficial. The statement is made here, however, only for the purpose of proving that Judas believed in the resurrection of the just (2 Mc 7, 9, 14, 23, 36). That is, he believed in that expiation could be made for certain sins of otherwise good men-soldiers who had given their lives for God’s cause. Thus, they could share in the resurrection. His belief was similar to, but not quite the same as, the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.”

The New Catholic Edition of the Holy Bible translated from the Latin Vulgate. The Old Testament Douay Version[3] renders verse 40 as “And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia.”

Footnotes:
“Ver. 40. Of the donaries: I.e., of the offerings which had been hung up in the temples of the idols, which they had taken away when they burnt the port of Jamnia, ver. 9, contrary to the prohibition of the law, Deut. 7, 25.”
“Ver. 45. With godliness: Judas hoped that these men who died fighting for the cause of God and religion, might find mercy: either because of ignorance of sin or through repentance at death.”
“Ver. 46. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead: a clear proof of the practice of praying for the dead under the old law, which was then strictly observed by the Jews, and consequently could not be introduced at that time by Judas, their chief and high priest, if it had not been always their custom.”

The Vatican approved footnotes are clear in stating that the text does not speak of Purgatory, only of praying for the dead. Likewise, Fr. Pat McCloskey states, “Some people have seen this story as biblical justification for the teaching on purgatory. That certainly overstates the author’s intention. If, however, those Jewish soldiers did something wrong by wearing pagan amulets, why offer sacrifices on their behalf?”[4] Fr. McCloskey does two things for us; he admits that to refer to this text as a Purgatory proof text is faulty. Maybe unwittingly, he points out the poor nature of non-inspired, non-Biblical books in stating, “If…those Jewish soldiers did something wrong…why offer sacrifices on their behalf.” First of all, there are no ifs about it, the text is clear “the law forbids the Jew to wear” the amulets. Secondly, “They all therefore praised the ways of the LORD, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden” first they rejoice in God’s justice but then they offer sacrifices on the behalf of those whom God has justly slain.

Note that Judas’ actions were holy and pious “if”, he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who have gone to rest in godliness. The question is; can idolaters who have been rightly slain by God be referred to as having gone to rest in godliness? By no means, they were doing that which the law of God forbids. Also, these men were not as the footnote states, “otherwise good men-soldiers who had given their lives for God’s cause.” They were not fighting for God’s cause since the text admits that they were worshipping the idols of Jamnia. They might have been fighting for the spoils of war as an employment but they were not fighting for God’s cause. This text is not applicable to Purgatory because the dead had committed mortal sin. The Catholic Catechism #1035 states, “Immediately after death the soul of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell.” Therefore, they did not go to Purgatory and no amount of money could be offered for them in order to buy their way out of hell. This is why Catholic apologists will rely on pure guesswork in stating that they might have repented right before they died. We are not to base doctrines on assumptions.

In order to support prayer for the dead, Catholic apologists often claim that Jews pray for their dead. However, a distinction must be made between a Biblical practice and a secular tradition. Rabbi Abba Hillel Silver, who was for many decades one of America’s foremost spiritual leaders states, “No prayers to or for the dead are ordained in the Bible, no sacrifices to the dead, no ancestor worship, and no prescribed rites of sepulture...Judaism opposes the cult of the dead even as it opposes the cult of nature.”[5] It is also important to note that in the 9th century AD at the Jewish Council of Jamnia the cannon of the Jewish Bible was formalized and it is exactly the same as the Protestant Bible, it excludes Maccabees and the other apocrypha.

Some things that are unique to this text and which proves it false is that the soldiers pray for the forgiveness of the sins of the dead; something found no where else in the entire Bible. Judas took up a collection, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice for the dead; something found nowhere else in the entire Bible. He is said to have made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from their sin—something found nowhere else in the entire Bible. Particularly poignant is the very fact that not such prescription is offered in any sense whatsoever in the Torah, in the Law which is very detailed and specific instructions regarding various sorts of offerings for sin—yet, there is not one single mention of the concept of prayer, or sacrifice, or alms, for the dead.
http://lifeanddoctrinepurgatory.blogspot.com/

Again, I don't read the Maccabees, but this commentary with footnotes did make me think about it.

Paragraph #7

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

The actual verse reads:

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Taken in full context, it reads:

Philippians 2:5-11

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

There is power and glory in the name of Jesus. He is exalted above all. Every knee shall bow to Him and every tongue will confess that He is Lord. I believe that “under the earth” is the place of torment. Back to the previous link that I posted, http://havefaith.org/new_page_14a.htm
will better describe the people that are there and that yes, even they will bow their knees and confess with their tongues that Jesus Christ is Lord. They will forever be absent from Him. I believe that’s what hell will be like for many there. They will know of God, want God, be within arms reach of God, but never get to God.

Paragraph #8

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

The actual verse reads: (KJV)

2 Timothy 1:16-18

16The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:

17But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.

18The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

And the NIV:

16May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

Both translations refer to the “house” of Onesiphorus, not the person.

“This was one of the saddest things in Paul’s life. In Ephesus, where Paul had done his greatest work, and where almost the whole city turned to Christ, the false teachers had so gotten the upper hand that they were able to make capital out of Paul’s arrest and turn the church against him at the time when he needed their love and sympathy the most.” (Halley’s Bible Handbook, page 767)

The false teachers that Paul was upset about (household of Onesiphorus), Paul hoped the Lord will show them mercy in that day. This refers back to my previous post, where I explained this:

Luke 12:41-48 (KJV)

41Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

42And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Verses 41-48, Here is the parable of the servant and the master, which is meant for every Christian. But degrees in talent and position entail corresponding degrees in responsibility. Fearful is the warning here for faithless pastors.

The faithless will all go to hell. There is a belief that there are "degrees" in hell, due to these verses, where a pastor of a church, who is misleading the people in it, will have a higher degree of punishment or "heat" in hell, than the unfaithful that were led there because of the pastor. It is definately a fearful warning for pastors to make sure that they are heeding God's word and will so they don't lead the "sheep" astray.

The "house" of Onesiphorus did just that, and it broke Paul's heart.

You have been perfected through Him already!

Not shouting it from the rooftops, just saying.

No I'm not. I am far from perfect.

Sorry JLM,

I have read everything you wrote, and all I can say is that it only confirmed what I belive. Every knee shall bend under the earth (hell), IN the Earth (purgatory) and in heaven.

I do read Maccabees, and find that to be a compelling passage. My understanding is that Luther didn't like how clearly it pointed to purgatory and that that is why he eliminated it.

As he did James.

I still hold that Abraham could not compassionately have asked for mercy on his brother, because he could show no compassion if her were in hell. There is no compassion in hell.

Jesus descended into hell, simply means he descended into death. Not the "eternal fire."

That was interesting tho about paradise.

JLM,

And then of course there are these:

II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.
Posted by: mk at February 25, 2008 1:20 PM

JLM and Bethany,

Try to understand my confusion here...

On one hand you say, we are perfect, we are forgiven...in the other you say that when you sin, you ask God to forgive you.

On the one hand you say that you look to no one but the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture and on the other you admit that you are not fluent in Hebrew, Latin, Greek or Aramaic.

On the one hand you say we shouldn't look to others for explanations but instead rely on the Holy Spirit, and then quote Les Feldick for explanations.

On the one hand you say that the bible is your total source of information and on the other you follow Luther and Calvin, men who completely changed the accepted view of Christianity that had been held for 1500 years. You reject purgatory, the Eucharist, Confession, the priesthood, Peters' Chair and the 7 sacraments based on a "MAN'S" new version of the "church"...

There is no way that you read the bible, knowing nothing of Luther, and all on your own came to the conclusions that you did.

I on the other hand, admit my ignorance, lack of multi languages and am true to the teachings of Jesus as passed on, unchanaged, for two thousand years, that are found only in the Catholic church.

I can freely quote those more knowledgable than my self because I have admitted that I am not qualified to understand scripture at it's deepest level. I accept, unchanged, what the church has taught since the first word of Genesis was written.

I look to Aquinas, and Iraneus, and Augustine and Origen, men who were "there" and who had access to the apostles, as opposed to a man that became disgruntled with the church and set about changing it to suit his tastes.

I believe that ONLY God is perfect, and that as such, His death allowed me the OPPORTUNITY to become perfected, by following Him, and following His ways. I admit that much work will need to be done on me in order to stand before Him. This is why there is no contradiction in my asking Him for Forgiveness.

So unless and until you can show me that you are following Christ, and not Luther, I have a very hard time accepting the things that you say.

Every interpretation that you give of scripture is protestant, meaning it came from a man, not Jesus.

I too get my interpretations from men, but I admit it, and I said earlier, the men I accept my interpretations from were "THERE"...

Mk, in all kindness I think that there were a lot more reasons than just purgatory that Macabees was not considered to be inspired of God... there was a lot of consideration done to make sure that it was divinely inspired or not. I know that at least one of the reasons that it was found to not be inspired by God is that it actually commends suicide in 2 Macabees 14:39-46 .... Here is the passage. I was surprised to read that it says that the man was showing manly courage by killing himself, especially in such a manner. Can you help me understand how you look at it?

39
Nicanor, to show his detestation of the Jews, sent more than five hundred soldiers to arrest him.
40
He thought that by arresting such a man he would deal the Jews a hard blow.
41
But when these troops, on the point of capturing the tower, were forcing the outer gate and calling for fire to set the door ablaze, Razis, now caught on all sides, turned his sword against himself,
42
preferring to die nobly rather than fall into the hands of vile men and suffer outrages unworthy of his noble birth.
43
In the excitement of the struggle he failed to strike exactly. So while the troops rushed in through the doors, he gallantly ran up to the top of the wall and with manly courage threw himself down into the crowd.
44
But as they quickly drew back and left an opening, he fell into the middle of the empty space.
45
Still breathing, and inflamed with anger, he got up and ran through the crowd, with blood gushing from his frightful wounds.
46
Then, standing on a steep rock, as he lost the last of his blood, he tore out his entrails and flung them with both hands into the crowd, calling upon the Lord of life and of spirit to give these back to him again. Such was the manner of his death.

Obviously, I am new to this book, but I do see it as contradictory to the principles of the Bible, which says, in 1 Cor 16-17, "16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

I don't see how if God tells us not to damage our temple or to defile it, would say that it was a courageous act of this man to totally destroy his temple. Do you see where I am coming from?

JLM and Bethany,
Try to understand my confusion here...
On one hand you say, we are perfect, we are forgiven...in the other you say that when you sin, you ask God to forgive you.

MK, it is like JLM said before. We are forgiven, in the sense that nothing we do can ever take away our salvation. Yes, we can sin. But we do not have to, because we are not slaves to it anymore. I hope this makes it a little easier to understand. "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

On the one hand you say that you look to no one but the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture and on the other you admit that you are not fluent in Hebrew, Latin, Greek or Aramaic.

The Holy Spirit guides us, and we have to listen and study to see whether something contradicts with what the Bible clearly says or not. I have concordances freely available all over the internet where I can see the greek, hebrew, Latin, and Aramaic roots of words if I need this help.
I think you misunderstand when you think I say that we don't need anyone else to tell us what the Bible says. That isn't what I mean. We do need others insight on the Bible, but we have the responsibility to take what they have said, compare it to the scripture, and see whether it adds up, and is consistent with the scripture. If what they're saying is not consistent with the scripture, and if it contradicts what the Bible says, then we should be aware of that.
There is much good in sharing our own insights with others and learning from each other. Others may be able to point out something in the Bible that we have never noticed before. But we should NEVER take someone's word over what the Bible clearly says. If they are saying something that contradicts the Bible, then it is not right.
It has to add up with the Bible. "Let God be true, but every man a liar"

On the one hand you say that the bible is your total source of information and on the other you follow Luther and Calvin, men who completely changed the accepted view of Christianity that had been held for 1500 years. You reject purgatory, the Eucharist, Confession, the priesthood, Peters' Chair and the 7 sacraments based on a "MAN'S" new version of the "church"...

Just because we follow parts of what Martin Luther and John Calvin wrote, doesn't mean that we agree with everything they said or did. We compare each thing they said to the scripture. Anything they said which was compared to scripture and adds up, is worth listening to. Anything they say which compared to scripture does not add up, is false.

There is no way that you read the bible, knowing nothing of Luther, and all on your own came to the conclusions that you did.

I don't know what that means? I don't know that much about Luther unfortunately, because I didn't pay much attention in History in school (I was homeschooled and it was part of my schooling.)
I do remember that he nailed his 95 thesis on the wall, but I never paid attention to what they were, and that's basically all I know about him.
I should study more about him so that I could discuss this issue a little better.

I on the other hand, admit my ignorance, lack of multi languages and am true to the teachings of Jesus as passed on, unchanaged, for two thousand years, that are found only in the Catholic church.

I admit my ignorance too, Marykay. I believe that the Bible is the source of truth, not myself.

I can freely quote those more knowledgable than my self because I have admitted that I am not qualified to understand scripture at it's deepest level. I accept, unchanged, what the church has taught since the first word of Genesis was written.

I am not qualified either, however, the Holy Spirit is, and the Bible assures me that the holy Spirit can and will teach me. And yes, that includes through preachers and teachers, who teach in accordance with the Bible:
"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Let me also add that I think the Bible is written in such a way that even a child should be able to understand it.

Just wanted to lighten the mood a little though- I LOVE YOU GIRLS!!!

Bethany,

What I mean by following Luther is that every protestant interpretation of the bible is because of Him. Whether you realize it or not, you are following HIS interpretations.

Can you give me an example of where you would disagree with either Luther or Calvin.

And while you can show me that the bible doesn't expressly say the word purgatory, you haven't given me anything that definitively negates it.

The same with the Eucharist. Or confession. Or Peter's Chair. Or the sacraments. Or the priesthood.

I can and have given you the biblical references for all of these things, then shown that it was accepted church teaching for 1500 years, and still you say, no, You know better. I just don't get it.

Can you give me an example of where you would disagree with either Luther or Calvin.

Well, you said that Luther tried to remove James from the Bible. That his followers put it back. Obviously, not only do I disagree with him there if this is what he did, but his followers must have as well.

I am just starting to learn about John Calvin, so I really don't know as of yet.

I don't base my beliefs on either of these men, but soley on the Bible itself.

And while you can show me that the bible doesn't expressly say the word purgatory, you haven't given me anything that definitively negates it.

The Bible doesn't say anything about the rapture either, but there are those who will say that certain verses imply it is going to happen in our near future. I don't agree that it is a Biblical belief...I believe that Jesus meant it when He said, "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." and "this generation shall not pass, till all things be fulfilled" (Mat 24:34).

Theres a lot more to that, but I can tell you, it was very easy to see "rapture" in passages like Matthew 24 when I went along with what the church taught me, as opposed to simply taking the Bible at face value. It was very easy to say, it is there, even though it wasn't. Not for us, in this day and age.

Do you see what I'm trying to get at ?

Absolutely. We don't accept the rapture either. But you can see how easy it would be. The idea of the rapture came from men messing with the accepted teachings.

Church fathers accepted purgatory. They did not accept this rapture theory.

I really wish you read more Catholic interpretations. Let me know what you think.

Especially the ones on the Eucharist, Confession and the priesthood.

I bet you'd be surprised to find that you agreed with much of it.

Accepted teachings which disagreed with the Bible, and contradicted the Bible, Marykay.

The idea was invented as a joke by some guy (can't remember his name now), and then someone took it seriously, I believe, and it took off from there.
Scofield wrote about it in his commentaries. People started trusting in the word of man, rather than adhering to the word of God.
This was the mistake, Marykay.

2 Timothy 4:3-5: “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”

We are supposed to :
“Holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict” (Titus 1:9).

My point was not about the rapture contradicting the teachings of man, it was about it contradicting the plain and clear word of God...that's what I'm trying to get at.

Just as I feel that purgatory is based on an assumption, and based on some verses, which do not specifically support it.

That is how I feel the rapture idea was supported too. Believe me, those who believe the Rapture is true, they can cite lots of verses which -out of their context- can definitely appear to mean what they want it to mean.

Purgatory is not expressed in the Bible clearly, yet the idea that we die and immediately are either with the Lord or in Hell is expressed in the Bible many times.

I simply cannot trust that a person's teachings are correct unless they add up with the scripture. I just can't. The Bible is the ONLY book that I feel is absolutely true, every part. No other book can compare.

If I read someone's commentary, if I listen to a preacher, I ALWAYS compare what they have said with the scripture because it is the only way that I will know for sure that they are on the right track. If I allow my desires to control what I believe the Bible says, then I would be wrong to do so.

Arg, I know probably I have a lot of people angry with me now...I just want you to know how I feel./ I promise no offense is intended. I love you all.

I still hold that Abraham could not compassionately have asked for mercy on his brother, because he could show no compassion if her were in hell. There is no compassion in hell.

I know there is weeping and gnashing of teeth and that the worm dieth not, and all of that, but I do not remember a passage (but I definitely could have missed it) about there being no compassion or remorse in hell. Are you absolutely sure about that?

One thing that bothers me, MK, and this is what scares me about what Catholics believe. (I hope you will never take personal offense to how I feel about the beliefs of the Catholic church).

You basically believe that pretty much everyone is going to be burning in an intense fire, no matter what. That is, unless somehow they have worked hard enough and been good enough people that they can go straight to heaven without going to purgatory (as Bobby said in his 9:04 post). (and who can do that, since the Bible says that even if you keep the whole law perfectly, but offend in one point, you're guilty of the whole law?)

If I believed that purgatory was in my future after death, even if later I would be rewarded by Heaven, I would be absolutely TERRIFIED to die. Because by ONE sin, I am guilty of them ALL.

Jesus promised me that I will have no more condemnation. That there will be no punishment, no need for more cleansing, that his payment was sufficient for all of that. But purgatory teaches that his grace is not sufficient to cleanse us from all sin, but that we must be purged after we die still to remove our attachment to sin, from what I have learned this last week.

I would be absolutely scared out of my mind if I thought that no matter what I did, if I died before I was able to go to a confession and get rid of some sin I had committed that day, that I would have to go to what is basically Hell, even if it is temporary. That would scare the living daylights out of me.

For God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

If I believed that purgatory and a lake of fire - even just a temporary one- was imminent in my future (and believe me, it would be, because I am no where near perfect- that is, my flesh), I would be scared out of my mind and be terrified of dying. What a scary concept to me!

Can you possibly understand why that view bothers me?

Before yesterday, I actually thought that Catholics believed purgatory was a place where you have to sit around and just wait- just an empty hollow place without God. It was a vague understanding but that is about how much I had known about it.

But now I know that you believe it's a lake of fire..that the sins are literally burned away off of your body, isn't that scary to you?

Bethany & mk,

Ok. I'm a huge believer in the rapture, and am very curious how you would interpret these verses.

I Thessalonians 4:13-17

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

and these:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I've always believed this on the basis of the book of Revelations, that there are three parts to the last days. I believe that God has to pull (rapture) His church (believers) out of the way, first, before He can pour out his wrath (bowls), during the 7-year tribulation. Why would he want to pour his wrath out on believers? We have been perfected by Him? We are clothed in His love. For the rapture to not be "real", would make many verses in the bible seem contradictory to me, IMO.

mk,
I promised you that I would respond to each verse that you posted, and that it will take me a great deal of time to do so. (you added more, now! oh no!)

I do keep my promises, however, if you would like for me to cease my responses, please let me know. I don't want to offend or upset you. I'm not trying to "convert" you, I am simply trying to explain why I believe what I do, according the the scriptures I read.

I must say, though, that I thoroughly enjoy discussing the Word of God. I learn more every time I do so. So for that, I thank you.

Bethany & mk,
Ok. I'm a huge believer in the rapture, and am very curious how you would interpret these verses.
I Thessalonians 4:13-17
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
and these:
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yes! I agree....I don't know exactly how to explain this where you will understand...I'll try though.... I do believe that there is going to be a moment where Jesus gathers us all up in the end. but what I don't believe is that the tribulation period is in our future. I believe that happened in the destruction of Jerusalem.

If I may, can I recommend two books which really helped explain it to me. The books are, "End Times Fiction", and "Last Days Madness", by Gary DeMar. You may not agree with the content of the books, but I would ask that you at least take a look at them to see what you think about them. From my perspective it is very Biblically sound, using comparing scripture with scripture to help understand what the texts in Matthew 24 and others like it mean (those were always the most perplexing verses for me when I was pre-millenialist)

It was very difficult for me at first, to change my mind on these views, because they are what I had been taught all my life. But I had always been confused by the fact that Jesus repeatedly said that all of those tribulations would happen within that generation. I remember asking my mom about it and my pastor, and the only thing they would say, was that "Jesus didn't really mean it like that".

You have no idea how tormented I was whi