And PiP, I asked Mathis about your comment that Expelled had to pay 100 FL students to attend a film screening, and he had no idea what you were talking about, i.e., untrue rumor.

come up with a scientific theory that doesnt start out first with the supernatural

Please...

Their desperation is palpable:
http://getexpelled.com/schools.php

Excellent interview, Jill!!

Oh just to let you know the book was delivered to my home and when I go back I'll look forward to reading it!

What book did you get, Jess? :) I got "On Message".

I got that one too! Can't wait to read it!

I have to admit, that graphic with "stupidity" and stuff is funny... :)

Though I think Stupidity overlaps more with politics because never in my life have I seen more stupid decisions made than those by our state and federal governments.

Cool, Jess! :)

This is really depressing:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1727658,00.html?xid=feed-cnn-topics&iref=werecommend

This is really depressing:

*****************
What was really upsetting to me is how many of those infants had drugs in their systems because the mother was taking drugs - thats a big percentage of what constituted abuse

That poor Mathis guy. On the one had, it sucks that he thinks making a propaganda film is an appropriate way to get his message out. On the other hand, it's hard not to feel a little pity for someone whose religious convictions are so threatened by science.

Mr. Berger:

Here we go again. Another Biblically illiterate person dissing the Bible based on cliched thinking borrowed from "birds of a feather" or should I say other "lambs led to slaughter" rather than on a personal study of it.

I never wrote that you said things, I said that you "implied" them. There's a difference.

My friend, if you were a student of the Bible, you would understand that in the New Testament that Peter had a dream which apart from the purpose of the dream confirming that the Gospel was now to be preached to the Gentile world, that the the requirements of the law, which had no power to save, were now fulfilled by the grace of God because of Jesus Christ's death on the cross. All prohibitons regarding the consumption of unclean meats were lifted. Read the account in the book of Acts. You want to challenge God on that, go ahead.

And the words of the Bible specifically condemn homosexuality, not us. That means that the author of the Bible, who we believe is God, condemns it and if we didn't believe what He said, we would be, well, hypocrites.

Further, anyone, even a liberal who bases his life on natural this and natural that can know that the homosexual act is not natural at all. So where's the consistency of thought in your assertion Mr. Berger? It seems to me that your type constructs a world of chaos and randomness that is at odds with science itself but yet guarantees that science's claim are so irrefutable as to be able to erase from history that God even exists. Further, why would an evolutionst, who believes in the "survival of the fittest", espouse a lifestyle whose proponents have no progeny? Do you want homosexuals to die out Mr. Berger?

If you read the Genesis account Mr. Berger, it explains how God took a cosmos that was in dissarray and chaos and by His word, spoke it into order. Could it be Mr. Berger, that perhaps we just don;t fully understand God's infinte mind and that evolution is a humanly feeble attempt at explaingin something we are incapable of knowing. Ever heard of faith Mr. Berger? The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

You see Mr. Berger, my faith in God, accelerates me light years ahead of any scientist. Why, because by faith I have the infinite mind of Christ and not the fiite mind of a human being.
Yes Mr. Berger, wisdom begins with the fear of God.

And Mr. Berger, if I am a Christian who believes in creation in a literal 6 days, why am I forced to pay taxes to a school system that disses what I believe? Why do I have to spend twice the money to send my kids to schools that teach the truth? Guess I'm just screwed, huh? And that instituonalized intolerance of me is OK with you? But yet you wouldn't have the courage and out of love admonish a homosexual that his lifestyle will lead him to a physical and mental life of pain and anguish and a spiritual life of eternal death? Your type is extrmely hard to understand.

I don't think YEC believes the earth is only 6,000 years old, I think the thought is that it's more like 10,000 years old.

And yes, the Bible can be used as an
excuse to justify or be against anything especially by those that don't study it and refuse to be transformed by it's loving message. You know, people like you. However, the same is true for science which is used to justify that God doesn't exist and therefore, can live life as they see fit making gods of themselves. I would say that's pretty dumb as well.

Your thinking is absurd, inconsistent and intellectually dishonest.

And TR:

You said the Garden of Eden account of creation was a myth, correct? Do you now see where the the belief in the tentative theory of evolution leads to and how it can be so destructive? Because if it is wrong, your statement is utterly stupid beyond description. I am going to predict, that God will have the last laugh on this matter and that the theory of evolution will indeed become a relic on the dung heap of bad science. I predict that now unknown facts will be discovered that will cause a paradigm shift in how science explains life. The theory of evolution is a house of cards and it proponents will someday be pitied as well as those who, "knew not what they do".

HisMan lunkheads like you make all xtians look ignorant illiterate and stupid

TexasRed:

Tell me TR, what key is that chord in? Must be b-flat or perhaps f-minor, but certainly not c-sharp, of course not to be confused with the state of your mind.

You must have a very large mirror though.

Besides "x" implies a variable or unknown. What does "x" mean? Mar, Vene, Croa? You've pretty much lumped a great deal of the world in your use of "x" in front of tians. Perhaps you meant to say garlic nose Italians? Well, that would be quite a good guess and consistent with your support of Boromaniac.

By the way, are you an xan? Or just a wanna be xan? I know, don't mess with xas.

Who or what do you believe in TR? And what's the payoff? Drugs, sex and rock and roll? Or perhaps unresolved hatred of a theist? There's counselors for that kind of stuff you know. However, I'd stay away from the secular ones.

Finally, how I appear to you is of no concern to me for I know in whom I believe. And, my Bible has warned me that I am part of a vast minority anyway.

HisMan, please don't take this as an insult because I don't mean it to be, but I think you are probably one of the more well-versed Christians here and I'm wondering if you can explain something for me?

Is the entire Bible meant to be taken literally? Should you follow all of the instructions inside the Bible?

I know I've heard people argue that Jesus changed things, and some people only take the "rules" of the New Testament, but what are your thoughts on this? Do the rules of the Old Testament also apply?

"If you read the Genesis account Mr. Berger, it explains how God took a cosmos that was in dissarray and chaos and by His word, spoke it into order."

Ah, but does it explain how it got into such dissarrary and chaos to begin with? Was it God's fault, or some other God's fault?

"Further, anyone, even a liberal who bases his life on natural this and natural that can know that the homosexual act is not natural at all."

Which "homosexual act" are you referring to? Kissing? oral sex? anal sex? Straight people do all those "unnatural" things as well.

"And Mr. Berger, if I am a Christian who believes in creation in a literal 6 days, why am I forced to pay taxes to a school system that disses what I believe?"

For the same reason that if you were a Christian who believed the Sun revolved around the Earth you would have to pay taxes to support a school system that taught your kids that you were mistaken in your beliefs. You are also mistaken about the 6 day creation thing. Deal with it.

Actually, homosexuality does appear in nature, particularly in species higher up on the evolutionary line with larger populations who can be easily threatened with disease and famine.

Incidentally, in these populations, infanticide also increases. It seems wanting to kill one's young is not just a human condition...

Jill,

If you haven't noticed already, Mathis is a liar.

http://theframeproblem.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/producers-of-expelled-trying-to-bribe-christian-schools-into-forcing-their-students-to-see-their-movie/

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/a_flop.php

See, they payed schools to send them to the movie; they payed for a screening for legislators, and so far, not much interest.

PiP, I know some people were saying it was going to be the most seen documentary in theaters, or something to that effect... do you know if that's actually held out?

"You haven't heard any complaints by scientists reviewed in the film about that sort of editing."

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2394,Lying-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins

"He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time. "

". Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings. ... Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE."

....not taken out of context? Oh please.

"PiP, I know some people were saying it was going to be the most seen documentary in theaters, or something to that effect... do you know if that's actually held out?"

I can't really make that prediction but I will tell you this:

1. I don't see it doing better than the number one best seller, Farhenheit 9/11, or an Inconvenient Truth.
2. They haven't turned up a whole lot of people in theatres based on personal accounts.
3. They are known for planting people in the audience.
4. They are purposely trying to screen out atheists or who they think will dissent at the pre-screenings. (http://evolvinginkansas.blogspot.com/2008/04/expelled-paranoia-runs-deep-in-tempe-az.html)
5. By the day they are generating more bad publicity.

"Actually they didn't. The biology professors at Pepperdine assure me that their mostly Christian students fully accept the theory of evolution. So who were these people embracing Stein's screed against science? Extras. According to Lee Kats, associate provost for research and chair of natural science at Pepperdine, "the production company paid for the use of the facility just as all other companies do that film on our campus" but that "the company was nervous that they would not have enough people in the audience so they brought in extras. Members of the audience had to sign in and a staff member reports that no more than two to three Pepperdine students were in attendance. Mr. Stein's lecture on that topic was not an event sponsored by the university." And this is one of the least dishonest parts of the film."

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=ben-steins-expelled-review-michael-shermer&sc=rss

Edyt:

No insult taken. One of my un-Christain attribtues is that many times I give what I get. Believe me, the Holy Spirit is always reminding me of that.

There are portions of the Bible that can be taken literally and other portions that are to be taken metaphorically. That is why it is so necessary to study the Bible as a whole balancing it's claims against each other.

For example, the Bible states that there is a literal heaven and a literal hell.

The metaphors for hell are an unquenchable fire, a lake of fire, outer darkness, eternal destruction, etc. Now, do I know everything about hell? Of course not. And to be honest with you I cannot begin to comprehend its horror. But, I know enough that it's a place I want to avoid. Having said that, it would be a huge mistake to assume from a non-literal viewpoint that hell doesn't exist at all. My philosophy of hell is that it is literally all that is separated from God in the eternal realm and I came to that conclusion accepting metaphorical teaching. Therein lies the rub.

Same about heaven. It's described as a place where there's no death, no sufferring, no weeping. A place beyond our ability to imagine. A metaphor describing heaven is a place with many mansions. Now, do I think that heaven looks like Savanah, GA? I don't know that, however, man, I do like the south and wouldn't mind spending an eternity in a place like that.

And the Bible is not a rule book. The law was given to show that we are in a fallen condition and left to our own ends we perish. Christ came so that the requirements of the law could be fulfilled despite the fact that we could not keep the law. Centuries of Jewish history proved that. That's the beauty of Christianity when it says the truth shall set you free. This is why Paul said "all have sinned and fall short of teh glory of God". Not one of us can measure up to God's standard, not any priest, or Pope, or guru, no one.

By the rules of the Old Testament I think you are talking about the Torah? Look the entire OT points to one person Christ. Read Chapter 53 of Isaiah which is a beautiful and heart rending prophecy about Christ written hundreds of years prior.

I think you need to read the Book of Acts and Book of Romans.

The Book of Acts describes the "evolution" (I know) or better said, the transition of God's revelation through the Jews to now being revealed to the the whole world. Focus on Paul's conflict with Peter.

The Book of Romans speaks about God's grace and how faith is the access to that grace, not rule keeping.

God could care less if you are able to keep a set of rules, He already knew you can't ("while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"). He loves you so much He wants to be in an eternal realtionship with you. Now that's something I can get really, really excited about!

Want to understand God's heart and pathos for you, read the Book of Hosea.

I hope this answers your questions. He's knockin' on the door Edyt. Will you answer? Go ahead, He's is one magnificent and awesome God.

Gotta go, Peace.

Also Jill you s hould watch that south park I linked you to.

Hier, don't feel too sorry for him, he is a dishonest man.

Hey Texas Red.... you first

PIP,

Richard Dawkins is on "Real Time with Bill Maher" tonight on HBO. They always have an online session after the show where you can discuss and debate with Bill and the guests. It's on his website.

Hier, don't feel too sorry for him, he is a dishonest man.

Posted by: prettyinpink at April 11, 2008 2:54 PM

I know, I waver back and forth between pity and disgust. Pity for a man who will stoop to the level that he has in attempt to defend what he must think of at heart as a very weak faith, and disgust for his fundamentally dishonest tactics. I've been following this story off and on, and Mathis just comes across as such a weakling.

On the other hand (no offense PIP), personally, I get a kick out of seeing Jill trying to yoke the pro-lifers to the creationists. If they could just get the flat-earthers on board, it would be a trifecta of whatever the opposite of credibility is.

STOP THE DEBATE!

Here's a picture of Ben Stein with Bill Nye the Science Guy on "America's MOST Smartest Model."
http://www.buddytv.com/articles/Image/AMSM/amsm-ep4.jpg

If that doesn't make him an authority on the origin of the species, I just don't know what does...

Also Jill you s hould watch that south park I linked you to.

Posted by: prettyinpink at April 11, 2008 2:50 PM
***********************
I dont think Jills heart could take SOUTHPARK - she might wind up just hyperventillating and keeling over ....

Who or what do you believe in TR? And what's the payoff? Drugs, sex and rock and roll? Or perhaps unresolved hatred of a theist? There's counselors for that kind of stuff you know. However, I'd stay away from the secular ones.

**************
What do I believe HisMan? I believe youre an idiot. Youve convinced me. I dont do drugs - never have. My sex life is none of your business even if youd get off on the details. And yes, I do like rock n roll. Contempt for you and your idiocy is not 'hatred' and has nothing to do with my attitude towards genuine xtians. Youre not one. I have no doubt I know a great deal more about counseling than you could ever hope to know. As I said, lunkheads like you make people think all xtians are ignorant illiterate and stupid.

Hey Texas Red.... you first

Posted by: er19ic75 at April 11, 2008 3:00 PM
********************
And that means what?

Mathis fundamentally misunderstands scientific inquiry in general and evolution in particular, but he's not going to let that stop him from telling us all what the "Darwinists" believe. But why should anyone listen to him?

He did mislead the people he interviewed; does anyone honestly think that people like Richard Dawkins and Eugenie Scott and PZ Myers would have allowed themselves to be used for a cheap propaganda piece that smears evolutionary science using the corpses of Holocaust victims? They thought they were doing a real documentary.

I sent many of these people the questions in advance. What journalists do that?

I'm confused. Is Mathis claiming that this should have been a tipoff for his victims that he's not a real journalist? Is he admitting he's not a real journalist? BTW, according to Scott, it's not unusual for interviewers to give their subjects questions ahead of time.

"The big shock for me is the way the scientific establishment has responded in such a hostile way," said Mathis.

Yeah, I don't know why people would get hostile when you mislead them, misrepresent their life's work, and blame their ideas for the Holocaust. Scientists are just so darned unreasonable that way.

The society we live in, truth is not valued.

...he said, with no apparent irony.

From the original post:

I can tell you anecdotally based on all the different universities and professors I have encountered, my personal belief is you've got thousands upon thousands of scientists and students who look at the evidence and see Darwinism greatly lacking...

How very scientific of Mathis. Ask any scientist what credibility he or she gives anecdotal evidence with no hard statistics to back it up.

No one wants a science teacher teaching religion. What religious people want is an honest discussion in the science class about ID.

This is incredibly disingenuous of him. ID=creationism=religion. There is no science in ID. By definition, its backers want one religion's creation myth discussed in science classes, in a nation founded on the principle of freedom of religion. And they wonder why people object!

They are teaching atheism by default.

No, actually they are teaching science, which has nothing to do with religion, and does not express any opinion on whether god(s) exist or not. Many science teachers are devout Christians who know better than to impose their religion on their students.

Here's the evidence for design.

The bible, a book written by Jews and Christians approximately two thousand years ago, copied and edited in the meantime by monks and church officials with varying agendas. That's it. That is the entire evidence for "intelligent design" aka creationism.

Here are the weaknesses.

There is no physical evidence to support the notion of creationism, whatsoever. None.

Here is the evidence for Darwinism evolution.

Darwin's original theory, based on his observations of live species at the time, has since been confirmed in the fossil record by archaeologists, and in our very genes, by geneticists. There is currently no known evidence that contradicts the theory of evolution. Except the bible.

Here are its weaknesses.

There are gaps in the fossil record. That is to say, that not all expected historical developments of species have been found. Yet. Also, the theory of evolution does not yet account for the origin of life on this planet. But scientists are quite open about this. Nobody claims to know the origin of life, except the bible.

Now decide for yourself.

Hmm. An overwhelming mountain of physical evidence, or the bible? Which is more likely to be accurate about the evolution of life?

Jill, did you ask Mathis why he was so afraid of letting biologist PZ Myers, who was interviewed in the movie, into a screening of Expelled?

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/expelled.php

Or why other biologists have also not been let in?

http://scienceblogs.com/strangerfruit/2008/04/expelled_in_tempe_the_expected.php

One commenter wrote about getting into a screening:
I just got back from the theater and yes there was indeed a screening. I wasn't on the list, but managed to get in anyway. After getting interrogated as to which church I was with and finally approval from the man behind the curtain whom I never saw, I was admitted into the theater just as the movie was starting.

If Expelled and "intelligent design" aren't about trying to get religion taught in science classes, then why is Mathis so interested in which church a potential audience member attends?

Another great quote from an audience member at an Expelled screening, regarding the host of a Q&A session, who identified himself as Stephen Schmidt, a personal friend of the producer:
My favorite question came from the little boy next to me, who asked, "What is your background in science?" Schmidt looked taken aback and said, "Me? I don't have any."

Case closed.

I dont think Jills heart could take SOUTHPARK - she might wind up just hyperventillating and keeling over ...."

LOL you are probably right.

"I know, I waver back and forth between pity and disgust. Pity for a man who will stoop to the level that he has in attempt to defend what he must think of at heart as a very weak faith, and disgust for his fundamentally dishonest tactics. I've been following this story off and on, and Mathis just comes across as such a weakling."

Yeah I know what you mean. He can believe all he wants, but misleading people and lying? Why the need?

"Here's a picture of Ben Stein with Bill Nye the Science Guy on "America's MOST Smartest Model.""

hehehehehe. Also I don't have HBO :((

Ray, she already addressed the Myers thing- by regurgitating the companies' press release.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/lying_by_press_release.php

If Expelled and "intelligent design" aren't about trying to get religion taught in science classes, then why is Mathis so interested in which church a potential audience member attends?

Maybe he wanted a balanced sample group.

Many science teachers are devout Christians who know better than to impose their religion on their students.

It doesn't matter to me how the World came to be, but the intensity of the debate is intriguing. Why are some scientists so threatened by God or "religion". Because they need to be right without a God?

There is no physical evidence to support the notion of creationism, whatsoever. None.

A book - the bible?

Maybe he wanted a balanced sample group.

I am sorry I can't quite tell from the context...are you being serious or ironic? 'Cause if you are being serious, then that is really sad (balance of what, Christian denominations?), but if you are being ironic, it is brilliant!

I can't wait until more reviews come in. It'll be hilarious.

The score thus far:

Scientific American - the movie sucks

Fox News - the movie sucks

Wing Nut Daily - We totally loved it!!

The Bible is not a science textbook, Janet. Nor is creationism backed by ANY science whatsoever.

Remember how we used to think unicorns existed, and then we discovered the narwhals? Well, when midieval Europeans found the tusks, they thought they came from unicorns.

But unicorns don't exist. The tusks did not prove they existed.

And the earth was not created in six days. The Bible does not prove the earth was created in six days.

In other words, feel free to believe in unicorns. (What? They don't exist? Preposterous!)

Hieronymous, Roger Friedman, who is the writer of the review you mention, is a flaming liberal. There is nothing conservative about him.

Good try, though. You got me to look!

The Bible is not a science textbook, Janet. Nor is creationism backed by ANY science whatsoever.

It is a historical document, Edyt.

Big deal, Bethany. We have historical documents from all over the world saying humans came from an egg to vomit to lightning bolts and whatever else anyone could think up at the time. Google "Creation Myths" and see how many different stories there are! All coming from historic documents and paintings and sculptures...

Are they all correct too?

It is a historical document, Edyt.

The vast majority of the world's population is not Christian and would not agree with that assessment of the bible, Bethany. You, Janet, and the rest of you will have to do better than that at providing physical evidence for the veracity of creationism.

Believe me TexasRed, I have absoluteley no interest in your sex life. Now that I think of it I can't imagine anyone who would.

But really, there's gotta be a reason for your hatred of Christians since I have evidence that you hated them before you even started posting on this site.

Tell me, was your daddy an intinerant preacher man?

And Hal, yes I am dealing with this takeover by the looney left. Stay tuned.......daffy.

Hal:

If you don't know what a homosexual act is I suggest you ask any public school educated 3rd grader. They are very good at drawing stick figures to suit your level of aptitude.

I don't expect you to agree with this, Edyt, but:

http://www.carm.org/40_objections/40-4.htm#_1_35

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t003.html

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml

The Holy Bible....The #1 best-selling Book of all-time....more than SIX BILLION sold!!!!

http://home.comcast.net/~antaylor1/bestsellingbooks.html

Praise God!

And, my Bible has warned me that I am part of a vast minority anyway.

Hisman,
I am both proud and humbled to be your sister and stand with you in this vast minority!!!

GREAT posts (as always!)

:)

Ray:

The veracity of creationism????????????

I think I am going to split a side laughing on the floor. This is beyond understanding that a person that can read and write can even ask such a question. This is gross evidence of the failure of our public school system to provide a good education to this generation.

Open the shade, turn off the television, leave the computer screen, go outside, look up, look out. See that tree? See the sky? Smell the air and the cool breeze on your face.

Now if you don't want to do that, take your hand, turn it palm side up. See all those lines called finger prints? They're just a little bit of evidence of the veracity of creationism.
Oh, you're wearing gloves or are those blinders?

My Bible has also warned me about people who would mock the Word of God and His believers:

Jude 1:17-19

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold.

18 They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires."

19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

Open the shade, turn off the television, leave the computer screen, go outside, look up, look out. See that tree? See the sky? Smell the air and the cool breeze on your face.

Now if you don't want to do that, take your hand, turn it palm side up. See all those lines called finger prints? They're just a little bit of evidence of the veracity of creationism.

Hisman, just so I get this right, you are suggesting that because the world is here, God must have created it? And you wonder why a statement like that is controversial?

The fact that the world is here is evidence only that the world is here. Anything about how it came to be, without specific evidence to support it, is pure conjecture.

7:55 is me.

There are portions of the Bible that can be taken literally and other portions that are to be taken metaphorically. That is why it is so necessary to study the Bible as a whole balancing it's claims against each other.

Then how do you know which parts to be taken literally or metaphorically? For example, I've heard people claim that the creation story is a metaphor, while others take it as fact. Who is the authority on the metaphorical/literal aspects of the Bible?

The reason I ask these questions is because I often see Christians doing a sort of "pick and choose" deal with what they believe. (Usually this involves picking out Bible verses to support their point of view, even if another Bible verse directly contradicts it)

Jews, for example, follow the Torah, while most born-again Christians claim Jesus changed the way people were supposed to live their lives.
My question is: Is all of the Bible equally valid? If not, who is the authority about which parts should be taken literally/metaphorically or just left as a historical account?

My question is: Is all of the Bible equally valid? If not, who is the authority about which parts should be taken literally/metaphorically or just left as a historical account?

Edyt,

If you really want to know the answer to this, and I mean this honestly without any sarcasm...you need to do this first:

Acknowledge that Jesus Christ is God; that He came to earth as a man in order to live the sinless life that you cannot live; that He died in your place, so that you would not have to pay the penalty for sin that you deserve.

Confess your past life of sin -- living for yourself and not obeying God.

Admit you are ready to trust Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord.

You may wish to pray something like this: (not this, but something similar!)

Heavenly Father, I know that I have sinned against you and that my sins separate me from you. I am truly sorry. I now want to turn away from my past sinful life and turn to you for forgiveness. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ, died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen

Then, before you pick up the bible to read it, pray for God's wisdom through the Holy Spirit to fill you so that you will understand His word.

Until these things happen, you can ask many, many questions, and get many, many answers and still not understand.

Ephesians 1:17-25

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The reason I ask these questions is because I often see Christians doing a sort of "pick and choose" deal with what they believe. (Usually this involves picking out Bible verses to support their point of view, even if another Bible verse directly contradicts it)

Jews, for example, follow the Torah, while most born-again Christians claim Jesus changed the way people were supposed to live their lives.

Edyt,
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to bombard you..but you did ask! I'm "butting in", I know, so if you would like for me to stop, please let me know!

The Jews do not believe that the Messiah has come yet. They do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and died for their sins. Therefore, they are still living by the Old Testament law. The law could never be followed by anyone perfectly. Jesus was the only One who ever followed the law perfectly. Jesus came to fulfill the law. Thus, born-again Christians believe that Jesus is indeed the Messiah, died for their sins, and rose again the third day. By believing in Him, their sins are cleansed...unlike the Jews that still believe that they need to follow the law in order for their sins to be cleansed.

It is easy to see why the bible would seem to contradict itself. However, it does not. That's why HisMan said that it is important to study the bible as a whole.

Does that make a little sense?

All ID says is that something started the universe in motion.

Most scientists believe in the Big Bang, but the question that remains is what created it? That is the question that those who look at ID are saying. What started the Big Bang? What was behind it? Why did it happen? The Universe and all that is in it is to orderly and complex to be an accident, or happenstance.

As a Christian evolution does not scare me (and I don't believe the earth was created in 6 human days. We are confined by space and time, God is not. God already told us His days are not the same as ours)

Up until the last century and a half, the forefathers of science like Newton, Galileo and Copernicus and so forth were all Christians. They saw science as a way to prove God was active in the world. They saw reason, thought, ability to explore and experiment as a gift from God. They did not view science as being in conflict with Faith.

The debate came when scientists changed direction and decided that humans should replace God and become the Creator. In lies the problem with evolution. It takes the Creator out of creation. And the Theory of Evolution is just that a theory.

I have no problem with that fact that individual species evolve, we see it in how tall we are now compared to 100 years ago. But there is NO evidence of species mating with other species. So I think there is no missing link between apes and people bc we were created seperate.

And yes today's evolutionists are atheists. Their aim is to destroy religion and faith, especially Christianity. They see faith as evil and needs to be destroyed. However, they are losing ground, as Christianity is growing and is the largest faith in the world. Why bc evolution and atheism cannot answer the questions that really matter, who and I, where and who do I belong to and what is my purpose. Those are things we search for our entire lives. God said He has written on everyone's heart a longing to know Him. We just choose to answer that call or ignore it.

Our knowledge and understanding is so limited. We have just begun to see and understand the universe and ourselves. And we will NEVER have all the answers, bc we are not God.

:)

Mathis:

"When you're in a biology department, and 90% of the people are all in agreement, they're all secularist atheists, you just run amuck."

Would anyone find it strange that 90% of people (more, I'd wager!) in the physics and chemistry departments are in agreement on the fundamentals of their disciplines?

Mathis is factually challenged on the "they're all secularist atheists" thing as well. In 2005, Ecklund and Scheitle surveyed scientists at 21 "elite research universities" in the U.S. This is how biologists answered the question, "Which one of the following statements comes closest to expressing what you believe about God?"

"I do not believe in God." 41%
"I do not know if there is a God and there is no way to find out." 29.9%
"I believe in a higher power, but it is not God." 7.7%
"I believe in God sometimes." 4.1%
"I have some doubts, but I believe in God." 10%
"I have no doubts about God's existence." 7.4%

That's 41, 70.9, or 78.6% atheist, depending on your definition. (I'd probably call it 70.9, but would want to talk to the people in the "I do not know" group first.)

Now, that's a large-to-very-large number of atheists in the biology departments at "elite research universities", but not all.

JLM, so you have to pray to join your super secret club before you can get answers to fairly basic questions about it? I'll pass on that offer, thank you.

By the way, the physicists' responses to those questions were 40.8%, 29.4%, 8.1%, 2.8%, 12.8%, and 6.2% respectively. The chemists' responses were 26.6%, 28.6%, 9.4%, 6.3%, 18.2%, and 10.9%. So, the chemists are a bit more godly than the biologists, and the physicists are about the same.

JLM, why do I have to become a Christian to understand the Bible's validity and who has the authority to interpret it correctly? Is this book magical and only sensical to Christians?

JLM, so you have to pray to join your super secret club before you can get answers to fairly basic questions about it? I'll pass on that offer, thank you.

Not a "secret club", Ray. This "club" you refer to has been around for ages and has never been a secret! Come join us! God is knocking :)

However, they are losing ground, as Christianity is growing and is the largest faith in the world.

Sorry Tara.

All ID says is that something started the universe in motion.

The debate came when scientists changed direction and decided that humans should replace God and become the Creator. In lies the problem with evolution. It takes the Creator out of creation.

Don't you see how contradicting this is. At first it is "ID basically says something started everything in motion" (a form of deism perhaps? Maybe got the first life form and let evolution take the rest?)

Then you say, "evolution is the problem."

Just admit it, IDers!! The movement is fundamentally opposed to evolution because of a false idea that in conflicts with religion. Nothing more, nothing less.

In fairness, Edyt, that's just Catholics. 33% are Christians. (Of course, if you took the Catholics out of the equation, since a lot of fundamentalist Christians don't believe Catholics are "real" Christians, then Islam would come out ahead.)

JLM:

Your posts are wonderful as well and I am the one who is humbled at your grasp of scripture.

A true Christian warrior.

JLM, why do I have to become a Christian to understand the Bible's validity and who has the authority to interpret it correctly? Is this book magical and only sensical to Christians?

Edyt,

Pretty much, although I probably wouldn't have used the word "magical"...more like "spiritual". Knowledge of God can only come through the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit does not teach you, how can you understand God? Here's what the bible tells us:

1 Corinthians 2:10-14

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

PIP -

No I made a statement about ID.

Then I made a statement about Evolution.

Then I made a statement about Faith.

Then I made a statment about Evolution and Faith. No Evolution and ID.

I left ID out at the end of my statements, bc ID has nothing to do with the Creation/Evolutional debate.

HisMan,
awww...thanks! I'm growing more & more every day...Praise the Lord for that!

Your posts actually inspired me to be open with His truth. I thank God for you!

Ray,

I don't claim to be a creationist, it's not important to me, personally, I just believe that God created our world. Your statement that "There is no physical evidence to support the notion of creationism, whatsoever. None.", is false is my opinion because supporting creationism and proving creationism are two different things. The bible supports creationism to those who believe in God.

JLM, I hate to say it, but that's like saying I have to join the KKK to understand the goals of white supremacists.

Edyt:

The KKK is an evil group. Is that how you view Christians?

Edyt,
I understand where you're coming from. I didn't say it, though...God did. Honestly, though, if you do want to get to know Him, that's how. If not, well, if you're ever in town, you'll know where to find Him!

But I'm not asking about God. I'm asking about the correct interpretation of the Bible.

Is it all to be taken literally?
If not, what is? What isn't?

And: Who is the authority on what is or is not to be taken literally?

Janet, I don't believe in "evil" as in the sense that something is inherently wicked or immoral, since I think morals are quite subjective.

But I get your meaning, and honestly, I have thought that at times, but I give people the benefit of a doubt before I go off casting them as bad people!

"No I made a statement about ID.

Then I made a statement about Evolution.

Then I made a statement about Faith.

Then I made a statment about Evolution and Faith. No Evolution and ID.

I left ID out at the end of my statements, bc ID has nothing to do with the Creation/Evolutional debate."

Tara...if you haven't noticed what's going on right now in our school systems, ID has everything to do with creation/evolution debate. Because "ID" is what creationists call themselves, ever since creationism was ruled to be a violation of separation of church/state.
Accounting for myself ID refers to the movement. In the broad sense I do believe in an "intelligent designer" but I believe he used evolution to do it. The movement is specifically opposed to evolution, otherwise there would be no controversy because they would recognize their position as philosophical.

But I'm not asking about God. I'm asking about the correct interpretation of the Bible.

Edyt,

That's what I'm trying to tell you. The bible is the Word of God. It's authors were inspired by God to write the exact words God wanted them to write.

That's what the Holy Spirit will teach you. To the common man that doesn't have the Spirit of God guiding him, it's very confusing, and something that the human mind cannot comprehend on its own. This is why I posted the verses from 1 Corinthians. The Spirit teaches the spiritual things.

ID has everything to do with creation/evolution debate. Because "ID" is what creationists call themselves, ever since creationism was ruled to be a violation of separation of church/state.

PIP,
You're absolutely correct. It's the Christian's "politically correct" term we had to succumb to so we can teach "God created" without using the name "God".

I admit that I do not believe that we evolved from another being, because God told us that we are created in His image and likeness. It's totally a faith thing, and I am not ashamed to admit or believe that!

Anon:

My point is not that the world is here. My point is that there is such complexity, such wonder, such well, evidence of intelligent design, albeit, design that has been tainted by man's failure.

How can a scientist who believes in the law of entropy, i. e., that all matter tends towards a more disordered state, believe in evolution which is basically in direct opposition to that law?

And if evolution is automatic, why do living things die? Why isn't there a mutation for non-death. You'd think that after a few billion years that just a few cells, organisms, species, would have figured out how to, well, survive forever. Death makes no sense from an evolutionary skewed point of view absent of spiritual reasoning. If God put evolution into motion why did living things die before the Fall supposedley leaving a fossil record? If evolution is true then living things evolved (lived and died and reproduced and mutated and varied and survived, became extinct, etc., etc., etc.) before the Fall. So, evolution denies that there was even a Fall. The answer is God did not put life into motion using evolution as the protocol. He created, (intelligently designed) a perfect world which was in perfect balance and in complete harmony with His intent and will until, i.e., no death. Humans decided to go their own way, which is called the Fall and all of creation was affected by this event and death and decay entered into creation. So, there could be no evolution before the Fall, only after the Fall, this is absurd. Christians are you listening?

This is why I disagree with Christians that think evolution is the way God did the deed.

You can see what acknowledging evolution does right here on this site, a microcosm of the larger debate. If you start accepting evolution as fact then you start to question everything the Bible states. By accepting evolution, you can question the creation account, the Fall account, the Flood account, I mean then you can even question whether or not Christ came in the flesh which the Bible clearly and literally states is from the spirit of the anti-Christ. Don't you think promoters of evolution know this stuff? They are not stupid people, evil, yes, stupid, no. Their agenda is clear.

We should not be surprised. They want to take that which is good, i.e., God's word, and teach that it is evil, the very definitiop of blasphemy. This is monumentally blasphemous. And there is a conductor orchestrating this symphony of death playing all these saps like violins.

Let's make another thing very clear. The Bible has never said that the earth was the center of the Universe. There are no biblical "stories" claiming this. This terra-centric view of the heavens and earth was the teaching of men who like today, were more interested in maintaining their entrenched power than in searching the Scripture for truth. So, to present this as an analogous construct as a argument against creation is absurd. The Bible clearly and explicity states exactly how the universe, the earth, all living plants and animals and humans were created. Evolution is a direct assault on the Genesis account of God's Word and this false doctrine of evolution, and it is a doctrine, a doctrine of demons, will dissappear.

And, the Hebrew word for day is a literal 24 hours not a description for a generalized and arbitrary period of time.

How can I know this all for sure? Because you see, the Holy Spirit dwells in me and I have the mind of Christ. "The flower withers and the grass fades but the word of God endures forever."

PIP,

Here's a beautiful commentary on Genesis 1:26-27, (we are created in the image of God) that sums up where I came from in my 10:34 post. Please read the whole thing so you can see where this "crazy bible-thumper" is coming from, ok???

Man created in the image of God.

Man was made last of all the creatures: this was both an honour and a favour to him. Yet man was made the same day that the beasts were; his body was made of the same earth with theirs; and while he is in the body, he inhabits the same earth with them. God forbid that by indulging the body, and the desires of it, we should make ourselves like the beasts that perish! Man was to be a creature different from all that had been hitherto made. Flesh and spirit, heaven and earth, must be put together in Him.

Man, when he was made, was to glorify the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Into that great name we are baptized, for to that great name we owe our being. It is the soul of man that especially bears God's image.

Man was made upright, Ec 7:29. His understanding saw Divine things clearly and truly; there were no errors or mistakes in his knowledge; his will consented at once, and in all things, to the will of God.

His affections were all regular, and he had no bad appetites or passions. His thoughts were easily brought and fixed to the best subjects. Thus holy, thus happy, were our first parents in having the image of God upon them. But how is this image of God upon man defaced! May the Lord renew it upon our souls by his grace!

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/index.php?action=getCommentaryText&cid=18&source=2&seq=i.1.1.6

JLM:

You are on your way to becoming a Christian giant. "No longer conform to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind."

There are 31 chapters in Proverbs, read a chapter a day every month for 12 months and God will give you wisdom that you could not imagine.

Besides, He promises that if we ask Him for wisdom, He will not hold anything back.

I'll bet anything you made that request of Him lately, no?

Posted by: HisMan at April 11, 2008 10:38 PM....

AWESOME, AWESOME, AWESOME POST!!!!!!

I'll bet anything you made that request of Him lately, no?

LOL!!! You are so right!

You know, a few years back, I admired the way that many people knew the scriptures. I memorized alot of them along the way, but I didn't read the bible much. I went to church about 5 years ago, and heard an ex-prisoner's testimony on how he found God in prison. He mentioned several times in that testimony of how he was "on fire for God". His enthusiasm for God was absolutely astounding!!!! A few weeks later, I wanted what he did...to "be on fire for God". I asked God for that, and WOW! He sure did answer my prayers! While I was "on fire for Him" (and still am!), I also did pray for wisdom and understanding of His word. Since that time, the Word of God has been "lit up" every time I read it! I gain more understanding each time I read. I'm definitely growing in Him!!!!

JLM:

I don't know if you have ever read what I am going to post? To present this is absolutely consistent and appropo to this conversation, so here it is:

"Abortion is an affront to the creative nature of God, it negates God as Creator,

Abortion denies the power of God to right a wrong, it negates God as Redeemer,

Abortion makes that which is good, the birth of human life, into that which is evil, the death of human life, and then calls it good, the very definition of blasphemy,

Abortion negates the resurrection power of God as it takes flesh that is alive in it's earthly abode (the womb) and kills it, while God takes that flesh which is dead in it's earthly abode (the grave) and desires to make it alive,

Abortion's desire is to take that which was composed from the chaotic array of elemental molecules into a symphony of life infused with an eternal soul, and turn it back to the entropy of randomness, chaos, nothingness, uselessness.

Abortion is against all that is hopeful, all that requires faith for success; for it's solution; annihilation, it's goal; death, it's dream; breaking God's heart, it's vision, Satan's ultimate power.

Abortion is a counterfeit, for the clawprints of Satan are everywhere to be found in its performance;

Abortion disguises hate as love, bondage as freedom, choice as maturity, sin as righteousness, political correctness as wisdom,

Abortion pits men against women, mothers against their children, fathers against God, Yes, abortion is Satan's feeble attempt at killing God Himself, for abortion is a metaphor for Satan; it is his coat of arms, his family crest, his logo, his brand, it belongs to him......for he laughs at its willing proponents as they craft their own self-destruction, mantled in self-deception.

Copyright 2007, 2008 by HisMan"

Well... thanks for "answering" my questions, boys. I'm done.

JLM: You are on your way to becoming a Christian giant. "No longer conform to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind."

There are 31 chapters in Proverbs, read a chapter a day every month for 12 months and God will give you wisdom that you could not imagine.

Besides, He promises that if we ask Him for wisdom, He will not hold anything back.

I'll bet anything you made that request of Him lately, no?

Posted by: HisMan at April 11, 2008 10:48 PM

HisMan, Be careful with the praise please! JLM already knows she's a "whiz" at scripture, we wouldn't want it to go to her head! :D (Just kidding, JLM)

HisMan,

When Heather asked you to post that when I first started "coming around here", and you did...it's when I first "fell in love" with your posts. AMAZING words from a truly AMAZING man who is in love with the AMAZING King of Kings & Lord of Lords!!!!

JLM,

I see where you are coming from and if you accept that God guided evolution to create man, and created a soul for us that bears Gods image, then there should be nothing contradictory between the two.

God "created them on the same day." I.e. God had man evolve and therefore have the mark all the animals do, but because he has given humans an immortal soul, one that connects him with God like no other creature can, humans are fundamentally spiritually different from the other animals.

This is where I am coming from.

Janet,
LOL!

btw..I keep getting caught up in conversations, but I want to let you know that I LOVED this part of your post:

"There is no physical evidence to support the notion of creationism, whatsoever. None.", is false is my opinion because supporting creationism and proving creationism are two different things. The bible supports creationism to those who believe in God.

That was AWESOME!!!!

Pro-life God:

"And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them." (II Kings 2:23-24)

"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalm 137:8-9)

"And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death." (Exodus 21:15)

"And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:17)

(Above two also in Leviticus 20:9)

Deuteronomy:

21:18: If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
21:19:Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
21:20: And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21: And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear

"Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him." (Proverbs 22:15)

"If any man take a wife, and go in unto her . . . and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid . . . and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die . . ." (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)

"Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up." (2 King 15:16)

Similar:
"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)

From Numbers:

5:20: But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
5:21: Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
5:22: And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
5:23: And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
5:24: And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
5:25: Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
5:26: And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
5:27: And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
5:28: And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
5:29: This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
5:30: Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
5:31: Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

Sounds like an abortion to me.

JLM:

Every Thursday, I go to an AIM (Atletes International Ministry) luncheon. World clss Christian athletes from all over the world and others come and give their testimonies. Next week my oldest son will be the speaker.

Yesterday, a guy came who was a hitman/assassin for the Mafia. His testimony was out of this world, telling how, before he became a believer, God rescued him from death.

The frosting on the cake was how he and a guy that had searched for him for three years for the sole purpose of killing him, but had become a believer, reconciled.

Only God can do that.

PIP,
Thanks for explaining! It's great to see our differences and be able to explain them!

I just believe that "God said", and it was. It was instantaneous, like "let there be light". Bam! Instantaneous Light!!! Power in Him and His words. No evolution...instantaneous!

HisMan,
AMEN!!!! You must be so proud of your son!!! Please let me know how it goes!

I LOVE hearing testimonies from those who really hit bottom and found God. I became a Christian at a young age, so it's something that I've just always pretty much known. I almost envy those that came to know Him at a later age. The feeling of His grace and mercy must be on such a greater level for them than what I know!!!

How is Sean and your family doing??

Aw, man...not the evolutionary debate AGAIN.

I swear...it's things like this thread and the homosexual one that make me annoyed and want to stay away.

Science.can.not.measure.spirituality.

Can science measure love? No..why? Because love is not something tangible to be measured by science. Now one can observe physical expressions of love but LOVE itself can not be measured by science.

JUST LIKE RELIGION. Science can not measure whether God exists or not. That is in the hearts and the minds of people who believe he does. Science will never be able to tell you that, just like it will never be able to tell you how much you love someone.

Edyt:

Yes, the penalty for sin, unbelief and disobedience under the Law was terrible. I'm glad you're just now realizing that.

Thank God Jesus Christ came to free us from the bondage and curses of sin.

Just think, now that we have a way out from the penalty of sin, how much worse it will be for those who reject the offer of mercy.

"The wages of sin is death, BUT, the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".

Careful Edyt that you don't blaspheme God, i.e. question His stance on life by quoting verses out of context. This is extremely dangerous and disrepectful.

Can science measure love? No..why? Because love is not something tangible to be measured by science. Now one can observe physical expressions of love but LOVE itself can not be measured by science.

Actually, there are many scientific ways of measuring love. Time magazine dedicated a whole section to the science of love.

HisMan, how about another attempt to answer the question of which parts of the Bible are to be taken literally?

Actually, there are many scientific ways of measuring love. Time magazine dedicated a whole section to the science of love.

What exactly about love were they measuring?

Elizabeth:

There are many social scientists that I think would disagree with you.

What type of love are you talking about? Fileo, eros, or agape?

I think the Alfred Kinsey in the 1948 Kinsey Report was a perverted scientist's attempt at classifying eros. No? A lot of people up to this day believe that crap like they believe evolution. In fact, I think that "scientific" study birthed the current sexual perversion we find today and was foundational to the legalization of abortion.

Here's a quote about the guy: "He is a man who recruited, wooed and solicited pedophiles, not pedophiles in prison but pedophiles out of prison to find children and to sexually torture them." Judith Reisman, Ph.D. and author of Kinsey: Crimes and Consequences.

And excuse me, the evidence of God's existence is everywhere to be found in His creation.

And excuse me, the evidence of God's existence is everywhere to be found in His creation.

Yeah, which can not be measured scientifically. Thank you for proving my point.

Be fair, I started out just ranting about Mathis because he is a bonehead :P

JLM,

yes after the fiasco with Bethany I'm going to try to be careful on how I word things ;)

Edyt:

Take these literally:

Creation
Man's Fall
The First Murder
The Flood
Abraham and Isaac
Israel's Captivity
Moses' Birth
Israel's Deliverance
The Promised Land
The Story of King Saul
The Story of King David
The story of Solomon
A history of Israel's Kings
Israel's Demise
The Virgin Birth of Christ
Christ's Life
Christ's Death
Christ's Resurrection
The Church

Take these metaphorically:

Song of Solomon
Perhaps the Book of Hosea
Revelation is written in apochyphal language and very difficult to understnad. The point of this book is however, God and His children win.

By no means is this an exhasutive answer to your question, however, I think you get my drift.

Elizabeth,
Forgive me, but you've said this statement many, many times before, and I must say that I'm quite confused as to what you are trying to say. You say: "Science.can.not.measure.spirituality."

Science is the observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena. It's its theoretical explanation, when it conflicts with God's word, is what I at least have a problem with. Not it's "measurement", but it's explanation...like it has God all figured out, when, especially with evolution, it dismisses Him in the first place.

JLM:11:11:

Thank you.. I was thinking of you when I said it! (below)

"There is no physical evidence to support the notion of creationism, whatsoever. None.", is false is my opinion because supporting creationism and proving creationism are two different things. The bible supports creationism to those who believe in God.

JLM,

I am glad we reached an understanding on this issue :) I understand that you interpret the bible differently and vice versa.

Please understand too that it is insulting that evolution, instead of being a scientific theory that may, according to you "be wrong," is often portrayed as the CAUSE of all of these social evils and the people who make this movie want misunderstandings about the nature of scientific methodology to be prevalent in our culture and school systems. That is what is so frustrating about the movie.

Saying we simply believe something different is one thing- that I don't have a problem with- but saying that my belief is somehow 'responsible' for atheism, abortion, and the holocaust is insulting and just a stupid assertion. In no way does the scientific theory itself imply anything of the sort.

Anyway, I hope we have come to an understanding, an now I have to go to bed! Night!

Wow...

So I'm "evil" because I consider evolution a valid scientific theory?

Interesting.

...like it has God all figured out, when, especially with evolution, it dismisses Him in the first place.

It never even mentions God so why would you think that means science has "God all figured out?"

Science is the observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

Physical phenomena.

Can science measure your faith in God? Is there a scientific experiment that you can come up with that actually measures God's presence in your life or in others? THAT'S what I mean. Science never says God doesn't exist...you just take the lack of mention of God to mean that science says He doesn't, and that is your assumption...and you know what they say about those....

Here's a definition for you:

science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") refers to any systematic knowledge or practice. In its more usual restricted sense, science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on the scientific method, as well as to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research.[1][2] This article focuses on the more restricted use of the word.

Fields of science are commonly classified along two major lines:

-Natural sciences, which study natural phenomena (including biological life), and
-Social sciences, which study human behavior and societies.

...(science) It never even mentions God...

Why not?

So I'm "evil" because I consider evolution a valid scientific theory?

Didn't you get the memo Rae?

Evolution somehow disproves God...

Only it doesn't.

Why not?

Because there is no scientific way to explain His existence. The key word in this sentence is SCIENTIFIC.

Now, there are theological/religious ways to explain His existence. But in regards to science, no.

It's like math. Math doesn't mention God, does that mean they are somehow disproving his existence by not mentioning Him? No! It would make no sense to talk about God when you are trying to solve for x. So why does science have to include God in their discussions of SCIENCE?

@Elizabeth: I didn't think so either.

Again, I'll restate my opinion on the matter: evolution is the "how" and God is the "why".

But in the end, it really doesn't matter...all that matters is that we're here today, not where we were at the dawn of time.

Evolution somehow disproves God

If it doesn't, why do evolutionists get so ticked off at Creationists???

why do they put the fish with legs with the word "darwin" on their cars?

Why does it say that we evolved from apes when God clearly said we didn't?

Why does it try to explain away Creation by saying that it just happened by accident and it threw itself together?

Elizabeth:

I think I understand what you are thinking but, let me lay what I think out really for my own benfit, OK?

Science is only one way of knowing, not the only way, agreed?

Do you love your children? (I'm sorry but I assume you have children so substitute anyone).

How do you KNOW you love them. Can science prove that you love them?

I guess, science can present a hypothesis as to what love is, i.e. propose a defintion of love and, based on observations of your relationships and behaviors, make a conclusion as to whether or not your behaviors meet the hypothetical defintion of love. They can do this thousands of times with lots of differene people and present a whole slew of statistics, based on a "preponderance of overwhelming evidence", that love can be defined, measured and quantified. This is similar to the development of the theory of evolution by the way.

In a way, how one constructs the hypothesis frames the conclusion.

If science cannot prove that you love someone, does that mean that you do or don't love them?

If science cannot prove God's existence, does that mean He doesn't exist, even circumstatially? Heck, people are sent to death row on overwhelming circumstantial evidence.

It's absurd to think that because science cannot prove God's existence that there are no other ways of knowing this for sure. In fact, if one thinks science is the only way to prove the existence of God, he elevates science to a place it has no right to occupy.

If it doesn't, why do evolutionists get so ticked off at Creationists???

Probably for the same reason Creationists get ticked off by people who believe in Evolution. Because both of you refuse to see ANY other side but your own. AND that everything is a one-sided issue...which it is not.

why do they put the fish with legs with the word "darwin" on their cars?

Umm...cause they want to piss you off...which clearly works. It doesn't bother me, because I know that evolution doesn't disprove God in any way. But I am also a person of faith and am pretty logical. There are people who are not.

Why does it say that we evolved from apes when God clearly said we didn't?

Well, I suppose it depends on whether you take the Bible literally or not.

Why does it try to explain away Creation by saying that it just happened by accident and it threw itself together?

I have never heard of this happening...science doesn't say anything happened by accident and threw itself together.

I would imagine that people who try to do this have a hard time grasping on to something that isn't physical or factual.

I believe God is the creator of all Life..so let's say for a minute, hypothetically that you don't take the Bible literally. Evolution says that humans are descendents from other species correct? So what if God created those other species and gave them the ability to evolve so that humans could be created? At the very beginning of it all is God...so in essence, both ideas are correct. God IS the creator of all life and therefore, He created evolution. Does this make sense to you?

HisMan, 12:25 a.m.

You stated it perfectly..and much more eloquently than I could at this late hour I might add. :)

Rae:

You said: "Again, I'll restate my opinion on the matter: evolution is the "how" and God is the "why".

But in the end, it really doesn't matter...all that matters is that we're here today, not where we were at the dawn of time."

This is a poor assumption.

The Bible makes some outrageous and conditional claims that not believed could endanger one's eternal soul like: "Unless you believe that I am He, you will perish", "if you deny Me before men, I will deny you before my Father in heaven".

For example, a belief in evolution acknowleges chance as a piece of the evoltionary motor. Chance implies that there is no accountabilty. No accoutability implies that good and evil are arbitrary and there are no absolutes. This leads to the conclusion that sin does not exist. The belief that sin does not exist implies that there is no need for a Savior which results in the denial of Christ which leads to eternal damnation. Any doctrine, belief, theory, call it what you will that denies Christ is from the spirit of anti-Christ.

If you don't think I am right on this just go research the teachings of that English guy Dawkins.

@HisMan: *yawn*

I don't think it is "chance". I thinkt it was planned...you know, theistic evolution.

Nor do I really care what Dawkins says, because in short, I really *don't* care about evolution or where we came from, it's irrelevant to the here and now. Sure, I accept evolution as valid, but I don't really get up in arms about it, and I don't need to have you thumping your bible at me as you berate me and call me "evil" and "stupid" because I don't agree with your view point.

Guys, love all of you, but rrally, I've been ignoring my wonderful wife.

Oh, some bad news on Sean. The neurologists found no brain activity in Sean. His wife Gina, my niece, and Sean's family decide to remove all life suppor