Wait how is that fetus in one piece if it was aborted?

Good question, Jess. they ripped the babies apart during abortions, I've read that here many times. Arms, legs, everything. Even when the mother is yelling at them to stop. Sometimes they drug pregnant women on the street and drag them in for forced abortions.

Jess,
How can you look at that photo and still support abortion?

How accessible is abortion in Kansas?

Sometimes these pictures are too much for me to bear.

Hal, different types of abortions work in different ways. The baby in the picture was a victim of Partial birth abortion.

Hal and Jess,
We have been over this many times before.
Although most babies are ripped apart, there are other gruesome methods to murdering the unborn.

Tiller the Killer uses a shot to the babies heart to stop it immediately, dilates the cervix and ultimately the woman delivers an intact baby.

Partial Birth Abortion. You should already know this method, but once again...
the abortionist dilates the woman's cervix, yanks out the live baby half way, punctures the skull, sucks out the brain and delivers the rest of the baby. It is intact with the exception of a pierced and crushed skull.

As in Jill's previous hospital, mothers' were induced for an "interrupted pregnancy" and the babies there were delivered early and just left to die in a linen closet.

Sometimes these pictures are too much for me to bear.

Posted by: Carla at April 10, 2008 3:31 PM

Carla,
I know what you mean, the pictures of the babies make me cry.
The picture of this disgusting murdering lunatic makes me so mad. Is he married? Does he have kids of his own?

Jess -

Dialation and Extraction is just one way to terminate a pregnancy in the 2nd and 3rd trimester. That is the one that cuts the babies apart. Possible guess would be a PBA (I think I saw this picture before the ban)- if you notice all the blood seems to centrilized around the neck area and the head seems to be a bit uncentered. Also, it could be from Digoxin Induction which is where the abortionist injects poison into the fetus heart to terminate the life and then delivers the baby.

Edyt:

I believe the laws in Kansas are this:

Parental notification for minors (not consent)along with counseling where an adult is present.

Women must give informed consent.

Post-viable abortions must be for the life of mother or that continuation of the
pregnancy will cause substantial and irreversible impairment of a major
bodily function - along with proper documentation of the gestational age and 2 doctors not financially connected agreeing on the abortion.

I found this:

www.ppkm.org/PDFs/kline_case_Ks_law.pdf

It is from PP website - I'm not sure how recent this info is, but it looks like it is from the laws I've been trying to follow.

I wasn't asking about laws. I was asking about accessibility.

How expensive are abortions?
Does the cost of an abortion outweigh what most people can pay? (For example, does it cost more than a month's pay?)
How many clinics in Kansas offer abortions?
Are they located throughout the state and/or are they accessible through public transit?

It makes my heart hurt to see those pictures of the babies...if that were an animal...they would be doing a special on Oprah about it. But not a baby...noooope. How tragic.

Elizabeth,
Just recently a man was convicted for tearing the head off of a duck that lives in an ornamental pond at a hotel in my state. (he was a drunk hotel guest) How ironic that he could be fined up to $5,000 and spend two years in jail for this act of cruelty but these murdering abortionists can continue to mutilate innocent babies for a living.

Sandy,
FYI, Hal is in denial and obviously hasn't learned a single thing in all the time he's been commenting on this blog.
It just blows my mind. I dunno Hal, how many times has Jill posted stuff on PBA? How many times has this procedure been explained to you. You really just don't WANT to know do you?

Hal said: "Good question, Jess. they ripped the babies apart during abortions, I've read that here many times. Arms, legs, everything. Even when the mother is yelling at them to stop."

Hal, this is probably the most outrageous thing you have ever posted, and that is saying something. You know damn well that there is a type of abortion that results in a bloody corpse that looks just like the one in the picture - the Intact Dilation & Extraction abortion, in which a baby's skull is cut open and his brains are vacuumed out. A PROCEDURE THE LEGALITY OF WHICH IS ENTHUSIASTICALLY SUPPORTED BY YOUR FAVORITE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE.

This post of yours makes me seriously doubt if you have any humanity at all left inside you. Even if you were just joking, what the hell is so funny about that picture? If you were to say something like that to my face, I would have to leave the area to avoid punching you.

Edyt:

Sorry I misunderstood..

I looked up on Gynpages.com (which is sponsered by NARAL) and abortion.com (these are the only two websites I know about for abortion locations) There is the Center for Women's Health in Overland Park; Dr. Tiller's clinic in Witchita; and PP of Kansas and Mid-missouri has a clinic, Comprehensive Health Center in Overland that does abortions. (This PP has 11 clinics throughout Kansas and mid-missouri).

As for cost, I don't know. PP would be on the Sliding scale through Title X. The Center for Women's Health doesn't have a list of prices. I've seen Dr. Tiller charges anywhere from $5,000 to $7,000 but those are from biased sources. I can't find a list of fees for Dr. Tiller either.

Public transit would be as available as any big city and as unavailable as any small city. In other words, I have no idea. ;-)

See, I'm wondering if more people in Kansas have late term abortions because of inaccessibility to abortion clinics. I've heard stories of women hitchhiking(!!) and sleeping outside by their clinic so that they don't miss their appointments.

Sandy, Rae and Carla should get at MOA!!

I meant MEET at MOA!!

Sandy, 4:24:

Just recently a man was convicted for tearing the head off of a duck that lives in an ornamental pond at a hotel in my state. (he was a drunk hotel guest) How ironic that he could be fined up to $5,000 and spend two years in jail for this act of cruelty but these murdering abortionists can continue to mutilate innocent babies for a living.

Maybe the duck latched on to him and wouldn't let go, the darned thing. What state do you live in?

Oh, I'm totally against animal cruelty in addition to abortion.

It's interesting how our concept of animal rights has changed.

John, YOU want to punch him! Get outta my way, brother and let all 5ft 100lbs of me at him!
You have to realize that Hal CANNOT EVER admit to what he and his wife have done - it will shatter him. It's the complete antithesis of what it means to be a man - a protector, a father.It goes against his own humanity, even though he doesn't think so.
Deny, deny, deny

Janet, my dad was attacked one time by Canada geese who didn't like his cigar smoke! lol
It was funny until he had to retreat to the car!!

Patricia:Janet, my dad was attacked one time by Canada geese who didn't like his cigar smoke! lol
It was funny until he had to retreat to the car!!

Ha ha! We have those creatures here too. Especially on golf courses and by ponds. They can be nasty and so messy!

Edyt: It's interesting how our concept of animal rights has changed.

I can't touch that one.

"You should already know this method, but once again...
the abortionist dilates the woman's cervix, yanks out the live baby half way, punctures the skull, sucks out the brain and delivers the rest of the baby. It is intact with the exception of a pierced and crushed skull."

Actually I never heard it before could anyone post me a link? And you know I'm against abortion after the point of viability unless the mother is in danger of being physically or mentally harmed.

And for some reason the picture is very blurry. Maybe it died inside the mother? I can't say this picture turns me off of abortion because I don't know the whole story.

Jess, The beginning of the quote says the live baby is pulled out half way. It's a Partial birth abortion.

So it's not PBA if the baby is dead?

What WOULD turn you off abortion Jess? If we posted a bashed baby seal next to the dead aborted baby?

Well, when you guys finally make abortion illegal, we get the right to post dead women from botched abortion photos, deal?!

And put them on billboards and march in front of churches and everything. Because it's not offensive, you just can't handle THE TRUTH.

Well, when you guys finally make abortion illegal, we get the right to post dead women from botched abortion photos, deal?!

Posted by: Edyt at April 10, 2008 8:12 PM

Edyt,
You can find plenty of those photos since abortion was made legal. I think they should be posted. It would be just more reason to end abortion.

Maybe the duck latched on to him and wouldn't let go, the darned thing. What state do you live in?

Posted by: Janet at April 10, 2008 4:56 PM

Hi Janet,
I live in Minnesota. Unfortunately this guy was a drunken idiot who decided he wanted to eat a duck and apparently trapped it in a corner and killed it. He held it up like he was going to eat it and said he wanted duck for dinner.

Carla,
I would love to meet you and Rae at the MOA!!!
What a great idea!!

"What WOULD turn you off abortion Jess?"

Um, knowing what I know now I don't think anything will change my views on abortion.

http://www.theanimaladvocate.org/040726_mommykills.jpg

I'm going to hand these out to kids at elementary schools. It's the truth.

Sandy, can you look at the following picture and still be a right-to-lifer?

http://bmb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/67/1/99/F1

Edyt: If you want to know how much Tiller charges for his abortions, just call his clinic and ask them.

Edyt 8:12PM

This has already been done. The picture of Geri Santoro was a popular way to promote legal abortion. Ms. Santoro died of an illegal abortion in 1964 and abortion advocates apparently had no other picture to use than hers, even though thousands of women were alleged to be dying of illegal abortion.
By the way this was shown on TV and no one seemed terribly concerned about children being traumatized by it.

Mike 9:20PM

He can probably keep his prices down since his staff, consisting of untrained and unlicensed personnel, don't have to be paid as much as medically trained personnel.

Sandy, can you look at the following picture and still be a right-to-lifer?
http://bmb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/67/1/99/F1
Posted by: SoMG at April 10, 2008 9:02 PM

I know I can. Women still have illegal and self induced abortions now that abortion is legal.

You really thought that would stop, SOMG? Check out the dates on these articles.

http://www.popline.org/docs/139204

http://www.popline.org/docs/017014

Edyt said: "Well, when you guys finally make abortion illegal, we get the right to post dead women from botched abortion photos, deal?!"

Please do, to show that the horrors of abortion extend beyond the slaughter of the unborn child.

The pro-abort starts from the point of view that abortions are inevitable. The pro-lifer starts from the point of view that abortions are unnecessary, and that women like Gerri Santoro would not have sought abortion if they had someone to support and help them.

SoMG, your picture just reinforces my understanding of abortion as a horrendous evil which must be eliminated. You post an image of a woman mutilated by abortion and demand safer abortion. I see the same picture and demand an end to all abortion.

For those who aren't up on the Tiller situation, and the fact that he is currently facing a Grand Jury for violating Kansas abortion laws, you can go to Operation Rescue West's website (liked on the right here, on Jill's) and read the whole story. They have just written a chronological piece on the entire thing.

OR has done a splendid job of getting this case to the point it's at now, thanks to Troy Newman.

Bethany,

Woman will continue to self induce for the same reason they always have, protection of privacy. If you think you can discreetly induce your own abortion, why not?

Also, SOMG's picture is from Nigeria where quality of care does not approach ours and women deal with other hardships we can't even comprehend. Wasn't this the country where a woman was sentenced to be stoned for adultery?

John L, you wrote: "I see the same picture and demand an end to all abortion."

That will never happen.

Edyt and Mike: Dr. Tiller's rates vary depending on the circumstances of the abortion--how far along it is.

SoMG, of course abortion will not end as long as you guys keep promoting it as a valid "choice".

JohnL, abortion will not END--meaning zero abortions--no matter what anyone does.

Bethany,

I wanted to make the point that women didn't necessarily attempt self abortion because they couldn't obtain a legal one and your articles prove that point. It was now as it was then, women wanted to protect their privacy. No questions asked, no forms to fill out, minimal cost if any. A friend of mine who worked as a nurse in New York City often saw this situation even though, according to her, there were abortion clinics on every street corner and any woman that wanted one, no matter how desperate her circumstances, could get it.

...and, no doubt, on how much he figures he can scare the woman into paying...like what's she going to do, shop around for a better deal ?

He's got to be pretty desperate for cash at the moment...he's paying 11 attorneys to get him out of the mess he's in at the moment.

His days as a dr. are numbered.

SoMG, it would help a great deal if people would stop promoting abortion as a valid "choice". People who claim to "hate abortion".

John L, you wrote: "...and, no doubt, on how much [Dr. Tiller] figures he can scare the woman into paying...like what's she going to do, shop around for a better deal ?"

That's a slander.

@Carla and Sandy: That would be most delightful! I'd be glad to meet y'all. :)

Just lemme know when you're available and all that jazz, I'll be around this weekend.

John L: Read the following, and the Lancet article to which it refers.

http://www.truthout.org/issues_06/102207WA.shtml

"South Africa liberalized its abortion laws in l997, and maternal deaths from unsafe abortion have plummeted by 90 percent."--study co-author Gilda Sedgh.

"Thus, in South America, where abortion is largely illegal, the rate is 33 [abortions per thousand reproductive-age women per year]; in northern America, where it is legal, the rate is 21."--the same.

JohnL, abortion will not END--meaning zero abortions--no matter what anyone does.
Posted by: SoMG at April 10, 2008 10:11 PM
*****

Wrong. Abortion will end at the second coming of Jesus Christ.

"Truthseeker", I'd agree to a law criminalizing abortion after Jesus Christ returns. ;=)

btw...

http://allsp.com/

You can go here, click on season 12, and then the episode "eek, a penis!"

The abortion part is at 14:27.

hehehe that was a really funny episode.

SoMG:

What an abberation you are; an iconoclast who happens to be a medical professional. Use to be the two were mutually exclusive. Now, they're just as common as horse manure in a pasture. At least the manure promotes life.

John:

Reading your posts are like eating apple pie, only better. Thoroughly enjoyable but not fattening.

Valerie:

This is an excellent post. Let's keep the pressure on this monster tiller of death, digger of graves.

>

"Truthseeker", I'd agree to a law criminalizing abortion after Jesus Christ returns. ;=)
Posted by: SoMG at April 10, 2008 11:08 PM
******

SoMG, It's not my call, Jesus will judge you for your actions and choices you make while walking the earth. But I'm as certain as I can be that Jesus would "positively" judge the actions of a person who offers financial and emotional support to anxious woman considering abortion. And I am just as certain that Jesus would judge a person "harshly" if he took pride in being responsible for killing the children growing in a mother's womb. Really Really Really Sucks 2BU to be you.

Hal:

I really don't know how to reach you man. John see's it, Lizard sees it, Bethany see's it, Valerie see's it. God see's it.

We care about you man but your attutude is revolting and obnoxious. Why, why won't you let us in? I know there's a good heart somewhere in there.

What in heaven's name has happened to you?

Are you in so much pain that you have to deny what you allowed regards your daughters? I just can't understand someone making comments like you do without a huge emotional pain component to it. Open up man before you explode, please. What you did is forgiveable and God will forget it as if it never happened but you've got to admit that it was wrong.

C'mon, please.

SoMG:

I won't hesitate one second to call a spade a spade.

You are demonically influenced and inspired.

How do I know this, because only a heart demonically controlled can speak the words that come out of your mouth.

I can see how it would appear that way to you.

"Truthseeker", I'd agree to a law criminalizing abortion after Jesus Christ returns. ;=)
Posted by: SoMG at April 10, 2008 11:08 PM

While the laughter of joy is in full harmony with our deeper life, the laughter of amusement should be kept apart from it. The danger is too great of thus learning to look at solemn things in a spirit of mockery, and to seek in them opportunities for exercising wit.
Lewis Carroll

Jess,

Um, knowing what I know now I don't think anything will change my views on abortion.

The fact that you'd never heard of a partial birth abortion, tells me you don't know all that much. Being for something as horrendous as abortion without understanding what it is, is really kind of sad. You've been on this site for how long now?

I love you girl, but you really need to watch ALL of the videos that have been posted here on what abortion is! Start with the choice blues one.

No, SoMG, you don't get it. You want us to chose between safer legal abortions and less safe illegal abortions. I'm telling you that that is a false choice, and I will never accept it. There's a reason why these women are seeking abortion, and it's typically out of desperation because they feel that they are alone and that nobody will help them.

Gerri Santoro sought abortion because she was afraid that her husband would murder her when he found out that she was pregnant. Yes, what a liberating, pro-woman "choice" it is, when you feel that you need to kill your offspring to save yourself from being murdered by your spouse. The photograph of Santoro's dead body shouldn't be used by the pro-aborts; it should be used by pro-lifers. It is a picture which shows a woman abandoned by society and by those who claimed to be pro-woman. It is a photo of a woman who should have been alive along with her child, if only someone had shown her some compassion.

Anonymous said: "John L, you wrote: "...and, no doubt, on how much [Dr. Tiller] figures he can scare the woman into paying...like what's she going to do, shop around for a better deal ?"

That's a slander."

Actually I didn't write that, but I do find it interesting that you feel the need to defend a hideous man like Tiller from such speculation. Pro-aborts of a feather, I suppose.

John L 8:14am

Excellent point.
Also, while crying about their "concern" about traumatizing pictures, abortion supporters have had no qualms about parading this long dead woman's very undignified, naked and bloody picture. It was displayed on TV and no one howled how traumatizing it might be to children.
They can't even let this woman rest in her grave with some dignity and respect.

John,
Your post at 8:14 has me in tears. Had I received the compassion and help you described I would have my child with me today. Thank you.

Good morning Carla! :)

"Anonymous said: "John L, you wrote: "...and, no doubt, on how much [Dr. Tiller] figures he can scare the woman into paying...like what's she going to do, shop around for a better deal ?"

That's a slander."

Actually I didn't write that, but I do find it interesting that you feel the need to defend a hideous man like Tiller from such speculation. Pro-aborts of a feather, I suppose."

Correct, John. And, truth is a complete defense to slander!

Good Morning, Rae!!
No snow? Ok then!
Can't do this weekend, but I am totally serious about getting together! :)
Hope you have a good day, doing class, studying and all that good college stuff!!

@Carla: :) I had a heck of a time driving home from RCIA last night, teh roads were coated in sleet, yuck.

Urgh, I have to get off my lazy bum and get to the lab...I already skipped physics this morning (bad student!) and I have a lot to do today...bleh. So tired of school.

Just let me know when you are available and whatnot, I'm typically available every weekend unless I go home to do laundry. :)

@Carla: :) I had a heck of a time driving home from RCIA last night, teh roads were coated in sleet, yuck.

Urgh, I have to get off my lazy bum and get to the lab...I already skipped physics this morning (bad student!) and I have a lot to do today...bleh. So tired of school.

Just let me know when you are available and whatnot, I'm typically available every weekend unless I go home to do laundry. :)

Morning Rae and Carla!
This weekend would be out for me too, but I am totally up for an MOA trip! Let's see what we can put together.

Man, this is awesome! Ya'll get to meet! I'm so jealous!

Hal, different types of abortions work in different ways. The baby in the picture was a victim of Partial birth abortion.

Posted by: Bethany at April 10, 2008 3:32 PM
********************
Then why is the head intact and not compressed? If anything its the result of a prostaglandin abortion (sp?) or another method which causes labor, dilation and delivery of an intact fetus. Do you know for sure its a picture of an abortion and not a stillbirth? Where did the picture come from?

The report said doctors had determined there was a 'reasonable probability the pregnancy may be viable' - which means what? what kind of percentage does that reflect? 75% chance? 50%? 15%? What? Also according to the report the abortion "Prevents substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function". Are you really going to insist that antichoicers can insist this "doesnt mean anything" when you dont know a thing about the womans medical records?

Obviously Kansas has a higher percentage of later term abortions because people from out of state go to Kansas to have later term abortions. Its a matter of states laws.

Ahhh, TR, that makes sense.

Honestly,
Why always question the photos authenticity?

Seriously, all you PCers support this act. You know what the gestational stages of babies look like, you know the procedures.

So why don't you believe the photos are real representations of these poor little innocent souls?????

I swear you could be attending an abortion and claim that the baby pulled out in pieces was really just an android from another planet.

Thank you, Sandy. That is exactly how I feel.

No, they wouldn't, Sandy, they would claim that it was just a blob of cells.

A very large blob of cells with fingernails, toenails, hair, eyes, a mouth, ears...you get the point.

It doesn't matter what they see...to them, it will always be propaganda so they can continue on in their denial. Only God can reveal the truth to their hearts.

Kel, and I think you forgot to add:..."and to ease their guilty consciences for abortions they either had, or took part in....."

I wonder too what the deal with doubting these pictures is. I mean what do they THINK an aborted child looks like?

Abraham Lincoln:
How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four; calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.

Bertrand Russell:
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.

Martin Luther King, jr.:
I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. This is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant.

Elizabeth Kenny:
Some minds remain open long enough for the truth not only to enter but to pass on through by way of a ready exit without pausing anywhere along the route.

Demosthenes:
Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true.

First of all, in the case of fetal demise near and post-viability, c-section or induction of labor with pitocin would be used to deliver. The fetus would be delivered intact and there would not be the degree of trauma to the head or abdomen present seen in a fetus which had been surgically aborted using the D&E or intact D&E method. Also, note the surrounding enviroment. The forceps pictured are above are sharp forceps used in a D&E or intact D&E procedure to grasp and remove fetal tissue and the placenta, obstetrical forceps are long and slender. Nor, do I doubt a professional hospital would store human remains in a plastic tub, but rather unless it's been kept for pathology, it'd be destroyed immediately in an incenerator. Also, to note, from 14 to 24+ weeks there are primarily two abortion methods used, the D&E procedure which results in a piecemeal fetus and labor induction. In the later, on the first day, an injection is administered to the fetal heart to cause demise, on the second day, the woman is given cervix-ripening agents and induced into labor with pitocin, delivering an intact and stillborn fetus. This method is common used, especially in the case of "theraputic" abortions and this is the method Tiller uses. Well, if the image pro-lifers are using is of a stillbirth and the stillbirth was caused by surigcal means, then it's still an abortion.

Obviously Kansas has a higher percentage of later term abortions because people from out of state go to Kansas to have later term abortions. Its a matter of states laws.

Regardless of state laws, there are very few abortionists in the U.S. willing to do abortions nearly up to birth and Tiller is one of them. Most abortion doctors/obsetrictions won't touch late-term abortions with a ten-foot pole. Most are uncomfortable with the idea of preforming abortions past viability, both because it bothers their conscious and the medical risks/legal liability involved.

mk:

Elizabeth Kenny:
Some minds remain open long enough for the truth not only to enter but to pass on through by way of a ready exit without pausing anywhere along the route.

How true.

Patricia: You have to realize that Hal CANNOT EVER admit to what he and his wife have done - it will shatter him. It's the complete antithesis of what it means to be a man - a protector, a father.It goes against his own humanity, even though he doesn't think so.

Oh pullleeeaase. In no way does Hal have to agree to your subjective opinion about things. Your mistake is that you seem to think that "being a man" is accepting the unprovable things you have the emotional need to accept. It's not.

No, but being a man does mean protecting your family and loved ones...even if it's from yourself.

Rae:

"I had a heck of a time driving home from RCIA last night, teh roads were coated in sleet, yuck."

As in Rite of Christian Iniation for Adults RCIA?

MK: being a man does mean protecting your family and loved ones...even if it's from yourself.

Agreed, once those who are so protected are members of ones family and among the "loved ones." Choosing to end a pregnancy is often on the basis of not wanting to add to one's family at the time.

Doug,
Choosing to end a pregnancy is often on the basis of not wanting to add to one's family at the time.

Too Late.

Probably should have thought of that sooner. Real men accept responsibility for their actions.

MK, no, not too late.

Real men and women may realize that it's best to end a given pregnancy. That's not saying that they wouldn't rather have prevented the pregnancy, but once an unwanted pregnancy is fact it's no longer a consideration.