This is 100%, absolutely right on the money.

Are you listening Focus on the Family and Dr. Dobson?

How can NRLC say that McCain opposes Roe when he has said that he doesn't favor overturning it?

Can you say, "flip-flopper?" Twice?

As this NRLC article from 1999 demonstrates, McCain has flip-flopped on the abortion issue, as has NRLC on their support for him:

http://www.nrlc.org/news/1999/NRL999/mccain.html

The NRLC article is a bit muddled. This Washington Post article from 1999 clarifies the issue a bit:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/mccain082499.htm

The juicy bits:

"I'd love to see a point where it is irrelevant, and could be repealed because abortion is no longer necessary," McCain told the Chronicle in an article published Friday. "But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade, which would then force X number of women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations."

(snip)

Douglas Johnson, legislative director of the National Right to Life Committee, said the statements were "really a drastic flip-flop from those earlier pronouncements of his unsurpassed commitment to restore legal protection of unborn children."

Flippity floppity!

Great! The man supports embryonic stem cell research as well, and wants to repeal Bush's ban on federal funds for embryonic stem cell research.

Wow! Who knew that the NRTL people supported that!

McCain has been branded as supporting embryonic stem cell research.

I suggest that you go to one of the most pro-life politicians on the face of the planet's website and see what he says about why we pro-lifers should support John McCain.

www.LenMunsil.com March 30, 2008 post.

Nathan, McCain has said repeatedly he wants Roe v. Wade overturned -- and as early as February 2007. See http://www.lifenews.com/nat2938.html

Laura... it appears you didn't read the original article before posting. NRLC and McCain disagree on embryonic stem cell research. NRLC has never supported ESCR nor funding of it and has consistently taken a strong stand against it.

Read the original story on this at http://www.lifenews.com/nat3845.html

Great Steve, you want to tell me the difference between killing embryos and killing embryos?
It's OK to do it in a petri dish, but it's NOT OK to take an RU-486?

Gee, I'm adamantly pro-choice, and I can't see the difference. Maybe one of you pro-lifers can explain it to me.

John McCain is a batty old man.

Ray and Laura:

You could care less about John McCain and his pro-life stance.

You want to diss the only cnadidate who stands to nominate 3 to 4 pro-life Supreme Court Justices.

I'd be terrified too if I were a pro-abort.

HisMan: Even if McCain were elected, even if Roe/Wade were overturned, abortion would still only be banned in a few states. Women living in those states would travel to pro-choice states for their abortions.

Nothing for "pro-aborts" to worry about.

I CAN"T WAIT for "The Real McCain" to be released next month. I've already pre-purchased my copy.

HisMan, the only thing that "terrifies" me about McCain is the fact that he is an crotchety old man growing more senile by the day, seemingly yearning for a 100 year occupation of Iraq and war with Iran, too, and perfectly content to let our children and grandchildren finance it. Regarding those scary pro-life Supreme Court justices, don't forget that they will have to be confirmed by a senate that will almost certainly be more Democratic, perhaps even filibuster-proof.

As for McCain's prospects of winning, let's just say that if you look at his anemic fundraising to date and the relative numbers of democratic and republican votes in their respective presidential primaries, there isn't much hope for him.

"National Right To Life endorsed Hillary Clinton today after John McCain dropped out of the presidential race. A NRL spokesperson is quoted as saying, "Dang it, we only pick people who have a chance to win. We have nothing to do with stopping abortion and everything to do with supporting viable candidates." While giving a speech at the University of North Texas a dumbfounded Alan Keyes remarked, "These National Right Life wierdos... what is their effin' deal?""

SoMG:

One step at a time:

Ray, the Democrats will not win a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.

However with the pro-choice Republican senators on board, there may well be a PRO-CHOICE filibuster-proof majority.

If it turns out that way, we will pass the Freedom of Choice Act and then we won't have to worry about the Supreme Court any more.

HisMan, you're just salivating for a black market in abortion services, aren't you?

The way I see it, laws against abortion either will or will not stop doctors from doing abortions. If they don't, then what's the point of the law? If they do, then there will be a black market, as there always has been when right-to-lifism has had its way, with untrained people providing the abortions without a doctor's supervision. For some reason this seems to appeal to HisMan. Maybe he can explain it.

Great Steve, you want to tell me the difference between killing embryos and killing embryos?
It's OK to do it in a petri dish, but it's NOT OK to take an RU-486?
Gee, I'm adamantly pro-choice, and I can't see the difference. Maybe one of you pro-lifers can explain it to me.
You are right Laura, there is no difference. I'm adamantly pro life, abortion is either always wrong or it's never wrong. Pro lifers can't have it both ways.

SoMG,

I say we legalize stealing too, after all, people are going to steal anyways. What good are the laws against stealing?

SoMG The way I see it, laws against abortion either will or will not stop doctors from doing abortions. If they don't, then what's the point of the law? If they do, then there will be a black market, as there always has been when right-to-lifism has had its way, with untrained people providing the abortions without a doctor's supervision. For some reason this seems to appeal to HisMan. Maybe he can explain it.

You'd like everyone to think that the "back alley" abortions would return, but a black market wouldn't be so bad in 2008 if you think about it. There will always be a way of getting around the laws, just like when it was illegal before 1973 for example. Doctors trained housewives - members of the Chicago Women's Liberation Union - "JANE". to do abortions in a pretty sophisticated "secret" underground network. So even if abortion is illegal it won't completely disappear. That'll keep you pro-aborts happy, no?

"If voting ever solved anything, they would have made it illegal." - Emma Goldman

Cranky Catholic, brilliant!

Also, misoprostol will mitigate the black market.

SoMG:

I am not for blackmarket abortion, I am for NO abortions. I am for a return to a value system that fears and honors God. A value system that honors marriage. A value system that views homosexuality as perversion and degeneracy.

I will not cave to a value system that says let evil have its way because evil exists. I am for the total defeat of evil.

There's one item that you guys forget about in this whole matter of abortion.

And that one item is a transcendent, all powerful God who demands a reckoning for the shedding of innocent blood. History proves it.

The only thing holding God back from exercising his hand of judgement on this country for the 50,000,000 heinous murders of innocent and indefensible children in the womb are the Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, praying and begging for Him to have mercy.

Even God has a limit as to how much he will restrain Himself from exercising his wrath. But the signs of the season are everywhere to be viewed. Islam is on the rise threatening to nuke our cities, our economy is on the brink of a depression, our schools are in trouble, our health care system is in trouble, families are in trouble. It wouldn't take much for this country to crumble. And it will unless we return to the godly principles that made this country great.

Why you ask, it started by muzzling the church via the 501c3 satanically inspired legislation of one Lyndon B. Johnson. Then prayer was taken out of schools, then the legalziation of abortion, now an attempt to normalize perversion.

I beg for Lord's mercy even for you SoMG because you know not what you do, for, "Every knee shall bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord".

"Islam is on the rise threatening to nuke our cities, our economy is on the brink of a depression, our schools are in trouble, our health care system is in trouble, families are in trouble. It wouldn't take much for this country to crumble. And it will unless we return to the godly principles that made this country great."

Yeah, we could try that. Or, we could elect Senator Obama. I think I'll put my trust in Obama.

HisMan, you are a loon. Or a fake.

ROFL @ HisMan being called a "loon" or a "fake" in this thread. This thread is bursting with pro-abortion fakery.

Of course NRTL endorsed McCain, he's 90% pro-life instead of 0% pro-life like the other two candidates who may become president. Of course NRTL was reluctant to endorse McCain, he's 90% pro-life instead of 100% pro-life. It's not really hard to understand this, and I can only assume that the pro-aborts who seemingly do not understand this are playing dumb in order to try to confuse everyone.

And you've even gone so far as to bring up the old "100 years in Iraq" lie, which proves more tahn anything proves that Barack Obama is a liar. Obama isn't an idiot; he knows what McCain was talking about when he said 100 years in Iraq. Since he isn't an idiot, he must be a liar, just like his pro-abort lackeys on here.

Hola, mi amigos y amigas.

Me gusta Buenos Aires muy mucho; es especial y kick-ass.

Quien es Juan McCain?

Doug

Senator McCain values and fights for the God-given, inalienable RTL as much as he values the U.S. Constitution's 1st Amendment.

Senator McCain values and fights for the God-given, inalienable RTL as much as he values the U.S. Constitution's 1st Amendment.

Posted by: lesforlife at April 8, 2008 10:04 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Really? He's all for embryonic stem cell research. What's the difference between killing an embryo during a research experiment or sucking it up with a vacuum or killing it with RU-486?

If an embryo = a baby, then the man endorses BABY KILLING!

Those familiar with McCain Feingold, might detect
the sarcasm.

You're such a goof-ball, Doug :)

The only thing holding God back from exercising his hand of judgement on this country for the 50,000,000 heinous murders of innocent and indefensible children in the womb are the Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, praying and begging for Him to have mercy.

Even God has a limit as to how much he will restrain Himself from exercising his wrath.

Hisman, you crack me up. That is some of the funniest crock I have ever read here, even better than Jill comparing an empty lot with a construction fence to Auschwitz! I suppose God caused the levies to fail in New Orleans because of the gays, too? And those poor saps caught in the tsunami in the Indian Ocean...if only they had been repented Christians, they would have been saved!

Frankly, I think that God is more likely to strike down those who use the threat of him striking down others to scare or cajole them, than anything else. Do you really think that Jesus would have said to a sinner, or to anyone, "My father will exercise his wrath upon you down if you keep doing this."? No, the wrath/striking down thing is not very Christian at all.

SoMG, I'm pretty new to this so I don't know if you are male or female, but I think you are funny and smart, and if you are a boy, let's get married!! My only issue is this, and I'm sure it's been fought before. I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion. Please do not call people pro-aborts. I know pro-lifers (or shall I say, anti-choicers) would like to think it's black and white, but there's a whole lot of gray. I am extremely pro-choice but I would never get an abortion. So why are you calling me and others like me pro-aborts? Because we support others making their own life decisions while we personally would never abort?

Ray 11:37: Hisman, you crack me up. That is some of the funniest crock I have ever read here, even better than Jill comparing an empty lot with a construction fence to Auschwitz! I suppose God caused the levies to fail in New Orleans because of the gays, too? And those poor saps caught in the tsunami in the Indian Ocean...if only they had been repented Christians, they would have been saved!

Is this the first you've ever heard any of what HisMan said? You may think it's all funny now, but there's more disaster to come, for sure, we just don't know where or when. It's your choice whether you want to be concerned.... or not.

Frankly, I think that God is more likely to strike down those who use the threat of him striking down others to scare or cajole them, than anything else. Do you really think that Jesus would have said to a sinner, or to anyone, "My father will exercise his wrath upon you down if you keep doing this."? No, the wrath/striking down thing is not very Christian at all.

Pick up a Bible if this all seems foreign to you, and open it up to the Old Testament. Just start reading.

Pick up a Bible if this all seems foreign to you, and open it up to the Old Testament. Just start reading.

Janet, having attended Catholic school (which played a large part in my departure from Catholicism), I am fairly familiar with both old and new testament. You can't have it both ways. Either Jesus' "New Deal" dying on the cross for our sins gives us a loving and forgiving God, or all that love your brother and turn the other cheek stuff was crap, and God is still hankering to smite. Which is it?

Not to mention that why would God bother smiting us here if the sinners are condemned to hell anyway?

Starting with two different creation myths back to back, the bible is riddled with contradictions that allow just about anyone to justify just about anything with select passages (slavery, anyone?). How anybody can believe in a religion based on that nonsense is beyond me.

Hi am,
I believe SoMG is involved in the abortion industry. If you would like to get to know him/her better I suggest looking at some old posts.

Far be it from me to stand in the way of this budding online relationship though. :)

Hey Carla,
What do you define exactly as the abortion industry? I got this image of him as an abortion doctor now, but I'm a volunteer escort (I'm sure you, as a mother and even a pro-lifer, would be shocked and horrified by the terrible, terrible things shouted at these young women), so I guess I'm a part of the industry too. I guess our love is meant to be! Gosh, I hope SoMG is a woman, then if we are in love Hisman can have a field day with that!

Hi am,
An abortionist? He/she never denied it.

Everyone I know that "protests" outside of mills is there to pray and talk to women about alternatives to abortion. They do not shout terrible things at young women. I am sorry that has been your experience as well as young pregnant women. :(

Attention, "am" - you are not pro-choice, you are PRO-ABORTION. Your crowd wants taxpayer funding of abortions, taxpayer funding of abortionist training.
No choice for Americans there.

Wow. How many times can I type the word women?? 3 I guess.

Like most ex-Catholics turned bitter atheists, Ray has no clue that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are the same God, that there is no contradiction between the two, and that the Old Testament leads up to the events of the New Testament. In both Testaments, the wicked suffer death while the virtuous enjoy life, if not in this world then in the next.

This seems to happen more with Catholics than with Protestants, so we can probably blame the piss-poor job done by many Catholic churches, schools, and parents in teaching the faith. I complain when Protestants say that we aren't "Bible-based", but then you have some "devout" Catholics who don't even know the difference between Peter and Paul. There's no excuse for that kind of extreme biblical ignorance among any Christians.

Ray said: "Do you really think that Jesus would have said to a sinner, or to anyone, "My father will exercise his wrath upon you down if you keep doing this."? No, the wrath/striking down thing is not very Christian at all."

"He who sows good seed is the Son of Man, the field is the world, the good seed the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the children of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

Just as weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth."

-Jesus Christ, Matthew 13:37-42

"Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

Blessed are they who wash their robes so as to have the right to the tree of life and enter the city through its gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the unchaste, the murderers, the idol-worshipers, and all who love and practice deceit."

-Jesus Christ, Revelation 22:7-15

You know what the really sick irony is? God loves everyone, and offers salvation to everyone. All you have to do is love God in return for the love He freely gives to you. Yet so many people, like Ray, think that this is somehow a bad deal, and they become bitter ex-Christians. Then when you inform them that not only does God love us, but He loves us enough to give us the free will to choose whether or not to love Him in return, they denounce the very free will which has led them here to argue in favor of a right to abortion! Now that is irony.

Come on pro-lifers! Let's support the same candidate for president that the pro-abortion Republicans for Choice has endorsed!!! Rah! Rah!

McCain opposes killing Jews in gas chambers! McCain opposes lynching Blacks!
McCain does support the harvesting and killing of human beings for the purposes of Mengele-style medical experiments which will one day allow the cloning and cultivating of human embryos for transplant purposes to make the lives of every privileged elite citizen easier and more carefree...

But two out of three isn't really all that bad, when you're talking about post-Reagan Republican candidates, is it?!

Robert, McCain is 90% pro-life, and it's possible he could be 100% pro-life if we convince him to change his mind on embryonic stem cell research, which is a possibility. With Clinton and Obama, it is impossible.

I still don't get why this is so hard for some of you to understand.

"This seems to happen more with Catholics than with Protestants, so we can probably blame the piss-poor job done by many Catholic churches, schools, and parents in teaching the faith."

Stupid "spirit" of Vatican II...

Gerry- PLEEEEEASE do not group me! "My crowd" does not exist. I don't have a crowd. I am a single person. One person. I am pro choice. I am also pro staying out of other peoples' lives. Thus I can be pro choice without being pro abortion. But it's not my place to choose another's life course. And how do you know what I want tax payer money spent on, PS? Money spent on abstinence-only education- where was my choice in that? Granted I'm under the poverty line and don't pay taxes, but I think you see my point.

Carla- I'm glad there are better protesters in other clinics then! I've had to hold the hands of crying women who have had SLUT and MURDERER shouted at them and who have just been told they'll burn in hell forever. Scary stuff.

Bobby, I think we should add a new lesson for Catholic students to learn before they are Confirmed. The lesson would be called, "What WASN'T Changed by Vatican II".

Ray 2:07:

I'm not sure which brand of Catholicism you grew up with, but over the last 40 years, our catechism lessons were severely lacking. You've probably heard that before if you've been on this site for a while.

At this point in time the Church is slowly getting back to the core teachings, and a lot of Re-verts (ex-Catholics) are returning to the Church. You are welcome back.... anytime.

I just noticed John L. posted at 5:09 (I need to refresh my screen more often), nut I'll post this anyway.

am said: "I am pro choice. I am also pro staying out of other peoples' lives. Thus I can be pro choice without being pro abortion. But it's not my place to choose another's life course."

If you are really pro-choice as you claim, then you must also be:

-Against any form of taxation whatsoever. Taxation is inference in the lives of other people.

-In favor of gun rights. If you tell someone that they can't own a certain gun, you're interfering in their life.

-In favor of private schools. And actually, against public schools as well. Public schools are funded by taxes, which you need to be against if you're truly "pro-choice".

-Against Welfare, government provided healthcare, or any government programs, since they're all paid for by taxes.

So, are you really pro-choice? Or are you just pro-abortion?

"Bobby, I think we should add a new lesson for Catholic students to learn before they are Confirmed. The lesson would be called, "What WASN'T Changed by Vatican II".

Amen John.

am,
That is awful. Sad. Sickening. This prolife mommy does not condone that kind of behavior. Ever.

John L. -

So you'd be okay with a candidate who is in favor of killing only 10% of the Jews? "He's sure a whole sight better than the guys who want to kill all of them!"

Sorry -- that's bankrupt. I'll vote only for people who will kill NO Jews, and NO babies.

God never said to support the Egyptians because they took care of their slaves better than the Baal-worshiping Philistines. Enslaving, killing, killing some, not others... All that's just shades of the same wickedness. Don't give in to the wickedness -- refuse to support evil!

And yes, John McCain is EVIL. So is Hillary. So is Obama. It doesn't matter which one is more evil -- we are not allowed by God to SUPPORT evil!

You're right, Robert. Whenever you vote, it's always choosing the lesser of two evils. Your best bet is to never vote.

The pro-life movement has reached an all-time low when National Right to Life endorses the same presidential candidate as Republicans for Choice will support.

Steven Ertelt and NRLC have some very big questions to answer:

1. If we never get the right amount Supreme Court justices to overturn Roe, does that mean we never attempt a personhood amendment?

2. If George W. Bush was the "most pro-life president" we've had and he gave us no justices that believe the unborn have a right to life, will we ever reach the right amount of justices by supporting republican candidates like McCain?

3. Finally, why is it that no one, including you and NRLC, were willing to discuss strategy before supporting the partial birth abortion ban, but want to now with human life amendments popping up all over the country?

The partial birth abortion ban never even had the legal authority to prevent one abortion, and a human life amendment has the potential legal authority to prevent all abortions, yet you and NRLC support the former and not the latter?

I wonder what the babies scheduled to die between now and the however many decades it will take to get the right amount of justices, want you to do Steve. It's the wrong time for them to die Steve. And it's the wrong time for us to sit on our hands and do nothing.

John L: Like most ex-Catholics turned bitter atheists, Ray...

Sorry John, you had it wrong before you got halfway through your first sentence. I am not an atheist. I have a very comfortable relationship with God. Like most people on this planet, my understanding of God does not involve his kid, JC, but I am definitely monotheistic. And while I may joke about the Flying Spaghetti Monster when creationism is being discussed, I do not actually believe that God has noodley appendages and meatballs for eyes. I do, however, believe that the Flying Spaghetti Monster creation story is every bit as valid as your Genesis.

Incidentally, to those of you expressing disdain for Vatican II, would you really rather go back to celebrating mass in Latin?

Incidentally, to those of you expressing disdain for Vatican II, would you really rather go back to celebrating mass in Latin?

Maybe.

But the intent of Vatican II is not the problem.

The results of Vatican II and the liberties taken, are.

Edyt,

Sure - vote if you have a real choice. You can always write in a candidate. I believe strongly in voting.

But when you're given no real choice -- when there's no one who is not evil to vote for -- don't support the evil system.

In Nazi Germany (or most dictatorships) it was law that everyone must vote. And it was "law" that everyone must vote for Hitler. Yet, Hitler never got more than 99.5% of the vote. That means at least 100,000 Germans refused to support evil. Can you imagine the courage that must have taken?!

We're not there, yet. Not even close. We still have influence. Why throw away that influence by allowing the Republican Party to think they can get away with mere lip service by giving us pro-abortion candidates who say in election season that they're "pro-life"? Why train the party to have contempt for us? Again!

Alan Keyes should be on the November ballot. I shall be voting for him. There may be other pro-life choices, too.

Yes, everyone vote for Alan Keyes.

Please.

"Incidentally, to those of you expressing disdain for Vatican II, would you really rather go back to celebrating mass in Latin?"

Oh yes, absolutely. There is a Tridintine mass about 45 minutes from where I live that I sometimes attend.

Really, Vatican II isn't the problem. It is a wonderful council with some beautiful documents. It's those who have interpreted the council to their own likings, like KM alluded to, that is the problem.

Whatever you say, Hal. Hee Hee

Ray, "Incidentally, to those of you expressing disdain for Vatican II, would you really rather go back to celebrating mass in Latin?"

I'm not one who expresses disdain for Vatican II, but I've been to several Latin Masses, and they are beautiful.

I just mentioned this on another thread, if you are interested, here's a link to a great site:

http://www.catholicscomehome.org/index.phtml

The truth hurts, huh AM?

I'll accept the claim that you pay no taxes. That just means you want the government to use its powers to take money out of the pockets of others to fund evil.

Your pathetic attempt to claim to be "pro-choice" shows your cowardice. You are pro-abortion - at least have the courage to admit your stand.

Funny, how we never hear about someone being "pro-choice" when they advocate school vouchers. There are a million other examples. They all go to show that the baby-killer crowd keeps pushing the "pro-choice" lie because they are desperate to divert attention from what abortion really is.