Do some research on Bill Ayers, and it will quickly become apparent what a ridiculous smear this is against Obama.

Ayers is a tenured professor at the terrorist institution called the University of Illinois at Chicago. He was never convicted of any crime.

He gave the Obama campaign $200. He served with Obama briefly on a eight member board of a charitable insstitution.

The desperation of you extremists is amazing!

"Obama was saying he considers both those views equally outrageous and beyond the pale."

Both those views are equally outrageous and beyond the pale.

Anon, yes, I've done research on Ayers. "He was never convicted of any crime"? Apparently your sole source is MoveOn.

Wikipedia: "All charges against him were dropped because of prosecutorial misconduct during the long search for the fugitives."

That's the only reason he's not in prison, free to host a fundraising party for Obama's state senate campaign.

Yeah, you certainly wouldn't want to be associated with an extremist: http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/Fallwell%20and%20Jill%20iii.jpg

JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

Laura, nice bait but no bite. We're talking about Obama and his various ties to domestic terrorist Bill Ayers. I know this is an uncomfortable topic for you.

Perhaps, Jill, you do not understand that if charges are dropped, you are not convicted of a crime, and you don't go to prison, even if Jill Stanek wants you there!

Jill, your constant attempts to distort the truth and demonize and smear others are pathetic.

Laura, nice bait but no bite. We're talking about Obama and his various ties to domestic terrorist Bill Ayers. I know this is an uncomfortable topic for you.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at April 17, 2008 6:10 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nope.
That picture of you and Falwell is proof positive that;
a) You believe that America deserved what it got on 911, and...
b) You believe that Tinky Winky is gay.

anon,

Bill Ayers in 2001, after 9/11, regretted that more damage wasn't done to the pentagon and WTC

Laura 6:02PM

Please tell me where Jerry Falwell ever planted bombs. I've never been a fan or follower of Falwell but from what I understand freedom of speech does exist is this country. The man can express any opinion he wants. You and I have the choice to neither listen to or agree with him.

Did Senator Coburn ever plant a bomb?

anon,

Bill Ayers in 2001, after 9/11, regretted that more damage wasn't done to the pentagon.

Posted by: jasper at April 17, 2008 8:08 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...And Ann Coulter wished that the terrorists had struck the New York Times building as well.

OFF TO GUANTANAMO!

Bill Ayers was serious though...

Laura 6:02PM

Please tell me where Jerry Falwell ever planted bombs. I've never been a fan or follower of Falwell but from what I understand freedom of speech does exist is this country. The man can express any opinion he wants. You and I have the choice to neither listen to or agree with him.

Posted by: Mary at April 17, 2008 8:16 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ayers didn't plant any bombs, either.

Tinky Winky didn't plant any bombs.

Laura,

Do your research. He most certainly did.

Yet again trying to judge a man by looking at the actions of someone else. It's like saying I must be an atheist because many of my friends are, or that I do drugs and support it because some of my friends have done drugs. It's all ridiculous.

And I do have to agree that both views are ridiculous and far outside the norm. Thankfully many thoughts of Jerry Falwell (at least publicly) are as well.

Dan,

Have any of your friends or associates planted bombs in NYC police headquarters, the Pentagon, or the Capitol building?
"What a country" Ayers said in 2001 "it makes me want to puke".
Have any of your friends taken part in rioting and wanton destruction by vandalism and arson as in the 1969 "Days of Rage" in Chicago where police officers and civilians were viciously attacked? Ayers was an active participant in this action.
All told Ayers and his friends were responsible for 30 bombings aimed at destroying the defense and security infrastructures of the United States.
"I don't regret setting bombs" Ayers said in 2001, "I feel we didn't do enough".

No Dan, one certainly can't judge a man from his friends or associates, can one.

No Mary, one cannot get the character of a person through a friend, or a pastor, or anyone else but that person. Is it possible there mya be similar views? Perhaps, but its also possible they hold completely opposite views, "opposites attract" does have some merit to it.

As for Ayers being a friend, its a bit of a stretch to begin with. They've worked together on the board of an anti-poverty group and he donated to the campaign. That does not a significant relationship make. And aside from that fact, Ayers is now a respected figure in academic circles.

As for the bombs, that honestly doesnt surprise me all that much. Is it scary? Yeah. Is it stupid? Yeah. Does it show theres probably some past mental health condition, or perhaps one on going? Possibly. But as for not doing enough, obviously he'd feel not enough was done, the war kept going for what, another 10-15 years? The whole thing failed.

I end by reasserting-

No, you cant judge one by their friends. I currently have friends that if I were in a political career right now, I'd have to answer some similar questions about my characters if they went after my friends, perhaps my parents, and probably even my ex-stepmother seeing as how nothing is off limits in politics. It's all ridiculous. You judge a person by the decisions THEY make and what THEY do, not what other people around them may do.

Jesus anyone? Surrounded by sinners, yet was not one himself. In fact He was trying to do what he could to aid them. In many cases the disciples would try to brush them off as they tried to near him out of disgust for what the sinner had done, or out of fear, yet each and every time Jesus commanded they be allowed to stay or come with their mission, etc.

I know im probably get accused of comparing Obama to Jesus, when that is simply not the case. I'm simply proving you cannot judge a person by those who surround him, or else our Lord and Savior would not have any chance Himself because of the people He associated Himself with.

So stop judging a person by those around him, and instead get to know the person himself, for only then can you realize who they are, not by the ones who may be by their side.

Dan,

You said you have friends and associates who differ from your point of view. I asked if any of them were ever involved in bombings, arson, and violence. Were they? Would you associate with such people? Viewpoints are one thing, actions quite another.
State senator Alice Palmer introduced Obama as her successor to influential liberals at the home of Bill Ayers and his wife Bernadine Dohrn. Why would an Illinois state senator and Barack Obama visit the home of a former terrorist for any reason?
I can well imagine the reaction if McCain had visited the home a former klan terrorist when starting his career.
Ayers in now a respected figure in acadamia? John Gotti was a respected figure in his community as well.
Good character and respect don't always go hand in hand.

Dan I don't understand your point concerning bombing. Are you saying that bombing is just "stupid"? What failed? The war ended in 1975, it didn't continue 10 to 15 years later.
Ayers bombed and committed arson and vandalism because he was a terrorist, period.

No we can't judge Obama by his pastor. After all, he spent 20 years in that church but was totally clueless about his pastor's politics and preachings.

Dan,

Let me put it this way. What would be your reaction if John McCain had begun his career by visiting the home of a former bomber? What if this was someone who, with his associates, had planted up to 30 bombs at abortion clinics. What if this person had engaged in the arson and vandalism of such clinics?
Let's also say this person expressed no remorse of any kind for the bombings and felt that if anything he hadn't done enough. Let's also say this person is now a respected member of acadamia.
Would you have any problem with this?

The Clinton's were bad.

Obama redefines the term.

I notice that you guys dwell on a vague association of Obama's, but you never mention that McCain was a member of the "Keating Five."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1955596/posts

Mary-

I would extend McCain the same courtesy.

Mary-

I spent years as a member of the Catholic church before leaving. I did not agree with my pastor (as nice a guy as he was, which is probably partly why I stayed) however the point is, I didn't agree with what would be considered "enough" of what he said and left. I know people, even family members, who consider themselves a member of the church even if they disagree with much of what is being preached, and even though they think some sermons preach bigotry and/or hate, yet they dont leave the church because they want a connection to some sort of faith. Besides, if it were that big a concern for me, I'd be more afraid of McCain's endorsers and his spiritual adviser than Wright.

I've found I'm a rare beast, I pretty much have an incredibly high standard when it comes to being a member of a church. Not until I can agree completely with their doctrine and beliefs will I able to consider myself a member. I've started looking at more spiritual churches for myself, but no luck quite yet (though I like the sound of the Liberal Catholic Church, but there aren't any near my, I think the closest is out in VT or something )

I amazed to see how people missed the whole point of Obama’s “comparison.” Ayers’ actions during the ‘60s took lives--innocent people perished. To compare that with Coburn—who merely suggested that abortionist’s should be ELIGIBLE for the death penalty—is a preposterous comparison. Why would Obama make the comparison of the murder/terrorist and a legislator? It seems that he is betting on a gullible America come election time.

Dan, 5:15am

You have a far more charitable nature than me. I would have a very serious issue with it.

Dan, 5:25am

You may have disagreed with your pastor, but did you ever proclaim your ignorance of what your pastor believed or where he stood on certain issues? Sorry Dan but if you did I would have to be highly skeptical, especially if you described this person as your mentor and spiritual advisor. A Harlem minister and Obama opponent, his name is Manning, has stated he would consider it an insult if any member or his congregation was as clueless about him as Obama claims to be about his pastor. He has also accused Obama of throwing his pastor under the bus to further his own political career.
Dan, if my pastor preached hatred and gave a lifetime achievement award to the local racist anti-semitic, I would be out the door. You sound like someone who would be long gone as well.

Who is McCain's spiritual advisor? As for endorsing someone, people can endorse and support whoever they want. I remember porn king and slimeball extraordinnaire, Larry Flynt, who Gloria Steinem has called "the Josef Goebbels in the war against women", expressing his love,
admiration and support for Bill Clinton. I don't recall anyone having an issue with this. I even heard Jennifer Flowers planned to vote for Hillary. I, yi yi.

Charles 7:11am

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the only people ever killed were weathermen who blew themselves up by mistake.
However, when you plant bombs there is the potential of people being killed despite your best efforts to avoid it, so Ayers and his group certainly, at very least, endangered people's lives.
Coburn or anyone can express an opinion. We are all free to agree or disagree with him. This is a far cry from setting off bombs and engaging in vandalism and arson.

Dan, how about joining a Satanic cult? That would probably be a good fit for a rare beast like you.

Not that I'm endorsing Satanic cults. I just think you would fit in well there.

Mary said: "Who is McCain's spiritual advisor?"

Dan's just lying, Mary. He's trying to say that some Christian minister who said something objectionable, and who happens to support John McCain for president, is McCain's personal spiritual advisor just like Jeremiah Wright is with Obama. It's nothing but a pathetic, dishonest attempt to minimalize the Wright issue.

Grow up John.

Dan and Mary are having a civil discussion...you're adding nothing to it.

"though I like the sound of the Liberal Catholic Church, but there aren't any near my, I think the closest is out in VT or something"

Which churches in VT are considered "liberal Catholic", Dan? I've obviously heard the term before, but I didn't know there are churches that like officially call themselves that.

John 8:51am

Thank you for answering my question about the spiritual advisor but I can't see that Dan would be involved in satanic cults. I like and respect Dan very much and always enjoy our debates. He's very respectful to old ladies.

Bobby, its literally the Liberal Catholic Church and the Liberal Catholic Church International, I'm still trying to figure out the differences between the two myself in all honesty, but they are sounding good to me, they seem more spiritual than doctrine oriented, a bit similar to the idea behind the Orthodox Church, looking at the mysteries, looking at oneself, etc. It isnt associated with the Roman Catholic Church, they each stand alone though there was a schism between the two LCC at somepoint and im trying to research that.

John-

what's with the attacks lately? I feel I've had a few good discussions with you and all the sudden since I came back after (mostly) finishing the college process I feel like all you've done is gone after me when I try to have a discussion with you or someone else, I just dont get it.

Mary-

I would have to claim ignorance in many cases I'm sure. I did not attend mass often, typically a couple times a month at most. I liked the way he preached, and most of what was said in the church (though I did disagree fundamentally in some areas which ultimately led to my decision not to pursue Confirmation and pretty much leave the Catholic Church) but if I was told he said something inflammatory I personally would have to claim ignorance. I dont know how often Obama goes to Mass, I dont know how closely he followed his pastor so I cant truly make that judgement. I was satisfied with his explanation, and after listening to Wright's sermons I feel he was portrayed unfairly by the media.

As for a spiritual guide, McCain called Rod Parsley of Ohio just that. The one who has called Americans to wage a war against Islam and destroy it, (he has also compared the government to the Nazis for their tax support of PP, though I'm sure at least some of you will agree with that one) and said New Orleans was wiped out because the city was going to allow a gay pride parade (protected by the first amendment if they go through proper channels)on the day Katrina ended up hitting the city. He has said the gates of hell will open upon America, now does that sound damnation to you? Anyone else seeing a difference pretty much solely based on what is considered politically correct?

Mary-

Thanks for the compliment. You are very respectful as well and I always enjoy a good discussion, but I doubt you're old.

Anyone know where I could submit a picture for the who we are page?

Send it to Bethany at jamesnbethany@adelphia.net .

Thanks Bobby, I'll send it there :)

Let me try to get my arms around the prophet Obama's moral calculus. Bill Ayers, a serial bomber who has said he is sorry for nothing, except perhaps for not succeeding in wreaking more havoc, is morally equivalent to United States Senator Tom Coburn. Coburn's transgression? Apparently he had the temerity to suggest a just penalty be applied to those who after a law is passed outlawing abortion, nevertheless still proceed with their grisly trade.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, ABC News for letting the viewing public see the shallowness of candidate Obama's intellectually dishonest and shameless pandering to the MoveOn.org crowd.

I dont know how often Obama goes to Mass,

He's not Roman Catholic, there's no Mass. But I know what you mean....

Janet-

my mistake, services. I grew up in a Catholic family/home

Dan, if you thought we had a nice, friendly discussion, then you were mistaken. I don't have nice, friendly conversations with ridiculous, worthless liars. I was most likely using sarcasm to mock you and you mistook it for friendliness.

But I forgive you for that.

Just to be clear: Unlike the other pro-lifers on here, I don't like you pro-aborts. I don't like any of you. And I don't want to like any of you. I think that the entire lot of you are despicable, and I am not interested in having friendly chats with you unless or until you decide to stop supporting the greatest evil of the modern world. And I especially don't like ex-Catholics who are now pro-abortion activists. For you I have nothing but derisive scorn, you ignorant little boy.

Alright John. I'll be praying for you.

Don't waste your breath Dan.

Feel free to pray to Satan, or Obama, or whatever it is you pray to, Dan.

Love you too, Rae.

John-

I pray to my Lord and God, Father of Jesus Christ, perhaps you've heard of Him.

Oh John, you know I have nothing but absolute admiration and platonic love for you.

Dan, thanks for the continued lies, even now. I wouldn't expect anything more from you or any of your compatriots.

Rae, hugs and kisses forever.

Rae-

may as well not even bother at this point. I'm just awaiting the attack on my spirituality, the fact that I even pray or think I could possibly know or have any relationship with God, etc. May as well just let John talk to himself.

Hopefully I'll have the control to not respond after the attack I'm likely going to face. Ought to be interesting.

Oh, John, that is far, far too kind. Now you've got me all flustered, what's a girl to do?

ah, and there it is. Shorter and more subtle than I had expected. So be it.

Well, you don't really seem to get where I'm coming from, Dan. I'm not just arbitrarily attacking you. I'm calling you a complete fraud of a human being, because this is the impression I get of you. Hey, maybe I'm wrong. But that is what my intuition tells me. And I'm not usually wrong. Were I not one who believes in the right to life for all people, I would call you a waste of air. And I would mean it sincerely.

But the ideal situation would absolutely be for us to completely ignore each other and pretend that the other person doesn't exist. That is the best possible scenario, for certain.

I know you dont think you're arbitrarily attacking me, and honestly, I couldn't careless what you say about me, how you attack me, what you cling on to about me, and whether or not you despise me.

You're attacking a college bound 18 year old over the internet who is trying to have a rational discussion, which a majority here are capable of doing (regardless of whether or no they detest our views and thoughts).

You, however, seem to be content doing nothing more than attacking those who dont agree with you in every sense, which is just ridiculous. It accomplishes nothing but (possibly) brewing tensions and negative emotions among those here, and simply causes fights.

Luckily enough for me, I'm confident about who I am and what I believe. It may not fit your thoughts and absolute truths, and I'm fine with that. You are welcome to go after me and attack all you want, but be warned its a waste of time and energy, it's not going to have an effect. Believe me, I'm sure I've heard worse, not to mention the fact that it's the internet and the fact that there's some level of anonymity and its so impersonal contributes in some way to everything someone says.

So, enjoy your attacks on my thoughts, personality, and my faith. May God bless and forgive you.

Splendid, splendid, Dan. Now that you've gotten that stupid crap out of your system, we can just ignore each other. I'll go first.

Hey,

That got pretty ugly last night! Dan, I'd love to talk about what things (obviously other than the life issue) you have a problem with in the CC. Also, are your parents practicing now?

And if you're going to leave the CC, please, please, please don't go to a "Liberal Catholic Church", go to a protestant one. If you think you're confused now about your spirituality, you'll be totally at sea from a church like that!

But honestly, I think you should rethink some of your positions. You say you are an idealist, and I say, that at it's heart, the Catholic Church is idealist too. Think about it. The church asks a lot of the world. Most of it having to do with thinking higher thoughts and living up to a higher standard than the secular world.

You might want to talk to Bobby offsite. I'm sure he'd love for you to email him and start a private conversation.

Or me. Or Rae. Viva Idealism!

"You might want to talk to Bobby offsite. I'm sure he'd love for you to email him and start a private conversation."

I would love to if you're interested. You know how to reach me, Dan.

Bobby-

of course :)

as for the whole religion issue, I'm not confused per se, I know what I believe and think, and I've yet to find a church that does really represent me well enough that I feel I can become a true member. For me religion isn't something I feel I can disagree with something somewhere, kind of an all or nothing deal.

I say, that at it's heart, the Catholic Church is idealist too.

No doubt, Anon, no doubt.

Dan,

Concerning Parsley, from what I've read McCain only met him a few months ago and has never attended his church.
I'm a little perplexed as to how this man can be much of a spiritual guide or exactly what he considers a spiritual guide.
Obama tries to claim claim his ignorance of the beliefs and words of a man he listened to for 20 years while attending his church and proclaiming him a spiritual guide and mentor. This man also baptized the Obama children and married the Obamas. Its this supposed ignorance that has me highly skeptical.

You are a dear but yes I AM old. My frying pans are probably older than your mother.

John,

I think your decision to ignore Dan is in the best interests of you both. I find some of the anger you spew at him unsettling and I would agree no conversation is better than this type of exchange. Just a word to the wise though John, you draw more flies with honey than vinegar. And NO, I am not referring to anyone as flies! Its just an expression :)

Thanks for the words of wisdom, Mary. I say that with the utmost sincerity.

John,

You're entirely welcome. I also say that with the utmost sincerity.

ts white tonsil lumps on the http://free-home-video.net/blog/white-lumps-on-the-tonsil.html >on lumps brooke tonsil the white