"Pills or dinner?" was the subject heading of Planned Parenthood CEO Cecile Richards' email alert yesterday.

The premise is ridiculous: that due to rising prices of artificial female steroids, i.e., birth control pills, college nyphomaniacs are being forced to choose between illicit sex and eating.

Here's what happened. Legislators passed the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 to save $40 billion over 5 years. A consequence, according to U.S. News & World Report:

A quirk in a new federal law, designed to save taxpayers money on Medicaid reimbursements for drugs, has effectively persuaded pharmaceutical companies to stop selling their products to these [university] pharmacies at deeply discounted rates. (If companies continue to offer such discounts, the law stipulates, they will also receive lower payments from Medicaid.)

Shock: the government isn't buying the whining. In response to one request to restore the loophole, the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid wrote, according to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette...

We believe that there are already programs in place by which manufacturers can continue to make available drugs to the indigent and underinsured ...

Absolutely true.

One school, Carnegie Mellon, switched to offering generics, which cost about 1/4 what brand names do.

Why doesn't PP go the generics route? Because it wouldn't make as much profit, perhaps?

Anyway, here's Cecile's letter. Note the sexism. She places the entire financial responsibility for contraception on women. Why doesn't she demand that studs subsidize their sexual proclivities rather than see their muses starve to death?

Thanks to the spike in bc costs, another spike we may see here is in grades, the reason people attended college originally.

[HT: John Jansen of Pro-Life Action League]

The premise is ridiculous: that due to rising prices of artificial female steroids, i.e., birth control pills, college nyphomaniacs are being forced to choose between illicit sex and eating.
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"College nymphomaniacs?"

You got pregnant as an unwed 19-year-old, why are you so bitter towards women who are trying to be responsible?

Oh, Cecile. I pray for you daily...

You got pregnant as an unwed 19-year-old, why are you so bitter towards women who are trying to be responsible?

Popping a pill doesn't make unmarried sex responsible, rather it opens you up to a host of diseases, drama and heartache that is completely avoidable by choosing abstinence.

So why doesn't PP buy the generic and sell it anyway at the regular price of twenty to fifty bucks a pack? Then they make bigger profits.

So why doesn't PP buy the generic and sell it anyway at the regular price of twenty to fifty bucks a pack? Then they make bigger profits.

Posted by: Cranky Catholic at April 29, 2008 4:42 PM
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If we are using a brand name - rather than a generic - where I work, it's because the only competitive generic is produced someplace like China, and doesn't conform to the same quality standards.

What do they need pills for? What about condoms? Pills don't protect against STDs! Shouldn't they be using condoms instead?

Popping a pill doesn't make unmarried sex responsible, rather it opens you up to a host of diseases, drama and heartache that is completely avoidable by choosing abstinence.

Posted by: Jacqueline at April 29, 2008 4:41 PM
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Yeah, because we all know that a marriage certificate protects you from any kind of disease, drama and heartache.

Since when have students had the free time to mess around anyway? Or are American Colleges and Universities slacking off? Oh wait. What's that movie where there were no students in the classroom but only tape recorders... and there was no teacher... only a reel-to-reel machine playing the day's lecture?

Laura, I thought you knew that birth control pills don't block STDs. Are you spreading false medical information to women, resulting in them getting infected? Why are you so anti-science? Why are you so anti-woman? Think of the children, Laura, the children!

BTW, potential solution to the problem:

Birth Control - It's what's for dinner!

Just turn the BC pills into a meal. Like a diet milk shake! Yeah! I can just see the ads now:

"That's right, one shake a day is all you need to keep inconvenient babies out of your uterus! Keep those unwanted children away from you, and lose some of those unwanted pounds, too!"

You got pregnant as an unwed 19-year-old, why are you so bitter towards women who are trying to be responsible?

Popping a pill doesn't make unmarried sex responsible, rather it opens you up to a host of diseases, drama and heartache that is completely avoidable by choosing abstinence.

Posted by: Jacqueline at April 29, 2008 4:41 PM
.................

Sure Jackie. No female student could possibly be married. Any female that wishes to succeed in life has to be a nymphomaniac. You of course you will be dropping out just as soon as you find a man.

You of course you will be dropping out just as soon as you find a man.

Thanks, Sally. I love how you imply that the only reason I kick ass in the working and academic world is because I'm not yet married and how the second I get married, I will cease to be smarter and more successful than you.

Keep on dreaming, Sally. Keep on dreamin'...

So why doesn't PP buy the generic and sell it anyway at the regular price of twenty to fifty bucks a pack? Then they make bigger profits.

Posted by: Cranky Catholic at April 29, 2008 4:42 PM
.....................................................

It is illegal to produce generics before the patent runs out. Newer, more effective and safer BC will not have a generic. Even when a generic is available, only the A rated generic will be tested and approved as a bioequivalent.
If you have a bitch with profits from prescription drugs, your bitch is with the manufacturers holding the patents.

Ahhh yes, I love this mantra of Jills... ALL unmarried people who have sex are just nymphomaniacs. Its completely unfathomable that they are in healthy, loving, monogamous relationships.

And poor people should just NOT have sex ever. Because they shouldn't get cheap birth control to prevent having children they can't feed, but if they do have children, tough luck, because we all know welfare is just for lazy unemployed leeches, right?

John - myself and several other girls I know use condoms AND birth control. Its extra protection, so that we don't end up pregnant and perhaps seeking an abortion.

As for the "sexism" in placing financial responsibility on the girl to pay for birth control pills, I would ever even consider needing to be that dependent on a guy. I have my own job, I have my own money - and I'll take care of my own body and what I want to put in to it. If things were tough for me financially but I still wanted to take the pill, that would be MY burden to address. If I decide to stop taking it for whatever reason, and because of that, I have sex less often or not at all, tough patooties for him.

I lost my pill pack in Spain just 2 weeks ago on vacation, so I have to start over next week. So no sex on vacation, and no sex for another month. MY decision to make. Not his. Is that really sexist?

Gee, Sally, I would have thought that the '100% effective' BC pills from 10 years ago would be just as effective as the '100% effective' BC pills from today. And I thought they were all safe? Holy cow...! Thanks for informing us that not only were BC pills less effective 10 years ago, they were also less safe!

Laura, I thought you knew that birth control pills don't block STDs. Are you spreading false medical information to women, resulting in them getting infected? Why are you so anti-science? Why are you so anti-woman? Think of the children, Laura, the children!

Posted by: John Lewandowski at April 29, 2008 5:08 PM
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What the hell are you talking about?
When did I sat that birth control pills prevented STDs?

Thanks, Sally. I love how you imply that the only reason I kick ass in the working and academic world is because I'm not yet married and how the second I get married, I will cease to be smarter and more successful than you.

Keep on dreaming, Sally. Keep on dreamin'...

Posted by: Jacqueline at April 29, 2008 5:18 PM
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Well Jackie, since I had to put school off until I had successfuly raised my children, there may never be a comparison between my life and yours. You may never have children. You may remain a virgin the rest of your life and never experience the demands of a committed relationship.
Your lack of experiences in life hardly make you the spokesperson for female students or their needs.

Amen, Amanda, Amen. :)

EXACTLY how I feel. And with that new male birth control pill coming out, we'll see how men "step up". I know, personally, if my significant other won't step up and be a man and take a hit to his swimmers, no booty for him....whether or not we're married. It's never going to be him dealing with pregnancy, so I have the right to control when the action that leads to it occurs. If he misses a pill, he misses out on booty. Too bad. But I'll always have my pill to back it up, even if something goes wrong with his or vice versa. :)

Holy cow, Laura made a coherent post! I'm shocked - shocked!

Laura, you disagreed with Jacqueline's post in which she said that BC pills DON'T prevent disease!

Lyssie said: "I know, personally, if my significant other won't step up and be a man and take a hit to his swimmers, no booty for him...."

At least not from YOU... dun dun DUN!

Laura, you disagreed with Jacqueline's post in which she said that BC pills DON'T prevent disease!

Posted by: John Lewandowski at April 29, 2008 5:38 PM
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No, she said that unmarried sex opens you up to disease, drama and heartache.

haha Lyssie

I mentioned that to the bf... he says he's willing to try it. Like you though, I wouldn't go off of mine no matter how effective the male pill is. In addition to the extra peace of mind, you couldn't pay me enough money to go back to the cramps I used to have before I went on the pill. I used to end up missing 2 days of school curled up in a ball, and not even vicodin would help - I'd just throw it up.

Now that I have a real job I can't call out sick from 2 days a month, I can't even imagine...Uhhgg.

Its completely unfathomable that they are in healthy, loving, monogamous relationships.

Uh-huh. Sure, that's who Planned Parenthood targets! Monogamous people. Because those are the ones that require STD tests...

By the way, monogamous relationships are typically marriages. Just having sex with one person at a time is not monogamy- it's going steady.

I lost my pill pack in Spain just 2 weeks ago on vacation, so I have to start over next week. So no sex on vacation, and no sex for another month. MY decision to make.

No sex for a whole month? That's the first I've heard of a pro-choicer saying anything that implies that human beings could act rationally.

I thought pro-choicers believed that abstaining for any reason and any length of time would cause one's flesh to eat itself and limbs falling off and the whole universe screeching to a halt. Abstinence is against human nature! That we can't expect anyone to exercise control or restraint- especially not minors.

And poor people should just NOT have sex ever.

Your cycle is artificial, but mine is real and I know exactly when I could get pregnant and exactly when it's unlikely. A thermometer, a piece of paper and a pencil is better birth control than any pill, and significantly cheaper.

Because they shouldn't get cheap birth control to prevent having children they can't feed, but if they do have children, tough luck, because we all know welfare is just for lazy unemployed leeches, right?

So before cheap birth control, the world was in chaos with greater concentrations of poverty? No- people married and had a team to provide for the family.

Look at the rate of unmarried mothers of multiple children, who have to work at underpaid jobs and give 70% to day care. This age of legitimizing extramarital sex, even with the availability of birth control and condoms in gas station restrooms, has just led to more impoverished women.

The only responsible thing for PP - go generic. It's a no brainer, Cecile Richards.

Laura, are you feeling OK? You just made two reasonable, sane posts in a row.

Oh, John, you have such little regard for a woman who'd be assertive for what she believes is her right to prevent pregnancy. I'm sorry you'd cheat on a woman because she'd expect you to value her wishes to not be pregnant and wouldn't want to follow her rules for entering a sexual relationship, but I have faith that I have a man who's got a little bit more moral fortitude than you. In fact, HE'S the one who brought up the idea of the male birth control pill, and was rather excited to give thought to the idea of using it after I told him how it worked. Huh...a man that respects my wishes and wants to do everything in his power to protect me. The very same man that talks about our future and wants only the very best for our educations and career opportunities. Sorry, John, but you're way out of line on this one.

Gee, Sally, I would have thought that the '100% effective' BC pills from 10 years ago would be just as effective as the '100% effective' BC pills from today. And I thought they were all safe? Holy cow...! Thanks for informing us that not only were BC pills less effective 10 years ago, they were also less safe!

Posted by: John Lewandowski at April 29, 2008 5:28 PM
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Gee golly wiz John! See what happens when you get your information from polluted PL sources. Most people know that no medication of any kind is 100% effective for what they are intended. Most people also know that manufactures make no money when their patents run out therefore new and improved is a necessity. Obviously John Jansen doesn't understand issues that he feels qualified to remark upon. You playing dumb doesn't fix the ignorance.

Looks like I struck a nerve, Lyssie!

Yes, a virgin like me can't wait to cheat on a woman. How hilarious is that?

Actually, Sally, it's the pro-aborts (you guys) who have been saying for years that all you have to do is puts the kids on birth control and all will be fine. That's why it's funny that now you're telling us that these pills were even capable of being made "more effective" and "more safe". Capiche?

"Uh-huh. Sure, that's who Planned Parenthood targets! Monogamous people. Because those are the ones that require STD tests...

By the way, monogamous relationships are typically marriages. Just having sex with one person at a time is not monogamy- it's going steady. "

Uhh...right. Unmarried people can't be monogamous? So the fact that I've been with my boyfriend for several years, and neither us have been with another person makes us what exactly? While 1/4 of American men admit cheating on their WIVES? So noooo, no married people EVER need STD tests! Having a piece of paper makes them ...

INVINNNNNNNCIBLEE!

Its a bird
Its a plane

No... its..... SUPER MARRIAGE!!!!

People taking birth control faithfully produce way less pregnancies, which means many less abortions and unwanted children. You guys should be GIVING away BC.

* for some reaso my (letter betwee M ad B) is messed up

I said *ever

but you get what i said

Erin, surgical sterilization produces way fewer pregnancies, too. Should we support that?

Actually, Sally, it's the pro-aborts (you guys) who have been saying for years that all you have to do is puts the kids on birth control and all will be fine.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at April 29, 2008 5:55 PM
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Nope. No one has ever said that.

Oh, John, you'd say you'd struck a nerve whether or not I responded. You're the kind of people always saying that feminists hate men, but you're the one putting down your own sex by saying that any man who isn't a virgin is going to cheat on his partner. Because I happen to love the man I'm with, and he chooses to protect and value my opinions and body (which is apparently too much for your mind to handle-OMGZ ANY SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP WIF TEH BIRTH CONTROLZ HAZ TEH PROMISCUOUS CHEATING PARTNERS OMGZ), you're automatically going to judge. Unfortunately, your rude quips just made you look the fool, and your preconceived judgments of people reveal your bias. I'm sorry you don't believe you have a duty to someday respect the wishes of the woman you have sex with (and I don't judge you for wanting to remain a virgin, good for you), but whether you like it or not, she is the one dealing with the reality of pregnancy. She has a right to determine when the act that leads to it happens. And for someone who believes that NFP is the only viable option for controlling when pregnancy occurs, your notion of denying sex to the man in the relationship still applies. What keeps a man using NFP in the relationship with his wife (who tells him "no, we're not having sex tonight"), from cheating as well? Sorry, I don't buy the idea that a woman who says "no, not tonight honey, you forgot to take your pill" is any different than the woman who denies sex in NFP to her partner.

Erin, surgical sterilization produces way fewer pregnancies, too. Should we support that?

Posted by: John Lewandowski at April 29, 2008 5:58 PM
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Absolutely!

Right now it's nigh near impossible to get a tubal ligation or vasectomy is you're childless and/or under 35.
A recent survey showed that over 20% of female college students would get a TL if it was available. Why that option isn't availably to any American over 18 baffles me.

Last time I checked, Abstinence was free, there is little risk of STDs, AND you save a LOT of $ to buy food, which is a necessity of LIFE.

Promiscuous sex is NOT a necessity of LIFE.

Well Jackie, since I had to put school off until I had successfuly raised my children, there may never be a comparison between my life and yours.

Thank God! If my life looked like yours, that wouldn't say much about me.

You say that we can't compare our lives, but you can't accept the fact that perhaps I have just made better choices than you have. My life might be significantly easier than yours wasv since I will have children post-doc rather than raising them without the benefits of my education, but that doesn't proclude me from suggesting that it's not a good idea for others. It's worked quite well for me.

You may never have children.

So what...

You may remain a virgin the rest of your life

I reitterate- so what?

and never experience the demands of a committed relationship.

I've had several committed relationships, but if you mean marriage, maybe so. But I conclude with another hearty, "so what."

Not having yet had children or been married at 27 doesn't denengrate my life at all. Indeed, I'd rather be the way I am rather than like my classmates who all married and birthed in their teens and are all divorced, struggling single parents (as you probably were/are). I'm better off as I am than I could be if I made the short-sided choices you have.

Your lack of experiences in life hardly make you the spokesperson for female students or their needs.

Not all experiences are good. I haven't experienced crack whoredom, but I don't intend to start. I also haven't experienced recovering from an abortion, taking once daily valtrex, raising a child without an absentee father or a host of other complications that you invite when you choose to have sex outside of marriage. This doesn't make me inexperienced- It only makes me smarter than you.

By the way, I have been a female student for 4 years bachelors, 1.5 years masters and almost 2 years Ph.D., so I think I know what it's like to be a female student. Your bitterness about choices you've made and how that has made your life more of an unnecessary struggle than mine doesn't imply that I am inexperienced, only that you've jealous that I haven't had to sleep in the type of bed you made for yourself.

Having survived your bad choices doesn't entitle you to a cookie, Sally, or make you some expert on life. It only provides an example of what not to do.

"Erin, surgical sterilization produces way fewer pregnancies, too. Should we support that?"

For people who want it! Of course!!

every single male in my family had a vasectomy when they felt they had the number of kids they wanted... no complaints from anyone, AND it saves all of us from opening up the wrong drawer looking to borrow a pair of Mom's socks and finding condoms or pills...hahhaha

Liz- Sex is, though.

John- why not? I'd like to have a tubal litigation, but I'd NEVER be able to acquire one right now.

Laura, I find it ridiculous and condescending that someone can get breast implants when they turn 18 but aren't allowed to decide they want to have a tubal ligation, because society "knows better". There are a few women I know that would get a tubal ligation in a heartbeat (one of which is my roommate). Her reason is a good one-her job, and her dream, is to travel ALL OVER THE WORLD, hardly conducive to bearing and raising children. She doesn't discount marrying one day, but she has never entertained the possibility of children. But since she's 20, no one would ever consider letting her have a tubal ligation so that she can make sure her career is uninterrupted, even if she gets married.

Deliberate sterilization is a VERY selfish motive. Its all about the ME ME ME world.

Sex to reproduce to continue the human race is necessary, sex without TRUE LOVE (promiscuity) is NOT.

Your bitterness about choices you've made and how that has made your life more of an unnecessary struggle than mine doesn't imply that I am inexperienced, only that you've jealous that I haven't had to sleep in the type of bed you made for yourself.
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Sally's stupid choice?

She believed all of that moronic "mommy daddy baby" crap, became a stay-at-home mom, and believed that her husband would honor his marriage vows.
I know many women who also made that stupid mistake and are truly sorry they did.

Actually, Sally, it's the pro-aborts (you guys) who have been saying for years that all you have to do is puts the kids on birth control and all will be fine. That's why it's funny that now you're telling us that these pills were even capable of being made "more effective" and "more safe". Capiche?

Posted by: John Lewandowski at April 29, 2008 5:55 PM
..................................

You apparently do some very selective reading. All BC has a failure rate. It is a portion of PL that insist that no one using it correctly could ever get pregnant. The rest of you would simply wish to outlaw sex outside of marriage and mandate any conception within marriage be gestated regardless of the wishes concerning the actual people involved. Just imagine the drop in marriages and birth rates if you got your way. Not to mention divorces and illegal abortions. It sure would give you morality Nazis busy work.

So someone in a marriage who has a tubal ligation is selfish, even if both partners are in agreement and are happy with the decision...oh, I get it. Liz, there will always be people who want to get pregnant and have children. The human race is in NO DANGER of dying out. Sorry, but saying that a couple who decides not to have kids is "selfish"...(selfish to whom? There isn't a child to be SELFISH toward!), is extraordinarily judgmental. Selfish to the human race to not procreate? Then start yelling at nuns and priests...they're not even having sex! How selfish to exist and not procreate! "YOU SHOULD HAVE KIDS BECAUSE IT'S YOUR DUTY TO THE HUMAN RACE, YOU SELFISH *SSHOLE!" Can't you see how insulting that is?

Lyssie and Laura -

my sister was able to get one this year (she's 24), though she started bringing it up to my parents when she was probably 19.

the doctor made her go to a counselor first though - because you know - women who don't want children need to be psychoanalyzed... but women who want fake boobs, a fake nose, and fake lips are just perfectly fine.

Anyways - in the end, it was a positive experience for her.

Omg, Amanda, I KNOW! That's so ridiculous... OF COURSE WOMEN WHO DON'T WANT KIDS ARE ABSOLUTELY NUTS. They definitely need counseling....but step right up for your "wham bam thank you ma'am" nose job, because society socializes you to think you're not "good enough" and you need to change the way you look to be acceptable. Sorry, someone who undergoes plastic surgery to look more like a movie star has a lot more issues than someone who undergoes a tubal ligation to prevent something that can throw off their entire lives.

Liz.........erm......I don't even know what to say to that. We aren't anywhere on the same level.

Liz- wouldn't you say sterilization is a better choice than not using any form of protection or birth control?

Yes Liz...

my parents deciding together that after 3 kids, having another one would make it impossible for them to do horrible selfish things like keeping us all fed and clothed, pay their mortgage in a town with good schools, provide experiences which have enriched our lives and bonded us as a family, put us all through college, and help us out whenever we needed anything...

God...what a bunch of selfish, self absorbed evil people my parents are...

Deliberate sterilization is a VERY selfish motive. Its all about the ME ME ME world.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at April 29, 2008 6:15 PM
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...And why did you have kids?
Because YOU wanted them? Because YOU love them? Because they make YOU happy?
Sounds like it's all about YOU.
How selfish.

Yeah, Amanda....my parents are evil, selfish bastards too...they waited TEN YEARS AFTER BEING MARRIED to have me, because they couldn't afford it. Just think of all the kids they could have had in that time if they hadn't been so evil and self-centered! I could have 7 more siblings, and my 'rents would be better people, with no money, no business, no accomplishments, and no ability to put my brother and I through college. I hate my parents for their selfishness!!

my parents deciding together that after 3 kids, having another one would make it impossible for them to do horrible selfish things like keeping us all fed and clothed, pay their mortgage in a town with good schools, provide experiences which have enriched our lives and bonded us as a family, put us all through college, and help us out whenever we needed anything...

Amanda, that's a bad trade-off. You don't realize it, but it's true. Yep, you had worldly comforts, but siblings last forever. And you might justify their unwillingness to share themselves with more children by the fact that they could give you more, but the things you got were temporary.

I was raised in a family of 4 with plenty of money. We traveled constantly, experienced other cultures, had money for college and money to bail us out of our troubles and irresponsibilities if we needed it.

So what? Siblings are forever- they're priceless. No worldly luxury could replace them.

My friends raised in large families but dirt poor are wealthier than I, because they have eachother. They work for what they earn- college included, and are all the better for it. My sister went to college on my parents till she was 28. She'd wreck a car, they'd provide her a new one. How is this good?

My ex-boyfriend who has 5 sibling has a house are full of laughter and grandbabies and neices and nephews and cousins. My friends with 9 boys have the same thing.

You and I might have memories and photos of exotic vacations and other worldly comforts, but we don't have lots of family to stick by us, help us care for our parents as they age and know us since birth.

Your parents chose less work (less children) and financial comfort for themselves and you and your siblings. Even if you don't believe in an eternity where only your soul goes with you, it's still a foolish trade-off to pick a career, money or worldly comforts that last a short while over a lifetime of love.

Having survived your bad choices doesn't entitle you to a cookie, Sally, or make you some expert on life. It only provides an example of what not to do.

Posted by: Jacqueline at April 29, 2008 6:09 PM

..........................................

Bingo Jackie! I advise every young woman to attain self sufficiency before having children. Married or not. Abortion may at some point become an option to that goal. Not everyone manages to avoid emotional intimacy until education goals are accomplished. Most would not want to. Because you have, doesn't earn you a cookie either darling. Being fearful of commitments and unwilling to risk rejection doesn't make you smart.
No one is jealous of you Jackie. What do you believe that you have that anyone would want?
And your lack of life experience doesn't make you smarter for having avoided life. It just makes you less experienced.

LOL - yeah Anon, because my life is SO robbed of love having ONLY two siblings... if I had 9 and lived in a double wide and never got to go to college, my life would be SOOOO much better.

Thats great that lots of people you know had lots of money. My parents didn't.

they waited TEN YEARS AFTER BEING MARRIED to have me, because they couldn't afford it.

It depends on how much you think you need. If they thought you two had to have your own rooms and they had to put you through college, then they couldn't afford it...But those things aren't necessary.

Some people don't want to have babies unless they can do it with financial ease and comfort. This doesn't mean they can't afford it.

My dad was working two full-time jobs (because as a machinist in the 80's, work was hard to come by and lay-offs were a constant worry). In between two jobs, he'd come home to lay foundations for the business he and my mother were starting. She had the only job with benefits, working late into her pregnancy with me (prior to her pregnancy, life was still hard-knocks). My first room as a baby was shared with my grandmother. Too bad my parents couldn't have worked harder, they could have had a bunch of babies sooner! (Actually, it was the priest my father consulted that told him to stop working so hard, and to delay any added stressors, such as getting my mom pregnant.)

LOL - yeah Anon, because my life is SO robbed of love having ONLY two siblings... if I had 9 and lived in a double wide and never got to go to college, my life would be SOOOO much better.

Anon was me. I never said your life is robbed of love, only that more siblings could love you more than your college education or any comforts you may have had.

Yanno, people go to college without paying having others pay for it. I didn't, but many did and those that did tend to value it more. You could have worked your way through like my father or my friends did. I'm sorry that you think sharing your parent's money with more siblings would have been so traumatic.

Likewise- I'd take a double-wide full of people who love eachother with no frills than a nice, plush house devoid of family, where every man snips himself rather than having to share any of his money.

Thats great that lots of people you know had lots of money. My parents didn't.

I never implied these big families are rich. They're not. They make sacrifices for eachother- share rooms and clothes, take care of one another and pay for their own luxuries. And they're better for it.

If your parents could pay for your college and all of these activities to bond you as a family, don't claim that you were raised poor.

Jacquie, nothing wrong with wanting to provide your children with the best in life, even if that means providing for their education.

This is such a strange way to phrase the problem that PP believes exists, even from the point of view of the pro-choicer. If one can barely afford to eat, they're on an extremely tight budget. Even with perfect pill use, break through ovulation is still possible and hence pregnancy is possible. So then, what, you have to shell out $300 for an abortion? How can someone who barely has enough money to eat afford $300 for an abortion? It's like the idea of not having sex just simply isn't an option. It's totally not even on the radar. If money is so tight, why even in the first place engage in unnecessary behavior that could result in having to pay $300 or more? I mean, if I can't afford health care at the moment, I"m not going to continue playing football or wrestling or some other activity that could result in injury if the activity isn't necessary. I really feel like this is common sense that anyone, regardless of where they stand on the issue, can get behind.

"Anon was me. I never said your life is robbed of love, only that more siblings could love you more than your college education or any comforts you may have had."

Yes, because clearly the love I get from my two siblings isn't enough... I need MORE LOVE!!! Love to pay my rent!! OH WAIT!! Life doesn't work that way, awww shucks! Guess I'll have to get a job, and gosh, that required one of those gosh darned edumacations. Can I get a bachelors degree in extra sibling love to get a job that will allow me to become independent and have a family of my own some day?? Please??

Sex is always on the menu. People are biologically inclined to want to have sex pretty much all the time. They're trying to help prevent situations where a pregnancy could spell disaster. Because people are ALWAYS going to have sex with each other, whether they're poor, or married, or not.

People like sex. You can't forbid it. So better to make it safe than just let preventable issues reign.

The voice of calm reasoning has finally sounded.

Thank you, Bambino.

Things were getting a little shrill here.

Bingo Jackie! I advise every young woman to attain self sufficiency before having children.

Really? Because you attempt to degrade and condascend me and claim I haven't experienced life because I've made this choice that you advise. Had I chosen to have sex, have babies, put off school, etc. you'd have no means with which to debunk my arguments.

Not everyone manages to avoid emotional intimacy until education goals are accomplished.

I haven't. Because I haven't married doesn't mean I haven't loved or been loved. It means that I haven't found everything I want. I certainly could have married someone I loved that I wasn't sure was right for me and gotten cheated on like you. How would that be wise?

Because you have, doesn't earn you a cookie either darling.

I haven't.

Being fearful of commitments and unwilling to risk rejection doesn't make you smart.

I'm not- I just don't make commitments lightly, since divorce is not something I want to endure. I don't want to end up like you did, cheated on, bitter and divorced. Once again, this just makes me smarter than you.

No one is jealous of you Jackie. What do you believe that you have that anyone would want?

See, that's what I want to know about you! Why do you think I envy your "experiences" that caused you to become so bitter? I assumed you think I want kids and were trying to rub it in my face that you have kids and I don't. I was merely pointing out that anything you have, I can have to, only without the dried up angst and emotional scarring.

And your lack of life experience doesn't make you smarter for having avoided life.

I haven't avoided life, just the problems associated with the poor choices you made.

It just makes you less experienced.

Okay- you're old and been around the block. I'm young and conscientious, so I'm less experienced. Fine with me.

John - myself and several other girls I know use condoms AND birth control. Its extra protection, so that we don't end up pregnant and perhaps seeking an abortion.

Amanda,
Maybe I am getting you confused with someone else, but didn't you have an abortion???

Jacquie, nothing wrong with wanting to provide your children with the best in life, even if that means providing for their education.

I agree! But I don't think people should act like providing a child with the best "stuff" is more virtuous than providing them with more family.

Bobby -

I agree that its not too bright to have unprotected sex just because you can't afford the pill, and I think, as I've said repeatedly, NARAL and who ever is in charge of the PP press releases just LOVE to make everything sound like a panic situation...most of the time, its not.

that being said though, in this particular case, its no more silly than people complaining about gas prices. When something is affordable for a long time, and then suddenly the price goes through the roof - people are going to get upset and bitch about it. I think thats just a natural reaction.

Sandy -

Nope. Never been pregnant.

I worked with high risk teens though, some pregnant and keeping their babies, others who'd had abortions, and I mention them a lot so thats what might have you confused.

Yes, because clearly the love I get from my two siblings isn't enough... I need MORE LOVE!!! Love to pay my rent!! OH WAIT!! Life doesn't work that way, awww shucks! Guess I'll have to get a job, and gosh, that required one of those gosh darned edumacations. Can I get a bachelors degree in extra sibling love to get a job that will allow me to become independent and have a family of my own some day?? Please??

Amanda, you brag about your self-sufficiency. Surely you could have gotten an education on your own withour your parents paying for it! Siblings don't threaten your ability to pay rent. Mine has even helped me a time or two.

Amanda, it's clear what you value. We have different values. You see sharing with siblings as a threat to you having the stuff you want. I see having siblings as a blessing and I'd have been delighted to share. Yes, not having all the money and having to work my way through school might not have been as much fun or comfortable, but I'd trade those comforts for siblings relationships. You might can make good friends, but they'll never know you as long or as well as your siblings do.

I said deliberately sterilizing yourself, and I meant for NON medical reasons. Wanting to advance a career and not have a pregnancy interrupt your plans to buy a luxury car and/or go to Europe every year would be a selfish reason.

I have a cousin who had to have a hysterectomy (4 months ago) at age 28 because she was given a cancer causing STD by a former boyfriend. She's very lucky she was able to have three children before she had to have the surgery.

There's a difference between providing a house and food and clothing for a family (necessities) and not being able to control yourself because you're addicted to sex (what planned parenthood sells) and desperately need a pill because you're afraid you'll get pregnant. (Referring to the topic of this blog post about the desperate need for pills because college aged women can't control themselves).

My dad and my mom both grew up in families with 7 children. My dad grew up on a farm and learned to be a hard worker from an early age.

My mom grew up in a small town and had maybe one indoor bathroom for all of them (her youngest brother was born when she was 15 I think).

Right, because its all about the quantity of siblings you have, and not the relationship you develop with how ever many you may have.

Because I'm glad my parents could put me through college and help me see the world, and I'm not weeping over my mom's wasted eggs, I am selfish and only value "stuff"

Boy you've really got me figured out.

Omg, Amanda, I KNOW! That's so ridiculous... OF COURSE WOMEN WHO DON'T WANT KIDS ARE ABSOLUTELY NUTS. They definitely need counseling....but step right up for your "wham bam thank you ma'am" nose job, because society socializes you to think you're not "good enough" and you need to change the way you look to be acceptable. Sorry, someone who undergoes plastic surgery to look more like a movie star has a lot more issues than someone who undergoes a tubal ligation to prevent something that can throw off their entire lives.

Posted by: Lyssie at April 29, 2008 6:27 PM

Gee, how about the "wham bam thank you ma'am" abortion? Did you forget about that?

I find it interesting that if a woman wants plastic surgery, she must go in for a consultation, and btw, counseling, then a pre-op appointment, etc... but if you want an abortion, (which is a life changing experience) you just show up on a Tuesday and voila, instant abortion.

This is such a strange way to phrase the problem that PP believes exists, even from the point of view of the pro-choicer. If one can barely afford to eat, they're on an extremely tight budget. Even with perfect pill use, break through ovulation is still possible and hence pregnancy is possible. So then, what, you have to shell out $300 for an abortion? How can someone who barely has enough money to eat afford $300 for an abortion? It's like the idea of not having sex just simply isn't an option. It's totally not even on the radar. If money is so tight, why even in the first place engage in unnecessary behavior that could result in having to pay $300 or more? I mean, if I can't afford health care at the moment, I"m not going to continue playing football or wrestling or some other activity that could result in injury if the activity isn't necessary. I really feel like this is common sense that anyone, regardless of where they stand on the issue, can get behind.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at April 29, 2008 6:59 PM
................................................................................

Interesting that you equate pregnancy to a sports injury. Strange but interesting.

Not quite Sally. I'm making a comparison of cost-risk management that I was hoping a pro-choicer could relate to.

(Off-Topic but Satisfying)
http://www.kansascity.com/115/story/596178.html

Court tosses outs Kline subpoena for abortion reports from Planned Parenthood
By DIANE CARROLL
The Kansas City Star
Johnson County District Attorney Phill Kline lost his bid Monday to obtain state abortion reports, but he said that would not stop his criminal prosecution of Planned Parenthood.

At the request of the Kansas Department of Health and Environment, District Judge Stephen Tatum quashed a subpoena Kline served on the department on March 24.

Under the law, Tatum said, the information Kline sought can be disclosed only to the state attorney general or the state Board of Healing Arts for use in a criminal or disciplinary investigation.

“The court finds that the subpoena at issue here would require the disclosure of privileged or protected matter and that no exception or waiver applies,” Tatum stated. “As a result the court must quash the subpoena.”

Kline had subpoenaed 23 reports regarding late-term abortions performed in 2003 at Planned Parenthood’s Comprehensive Health clinic in Overland Park. He wanted the department to provide them or to authenticate a copy he already has from his investigation of Planned Parenthood while state attorney general.

Planned Parenthood President Peter Brownlie, who contends that the case is politically motivated, praised the ruling.

“We believe that it will make it very difficult for this prosecution to continue,” Brownlie said, “and we hope it will end sooner rather than later.”

Kline, however, said Planned Parenthood officials had called his case dead many times. But each time he has presented it, he said, a judge has found probable cause to proceed.

At a news conference in his office, Kline contended that the statute did not prohibit district attorneys from receiving the information. He said the information in the reports should not be considered privileged because the reports did not have identifying patient information.

Planned Parenthood attorneys contend that the records need to be protected even with the names and dates of birth redacted.

Kline, who began investigating Planned Parenthood five years ago while state attorney general, filed criminal charges last fall. The 107-count complaint accuses Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid Missouri and its Comprehensive Health clinic of falsifying abortion records, failing to maintain records, failing to determine the viability of fetuses before abortions and providing illegal late-term abortions in 2003.

A preliminary hearing is scheduled for May 27 and 28.

Getting the Department of Health and Environment reports would have been convenient, Kline said. However, he said, he can proceed without them because he already has a copy that is legally in his possession. Kline said he transferred those reports to the Johnson County District attorney’s office in January 2007 with the permission of Shawnee County District Judge Richard Anderson.

Anderson, who oversaw Kline’s investigation of Planned Parenthood while Kline was attorney general, testified earlier this year in Tatum’s court that he had suspected that the records provided by Planned Parenthood had been falsified.

Planned Parenthood attorney Pedro Irigonegaray said the Department of Health and Environment reports in Kline’s possession were never authenticated. And because the department never verified them, he said, Kline cannot introduce them as evidence.

Kline disagrees. He said he can lay the legal foundation for the documents through testimony from witnesses who handled them.

In court, Irigonegaray told Tatum that he planned to introduce a motion this week asking for the dismissal all felony charges and some of the misdemeanor charges.

Next page >

Okay- you're old and been around the block. I'm young and conscientious, so I'm less experienced. Fine with me.

Posted by: Jacqueline at April 29, 2008 7:08 PM
......................................

You sound bitterly afraid of life in general Jackie. Like if you follow all the rules nothing icky will ever happen to you. It doesn't work like that. Things will happen to you that are out of your control.
I regret nothing in my life. Everything I have gone through has added to the complexity of who I am. That you assume to judge my choices as being bad, really makes you a fool. You haven't the experience or the wisdom to speak to my generation.
Thankfully even snarky little girls today have more choices than I did. Including remaining a virgin the rest of your life without being sent off to a convent.

I know what you're saying, Amanda. I guess I was just trying to point out the absurdity of the way PP is dealing with this, which apparently you somewhat agree. God love you.

The Republican Party Platform's right-to-life plank logically implies that women who have abortions should be executed for first-degree murder.

Laura,
Why do you automatically take the position that PP has done nothing wrong? Why is this article satisfying to you? If you have ever read any of the testimonies from former abortion clinic owners, they fess up to the fact that they falsified records all the time. If you want safe legal abortions and an abortion clinic is breaking the law I would think you would be the first to rally behind making sure these clinics were operating above the law.

Lila Rose has outted PP twice now.

But go ahead and continue to drink the kool-aid.

BTW, why are you here again? Still can't figure out why you came back.

Oh yes, because all college girls who use birth control are total nymphos.

How funny.

I can list about 5 people off the top of my head who are...VIRGINS...and use the pill to regulate their periods, myself included.

Honestly Jill...*shakes head*

Many women who have abortions are victims (Told they won't be able to complete college, coerced by parents or the father of the baby, maybe by the father's parents). Some women suffer health side effects like subsequent pregnancies being premature births.

I'm not republican or democrat (I hate the junk mail I receive during election time.) (I am a registered voter, though, with no affiliation).

It's the money hungry doctors that should go to jail. And I don't know any pro-lifers that believe a woman should be executed for abortion. I think the women who suffers after abortion (emotionally, physically, mentally) has suffered enough.

The abortionist on the other hand, is in it to make $, not to help women. They should go to jail for life.

And the reason I can only list 5 people is because I don't know a lot of people. :D 5 people for me is a lot of people...lol.

While PP is at it, maybe they should tag team with college bar owners and have congress pass a law that would basically cover the cost of alcohol. Top shelf preferable. I would hate to see college students have to pass a night of binge drinking just because they can't afford it.

Many women graduate without the need of birth control pills, never get pregnant or wind up with and STD?

Shocking!!!!!

Hey Rae,
Have Bethany give you my e-mail or visa versa.
Can't wait to meet you! We need to connect with Carla too!

Rae,

I know, right?

Canada.

That is all. :)

Our home and native land!

Wait a minute here! I didn't read the fine print!

What is this, Jill? Is it true? I am on the pill and having sex outside of marriage... and that means I am a nymphomaniac?

I should see someone about this. I had no idea it was this serious! I had no idea about... about... ANYTHING!!!! *sobs*

I think I have never been so astounded with a person's horrifying blanket judgments since the whole "the Jews caused the depression in Germany" thing back in the day. Sheesh.

@Sandy: kendranoelle@hotmail.com

Bobby... if you weren't married and if I weren't in a serious relationship, I would SO fall in love with you. :)

Lyssie said: "Sorry, I don't buy the idea that a woman who says "no, not tonight honey, you forgot to take your pill" is any different than the woman who denies sex in NFP to her partner."

I got a pro-abort to defend NFP. I think hell just froze over.

John, you honestly have nothing to refute my statements with, so you resort to unfounded name calling. In fact, and it is about time I said something, my views are much in parallel with our lovely Rae's, and I hold nothing against people who wish to use NFP. In fact, I'm as pro-choice as it comes when it comes to PREVENTING pregnancy, but if you know anything about Rae, I pretty much agree with her about the ways one deals with pregnancy when it has already happened. But as I said, you can't refute my logic, in which a woman who decides to assert herself and withhold sex in a relationship should be able to for whatever reason, including during fertile times in NFP or when her partner or herself forgets to take the pill. As she is the only one who intimately deals with the rigors of pregnancy, she has the right to control when the act that leads to it happens. Sorry if men can't handle that...apparently you don't believe they can. I have a little more faith in the decency of men, but if it's coming straight from the horse's mouth, so-to-speak, should I really be afraid?

A recent survey showed that over 20% of female college students would get a TL if it was available. Why that option isn't availably to any American over 18 baffles me.

Posted by: Laura at April 29, 2008 6:05 PM

My understanding is that doctors are very reluctant to do this to young women because many women later change their minds. This operation is not so successfully reversed. It is also not without complications.

A recent survey showed that over 20% of female college students would get a TL if it was available. Why that option isn't availably to any American over 18 baffles me.

Laura, where did you see this survey? Do they NEVER want to have kids, or just plan to deal with that problem later?

Sheesh, Lyssie, defensive much? Of course I believe that men can control themselves - I believe in NFP, don't I?

*nudge*

By the way, John, that's impetus for an apology. You can even ask MK. Show me one "pro-abortion" post I've made in the past three months and I'll give you a pat on the back (although I'm not sure how close I want to get....you don't seem to have had much female interaction). You've been a real ass here lately, and I don't appreciate it as you're obviously too incompetent and blinded by your "if it supports birth control, it's a pro-abort" logic. Get over yourself, good for you that you're a virgin (getting kind of tired of your constant reminders that you're pure as the driven snow...really, good for you, should I give you a lollipop for being a good boy?), and quit being a rotten asshole. Capiche?

Lyssie,

In John's mind, unless you feel EXACTLY the same way he does about these things, you're just a rotten pro abort who is lying if you say you have ANY views that lean towards opposing abortion.

You're opinions aren't actually complex or multi dimensional and worthy of legitimate debate Lyssie, you're just being dishonest.

Oh, and if you feel strongly about anything, you're just "hyperventilating" and "insane".

Isn't it reassuring to just know that whatever you say, you already know that you are wrong and John is right?

Of course, Amanda, I see the light.

But I still want an answer as to the question that if a man in an NFP relationship can deal with not having sex, why can't a man in a relationship with dual birth control methods control himself? (Because anyone who uses birth control is immoral already, and has no trouble cheating? Sure, THAT'S a gross lumping of all BC users together.) In both, the woman has the right to put the kibosh on sexual activity until she is comfortable. Both have failure rates. Yet in only one, to John, is the man trustworthy. I'm calling one hundred percent bullsh*t on that.

Laura, where did you see this survey? Do they NEVER want to have kids, or just plan to deal with that problem later?

Posted by: Janet at April 29, 2008 10:24 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There's just a lot of women who don't want children.
The numbers for American women in their 40s who have never given birth hovers around 20%
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/24/national/main579973.shtml
If you break it down by the latest census numbers, the number of childless White American women over 45 is close to 30%, and for Asian American women it's over 30%.
For the first time in American history, there are more homes with no children under 18 than there are homes with childen:
http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/column-one/07-16-07-adult-focused.htm
There are just a lot of us out there.

Thanks for that survey, Laura. Very informative. Although the second might be somewhat biased.

Lyssie - I'd like that answer too, not just from John, but also Jill, who claims its "sexist" that responsibility is put on women to be in charge of contraception.

So lets get this straight:

A woman choosing to take birth control pills who takes the responsibility to pay for them herself = sexist

A woman choosing to use NFP as contraception who takes the responsibility to monitor her cycle herself = WAAAYYYY more moral than all of those "nymphomaniacs" on birth control pills.

Birth control failure rate = a reason not to take birth control

NFP failure rate = psshht....what failure rate?? you doubt the infallible power of NFP? You must just be a rotten pro abort.

LizfromNebraska, you wrote: "Some women suffer health side effects like subsequent pregnancies being premature births. "

Not from having abortions. Abortion does not increase the likelihood of subsequent premature birth. You are repeating a right-to-life myth.

You wrote: "Many women who have abortions are victims (Told they won't be able to complete college, coerced by parents or the father of the baby, maybe by the father's parents)."

This should excuse them from guilt for killing their babies? Many murderers have very convincing reasons for committing murder. It doesn't excuse them from guilt.

If abortion is murder, why not execute the woman who procures one like any other murderer?

LOL Amanda, right on!

SOMG wrote: "Abortion does not increase the likelihood of subsequent premature birth. You are repeating a right-to-life myth."

Well, shall we change the terminology, then? One of the causes of cervical incompetence listed ALL OVER the internet is a D&C.
One site I found (vhi healthcare) says this: "Trauma to the cervix such as might be caused during a dilatation and curettage (D&C - where the lining of the uterus is lightly scraped away) or induced abortion."

The 2005 Moreau study was reported on not just in pro-life circles, but across the globe. The Telegraph (UK) said the following:
"Dr Moreau said: 'Clearly there is a link. The results suggest that induced abortion can damage the cervix in some way that makes a premature birth more likely in subsequent pregnancies."

Her study compared the medical histories of 2,219 women with babies born at less than 34 weeks with another 618 who had given birth at full term. Overall, women who had had an abortion were 40 per cent more likely to have a very pre-term delivery (less than 33 weeks) than those without such a history. The risk of an extremely premature baby - one born at less than 28 weeks - was raised even more sharply, by 70 per cent. Abortion appeared to increase the risk of most major causes of premature birth, including premature rupture of membranes, incorrect position of the foetus on the placenta and spontaneous early labour. The only common cause of premature birth not linked to abortion was high blood pressure.'"

Kel, when you're dealing with small numbers you get statistical noise. There's probably another small study somewhere that shows abortion PROTECTS subsequent pregnancies from premature birth. Also statistical noise.

To get meaningful results on a question like this you'd have to follow a whole country like the Melbye breast cancer study.

From the NYTimes:

Dr. Ayala, a former Dominican priest, said he told his audiences not just that evolution is a well-corroborated scientific theory, but also that belief in evolution does not rule out belief in God. In fact, he said, evolution “is more consistent with belief in a personal god than intelligent design. If God has designed organisms, he has a lot to account for.”

Consider, he said, that at least 20 percent of pregnancies are known to end in spontaneous abortion. [Probably many more than that --SoMG]If that results from divinely inspired anatomy, Dr. Ayala said, “God is the greatest abortionist of them all.”

Or consider, he said, the “sadism” in parasites that live by devouring their hosts, or the mating habits of insects like female midges, tiny flies that fertilize their eggs by consuming their mates’ genitals, along with all their other parts.

For the midges, Dr. Ayala said, “it makes evolutionary sense. If you are a male and you have mated, the best thing you can do for your genes is to be eaten.” But if God or some other intelligent agent made things this way on purpose, he said, “then he is a sadist, he certainly does odd things and he is a lousy engineer.”

Dr. Ayala, a former Dominican priest,.......

Say no more......biased source.

Hmm... I'd get a TL if I could. I don't think it makes me selfish in the least. And if I ever regretted my situation, I could always adopt. Right now though, I'm relying on a combo of BC and condoms, and in the... umm... let's see now, 5 or so years I've been sexually active, I've never had an STD or gotten pregnant. I'm not "bitter" about any of my past relationships or sexual partners. I wish them all the best. :)

I really don't see what the big deal about sex is anyway. For all the dramatics about it, it's quite a natural experience. It's not life shaking. You don't turn into a different person afterward. Nothing really happens at all ... except ... you lose your "virginity." Wow. (According to proper translations of the Bible, "virgin" was a term for an unmarried woman or young woman, not a woman who hasn't had sex. Silly how we distort translations to fit our aims...)

Besides, I would rather get in all the sex I want before I get married. I hear the sex life kinda dies down after that... sucky.

When I think about my sexual history, I feel really happy, actually. I wish I could be all devastated and like "OMG SEX RUINED ME" but it didn't. I think I'm less stressed out, calmer, healthier and well... just happier! Although maybe that explains why I've been grumpy lately. Time to pounce the BF!

(Lolz, did I gross out the PLers or should I be more explicit next time?)

Edyt: According to proper translations of the Bible, "virgin" was a term for an unmarried woman or young woman, not a woman who hasn't had sex. Silly how we distort translations to fit our aims...)

There's logic to it, look at it this way: In biblical days girls married at 12 or 14 years old. A virgin was a term for an unmarried woman or young woman, OK. Girls were so young when they married, they were almost without a doubt not having sex before marriage. This may explain how the term may have evolved to it's current usage to describe a woman of any age who hasn't had sex.

Besides, I would rather get in all the sex I want before I get married. I hear the sex life kinda dies down after that... sucky.

It doesn't have to be that way. Marriage brings change to the relationship, but that's all part of the maturing process of a loving relationship. The sex part may become a little less important, but the marital bond becomes stronger as time passes. Have you ever seen a couple who've been married 50 years sitting next to each other smiling, holding hands? Now, that's true love.

Edyt: Explicit about what?

There's logic to it, look at it this way: In biblical days girls married at 12 or 14 years old. A virgin was a term for an unmarried woman or young woman, OK. Girls were so young when they married, they were almost without a doubt not having sex before marriage. This may explain how the term may have evolved to it's current usage to describe a woman of any age who hasn't had sex.

Hmm... that explanation makes sense, Janet. Was Mary 12-14 when she gave birth? (Perhaps we should make the movies more historically accurate and use younger actresses) And what about some of the unmarried, older women? If they were (by our standards) virgins, would they not be labeled so just because they were older?

It doesn't have to be that way. Marriage brings change to the relationship, but that's all part of the maturing process of a loving relationship. The sex part may become a little less important, but the marital bond becomes stronger as time passes. Have you ever seen a couple who've been married 50 years sitting next to each other smiling, holding hands? Now, that's true love.

And I admire them for it. :) I feel kinda like that in my relationship now. Of course, it's not as deep as someone who's been married 50 years, but I really consider this guy my best friend on top of lover/great cook/comedian/geek/other endearing traits.

You know, some nights just playing video games together is a form of intimacy. I don't really rate sex as being more intimate than things like that, or kissing, or anything, because what's important is the intention behind it. That's why an elderly married couple can be completely intimate just holding hands, and they don't need to have sex to prove that.

Edyt:
I'm glad something I said today made some sense. Lol.:) Maybe someone who has more knowledge of biblical translation could check the translation of "virgin" in the bible. (Re: your 1:53 post)

I'm glad you have a boyfriend who's your best friend. That's a good thing! It's late. Good night!

Laura, 4/9, 4:50p, said: "If we are using a brand name - rather than a generic - where I work, it's because the only competitive generic is produced someplace like China, and doesn't conform to the same quality standards."

Oh, really, Laura? Do you hold the same concern for RU-486, which is produced by a Chinese manufacturing plant recently embroiled in a tainted drug scandal?

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/01/breaking_news_c.html

Lyssie,

YEAH HOORAY HURRAH HUZZAH...does this mean I can finally speak openly about your views on abortion???

Hey everyone, READ LYSSIES POSTS CAREFULLY...

Man, I've been waiting months to be able to say something.

Hey Lyssie,
I love you!!!!!

Oh, MK....

keep it down, will ya? :P

I'm surprised no one guessed by now....either way, you don't have to broadcast it. :) (Actually I'd prefer you didn't, final exams are next week and I have stuff to do...heehee).

Ah yes, I just caught it after re-reading your posts, Lyssie... quite subtle, actually...

Lyssie,

I'll say no more. But it's out there now, and I can breathe a sigh of relief. I thought I was gonna burst!

Lyssie, I have been suspecting something for months! I have noticed your tone changing a lot, and I can't tell you how happy I am to know that it wasn't just my imagination!
I am so thankful for you, Lyssie! :)

(by the way, I am still anxiously awaiting the pictures of your murals and ping pong table. I know they're going to look great. And a video of you singing one day would be great too! ;) I think you promised that one WAY back! LOL I know you're busy though so I'll give you some more time.)

"And a video of you singing one day would be great too!"

This is why God created YouTube, Lyssie...

Ooh, Lyssie! Awesome!

Oh, really, Laura? Do you hold the same concern for RU-486, which is produced by a Chinese manufacturing plant recently embroiled in a tainted drug scandal?

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/01/breaking_news_c.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Absolutely. It's the same reason we won't use generic Heparin.

Posted by: Laura at April 29, 2008 7:36 PM

Laura you're a fool. The names and DOB would be eliminated but you're STILL against a criminal investigation of something that is being done ILLEGALLY.

Argue all you want about right to privacy or whatever the flavor of the day is with you. Yippee! They found in favor of the criminal! Hooray! They're on par with all the slimy judges in Vermont that let child molesters walk free. Let's all go dance in the streets!

The premise is ridiculous: that due to rising prices of artificial female steroids, i.e., birth control pills, college nyphomaniacs are being forced to choose between illicit sex and eating.

*******************
Could you get any more ridiculous and sound any more absurdly hysterical if you really worked at it? Nymphomaniacs? Someone is apparently ignorant of what the word means. 'Illicit' sex? Again - melodramatic idiocy.

Lyssie:

Congratulations!

My son who is now 29 and could model in a GQ magazine decided to save himself for marriage long ago.

It was very trying as, being a military pilot, being stationed in the Middle East made it difficult for him to maintain relationships, however, he persevered in faith that God would answer him.

I remember praying with him numerous times about this asking God to protect the wife that was out there, saving herself as well.

Phil met a beautiful girl who he will be marrying this summer. Her dad is a Pastor and she comes from an awesome family. God rewards those who trust him and wait on Him, so keep up the good work. You will be richly blessed.

You got pregnant as an unwed 19-year-old, why are you so bitter towards women who are trying to be responsible?

Popping a pill doesn't make unmarried sex responsible, rather it opens you up to a host of diseases, drama and heartache that is completely avoidable by choosing abstinence.

Posted by: Jacqueline at April 29, 2008 4:41 PM
*****************
Back to the absurdity that sex is bad, only married couples should have sex, and they shouldnt have sex unless they are willing to make babies.

Sure Jackie. No female student could possibly be married. Any female that wishes to succeed in life has to be a nymphomaniac. You of course you will be dropping out just as soon as you find a man.

Posted by: Sally at April 29, 2008 5:13 PM
******************
I was married the whole time I was going to college and you can bet your fanny that my birth control pills were very important to me. If Id gotten pregnant I would have lost my scholarship.

People taking birth control faithfully produce way less pregnancies, which means many less abortions and unwanted children. You guys should be GIVING away BC.

Posted by: Erin at April 29, 2008 5:55 PM
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Yup!
But pregnancy isnt what is really bothering them.
Its all those college nymphomaniacs having illicit sex!
*Gasp*

Last time I checked, Abstinence was free, there is little risk of STDs, AND you save a LOT of $ to buy food, which is a necessity of LIFE.

Promiscuous sex is NOT a necessity of LIFE.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at April 29, 2008 6:07 PM
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Why dont you explain to all of us how you *know* that these women are promiscious?

Deliberate sterilization is a VERY selfish motive. Its all about the ME ME ME world. (back to the imbecilic delusion that there is something 'wrong' with people who dont want children)

Sex to reproduce to continue the human race is necessary, sex without TRUE LOVE (promiscuity) is NOT.(back to the demented idiocy that sex is only for reproduction and having sex without wanting children is 'selfish')

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at April 29, 2008 6:15 PM
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Your arguments are positively demented and deranged

And your lack of life experience doesn't make you smarter for having avoided life. It just makes you less experienced.

Posted by: Sally at April 29, 2008 6:46 PM
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It most certainly doesnt put her in a position to be giving out advice on subjects about which she knows absolutely nothing.

I find it interesting that if a woman wants plastic surgery, she must go in for a consultation, and btw, counseling, then a pre-op appointment, etc... but if you want an abortion, (which is a life changing experience) you just show up on a Tuesday and voila, instant abortion.

Posted by: Sandy at April 29, 2008 7:25 PM
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you dont know what youre talking about

Jackie -

Go out and have sex immediately! TR and Sally say that's the ONLY way to get life experience and have a "fulfilled" life.

You know, forget all the traveling, study, education, friends. Go get yourself a boy toy and all the answers to life will come to you!

Your parents chose less work (less children) and financial comfort for themselves and you and your siblings. Even if you don't believe in an eternity where only your soul goes with you, it's still a foolish trade-off to pick a career, money or worldly comforts that last a short while over a lifetime of love.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 29, 2008 6:44 PM
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Thats about as moronic an argument as anyone could come up with. There is nothing noble about having more children than you can take care of, there is nothing noble about making your children do without because youve had more children than you can afford, and there is nothing selfish about limiting family size. There isnt even any guarantee you WILL love your siblings.

Jackie -

Then you can be as HAPPY as TR and Sally are!

ROFL! I SLAY me!

Oh yes, because all college girls who use birth control are total nymphos.

How funny.

I can list about 5 people off the top of my head who are...VIRGINS...and use the pill to regulate their periods, myself included.

Honestly Jill...*shakes head*

Posted by: Rae at April 29, 2008 8:11 PM
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Some women who are into competitive sports take the pill so they arent having a period when they are having to compete.

Liz, you are an absolute fount of misinformation.

Erin:5:55: People taking birth control faithfully produce way less pregnancies, which means many less abortions and unwanted children. You guys should be GIVING away BC.

But, people who don't take BC produce the fewest pregnancies by far when they are not having sex.

Hmmmm...maybe less BC means less sex....less abortions? No, that's too easy.....

According to Dr. Ray Guarendi at Relevant Radio, high parental expectations are the most effective deterrent to teen pregnancy.

Jackie -

Go out and have sex immediately! TR and Sally say that's the ONLY way to get life experience and have a "fulfilled" life.

You know, forget all the traveling, study, education, friends. Go get yourself a boy toy and all the answers to life will come to you!

Posted by: Kristen at April 30, 2008 11:23 AM
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Why do you find it necessary to lie?

Jackie -

Then you can be as HAPPY as TR and Sally are!

ROFL! I SLAY me!

Posted by: Kristen at April 30, 2008 11:25 AM
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Why dont you tell us all how you know so 'much' about our private lives? I fail to see how making idiotic unfounded dishonest statements makes you so proud of yourself.

TR,
I am sitting on the edge of my seat!! Puhlease, perty puhlease use the word misogynistic today! Don't forget insensitive or idiotic. Oh, and you could also try ugly, lazy and stupid.

DO NOT DISAPPOINT ME........

Hmmmm...maybe less BC means less sex....less abortions? No, that's too easy.....

According to Dr. Ray Guarendi at Relevant Radio, high parental expectations are the most effective deterrent to teen pregnancy.

Posted by: Janet at April 30, 2008 11:37 AM
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So preventing pregnancy doesnt reduce the number of abortions performed? Your argument is just plain stupid. Would you like to tell us where Ray Guarendi got his information? Cite a study or two? a few references? something along those lines?

I had to have c sections. That was back when if you had one c section then all your subsecquent births would have to be c sections too. My sons are just under 20 months apart. Both pregnancies were planned. We discussed having a third child but recovering from major surgery, taking care of an infant, and taking care of two toddlers with no help except my husband was just more than I thought I could handle and we decided a TL would be a good idea. How is this 'selfish'? I wound up having to have a partial hyst so the TL became a moot point but we still had decided to stop at 2 children. The fantasy that it made us 'bad people' is laughable.

TR,
I am sitting on the edge of my seat!! Puhlease, perty puhlease use the word misogynistic today! Don't forget insensitive or idiotic. Oh, and you could also try ugly, lazy and stupid.

DO NOT DISAPPOINT ME........

Posted by: Carla at April 30, 2008 11:42 AM
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You live with it every day.
And its certainly not my fault.
I also notice you arent able to honestly address the subject or your own attitudes, or what those ugly attitudes say about you.
That's not my fault either.

Carla,

Fourteen posts in the last hour. One direct response so far...Let's keep it that way:)

I know Janet. :) So entirely predictable...

,i>Jackie -
Go out and have sex immediately! TR and Sally say that's the ONLY way to get life experience and have a "fulfilled" life.
You know, forget all the traveling, study, education, friends. Go get yourself a boy toy and all the answers to life will come to you!
Posted by: Kristen at April 30, 2008 11:23 AM

Then you can be as HAPPY as TR and Sally are!

Kristen, LOL!!!!!

TR,
I am sitting on the edge of my seat!! Puhlease, perty puhlease use the word misogynistic today! Don't forget insensitive or idiotic. Oh, and you could also try ugly, lazy and stupid.
DO NOT DISAPPOINT ME........

Yes, TexasRed, I like that idea. And just for me, could you please throw in the words, "imbecile", and "delusional"?

Carla, Do you ever listen to Dr. Ray on Relevant Radio? He is so on target! Talking to your kids about premarital sex...For 2000 years Christianity has stood for sex within the marital relationship, have they been wrong have they been wrong for all this time?

oops, too many "have they been wrongs" above!

B*tch fest! Yay!

Let's be constructive, ladies (I say as I leave a post completely devoid of anything constructive... will be back after lunch)

Janet:11:37: According to Dr. Ray Guarendi at Relevant Radio, high parental expectations are the most effective deterrent to teen pregnancy.

Would it not follow that the most effective deterrent to abortion might be high societal expectations?

I know Janet. :) So entirely predictable...

Posted by: Carla at April 30, 2008 11:51 AM
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your inability to defend or support your position isnt my fault either - stick your fingers in your ears and whimper 'lalalala I cant hear you' - its your only option

TR,
I am sitting on the edge of my seat!! Puhlease, perty puhlease use the word misogynistic today! Don't forget insensitive or idiotic. Oh, and you could also try ugly, lazy and stupid.
DO NOT DISAPPOINT ME........

Yes, TexasRed, I like that idea. And just for me, could you please throw in the words, "imbecile", and "delusional"?

Posted by: Bethany at April 30, 2008 11:56 AM
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You cant deal with any point made. You cant defend your position. Youre the one who is predictable.

Janet:11:37: According to Dr. Ray Guarendi at Relevant Radio, high parental expectations are the most effective deterrent to teen pregnancy.

Would it not follow that the most effective deterrent to abortion might be high societal expectations?

Posted by: Janet at April 30, 2008 12:07 PM
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Why would it?
If anything, it might encourage someone to end a pregnancy in order to fulfill 'societal expectations' rather than having a child. Does Dr Guarendi have any research, studies, factual information to back up his assertion? I know that sort of thing means nothing at all to you, and the concept of actually being able to support an argument is a foreign concept. 'Everyone knows' and 'it was something I heard on the radio' is all you need.

Janet,
I do not know Dr. Ray but I hear what you are saying. Parents have the greatest influence in their children's lives especially in discouraging high risk behavior. Thankful that my husband and I agree on this as we raise 3 boys and 1 girl.

Texasred, do you feel that I can't deal with the points you make? It almost sounds like you feel that I can't defend my position, and that you feel that I am predictable. Is that what you are trying to tell me?

By the way, I'm disappointed, you didn't even call me a megalomaniac. Sniff.

Carla, Do you ever listen to Dr. Ray on Relevant Radio? He is so on target! Talking to your kids about premarital sex...For 2000 years Christianity has stood for sex within the marital relationship, have they been wrong have they been wrong for all this time?

Posted by: Janet at April 30, 2008 11:58 AM
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And there are plenty of christians who do not share the RCCs archaic irrational attitudes towards sex in or out of marriage.

Texasred, do you feel that I can't deal with the points you make? It almost sounds like you feel that I can't defend my position, and that you feel that I am predictable. Is that what you are trying to tell me?

By the way, I'm disappointed, you didn't even call me a megalomaniac. Sniff.

Posted by: Bethany at April 30, 2008 12:17 PM
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Keep proving how right I am.

,i>Jackie -
Go out and have sex immediately! TR and Sally say that's the ONLY way to get life experience and have a "fulfilled" life.
You know, forget all the traveling, study, education, friends. Go get yourself a boy toy and all the answers to life will come to you!
Posted by: Kristen at April 30, 2008 11:23 AM

Then you can be as HAPPY as TR and Sally are!

Kristen, LOL!!!!!

Posted by: Bethany at April 30, 2008 11:54 AM
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So why dont YOU tell us how YOU know so much about our private lives?

Keep proving how right I am.

Are you trying to tell me that I am proving how right you are?

So why dont YOU tell us how YOU know so much about our private lives?

Are you trying to tell me that you believe I am able to see into your private life?

Would it not follow that the most effective deterrent to abortion might be high societal expectations?

Yes, Janet. But we haven't done that. What we have done is made sex a taboo. Of course, whenever you repress something, it becomes an obsession, which is why our country has more porn stores per capita than most developed nations. When other countries don't obsess about sex, they don't feel the need to make it a big deal.

So a more effective treatment is to have comprehensive sex ed, not promote or shun sex at all, let people make their own decisions and have high expectations for their contribution to society.

Are you trying to tell me that you believe I am able to see into your private life?

Of course TR doesn't think you can. But your behavior is indicative that you think you know all about our happiness and health and personal lives, which is downright wrong. You can't judge another person's happiness. Making it sound like you know all pro-choicers are miserable sluts is just downright ignorant.

Of course TR doesn't think you can. But your behavior is indicative that you think you know all about our happiness and health and personal lives, which is downright wrong. You can't judge another person's happiness. Making it sound like you know all pro-choicers are miserable sluts is just downright ignorant.

Who made it sound like all pro-choicers are miserable sluts? I certainly didn't.
Maybe it is Edyt who feels she can see into my private life and even read my mind.

So why dont YOU tell us how YOU know so much about our private lives?

Are you trying to tell me that you believe I am able to see into your private life?

Posted by: Bethany at April 30, 2008 12:23 PM
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you seem to harbor the fantasy that you can and can comment on how happy we are
Trying to use 'client centered therapy' just makes you look foolish Bethany - its not even a good technique in counseling and in this context its merely stupid

I take issue with out-of-wedlock sex being automatically labeled as being "promiscuous." I am not married nor have I ever been. I have had sex. It has never been promiscuous. I don't sleep around or have one-night stands or whatever. The one time I did not use protection and thought I was pregnant was with the same guy I am in a relationship with now. I have had sex with a grand total of two people. As of now, I have not had sex at all in nearly three months.

Am I a slut? Am I a nymphomaniac? Does this make me evil or godless or whorish? I don't think so. But a lot of you seem to think it would... because I am not married.

Who ma