"Ties to the 'hate America' crowd?" You mean the Republican party?

Reality said: ""Ties to the 'hate America' crowd?" You mean the Republican party?"

Obama has ties to the Republican Party?! I thought he was cool, man. I thought he was for hope, and change.

He's friends with Tom Coburn.

OK kids:

Tell me what hope is Obama going to give us?

And you think hope is that Islamic terrorism will go away by submitting to their demands? The only way that Islamic terrorism will go away is if we bow down and sumbit to their false god. What do you think is happeniing in Europe right now? So what you're telling me is that you are willing to become a Muslim? This is hard to understand since most atheists and pro-aborts on this site support Obama. You think the mullahs are going to let you be an atheist and live. Or will you just be closet atheists just going through the motions to survive? And you think Muslims allows abortion? Heck, they want more believers. You even ask for an abortion and off with the head.

And you think hope is guaranteeing the murder of children in the womb by consitiutional fiat? I testify to you that if that happens God will destroy this country.

And you think hope is having the government pay for your health care? Where's the government going to get the money to pay for this? You young people should especially be hopeful about this because you will becomes slaves to the government paying for all of us all old folk baby boomers' social security and health care costs. And if the government prints more money to do it, you will see 50% annual inflation and 25% interest rates. So forget that dream home and car and college for your kids. Yep, that's real hopeful.

Obama is a phantom, telling people what he thinks they want to hear and the sad part is many believe him without thinking about the consequences. It shouldn't surprise me since the same type of thinking leads to immoral sex and abortion. Doing things without thinking them through leads to destruction.

Obama is the definition of destruction.

On the cartoon: "Cool" only matters in high school. It has nothing to do with getting along in the real world. It's hard to explain that to an 18 year old.

You believe that the Republican Party is for limited government?
Where have you been for the past 7 years?
What's happened to the budget, the deficit, regulation and personal freedoms over the past 7 years?
Virtually ALL of the devout Republicans I know have become Libertarians in the last 3 years. Their disgust with the 'Pubbies knows no bounds...

Tell me what hope is Obama going to give us?

Jeez, where do I begin? A better economy, a speedy withdrawal from Bush's pointless adventure in Iraq, affordable health care, more funding for education, more funding for family planning, more funding for comprehensive sex education, infrastructure improvements, qualified, moderate judicial appointments, passage of the Prevention First Act, passage of the Freedom of Choice Act, abolition of "don't ask, don't tell," federal rights for same-sex spouses, less culture war and more progress, less corruption and more accountability, etc.

...no more Mexico City Policy, no more abstinence-only, no more federal abortion bans, no more "faith-based" welfare for religion peddlers, no more attempts to revoke Planned Parenthood's funding, improved image of America in the world, etc.

And you think hope is that Islamic terrorism will go away by submitting to their demands? The only way that Islamic terrorism will go away is if we bow down and sumbit to their false god.

So what are you waiting for? Bow down and submit! 'Cause God knows the Bush administration is doing nothing at all to capture Osama bin Laden or stop Al Qaeda.

And you think hope is guaranteeing the murder of children in the womb by consitiutional fiat? I testify to you that if that happens God will destroy this country.

Bring it on! It's been 35 years since abortion was legalized, and so far America is still standing.

And you think hope is having the government pay for your health care? Where's the government going to get the money to pay for this?

Same place every other civilized nation in the world gets it: by cutting out bureaucracy and improving preventative care. No country in the world has ever gone down the crapper paying for universal health care, and the US won't be the first.

Excuse me Laura:

We've been fighting a war. Wars costs money. We are making the investment over there so that our freedom won't be destroyed by Islamic, extremist terrorists.

Personal freedoms? Yes, I want the terrorists caught before they nuke you and me and my family and friends. Yes, I want the murder of children in the womb to end.

I will agree that there has been more spending than I would have liked to see. However, it was George Bush's cuts and changes that were opposed by viturally every Democrat and liberal Republican in the House and Senate. Who tried to reform Soc. Sec.? Who wants to make the tax cuts permanent? Who opposes this stuff? And if you don't think taxation is one of the biggest assaults on our personal freedoms you have absolutely no understanding of what freedom means.

Don't tell me you think things would have been better under a Gore administration who is seeking to hoodwink every living American with new taxes under the hoax of Global Warming? Have you not heard that the cooling and heating of the planet are natural occurences that coincide with the sun's activity. I mean the sun is one huge atomic bomb going off every second times a trillion, trillion and if you don't think that that's going to vary and not have an effect on the earth, which is only 93,000,000 miles away, then you don't understand physics. Don't you know that it only takes the light from the sun 8 minutes to reach planet earth? And here's the sad part: Gore knows all this stuff. And he is willing to trick and lie to gullible people like you to steal money from you and you are all too willing to let him do this. It's amazing to me. This guy had a $2,400.00 a month natural gas bill on his mansion in Tennesee until it was found out and that he suddenly went green. This guy is a liar, hypocrite and deceiver without equal.

If we get a Democratic administation, taxes will be raised, new taxes will be introduced, homosexuality will be normalized, abortion will be guaranteed, our Health Care system will become socialized and hence, downgraded, political correctness will be the new bill of rights. And you call this freedom and hope and change? You know what this is Laura, this is communism. You know Laura, one of the principles of freedom is to think for yourself. You however, have given up your freedom to the likes of the Clinton, Obama, and Gore and the Democratic Party by buying into their lies.

How do I know they are supreme liars? Because they are the most ungodly and depraved people on earth. Anyone, that thinks or speaks that making abortion legal is beyond depraved and everything that comes out of their mouths is a lie. Anyone willing to kill an innocent, precious, unborn child can do the utmost evil and cannot be trusted and that's the truth Laura. The sooner you realize it the bettter off you will be. What concerns me more than anything Laura is that we have a generation of young people willing to follow these godless, reprobates. My generation has failed you Laura and I am so, so sorry that I did not do what I needed to do to stand up to these criminals in the '60's.

Laura: These are smart people. They have law degrees. They know how to think critically. They have read the Bible, they know what it says about homosexuality, they know what it says about abortion. They choose to ignore it and their condemnation is assured. Even knowing this, they lead others like you, who are willing to believe their reachery, to hell with them.

Reality:

The shedding of innocent blood is paid for by the generation that followed it. Ever heard of the Civil War? How long did God put up with slavery before it culminated in this bloody war in which 600,000 died?

You think that we're going to get away with the shedding of the innocent blood of 50,000,000 children in the womb? Your proud declaration: "Bring it on! It's been 35 years since abortion was legalized, and so far America is still standing." kind of sums up the mindset of your generation. It makes me weep.

The Bible says this:

Proverbs 16:18
Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before stumbling.

Ezekiel 24:25
'As for you, son of man, will it not be on the day when I take from them their stronghold, the joy of their pride, the desire of their eyes and their heart's delight, their sons and their daughters,

You are utterly lost Reality.

Reality,10:40am,

Not to mention Bill Ayers, former terrorist bomber.

The ironic thing is that the under the
anti-choice dolt George W Bush abortion rates
have GONE UP from what they were under the
Bill Clinton whom conservatives love to
revile.That's due to the lousy policies of
his reprehensible regime.
Normalize homosexuality? What a laugh!
Do you think that a republican administration
will stop people from being gay? Gays have
existed from the very beginning.You can no
more stop them from being that way than you
can stop some people from being left-handed.
It's a perfectly natural thing.Homosexual-
ity exists in the animal world.I am left-handed,
but not gay.Just because the bible contains
certain statements against it does not mean
that we should blindly accept those passages.
Conservatives interperet the bible selec-
tively.They rail against gays,and enjoy
shrimp and lobster,which the bible calls
"abominations".Do you anti-choice folks on this
website like shellfish? Sorry,you're bound
for hell! What a laugh!
The bible does not mention abortion anywhere,
either permitting or banning it.
There is no record of Jesus ever mentioning
homosexuality,but there can be no doubt that
some Jews in his native Palestine engaged in ,
just as everywhere.

Umm, where do you think the money to fund the war is coming from? If the government can find a way to fund billions of dollars a day toward this pointless Vietnam-reminiscent war in Iraq, they can afford to pay for health care.

In Great Britain, they instated health care for all citizens following WWII. They had no money, their country was devastated, but they said, "Hey, you know what guys... if you all help pitch in a little bit, our whole community can be healthier." And you know what? They are.

For all the good our selfish, yeah that's right, selfish "look out for number 1" viewpoint has done for our health care, Europe has healthier citizens. In fact, we actually spend nearly half the world's total health care budget with worse outcomes.

And those high taxes? Well, the Economist actually ranked Denmark, Finland, and the Netherlands with better business environments. They pay higher wages, but have strong social safety nets, longer vacations, secured pensions, paid family leave, and so on. When I think about that, I think... wow, I could pay higher taxes, but get more vacation time, be guaranteed retirement money, and guaranteed health care? Wow, all my taxes really DO come right back to me!

Need more evidence? Americans are getting shorter (Princeton University study) in a world where average height is indicative of social health. In other words, taller is better. (In fact, we used to be the tallest people in the world.)

Oh, and ... according to studies by the World Health Organization, Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, United Nations Human Development Index, American Medical Association, Center for Economic and Policy Research, Global Working Families Study, and the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance, the US ranks worst or next to worst in:

Overall child welfare
Health care system ranking
Poverty rate
Income equality (rich/poor gap)
Air pollution per capita
Carbon dioxide emissions per capita
Personal savings rate
Income and pension security
Balance of payments
Municipal waste per capita
Development assistance to poor countries per capita
Longevity
Infant mortality
Child abuse
Depression
Anxiety
Obesity
Murder rate
Incarceration rate
Motor vehicle fatalities per capita
Vacation time
Paid family leave
Paid sick leave
The size of its middle class by percent
Voting rate
Press freedom
Personal freedom

It is a big myth that our society is the most free, the best in all ways, and whatever. Yeah, we produce the highest GDP, so that means we're the richest country in the world, but our citizens are suffering and working harder, and working longer hours, and going to the doctor less and sacrificing our personal freedoms, all in the misguided fantasy that we'll one day end up on top. Meanwhile, the divide between the rich and the poor gets bigger, the middle class is disappearing, and the rest of the developed world is laughing at us.

So yeah, I'd say I'm ready for change. And I don't care if that's Obama or Clinton, but get those damn Republicans away from the controls because THEY'RE the ones taking away our personal freedoms, voting in the interests of (and giving tax breaks to) wealthy individuals and corporations, as well as ensuring our citizens become sweatshop workers just to feed their children.

Pro-lifers - take note: If you want abortions to go down, you're going to have to provide for your citizens first.

HisMan,

Oh yes Al Gore, the high priest of global warming. He has no credentials in science or climatology but that's beside the point. His home uses more energy in one month than we use in a year.

By the way, those new lightbulbs that are supposed to save the planet? Don't break one in your house. It'll likely require a Hazmet team to clean it up. They are highly toxic because of mercury and you will need to take special precautions should one break and for their disposal as well.
Oh, and they're more expensive to boot.

For more info google "mercury toxic light bulbs".

Just a small example of this lunacy called manmade global warming.

" It's a perfectly natural thing.Homosexual-
ity exists in the animal world."

Syllogism 1:
1. If it exists in the animal world, then it is perfectly natural.

2. Homosexuality exists in the animal world.

Therefore, homosexuality is perfectly natural.

Syllogism 2:

1. If it exists in the animal world, then it is perfectly natural.

2. Eating one's young exists in the animal world.

Therefore, eating one's young is perfectly natural.

Edyt, 12:31PM

Would name for me specifically what freedoms you have lost? Can you no longer vote or read what you want? Are you no longer free to exercise your religious beliefs or lack thereof as you see fit?

"Overall child welfare
Health care system ranking
Poverty rate
Income equality (rich/poor gap)
Air pollution per capita
Carbon dioxide emissions per capita
Personal savings rate
Income and pension security
Balance of payments
Municipal waste per capita
Development assistance to poor countries per capita
Longevity
Infant mortality
Child abuse
Depression
Anxiety
Obesity
Murder rate
Incarceration rate
Motor vehicle fatalities per capita
Vacation time
Paid family leave
Paid sick leave
The size of its middle class by percent
Voting rate
Press freedom
Personal freedom"

Ha, ha, ha, and Reality thinks we're still standing. Sounds liek we're teetering on destruction to me and it started under Lyndon B Johnson when he muzzled the church back in teh 1950's.

You pro-abort liberals can't even get together on your facts because you believe in an entropic mess of chaos.

Mr. Berger:
Please don't turn this into a Jewsih debate, i. e. making idiotic claims that the Jewish word that Chrsitians interpret as virgin means young woman. Every rabbi knows that proper exegesis requires that the meaning of the word be derived from the contect of the passage.

And regarding your inane comment about shrimp and lobster, I guess you discount the entire New Testament and the Book of Acts written by you guessed it, Jews?

And to say that the Bible doesn's condemn homosexuality is an assertion only a self-deceived, liberal pro-abort could make, used to fashioning idols in his own image.

Yes, HisMan, continue to laugh at the facts and believe the myths of our culture. Can you prove our country DOESN'T rate worst or next to worst in those areas?

Concerning carbon dioxide emissions. Stop breathing everyone!

I notice methane emissions from cows wasn't put on the list. I've heard serious concern expressed over this as well. Seriously.

Mary, have you ever heard of the Patriot Act?

Edyt,

Yes I have. Please answer my question. What specific freedoms have you lost?

I don't really care if you "believe" in the facts or not. That's not my job.

But some of us actually care about the state of our economy and our well-being and are voting with that in mind. So keep laughing at Obama and Clinton supporters, because I can be willing to bet they'll be the ones having the last laugh.

Well, freedom of the press us up there. Personally, that affects me. Believe it or not, newspapers have been censored by government agencies, particularly in the form of FOIA requests, which are woefully years behind and often (not surprisingly) lost or forgotten.

The government has used its power to willfully silence those opposed to its methods (particularly those speaking from within the government).

Government can monitor religious or political institutions (without even suspicion of terrorist or criminal aims!)

The government has stopped public immigration hearings, making them private, as well as detained hundreds of people without charges and encourage politicians to not answer questions on that subject if they can be made public record.

The government can access your library records or any other records, as well as prosecute those who release those records if they say the government asked for those records.

The government has made it so they can monitor conversations in jail between attorneys and clients, as well as deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes. Also, it can jail Americans without a trial for an indefinite period of time. They will not be able to confront witnesses or know what they are being charged.

The government can unreasonably search Americans papers and other documents without probably terrorist causes.

For further investigation to the loss of our freedoms, feel free to check out any of the specific topics on The Cooperative Research History Commons project: Loss of Civil Liberties.

P.S. There are a lot of topics on how the government conducts secret business, monitors its citizens, and has expanded presidential power.

1984, anyone?

The shedding of innocent blood is paid for by the generation that followed it.

Blah blah blah.

Ever heard of the Civil War? How long did God put up with slavery before it culminated in this bloody war in which 600,000 died?

Uh, have you read the Bible? God is vehemently pro-slavery, judging by his book. Try again.

You think that we're going to get away with the shedding of the innocent blood of 50,000,000 children in the womb?

Absolutely. Because "we" haven't done a damn thing except let women decide for themselves whether or not they want to be mothers. No one has to have an abortion in the United States. It's not required. It's not mandatory. It's not even encouraged. It's discouraged. Government is not responsible for what women do with their own bodies.

Your proud declaration: "Bring it on! It's been 35 years since abortion was legalized, and so far America is still standing." kind of sums up the mindset of your generation. It makes me weep.

It makes me jump for joy, because false prophets like you should be ignored.

Edyt 1:09PM

This doesn't even approach the WW2 era when liberal Democrat icon Franklin Delano Roosevelt put American citizens in concentration camps, after confiscating their property and businesses.

Furthermore, Bush has said that atheists should not be considered citizens, nor should atheism receive support from the government despite the fact that the government often provides for religious organizations.

It's not really religious freedom when you provide for one over the other.

Mary, you didn't ask me about liberals or conservatives, you asked me which freedoms were being taken away. Do you want me to go through our entire history to find all the examples?

Ha, ha, ha, and Reality thinks we're still standing.

Aren't we? I know you're busy prostrating before Allah because it's the "only way that Islamic terrorism will go away," but the Democratic party is certainly still standing. Sounds like you're in desperate need of some hope, HisMan.

Okay, I'm hearing nothing in response but crickets, so when you finish scouring the internet in an attempt to prove my information is wrong, I'm going to do other things.

For all the blathering the people on this site do about "the truth", you sure are hesitant to accept it.

Edyt 1:04PM

Please, the personal freedoms you have lost, specifically for yourself. Concerning the press, has the gov't shut down newpapers, magazines, radio stations or has it censored the internet? Actually private businesses can censor what their employees see on the internet while using company computers.

So if you oppose something the government does, you are silenced? I hear our media and entertainment industry criticizing and ridiculing our government and leaders all the time.

Government can, but does it, monitor religious institutions with our without terrorist aims? If terrorism is involved, I have no issue with it. Have you heard of any houses of worship being shut down or raided by police or federal troops? The only raid I ever heard of was by a bunch of gay AIDS activists who raided a Catholic Mass and desecrated the communion service. If the government is monitoring my church its a huge waste of time and resources.

I have far less fear of the gov't accessing my papers, library records, etc. than I have of identity thieves and sickos who install cameras in hotel rooms and bathrooms to get their thrills. Those are the people who scare me and truly infringe on our freedom and privacy. I can't say I'm thrilled about being on camera every time I enter a place of business or my workplace, or that my computer activity at work is very closely monitored.

Some of what you are referring to does involve the threat of terrorism. Yes there are certainly unjust situations such as people being wrongly imprisoned, denied their rights, etc. That certainly is nothing new, has happened before and will again. These situations had nothing to do with the government and more to do with inept police and lawyers.

Pro-lifers - take note: If you want abortions to go down, you're going to have to provide for your citizens first.

and more accountability, etc.
Posted by: reality at April 27, 2008 11:30 AM

Apparently more accountability is meant for the government and not individuals?

If more individuals were personally accountable for their actions they wouldn't need the government to take "provide for them"...

So what, we should teach kids how to have all the sex they want, and then pay for their "mistakes"?

Just what exactly are YOU, the citizen going to do?

Edyt,

I thought we were talking about the loss of freedom under Republicans. I pointed out that Republican George Bush doesn't hold a candle to Democrat Franklin Roosevelt when it comes to depriving people of personal freedom.

It's not really religious freedom when you provide for one over the other.

I thought atheists didn't believe in religion. Are you now saying that atheism is a religion? Does that mean that Stalin was the leader of a "religious" war? HAH! So from this statement I gather that atheists are responsible for many of those "religious" wars you're always throwing in our faces?

Does this mean that every atheist that every molested a child can be held up as examples of how depraved atheism is the way you hold the Catholic priests up to us?

Well, freedom of the press us up there. Personally, that affects me

Well, since the newspapers are biased liberally, what does that tell you? Who exactly is doing the suppressing?

Well, Mary, if you're all for the government inching away our personal freedoms in the name of safety, go for it.

I don't think I have to be personally affected by a loss of freedom to speak out against it. Otherwise, all of you who have never had an abortion have no right to speak out against that either.

Oh, and by the way, as a member of the press, I am personally affected when I can't access information from the government which is supposed to be a transparent institution. I believe I mentioned FOIA requests? Backed up, forgotten, "lost" and whatever. The government is not transparent and it is taking away your freedom behind closed doors because YOU'RE too SCARED to stand up against your government and be a REAL patriot.

MK, MK... you are so sadly misinformed. That the press is "liberal" biased is a myth that I debunked a month or two ago.

I thought atheists didn't believe in religion. Are you now saying that atheism is a religion?

First of all, thanks for taking that out of context, but I see how I may have not been clear enough and said enough words to make people really truly understand the point.

Separation of church and state.

Then, state contributes to church similar to how it contributes to other organizations, claiming church/religion is not what it's contributing to, but that it is contributing to the organization.

Then, the state denies contributing to atheist organizations because of its lack of religious affiliation, thus making separation of church and state a myth and providing bias against those without religious faith.

Remember kids, religious freedom includes the freedom to not practice religion.

I did not say that the bible does not condemn
homosexuality.What I said was that just because
there are passages in it which do does not
mean that we should be hostile to gays.
Why don't you conservatives mind your own
damn business? If you disapprove of gays,that
is your right,but what consenting adults do in
private is nobody's business,certainly not the
government's.Gays have never been a threat to
me.None of them has ever hurt me or tried to
force me to be gay.And I am not a knee-jerk
liberal;there are some left-wing extremists for whom I have nothing but contempt.I loathe
political correctness and multiculturalism.
The lack of free speech on many US college
campuses is appalling.But the conservative
agenda,and that of the religious right is
far worse.

Does this mean that every atheist that every molested a child can be held up as examples of how depraved atheism is the way you hold the Catholic priests up to us?

If an atheist molests a child and American Atheists or another large atheist organization attempts to cover it up and not address the problem ... then yes.

See, the big difference between the Catholic Church and other churches/religions that have molested kids is that the CC didn't take responsibility and attempt to fix the problem. It tried to sweep it under the rug. That's why it became a big deal.

Edyt,

I agree the gov't is inching away at personal freedoms. Its telling us what lightbulbs to use, even if they are mercury toxic. Its tells people they can't smoke in their homes or permit it in their place of business. It tells us what kind of cars we should be driving. It even told us what kind of toilets to use, which incidentally used more water than it saved. People were going from my hometown to Canada to buy toilets!

Yes, the gov't is definitely inching away at personal freedom.

Oh noees! The government is trying to make the planet healthier! You poor thing!

1. The government does not mandate which products you buy. If you don't want those light bulbs, don't buy them.
2. You can smoke in your house. And outside. But you can't smoke inside public buildings where other people who don't smoke are likely to be because it infringes on their health.
3. You can drive whatever car you want to drive.
4. I don't know about toilets, but I'm willing to bet you can go to Home Depot and pick out any damn toilet you want. If your hometown does not create a demand for a certain type of toilet there will be no supply.

You created a nice diversion, but those aren't really examples of the government taking away freedom. If anything, it's a nice example on how advertising and consumerism has an effect on personal guilt and purchases. Meh. Big deal.

Hate to digress, but has anyone heard a thing about the massive, thundering protest that was supposed to happen at the Aurora Planned Parenthood today?
A woman on the Fox Valley site said that buses had been chartered, and that they were expecting "thousands" to participate.

MK, MK... you are so sadly misinformed. That the press is "liberal" biased is a myth that I debunked a month or two ago.

Posted by: Edyt at April 27, 2008 1:46 PM

There's no arguing with you because you live in your own little world where "I think it is, so it must be TRUE". You haven't a clue about the real world.

On the cartoon: "Cool" only matters in high school. It has nothing to do with getting along in the real world. It's hard to explain that to an 18 year old.

Posted by: Janet at April 27, 2008 10:53 AM

That's why so many drop out. They are not stupid. They see what a stupid game high school is and would rather take their chances in the real world.

There's no arguing with you because you live in your own little world where "I think it is, so it must be TRUE". You haven't a clue about the real world.
Posted by: Janet at April 27, 2008 2:21 PM

Okay, Janet, bring out your weapons and I'll bring out mine. Prove the media is liberal.

And you think hope is having the government pay for your health care? Where's the government going to get the money to pay for this?

Same place every other civilized nation in the world gets it: by cutting out bureaucracy and improving preventative care. No country in the world has ever gone down the crapper paying for universal health care, and the US won't be the first.

Posted by: reality at April 27, 2008 11:50 AM

Uh yeah. Canada has wait lists for cancer treatment so long that folks die before they start treatment. Rationing is the key to cost containment as is euthanasia. Like the Netherlands involuntary termination. That's what they call it when they kill folks who aren't requesting assisted suicide. The only reason that other countries are not yet bankrupt is that their low birth rate has not caught up to them. The women who helped to nearly double the workforce without doubling the population weren't home bringing up a new generation to replace themselves which is why Europe will lose 75% of its native population by the end of the century.

Reality needs to take a math class.

Edyt,

The government is trying to mandate what lightbulbs you buy. They want to ban our good old lightbulb, I believe by 2012. Nothing preserves a healthy planet like mercury toxicity in our homes. I can only imagine the danger of disposing of these things. I believe you have to check with the sanitation dept. of some government bureaucrat as to how to dispose of these things as well.

There was an effort in California to ban smoking in one's home, though I don't believe it was successful. Also, if a bar owner wants to permit smoking in his establishment, what right does the state have to tell him he can't? That's a big issue in our state now. Who forces anyone to patronize these bars?

Yes we can drive any car we want. But haven't you heard all the terrible things SUVs do? Besides being polluters and gas guzzlers that cause climate change, they drive out of control and even drive into people's homes and knock them off the toilet. What's really amazing is they never have drivers when they do this. I heard some environmental wackos out west burned a bunch of SUVs at a dealership. Supposedly to save the planet.

Yeah, finally we can go to Home Depot but only because those geniuses figured out people were buying them "illegally" and the mandated toilets were causing more water usage than conservation. So much for bettering the planet.
John Stossel, I believe he is on Dateline, had a great show on this. It was a hoot.

You were talking about the loss of personal freedoms and I named a few. Apparently some losses are fine so long as you support the supposed reason. Personal guilt and purchases?
I don't quite understand your point there.

Hippie, please cite your sources.

Hippie 2:32PM

I understand a wealthy Canadian friend of Hillary Clinton's, who was also a member of the government, came to the United Stated for treatment of her advanced breast cancer. Whatever for? Do middle class and low income Canadians have this same option?

I like the enviro groups that focus on education. Many people who are not wackos recycle and reuse. Friends who come to my house are surprised that I use cloth napkins, china and glasses no matter how many people I am serving. I also wash diapers of my own free will because I just don't like being wasteful. You can save a lot of money doing environmentally clean living like breastfeeding, cloth diapers, china dishes, cheap gas saver cars etc. I don't think people who have different habits are bad or anything. But those habits are too expensive for me. When I have extra money I prefer to buy organic food or give to charity or do something fun.

I think that different people have different thresholds. Some won't consider conserving till gas hits $10 a gallon. Some not even then. I bet you could make a cool chart of how sales of cheap gas saver cars go up as gas prices climb.

Mary, there's a big difference between federal and state governments.

I do not believe the federal government should have the power to mandate things like smoking or which toilets you use or anything like that. That's not the government's job. On a state level, if enough people want to ban a certain kind of light bulb, then go for it.

I'm talking about consumerism because you seem to feel like the government is trying to get you to do these eco-friendly things, when in reality, advertisements are doing that. You feel guilty and want to blame it on the government trying to do it, when in reality, it's not really doing much to help the environment at all. On a local, or global scale.

Sorry I don't have time to go look those up for you.
I found that info in reports published by the UN. Not news stories referring to reports.

Hippie, please cite your sources.

Posted by: Edyt at April 27, 2008 2:35 PM

google UN depopulation Europe and UN euthanasia or assisted suicide Netherlands.

That's basically how I found them.

Janet said: There's no arguing with you because you live in your own little world where "I think it is, so it must be TRUE". You haven't a clue about the real world.

Edyt said: Okay, Janet, bring out your weapons and I'll bring out mine. Prove the media is liberal.

Did you read my post? No weapons today, dear.

Obviously Edyt doesn't own her own home...low flow toilets babe. I double dog dare you to find one that isn't low flow. Same with faucets and shower heads...

As for the lightbulbs, read Mary's post carefully...they are TRYING to ban lightbulbs...

Also, by law we must wear seatbelts, kids under 7 must be in car seats, you CANNOT smoke in public within fifteen feet of a building entrance, genetically engineered foods were not proven safe before being placed on the market and since they aren't labeled we have no way of knowing which foods have been tampered with, the newspapers are most certainly biased liberally (if you've proved otherwise, show me again), New York restaurants can't serve food made with trans fats, I can't cut down trees on my own property...the list goes on...

Edyt:

That's the point. What party has been in control of the government for the majority of time since WWI? The Democrats.

And I don't dispute these statistics at all even though I have not verified them. In fact, they prove my point: A nation governed without God's principles leads itself to destruction. And you want even more of tis type of government, for this is what liberals want, freedom from God because they hate God. It is evident. It's insane.

And Edyt, if you think the all powerful government can save us from all these evils, well, you're just plain wrong.

Edyt, you hate God. The God who gave you life, gave you parents, gave you everything you have. You are an ingrate. Unthankful, unfaithful, reprobate, who, despite having the privilege of learning about God has thrown it into the trash can and spit on it.

This verse sums you up Edyt:

Romans 1:

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

MK... like I said, without demand, there's no supply. You want a certain kind of toilet, there needs to be a demand for it. That's not politics, it's economics.

On the "liberal" media.

And like I said, I don't think the federal government should mandate things like toilets and light bulbs. Seatbelt laws, well... since our roads are cross country, then it makes sense.

Please differentiate between when you're talking about state and federal laws because they're two different things. In general, if I think a law will affect citizens from across the country (such as processed foods, which often are moved from state to state), then I think it should be federally mandated. State laws can be more petty, such as smoking bans.

Laura 2:21: Hate to digress, but has anyone heard a thing about the massive, thundering protest that was supposed to happen at the Aurora Planned Parenthood today?
A woman on the Fox Valley site said that buses had been chartered, and that they were expecting "thousands" to participate.

Laura, thanks for asking. It was a beautiful day for a PL rally. I didn't read anywhere that thousands were coming, but there were several hundred people of all ages, many families (and I only saw about 5 to 10 fetal signs, which will make some of you happy). It was very peaceful. We released pink and blue balloons with a name attached to each one to signify an abortion that has occurred at PP. It was very windy, so the balloons are probably somewhere over the Atlantic by now. Baby shower items for the pregnancy centers were collected and counselors were out in front as always, not screaming, but helping anyone who asked for help.

Oh noees! The government is trying to make the planet healthier! You poor thing!

Posted by: Edyt at April 27, 2008 2:01 PM

I wish the gov't would care at least about kids health and quit pushing that nasty usda surplus junk in school lunches. All that grease is terrible for kids and trains them to eat poorly. I got a call from one of my non wacko consumer advocacy groups to support the Fresh Act which would get more fresh fruits and veggies on school lunch plates. Why subsidize farmers to produce unhealthy foods?

MK... like I said, without demand, there's no supply. You want a certain kind of toilet, there needs to be a demand for it. That's not politics, it's economics.

No, Edyt, it's the LAW.

Well, please prove the law mandates which toilet you put in your house. Is it a state or federal law?

Why do you keep evading this?

. The next giant leap in toilet technology came in 1994, when federal law restricted tanks to 1.6 gallons per flush, but to those who used the first generation of low-flow toilets, this leap seemed more of a stumble. "They often needed two flushes," says This Old House plumbing and heating consultant Richard Trethewey. Manufacturers largely fixed that problem by further modifying the passageways to move a reduced amount of water more vigorously into the bowl.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,213021,00.html

first, I wasn't evading it, I was looking it up. Second, you never asked me to show you the law, you just said it was supply and demand. Third, I posted while you posted. There it is, up above this...

That's the point. What party has been in control of the government for the majority of time since WWI? The Democrats.

So... what, you want to make this a Democrat bash? Look, I don't care if it's Republicans in power or Democrats. If they're taking away constitutional freedoms, they're not being very patriotic, now, are they?

And I don't dispute these statistics at all even though I have not verified them.

What statistics? I'm sorry, I wasn't aware you were giving me statistics. Please cite your sources when you tell me what statistics you're providing.

In fact, they prove my point: A nation governed without God's principles leads itself to destruction. And you want even more of tis type of government, for this is what liberals want, freedom from God because they hate God. It is evident. It's insane.

Whatever... apparently other "godless" countries seem to be doing much better. Happier citizens, better economy... yeah, that is what I want! :)

And Edyt, if you think the all powerful government can save us from all these evils, well, you're just plain wrong.

No, I don't think putting more power in the hands of the government is right. However, the Republican party has proved that they are just as power-hungry as the Democratic party, so I don't have a lot of faith in either right now. However, at the moment the Democratic party holds more of my values than the Republican, so that's where I'm voting. If the Republicans held more of my values, I'd vote there, even as a liberal. To me, all that matters is the majority of my opinions. I don't support ALL Republican or ALL Democratic values. That's ridiculous.

Edyt, you hate God. The God who gave you life, gave you parents, gave you everything you have. You are an ingrate. Unthankful, unfaithful, reprobate, who, despite having the privilege of learning about God has thrown it into the trash can and spit on it.

I don't hate God any more than I hate Santa Claus.

Okay, the government is infringing on your right to own a certain kind of toilet. Happy?

(However, you don't have the Constitutional right to a toilet of your dreams, unlike the freedoms I listed)

Edyt, 2:55PM

Whether the laws are state or federal, it hardly matters to the consumer. Rights are being infringed upon. Banning of our lightbulbs is based on junk science and the consequences of mercury toxic light bulbs are considerably more dangerous than any supposed benefit. My husband actually bought a couple and I have no clue how to dispose of them and just hope they don't break. I understand there is no system established for their disposal anywhere in the US as of yet and I only hope people are well aware of their toxicity. I only happen to hear of their danger on a radio program!
By the way, by 2014 lightbulbs will be banned according to a federal energy bill already signed into law. This ban also includes restrictions on automobile choice.

So stock up on lightbulbs everyone. We no sooner get rid of the toilet police then we'll have the lightbulb police.

The smoking ban in bars involves our state right now. All our tavern owners are up in arms about it, since most of their customers smoke and no one is forced to sit in their taverns if they don't like smoke.

Edyt:

If Santa Claus created the world and died for your sins, I could fault you.

However, I too agree that Santa Claus did not have 66 Books compiled into what we now call the Bible that pointed to him, nor had over 500 people that witnessed his resurrected body after his death. Nor have I read that Santa Clause raised the dead, healed the sick, cast out demons, calmed the sea, changed the world, and was crucified.

Si I guess I can agree with you about Santa Claus.

However, where one's intelligence quotient can be measure in how well they can interpret analogs, you would rate at the bottom.

Edyt:

If Santa Claus created the world and died for your sins, I could fault you.

However, I too agree that Santa Claus did not have 66 Books compiled into what we now call the Bible that pointed to him, nor had over 500 people that witnessed his resurrected body after his death. Nor have I read that Santa Clause raised the dead, healed the sick, cast out demons, calmed the sea, changed the world, and was crucified.

So, I guess I can agree with you about Santa Claus.

However, where one's intelligence quotient can be measure in how well they can interpret analogs, you would rate at the bottom.

I'm assuming you mean analogy.

Santa Claus doesn't exist.
You can't hate something that doesn't exist.
Therefore: you can't hate Santa Claus.

Now that you know that, you can reinterpret what I said the correct way. :)

Oh, and you can check out any one of the >31,494 books written about Santa Claus here.

Also, apparently Santa Claus is one of the most famous IFOs (Identified Flying Objects) in history. More than UFOs, Bigfoot and the Virgin Mary combined.

That's a lot of sightings.

In fact, I feel more likely to believe in Santa Claus than God at this point.

Santa Claus doesn't exist.
You can't hate something that doesn't exist.
Therefore: you can't hate Santa Claus.

Gotta chime on this one. It's a little more interesting than toilets. Santa doesn't exist? Didn't you ever see "Miracle on 34th Street"? The Federal Government believes he exists. They deliver several tons of mail to him every year during the month of December, after all!

And The Weather Channel tracks Santa Claus on real radar as he travels the world on Christmas Eve night. Surely that proves that he exists!

You're right, Janet! Santa Claus is NOT eco-friendly! Why doesn't he set up an email address already!?

All that wasted paper...

Noun 1. analog - something having the property of being analogous to something else
analogue, parallel
similarity - the quality of being similar
echo - a close parallel of a feeling, idea, style, etc.; "his contention contains more than an echo of Rousseau"; "Napoleon III was an echo of the mighty Emperor but an infinitely better man"

Ah, sorry, my geekiness equated analog to things like computer models and televisions. My definition of analog is based on how something works. Good to know I should expand it.

Edyt:

As I said before using the analog of God and Santa Claus you demonstrate your lack of intelligence.

You may be educated but I see it has caused you no good.

You are lost as lost can be. (metaphorical analog).

Edyt: Such a party-pooper!

Then BANISH EDUCATION! It's the obvious solution to fix the godlessness in me.

No Edyt:

Don't blame it on education, blame it on the choice you made to not believe in God, despite the fact that the world is saturated with the evidence of His existence.

And this is no accident. When God asks you why you chose not to believe in Him despite ALL the evidence that He exists, He will be able to find you culpable, and state, "You are without excuse, depart from me, for I did all I could to reveal myself to you".

I could educate you that if you touch a hot stove you will be burned. You can be in a classroom and understand it, even take a test a repeat the facts and score 100%. But until you learn to apply what you hve learned and stay away from that hot stove would you be considered wise. In fact, if you decide to spit on the warning, and then go on and touch the hot stove, resulting in injury to yourself, well that's just plain stupid.

Careful, HisMan, if belief is God is faith alone, then there should be no evidence for his existence. If there is evidence, then he should no longer be believed in by faith alone, but by facts. If that's the case, where are the facts? And doesn't the Bible say it takes faith to believe in God, not facts?

I got lost with your hot stove example, since I thought it was the education that led me away from God, not toward it.

Let's talk more about the liberal media. :)

Edyt, there's nothing to be careful about. I know what faith is.

God does not expect us to believe blindly. The Bible is not a myth. The witness of millions of Christians that have lived before us stand as to the faithfulness of God. Christ performed miracles to prove that what He claimed was of God. These events were recorded for your benefit so that it reading the accouts of Christ's life you could beleive in Him. Do you not realize that it actually takes a monumental effort or utter laziness not to believe in God and in Christ?

Does not evidence lead to belief? The Biblical definition of faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. What is it that you hope for Edyt? Do you want to believe that you appear here on this planet for a short while, die, and that's it? I hope for eternal life. I see evidence of the eternal all around me. The vastness of the Universe, the ability to think and imagine, etc.

The world is saturated with the evidence of God. To deny this is beyond understanding and requires a thinking process that defies logic.

God wants you to believe in Him and has provided you with every possible evidence to believe in Him. It is everywhere to be found.

However, you choose to ignore the evidence.

Who, Edyt, has led you away from the truth? And it is a somebody.

HisMan,

I see no need to insult Edyt by suggesting she lacks intelligence. I may disagree with Edyt on any number of things and we may have our jousts, but I in no way would ever deny that she is an intelligent woman and I respect her as such.
I also equally respect your religious beliefs and your right to profess them however you choose to whoever you choose.
Let's discuss issues, agree or disagree, or agree to disagree, but dispense with any personal insults. I'm sorry HisMan, but belittling a person's intelligence is an insult.

Reality:

I will die before I prostrate my self before allah.

And I have plenty of hope, He's called Jesus and not Barack Obama.

Edyt,

I wasn't really even trying to prove anything, just jumped on the bandwagon when I saw that we were listing things the government has forced on us against our will...couldn't tell you if it was the democrats, republicans, state or federal...only know that I'm tired of it.

As for the newspapers, I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say. I believe that they are biased liberally. I'd be happy to look at evidence that points otherwise.

Regarding God...he is not a question that has to be answered or proven. He is a person, of whom you can ask questions. It's not about proving His existence, it's about having a relationship with Him. When you post here, I don't ask you to prove you exist. I take a leap of faith and converse with you. If you answer, I assume you are real. This is also what I do with God. The first step in faith is not finding a rational explanation or indisputable proof...it's saying "hello"...

Mary, then let the word define Edyt:

Psalm 14:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

fool (fl)
n.
1. One who is deficient in judgment, sense, or understanding.
2. One who acts unwisely on a given occasion: I was a fool to have quit my job.
3. One who has been tricked or made to appear ridiculous; a dupe: They made a fool of me by pretending I had won.
4. Informal A person with a talent or enthusiasm for a certain activity: a dancing fool; a fool for skiing.
5. A member of a royal or noble household who provided entertainment, as with jokes or antics; a jester.
6. One who subverts convention or orthodoxy or varies from social conformity in order to reveal spiritual or moral truth: a holy fool.
7. A dessert made of stewed or puréed fruit mixed with cream or custard and served cold.
8. Archaic A mentally deficient person; an idiot.

Mary, take it up with God.

Thanks, Mary, but it's no big deal. That's kind of the regular thoroughfare here... one person makes an argument, the other refutes it with an ad hominem attack...

It's like tennis, except as soon as the ball falls out of court, one player beats up another. Sure, it's not a fair game, but that's the way we play it around here!!

And like HisMan said, don't shoot the messenger.

People who claim that the media is not liberal are usually so far off the charts bonkers left that they make Chairman Mao look like Ronald Reagan. And you seem like you fit the bill, Edyt.

Basically, these wackos think that if the media isn't calling Bush a war criminal every day and demanding that he be impeached/jailed/executed 24/7, then that means that the media is a right-wing propaganda machine. Just look at what's being done to liberal George Stephanopoulos, who dared to ask Obama some tough questions during a debate. Only softballs for our Barry, please!!

But sure, the media isn't liberal. Here's what the publisher of the most powerful newspaper in the nation, the New York Times, said in a commencement address at the State University of New York at New Paltz:

"I’ll start with an apology.

When I graduated from college in 1974, my fellow students and I had just ended the war in Vietnam and ousted President Nixon [light cheering]. Okay, okay, that's not quite true. I mean yes, the war did end and yes, President Nixon did resign in disgrace but maybe there were larger forces at play.

Either way, we entered the real world committed to making it a better, safer, cleaner, more equal place. We were determined not to repeat the mistakes of our predecessors. We had seen the horrors and futility of war and smelled the stench of corruption in government.

Our children, we vowed, would never know that.

So, well, sorry [pause and applause]. It wasn't supposed to be this way.

You weren't supposed to be graduating into an America fighting a misbegotten war in a foreign land [louder applause].

You weren't supposed to be graduating into a world where we are still fighting for fundamental human rights, whether it's the rights of immigrants to start a new life; or the rights of gays to marry; or the rights of women to choose [applause].

You weren't supposed to be graduating into a world where oil still drove policy and environmentalists have to fight relentlessly for every gain.

You weren't. But you are. And for that I'm sorry."

http://www.timeswatch.org/articles/2006/20060529081027.aspx

HisMan 5:10PM

I see only various definitions of the word fool. Nothing about deficiency of intelligence.
I'm sure we have all been fools or played for fools at sometime in our lives, no matter how intelligent we are.

This guy should be sorry for all the people he's leading to Hell.

I wasn't really even trying to prove anything, just jumped on the bandwagon when I saw that we were listing things the government has forced on us against our will...couldn't tell you if it was the democrats, republicans, state or federal...only know that I'm tired of it.

Oh, I see. No big deal, I'm sick of the government trying to regulate random life anyway. I think the government should regulate businesses to some degree (their level of waste, emissions, products) but to let the consumer choose. But the way things have been until now... is the business pays off the government... So it really is the fault of our politicians, red or blue.

As for the newspapers, I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say. I believe that they are biased liberally. I'd be happy to look at evidence that points otherwise.

I already posted this, but if you're interested in more, there's a book by Eric Alterman titled "What Liberal Bias?" (You can read the intro here.

Most journalists are centric compared to the public, but tend to vote on the right when it comes to economics and on the left with social policy, such as homosexuality. It's not a surprising stretch, honestly, that the same people who say "stay out of my wallet" are also saying "stay out of my bedroom."

John, I've done the research for you before, but this time you're gonna have to do it on your own.

Look up those liberal media papers. Then see who owns the paper. Tell me how many of those owners are liberal, would ya dear?

Edyt, you're a member of the press? well that explains a lot.

How the campaign going for Obama?

*sigh* Oh, HisMan. I wish you weren't such a looney.

Mary, c'mon:

You want to defend the blasphemy of Edyt go ahead.

I won't.

What she's does on this site will be called what it is.

And Robert:

Then stop using my tax dollars to pay for schools that won't allow my kids to pray in school. Don't push homosexuality onto me by calling it diversity training. Don't pass laws that legalize murder. Most of all, stop being inconsistent.

Edyt,

I can give hundreds of thousands of examples of liberal bias:

http://www.mediaresearch.org/

http://www.newsbusters.org/

...and just ask Bernard Goldberg who use to work for CBS news, he wrote 2 books -Bias and Arrogance.

I'm not a political reporter. But thanks for assuming.

Here's another really nicely demonstrated article about liberal bias.

I don't know who wrote it, but it's an easy-to-read summary and cites its research.

Liberal s have greater neural brain activity associated with complex mental functions.

That's for you, HisMan. ;)

Oh! Goldberg! And of course... Bias... isn't that the book where he makes undocumented,
exaggerated assertions such as “America’s ten-trillion-page tax code,” "tuition fees that are
about the same as the cost of the space shuttle,” and Laurence Tribe’s “ten million”
appearances on CBS News during the 1980s...

Where basically every claim he makes that the media is liberal is his own personal anecdote, and no research involved whatsoever?

Yes, you're right, that just about proves it!

John K. Wilson said it better than I did.

HisMan,

I don't defend what you call her "blashemy", I defend her intelligence. I also firmly defend her right, as well as yours, to believe or not believe as either or you see fit. I only say that we stick to intelligent debate, not resort to insults.

Mary, that's really noble of you and all, but like I said, that's not how we "debate" around here.

Edyt,

I must be missing something...these were not newpapers (I thought that's what we were talking about) and the stories were about David Letterman (Liberal), Obama, Obama, Obamas pastor and how he didn't mean what he said the way he said it, Obama and an article on the pope title "Welcome Rottweiler"...Where was the conservative bent?

Your second link gave me Bill Moyers on PBS (liberal), Obama, Obama, an article about Ethanol being blasted telling us to look forward to an "ungreen" future, "Liberal columnist Arianna Huffington..." (quoting there), Obama...

Nothing on John McCain, nothing on the war in Iraq, nothing on any conservative topic that I can see, except for a report on FoxNews about the racist Planned Parenthood fiasco, and having seen the script, I can tell you that on this topic O'reilly came across as very "liberal"...

MK, to be perfectly honest, I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Are you talking about Jasper's links?

Ah, you are. Despite the way their names sound, they're actually conservative news sites. They haven't actually added anything to debunk the idea that the media is liberal, but are reporting with an obvious conservative bias.

Gosh Edyt,

I'm so sorry...yes I was looking at Jaspers links. I knew one of us was nuts. Not surprised to find out it's me! If that wasn't liberal bias I don't know what is! LOL...again, sorry. Okay, when I get a chance, I'll look at your links.

Mary:

One can be intelligent but a fool.

Hitler was intelligent.

Stalin was intelligent.

Lenin was intelligent.

Mohammed was intelligent.

Buddah was intelligent.

Confucius was intelligent.

Madeline Murray O'Hare was intelligent.

They all deinied Christ. I call that dumb.

What does that make them in your vernacular?

Besides, Edyt has no problem insulting my God and you think I am going to sit back and take that? Dream on.

HisMan,

many of the people you listed did not deny Jesus or his importance. Buddha said nothing for or against Christianity, he spoused his views on Enlightenment, in fact there are Buddhist Christians, Christian Buddhists, or whatever.

As for Mohammed, he accepted Christ as a prophet, and accepted Christians, and Jews as well as any other groups that follow "the Book" are accepted as valid by Islam, for no previous revelations are outstripped or overturned by Mohammed, and Islam has what amounts to a to each his own doctrine.

Thank you A History of God (which I'm now about halfway through :)) very good/interesting read, very dense and slow though, and pretty complex in the areas exploring philosophy and whatnot.

Dan,

Shoot, there was something I wanted to ask you... argh, I can't remember... well, this post is pointless...

Ah! I remembered the SECOND I hit the Post button! Do you get EWTN?

@Bobby: I pierced my lip. :-x

I'm asking you for a pic right now.

Rae-

say what? lol

Bobby-

it's ok, happens to the best of us ;)

Rae-

say what? lol

Bobby-

it's ok, happens to the best of us ;)

I have a question about the "America-hater" label that gets thrown around all the time from the right at the left. What exactly is that supposed to mean? I don't think that liberals hate America for the most part. I know I don't. I'm distrustful of the American government, and especially this administration, but I certainly don't hate America.

And here's the thing that really bothers me about that term. It always seems to come from people (like Rush Limbaugh for instance) who spend a great deal of their time spitting hatred and vitriol at liberals and "the left". How is that not "America hating" to hate such a large chunk of actual Americans?

Rae-

say what? lol

Bobby-

it's ok, happens to the best of us ;)

ugh, triple post >

"@Bobby: I pierced my lip. :-x"

oh no Rae, your parents are going to be mad.

Hey MK, I was following your discussion with Edyt regarding media bias. My favorite read on that topic is Bob Somerby at the Daily Howler. It's www.dailyhowler.com. He's definitely a left-leaner, but he examines things pretty closely, and he always provides links and quotes to the full context so that you can judge for yourself. He's also usually just as hard on perceived "liberal" bias as he is on conservative bias.

HisMan,

That's been my argument. One can be intelligent and a fool, something I'm sure we've all been guilty of sometime in our lives. I'm arguing that Edyt is intelligent and you should not denigrate her intelligence because you disagree with her and she with you. Intelligently argue your point. I made the same argument on your behalf when people attacked you so viciously a year or so ago.

Confucius and Buddha would have known nothing about Christ so they hardly denied Him. Dan is correct, Christ's birth was viewed as miraculous by Mohammed and Christ is viewed as one in a long line of prophets by Muslims.

I wholeheartedly support your right to defend your beliefs and God, and I equally support Edyt's right to disagree with you and not to believe.

Hieronymous,

It not all people on the left, not at all. But when we see Obama with a pastor that says God da** America, etc, etc a week after 9/11, Bill Ayers, etc. We start to wonder.

But Jasper, didn't some prominent conservative clerics do exactly the same thing? Did that make you wonder about conservatives? It seems like a double standard.

Dan:

You've got to be kidding, right?

Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler murdered millions of people and you do not think this is denying Christ?

Heck, just to be neutral on Christ is to deny Him. Jesus said, "You are either for me or against me". There's no middle ground. So please don't try to rationalize this.

Muslims think that the Trinity doctrine is blasphemy. They cannot conceive of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all in One God. To say that Jesus was a prophet and not acknoledge that He was the Son of God is ludicrous. Jesus was either the Son of God or He was a mad man.

And to say that you can be a Christin Buddhist is also ludicrous. You cannot believe that the way to happiness is by eliminating all desire and the way to eliminante all desire is the 8 paths to happiness. This is heresy.

Jesus Christ said in John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

Acts 4:12
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

You'd be better off reading God's History of God than some made made fable, The History of God. I can see where it's leading you.

HisMan, I was directing it towards those two in particular, though didnt Hitler consider himself Christian? Anyway, I digress.

First, it isnt the 8 path to happiness, it's the eight fold path. Second, it isnt simply eliminating all desire, there are multiple pieces to it.

As for the Bible, I'm not referencing the Bible or Jesus' view of the topic, I'm looking at it from the view of an objective observer. Making the claims you did holds an inherant bias.

As for a God's History of God, no one can say with absolute certainty their way is THE way, for no one has died and come back to tell us so (excluding Jesus, as that too, is a tale from the Bible confirming itself)

And if you're referring to the Bible, I have read that as well. However, the evolution of the concept of God from the original concept is undeniable, simply reading through history can provide that information, as well as Church doctrine. The book explores that evolution and how it pertains to all the (current) main religions, mostly focusing on the three major monotheistic faith traditions: Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. Very interesting read.

Mary:

Excuse me:

They denied the Christianity of their time: Judaism.

How do you think that people will be judged that lived BC?

"But Jasper, didn't some prominent conservative clerics do exactly the same thing?"

It wasn't the same though Hieronymus. There just seems to be a general dislike of America on the far left, now I'm not saying things are perfect and don't need to change, they do -> abortion. Obama's wife scares me more than him, she seems like one angry black women. I can how she got that way, but listening to Rev. Wright all these years.

"Jesus was either the Son of God or He was a mad man."

Not true, did not the disciples get some of the abilities Jesus himself once had? Yet they were not the Son of God, yet God provided them with these gifts. Does that make them mad? They too (well, many) were martyred, perhaps not to the extreme as Christ, but that martyrdom is undeniable. Were they madmen?

Romans 2:
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

"HisMan, I was directing it towards those two in particular, though didnt Hitler consider himself Christian?"

No he didn't Dan, Hitler simply believed that the Arian race should dominate the earth. No Christian, not at all.

HisMan-

Buddha denied NO ONE. He simply provided a path, you can follow that path and simultaneously follow another religion if one so chooses. The path is not exclusive.

How is it not the same thing? Falwell essentially blamed the behavior and attitudes of liberals, approximately half the population of the United States, for the 9/11 attacks. Katrina was the same thing.

How is that not just as hateful of America?

Hier-

Rod Parsley has said the gates of Hell are/will open(ing) on , is that not also damnation?

It's a matter of being politically correct

Dan,

But none of them claimed to BE the Son of God, and therein lies the difference.

jasper-

I didnt say his behavior was Christian, but didn't he consider himself one was my question.

Dan:

Don't twist my words.

Mohammed claimed that Jesus was a prophet and not the Son of God.

Since Jesus claimed to be God, he cannot simply be a prophet, therefore, either Jesus was the Son of God or a false prophet. Why do you think He was tried in Pontius Pilate's court? Because the Sanhedrin accused Him of blasphemy because of His claim to be God and they trumped up some charge to get him arrested for causing civil unrest.

I have no idea how you made some sort of connection to the apostles.

MK-

yet even if Jesus hadn't made that proclamation, could you really consider him mad? I mean, he had all these "powers" (for lack of a better word) and, like Mohammed and other religious leaders, pushed for the poor, the weak, the disabled,, etc to be helped and pushed for an undying belief in God. Viewing him as a prophet and not the Son of God does ot diminish his accomplishments in anyway, in fact it seems to (from a mortal view) expand them. In fact, many thought son of god to literally be offensive, and saw it as an expression of closeness, etc.

@Jasper: My parents will be mad...but hey, at least I get good grades and I don't sleep around, do drugs, drink myself stupid, smoke, steal, etc.

A wee piercing is nothing in comparison. :)

MK-

yet even if Jesus hadn't made that proclamation, could you really consider him mad? I mean, he had all these "powers" (for lack of a better word) and, like Mohammed and other religious leaders, pushed for the poor, the weak, the disabled,, etc to be helped and pushed for an undying belief in God. Viewing him as a prophet and not the Son of God does ot diminish his accomplishments in anyway, in fact it seems to (from a mortal view) expand them. In fact, many thought son of god to literally be offensive, and saw it as an expression of closeness, etc.

Dan,

I wasn't referring to his behavior either, I was referring to his beliefs, as he believed that a dominant Aryan race should rule the earth.

Dan:

The Apostles were followers of Christ and recieved the gifts of the Spirit as promised in fulfillment of Joel's prohecy. What do you think Pentecost was?

I can see you are opening yourself up to doctrines of demons. Make a decision for Christ. It's that simple.

Yes, but in regards to his beliefs, he also believed himself (though by action he obviously was not) to be Christian in some manner.

HisMan-

yeah, doctrines of demons, thats exactly why I'm considering coming back to the Church *eyeroll*

and regardless of whether or not I rejoin the Church, I do consider myself a Christian by my inerrant beliefs esp in that Jesus is my Lord and Savior, and the Son of God who died for my sins.

Dan:

Jesus Christ was the Lamb of God.

His purpose on earth was not simply to do all this good stuff you talk about. He did miracles to validate His claims. That is not to say that feeding the poor, clothing the naked, etc. is not what we should do. However, from God's point of view we are ALL naked and poor and wretched, even the best of us, as a result of our sin condition.

His purpose was to reveal God's nature to mankind, to show us our utterly hopeless condition apart from Him, and to die on the cross for our sins. If Christ was just a good man and not God we are all without hope in this world.

HisMan-

I was giving an alternate point of view that sees the world in a whole different light. They see no one as the savior but the individuals themselves, accepting God is beyond all understanding and that all they can do is follow the word provided to them in their native tongue in the form of the Koran and to follow the messages, themes, teachings, etc therein as they are able to understand it.

"@Jasper: My parents will be mad...but hey, at least I get good grades and I don't sleep around, do drugs, drink myself stupid, smoke, steal, etc.

A wee piercing is nothing in comparison. :)"

Yes, thats true Rae.

Dan:

Then stop compromising the purity of the Word if what you say is sincere.

A man cannot have two masters.

When you make statements like this, "As for Mohammed, he accepted Christ as a prophet, and accepted Christians, and Jews as well as any other groups that follow "the Book" are accepted as valid by Islam, for no previous revelations are outstripped or overturned by Mohammed, and Islam has what amounts to a to each his own doctrine." it makes me wonder what you believe. In fact Mohammed murdered Jews and Christians who did not bow to the sword of Islam when it was demanded of them.

Jesus said if you deny me before men I will deny you before my Father in heaven.

Dan, I am just urging you, until you have a better grasp of the Bible, to earnestly study only God's word and not get off on these tangents that can only do one thing, lead you astray.

I'm not denying Him before anyone, I'm exposing another culture. Having an understanding of other religions and their thought/spiritual outlooks/etc is not blasphemous or holding anyone before Him. ugh.

HisMan-

as for yout "by the sword" statement. He did NOT nor did Mohammed EVER force conversions, in fact, forcing or even persuading anyone to convert was illegal in 700 AD, and Jews and Christians were held as near equals in Muslim society, not to mention (as I mentioned before) what essentially melts down to a doctrine of to each his own in Islam. Until you have any sort of grasp on Islam (and its history) I'd urge you not to make generalizations or uninformed statements.

Dan:

I am aware of the all the different views on God and there are millions of them.

The Gospel is simple.

Christ was born, Christ lived, Christ died, Christ was resurrected, Christ will come again.

It's that simple.

Paul said this in Galatians 1:

"6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ."

HisMan-

If that belief were all that was required I would be able to call myself a member of any Christian sect, however that is not it's entirty. There are, as I'm sure you are aware, multiple nuances, disagreements, etc, as there always has been since Christianity's beginnings.

HisMan 8:13PM

How would Confucious or Buddha have any knowledge of or deny Judaism? They lived in Asia.

Mary-

Good point, Muhammad had no knowledge of the oriental religions and he was nomadic for much of his life and involved in conquest in Arabia. How would those in the orient have knowledge of Jewish customs/thought?

Mary-

Good point, Muhammad had no knowledge of the oriental religions and he was nomadic for much of his life and involved in conquest in Arabia. How would those in the orient have knowledge of Jewish customs/thought?

Edyt, clearly you do not understand how significant it is that the publisher of the New York Times is an extremist liberal. This is the most influential newspaper in America, and content from it appears in papers across the country.

And you're right, sure, the Media Research Center which has compiled hundreds of examples of liberal bias in the mainstream media is really just a bunch of conservative liars. Of course!!

Dan:

This is just a sampling of Mohammed:

"Banu Qurayza
The Banu Qurayza had been reluctant in helping Mohammed against the Quraysh (Keep in mind that the Quraysh tribe were Mohammed's own people). Conveniently once again, Mohammed claimed that he had divine knowledge about a conspiracy by the Banu-Qurayza to kill him. This became his justification to starve the tribe into surrender by besieging their fortress for twenty-five days. He then sentenced every male member of the tribe to death, enslaved all the women and children, and plundered all of their property.

The prophet had an immense trench dug around the main market of Medina10 and then the men of the Banu Qurayza were rounded up one by one and forced to the edge of the trench on their knees. They were offered a last chance to convert to Islam and if they refused, their heads were cut off.11 As soon as one head would roll off, the corpse would be kicked into the ditch, and so it went. By daybreak hundreds of corpses had been piled up in a heap, tangled cesspool of blood, hair, and shreds of flesh. Despite the horrific end in front of their eyes, none of the Jews chose to convert to Islam and faced death valiantly. The blood of nearly 900 innocent Jews stained Mohammed's hands on that black day.12

Their only crime was that they chose to retain their fundamental human right, of choosing their own God and the religion of their ancestors. Hysterical women and children screamed as they watched their fathers, husbands and sons brutally murdered. The majority of them were savagely raped and then bundled off to be sold as 'used goods.' The prophet had the husband of the Jewess Raihana Bint Amr hacked to pieces before her very eyes hours after he had murdered her father.13 After these atrocities he raped the mortified girl and tried to force her to convert to Islam.

Many Muslim revisionist-historians promote the idea that Raihana Bint Amr willingly submitted to Mohammed. According to this logic, it is very natural to imagine that a woman who has just seen her husband, father, brothers, and tribe slaughtered violently before her very eyes, would choose to convert to the religion of the murderer and marry him! Ultimately she refused to convert to Islam as well as marry him so he retained her as a lowly concubine for the rest of his life.14 So much for the 'Apostle of Peace' and his unbounded respect for women. Mohammed was nothing but a serial rapist, who acquired his victims by killing their families first.

Islam's allah has provided yet another timeless Divine revelation which gives his prophet the right to rape and torture women of other religions.

Surat 4:24
"And all married women are forbidden unto you EXCEPT those captives whom your right hand possesses. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that you seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery..."

In short, allah the all merciful is affirming that any non-Muslim woman is fair game to rape provided she is "captured" first - "..lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned..." - how divine!

ugh, another double post.

Alright, well I better be off to bed before the g'rents get tiffed. So I'll hopefully talk to you all tomorrow.

I'll do some reading :)

Alright, anyway, have a nice night, and God bless :)

Mary:

Apparently you didn't read Paul's statement in Romans.

Dan:

You are simple trying to sow confusion and I will have no more of it.

Dan, read this:

"Banu-L-Mustaliq
Mohammed attacked the Banu-L-Mustaliq tribe slaughtering many of its members in a surprise raid, and driving the rest into the sea. They looted away a booty of 2000 camels, 5000 sheep and 500 women! The 500 women were captured screaming and crying while they watched their husbands and sons being slaughtered. The most beautiful captive was Juwayriyya, daughter of the chief of the Banu-L-Mustaliq. Mohammed snatched her to satisfy his own lusts.16 The captured women were supposed to be returned by the Muslims upon payment of a ransom, but the night after the battle itself, Mohammed and his army raped each and every one of them.17

Any human being with the slightest shred of morality has to be nauseated by this man and the religion he preached. Mohammed, the supreme religious figurehead of Islam, sanctioned rape, pure and simple. Not only did the Muslims commit this horrifying crime, they deceived the tribesmen into paying ransom for their womenfolk, who only paid the money in a desperate attempt to save their women's honor.

As Mecca began to feel the economic impact of its trading losses from continued Islamists attacks, Mohammed's power and influence continued to grow in the north. In 628 a.d. the Meccans signed a 10 year peace agreement named, 'The al-Hudaybiyah,' with Mohammed and his Muslim followers. This treaty allowed Muslims to return to Mecca and worship at the Kaba once a year. Out of fear, the people of Mecca would leave their city when the Muslims would come to worship.

Two years later, in January 630 a.d., Mohammed nullifies the treaty of al-Hudaybiyah and invades Mecca with an army of 10,000 terrorists, conquering it.18 He options the citizenry to convert to Islam or be killed by sword (beheading). From Mecca, the 'Muslims' wage Jihad on the surrounding cities forcing them to accept Islam as their religion and Mohammed as their prophet. Through their policy of 'conversion by the sword' Islam had spread as far as Spain, India, and most of North Africa by 637.

Mohammed made his final Hijra in 632 and died unexpectedly 3 months later in June. His friend and father in law Abu Bakr (Father of Aisha) succeeded him as leader of the Muslims.19

The centuries that followed, from the Iberian Peninsula to the Indian subcontinent, jihad campaigns waged by Muslim armies against infidel Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Buddhists and Hindus, were punctuated by massacres, including mass throat slittings and beheadings. During the period of 'enlightened' Muslim rule, the Christians of Iberian Toledo, who had first submitted to their Arab Muslim invaders in 711, revolted in 713. In the harsh Muslim reprisal that ensued, Toledo was pillaged, and all the Christian notables had their throats cut.

Mohammed was in fact a terrorist, criminal, and murderer whose entire life and teachings were based on victimizing innocents and indulging in mindless violence and massacre. He was a man who destroyed peace wherever he went, and in its place brought terror, carnage, and death. So how can it be a mystery to anyone that his teachings - the Qur'an - would reap a harvest any different than what the world is experiencing today?"

HisMan,

Please, what was the statement?

HisMan-

The Quraysh tried to exterminate the Muslims, their own tribemen and their servants, wives, children, etc. It was kill or be killed, perhaps you should read up on your history, again HM. I trust a historian who cites sources and has been published over you and uncited quotations.

Now I'm off to bed, g'night. :)

HisMan,

Kindly answer my post of 9:13PM. Did Paul have knowledge of the Far East and its peoples? I'm at a loss to understand how two people in Asia could have had any more knowledge of Judaism than I would have of the Asian religions of Shintoism or Taoism being that I grew up in the American midwest.

The only nations who seemed to be able to deal with the muslims were Spain and Poland.

Mary:

God knows.

Romans 2:
"12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

@HisMan: Mary isn't asking for Bible quotes as to how Buddha et. al. could have known about Jesus or even Judaism when there *wasn't* any Judaism in Asia. Do you have any historical explanations? Or maybe an explicit bible passage that says, "Peter went to India and met the Buddha".

@Patricia: And how is that?