The Left's bizarre protection of criminals is disturbing, and it stems from their incredible self-righteousness about their insane positions. They want to protect child-molesters and rapists, claiming they can be rehabilitated, while at the same time refusing to accept that homosexuality is psychological. They protect those who murder and rape, and yet brush off the unborn as blobs of tissue, no more worthy of protection than an ant on the kitchen table.

This spotlights the sanctity of life: It is so precious, those taking innocent human life should be meted the ultimate punishment.

Does it spotlight the sanctity of life? Does it really, especially in light of innocent lives being taken by the death penalty?

What harm is done with keeping an individual imprisoned for life and unable to kill? Why must be tear out the hearts of the murder's family and make more victims. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Sometimes, the death penalty is necessary to protect society, but most of the time, it's not. It's vindictive more than justice.

"They want to protect child-molesters and rapists, claiming they can be rehabilitated, while at the same time refusing to accept that homosexuality is psychological."

Homosexuality =/= pedophilia genius.

And no, I don't think child molesters or rapists can be rehabilitated...nor should they be killed. They should be locked up in solitary confinement, never to see the light of day again. Sit in a tiny cell with only their sick thoughts to punish themselves with.

Jacqueline, the Bible does not call the death penalty a wrong. It calls it a right, a righting of a wrong.

It is not our fault if the death of a convicted murderer "tears the heart out of the murderer's family," it is the murderer's fault.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad trade-off to imprison these people for life, although they do get to live, and society does have to pay for it.

But this isn't a hill I want to die on, pardon the pun, with my own people.

"This spotlights the sanctity of life: It is so precious, those taking innocent human life should be meted the ultimate punishment."

Yet the sanctity of life for the prisoner doesn't matter. Respecting life by killing it? Talk about hypocrisy!

Also, society pays for the state to kill- and that's millions of dollars per person.

The death penalty is righteous, and many criminals deserve to die. There is absolutely no contradiction between being pro-life for the innocent unborn and pro-capital punishment for guilty murderers.

But, as I've said before, to paraphrase Tolkien, many who live deserve death, but many who die deserve life... and I can't give it to them. As long as we can be sure that these criminals are no threat to anyone else, there is no need to execute them.

PIP, the only reason why it costs more to kill a prisoner than it does to preserve him alive is the expense of endless appeals and all of the time the prisoner spends in jail during the appeals process.

If we were to execute people immediately after they were found guilty, or even after one appeal, the death penalty would be far, far less expensive than keeping people in jail for life.

Actually they were dealing with a METHOD of capital punishment, not the issue of capital punishment itself.

I personally believe that the verdict of capital punishment has a valid place in our jucicial system. If nothing else it may give a modicum of protection to other inmates and to prison personnel. But I dont agree with HOW its handed down now. I think in a lot of cases life without possibility of parole would be just as effective.

I believe in the death penalty, but the "cocktail" they use as a euthanasia agent is so poor that it isn't used in veterinary practice.

If we were to execute people immediately after they were found guilty, or even after one appeal, the death penalty would be far, far less expensive than keeping people in jail for life.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at April 17, 2008 12:11 PM
****************
And one whole heck of a lot more innocent people would have been killed over the years too

Just happened to be reading this at lunch right before you posted:

Genesis 9:5-6

And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made Man.

I'll leave the application as an exercise to the readers.

I don't think it is hypocritical to be pro-choice and anti-death penalty, because they are very different. Not only that, but it's not pro-choicer's goal to just kill off members of society, which is where people get all mixed up and confused, like Jill here, since pro-lifers think the abortion argument is all about the life of the "innocent child." (Antithetical to the actual Biblical notion that all are sinful)

There are many reasons to oppose the death penalty, one of which is that we have often executed innocent people. Now, with DNA evidence, hopefully we can get our police officers and investigators to pay more attention to the facts of the case, rather than hunting down someone just to punish someone.

There is an immense race and class bias.

It's hypocritical to punish violence with violence. Like when you hit your child for hitting another child. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't fix the problem. Nor does it teach forgiveness, mercy, or grace.

It seems that life is only "precious" until you decide it's not good enough and seek to destroy it. That doesn't make a person pro-life. That only means they want the power to control who lives and who dies.

Jacqueline, the Bible does not call the death penalty a wrong. It calls it a right, a righting of a wrong.

And Jesus came and explained that now s that god's wrath is satisfied through Jesus' sacrifice, we are required to return grace and mercy as it is given to us. The only Biblical argument made for this is under old testament Judaic law, which Jesus explains, "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

You'll be hard-pressed to find the new testament arguing for the death penalty.

and society does have to pay for it.

It's actually much more expensive to kill people, if you value the sanctity of human life enough to let these people have a proper defense.

It is not our fault if the death of a convicted murderer "tears the heart out of the murderer's family," it is the murderer's fault.

No, it's not. We don't have to kill him. What does killing people do that imprisonment can't- except of course for handing the enemy more death and destruction, which he loves, as well as the soul of the murderer.

I don't understand how anyone can be pro-death penalty, especially in light of all the DNA exonerations. How can one support the sanctity of life knowing that this unnecessary killing also takes innocent lives?

If we were to execute people immediately after they were found guilty, or even after one appeal, the death penalty would be far, far less expensive than keeping people in jail for life.

And the odds of killing an innocent person are greater this way. I bet you wouldn't be advocating swift execution if you were falsely accused.

What's wrong with lifetime imprisonment?

Aw, Edyt, Shuddup!

You people that advocate for dismembering babies while think that vicious murderers should be cuddled just disgusts me.

I am for mercy for murderers- but you're not for mercy for disabled women, who die over 2 weeks of agony from dehydration and starvation, or for innocent babies who just happened to be concieved by women that care about themselves more than their children.

Your opinion is not valid. I would respect you more if you had a "kill em all" attitude" rather than condemning babies but taking up the cause of the guilty.

"innocent child." (Antithetical to the actual Biblical notion that all are sinful)

You have no idea what you're talking about. Unborn babies have committed no actual sin. They have original sin, which Jesus defeated on the cross. But they are innocevent of actual wrongdoing.

Besides, we don't execute people because they have original sin.

Rae: I never mentioned pedophile, and I am quite aware that homosexuality is not the same. They are both, however, psychological sexual preferences, and to say that homosexuals are "born that way" but pedophiles are not is laughably absurd.

On another note: there is no credible evidence of anyone innocent dying from the death penalty in our country for the past 80 years. Lack of DNA at the scene does not equal innocence.

I've written in other fora where I am both pro life and against the death penalty. I deplore war but am not against it in all cases.

Jill, I remember your Governor Ryan (for all his other faults) suspending the death penalty in Illinois in the year 2000. My wife and I watched his long speech and even though we were the only ones in the room both of us ended up applauding.

We (my wife and I) had also rejoiced in the earlier death penalty moratorium which ended in 1973 (how appropo).

It is really odd, how some states choose the death penalty and others do not. I think life in prison without parole would suffice. Then, if we learn at a later time, the person was innocent, not 'no harm done', but rather 'lesser harm done'.

Read, if you will, 'Innocent Man' but John Grisham (yes, that John Grisham). It will open your eyes to the justice we have in this land.

Nathan- you don't know that. Futhermore, innocent people on death row are exonerated all the time before execution due to that pesky, lengthy, expensive judicial process John wants to do away with.

Since in order to prevent (but not ensure) that innocent people aren't killed, we drain our resources on the legal process- when it would be cheaper, more merciless, more humane, and erring on the side of life to just imprison them.

So why don't we skip the middle man and just imprison people rather than kill them?

@Nathan: Ah, now that makes more sense. Your initial post made it seem as though all pedophiles were homosexual. My bad.

I do think pedophiles are born that way, I mean, something has to be very wrong in your wiring to be attracted to children. Does this mean they are excused from their actions? Hell no. It's called "impulse control.

Though, for what it's worth, I think most pedophiles aren't really "in love" with children, it's all about power and control. Just like rape.

Jacqueline said: "And the odds of killing an innocent person are greater this way."

Of course. But I was explaining exactly why it is so expensive to put someone to death. I wasn't saying that it's a bad thing. People who are pro-capital punishment always have the talking point thrown in their face that the death penalty is expensive, so I feel obligated to explain why whenever that comes up.

"What's wrong with lifetime imprisonment?"

Jacqueline, I am in favor of lifetime imprisonment, as I already stated in this thread. I cannot give life to those innocent people who have died, so I do not believe I have the right to condemn those who live but deserve to die.

Jacqueline, I am in favor of lifetime imprisonment, as I already stated in this thread. I cannot give life to those innocent people who have died, so I do not believe I have the right to condemn those who live but deserve to die.

Thanks for clearing that up, John. I'd hate to lose my crush on you. :)

The most humane and painless way to kill a person is cervical dislocation (rapid separation of the head from the spine)--that's drop-hanging, with a HIGH platform and a LONG rope. If the rope is too short you die from strangulation (slow and painful), not cervical dislocation.

I'd rather be drop-hung from a high platform with a long rope (or for that matter guillotined) than killed by lethal injection.

Rae said: "I do think pedophiles are born that way, I mean, something has to be very wrong in your wiring to be attracted to children. Does this mean they are excused from their actions? Hell no. It's called "impulse control."

But by the logic that is applied to teenagers and young adults, they can't control their impulses, so we should just give them all condoms.

To Nathan Sheets 12:44pm

See Ruben Cantu, executed in Texas in 1993.

Some links:

www.truthinjustice.org/cantu.htm

standdown.typepad.com/weblog/ruben_cantu/index.html

www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?&did=2238

www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_11/007608.php

Google him, for more links. He was innocent.

If we were to execute people immediately after they were found guilty, or even after one appeal, the death penalty would be far, far less expensive than keeping people in jail for life.

And the odds of killing an innocent person are greater this way. I bet you wouldn't be advocating swift execution if you were falsely accused.

What's wrong with lifetime imprisonment?

Posted by: Jacqueline at April 17, 2008 12:37 PM
******************************
I think if no other reason then capital punishment should be in place for the safety of other inmates and prison guards. If you already have someone in for life then he's not going to have anything to lose if he tries to attack either another prisoner or a guard. He can be kept in solitary confinement etc etc etc but there would still be the possibility of attacking someone. I also think that for people like Bundy and Gacy its appropriate. Some people are just too dangerous to keep drawing breath.

Aw, Edyt, Shuddup!

Why? Logic hurts your sheltered mind?

You people that advocate for dismembering babies while think that vicious murderers should be cuddled just disgusts me.

I never said that. But thanks for setting up a strawman. Makes you look REEEAAAL smart in front of the other pro-lifers.

I am for mercy for murderers- but you're not for mercy for disabled women, who die over 2 weeks of agony from dehydration and starvation, or for innocent babies who just happened to be concieved by women that care about themselves more than their children.

Sometimes mercy is death.

Your opinion is not valid. I would respect you more if you had a "kill em all" attitude" rather than condemning babies but taking up the cause of the guilty.

I'm not "taking up the cause of the guilty." I merely explained our death penalty is hypocritical, racist, and happens to end in the deaths of innocent lives.

BTW, I don't have a stance on the death penalty. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I can argue either side if I want to. Of course, that takes SEEING both sides... which pro-lifers are notoriously bad at.

Aw, Edyt, Shuddup!

You people that advocate for dismembering babies while think that vicious murderers should be cuddled just disgusts me.

I am for mercy for murderers- but you're not for mercy for disabled women, who die over 2 weeks of agony from dehydration and starvation, or for innocent babies who just happened to be concieved by women that care about themselves more than their children.

Your opinion is not valid. I would respect you more if you had a "kill em all" attitude" rather than condemning babies but taking up the cause of the guilty.

Posted by: Jacqueline at April 17, 2008 12:41 PM
*********************
More melodramatic sensationalistic hysteria.
No one is talking about doing anything to 'innocent babies'. Vegetables dont experience 'agony' or 'suffering'. And no one is talking about 'cuddling' murderers. Rants like that dont do a thing for your argument. In fact they come across as ridiculous and hysterical.

Jacqueline, sorry for the misunderstanding! Heh!

I actually used to support the death penalty for people who rape and murder women and children. Whenever that happens, I am enraged, and I feel like the universe is crying out for justice to be done upon the criminal. But I changed my mind about the death penalty when I learned that it doesn't effectively prevent future crimes. What's the point?

I still can't say that I'm going to be particularly upset about it if someone like that is condemned to death, but personally I would rather they be given life in prison.

On another note: there is no credible evidence of anyone innocent dying from the death penalty in our country for the past 80 years. Lack of DNA at the scene does not equal innocence.

Posted by: Nathan Sheets at April 17, 2008 12:44 PM
************************
When its someone ELSES DNA it certainly suggests SOMETHING.

Rae: I never mentioned pedophile, and I am quite aware that homosexuality is not the same. They are both, however, psychological sexual preferences, and to say that homosexuals are "born that way" but pedophiles are not is laughably absurd.

******************
THere is nothing absurd about it. One has nothing to do with the other. Pedophiles are typically the victims of abuse themselves or experience some trauma which causes them to fixate on children instead of adults. That has nothing at all to do with adults who are attracted to other adults of the same gender.

Well - Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy arent going to be killing anyone else - they are obviously 'deterred'.

Edyt said: "Why? Logic hurts your sheltered mind?"

No, SHUT UP because every day all of you pro-aborts come on here and tell us why unborn children don't have a right to life, and you tell us that they can be killed on a whim from their mothers.

And today you come on here and argue in defense of the right to life of murderers. Eventhough you don't have a personal stance on the death penalty, it is indeed very, very sickening that you so easily dismiss the right of innocent children to live while saying anything in defense of guilty murderers.

You say that some of those people on death row are innocent. That's true; that's another reason why I decided to be against the death penalty. But while it's true that SOME on death row are innocent, EVERY SINGLE ONE IN THE WOMB is innocent.

The seventh commandment, as interpreted by conservatives:
Thou shalt not murder the infant within its mothers womb. After it is born, open season.

Well, I've seen enough hate on this board in the past few days to make me realize why I left in the first place.

You don't want healthy debate, you want mudslinging. You want to misrepresent someone else's argument just to shoot them down, even though that's not what the argument was about.

You hate all who disagree, and don't mind telling them.

You are judgmental, and want to control the lives of everyone else.

You don't accept facts when they disagree with your mythical fantasies.

You are hypocrites, and you can justify life and death simultaneously in the Bible, all the while ignoring the hideousness of your religion.

You are disrespectful, crude, selfish people.

I have seen blogs where debate is encouraged, and this is the only one where the moderators will let pro-lifers say the most damning things and get away with it, whereas pro-choicers are told to shut up every time they mention something contrary.

Well, fuck you. I wish I believed in hell, because I would love to see you all burning in it.

"On another note: there is no credible evidence of anyone innocent dying from the death penalty in our country for the past 80 years. Lack of DNA at the scene does not equal innocence.

Posted by: Nathan Sheets at April 17, 2008 12:44 PM"

*snaps*
What is wrong with you? See www.innocenceproject.org for one of the dozens of cases when innocent people have been sentenced to death.

Why? Logic hurts your sheltered mind?

Explain the logic behind arguing the right to life of convicted murderers while saying innocent children have no such right to live?

I never said that. But thanks for setting up a strawman. Makes you look REEEAAAL smart in front of the other pro-lifers.

Thanks. I have no self-consciousness regarding my intelligence. I just wish you were as smart as I am. :)

I'm not "taking up the cause of the guilty." I merely explained our death penalty is hypocritical, racist, and happens to end in the deaths of innocent lives.

Hipocritical, racist and ends in the deaths of innocent lives. Sounds like abortion to me! Oh wait, abortion is a "right" that you support.

Sometimes mercy is death.

Okay- it's more merciful to imprison someone for life than to kill them. I agree.

Now, how is dismemberment more merciful that life, potentially a life with a couple who has waited years to adopt and wants nothing more than to shower that child with love.

I applaud this decision.

Both the Old and New Testaments, both before Moses and after Jesus, sanction the death penalty for dangerous offenders.

(Gen.9:5; Ro 13:4)

Perhaps if there weren't so many dangerous repeat offenders sitting in our jails, all the pedophiles and sex offenders wouldn't be walking our streets and killing children.
I mean seriously, who in their right mind would have a problem with giving the death penalty to someone like Robert Picton? He will never be rehabilitated 'cause he's just far too gone. He's just plain evil.

Well, fuck you. I wish I believed in hell, because I would love to see you all burning in it.

Thanks! That's sweet!

I am sorry that you have such awfully thin skin. I'd like to point out that while I did tell you to shut up because you #*&%^&( annoying me, I didn't delete your post. You are allowed to say what you want, but apparently you're just touchy.

If you want to leave, be my guest. But if you want to stay, name-calling is not an argument. Say something substantive.

HA! None of you care for substantive arguments. What a load.

Both the Old and New Testaments, both before Moses and after Jesus, sanction the death penalty for dangerous offenders.

Alright- show me some new testament support!

Edyt: Calm down. Why are you getting so upset? Do you really wish that I would burn in hell? I don't wish that on you.

HA! None of you care for substantive arguments. What a load.

Then go away. Or stay. Just quitcherbitchin.

Desley, 1:45PM

I am absolutely convinced there are people who are born evil. Our efforts to "rehabilitate" them are laughable, especially to them. They love playing society for idiots and do, that's how they stay alive and reap another opportunity to kill again. Ted Bundy tried to snivel his way out of the death penalty. What is alarming is there are people like Dr. Dobson who fell for his sob story about his childhood exposure to pornography. My respect for Dr.Dobson remains diminished to this day.

LOL Born evil or were they evil at conception?

This whole article can be summed up by the bumper of a car I saw in Redding, CA two summers ago. I will never forget it. It had two stickers...one on the left and one on the right.

The one on the left said:

ABOLISH THE DEATH PENALTY

The one on the right said:

KEEP ABORTION LEGAL

Ohhh...to have had a camera phone at that moment...

Oh, Edyt...I apoligize if that was your car.

Jill 11:58am

Good point. Now for once let's stop and concern ourselves with what the survivors of murder victims live with daily. Maybe we can ask the surviving families of the Manson murder victims what its like to think about your loved ones being butchered, literally. We could talk to the parents of the women Richard Speck slaughterd but the stress of the butchery of their daughters and efforts to keep Speck from getting parole took a toll on their health and lives. He outlived them all, enjoyed prison life, and remained ever unremorseful about the murders. When asked why he did it he responded "just wasn't their night". Maybe we should be thankful the parents didn't live to see and hear the video where he made this statement and said that if people knew how much he enjoyed prison, they'd turn him loose.

I am absolutely convinced there are people who are born evil. Our efforts to "rehabilitate" them are laughable, especially to them.

I disagree. I think the evil comes from conditioning, not genetics.

I challenge you to read about attachent disorders- like anti-social personality disorders. All these famous murderers had attachment issues.

TR, 1:22PM,

We agree again!

Good point. Now for once let's stop and concern ourselves with what the survivors of murder victims live with daily.

Grief, pain, horrible emotions.

News Flash: These don't go away when the murderer is killed.

The death penalty solves nothing.

Jacqueline, 2:01PM

I'm sorry but I cannot agree. I believe people are born sociopathic and there is evidence to support this. You might want to google anti-personality disorder, which is sociopathy.
I've seen too many people from great homes turn out terrible and too many people from terrible childhoods turn out good. I'm convinced its inborn.
Children will often show signs in childhood of personality disorders, of which anti-social is one. My father was a borderline personality disorder and my daughter is a clone of his behavior, its like he was born again. You'll never convince me there isn't an hereditary factor.

Jacqueline 2:03PM

My point is we concern ourselves little with the victims or their survivors. We care too much about "understanding" the perpetrator and protecting him or her.
How do you think the survivors of Richard Speck's victims would have felt seeing that video? I understand the mother of one of John Gacy's victims felt even more brutalized seeing his artwork being sold on the street.

They don't call her Ruth "badgirl" Ginsberg for nothing.....

David Souter ran as a stealth nominee and hid his liberalism from GHWB1. Turned out to be a very bad justice.

Jacqueline,

Please google "personality disorders". There's a wealth of information and increasing evidence of "faulty wiring" of the brain.

Did that "faulty" wiring begin at conception?

I disagree. I think the evil comes from conditioning, not genetics.

I beg to differ. My husband's two adult daughters are from the same mother and raised in the EXACT same household and held to the EXACT same standards and rules.

One is in college working two jobs and getting straight A's and paying all her own bills.

The other is an un-wed, un-employed welfare looser with two kids by two different unidentified dads...and she treats those kids like a suitcase of flotsam...they virtually fend for themselves. She is a high school drop-out, a klepto and a pathalogical liar. Further, she has been a klepto and liar since she was a very small child. You couldn't ask for a better example of a "bad seed".

Of course there is a genetic factor to mental illness- but this lack of a conscience is developed primarily through neglect.

Also, some choose to be evil. It has nothing to do with birth. You're right that some are raised well and act bad and some are raised bad and act good. This is a choice.

Edyt,

I believe in some cases, yes. I'm convinced my daughter's condition is hereditary. According to some literature I've read, it is. I know my children were all born with distinctlty different personalities. I always saw something "different" in my oldest daughter from toddlerhood on up. I failed to recognize what were early symptons of her disorder.

Jacqueline,

There's evidence lack of conscience is inborn, and will be present no matter what type of childhood the person has. Its estimated that 25% of the American population are sociopaths, and I don't believe they are such because of neglect. Most sociopaths are not criminals, they're people you meet in every day life, but they are people that once you recognize as sociopaths be on guard. Know this is what you're dealing with and act accordingly. Expect them to lie, manipulate, play on your sympathy,etc.
Also, not all criminals are sociopaths either. So yes, some people choose to commit evil.

I think the whole 'bad seed' is a cop out. It lets the evildoer escape responsibility for their actions and parents don't have to blame themselves.

For every good kid raised in a bad home that overcomes it and does well for themselves, there is a parent taking undue credit.

For every bad kid, there is some parent claiming they were just a bad seed.

I'm not saying you should blame yourself for the bad daughter's failures, but calling her diseased from birth is just a way of excusing her bad choices and excusing yourself from any influence in those choices. Likewise, can you take credit for the good daughter's choices, or was she just wired to succeed?

I don't know whether a person is born like that or not...of course, as a Bible-believing Christian I believe we are all born sinners and we're also sinners by choice. It makes no difference to me. At some point a person makes their own decisions. All we do as a society when we feel sorry for these people is give them more reasons to excuse their behaviour. I'm pretty certain that if the death penalty was reinstated in my country there would be far less serious offenses.

Honestly, what else do you do with a man who hung women on cattle hooks, grinded up the bodies their bodies and fed them to the neighbourhood?

I think we should have the death penalty for convicted REPEAT dangerous offenders. That way they've had their chance to be rehabilitated, and there's no possiblity of killing an innocent person.

This spotlights the sanctity of life: It is so precious, those taking innocent human life should be meted the ultimate punishment.

Does it spotlight the sanctity of life? Does it really, especially in light of innocent lives being taken by the death penalty?

What harm is done with keeping an individual imprisoned for life and unable to kill? Why must be tear out the hearts of the murder's family and make more victims. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Sometimes, the death penalty is necessary to protect society, but most of the time, it's not. It's vindictive more than justice.

Could not have worded it any better myself!

Jacqueline 1:49pm

I don't know how else to interpret Romans chapt.13 It's my understanding that he's referring to the death penalty. Why else would the governing authorities have a sword?

I'm not saying you should blame yourself for the bad daughter's failures, but calling her diseased from birth is just a way of excusing her bad choices and excusing yourself from any influence in those choices. Likewise, can you take credit for the good daughter's choices, or was she just wired to succeed?
OK—FIRST of all, I am not calling her “diseased”. I am NOT excusing ANY of her behavior and I am not making ANY excuses for the bad kid and/or taking credit for the good kid. You have totally misunderstood me. My point is that people are born with distinctive personalities—one kid has a proclivity for honesty, responsibility and hard work. The other is her complete opposite. You simply cannot explain that by environmental influences since they were raised in the same environment—which was my point.
You might want to remember we are on the same side before you unsheathe your claws on me again…I did not take kindly to your accusations.

Jacqueline,

An added note. I read one opinion calling attachment disorder a crock. The writer insisted these children are sociopaths, likely the children of sociopaths, which would explain the poor parenting. He was convinced it was hereditary. I'm very sorry but I can't source that. I just read it briefly.

Pansy, it does do harm to keep these people locked up for life. It leaves no room for other less dangerous criminals but who should still be doing time.

Don't you think there's something wrong when we have pedophiles walking the streets because there's no room in the prisons for them?

You say that some of those people on death row are innocent. That's true; that's another reason why I decided to be against the death penalty. But while it's true that SOME on death row are innocent, EVERY SINGLE ONE IN THE WOMB is innocent.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at April 17, 2008 1:25 PM
******************
none of the people on death row are in my body either but if they tried I can pretty well guarantee Id make every effort possible to remove them AND see that they die .... and I think its absurd to try to pretend oblivious nonviable tissue is 'innocent'

Gee...and TR had been sounding almost rational lately.

Now, how is dismemberment more merciful that life, potentially a life with a couple who has waited years to adopt and wants nothing more than to shower that child with love.

Posted by: Jacqueline at April 17, 2008 1:43 PM
***************
I dont view having a child I dont want and cant take care of, turning it over to total strangers and then just hoping for the best to be particularly responsible. And there is a very unfortunate parallell between adoption and criminal activity - in fact I think quite a few serial killers were adopted.

And there is a very unfortunate parallell between adoption and criminal activity - in fact I think quite a few serial killers were adopted.

And here comes the trusty dusty same-ole same-ole arguments....

*Sigh*

I think I'll go watch a movie.

Edyt, stop whining. Nobody on here claimed to hate you. Nobody on here said anything about controlling the lives of others. Though I don't agree with the death penalty, the righteousness of it is plain as day in the text of the Bible.

Another atheist pro-abort condemns us all to hell, ho hum. Edyt, chill out, will you?

Good point. Now for once let's stop and concern ourselves with what the survivors of murder victims live with daily.

Grief, pain, horrible emotions.

News Flash: These don't go away when the murderer is killed.

The death penalty solves nothing.

Posted by: Jacqueline at April 17, 2008 2:03 PM
**********************
A lot of the victims family members say that the execution of the person who murdered their loved one gives them closure and a sense of peace.

Anon,

part of these problems could be solved if we take a hard look at the way we prosecute drug offenders.

Jacqueline 2:54PM

I'm not saying the evildoer is not responsible for the actions. Even sociopaths are capable of deciding to be criminals or not. I'm saying that there are people born without conscience and will have no qualms about committing evil. Even the sociopaths you meet in every day life and are law abiding are people to be wary of. You must keep in mind they have NO conscience, no empathy, have little if any capacity for human emotion, and that they see you as someone to use and manipulate. All the while they will appear extremely charming, caring, know exactly what your weaknesses are and play them to their advantage.

Please Jacqueline, I make no excuses. This is a heartbreak I live with and will die with. I knew there was something neurologically wrong by the time she was a teenager. She was a "different" child, plagued by horrific nightmares and self injury. Classic childhood and adolescent BPD symptoms I am thankful I have an answer and in acquiring that answer finally understood my father and what destroyed him. I can only hope she doesn't die alone in a rathole like her grandfather did.

If anything Jacqueline I feel I have been very blessed to have an answer. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I saw episodes of psychotic behavior and insane rages in both my father and daughter as well as other similar traits. Yes I am absolutely convinced this is hereditary. Another positive aspect is that I have been able to share my experience and research with other parents facing the same situation I did years ago. I only hope they can give their children the help I could never give mine.

Hooves in Maw 3:38PM

I think Jacqueline was directing her post at me.

TR 3:58PM

AMEN!!

http://investigation.discovery.com/tv/most-evil/ep-guide/most-evil-ep-guide.html

Anon,

part of these problems could be solved if we take a hard look at the way we prosecute drug offenders.

Posted by: prettyinpink at April 17, 2008 3:59 PM
**************
I think pot should be legal and treated the same way we treat alcohol - would go a long way to lightening the burden on our legal system. And no, I dont smoke and never have.

TR 3:58PM

AMEN!!

Posted by: Mary at April 17, 2008 4:03 PM
*****************
I enjoy watching Court TV and the shows about forensics on Discovery and A&E etc - they frequently talk to the family members and friends of murder victims. Their anger and pain is palpable and time after time they say that the execution of the person guilty brought them a sense of closure and a sense of peace.

Hooves in Maw 3:57PM

Could these serial killers have been the children of sociopaths? They may have been placed for adoption or removed from parents incapable and unwilling to care for and love a child. Just a thought.

I dont view having a child I dont want and cant take care of, turning it over to total strangers and then just hoping for the best to be particularly responsible.

But killing a child, that's responsible! Since when have pro-aborts cared about responsibility? The whole point of abortion is to remove the responsibility the woman holds for having had sex.

By the way, very few adoptions are closed. You pick the families and have a relationship with them and your child. So you don't have to hope for the best, you see everything.

There are some major red lights in childrens behavior that serial killers seem to have in common - bed wetting at a late age, pyromania, and sadistic behavior towards smaller / weaker children and towards animals. A whole lot of serial killers were abused as children and a whole lot seem to have suffered some kind of major head trauma. But why one person will have the same basic kind of upbrining and turn out fine and another will become a career criminal or a serial killer is something no one has yet found out.

Mary,

I'm very sorry. These mental illnesses are real and heartbreaking, and I didn't mean to sound trivializing of what you have to endure.

My sincerest apologies. Please forgive me.

If anyone is interested, CrimeLibrary has a whole section on serial killers - I find it fascinating. But my degree is in psychology.

Serial killer adoptions were done because of deaths of mothers, neglectful mothers or abuse.

Any of the above can be the cause of their behavior, NOT the adoption.

I dont view having a child I dont want and cant take care of, turning it over to total strangers and then just hoping for the best to be particularly responsible.

But killing a child, that's responsible! Since when have pro-aborts cared about responsibility? The whole point of abortion is to remove the responsibility the woman holds for having had sex.

By the way, very few adoptions are closed. You pick the families and have a relationship with them and your child. So you don't have to hope for the best, you see everything.

Posted by: Jacqueline at April 17, 2008 4:22 PM
***********************
Its illegal to kill children. Trying to pretend that I am a 'pro abort' and dont care anything about responsibility just makes you look stupid and dishonest. As I said, I dont view having a child you dont want and cant take care of then giving it away to someone else to raise as a responsible course of action. In fact I'd rather abort than run the risk of someone like you getting the child. Its as simple as that.

TR 4:16PM

How interesting. What I have seen and heard along that line is the torment family members go through knowing the killers are still alive and more concern is shown for their "rights" and humane treatment than was ever shown their murdered loved ones.
I remember when the founder of a Los Angeles gang was going to be executed. Of course the sob sisters and Hollywood hobnobs were out in force supporting his "rehabilitation". This is racism. Why, he's writing children's books against gangs. No you idiots, he's playing you for chumps so he can stay alive.
They interviewed one lone black woman who lost her only child because of this thug. She not only wanted him executed for the murder of her child, but also held him responsible for the deaths of hundreds of young black men and women. Of course there were no cries of racism over their deaths, its only racist to execute the one responsible for their deaths.
He was executed and I hope this poor woman has some closure. At least she won't have to make trips to prison to make sure he doesn't get out on parole, as the family members of Manson and Speck's victims had to.

Serial killer adoptions were done because of deaths of mothers, neglectful mothers or abuse.

Any of the above can be the cause of their behavior, NOT the adoption.

Posted by: Jacqueline at April 17, 2008 4:25 PM
******************
And your source for this information would be where?

TR 4:16PM

How interesting. What I have seen and heard along that line is the torment family members go through knowing the killers are still alive and more concern is shown for their "rights" and humane treatment than was ever shown their murdered loved ones.
I remember when the founder of a Los Angeles gang was going to be executed. Of course the sob sisters and Hollywood hobnobs were out in force supporting his "rehabilitation". This is racism. Why, he's writing children's books against gangs. No you idiots, he's playing you for chumps so he can stay alive.
They interviewed one lone black woman who lost her only child because of this thug. She not only wanted him executed for the murder of her child, but also held him responsible for the deaths of hundreds of young black men and women. Of course there were no cries of racism over their deaths, its only racist to execute the one responsible for their deaths.
He was executed and I hope this poor woman has some closure. At least she won't have to make trips to prison to make sure he doesn't get out on parole, as the family members of Manson and Speck's victims had to.

Posted by: Mary at April 17, 2008 4:27 PM
**********************
A&E is running a program on gangs and I remember the case youre talking about - one of the 'original gangsters' for the Crips, I believe - Tookie something. He shot down 3 people in cold blood just to 'prove' he was tough. I personally think capital punishment was completely called for and agree - he was playing the media for chumps. I saw a 'home movie' with Richard Speck, talking about how great his life was in jail - he was some thugs girl friend, had taken illegal hormones to get 'breasts' and was talking about how great his sex life was - my skin literally crawled. I could only imagine the families of those murdered nurses seeing that film. He died from a heart attack - justice was finally served. I think SOME of the time life in prison is an adequate sentence - I think in HIS case he should have been executed.

TR 4:23PM

Very true. I have to wonder if the abusive parents are sociopaths. Was it the abuse or heredity? As you say TR we are still looking for answers.

Jacqueline 4:23PM

Please my friend, there's nothing to forgive you for. I took absolutely no offense. My only intention is to educate people and share my experience and research with them. I have been very blessed to have given some insight and help to parents who were at a loss over the behavior of their BPD children.

TexasRed,

"none of the people on death row are in my body either but if they tried I can pretty well guarantee Id make every effort possible to remove them AND see that they die"

Even if they were there because of the choice you made? Can I then choose to have sex with a man and in the middle of it change my mind and procede to murder the person who's "in my body?"

It should AT LEAST be the same with the fetus. If you change your mind you can remove the fetus from your body, but there's no excuse to murder it first. Yet we find completley "viable" babies being murdered first and then removed, or removed first and then murdered.

Funny...it doesn't appear that bodily integrity is really the issue here after all.

TR 4:33PM

Yes that was his name,Tookie. Real model citizen that one. I also remember that Richard Speck video. He was supposed to fry but his death sentence got commuted, just like the Manson bunch. Anyway, I heard the stress of their daughters' murders and going to parole hearings to keep Speck locked up put the parents in an early grave. If nothing else we can be thankful they never had to see that disgusting video.
I remember Doris Tate, the mother of Manson victim Sharon Tate, confronting her daughter's killers at parole hearings. She was at every parole hearing until she died. They would rot in prison while she still had a breath of air in her.
Why should any victims' survivors have to endure this?

TX, and what if you were raped? Do you condone the death penalty for rapists then?

Anyone bringing up rapists in regards to the death penalty should be laughed right out of this post.

Rapists and sexual offenders get less time than non-violent drug offenders.

Fix that.

Edyt: How do we fix that? I'd like to see us empty the jails of non-violent drug offenders so that we have more room for rapists. Legalizing pot would be a step in the right direction,imo.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2267:

Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68

The Bible condones the death penalty for 2 reasons, to deter others from committing heinous crimes, but moreso to rid society of the most evil among us.

This spotlights the sanctity of life: It is so precious, those taking innocent human life should be meted the ultimate punishment.

Jill, I have to disagree on the death penalty. The second statement is akin to saying: "My car was so precious to me! Since you totalled mine, I have a right to total yours." I think the Catholic Church has it right on this one.

(See my Post , 7:05 PM.) The last line of CCC 2267 - says this:
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68

Pansy,

Oh my gosh, I was just thinking about you the other day...how are you? How did you find your way to Jills? It's so good to see you!!!

Pansy,

I agree with you. It's really not so much about what the "criminal" deserves...as it is about who WE are...I just can't stomach the idea that we kill people when we can let them live. I have no sympathy for them, no bleeding heart stuff here, just sayin' it says more about us, than them.

Edyt 6:17PM

This is just an example of how our society trivializes sexual assault. That's the real problem.

Mary: Good point.

TX, and what if you were raped? Do you condone the death penalty for rapists then?

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2008 4:56 PM
************
And what if I was? What does that have to do with anything discussed here?

TexasRed,

"none of the people on death row are in my body either but if they tried I can pretty well guarantee Id make every effort possible to remove them AND see that they die"

Even if they were there because of the choice you made? Can I then choose to have sex with a man and in the middle of it change my mind and procede to murder the person who's "in my body?"

It should AT LEAST be the same with the fetus. If you change your mind you can remove the fetus from your body, but there's no excuse to murder it first. Yet we find completley "viable" babies being murdered first and then removed, or removed first and then murdered.

Funny...it doesn't appear that bodily integrity is really the issue here after all.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2008 4:48 PM
*****************
Nonny, agreeing to sex isnt agreeing to pregnancy, abortion isnt murder, and ranting about third trimester abortions just makes you look stupid.

agreeing to sex isnt agreeing to pregnancy, abortion isnt murder, and ranting about third trimester abortions just makes you look stupid.
Posted by Anonymous at April 18, 2008 12:38 AM

Agreeing to sex is agreeing to the possibility of pregnancy. Some abortion is murder as the Supreme Court ruled "last year" when they stopped you and the rest of your murderous, deceitful, abortion loving hordes from delivering babies to their chest, sliding a scissors up the spine to the bottom of the head. Jabbing the scissors into the baby's head and opening it wide and pulling it out to create a gaping hole that you can use to suck the babies brains out his skull. Ughhh who did you say looks stupid?

"Nonny, agreeing to sex isnt agreeing to pregnancy, abortion isnt murder, and ranting about third trimester abortions just makes you look stupid."

--------------------------------------

Sex 101: Having sex creates babies. I know, I know...it's hard to believe, isn't it?

Killing babies is murder, and when people stop doing late term abortions I'll stop ranting about them. Deal?

Hooves in Maw, 2:17PM

How interesting about the sisters you describe. No dearer soul ever walked this planet than my great aunt. She had one model son, a soldier in WW2, a family man. Her other was sex crazed (he tried assaulting my mother when they were children) drunken, foul mouthed, an aging biker, and serial womanizer. My mother would often say "how did anyone like my Aunt-- ever give birth to something like that?!

Sex 101: Having sex creates babies. I know, I know...it's hard to believe, isn't it?

Killing babies is murder, and when people stop doing late term abortions I'll stop ranting about them. Deal?

Posted by: Desley at April 18, 2008 8:04 AM
*****************************
Where did you get the absurd idea that anyone didnt know pregnancies typically results from being sexually active? But agreeing to sex is still not agreeing to pregnancy. And yes, killing babies IS murder. Abortion is NOT murder and therefore it obviously isnt killing babies. Ranting and obsessing about fewer than 600 abortions a year (thats according to the JAMA) about which you know nothing just makes your hysterical tirades look foolish. And pretending you do 'know all about them' would make you look even more foolish.

TR 4:23PM

Very true. I have to wonder if the abusive parents are sociopaths. Was it the abuse or heredity? As you say TR we are still looking for answers.

Posted by: Mary at April 17, 2008 4:34 PM
**************************
There are so very many variables. One of the main concerns I personally have is so much of information we really have ABOUT serial killers is FROM the serial killer themselves - and sociopaths are liars almost by definition, not to mention controlling and manipulative. In my opinion the only way to get any real 'answers' about serial killers is to have prolonged therapy with a highly qualified psychologist and you'd still be limited by WHAT the serial killer told the psychologist. And even at that, to what purpose? Would it even be feasible to look at 'at risk children (those who wet the bed, start fires and are bullies and torture animals) and try to intervene? Is it even possible to 'intervene' with a psychopath or a sociopath?

agreeing to sex isnt agreeing to pregnancy, abortion isnt murder, and ranting about third trimester abortions just makes you look stupid.
Posted by Anonymous at April 18, 2008 12:38 AM

Agreeing to sex is agreeing to the possibility of pregnancy. Some abortion is murder as the Supreme Court ruled "last year" when they stopped you and the rest of your murderous, deceitful, abortion loving hordes from delivering babies to their chest, sliding a scissors up the spine to the bottom of the head. Jabbing the scissors into the baby's head and opening it wide and pulling it out to create a gaping hole that you can use to suck the babies brains out his skull. Ughhh who did you say looks stupid?

Posted by: truthseeker at April 18, 2008 2:42 AM
************
You. And you just did it again.

TR 9:54am

Good point about the lying. These are people who know exactly what you want to hear, and as you say they are master manipulators. One must be highly skeptical of any of their tales of childhood woe. I think a more thorough and objective investigation of the family history is warranted, as well as interviews with family and associates.
My sister is a Narcissist, which is closely related to both BPD and sociopathy. She has spun some incredible tales of her childhood and has forever viewed herself a victim. The same with my BPD daughter. To hear her tell it she had the most horrific childhood imaginable. My BPD father manipulated people the same way, by playing on their sympathy. Whether these people really believe it, are playing on your sympathy, or telling you what they think you want to hear, who knows?
Like you, I am highly skeptical of any history these people give and don't view it as a truly valid source for making any kind of assessment.
Good question as to whether intervention of a sociopathic child will change anything. My opinion is that it will not and you are best being aware of exactly what you're up against and not entertain any illusions about the potential to change this child for the better. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

Some abortion is murder as the Supreme Court ruled "last year"

They didn't rule PBA was murder. They ruled it could be prohibited.
Lots of things are illegal but not murder.

TR 9:54am

Good point about the lying. These are people who know exactly what you want to hear, and as you say they are master manipulators. One must be highly skeptical of any of their tales of childhood woe. I think a more thorough and objective investigation of the family history is warranted, as well as interviews with family and associates.
My sister is a Narcissist, which is closely related to both BPD and sociopathy. She has spun some incredible tales of her childhood and has forever viewed herself a victim. The same with my BPD daughter. To hear her tell it she had the most horrific childhood imaginable. My BPD father manipulated people the same way, by playing on their sympathy. Whether these people really believe it, are playing on your sympathy, or telling you what they think you want to hear, who knows?
Like you, I am highly skeptical of any history these people give and don't view it as a truly valid source for making any kind of assessment.
Good question as to whether intervention of a sociopathic child will change anything. My opinion is that it will not and you are best being aware of exactly what you're up against and not entertain any illusions about the potential to change this child for the better. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

Posted by: Mary at April 18, 2008 10:46 AM
******************
I wont disagree with anything youve said. The issue of the psychology of crime is a very complicated matter. And we are only now beginning to get into it. I think there is a societal stigma on the idea that some people can be born with their 'wiring' just a little 'off' but I honestly believe that sometimes that is the case. And we dont know why. Look at Kemper - he was subjected to a life time of emotional abuse and wound up lashing out at college coeds. Or Gacy whose shame of being a homosexual and his repressed rage caused him to kill young boys and men rather than let them live with the knowledge that he was gay. But look at Bundy and Ridgeway (for example) - just WHAT about their lives was so horrible and so damaging that it would give rise to THEIR actions and all the murders they committed? It boggles the mind.

Where did you get the absurd idea that anyone didnt know pregnancies typically results from being sexually active? But agreeing to sex is still not agreeing to pregnancy. And yes, killing babies IS murder. Abortion is NOT murder and therefore it obviously isnt killing babies. Ranting and obsessing about fewer than 600 abortions a year (thats according to the JAMA) about which you know nothing just makes your hysterical tirades look foolish. And pretending you do 'know all about them' would make you look even more foolish.
---------------------------------------

Agreeing to sex is agreeing to the chance of becoming pregnant.

Mirriam-Webster online
BABY- 1 a (1): an extremely young child; especially : infant (2): an extremely young animal b: the youngest of a group

CHILD-1 : an unborn or recently born person
2 : a young person especially between infancy and youth
- with child : PREGNANT

So, a baby is an extremely young child, and a child can either be born or unborn.

Abortion us killing a baby, or if you'd prefer, a child. Sounds like murder to me.
And I suppose since the Jews weren't considered people and the law at the time didn't protect them, that wasn't murder either.

My friend, I'd rant and rave over one murder of one child. Especially if people were trying to justify it. One murder of a child is one too many.

Trying to make excuses for the murder of helpless babies isn't exactly the epitome of wisdom either. But you go ahead and continue to pride yourself on your "knowledge". You're so smart you've forgotten how to be compassionate towards your fellow human beings.

So, a baby is an extremely young child, and a child can either be born or unborn.

Abortion us killing a baby, or if you'd prefer, a child. Sounds like murder to me.
And I suppose since the Jews weren't considered people and the law at the time didn't protect them, that wasn't murder either.

My friend, I'd rant and rave over one murder of one child. Especially if people were trying to justify it. One murder of a child is one too many.

Trying to make excuses for the murder of helpless babies isn't exactly the epitome of wisdom either. But you go ahead and continue to pride yourself on your "knowledge". You're so smart you've forgotten how to be compassionate towards your fellow human beings.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2008 2:28 PM
**********************
Abortion isnt murder and mindless insensate nonviable tissue isnt a 'baby'. If a woman gives birth to nonviable tissue she has a miscarriage, not a baby. Murdering babies is against the law. Abortion isnt. Obviously abortion isnt murder and there is no 'baby' involved. And trying to compare the Nazi holocaust to a womans right to self determination and bodily autonomy makes you look stupid. Hitler was antichoice too, just like you. I find it hilarious that you try to talk about compassion for human beings when you couldnt care less about the thinking feeling woman who is dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. You know as much about 'compassion' as my dog knows about sex and he was neutered when he was 3 months old.

Agreeing to sex is agreeing to the possibility of pregnancy. Some abortion is murder as the Supreme Court ruled "last year" when they stopped you and the rest of your murderous, deceitful, abortion loving hordes from delivering babies to their chest, sliding a scissors up the spine to the bottom of the head. Jabbing the scissors into the baby's head and opening it wide and pulling it out to create a gaping hole that you can use to suck the babies brains out his skull. Ughhh who did you say looks stupid?

Posted by: truthseeker at April 18, 2008 2:42 AM

Yeah, but think about it this way. If I agree to have a party in my house, I agree to have some possibly out of control stuff go down. I know that's a risk, and I've put all the nice dishes away so they don't get broken, but hell, it could happen anyway. Am I obligated to let these reckless homewreckers stay at my party? NO WAY. I can totally kick them out because they lost privileges by abusing my place. Even if they didn't lose privileges, hey, I can end my party whenever I want, because it's my house. Pack up your s*** and leave!

I think rapists should be executed. Only the evilest people commit rape, and I don't think a rapist can every be rehabilitated. And child molesters. And people who maliciously harm animals. Three types of evil people who commit the most violent of attacks.

Some abortion is murder as the Supreme Court ruled "last year"
They didn't rule PBA was murder. They ruled it could be prohibited.
Lots of things are illegal but not murder.
Posted by: Hal at April 18, 2008 10:52 AM

Hal,
Read the opinion. They said it was too close to infanticide. That isunless you don't think infanticide is murder????

Posting again just for you Red:

Agreeing to sex is agreeing to the possibility of pregnancy. Some abortion is murder as the Supreme Court ruled "last year" when they stopped you and the rest of your murderous, deceitful, abortion loving hordes from delivering babies to their chest, sliding a scissors up the spine to the bottom of the head. Jabbing the scissors into the baby's head and opening it wide and pulling it out to create a gaping hole that you can use to suck the babies brains out his skull. Ughhh who did you say looks stupid?