A very happy mother's day to everyone on this site.

Congratulations to the Duggars!!

You can see their cute announcement video here:
http://health.discovery.com/beyond/?playerId=219475126&categoryId=219535198&lineupId=769921206&titleId=1545110647

Happy Mother's Day! God bless you all.

Motherhood is a gift from God.

Think about it. The ability to have a human being grow inside you, and then nourish and protect it for 18 years. Only God could created mothers.

It's truly amazing!

The Proverbs 31 quote of the day is appropo.

Happy Mothers Day to all moms! God bless you for all you do for us, for your sacrifice, your hard work, your love. May God make this day very special for you.

It's interesting how so many fundamentalist, anti-science Christians reap the benefits science has provided for them -- namely, fewer children die from disease, mothers survive childbirth, medicine and prenatal vitamins, ultrasound machines, etc.

They are benefiting from our tremendous communications advancements (it's called the media, to which many conservative groups seemingly oppose) which has allowed them more press and several documentaries than 99.9% of families in the world. Without our media communications and the invention of the Internet (another technological advancement made possible through science) they would be just another family.

Not to mention they're also benefiting from the separation of church and state! Since they have declared their house a "church" they are tax exempt!

Way to take advantage of all the benefits liberals, scientists and the media have afforded you, Duggars!

Bitter much, Edyt??

They should start their own sports team!

Did I sound bitter, Elizabeth? I was merely pointing out how much they have benefited off many of the advancements that were made possible through science and creative, liberal-minded thinking.

Does that mean they have to agree with EVERYTHING science does?

There is a difference between being creatively liberal and politically liberal. I wouldn't necessarily lump them all together like that.

Without liberal notions, science would have been squashed before we even reached the point of studying evolution. They don't have to agree with evolution, but to deny one scientific principle that has arguably been studied more than some of the fundamental principles of physics is willfully ignorant. Scientists spend all day asking, "What if I'm wrong?" and then running tests that prove they are indeed right. Fundamentalists spend all day saying "I know I am right" and then telling others they are wrong, while reaping the rewards that were created by those they would have originally opposed.

I don't care if you rejoice and revel in your rights, but don't discredit those who got them for you. And those people are liberal, creative, scientific people who often go against the grain to seek out understanding that may be different from what the masses believe.

I don't care if you rejoice and revel in your rights, but don't discredit those who got them for you.

Why do you feel it appropriate for you to tell people what to do Edyt? I really don't care if fundamentalists want to go off and debunk evolution. It doesn't bother me, because I believe something different and am content in my beliefs. I believe in evolution and I believe God is the creator of all life. Some people don't believe in God, some people don't believe in evolution.

Happy Mommy's Day and Happy Pentecost to all my brethren in the Lord.

Happy Mothers Day!!
What an awesome family!

I should have added the modifier:

I don't care if you rejoice and revel in your rights, but don't discredit those who got them for you while doing so.

Obviously, Elizabeth, I am stating my opinion and I am quite aware that the very people who do criticize science also benefit from it (it's practically impossible these days to not have some benefit from science). I just think it's a little hypocritical to slam scientists while reaping the benefits, that's all.

Do you not reap benefits as well, Edyt?

Carla,

Yes ma'am, but the difference is that I don't discredit scientists or science by saying "because this doesn't agree with my Bible it can't be true."

Many of the modern cures and medicines we have today are a direct result of scientists understanding evolutionary theory and applying it to man.

Why do you think they would test vaccines on rabbits and cows, if they did not understand that our bodies are quite similar, as are the viruses and diseases that affect them?

On the other hand, I gotta give these people a lot of credit for even attempting to have that many kids and raise them as fundamentalist Christians in the limelight of media attention.

I'll give it another 5-10 years before some of the kids start taking different paths, and then the media won't be very friendly anymore.

Well, some people who do believe in God would say that you are reaping the benefits of life because of Him and yet you discredit Him plenty.(Since these people believe God is the creator of all life..I do as well, but I believe evolution is real too) That to people would seem to be a bit hypocritical on your part.

Except that with science there's evidence based on years of study and experimentation, and with God there's a poorly composed and contradictory book filled with hate speech, pornography, and violence.

Hardly comparable.

Are you having a tough day, Edyt? I am not being snarky. Mothers Day is hard for me for many, many reasons.
I do wish the Duggars well. They seem genuinely happy and they work hard!! I will not be having 18 children but I admire their commitment to God and to each other and their desire to share their world with others who cannot comprehend their lifestyle.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, Carla, but I don't particularly care either way that it's Mother's Day. Yesterday was National Train Day. May 1st was Law Day and the National Day of Prayer. This Friday will be the National Defense Transportation Day. May 22nd is National Maritime Day.

To me, it's Sunday, and as such I plan to spend the day relaxing and writing and playing with my cats.

You just seemed a little cranked up about the Duggars. Like you have some kind of beef with them?
Maybe not. Have a relaxing day!

Except that with science there's evidence based on years of study and experimentation, and with God there's a poorly composed and contradictory book filled with hate speech, pornography, and violence.

Hardly comparable.

Well, that's your interpretation again Edyt. Certain people could interpret Darwin and Mendel in ways that could be construed as "hateful" (i.e. Hitler) That doesn't mean that's what they actually represent or even meant to say.

Edyt, I realize you won't concede to the fact that maybe your way isn't the only way to look at things..so we can end this here. But continuing on with your anti-religious rhetoric isn't really a constructive way to get people to look at things your way. In fact, they probably wouldn't even try.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited."

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922

No problem, Elizabeth.

People who are pro-abortion as a general rule HATE the Duggars. It's so typical. After all, they stand for everything they're against. Love and family and God.

Happy mother's day to everyone here!

Edyt, 2:23, so? Obama says many similar things, and I don't consider him a Christian.

What Bethany? You mean they don't support this woman's CHOICE to have and support all these kids in a LOVING environment? :gasp: I.am.SHOCKED!

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html

Quotes Establishing Hitler's Non-Christianity

Hitler may in public have claimed to be doing the will of God, but records of his private conversations show otherwise. Many of these were recorded by his secretary and published in a book called Hitler's Table Talk (Adolf Hitler, London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953). I have lifted the text of these from the soc.religion.christian newsgroup's Hitler FAQ.

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

21st October, 1941, midday

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... ....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)

14th December, 1941, midday

"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner

"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

What Bethany? You mean they don't support this woman's CHOICE to have and support all these kids in a LOVING environment? :gasp: I.am.SHOCKED!

It's amazing, isn't it? lol

It's amazing how quickly their claim that they support "choice" falls flat in the face of the Duggars and others like them, who do "choose" to give life to their children- all of them.

I know what you mean, Bethany.

18 kids is hard for ME to wrap my brain around..it makes me feel tired just thinking about what that would be like!

But if they can do that and still remain sane, more power to them!!

*On a side note..the baby bird eggs that are above our front door have HATCHED! There's 4 of them and they're sooo cute! Their momma is feeding them right now as I write this. They are just the sweeeeetest..I wish I could keep one. I don't think momma would like that too much!

Aww how sweet! what kind of birds are they, Elizabeth?

As for 18 kids being a lot to handle, I have been following the Duggars since they first came on TV and what amazes me is their amazing organization skills. I can only hope that one day I can achieve that. I think that the fact that many of her children are older helps.

When I first saw the Duggars, when they only had 14 kids, I thought, why would anyone choose to have so many children? This was back when I was still using birth control and still had the "contraceptive mindset". I realized my error one day, and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I realized what a blessing children ALWAYS are, not just in our own timing, and my desires and thoughts about children made a complete changeover. My husband and I both discussed it and decided never, ever to use birth control again.

I now would be happy if God decided to bless me with 18 children of my own. God will always provide a way for us to take care of them.
I trust that with all of my heart. I have seen His promises having been kept already for so many years. I trust He will continue to do so.

Elizabeth, btw, could you take pictures of the baby birds?

"I now would be happy if God decided to bless me with 18 children of my own."

Heck yeah, Bethany! Ditto to that!

When my parents got hitched, my dad initially wanted 12 kids, and my mom agreed.

6 years after said wedding I was born and my parents looked at each other and were like, "Nevermind...maybe 2 or 3 will be good enough."

I would be willing to agree with that sentiment.

Edyt,

Are scientists never religious people? The fact people have strong religious faith does not make them"anti-science" or technology. Where in religious teachings is it commanded that one must live like a caveman?

The Duggars do in fact conduct religious services in their home for themselves and other families and are not, as far as I know, members of another church.
Also, with all this "concern" about seperation of church and state, (which I have found to be highly selective), I never heard liberals howl about a collection I saw taken in church, on national TV, for the Rev. Jesse Jackson's presidential campaign or when Bill Clinton also campaigned in a church.

The Duggars get media attention? So do any number of other people such as the woman with half a body or the couple raising eight children 6 of them sextuplets. Let's not forget all the attention our media likes to shower on celebrities and their every utterances, even if they don't know what they talking about half the time.

Edyt:

Your posts are hilarious.

All good things come from God not liberals.

I can hardly contain my laughtter.

I have been taking pictures since the momma birdie first put up her nest, Bethany! Oh and the birdies are robins..the eggs were sooo purrty.

There's some muck on the window because of her nest so I haven't been able to get a super clear pic of the babies cause they're so little, but when they get bigger I hope I can get better pics. Oh and I don't want to be bugging the momma when she's trying to take care of her babes. I can only take pics when she is off getting food for them.

It is really cool cause this happened last year in the same spot on our front door. Birdies must love us or something.

People who are pro-abortion as a general rule HATE the Duggars. It's so typical. After all, they stand for everything they're against. Love and family and God.

Happy mother's day to everyone here!
Posted by: Bethany at May 11, 2008 2:24 PM

Hi Bethany. I can understand why you said "God," and maybe why you said "family," but who says pro-aborts are against "Love?"

I don't hate the Duggars at all, but I have no desire to change places with them.

LOL Bethany, you should read your own links sometimes. It's quite plain about the fact that Hitler only started hating Christians after they were a threat to his anti-Semitic mission. He is quite clear about his belief in a higher power (the Christian God) but he felt Christians had distorted their faith and purpose - which was, mainly, to eradicate the Jews responsible for killing Christ.

Second, I see you've appointed yourself the judge of who is a true Christian, from your 2:26 p.m. post. Wouldn't God be proud?

People who are pro-abortion as a general rule HATE the Duggars. It's so typical. After all, they stand for everything they're against. Love and family and God.

Hahahaha. Yes, that's exactly it. You are sooo smart!! Bethany you know all about why people dislike the Duggars. Have a cookie, smart girl.

/sarcasm

Oh, by the way, I never said Michelle and Jim Bob shouldn't have the choice to have as many kids as they want. That said, I think I'd be more impressed if they had adopted 18 kids, but you know, people love to take the easy way out these days!!

Elizabeth, I like Robins...would love to see your pictures! Robins seem to always have their nests where you can find them! Here are some pictures of a Robin that was growing in the nest in our apple tree last year. :)

http://images.quickblogcast.com/37967-35154/robinbaby.jpg

http://app.onlinequickblog.com/images/37967-35154/robinbaby4.jpg

http://images.quickblogcast.com/37967-35154/robinbaby10.jpg

Hi Bethany. I can understand why you said "God," and maybe why you said "family," but who says pro-aborts are against "Love?"
I don't hate the Duggars at all, but I have no desire to change places with them.

Hal, as many horrible and hateful things as I have heard abortion proponents say about the Duggars, simply based on the fact that they have chosen to have so many children, it is hard for me to conclude differently.. But I do think that there are exceptions to the rule, and you may very well be one of them.

I certainly don't think you should wish to trade places with them or anything like that. I am basically just responding to the comments Edyt made, which seem to be so typical of abortion proponents who claim to support choice but then get angry and hostile when people choose the other option besides abortion. Know what I mean?

LOL Bethany, you should read your own links sometimes. It's quite plain about the fact that Hitler only started hating Christians after they were a threat to his anti-Semitic mission. He is quite clear about his belief in a higher power (the Christian God) but he felt Christians had distorted their faith and purpose - which was, mainly, to eradicate the Jews responsible for killing Christ.

No, it's not clear at all, Edyt. What is clear to me is that Hitler used Christianity as a propaganda and political tool, not that he was a Christian, by any stretch of the imagination.

Second, I see you've appointed yourself the judge of who is a true Christian, from your 2:26 p.m. post. Wouldn't God be proud?

The Bible says we shall know them by their fruits, Edyt. I don't think I have done anything wrong by judging that his fruits were not Christian in nature.

Hahahaha. Yes, that's exactly it. You are sooo smart!! Bethany you know all about why people dislike the Duggars. Have a cookie, smart girl.

I really didn't have to assume anything. I gathered those opinions from the many things I've heard you all say about them over the years. What is your reason for disliking them so, edyt? Maybe you could clarify since you feel I am mistaken about why you dislike them so intensely.

Oh, by the way, I never said Michelle and Jim Bob shouldn't have the choice to have as many kids as they want. That said, I think I'd be more impressed if they had adopted 18 kids, but you know, people love to take the easy way out these days!!

Why is having children of yourself the 'easy way out? Why do you feel the need to make mean comments towards them? Have they ever done anything to you?

All they have done is make a "choice' you don't agree with, pro-abortion Edyt.

Oh, by the way, I never said Michelle and Jim Bob shouldn't have the choice to have as many kids as they want. That said, I think I'd be more impressed if they had adopted 18 kids, but you know, people love to take the easy way out these days!!

Haha, Edyt, you try being pregnant for 11 years and THEN say that's "taking the easy way out!"

18 kids whether they are your own biologically or not is in NO WAY taking the easy way out...so you really should just be quiet Edyt, since you CLEARLY have no idea what you're talking about.

HisMan:10:07:

Thank you for your lovely comment!

Uh, no, you obviously missed the point Bethany. I was obviously criticizing their fundamentalism and use of the "liberal" media, as well as highlighting how they benefit from separation from church and state, science, and the "liberal" media.

I said nothing at all about their choice to have many children children, except what a shame it will be when one of them goes off the path and the media jumps on it. Because ... one of them inevitably will, and the media inevitably will make a circus out of it.

Which, honestly, is more a criticism of putting your children on a platter for hungry outsiders to gawk at. I have the same criticism for celebrity parents who put their babies on display. Olsen Twins, anyone?

that many children* (poor copy and paste job)

I said nothing at all about their choice to have many children children

Edyt, why do you feel the need to lie, especially when anyone can go up and read your above posts which contradict this statement?

You have already made quite a few remarks which demeaned their choice to give birth, and their choice to express free thought.

Haha, Edyt, you try being pregnant for 11 years and THEN say that's "taking the easy way out!"
18 kids whether they are your own biologically or not is in NO WAY taking the easy way out...so you really should just be quiet Edyt, since you CLEARLY have no idea what you're talking about.

Elizabeth, I had a good laugh about that one too. Isn't it always people like Edyt who are telling us how horrible pregnancy is, and how we are awful people for making women be "forced" to endure such a "terrible" thing? Either pregnancy is a hard thing to endure, or it's "the easy way out". It can't be both.

Please, Bethany, if anyone could go up there and read my above posts, point out where I demeaned their choice to give birth.

Well, for starters: "taking the easy way out"

Try again. I do think it's easier for most women to get pregnant and bear children naturally than to adopt (perhaps not on the body, but considering all the other factors that go into adopting, it's considerably more costly and time-consuming). That said, it is easier to have an abortion than go through a pregnancy.

What does any of that have to do with the number of children the Duggars had?

Happy Mother's Day all.
And a Hapy Mother's day to the mother of the recreated world and the Queen of all mothers, the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Try again. I do think it's easier for most women to get pregnant and bear children naturally than to adopt (perhaps not on the body, but considering all the other factors that go into adopting, it's considerably more costly and time-consuming). That said, it is easier to have an abortion than go through a pregnancy.
What does any of that have to do with the number of children the Duggars had?

No, Edyt, your implication was that they are selfish for having so many of their own children, because they chose to populate the earth (which you feel is already overcrowded), instead of taking care of other children who are already born. I wasn't born yesterday. I've seen and heard your argument plenty.

However, here is your chance. Let's hear how supportive you are of the Duggars and their choice to have 18 or more children.

Let me hear your positive thoughts regarding this...let me know how supportive you are of their choice to populate the earth with all of their blessings. Don't disappoint me, Edyt. :)

I do think it's easier for most women to get pregnant and bear children naturally than to adopt

Okay, but what about after? Is the care of the children any different? You still have to take care of that child the same way you take care of an adopted child.

Edyt, I'm sorry, but the notion that adopting is "so much harder" than raising your own children is ridiculous. Raising children, ANY CHILDREN, is hard and in no way "taking the easy way out."

You really demean women's roles in pregnancy and child-rearing with that statement. But I am not surprised, as one who has no idea what it actually takes to raise ANY child, it is easy to spout off incorrectly about such things.

No, Edyt, your implication was that they are selfish for having so many of their own children, because they chose to populate the earth (which you feel is already overcrowded), instead of taking care of other children who are already born. I wasn't born yesterday. I've seen and heard your argument plenty.

I said nothing like that and you're trying to assert that I am, when any idiot could read what I wrote and make a different (correct) conclusion. You set up a strawman and I'm not backing down until you admit I didn't say anything you're implying. This is yet another one of your silly, stupid games.

Lol, so instead, Edyt, why don't you just say EXACTLY what it is that you mean..if you meant something sooooo different than what Bethany thinks you meant.

I said nothing like that and you're trying to assert that I am, when any idiot could read what I wrote and make a different (correct) conclusion. You set up a strawman and I'm not backing down until you admit I didn't say anything you're implying. This is yet another one of your silly, stupid games.

So you disagree then, Edyt, with the conclusions I came up with? Do you disagree with the idea that the earth is already crowded, and that we need to adopt the children who are already born before over-populating the earth with more children of our own? Do you agree or disagree that it is selfish to have so many children, instead of adopting?

Please answer honestly.

Okay, but what about after? Is the care of the children any different? You still have to take care of that child the same way you take care of an adopted child.

Exactly.

Edyt, I'm sorry, but the notion that adopting is "so much harder" than raising your own children is ridiculous. Raising children, ANY CHILDREN, is hard and in no way "taking the easy way out."

That's not what I said.

Having sex (for any woman with normal fertility) is an easier method of getting pregnant than applying for adoption. Hence why I am more impressed by people who go through adoption than just having sex.

You really demean women's roles in pregnancy and child-rearing with that statement. But I am not surprised, as one who has no idea what it actually takes to raise ANY child, it is easy to spout off incorrectly about such things.

No, I didn't. I understand pregnancy and childbirth can and will be difficult. Raising a child is difficult. Getting pregnant (having sex) is easier than adopting. And even when you adopt, there's a woman who is going through pregnancy and struggling to give up her child. It's a difficult scenario and I am much more impressed by those who go through adoption than I am those who go through either pregnancy or abortion.

In none of those statements do I demean a woman's choice to get pregnant, to have children, to have an abortion, or put their baby up for adoption.

This is what I said:

It's interesting how so many fundamentalist, anti-science Christians reap the benefits science has provided for them -- namely, fewer children die from disease, mothers survive childbirth, medicine and prenatal vitamins, ultrasound machines, etc.

They are benefiting from our tremendous communications advancements (it's called the media, to which many conservative groups seemingly oppose) which has allowed them more press and several documentaries than 99.9% of families in the world. Without our media communications and the invention of the Internet (another technological advancement made possible through science) they would be just another family.

Not to mention they're also benefiting from the separation of church and state! Since they have declared their house a "church" they are tax exempt!

Way to take advantage of all the benefits liberals, scientists and the media have afforded you, Duggars!

Please point out where I criticized their choice to have 18 children, since you assume I did so.

Oh, and here's the only other post where I said anything about the Duggars before Bethany jutted in so abruptly, apparently knowing all about everything I was thinking.

On the other hand, I gotta give these people a lot of credit for even attempting to have that many kids and raise them as fundamentalist Christians in the limelight of media attention.

I'll give it another 5-10 years before some of the kids start taking different paths, and then the media won't be very friendly anymore.

Again, I challenge you to find the statements criticizing the size of their family.

Edyt, that is a nice way to avoid answering the questions posed to you, I suppose.

Maybe you could think about it some, then come back later with an answer to my direct questions about what you really did mean by what you said?

Just to help, since I never claimed that she directly stated much directly, but rather implied many things with her statements.

Here is the definition of implied:

indicated by necessary connotation though not expressed directly

To express an intended meaning through suggestions or inferences.

Something apparent from the circumstances, rather than from direct action or communication.

A nice way to avoid those questions? It's not about avoiding the questions, it's about making you accountable. You want me to answer your questions - fine. I don't have a problem with that.

But you're trying to set me up for an attack and I won't do it, particularly because you failed on your earlier attack.

Here's a statement you can screw around with: I support a woman's decision to have or not have children.

Edyt, how am I setting you up for attack if you in reality do disagree with the implications that I inferred from your posts?

Edyt,

You definitely DID say that people are "taking the easy way out" these days by having their own, BIOLOGICAL children.

If that isn't demeaning people who choose to have their own children, I don't know what is. Maybe you should think about how you word things next time.

Oh, I get it. You think I implied people shouldn't have 18 kids when I said it's ridiculous that fundamentalists take advantage of science and then bash it? You think I implied people shouldn't have 18 kids when I said the media is going to take advantage of them, like it has done for every other child in the limelight? You think I implied people are ruining the environment when I said they were taking advantage of separation of church and state by claiming their house as a church?

Have another cookie.

No, Edyt, that is not where I inferred the above from. That is where I inferred that you do not believe they have the right to freedom of thought and expression.

Elizabeth, thank you, I will do that. I was merely mocking the pro-life statement that women are "taking the easy way out" by having an abortion. Don't like that phrase so much anymore, huh?

I was merely mocking the pro-life statement that women are "taking the easy way out" by having an abortion.

Of course you were.

Mmhmm...sure you were Edyt.

I've never said it was the "easy way out" to have an abortion. Next time, maybe stick to things that ACTUALLY get said in the conversation okay? Then I might actually believe that's what you meant by your statements.

Oh I see, so you didn't read this post:

I should have added the modifier:

I don't care if you rejoice and revel in your rights, but don't discredit those who got them for you while doing so.

Obviously, Elizabeth, I am stating my opinion and I am quite aware that the very people who do criticize science also benefit from it (it's practically impossible these days to not have some benefit from science). I just think it's a little hypocritical to slam scientists while reaping the benefits, that's all.

Where did I say they shouldn't have the right to freedom of thought and expression? People who want to play dumb about where stuff came from can play dumb all they want.

Beeethany, I'm still waiting for you to prove I said or implied those statements! I have another cookie waiting. :)

I can't prove an implication, Edyt, however, you can answer my questions and make sure that we don't make any false assumptions.

Bethany 4:08PM

You're certainly correct about that. We can in no way assume Hitler did an about face on his "Christian" beliefs because some Christians turned against him. He was influenced by the occult as well. Hitler was first and foremost a brilliant and masterful politician. That he would state something publicly and something completely different privately is hardly surprising. He knew what people wanted to hear and if his largely Christian countrymen wanted to hear him expounding on his so called Christian beliefs, he'd do it. Ever hear of British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain who was convinced Hitler wanted peace and thought he(Chamberlain) had averted war? Hitler knew and told Chamberlain what he wanted to hear, as a result we had WW2 in Europe. This was hardly a man who's public pronouncements could be believed.

People who are pro-abortion as a general rule HATE the Duggars. It's so typical. After all, they stand for everything they're against. Love and family and God.

I am basically just responding to the comments Edyt made, which seem to be so typical of abortion proponents who claim to support choice but then get angry and hostile when people choose the other option besides abortion.

your implication was that they are selfish for having so many of their own children, because they chose to populate the earth (which you feel is already overcrowded)

I'm just waiting for you to admit your assumptions were wrong and based on evidence that did not exist. Then we'll move on and I'd be delighted to answer your questions. :)

So far, your silence has proven to me that my assumptions were not wrong. I don't think you would ever answer my questions, Edyt, because if you did, you'd have to admit I was right.

Anyway, I have to run. It's been nice talking to you all.

Oh, but I promise I would. I think you'd be surprised. Hehe.

But if you don't want to admit you were wrong and accused me of saying things I did not say... well... then you'll never know the answers. :) (Didn't I tell you I was tired of you twisting words?)

Your loss.

Oh before I go, Mary that was an excellent post at 5:05. I was watching about Hitler and the occult on the History channel just recently.

Holy CRAP that's a lot of kids. It's crazy how she's been pregnant for about a quarter of her life. O_O I'd never do something like that.

Well, if she wants it, more power to her. The kids look happy and well-loved, anyway.

Happy Mother's Day to all!

Bethany,

Thank you.

Stephanie,

How true. They are taking full responsibility for the care of their children and asking no one for anything. More power to them.

Just out of curiosity, what does the father/mother do for a living? Taking care of 17 (soon to be 18) kids must be hecka expensive...

They have no debt, which is huge!! :) I thought the father was into real estate?

And a happy Mother's Day to you, too, Jill. Isn't it beautiful to live in a pro-choice country that allows women like Michelle to have as many children as they wish?

I read this on "Thoughts of a Regular Guy"...

There is another angle that the rest of us will end up having to foot the bill. I don't see how. Again, these people aren't asking for any help from anyone. They can afford this. Does he get a tax break for all those kids? Yes, he does. But he's also self employed, so does anyone really believe he would be paying out loads to begin with? He's also paying property and school taxes on a 7000 square foot house, yet the kids are home schooled. I don't hear any complaints about that. I also don't hear any complaints that the odds of Jim Bob and Michelle having a child die for their country are eight times that of the average family. Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar will introduce 16 (at least) contributors to the social security system, which is just what that stupid ponzi scheme needs.

http://regularthoughts.blogspot.com/2005/10/more-on-duggar-family_22.html

what a beautiful family, I like how all the children chip in to help with the chores.

Happy Mothers Day to all the Moms....

Reality,

Women were having several children long long before this country was "pro-choice". One of my former co-workers had 10, her last one 3 years before Roe.

Tx for that link MK, interesting...

I am basically just responding to the comments Edyt made, which seem to be so typical of abortion proponents who claim to support choice but then get angry and hostile when people choose the other option besides abortion. Know what I mean?
Posted by: Bethany at May 11, 2008 4:00 PM

I think people might prefer them to choose birth control. I doubt any one is angry they didn't choose abortion. As for me, I'm happy if they're happy.

happy mother's day I hope tat one day that I too can have a quiverfull (14 children). It's funny how femeinists preach "my body, my choice" but when we women decided to do just that (usually against feminists teachings) we're called everything from baby machines to "vagina, it's not a clown car."

Pro-aborts are so anti-child. I'm not surprised.

Oh and to whoever said that the Duggars are anti-science yet benefit from because liberal scientists "discovered" all the useful things we have today let me just say people didn't "invent" the things we have today they "discovered" How. To. Make. Them. They did not invent it. God new for centuries who to make fire, electricity and various medical advances. He just let us in on it.

Hap a happy Mother's Day Everyone!

There's quite a bit more from the blog you linked to MK:
"The number of pups these people want to squeeze out should be their business alone if they can pay the bill. The economic effects on the rest of us merit a thank -you card from society, not derision. Large families are ... tremendously beneficial for the economy. These people have 4 washers and 8 dryers. They built their own home. They spend $1500 a month feeding these children. Does anyone without children realize how much money circulates in the economy when just one child arrives?"

I guess I have mixed feelings about having such a very large family. Mostly it has to do with how the children are cared for. My experience with very very large families such as this one is that usually the youngest children end up being raised by the older children and in fact receive very little time with the parents. This would be the only issue for me.

Checking in from the hotel I'm staying at....

I remember a post about the Duggars not long after #14 or #15 on a blog.....rather nasty posts from people asking if the family had ever heard of birth control, why they would want that many children, etc, and there were many words that were profanity.

Its so amazing that this family is debt free! They aren't on welfare or anything.

If the girls (and their brothers of course) have as many children as mom, they'd have to rent a stadium for a family reunion. *big grin*

This family is what Open to Life truly means.

And I for one hope they have another girl. Gotta catch up with the 10 boys!

TravelingLizNebraska:
I wonder if they have alot of things donated to them.
I am also curious as to how they afford violin and piano lessons for EACH of their children?!!! That's certainly alot of violins to purchase. It costs me thousands of dollars per year for lessons on these 2 instruments for just ONE of my children. I can't imagine what it would cost the Duggars.

Edyt:
It's interesting how so many fundamentalist, anti-science Christians reap the benefits science has provided for them

All people derive benefit from all kinds of things they disagree with. But OTOH, I missed where the "anti-science" attribution was valid, here.

Heck, I think it's interesting when people who look down their noses at others are interested by what these primitives think. It's kind of like watching Jane Goodall at work.

Good grief.

rasqual: agreed.

Edyt, tomorrow let's argue all the benefits that atheists like yourself have derived from non-atheistic inventions since the beginning of time. Oh, never mind, that would take thousands of years of history to go through.

Was this all about mocking those (Fundamentalists, in particular) who don't believe in creationism, or what? I failed to see your point from the start.

mk, You might want to consider a ban on sarcasm. It's getting so I can't tell what is sarcasm, and what is plain rude.

Here's a simple example. Let's take the flu, a known viral infection. Nearly every year, people are encouraged to get the flu shot, even if they've already had one.

Why?

Well, because our understanding of evolution has led to advancements in medicine in that we can track how viruses and bacteria evolve and attempt to eradicate them before they kill people.

A few centuries ago, before we understood the process of evolution, people would often die. Children, mothers, people of all ages. Our lives were shorter and many didn't make it to adulthood. Thus, families were encouraged to produce large families because they knew there was a likely possibility that several of their kids wouldn't live to carry on the family name, or the family farm, or business.

Because we have understanding of evolution, we have realized that using antibiotics to treat viruses will only make the virus mutate and become stronger. We understand that bacteria may be resistant to certain antibiotics and therefore a cocktail of such antibiotics may prevent the disease.

Now what does this have to do with large families?

Simple. Because of medical advancements that have been made possible through our understanding of evolution -- families like the Duggars can flourish with each and every child living to adulthood!

Why does the Duggar family upset me?

Because their fundamentalist principles deny evolution and while doing so deny the very study that led to the medical knowledge we have today that made it possible for all of them to live and grow up.

In essence, it is a slap in the face to the scientists and doctors who worked and studied and spent hours in their fields discovering solutions to common diseases that would have killed off most of those children had they lived a few centuries earlier.

Edyt: For all you know, the Duggars may be singing the praises of all those wonderful scientists and doctors who have cared for them and their babies. It's ridiculous to get upset because of them.

Edyt, all the evolution in the world and you'll still die one day but.... you can have eternal life by accepting Jesus Christ as your saviour. Lets see....If I could choose between a flu vaccine or eternal life....I'd choose eternal life.
:)) :)) :))

Edyt: For all you know, the Duggars may be singing the praises of all those wonderful scientists and doctors who have cared for them and their babies. It's ridiculous to get upset because of them.

oh but don't you know, Janet? It's okay for Edyt to make assumptions about what other people believe, even if she's never heard them speak before, but it's not okay for anyone else to make assumptions about what she believes based on what she says openly. lol

I think people might prefer them to choose birth control. I doubt any one is angry they didn't choose abortion.

Okay, Hal, but why is it anyone's business whether they take birth control or not? Why aren't they happy that these people are exercising their choice to give birth to as many children as they desire to have?

Edyt:

Now what does this have to do with large families?

Simple. Because of medical advancements that have been made possible through our understanding of evolution -- families like the Duggars can flourish with each and every child living to adulthood!

So what? What's wrong with this? Thank God most of our children survive to adulthood, especially since we no longer have 9 or 10 children per family. My grandmother had her first FOUR children die. Would you like to experience this?

Why does the Duggar family upset me?

Because their fundamentalist principles deny evolution and while doing so deny the very study that led to the medical knowledge we have today that made it possible for all of them to live and grow up.

In essence, it is a slap in the face to the scientists and doctors who worked and studied and spent hours in their fields discovering solutions to common diseases that would have killed off most of those children had they lived a few centuries earlier.

Posted by: Edyt at May 12, 2008 12:23 AM

This doesn't even make sense. You are angry with them because they are having lots of children and you think because children no longer die by the thousands in childhood that there's no reason to have a large family. Well, think again. Maybe they love children and love each other alot. Maybe they feel "called" to be open to many children. Their large family is proof of just how wonderful advances in science can improve people's lives - they get to enjoy ALL their children and watch them grow up. By all accounts, all these children are healthy - another huge blessing. Not every large family is so lucky you know.

I think what really bothers you Edyt is that this situation is so counter-cultural and is a reminder to proabort supports of what they are striving so hard to rid women of --- being mothers and being focused on family.

Patricia, amen!

gotta go to work - have a nice day Bethany!

You too, Patricia! :)

Edyt, tomorrow let's argue all the benefits that atheists like yourself have derived from non-atheistic inventions since the beginning of time. Oh, never mind, that would take thousands of years of history to go through.

Exactly, Janet. Edyt has herself benefited from the work of many, many Christian scientists, and therefore, using her logic, is "slapping all of those scientists in the face" by benefiting from their advancements in science, since she opposes Christianity. *big roll of the eyes to that one*

Take Isaac Newton, for instance. I doubt that Edyt has not benefited from the results of his hard work and research that he dedicated his entire life to, but does Edyt have to be a Christian and agree with his strong belief in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, in order to appreciate the advancements in Science by Isaac Newton? I don't think she does, but according to her logic, that is how it should be.

And isn't it amazing that a person like Isaac Newton was even capable of being such a great physicist and mathematician? According to Edyt's logic, Newton should have rejected Science completely and been opposed to it, simply because he was a Christian!

Bethany,

I'm still trying to figure out where,when and how it was determined the Duggars are anti-science. Because they don't believe in evolution? Did they state this somewhere? Scientists disagree among themselves about any number of things, evolution and global warming included. That's hardly "anti-science".
Does Edyt blindly accept everything scientists tell her? Does she ever look at opposing viewpoints? If her answer is "yes" to the first question and "no" to the second, then I guess no one can accuse her of being "anti-science".

I understand Einstein, who was Jewish, also believed in God.

Patricia, 5:41am

What is laughable is the notion that large families result from advances in science. Like your grandmother my greatgrandmother had nine children and lost 4, three in one week. She lost a 5th child in early adulthood. She was lucky, she actually had children survive at all!
They and countless millions of other women around the world had large families with no help from science or technology.
People had, and in many poor areas of the world, continue to have, large families in the hopes that one or more will survive to adulthood.
If anything, advances in science have enabled people to have smaller families! We do not need to have 10 children just to be certain 1 or 2 will survive to adulthood.

Mary, 6:42, 6:49, well said! I'm so glad you're still here! (I know you took a break for a while) :)

I read on the Duggars website that they lost a baby in miscarriage early on and had a feeling it was due to the birth control they had been taking. They made a vow to each other and to God that they would welcome each and every child that He would bless them with. :)

In honor of Edyt I will shout "Thank you Thomas Edison!!" every time I flip a light switch today!

Carla, it was actually their testimony that you just mentioned, which brought to my attention that there was something amiss with the BC pill.

I started researching it, to see why in the world they would have been afraid it caused them a miscarriage- that was totally news to me. What I found turned my world around!

Thank you Bethany. Sometimes I just don't post or feel like getting into any discussions, but I always return. :)

Patricia,

I should also mention we have a large Amish community near us. They live very traditionally, minus technology, and have large thriving families. They come to the hospital only for high risk births, and even then the one case I saw the couple was very wary of any "technology" such as a monitor, blood pressure cuff, and IV. We did some negotiating and the husband accepted these, but they were to be removed immediately after the babies were born and his wife was out of any danger. She had her 10th and 11th babies and did just fine.
We also discontinued all "technology" as soon as we could safely do so.

Here are some "enlightening" thoughts from well-read feminists and liberal blogs, so-called "pro-choicers", who don't hesitate to harshly critize and impy the Duggars' choices on family planning are inferior (the number and spacing of their children, strictly speaking). So much for reproductive "choice"!

Pandagon: Family values means setting the value of a mother at two nickels and a piece of lint
May 9, 2007
Amanda Marcotte posted an image of the Duggar family with the caption, "Vagina: It's Not a Clown Car" and further critizes the family's reproductive decisions in her post.

Birth Pangs: Two Baseball Teams!
May 9th 2008
Fern Hill writes, "Apparently, there’s room for one more in the clown car [word marked out] Duggar family."

Unrepentant Old Hippie: going for an even 20
May 10, 2008
"The assembly line at the world-renowned Duggar Baby Factory is going full tilt!"

Patricia,

"I wonder if they have alot of things donated to them."

I'm just randomly throwing things out there...

I remember one episode where they explained their thriftiness. Garage sales, auctions, hand-me-downs. And if people donate to them, they are humble enough to accept and be grateful.

As for affording lessons, I don't know if that was ever explained, but I'm guessing they probably exchange services for the lessons, and probably for other things, too.

I had a similar experience with BC, Bethany. Was on the pill for 5 years, went off, got pregnant and miscarried. Never was on it again.

I suppose when Amanda Marcotte is old, gray and alone in her nursing home facility, Mrs. Duggar will be surrounded by her children, grandchildren, adn great-grandchildren with too much love and support imaginable.

Considering one million plus are terminated annually, birthing 17 over 20 years is hardly a drop in the bucket.

Rachael,
I hope and pray the Duggars never have to read such horrid things being said about them!! Disgusting!

"I hope and pray the Duggars never have to read such horrid things being said about them!! Disgusting!"

Carla, I'm sure they not only read such things online, but also receive a lot of hate mail and email. They probably get a lot of rude comments while they're out in public as well. Fortunately, they don't have the mindset of the world, and I doubt these comments get to them. They know where true happiness is.

Bobby,
True enough. :)
So many things are beyond my comprehension. Sigh.

I doubt these comments get to them.

Bobby, I hope so, and I don't see the point of mean-spirited things aimed at the Duggars, from a Pro-Choice perspective.

Looks to me like they have a good and caring attitude about raising their kids, and it's not like somebody with one kid or two would automatically be a better parent.

I'd be interested to hear what the kids have to say about their lives growing up, later on.

My family had the "J" thing going on, for the first four nieces and nephews: Jordan, Jessica, Jacob, Jennica.

Doug,

If you go to their website (link in jills post) it tells what each of the kids wants to be when they grow up...answers range from dad to missionary, firman to lawyer...I'd say they are doing something right!

One of my wanted to be a professional surfer, one wanted to ride freight trains and another thinks professional frisbee is an actual profession...I'd like some of what the Duggars have...lol.

Good Heavens...the world has gone nuts! And I thought I was having a bad week....

Quake kills 7,000 in China
Please pray for trapped students

Twister havoc: 'I could see cars floating'
deadliest tornadoes in decade

Fires in Florida close interstate

A man was being tailgated by a stressed out woman on a busy
boulevard.
> > > Suddenly, the light turned yellow, just in front of him. He did
the
> > > right
> > > thing, stopping at the crosswalk, even though he could have
beaten
> > > the red
> > > light by accelerating through the intersection.
> > >
> > > The tailgating woman was furious and honked her horn, screaming
in
> > > frustration as she missed her chance to get through the
intersection,
> > > dropping her cell phone and makeup.
> > >
> > > As she was still in mid-rant, she heard a tap on her window and
> > > looked up
> > > into the face of a very serious police officer. The officer
ordered
> > > her to
> > > exit her car with her hands up. He took her to the police station

> > > where she
> > > was s earched, finger printed, photographed, and placed in a
> > > holding cell.
> > > After a couple of hours, a policeman approached the cell and
opened
> > > the door.
> > > She was escorted back to the booking desk where the arresting
> > > officer was
> > > waiting with her personal effects.
> > >
> > > He said, "I'm very sorry for this mistake. You see, I pulled up
> > > behind your
> > > car while you were blowing your horn, flipping off the guy in
front
> > > of you,
> > > and cussing a blue streak at him. I noticed the 'What Would Jesus

> > > Do' bumper
> > > sticker, the 'Choose Life' License plate holder, the 'Follow Me
to
> > > Sunday-School' bumper Sticker, And the chrome-plated Christian
fish
> > > emblem on
> > > the trunk, Naturally...I assumed you had stolen the car."

Good one, MK!!
The birthpangs of this Earth are coming closer and closer together aren't they? Maranatha!

mk:9:46:

That made my day! Lol. Where did you find it?

(We all have our days, don't we? Hmmm...)

Did you have a nice Mothers' Day?

People who are pro-abortion as a general rule HATE the Duggars. It's so typical. After all, they stand for everything they're against. Love and family and God.

Happy mother's day to everyone here!

Posted by: Bethany at May 11, 2008 2:24 PM
*************
More lies from you, Bethany.

It is really cool cause this happened last year in the same spot on our front door. Birdies must love us or something.

Posted by: Elizabeth at May 11, 2008 3:26 PM
************
If one falls out - and that happens fairly often when they start getting bigger - just tuck him back in the nest. The 'the mother will smell human on him' is just a myth. She may be skittish about seeing you at the nest but she wont have a problem with the baby. If it were a jay or mocking bird Id say the same thing and warm you that mama and papa may dive bomb you - dont know a thing about robins though - dont think they nest here.

I await a detailed explanation as to how understanding evolutionary theory and applying it to man has specifically brought about medical cures.

One good case example would be sufficient.

Recall that the bone of contention separating the creationists and those who deny creation is a belief that the theory of Macroevolution is fact, and that it was both initiated and continues as a result of random events.

Wonder if Edyt understands this, or is just spewing.

The couple has a right to live their lives the way they think is best. My only concern is that the parents are NOT the ones raising the children. The children are raising each other for the most part. The parents dont have time enough to give anyone much individual attention spread out among 18 children. And the baby isnt but 9 months old. They'll still be a baby when the family has another baby. My mother was one of 9. She was raised by her older sisters, not her mother. The same was true about everyone around her - everyone had big families and the kids raised the other kids which was not always a good thing. None of those 9 kids wanted big families. There are 22 first cousins. My husband was one of 7 - there are 9 grandchildren. None of them wanted big families either. No one I know personally who came from a big family wants a big family.

Doug said:9:29: Looks to me like they have a good and caring attitude about raising their kids, and it's not like somebody with one kid or two would automatically be a better parent.

I'd be interested to hear what the kids have to say about their lives growing up, later on.

mk said:9:34: Doug, If you go to their website (link in jills post) it tells what each of the kids wants to be when they grow up...answers range from dad to missionary, firman to lawyer...I'd say they are doing something right!

As another commenter mentioned that it's great to see how the family works together to make things happen at home. I love the word they use for chores - jurisdictions. It sound important! I came from a relatively large family and, in my opinion, the sense of "belonging" to a group larger than oneself is one that is hard to match. This atmosphere is a good training ground for the real world where you have to be able to co-exist with all types of people, in good and difficult circumstances, in the workplace, in your neighborhood, at school, etc...

Doug, my guess is that the majority of the Duggars' children will grow up and have larger than average families, but who knows..? Michelle and her husband are quite an example to the rest of us and what an inspiration! God bless you, Duggars! Keep smilin'!

Happy belated Mothers Day TR!
I am thinking if I had 4 teenagers to "help me out" I would still be having children. :) I know families that have 11 and 12 children and the older ones are not raising the youngers. They are too busy with school etc. But they do help with cooking, cleaning, playing, and other chores. They are not allowed to discipline. I am looking forward to watching their newest shows.

mk:

No kidding about the disasters around the world. Maybe the next novena (prayers) could be offered for these people as well. There are so many people suffering in ways we can hardly imagine. God bless those in Myanmar and China especially.

Happy belated Mothers Day TR!
I am thinking if I had 4 teenagers to "help me out" I would still be having children. :) I know families that have 11 and 12 children and the older ones are not raising the youngers. They are too busy with school etc. But they do help with cooking, cleaning, playing, and other chores. They are not allowed to discipline. I am looking forward to watching their newest shows.

Posted by: Carla at May 12, 2008 10:45 AM
******************
Remember, you have to raise them to the point where they ARE teenagers ... and the Duggars are home schooled which would make quite a bit of difference. If one of them says 'I didnt get finished with the reading assignment because I was helping to clean up the leak in the basement' then the 'teacher' is going to understand. But the kids are still the ones taking care of the other kids to a large extent - its inevitable. If Id had someone to help out I would have had a third child but would have stopped at that. C sections are tough on your body, and more so 30+ years ago. I had a nice mothers day - hope you did too - and my dil graduated last night - Im very proud of her!

Carla, I'm looking forward to the new shows too. Boy, I wish I had a few extra hands around the house. It's a lot more fun getting the work done when you have someone to share it with!

I did have a great Mothers Day, TR. Thank you. I guess I am in awe of larger families!! :) There is something about all of those children working and playing and loving that gets to me.

I think the Duggars can probably thank science that all their kids are alive and from the look of the photo, healthy. My grandparents married in 1906. My grandmothers first pregnancy resulted in a stillbirth - only found out a short while ago that I was born on that date about 40 years later. But her other 9 children all survived to adulthood and parenthood. I remember my mother and her sisters talking about the cousins and family friends they lost growing up.

I did have a great Mothers Day, TR. Thank you. I guess I am in awe of larger families!! :) There is something about all of those children working and playing and loving that gets to me.

Posted by: Carla at May 12, 2008 11:00 AM
*****************
I saw it with my ex husband and with my mother - big families arent always a good thing. There were 3 sisters mother was in constant conflict with - they just didnt get along. In a big family when there is conflict there is an unfortunate tendency to 'take sides'. I wound up seeing it more from an objective standpoint because just about everyone else grew up very close together and we lived about 300 miles away and only saw everyone on vacation. With the exception of 2 sisters, everyone else lived within about 50 miles of my grandparents so 19 of the cousins all grew up in each others back pockets so to speak. I only found out about 10 years ago that one of my cousins had been raped by another cousin and she didnt dare tell anyone because of the damage it would do to the family. When youve got that many people youre related to, it can get really complicated.

If one falls out - and that happens fairly often when they start getting bigger - just tuck him back in the nest. The 'the mother will smell human on him' is just a myth. She may be skittish about seeing you at the nest but she wont have a problem with the baby.

Iva, that sounds right to me. Birds are able to smell, but many don't pay much attention to it. One notable exception is the turkey vulture.

Recall that the bone of contention separating the creationists and those who deny creation is a belief that the theory of Macroevolution is fact, and that it was both initiated and continues as a result of random events.

There are those who believe in Creation and those who don't, regardless of evolution.

Evolution has been observed plenty via fossil evidence, etc., but that does not automatically rule out Creation. The beginning of life on earth would not have to be random.

No one I know personally who came from a big family wants a big family.
Posted by: TexasRed at May 12, 2008 10:36 AM

Red, I personally know lots of people who came from bg families and want big families. :))

Iva, that sounds right to me. Birds are able to smell, but many don't pay much attention to it. One notable exception is the turkey vulture.

Posted by: Doug at May 12, 2008 11:14 AM
*********************
Elder son found a Blue Jay fledgling, couldnt see a nest anywhere close and couldnt leave it on the ground because of fire ants. The wife of the fellow he worked for 'reclaimed' opossums so we took it to her because she knew lots of other people who worked with wildlife. I met the fellow who took the jay and he was the one who said the best option is to get a fledgling back in the nest if you can, that 'smelling like a human' wont matter. As for buzzards - if they can tolerate smelling road killed skunk and still eating it, then I cant imagine the smell of 'people' would phase them!

No one I know personally who came from a big family wants a big family.
Posted by: TexasRed at May 12, 2008 10:36 AM

Red, I personally know lots of people who came from bg families and want big families. :))

Posted by: truthseeker at May 12, 2008 11:21 AM
***************
As I said, those are the people I know.
And there is a big difference in being 18 and 'wanting a whole house full of babies' and being 25 with three - different perspective. I wanted 5 - would have liked 3 - stopped at 2.

I have an older sister and a younger sister. I grew up in a family totally void of love, affection, attention or nurturing of any kind. I admire the Duggars. How about we all watch the showw? :)

There are those who believe in Creation and those who don't, regardless of evolution.

Evolution has been observed plenty via fossil evidence, etc., but that does not automatically rule out Creation. The beginning of life on earth would not have to be random.

Posted by: Doug at May 12, 2008 11:18 AM
************************
Ive heard plenty of christians say they view evolution as the mark of Gods hand. Not all christians take the bible as the literal truth - Ive read rabbis say that much of the old testament is written in parables.

I have an older sister and a younger sister. I grew up in a family totally void of love, affection, attention or nurturing of any kind. I admire the Duggars. How about we all watch the showw? :)

Posted by: Carla at May 12, 2008 11:29 AM
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If your parents had 12 kids they would have all grown up in the same atmosphere. Lots of siblings isnt a guarantee you'll like them or love them or feel close to them. Mother was really close to two of her sisters, didnt get along well with 3 of them, and the other 2 were somewhere in between. They ALL were crazy about their brother though - he was wild as he could be, worked on oil rigs after he got out of the Navy for WWII - so good looking it wasnt even right and my papa thought he hung the moon. Younger son is named after him and my papa :)

*twitch twitch*

That's just too many bleedin' kids. I'm glad they are happy and all, but man. It freaks me out. Kinda like my 19 year old friend who is married and just had a baby. It's just WEIRD.

Just sayin. We can find examples of crappy parents and good parents no matter how many children they have.
Erin, I can hardly imagine it myself. :)

Just sayin. We can find examples of crappy parents and good parents no matter how many children they have.
Erin, I can hardly imagine it myself. :)

Posted by: Carla at May 12, 2008 11:40 AM
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Yup - looks like the Duggars are really making an effort to be good parents. Time will tell what their children decide to do.

I think that as far as wanting a family of a certain size, it often relates to their own experience, i.e. if one's childhood is happy with many siblings, then IMO obviously they wouldn't rule it out or would want it for their kids.

Those who think it'd have been better to have less kids, or those who were only children, for example, and who wanted more siblings, may well want to go the "other way," and I've seen that many times, in other areas as well, i.e. "Dad was a big boozer so I'm gonna stay away from it."

It's often a "generation-skipping" thing where people tend away from their parents but not necessarily their grandparents.

TR,

One year when we had birdies in the same spot, one of the birdies got out of the nest and fell in our neighbor's window-well thingie..so my brother had to get down in there and get him/her. The mommy bird was dive-bombing my brother in the window-well the whole time! It was probably the most amusing thing I had seen in a looong time! But the mommy was glad we got her baby out, that's for sure.

It's often a "generation-skipping" thing where people tend away from their parents but not necessarily their grandparents.

Posted by: Doug at May 12, 2008 11:53 AM
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I think it was a matter of practicality with my mothers family. Big families just werent practical. One first cousin had 7 children but I think it was her way to make up for being abused and neglected when she was growing up. I dont know of any others who have had big families, and Im pretty much towards the end age wise. None of the women are young enough to have any more kids - the guys ... you never can tell about the guys ....

TR,

One year when we had birdies in the same spot, one of the birdies got out of the nest and fell in our neighbor's window-well thingie..so my brother had to get down in there and get him/her. The mommy bird was dive-bombing my brother in the window-well the whole time! It was probably the most amusing thing I had seen in a looong time! But the mommy was glad we got her baby out, that's for sure.

Posted by: Elizabeth at May 12, 2008 11:58 AM
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We have Mockingbirds and Blue Jays around here. They will smack you upside the head if you mess with their babies. And yes its hilarious to watch - not so funny when youre in a tree and youve got one going for your head. And if they hit you it hurts. I speak from experience. That was another reason my son brought me the baby jay - there didnt seem to be any sign of a parent anywhere.

Belated Happy Mommy's Day to all you moms out there!

Congrats to the Duggar family!

Don't mind Edyt...she only has cats to spend Mother's Day with...

oh but don't you know, Janet? It's okay for Edyt to make assumptions about what other people believe, even if she's never heard them speak before, but it's not okay for anyone else to make assumptions about what she believes based on what she says openly. lol

Actually, my statements were based on quite a few articles I've read, plus the bumper sticker on their car says "Evolution is a Lie: Save America Please!"

I'm still waiting to see where your assuptions came from.

This doesn't even make sense. You are angry with them because they are having lots of children and you think because children no longer die by the thousands in childhood that there's no reason to have a large family.

Umm... where did I say that? I don't recall ever saying they shouldn't have that many kids.

Well, think again. Maybe they love children and love each other alot. Maybe they feel "called" to be open to many children. Their large family is proof of just how wonderful advances in science can improve people's lives - they get to enjoy ALL their children and watch them grow up. By all accounts, all these children are healthy - another huge blessing. Not every large family is so lucky you know.

EXACTLY MY POINT. If it weren't for our discovery and understanding of the processes of evolution and our application of that knowledge to medicine, they would not be alive today!

I think what really bothers you Edyt is that this situation is so counter-cultural and is a reminder to proabort supports of what they are striving so hard to rid women of --- being mothers and being focused on family.

Right, except we're not, and I never said anything to that effect. I came from a big family too and I fully support a woman's decision to choose to have children. What really bothers me is the way fundamentalists shun the very science that saves and prolongs their lives.

I await a detailed explanation as to how understanding evolutionary theory and applying it to man has specifically brought about medical cures. One good case example would be sufficient.

Viruses. :) A highschooler wrote this and
it's a pretty good explanation about why doctors should have studied evolution and how it helps medicine.

Recall that the bone of contention separating the creationists and those who deny creation is a belief that the theory of Macroevolution is fact, and that it was both initiated and continues as a result of random events.

Except that there is no line between what makes evolution micro or macro and the whole debate was basically made up by creationists who don't want to accept evolution. Think of evolution as a spectrum. Close together are many many incidences of "microevolution" but over a broad span of the spectrum are what we call "macroevolution." Macroevolution is essentially the larger picture of those little changes over time.

Oh, and did I mention I don't approve of parents that parade their children around in front of the media? I don't care if you have two kids or twenty-four, you're making mini-celebrities out of your kids and it's not going to turn out well.

...It never does.

Oh, and did I mention I don't approve of parents that parade their children around in front of the media? I don't care if you have two kids or twenty-four, you're making mini-celebrities out of your kids and it's not going to turn out well.

...It never does.

Posted by: Edyt at May 12, 2008 2:22 PM
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Its like that family that had 7 infants - I think 3 have severe cerebral palsy and were still having to be fed with a feeding tube last I heard? They were making advertisements using them ... I think for a hotel chain? Totally creeped me out.

If you are thinking of the McCulloughs of Iowa, 2 have slight cerebral palsy, none have feeding tubes. They will be 12 in November.

Sorry. The McCaughey septuplets will be 11 in November.

If you are thinking of the McCulloughs of Iowa, 2 have slight cerebral palsy, none have feeding tubes. They will be 12 in November.

Posted by: Carla at May 12, 2008 2:51 PM
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The ones with CP needed feeding tubes until they were up older.

Ah, what wonders science can do. Fertility drugs and the survival of all seven of those babies.

Yes, I will put my "faith" into the hands of scientists. :)

http://www.lhj.com/lhj/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/lhj/story/data/14540.xml

I think the Duggars should check with Edyt before they have anymore kids.

I think the Duggars should check with Edyt before they have anymore kids

LOL!!!! Right on, Jasper. :D

I spose Momma Mccaughey should have aborted some. I'm sorry "selectively reduced."

Another large family that loves the Lord. :)

Hi Jasper. I see you'd like to join in the fun. Please feel free to point out where I said they shouldn't have that many kids. :)

Hi Bethany. Back to make more meritless assumptions? Or are you ready to apologize and hear what I actually think?

Ah, what wonders science can do. Fertility drugs and the survival of all seven of those babies.

Yes, I will put my "faith" into the hands of scientists. :)

Posted by: Edyt at May 12, 2008 3:03 PM
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Ive never understood why so many uber religious antichoicers insist that abortion is 'against the will of god' but dont have a problem with IVF even though infertility is 'gods will' too in the context of their beliefs.

I don't feel that I have anything to apologize for, Edyt. And I already know what you really think.

Happy Mother's day, TexasRed. I liked your posts about the birds today. We have blue jays that like to attack our heads too! :)

Oops, belated Mother's day. lol

Bobby, I hope so, and I don't see the point of mean-spirited things aimed at the Duggars, from a Pro-Choice perspective.
Looks to me like they have a good and caring attitude about raising their kids, and it's not like somebody with one kid or two would automatically be a better parent.

Great post, Doug.

Of course you do, Bethany. You are so super smart and know everything about what everyone else is thinking even if they said nothing of the sort. That's why you get another cookie. What is that, four now? What a smart girl.

Happy Mother's day, TexasRed. I liked your posts about the birds today. We have blue jays that like to attack our heads too! :)

Posted by: Bethany at May 12, 2008 3:21 PM
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Mockingbirds are even worse than Blue Jays. And doves - they will throw themselves down on the grouned and drag one wing, pretending to be hurt so you