I guess it will be up to Johnson County Republicans to decide whether they want to nominate a candidate for DA who will continue to be a perennial crusader against an organization that most people support, but has his own ethical problems including a stunningly poor attendance record at his post, or one who will do what a DA is supposed to do, which is show up to work and focus on prosecuting crimes. The winner of that contest will in turn face a Democrat in November, so Kline's re-election is by no means certain.

This is great news. Go Phil Kline, shut the baby-killin operation down.

This article about Kline's incompetence, bizarre appointments and botched cases came out a year ago.
He's done much worse in the last 12 months...
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The Dimwit D.A.

As Johnson County's top prosecutor, Phill Kline has been a disaster.

By Justin Kendall

Published on June 21, 2007

It was nearly two weeks before Republican Party leaders met in December to pick a new Johnson County district attorney. Two of the leading contenders, Phill Kline and Scott Hattrup, had arranged a secret meeting in a prominent Johnson County Republican's basement entertainment room. It was a weekday, after business hours, and Kline was fresh from meeting with GOP leaders to convince them to vote for him. He wore a tie and a blue shirt. He sat in the only seat available, across a counter from Hattrup. Kline was ready to make a deal.

District Attorney’s OfficeHattrup says a pair of well-known GOP leaders had brokered the meeting. They sensed "a Republican train wreck coming" if Hattrup and Kline faced off in a special vote for Johnson County district attorney. They suggested that Hattrup speak with Kline. Kline wasn't returning Hattrup's calls, so one of the Republicans had set up the meeting.

In November, Kline had lost his bid for re-election as Kansas attorney general. The man who beat him was Johnson County District Attorney Paul Morrison. Kline began a stealth campaign to switch jobs with Morrison and become Johnson County's top prosecutor.

Hattrup was the only other conservative Republican in a race of four lawyers vying for the job. Hattrup knew he couldn't win. Kline had earned support among the conservative wing of the party for his crusade against abortion. But Hattrup, a stocky, reddish-bearded defense lawyer, wasn't about to go quietly. "I was not going to back down," Hattrup recalls, "just because Phill Kline wanted me to back down."

Kline could wrap up the conservative vote with Hattrup out of the race. He offered Hattrup a deal. If he dropped out, Kline would hire him as a prosecutor.

Kline and Hattrup went way back. Hattrup, an anti-gun-control, anti-embryonic-stem-cell-research Republican, helped Kline in his 1998 race for the Kansas statehouse by digging up dirt on Kline's opponent. When Kline ran for Congress in 2000, Hattrup alerted him to the fact that Kline's law license had expired. More recently, Hattrup helped Kline in his unsuccessful re-election campaign for attorney general.

Even with all this history, Hattrup asked Kline to put the deal in writing. Kline refused. Hattrup asked for some assurance. Hattrup remembers that Kline told him slowly and deliberately, "You will be able to prosecute cases in my office."

Hattrup took the deal.

But Kline didn't want Hattrup to drop out just yet. Kline wanted him in the running until the night of the special election. Kline also told him not to go public; he didn't want the media to find out about the deal.

The night of the December 11 special election went as planned. When the meeting began, a delegate nominated Kline. Hattrup pulled out.

Kline won, 316-291. Kline's victory speech was short. "I look forward to working with all of you to ensure that justice is served, that the right decisions are made and that our communities and children are safe," Kline said, according to an article in The Olathe News. "Thank you very much for this honor."

Later that night, Hattrup ate with Kline's entourage at a Ruby Tuesday. "As far as I knew, I was one of the gang," Hattrup says.

On January 8, Hattrup attended Kline's swearing-in ceremony. Kline told him that they needed to set up a meeting to discuss Hattrup's hiring. Two days later, Kline summoned Hattrup to his office. Kline was direct during the 45-minute meeting. Kline spent most of the meeting explaining why he was backing out of the deal. Kline even claimed that it was Hattrup who hadn't honored their agreement. "I'm not going to do it," Hattrup recalls Kline telling him. "I'm not going to hire you as a prosecutor."

"If I had to put money on it, I would have bet on it happening exactly the way that it played out," Hattrup says of the deal. "Phill's goal is to make sure Phill Kline gets what Phill Kline wants."

Finally, Kline offered Hattrup a part-time job prosecuting traffic cases. "I considered it an insult," Hattrup says. "I considered it him trying to cover his promise." However, Hattrup considered the job. He wouldn't have a chance to make a decision. The next morning, Kline called Hattrup and told him the job was off the table.

The broken promise is one example of the skullduggery that has plagued the first six months of Kline's two-year term as district attorney. Kline has fired or run off nearly every experienced prosecutor in the District Attorney's Office. Of the 32 prosecutors who served under Morrison, 18 have resigned or been dismissed. Many of Kline's handpicked replacements lack experience, and a number of his experienced prosecutors come with checkered pasts. Kline has been accused of alienating anyone who won't support him politically. A top prosecutor has charged that Kline bugged her office. Most significantly, his prosecutors have fumbled several important criminal cases.

The Pitch made several requests for interviews with Kline and his assistant district attorneys. Kline declined to comment. At a press conference last week, the Pitch asked Kline to assess his six months in office so far. "We've done some good things," he said. Kline claimed that his office has done more to cooperate with federal prosecutors, has improved the process of prosecuting DUI cases and has cut payroll costs. "But I don't anticipate that much of that will get out," he added.

Meanwhile, several former and current employees have detailed for the Pitch the many alleged missteps of Kline's office.

Bryan Denton's first and last duty under Phill Kline was to set up Kline's January 8 swearing-in party. Denton, the office's chief investigator for 15 years, was sent to a Hy-Vee store with Sheila Fanning, a supervisor in the juvenile unit. They bought sandwiches, veggie trays and cake. They took the food to a meeting room on the third floor of the Johnson County Courthouse.

Denton set up the reception and photographed the festivities. Afterward, he returned to the office, where his letter of termination was waiting.

"We didn't know that we were going to get your last meal, did we?" Fanning asked Denton.

"No, we didn't," he said.

That morning, Kline's hatchet man, Chief Deputy District Attorney Eric Rucker, moved through the office handing out letters of termination. "Your employment with the Johnson County District Attorney's Office is terminated as of 11:00 a.m. today, January 8, 2007," the letters read. "You should turn in all County-issued property and remove your personal items from your space before 5:00 p.m. today. Thank you for your service."

The letters weren't signed by Kline. They were signed by Rucker.

The eight fired were Denton; Mike Allen, a prose-cutor for two and a half years in the sex-crimes unit; Jennifer Barton, a member of the domestic-violence and sex-crimes units; Norah Clark, a prosecutor in the traffic unit; John Fritz, a 20-year prosecutor and an expert in juvenile law; Steve Howe, an 18-year prosecutor and the head of the intern program; Kristiane Gray, a prosecutor in the juvenile unit; and Kendra Lewison, a prosecutor for five years.

The fired employees, dubbed the "Olathe Eight" in newspapers and on television, sued Kline on January 16. The suit, now in federal court, alleges that Kline denied them their due-process right to hearings with the county to contest their firings.

As Rucker delivered pink slips, Kline's lead prosecutor, Stephen Maxwell, poked his head into the offices of the surviving prosecutors. Assistant District Attorney Jenifer Ashford had just finished helping Lewison clean out her desk when Maxwell arrived.

"Ashford?" Maxwell asked.

"Yeah."

"OK, you're fine," he told her before walking away.

"That's how I found out that I wasn't fired," Ashford recalls.

Kline stripped assistant district attorneys of their discretion to plea-bargain felony cases. All deals had to run through the section chiefs and then be approved by Kline or both Maxwell and Rucker.

Rumors of hidden video cameras near the break room circulated through the office. An atmosphere of distrust grew between the Kline hires and the surviving members of Morrison's staff.

The defections resumed in late April. Five more experienced prosecutors bolted: Ashford, Brent Venneman, Vanessa Riebli, Erica Schoenig and Kathryn Marsh. Riebli, who led the unit that handles economic crime, would have been 100 percent vested in her retirement account if she had stayed two more months. She couldn't wait. She resigned April 23.

On March 19, Assistant District Attorney Jacqie Spradling sent Kline, Rucker and Maxwell a memo expressing concern "that dysfunction in the D.A.'s Office is creating a public safety crisis." The letter continued: "Criminals are walking the streets of Johnson County because this office has botched cases that would have been routine successes in the past.... We cannot wait for the new hires to learn their jobs — we have a crisis that needs to be addressed now. I respectfully suggest that you arrange for the temporary assignment of experienced prosecutors from the A.G.'s office to our office."

Spradling also filed a complaint March 19 with the county's human resources department. The complaint claimed that female attorneys in the District Attorney's Office were being discriminated against and that anyone who complained was threatened with retaliation. And Spradling alleged that her office had been bugged. Johnson County's human resources department began an investigation into Spradling's allegations. The county requested additional information from Kline's office. On April 20, Kline's office replied that it would not cooperate with the investigation.

On April 24, Kline fired Spradling over the phone. Spradling says Kline didn't specify the reason.

Spradling spoke to a packed room of Johnson County women Democrats on May 22. Spradling explained that being an outspoken woman in Kline's office was unacceptable. "As a whole, women are not viewed as folks that should be expressing opinions," Spradling said. "Turns out, I've got some. I was not supposed to express them, and the fact that I expressed them frequently I think they found annoying."

Spradling also explained what led to her allegations that Kline had spied on her. In March, a person not affiliated with the District Attorney's Office came to Spradling's office and began writing on a piece of paper. The person wrote that they needed to talk away from the office. Spradling and the person met outside. The person told Spradling that a senior member of Kline's staff had revealed that surveillance equipment was set up in the District Attorney's Office.

Spradling claimed that she scanned her office four times with a device that detects radio frequencies from wireless eavesdropping devices. Three times, she says, the sensor detected a radio frequency signal emitted by wireless eavesdropping devices. "No one should work under those circumstances," Spradling said. "And there's no place for that nonsense in the prosecutor's office."

Jury selection for the Andrew Ellmaker case began on a Monday morning. Maxwell, Kline's chief prosecutor, handled the case. Maxwell's record in Johnson County was no wins, one felony loss and two hung juries.

Ellmaker was accused of murdering social worker Teri Zenner and dismembering her body with a chain saw. Maxwell added a personal touch to jury selection. "If my wife and I ended up on a jury together, you'd never get a verdict," Maxwell told the potential jurors, implying that he and his wife couldn't agree on anything.

Shawnee County court records don't disagree with Maxwell. The records show that Maxwell has been divorced four times since 1987. An April 1991 divorce record claims that Maxwell "misrepresented that he would be able to have children."

Maxwell also told the potential jurors that he would say stupid things and ask stupid questions. There was history there, too. The Kansas Supreme Court cited Maxwell, then an assistant attorney general, for prosecutorial misconduct in a 2000 murder case. During closing arguments, Maxwell accused the defendant of lying 11 times, and he continued to call him a liar even after the judge sustained an objection by the defense and directed jurors to ignore the comment. But Maxwell wouldn't quit. "The state tells you he lied," he told the jury. The Kansas Supreme Court ruled Maxwell's conduct improper. "This is the rare case in which the prosecutor's improper remarks during closing argument were so prejudicial that a new trial is required," the court said.

In the Ellmaker case, Maxwell scored his first felony conviction in Johnson County. Ellmaker's mother testified against him, and Ellmaker had Zenner's blood on him when he was arrested. It was a slam-dunk case, even for someone with Maxwell's record as a Johnson County prosecutor.

Many of Kline's replacement prosecutors have been criticized as either inept or unqualified. Some accuse Kline of hiring employees simply for their conservative values and history of supporting Kline's campaigns. Few of the new hires had experience with criminal prosecution. Assistants were training the new hires how to try cases, according to Fanning, a former juvenile support staff supervisor who resigned in March.

The day after firing Spradling, Kline introduced Sue Carpenter as head of the domestic-violence unit. After Kline hired her, his office falsely claimed in a press release that Carpenter was a managing partner with Tomes & Dvorak, Chartered, of Overland Park. She was only a senior associate. Carpenter had been an assistant district attorney in Shawnee County from 1979 to 1993. In 1991, the Kansas Supreme Court publicly censured her for falsely implying that the defendant in a rape case gave the victim gonorrhea, despite the fact that she knew it wasn't true.

Kline's handpicked replacement for Fritz was Shelley Diehl. Diehl had been a special assistant attorney general in the Kansas Insurance Department, and was a prosecutor for Douglas County. Diehl was hired at $79,996.80, but, in just two months, her salary was bumped up to $86,996.79. Since Diehl's arrival January 9, police reports in the juvenile unit have backlogged. As of February 8, the backlogged cases had ballooned to 225, Fanning tells the . It's Diehl's job to make sure that charges are being filed promptly against juveniles. "Somebody's going to get killed, quite frankly," Fanning says, "because you can't just let those police reports lay around there like that."

The promotions of former Morrison prosecutors Sarah Geolas, Jill Kenney and Patrick Carney to section chiefs have also surprised courthouse watchers. "They wouldn't have been section chiefs for five years," says a Johnson County defense attorney familiar with the prosecutor's office. Geolas replaced Brent Venneman, who led the drug unit for nearly six years and was a 14-year office veteran. Geolas had only six months of experience working in the unit. Critics say Kenney, with five years as a prosecutor, also lacked the experience to be promoted to section chief. Kenney now heads the traffic unit. And Carney, who has also been a licensed attorney for five years, took over the unit that handles economic crime.

But the most talked-about hires have been Jesse Paine and R.W. Mozingo.

While students at Washburn University, Paine and Mozingo led a student group called the Christian Legal Society. According to Topeka Capital-Journal stories published in late 2004, Paine refused to let a student lead Bible study because the student was a Mormon. Because of that incident, the student government cut funding to his organization. Paine and Mozingo's group then filed a federal lawsuit in September 2004 against the university. After the lawsuit was filed, the student government reinstated funding with reassurances that Paine and Mozingo's group would welcome all students. The group dropped the case in April 2005.

Paine's wife, Crystal, runs a Web site called BiblicalWomanhood.com, which offers advice on how to be a good and obedient Christian wife. Jesse Paine's entries on the site suggest that he's a Kline disciple. In June 2001, Paine wrote about what it was like waiting for his future wife: "I had to place Crystal on His altar and give her to Him." Paine wrote that he and his parents began "seriously praying about Crystal" in the winter of 2000. Finally, his father went to Crystal's dad and told him that Jesse wanted to court Crystal. "This is a significant step because under our definition of courtship, we are both committed to marriage, and not to a 'let's try it and see if this works' mentality," Paine wrote.

In May, the Paines were featured in the British documentary Obedient Wives. The BBC's Web site describes the show: "And 26-year-old mother and wife Crystal believes that a wife's primary role is to support and assist her husband. She thinks that wives who work are selfish and that a good wife knows when to keep her mouth shut."

After he was hired by Kline, Paine was assigned to filing charges against those suspected of domestic violence. Paine was told to give priority to cases in which the defendants were in jail; prosecuting such cases first saves the county money that it would otherwise spend housing the inmates. Several sources tell the Pitch that Paine was quickly bounced to the traffic unit with Mozingo.

"The interns that were there [already] were leaps and bounds ahead of these guys," says Ashford, the former assistant district attorney who left in April. "We get interns every year that come to work for Johnson County, and these people cannot wait to get into court and start duking it out and learning. That's what you're used to, and you're not used to someone who is so very, very timid and fearful."

On May 25, Kline's office released a progress report to The Olathe News. The report claimed that Kline's case filings and dismissals, in terms of numbers, matched those of previous Morrison years. Kline claimed that he released the report, which covered his first 100 days in office, to quiet his critics.

"I just want to get the truth out there. It's vitally important to be transparent," Kline told the paper. "I think you need a little bit more time to let these facts sort themselves out, but this clearly shows that some of the silliness that's been bandied about isn't true."

Not exactly. Kline's figures looked at the first 100 days of his tenure and compared it to the same time last year. The figures showed that he had filed fewer cases than Morrison — 2,478 to 2,600. His numbers showed a drop in the number of juvenile, criminal and domestic-violence cases filed. Dismissals over the same period have risen from 39 last year to 52.

Statistics aside, what matters is what's actually happening in Johnson County courtrooms. The Pitch has conducted interviews with 10 current and former employees with the Johnson County District Attorney's Office.

Several of them have shared details of at least 30 botched cases. The cases show that Kline's new hires failed to have a basic understanding of rules of evidence, failed to identify defendants during preliminary hearings, and made lenient deals in cases involving violent crimes. Among the questionable cases:

· Kline's lead prosecutor, Stephen Maxwell, scored a hung jury on March 14 in the second murder trial of David Stagg, a music professor accused of murdering his lover, William Jennings. After the first trial, a jury returned a 9-3 decision in favor of a guilty verdict, leading to a mistrial. A second jury also couldn't reach a verdict, with three jurors favoring guilt before a second mistrial was declared. A Johnson County judge granted Stagg an acquittal March 29.

· John Lowe was accused on January 6, 2006, of threatening to cut his son to pieces. Lowe represented himself. Prosecutors Dave Davies and Eric Rucker gave him a deal on April 13 that allowed Lowe to plead to two "level C" misdemeanors, the lowest-level criminal charge. Instead of 14 months behind bars, Lowe was released with a sentence of the time he had already served in jail.

· Davies cut a similar deal in a case against Randolph Aiken. A witness claimed that Aiken drove in circles in a front yard on December 15, 2006, chasing a person who was on foot, according to police reports. Aiken was facing about a year in jail on a charge of felony aggravated assault, but Davies reduced the charge to misdemeanor assault. On April 13, Aiken received 30 days in jail and a year's probation.

· On April 24, Paine lacked evidence at a preliminary hearing to determine whether John Donnelly Furmanski had failed to pay child support. Without evidence that Furmanski hadn't made his payments, a judge dismissed the charges.

· Rucker showed little knowledge of hearsay evidence during a May 2 hearing for Johnny Earl Belcher, who is accused of kidnapping a man and threatening to kill him. Witnesses are typically not allowed to testify as to what somebody told them. But Rucker asked a detective what Belcher had told him, and Belcher's attorney objected. Rucker said, "He was the personal hearer of this testimony, your honor." Rucker could have cited an evidence rule for why the statement should be allowed, but without it, the judge sustained the objection.

· Damion Serrioz was arrested on a felony charge of driving while intoxicated on July 26, 2006. During his arrest, Serrioz was accused of striking Overland Park police officer Laurie Bridges. The police claimed that Serrioz possessed an open container, refused to take a sobriety test and had been driving with a suspended license. Serrioz already had two prior DUI convictions. The records were in the file when Sue Carpenter attended the preliminary hearing on the new DUI charge. Judge John Anderson III dismissed all of the charges on May 3 because Carpenter didn't realize that the certified copies of the DUI convictions were in the file and never offered them as evidence.

· Shalom Tolefree was accused of aggravated battery causing great bodily harm to a woman on May 11, 2006. According to sources familiar with the case, Tolefree struck the victim so hard that he broke her jaw in two places, knocked her out and put her in the hospital for a week. It wasn't Tolefree's first run-in with the law. Court records show that Tolefree pleaded guilty in November 2002 to felony first-degree assault, felony second-degree assault, misdemeanor third-degree assault and felony resisting arrest. Tolefree's conviction history allowed a sentence of up to 13 years in prison. Carpenter reduced the charges to attempted aggravated battery. When Tolefree is sentenced on July 13, he'll likely get about three years.

· On December 24, 2006, Jannise Nathanniel was accused of beating his victim with a belt until it broke, beating her with another belt and throwing a jewelry box at her, according to police reports. Nathanniel was charged with aggravated battery causing great bodily harm. Carpenter cut a plea deal with Nathanniel on May 14 in which he agreed to plead guilty to a lesser battery charge. Instead of facing six years in prison, Nathanniel will serve about a year and a half.

· No one from Kline's office showed up to a hearing about the possible parole of Michael Peterson, who was convicted in 1984 of first-degree murder for killing a woman in a Christian Science reading room. A member of the District Attorney's Office often tells the three-member parole board why a prisoner should not be released. The Friday before the hearing, an employee reminded Kline, Rucker and Maxwell that Peterson's first parole hearing was scheduled for Monday. But no prosecutors from Kline's office showed up for the hearing. The parole board meets this month to consider releasing Peterson.

· On the night of April 2, Kline's chief investigator, Tom Williams, tried to serve a subpoena at the Stilwell home of Theodore Herzog. When Williams pulled up, Herzog was cleaning a pistol and a shotgun in his garage. Williams, who is not a certified law-enforcement officer, called sheriff's deputies to arrest Herzog. According to a transcript, Williams told the 911 dispatcher, "I'd a [sic] shot him if I had a gun." When deputies found that Herzog had not committed a crime, Maxwell called the Johnson County Sheriff's Office and demanded that deputies arrest Herzog. The next day, a magistrate judge reviewed Herzog's arrest. The judge found that Herzog hadn't committed a crime, and the judge rejected the charge against Herzog. Kline's office then filed an aggravated assault charge against Herzog. Herzog had been scheduled to testify in a DUI case being prosecuted by Maxwell. Maxwell claimed that he did not know the circumstances behind Herzog's arrest, even though court records indicate that Maxwell ordered the arrest. Several lawyers say Maxwell's denials to the court raise ethical questions.

Screw-ups happen in criminal cases, and even competent prosecutors cut deals or dismiss charges when warranted by the evidence. But six months in, several seasoned prosecutors and lawyers say they shouldn't be happening with this frequency.

Though Kline did not comment for this article, his public information officer, Brian Burgess, defends the work of the office's prosecutors. "The bottom line on all of these cases is going to be that these attorneys are going to make the best decision that they have, given the evidence and the facts," Burgess tells the Pitch. "The point is, it's not your place or my place to second-guess the attorneys that are involved and the police officers and the investigators, the judges and the victims, who are all generally consulted on these things."

In the wake of these serious blunders, Kline has taken on what may be his highest-profile case during his tenure as district attorney.

Kline's office has filed first-degree murder charges against Edwin R. Hall. Kline says Hall abducted and murdered 18-year-old Kelsey Smith, who was snatched from the parking lot of a Target store in Overland Park. Smith's body was discovered in a wooded area in southern Jackson County, Missouri. Kline's office has claimed jurisdiction in the case, telling the press that the case belongs to his office because Smith's kidnapping originated in Johnson County.

Kline also remains in the news for his continued anti-abortion crusade. Last week, an expert hired by Kline when Kline was attorney general challenged abortions conducted by Wichita doctor George Tiller. Morrison blasted Kline's expert for meddling in a criminal investigation and ordered him not to speak publicly about his opinions on the case.

Kline is attempting to ease tensions between his office and the Johnson County Board of Commissioners. Kline agreed to meet the commissioners at a public retreat at 2 p.m. June 21 in room 250 of the Johnson County Administration Building.

Since he took office in January, Kline has continually said he doesn't intend to run again. Asked last Thursday during a press conference, Kline said: "I don't know." Kline has 17 months left, and already there's stiff competition in the 2008 race for district attorney. Former Johnson County assistant district attorney Steve Howe announced last week his intention to run for the job. Rick Guinn, Paul Morrison's longtime assistant district attorney, announced last week that he intends to run for Johnson County district attorney. Guinn held his press conference on the steps of the Johnson County Courthouse. His main complaint against Kline: mishandled criminal cases.

Thanks for posting that, Laura. It sounds like Kline is even worse than anything I had read about him.

Jill, if you read the article, are you still so excited about Kline running for re-election? If I was a voter and taxpayer in Johnson County, I'd be pissed off, and just waiting to give him the bum's rush.

Finally, I just have to make a tongue-in-cheek comment about hired-by-Kline prosecutor Jesse Paine and his bibical womanhood wife, who..."thinks that wives who work are selfish and that a good wife knows when to keep her mouth shut." Are there any biblical womanhood antis here? If so, get off the internet and back into the kitchen where you belong!

shockwaves? Yawn.

Laura:

Please quote reliable authors. Justin Kendall is a Liberal hack.

Here's a typical nut job article written by him. He's got no credibility and nither do you.

By Justin Kendall
Published on October 25, 2007
A post-lunch porn rush is under way at Hollywood at Home Movies and Magazines. A few men ranging in age from late 20s to upper 60s pass by the new releases and classics in the front of the Overland Park store. Over the course of an hour on a Tuesday afternoon, men march up the stairs at the back of the store, push through the see-through, baby-blue curtain and enter a tiny room dedicated to adult magazines and videos. They browse the movie titles, flip through the magazines and, eventually, drop $7 apiece to rent videos for four nights.

Anna-Marie Perry

Former Abilene minister Virgil Eubanks says everything inside the Lion’s Den is obscene.
Subject(s):
Larry Flynt, Johnson County, Wyandotte County, PornographyOn the store's back wall, a poster advertises Hustler publisher Larry Flynt's best-selling book Sex, Lies & Politics: The Naked Truth. The pornography baron watches over the shop like a portly guardian angel, and he's an appropriate one. Hollywood at Home is caught in a Flynt-style free-speech fight.

On September 25, a Johnson County grand jury indicted the video store on misdemeanor criminal charges of promoting obscenity. The store's alleged crime was renting out four allegedly obscene movies — Don't Kiss Me I'm Straight, Hellcats 12, Anal Machines and Real Female Masturbation. A man who gave his name as Sean O'Cleary rented the videos in late August and never returned them. He had paid a $100 deposit and, later, called to tell the store that he'd turned the films over to the grand jury.

The grand jury handed down 15 obscenity charges against the store and three other Johnson County businesses. They're accused of renting out racy videos, selling sex toys and displaying obnoxious Halloween costumes.

Johnson County isn't alone. Citizen petitions have forced grand juries to convene throughout Kansas. This grassroots effort is the work of Phillip Cosby, a Ned Flanders look-alike and anti-pornography crusader. The 56-year-old retired Army master sergeant is the zealous leader of the Kansas City office of the National Coalition for the Protection of Children & Families.

Cosby calls sex shops "an open sewer," "a moral cancer" and "a wicked stronghold." He has cautioned that "a tsunami is hitting our community." He blames the sex industry for causing rape and pedophilia. (Violent secondary effects of porn consumption have been widely discredited.) He has even coined a pet name for businesses that sell adult videos or sex toys: SOBs — an acronym for "sexually oriented businesses."

Cosby's bosses at the Cincinnati-based National Coalition preach "biblical sexual ethics." They don't want people watching porn, reading X-rated magazines, masturbating with sex toys or engaging in premarital or gay sex. They want trials in order to redefine obscenity in communities throughout Kansas.

The coalition's vision of community standards may not be representative of Johnson County, as a trip to Hollywood at Home and the other accused stores implies. Still, Cosby's Kansas City pornography jihad will serve as a test run for the rest of America: If he successfully shuts down the metro area's porn shops, the national office will wage similar holy wars with porn stores across the nation.

But Cosby's efforts are toothless. The Kansas obscenity statute that Cosby relies on has been ruled unconstitutional, and the stores he has targeted can beat the charges — if they choose to fight.

Cosby's strategy is possible thanks to a Kansas law that allows any citizen to convene a grand jury.

Cosby declined to discuss his strategy with The Pitch for this story, citing the paper's "bent." "We're not really moving in the same direction," he said. "I know you believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe, and I think we're just not a good fit."

After the indictments were issued, Cosby claimed in news reports that law enforcement officials were "breathing a sigh of relief" and referred to himself and his followers as "the cavalry."

It's unclear whether law enforcement considers Cosby "the cavalry." Of the dozens of stores that Cosby has targeted over the years, none has closed its doors.

Nowhere is that more evident than in his hometown of Abilene, Kansas.

Giant gold letters scream "Adult" from the horizon as Interstate 70 curves west toward the heart of Kansas. A second word — "Superstore" — slowly becomes clear as the miles click closer to Exit 272.

The Fair Road exit leads directly to the entrance of the Lion's Den Adult Superstore. This is where Phillip Cosby's war on pornography began four years ago.

Just after 1 p.m. on an early October afternoon, it's clear who won the war by looking at the half-dozen cars parked outside the gray, wood-paneled building. An 18-wheeler idles near the fenced-in entrance. The store's tinted windows are covered with advertisements for an in-store appearance by voluptuous porn star Stormy Daniels.

In September 2003, the Lion's Den opened in an abandoned Stuckey's restaurant just west of Abilene. The Stuckey's had sat empty for years, rundown and neglected. Then one day, Abilene residents saw renovations under way at the building. Guards watched the entrance to the store as workers unloaded trucks. No one was allowed in the parking lot.

The next day, the Lion's Den opened.

Rumors spread that an adult bookstore had opened. A group of citizens decided to see for themselves and went on a fact-finding mission, says Virgil Eubanks, an Abilene resident and former pastor who retired in September from the First Christian Church of Abilene. What Eubanks saw inside the interstate superstore was "raw pornography."

"If you're asking for my opinion, everything in that store is obscene," Eubanks says. "That was the easy part."

Phillip Cosby was a month away from retiring from the U.S. Army. With a 22-year military career ending, Cosby found a second calling as an outspoken anti-pornography crusader. Cosby placed an ad in the Abilene Reflector-Chronicle seeking men to join his battle with the Lion's Den; 140 responded, according to the September issue of KC Business. Cosby and Eubanks formed a coalition of churches, pastors and local residents called Citizens for Strengthening Community Virtues. A two-year legal battle with the Lion's Den and its customers followed.

On November 6, 2003, Cosby and Eubanks returned with the Dickinson County sheriff for a shopping spree at the Lion's Den. Eubanks says the sheriff told them that buying the sex toys and videos "was the best way to collect evidence." According to a February 14, 2004, article in the Abilene Reflector-Chronicle, Dickinson County taxpayers picked up the $1,332.71 tab for 36 items charged to a Sheriff's Office credit card. Among the DVDs and sex toys were black handcuffs for $7.95, a 36-inch whip for $61.95 and an anatomically correct inflatable pig (named Ms. Piglet) for $21.95.

Cosby's group launched "Operation Daniel," a 100-day picket named after the prophet Daniel, who was cast into a den of lions but was spared because of his faith in God. They picketed the Lion's Den in shifts, like striking union members.

Picketers began to target anyone who pulled into the parking lot. They jotted down license-plate numbers from semis and called the trucking companies to out the drivers who had stopped at the sex shop. They called businesses that owned company cars spotted outside the place. They called wives and fami­ly members of locals who shopped there.

Responses to the phone calls were mixed.

"Some companies responded very favorably. And we're glad we called them," Eubanks recalls. "Others didn't seem to care much."

Thanks to the pickets, business at the Lion's Den dropped by 30 percent, and 75 percent of the truckers kept driving, Cosby bragged to Christian newswire AgapePress in January 2004. The Lion's Den declined to comment on Cosby's efforts.

The campaign wasn't about hurting business at the Lion's Den, says the Rev. Mike Keating, pastor of Emanuel United Methodist Church in Abilene, where Cosby was a parishioner. The point, Keating says, was to make the shopping habits of Lion's Den customers known to their friends, family and employers. "Overall, people were appreciative and polite because it was handled in that tone," Keating says.

Meanwhile, Cosby ran for Dickinson County Commissioner on a values campaign. At the height of his celebrity, Cosby finished third out of five candidates in the primary election, receiving 452 votes.

Cosby also petitioned for a grand jury, which found that the Lion's Den sold obscene items, including dildos, strap-on devices and fake vaginas. The charges were thrown out because of a clerical error. But a year later, Dickinson County filed 10 new charges of obscenity against the Lion's Den for selling blow-up dolls, artificial vaginas and an artificial mouth.

Cosby's efforts had a fatal flaw. He relied on a 1986 law that made dildos and artificial vaginas illegal. The law had been thrown out by the Kansas Supreme Court in 1990. In that case, prosecutors had charged Wichita adult-bookstore owner Randy L. Hughes with obscenity for selling undercover cops "The Sexplorer Pleasure System," a vibrator kit with a dildo attachment, and "Miss World," an inflatable doll with an artificial vagina. The high court declared the statute unconstitutional because "the Legislature may not declare a device obscene merely because it relates to human sexual activity."

Laura:

Please quote reliable authors. Justin Kendall is a Liberal hack.

Here's a typical nut job article written by him. He's got no credibility and nither do you.

Posted by: HisMan at June 10, 2008 2:05 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What in that porn story led you to believe that Justin Kendall is a "Liberal hack?"

What makes that story a "nut job article?"

By the way, that porn shop story was really funny. I loved this part about the righteous busting the evildoers - and it turned out nobody could care less:

"Cosby's group launched "Operation Daniel," a 100-day picket named after the prophet Daniel, who was cast into a den of lions but was spared because of his faith in God. They picketed the Lion's Den in shifts, like striking union members.

Picketers began to target anyone who pulled into the parking lot. They jotted down license-plate numbers from semis and called the trucking companies to out the drivers who had stopped at the sex shop. They called businesses that owned company cars spotted outside the place. They called wives and fami­ly members of locals who shopped there.

Responses to the phone calls were mixed.

"Some companies responded very favorably. And were glad we called them," Eubanks recalls. "Others didn't seem to care much."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I thought that this part tells you everything you need to know about the anti-porniacs:

"The campaign wasn't about hurting business at the Lion's Den, says the Rev. Mike Keating, pastor of Emanuel United Methodist Church in Abilene, where Cosby was a parishioner. The point, Keating says, was to make the shopping habits of Lion's Den customers known to their friends, family and employers."

Laura: I don't even read those articles you post.

Way to go Phil Kline! This man is a real prolife warrior.

What a clown.

Ray, 10:28p, said: "... but has his own ethical problems including a stunningly poor attendance record at his post, or one who will do what a DA is supposed to do, which is show up to work and focus on prosecuting crimes."

Ray, did you read Kline's statement. Betting no. In it he listed his accomplishments as JoCo. And what do you call his focus and prosecution of PP for breaking KS abortion laws and then trying to cover them up?

Hope you're holding Obama to the same work attendance record, btw. I live in IL and he hasn't shown up for work as my senator for 1-1/2 years.

Jill,

Just a sideline on your Senator Obama. Did you know children who go to ERs for asthma need breathilyzers and inhalators? That's Obama without a teleprompter.

An elected official with a spine!

Truly a wonder to behold.

5 Smooth Stones.

Mary, Obama is an excellent impromptu speaker. He doesn't need a teleprompter. McCain, on the other hand, REGULARLY squints to read his during his speaches. His handlers have yelled at him about it but it doesn't seem to help.

Hope you're holding Obama to the same work attendance record, btw. I live in IL and he hasn't shown up for work as my senator for 1-1/2 years.

That's a bit disingenuous, Jill, given that Obama is running for president. He is my senator, too, and I support him 100%. Besides, the representation Illinois would gain with him in the White House is nothing to sneeze at.

By the way, your guy McCain's record during the same period has been, if anything, worse. For claiming to represent veterans so completely, he didn't even bother to show up to vote on the most recent war funding authorization bill, which included vastly improved veterans' benefits.

Please quote reliable authors. Justin Kendall is a Liberal hack.

Hisman and Patricia, "liberal hack" or not, the facts in Justin Kendall's article are verifiable, and paint a picture of an imperious, lazy, incompetent, cronyistic man who has no business holding that office. The citizens of Johnson County deserve a dedicated, effective DA, who prosecutes every day crimes instead of exclusively tilting at windmills. Your "pro-life" warrior is making life there more dangerous by neglecting to perform his duties.

Just a sideline on your Senator Obama. Did you know children who go to ERs for asthma need breathilyzers and inhalators? That's Obama without a teleprompter.

Mary, just a reply to your sideline. I have heard Obama speak in person, without prepared remarks. He is eloquent and well spoken, nothing at all like your guy Bush, whose frequent verbal fumbles, which continue to this day, have inspired a moniker for them: Bushisms.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushisms.htm

Mike Nifong just got a job delivering pizza. He has a sign that sticks to the roof of his Geo Metro and everything. Tips are good. So if the taxpayers of KS are tired of the Kline circus, there is a future career for Phill.

Great post, Laura.

HisMan, your obsession with pornography is disturbing. May I suggest you make a date with Miss Piglet, and work out some of that aggression?

HisMan,

If the author is a liberal hack, do you have any links to dispute any of the facts of those cases he mentioned?

Ray, please let me know what BHO has done, as a Sentator, to help the citizens of illinois since he has taken office.

:: Crickets ::

As someone who lives in Johnson County, I can tell you that Kline is extremely unpopular. JoCo voters overwhelmingly rejected him when he ran for re-election for attorney general. He was appointed to the current position, not elected. He's breaking a promise not to run for re-election. Pro-lifers should not be duped -- he's doing this for Phill Kline, not for the movement.

Here's an alternate take, courtesy of a Kansas Republican blog, http://thekansasrepublican.blogspot.com/:

"Well it appears that Phil Kline, who was once a standard bearer for the pro-life community, has decided to put his own personal ambition and ego ahead of advancing the pro-life cause. Why Kline would choose do something that would give Planned Parenthood Chapters across the country such pleasure is beyond me. It appears he's been drinking from the fountain of pro-life notoriety for so long that he's incapable of discerning the real battles anymore.

"The facts are quite simple. First, Democrats are fielding Rick Guinn, a solid candidate who if elected, will surely drop any of the Tiller-related investigations that Kline has pending as well as ignore any politically charged abortion fights in the future. Second, given Kline's approval ratings in JoCo, it would take at the least a morrison-esq of a scandal for Kline to beat Guinn in the general. Third, Steve Howe is not some pro-choice moderate. He is pro-life. Fourth, the ship has already set sail. Due in part to Kline's absence and the contentious JoCo climate that surrounds the race, various prominent pro-life advocates and Republican establishment players have coalesced around Steve Howe's candidacy. So unlike level-headed politicians who would prefer to put the issues ahead of their own personal ambition (like Gov. Matt Blunt who chose not to pursue reelection for the good of the party), Phil Kline has decided to fracture the party, fracture the cause and offer a victory to pro-choice Democrats.

"And so I say, the only explanation for Kline's willingness to make a move that would only work to strengthen Rick Guinn and Planned Parenthoods' hand, is that he's an egomanic who is not pro-life."

Ray and SOMG

This is the guy who wants to run your health care, a man who doesn't know the difference between a breathalyzer and an inhalator? That's an "inhaler" by the way folks.
Come on, if this was John McCain you would be howling about a "senior moment". If it was Bush you would be laughing at the "Bushism". By the way, I've heard both these men speak well too.

You should listen to the entire episode. The guy bumbles and stumbles through it. Its a hoot.

Ray, please let me know what BHO has done, as a Sentator, to help the citizens of illinois since he has taken office.

:: Crickets ::
Posted by: Charles at June 10, 2008 10:35 AM

Charles, here's a short list for you and your crickets
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4678548

In 2000 (1998?) I worked my fingers to the bone to help unseat a local Superior Court Judge.

She was a Democrat - just like me.
She was pro-choice - just like me.
She was a feminist - just like me.

She was also a total frikkin' loon who SUCKED at her job.

>She handed down freakishly lenient sentences to sex offenders who preyed on children.
(It turned out that one of her two stepsons was registered as a mentally disordered sex offender.
Her other stepson? She married him after divorcing his dad...)

>She gave a slap on the hand to a man who beat his wife to death with a golf club. She cited the fact that the late victim had collected dozens of "creepy-looking dolls" as part of the reason for her decision.

>Her monkey (yes, her monkey) once escaped and bit a neighbor child. She caimed that her position on the Superior Court bench ensured her the right to raise violent monkeys without the proper permits AND granted her immunity in any monkey-related incidents.

People were aghast that I was working to get rid of a Democratic, pro-choce, feminist judge, but there comes a time when a public servant's incompetence trumps any one single issue.

Phill Kline is one such public servant.

Dangerous people walk the streets of Kansas because Phill Kline is BAD at his job.

This is the guy who wants to run your health care, a man who doesn't know the difference between a breathalyzer and an inhalator? That's an "inhaler" by the way folks.

Posted by: Mary at June 10, 2008 12:00 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It isn't Obama's job to prescribe nor administer breathalyzers or inhalers.

Does it bother anybody that John McCain doesn't know the difference between Sunnis, Shiites, and Al Quaeda?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EetobKXQsr8

Hal you should know that DU is hardly an unbiased source and people posting there are hardly unbiased themselves and well, if it looks like a duck, etc....

Matter of fact, DU is crazier than Kos.

Hal you should know that DU is hardly an unbiased source

Andy, as with Hisman's complaint that the author of the article about Phill Kline is a "liberal hack", your parry doesn't change the facts presented, which are verifiable. Barack has been an industrious and productive senator thus far in his tenure.

Laura,

I'm well aware it isn't Obama's job to administer breathalyzers and inhalators(his words not mine). Obama wants to make it the government's job, run by people who's medical knowledge is on a par with his own.

That scares me.

Geez Louise, Laura! Do you really think people are going to read such a long article, unless they are already rabid proaborts anyway? Couldn't you just post a link? What a waste of space....

John McCain today:

“We’re going through a process where you get a whole bunch of names, and ya … Well, basically, it’s a Google. You just, you know, what you can find out now on the Internet. It’s remarkable, you know.”

Now that is a bad thing. The leader of the free world not knowing how to find something on the internet...

Here is to McCain and his killing of innocent babies around the world!

Obama wants to make it the government's job, run by people who's medical knowledge is on a par with his own.

Oooh, the specter of government-run health care...how scary! Unfortunately for this canard, the fact is that Medicare is already a government-run health care system, and as such is far more efficient and effective at covering seniors than any privately run, for-profit insurer would be. I'll take government-run health care over no health care, which is what vast numbers of Americans have, any day. It would make our corporations and labor more competitive in the world market, too, not being crippled by obscene health insurance costs.

Hal, I suggest that you re-read my post, I asked what he has done to help the citizens of Illinois, specifically. As a resident of Illinois, I can tell you that he has been, and continues to be, an absentee representative of his constituents.

So Laura, what part of YOU'RE NOT WELCOME HERE do you not understand???!!!

As a resident of Illinois, I can tell you that he has been, and continues to be, an absentee representative of his constituents.

What do you want, Charles? Lots of oink-oink-style pork? His job is to represent us, not necessarily to loot the Treasury for us. I live in Illinois, too, and I am quite happy with the way he has represented me with both his voting record and the legislation he has written and/or sponsored.

So Laura, what part of YOU'RE NOT WELCOME HERE do you not understand???!!!

Posted by: inquiring minds at June 10, 2008 1:22 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Good morning Heather!

Charles, citizens of Illinois are citizens of the United States. Everything Obama does helps everyone. Or are you just looking for more pork?

Is there really anything Illinois specifically needs from Congress that it's not getting.

Ray,

Yes medicaid is indeed gov't run and is costing billions, far more than it was originally estimated. Its also massive paperwork, red tape, and a pain in the rear doctors don't want to be bothered with. You are being funny about it being efficient, right?
Health insurance costs? We live in a society where people sue for spilling hot coffee on themselves, tripping over their own feet, even for being injured while committing a crime, and we cry about insurance costs. Tell it to those dipstick juries who think they're sticking it to the insurance companies when they actually rule in favor of these characters. Just who do you think these costs are passed on to? Bingo!!
Vast numbers of Americans have no health care. Please Ray, tell me where Americans die on our highways and sidewalks because no hospital is available to provide them care. When I worked ER and someone needed care, they got it. We didn't stand there and twiddle our thumbs while someone checked out their finances.
I'll let you in on a little secret Ray. There are Americans who don't give two hoots in hades about taking any responsiblity for their health, who could get insurance but don't bother, and who will spend thousands on cosmetic procedures but whine about paying for a pap smear.
There are free clinics, health depts., doctors who work on a sliding scale, and social service agencies who will refer you to needed services. Financial arrangements can be made with hospitals. You'd be surprised by the way the people who feel no obligation to meet payments set up for them by hospitals but have plenty of money for booze and cigarettes.
Face it Ray, for some people health care is not a priority, just like for some people paying their bills or taking responsiblity for their lives is not a priority.

You'll sell me on gov't run health care when I see Ted Kennedy fly to England for treatment for his brain tumor or Michael Moore, producer of the documentary "Sicko" go to Cuba for treatment for the various medical conditions his morbid obesity will likely cause him.

Excuse me, my 1:37PM post should say "Medicare".

Given that the original topic of this thread was Phill Kline, I think it is interesting that there has been NO acknowledgment or reaction to JoCo Dan's post from a Republican blog that very effectively makes the case that Kline's egotistical decision to run for office is actually BAD for the "pro-life" anti-PP position, in that it splits and weakens Johnson County Republicans, and increases the chances that the Democratic opponent will be elected. Don't any of you Phill Kline fans have anything to say about this?

http://thekansasrepublican.blogspot.com/2008/06/phil-kline-is-not-pro-life-in-fact-hes.html

One commenter there brilliantly states (even if his spelling is a bit off):
"Kline is the Reverand Wright of the Kansas Republican party, we need him out of the spotlight if we really intend on moving forward with an agenda."

Heather! Welcome back! Couldn't stay away, could you?!

As for people complaining about Obama's attendance record since his run for president, thats pretty darn silly, considering every single candidate, including John McCain and Mitt Romney, have spent more time out of their state than in during their presidential ambitions. That's just par for the course. And harping on for slip ups in medical terminology? Is he a doctor? Boy, I wish we were all HALF as perfect as we expect our candidates to be.

Ray - not only that, but so far no one who ripped on the "liberal hack" piece has provided any evidence that any of the things about Kline the author stated were untrue.

This follows along the typical pattern of extremism. Even when you KNOW someone is a total shmuck, you still defend them just because they're on your "side". Not that the other extreme is any less guilty of this. I was amazed by how many people flat out rejected even the POSSIBILITY that the whole "whitey tape" BS came from the Clinton camp, not McCain's.

I'm not active in politics, but I follow it, and this seems to be a huge problem. As that blog post lays out, Kline announced last September that he wasn't going to run. They recruited a candidate, a guy with good experience who's also pro-life. Now, with Kline in the race, everything is up in the air.

In Johnson County, divisive primary fights have not worked for the Republicans in the last few elections. Democrats are fielding better candidates (in some local races, they didn't even field candidates), and I think the chances are pretty good that the Democrat will win.

Planned Parenthood's lawyers can stall out the criminal proceedings past the election, and if the Democractic candidate wins, the whole thing will go away.

Kline has made a huge strategic blunder.

"As that blog post lays out, Kline announced last September that he wasn't going to run. They recruited a candidate, a guy with good experience who's also pro-life. Now, with Kline in the race, everything is up in the air."

JoCo, do you know if the guy they recruited has said anything about this yet? You'd think if the guy has a half way decent record and is also pro-life, they'd prefer him over Kline even if they support Kline - just because of all of the horrible publicity. And it just makes him look like a dope - to say he isn't going to run, let someone else step in, and then change his mind at the VERY last minute. It's hard to imagine how he could get out of this without more egg on his face. I've read several other republican POV blogs who've said similar things - that they're sick of him, and he's making the pro life AND republican causes look bad. Apparently Sam Brownback agrees too.

Amanda,

If that had been John McCain making the slip up we never would have heard the end of the "white haired senator" and "concern" about his "senior moment". And imagine if Bush had said it. In fact Obama's whole talk was discombobulated, the audience pretty much sat in stunned silence not quite able to make sense of what he was saying.

Heather,

Didn't Jill ask YOU to take a break for 2 weeks? Not Laura?

Ok then.

I mean, if you're going to come back with a different moniker, at LEAST act like a different person. You give it away EVERY TIME! Or you could just post as "Heather" and have a mature conversation. But I won't hold my breath.

That "inquiring minds" commenter does not seem to be Heather. I checked the IP addys and they don't match up, so I don't think it's her.

Hal, you said: "Charles, citizens of Illinois are citizens of the United States. Everything Obama does helps everyone. Or are you just looking for more pork? "

Now this is an absurd statement. His job as an ILLIOIS Senator is to represent Illinois' interests as the federal level. His actions since his time in the US Senate have benefited one person, BHO, and the not state which he represents. Show me one thing which he has successfully done as a US Senator that benefits Illinois' residents, disproportionally more, than to the rest of the nation.

Since day one in office, he has used the Illinois tax payer to represent himself and not his constituents.

Ray, you said: “What do you want, Charles? Lots of oink-oink-style pork? His job is to represent us, not necessarily to loot the Treasury for us. I live in Illinois, too, and I am quite happy with the way he has represented me with both his voting record and the legislation he has written and/or sponsored.”

Again, please tell me what has Obama done in the US Senate to benefit the Illinois Resident. How has BHO affected your quality of life as an Illinois resident through his actions on the Senate floor?

John McCain has had plenty of slip ups. I'd like to meet someone who can travel non-stop for a year, doing speeches and interviews non-stop for a year, and not get caught off guard by a question or say something dumb. Like I said, if only half of us were as perfect as we apparently think our presidential candidates should be.

George Bush is a COMPLETELY different issue. He's had 8 years, PLUS a campaign, of consistently stupid remarks. The man is a fool, and no matter who wins in November, our country will start improving the minute that dingbat is gone. I have no doubt in my mind he will go down in history as one of the worst, most corrupt presidents in the history of our nation along with Johnson and Nixon.

Amanda:

I've not yet read any comments from Steve Howe, the other Republican candidate.

I heard Kline on a local talk radio station a couple of weeks ago, and he dropped hints then. It's been a rumor floating around town. He announced at a press conference last night (took no questions), and he had to file by noon today. This seems a little underhanded to me. Why not be more upfront about your intentions?

Amanda,

I know John McCain has had slip-ups, and we sure hear about them. I don't know how many times I have read about the "white-haired senator" commentary on the percentage of men his age who are in "early Alzheimer's" and "concern" about his "senior moments".

Whatever you think of either man, the point is if they had given such a discombobulated speech as Obama had, the media would have had a field day.

Hi Amanda,
Will you be sending your Economic Stimulus check back to the dingbat? :)

"This seems a little underhanded to me. Why not be more upfront about your intentions?"

It is underhanded. But the answer to your question is an easy one: he's a politician. being underhanded and dodging questions is part of their specialty.

=)

Hi anonymous,
Welcome. Pick a name, any name. Please. Thank you.

Again, please tell me what has Obama done in the US Senate to benefit the Illinois Resident. How has BHO affected your quality of life as an Illinois resident through his actions on the Senate floor?
Posted by: Charles at June 10, 2008 3:14 PM

Hey Charles, ask not what your senator can do for you, ask what you can do for your senator.

I'll ask you again, what exactly would you, as an Illinois resident, like from Congress that you're not getting. Besides pork.

Carla -

I didn't get one. I filed as a dependent in 07 because I was still under my parent's insurance until I got the job here in August.

And my parents didn't get one because they make too much money, same with my boyfriend.

And how he expects 600 dollars to stimulate ANYTHING when the average American has ten times that amount in CREDIT CARD DEBT alone, with 5 dollar a gallon gas and food prices increasing at 5 times the rate of inflation, is a complete joke. Putting a bandaid over a cancerous tumor and calling it a cure.

(also, I think that anon was JoCoDan)

My apologies -- that anon comment was me, I thought I had typed in my name.

Sorry, Amanda.

We got a lot more than $600 and used it all to pay off debt!! I hear you about that!!

JoCoDan,
I'll let it go. Just this once. HA

Hal, you mean the Congress with an approval rating of under 20%. Let's see, this will be easier than shooting fish in a barrel.

I would like the following for Illinois (as they represent some real problems here):

I would like my borders secured; and federal laws enforced. The rule of law should mean something in this country, again.

I would like to see English be declared as the nation's language; and do away with the longstanding ESL courses (especially considering that students who speak English are not granted the SSL courses) Enough of the press 1 for English.

I would like to see the federal government pay for more for public transportation in this state, and improved infrastructure.

I would like to see our culture and traditions, which were founded several hundred years ago, protected.

I would like to see the EJ&E purchase, by Canadian National (a foreign company), be vehemently opposed by Obama.

That's just a few but I could go on, and on.

Sadly, Obama has done none of these, which are all under the purview of the Senator.

okay, let's review:

"I would like my borders secured; and federal laws enforced. The rule of law should mean something in this country, again."

I think the "enforcement of laws" is an executive function. Send your complaint to Bush.

"I would like to see English be declared as the nation's language; and do away with the longstanding ESL courses (especially considering that students who speak English are not granted the SSL courses) Enough of the press 1 for English."

Where in the Constitution is Congress given the power, explicit or implied, to declare an official language? Even more importantly, I'm sure you do not want more federal intervention into state and local school board decisions. If ESL is a problem (and I'm not sure it is) take it up with your school board.

"I would like to see the federal government pay for more for public transportation in this state, and improved infrastructure."

Okay, one man's pork is another man's bacon.

"I would like to see our culture and traditions, which were founded several hundred years ago, protected."

How, exactly, is the US Senate supposed to protect culture and traditions? I think you have the US Government confused with the Fox network.

I would like to see the EJ&E purchase, by Canadian National (a foreign company), be vehemently opposed by Obama."

So, you want the Federal Government to block a sale of a willing seller to a willing buyer? Here's an interesting summary:

"There is little admiration for Canadian National Railway Co. in towns along the 198-mile long Elgin, Joliet & Eastern Railway around Chicago. In the western and northwestern suburbs in particular, communities are uniting against CN and its plan to acquire a major portion of EJ&E track and substantially increase the traffic on it.

Among analysts and transportation experts, however, it's difficult to find an organization more highly regarded than the Montreal-based company. Analysts tout CN for its efficiency. Experts say the company’s plan to run freight around Chicago via the EJ&E, which arcs from Waukegan to Joliet to Gary, would help ease severe congestion that's plaguing the nation's no. 1 rail node and shippers coast-to-coast."
http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=88983

Okay hal, let’s review :

No comment on securing the Boarders.

The federal government can take away funding from states where they do not comply with federal laws – in this case, immigration. I suggest you research the seatbelt laws for history on this.

Language – if the government can pass no child left behind, then they can mandate other aspects of the education process.

Infrastructure – Yes, roads and mass transit are serious issues in Illinois. Remove them and the state loses jobs, tax revenue, etc. I sure you want to keep your social programs now don’t ya.

Culture – these are protected be enacting legislation to prevent the erosion of the American way.

Railway – Perhaps what your limited research is lacking is the other side of the situation. CN doesn’t want to compensate the communities for the added infrastructure needed to preserve public safety and the quality of life issues.

"I would like my borders secured; and federal laws enforced. The rule of law should mean something in this country, again."

I wasn't aware that Illinois shared a border with Mexico. Gosh, you learn something new every day.

"I would like to see our culture and traditions, which were founded several hundred years ago, protected. "

So what kind of bill would that be, exactly? And what is "our" culture and tradition? Would that be Italian-American, Irish-American, Asian-American? Would congress just vote to "remain traditional? Would this be a constitutional amendment to protect Charles' Culture and Tradition, and to hell with everyone elses? I'm Lebanese and Scottish. What is "our culture and tradition"? I'd LOVE to know.

Hal covered the others nicely...but I really would like you to explain what exactly Barack Obama was supposed to do about these issues concerning you in Illinois.

(goes to look at a map)

"Culture – these are protected by enacting legislation to prevent the erosion of the American way."

sure, let's hear it for the American Way. I don't know what you're suggesting. Flag Burning? Defense of Marriage? Mandatory loyalty oaths?

As for taking away funding from states who don't follow DC's mandates, I think that has been a terrible practice. Seatbelts, drinking age, speed limits, these should all be state issues.

My comment on securing the3 Boarders is that the boarders are in place and the executive branch should enforce them.

NCLB should never have been passed. Bad idea badly implemented.

Infrastructure, I gave you that one. Obama has been a failure at that I guess. Would Keyes have been better?

"Language – if the government can pass no child left behind, then they can mandate other aspects of the education process."

Because NCLB was such a rip roaring success? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA....yeah. I think there's been pretty much bipartisan, across the board acceptance by anyone who didn't create that nonsense that it has been a dismal failure. Even some of the most conservative, Bush backing posters on the board agree. In fact, if ONE good thing came out of that, its that liberals and conservatives alike can agree it was a dismal failure. Next?

"Culture – these are protected be enacting legislation to prevent the erosion of the American way."

Name one. Go ahead. Write a bill that will prevent the erosion of the "American Way".

However Hal, CN is trying to get out of paying for grade crossing improvements that would compensate for the additional rail traffic which disrupts everyday life. Have you read if Obama supports the sale with or without making CN share the cost of those improvements?

Hey Elizabeth, MK, etc....

I need your motherly advice.

I've been planning a baby shower for my coworker who is expecting twins in August. It was going to be a surprise, I've been talking to her husband, getting everything set... but today she and I were talking, and she told me that because it was twins and so much could go wrong between now and late August, she was feeling very superstitious. I know in some cultures, having a shower IS one of those big superstitions, so now I'm all worried.

Here are my options...

do it anyway - her husband thought it was a good idea, and he should know?

tell her about it, so it won't be a surprise, but let her decide if she wants to have one or not?

wait until the babies are born and have a party for her then?

just have everyone come over for a BBQ and don't call it a shower ?

I'd hate to hijack this thread anymore by a drawn out discussion of a railway sale in Illinois.

Let me just say to end the dispute: I hope Obama take a real leadership role in this CN deal.

Amanda:

C,mon.....

Read the article.

The slant is Liberal.

Hi again Amanda,

Tell her about the shower so maybe she can register and ask her if she would rather have it before or after the twinsies come? Yay twins!!

HisMan, I'm granting you that the SLANT is liberal, but the slant doesn't make the FACTS less true.

Good idea Carla, thank you! =)

Amanda:

That's fair, thanks.

Heather,

Didn't Jill ask YOU to take a break for 2 weeks? Not Laura?

Ok then.

I mean, if you're going to come back with a different moniker, at LEAST act like a different person. You give it away EVERY TIME! Or you could just post as "Heather" and have a mature conversation. But I won't hold my breath.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at June 10, 2008 3:03 PM
-------------

That "inquiring minds" commenter does not seem to be Heather. I checked the IP addys and they don't match up, so I don't think it's her.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at June 10, 2008 3:08 PM
--------------

hmmmmm....I suppose a 2-week "cooling off" period would be in order here. I hear it helps with those who "ASSume" too much!

oooooooohh...or a publically-stated apology???

Laura???

Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma)????

Amanda????

**holding breath**

To those who wrongly assumed "inquiring minds" was Heather. You folks made the wrong assumption, it is not Heather. I have heard from her and she assures me she is honoring Jill's request not to post and gave me her permission to post that fact.

I must admit I made a similar mistake when HisPhony posted as HisMan and I had to apologize to HisMan.

JlM: I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

Mary: Thanks for your post about our mutual friend Heather.

Carrie,

My pleasure. We all, and that certainly includes me, have made the wrong assumptions or misread people's posts on occasion. I would think an apology to Heather is in order.

Amanda, you said, “I wasn't aware that Illinois shared a border with Mexico. Gosh, you learn something new every day.” I guess it’s too difficult for you to understand that certain cities, ones where federal laws are not enforced (sanctuary cities) become pockets of illegal immigration -- even inland.

Amanda, you said: “So what kind of bill would that be, exactly? And what is "our" culture and tradition? Would that be Italian-American, Irish-American, Asian-American? Would congress just vote to "remain traditional? Would this be a constitutional amendment to protect Charles' Culture and Tradition, and to hell with everyone elses? I'm Lebanese and Scottish. What is "our culture and tradition"? I'd LOVE to know.” And Hal, you said: “sure, let's hear it for the American Way. I don't know what you're suggesting. Flag Burning? Defense of Marriage? Mandatory loyalty oaths?” Those traditions would be those by which the founding fathers created this nation on the basis of. America’s identity is based on culture and creed. Beyond that we can define ourselves based on liberty, equality, democracy, constitutionalism, liberalism, limited government, private enterprise. These are what is known as the American Creed. These are what define us. These are what explicitly define our nation in it’s governing documents, yet, we seem to move further away from these, and it’s sad.

Hal, you said: “As for taking away funding from states who don't follow DC's mandates, I think that has been a terrible practice. Seatbelts, drinking age, speed limits, these should all be state issues.” Then perhaps the states should take on the funfing for their own infrastructure -- solely.

Hal, you said: “NCLB should never have been passed. Bad idea badly implemented.” I was not using this as an example of a great program, but just to illustrate a point that the federal government can mandate changes in education. Another example of this is Title 9.
Amanda, please see the above for your comment on NCLB, as well.

Carrie,
Sad, but hopefully not true!

Mary,
I agree.

Just a thought....maybe Jill could publish who the commenter "inquiring minds" really was, kindof like how she published the anon posts were Heather?

I don't know...seems only fair at this point, and would surely clear the air!

Apologize to who JLM?

Or did you miss the comment where Heather called me a mini-me of MK's? Where's MY apology?

If it wasn't her, I'd apologize..but I guess you missed those random anonymous postings about how Jill should take her site back. And THAT was Heather. And Heather is also the only one for the most part who only leaves comments telling Laura to leave and that she's been banned, blah, blah, blah.

Eh, but I don't really care..she wants to walk around and call people names like she does, I can get down with the best of them.

Mary,

If it really wasn't her, I have no problem with a public apology. Here it goes: Heather, if that inquiring minds post wasn't you, I apologize for thinking that it was.

Or did you miss the comment where Heather called me a mini-me of MK's? Where's MY apology?

#1: You were FINE with being mk's "mini-me". Are you now saying it's an insult?

#2. Per your post, which I'm sure you're aware of: Didn't Jill ask YOU to take a break for 2 weeks? Not Laura?

Ok then.

Maybe you'll have to wait 13 more days for an apology.

I'm fine with it, sure. But Heather meant it as an insult and I think you and I both know that. I just turned it around on her because the smartA** in me just couldn't resist. :)

You may be assuming again, Elizabeth. Remember, it's hard to read a "tone" on the internet. Both you and mk were delighted with the comment. Remember that and let it be.

Please. I was not born yesterday, and I can tell when someone is trying to insult me.

And I'm telling you what my "tone" was in response to what Heather said with her mini-MK comment. I was not "delighted" I was being a smarta** to Heather. I was also trying to compliment MK because Heather had been dogging on her recently and I found it to be an unfair assessment of MK. So I thought I would say something nice and honest. MK is awesome and I would love to be as GREAT of a lady as she is. (Especially in terms of our similar Catholic beliefs because she is a GREAT Catholic, and I hope to continue to grow in my faith as she has.)

So, you WERE insulted and were disingenuous with your posts to mk.

Nice, but whatever.

good night!

No, JLM..read this verrrrry carefully.

While I knew Heather was TRYING to insult me, I flipped it on her. Heather's ATTEMPT at insulting me is not the same thing as me ACTUALLY being insulted by her comment.

Just because *I* wasn't insulted doesn't mean she wasn't TRYING to be insulting. I just flipped it on her in an effort to annoy her. Get it yet?

I think MK is a great woman, but I have learned in this life that I can never be anyone but myself. I can only learn from MK, but I can never *try* to be like her. I can take things from her and incorporate them into who *I* am but I still remain me.

Heather's attempt at calling me a mini-MK was an insult because she was implying that I can not think for myself and I am just trying to be LIKE MK. She basically tried to call me an idiot. But like I said, I flipped it on her and turned it into something nice. That doesn't take away from the rudeness of the actual comment, though. I wasn't at all *delighted* that she said that, however. It's called sarcasm. But the sarcasm was not directed at MK, it was directed at Heather.

I hope this clears that up.

Sure.

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1769150&cp=&pg=2&sr=1&origkw=shovel&kw=shovel&parentPage=search&searchId=28767218143

LOL, whatev, JLM. I'm out.

Remember the grandfather in Moonstruck?

I'm so confused! :)

Elizabeth,

Hopefully if Heather returns to this site differences can be settled.
I also think highly of MK and you as well.

You should have seen the big crow I had to eat when I assumed HisPhony was HisMan!

Here's a link to that scene in Moonstruck. I love this movie!
SPOILER ALERT! If you haven't seen the movie, rent it first!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt6_qkmkmWs&feature=related

JLM,

If you have and issue with the whole Heather thing, I'd suggest you take it up with Jill. Where is all this animosity coming from?

Heather behaved poorly last week. Jill saw it and made a call.

Will this never be put to rest?

Mary,
I'm glad that Heather is emailing you. I can't think of anyone more level headed to share her thoughts with.

I have no hard feelings towards her...I like Heather. I just think she doesn't quite get what this site is all about. And I think her feelings were hurt. While that saddens me, neither or nor Jill are about to compromise the integrity of this site so spare her feelings. I hope she can come to accept that there is goal on this site...to change hearts and minds...and not just to vent our prolife stance.

This is not MY agenda, it is Jill's too. Certainly, we are free to express ourselves, but not at the price of alienating those we are hoping to reach.

This whole thing has been going on since February and I'm growing tired of it.

Heather has my email and can discuss this with me privately any time she wants.

Do Carrie, JLM and Heather actually believe that by beating a dead horse, Jill and I are suddenly going to "wake up" and say, "Oh you guys have been right all along! We're going to completely change the tone of this website and do it your way from now on"?

There are thousands of websites out there that are cat and dog fights on the pro life issue. If people want to insult and bait each other they should choose a different site to do it on.

This site is about communication and relationships. That's not going to change as long as Jills name is on it, or as long as I am moderating.

Heather,

Sorry that everyone assumed that was you. It's understandable given the anonymous posts last week, but fair is fair and it should have been checked before just attacking you.

E,

I love you too.

"George Bush is a COMPLETELY different issue. He's had 8 years, PLUS a campaign, of consistently stupid remarks. The man is a fool, and no matter who wins in November, our country will start improving the minute that dingbat is gone."

You're lucky to have Bush as president. That dingbat hasn't allowed another attack on our soil since 9/11, who would've thought.

I used that 600 dollars to pay some bills. You liberals always think the government can put it to better use when they usually waste it away.

Btw Amanda, did you check-oof on the Massachusetts tax returns to pay the higher rate? it was optional. I know John Kerry didn't.

"That dingbat hasn't allowed another attack on our soil since 9/11, who would've thought."

Yeah, and what president wouldn't have gone in to Afghanistan after 9/11? The difference being, if the president was NOT a dingbat, we would have kept the pressure in Afghanistan and on Al Qaida instead of letting that slip to the back burner and putting all of our resources in to a BS "threat" in Iraq. Now Al Qaida AND the Taliban are regaining strength. Its only a matter of time. And he's still GOOOOOOD buddies with the Saudis - the home country of nearly all of the 9/11 terrorists, AND the source of funding for terrorism all over the globe.

As for taxes, I always pay the higher rate, because I don't like owing a lot at the end of the year. I owed the state 22 dollars this year. haha.

JLM,

If you have and issue with the whole Heather thing, I'd suggest you take it up with Jill. Where is all this animosity coming from?

Issue with the “whole Heather thing”? If you read my posts, you’ll see that I had an issue with the false accusations AGAINST Heather. You & Elizabeth have made it more than clear on several occasions that you will “call someone on it” when they are in the wrong. I did the same. Am I not allowed? Is this a “new rule” you’re comprising just for me? Please advise.

The “animosity” is only in YOUR head. I have no animosity. Again, I was just “calling people out” on their false accusations.

Heather behaved poorly last week. Jill saw it and made a call.

Again, no issue with Jill’s call…it’s HER site. I’m aware.

Will this never be put to rest?

If you allow it to, it will. But by butting in to a conversation that has already ended, it may not. Just a suggestion.

Mary,
I'm glad that Heather is emailing you. I can't think of anyone more level headed to share her thoughts with.

I have no hard feelings towards her...I like Heather. I just think she doesn't quite get what this site is all about. And I think her feelings were hurt. While that saddens me, neither or nor Jill are about to compromise the integrity of this site so spare her feelings. I hope she can come to accept that there is goal on this site...to change hearts and minds...and not just to vent our prolife stance.

This is not MY agenda, it is Jill's too. Certainly, we are free to express ourselves, but not at the price of alienating those we are hoping to reach.

This whole thing has been going on since February and I'm growing tired of it.

Huh? Obviously you have MAJOR issues with letting things go. Please move on as the rest of us have, please, and I can assure you that the “animosity” will fade as well.

Heather has my email and can discuss this with me privately any time she wants.

As you can do as well.

Do Carrie, JLM and Heather actually believe that by beating a dead horse, Jill and I are suddenly going to "wake up" and say, "Oh you guys have been right all along! We're going to completely change the tone of this website and do it your way from now on"?

Beating a dead horse? Come on, mk…Really…I, Carrie, and Mary all posted what we thought would be appropriate apology to Heather for false accusations.

Funny (not really) how you just call me & Carrie out on it, when Mary asked as well. Again…animosity is in YOUR head…not mine. The same with Elizabeth. I suggested an apology as well as Mary did. Elizabeth asked me “apologize to who?”, with an argument that followed, and then in that SAME POST, per Mary’s request, apologized. Talk about animosity! It’s not coming from me. It’s coming from you guys.

Please make up your mind and let us all in on it, ok? At one point, you say that ALL voices are important in the fight for life. At another, you’re saying that only the method YOU and Jill approve of is important. Honestly, I’m confused. May I suggest a “rules of the game list” for pro-lifers so we can all be let in on the way you want things done? I can’t think of one time I have EVER called anyone a name, mk. I’m passionate in my fight for life, but please tell me how “my way” if I even have one, is “wrong”. If I can mold my personality to fit this site, I will do it. I’m sure you and Jill’s way is the best. You guys are experts in the “field”. However, after I review your list to me on how I am to play your game, and I am not able to mold my personality accordingly, I will humbly leave the site. I’m not here to make waves, mk…I’m here to save lives.

There are thousands of websites out there that are cat and dog fights on the pro life issue. If people want to insult and bait each other they should choose a different site to do it on.

Bait??? Like YOU did to me & Bethany last week? Your post had NOTHING at all to do with the topic at hand. You have both of our e-mail addresses…could have done that privately, no? Was this post “bait”, mk? Again, the conversation ended last evening. I really have no idea why you would bring it back to life again.

This site is about communication and relationships. That's not going to change as long as Jills name is on it, or as long as I am moderating.

I’m fine with that, and I agree. Again, please provide the method of communication YOU would like each and every pro-lifer to use so we can meet your needs. It would be much appreciated.

Heather,

Sorry that everyone assumed that was you. It's understandable given the anonymous posts last week, but fair is fair and it should have been checked before just attacking you.

I agree. That was nice of you to post that.

Did anyone watch the Moonstruck video yet?

Amanda,

So then it’s okay with you that Sadam would still be in power. That he would be fostering terrorism in that nation. That he would foster en environment where terrorists, like Al Qaida, could have sanctuary. That he would still be killing 1000’s of innocent Iraqi’s every year. That he would continue to fire at our Aircraft patrolling the region. That he would be continuing to acquiring WMD. If that’s okay with you, please let me know.

I also think you are mistaking paying a higher rate with the number of exemptions you claim each year -- and therefore are left at the end of the year with a credit position.

JLM,

First of all I entered the conversation because it involved me.

But by butting in to a conversation that has already ended, it may not. Just a suggestion.
*
Conversations end when everyone has spoken their peace and not when you say Nice, but whatever.
*
good night!
Posted by: JLM at June 10, 2008 10:47 PM

Please make up your mind and let us all in on it, ok? At one point, you say that ALL voices are important in the fight for life. At another, you’re saying that only the method YOU and Jill approve of is important. Honestly, I’m confused. May I suggest a “rules of the game list” for pro-lifers so we can all be let in on the way you want things done?

The rules are listed...
One of them includes not inciting other posters. Something Heather did consistenly last week. And something that I think your nasty "link" was meant to do.

And this is what I would call baiting...

oooooooohh...or a publically-stated apology???
Laura???
Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma)????
Amanda????
**holding breath**
Posted by: JLM at June 10, 2008 7:48 PM

As for your reference to me baiting you and Bethany, if you are referring to my post about Peter and the Keys...that wasn't baiting. I was way excited when I heard that on the radio, and actually thought that in a small way we could continue our previous discussion. You didn't reply so I figured that you were no longer interested. It certainly wasn't meant to instigate an argument. And the fact that you think it was is what I mean by animosity.

I thoroughly enjoyed (as I've stated NUMEROUS times, that long, long thread...and learned more than I thought was possible in that 2 weeks) so no, I was not "baiting" you or Bethany.

If you are not referring to that post, I have no idea what you are referring to, as I can't remember anything else that I have directed towards the two of you.

Funny (not really) how you just call me & Carrie out on it

I called you and Carrie out on it because you were being snotty, while Mary said the same things in a way that did not put anyone on the defensive. That is also probably why Elizabeth responded to her and not to you.

As for Heather calling Elizabeth a mini-me? Are you telling me that you honestly do NOT believe that that was meant as an insult to both me AND Elizabeth??? Because I won't believe you.

As for beating a dead horse...Heather started up again...not me. Then just before you told me to mind my own business and stay out of other peoples conversations, you chose to butt into one that wasn't being addressed to you...which is fine, that's what we do here, but calling me out on it, when you are doing it yourself is a bit hypocritical.

Again, please provide the method of communication YOU would like each and every pro-lifer to use so we can meet your needs. It would be much appreciated.

Perhaps you don't hear yourself and actually don't realize how very sarcastic you sound...the rules of conduct are posted on the right hand side of the page. If you're confused by them, I will take you through them one by one.

And lastly...

It’s coming from you guys.

I have not responded once with anger or meanness through this whole thing, since back in February, so how you can say that this is coming from me, is beyond me.

I have let Heather know that she is welcome back here, but that she can't attack the people here. I've have expressed that I understand how she feels and that it saddens me that she has left.

What more would you like me to do? You, Heather and to a lesser degree Carrie, are the ones that keeps making snide remarks, letting me know that this is far from over, and I'm tired.

I have not brought up the issue since the end of it in February and until Heather started in, I had no intention of bringing it up again. I wish it would just go away.

The whole thing upset me more than I can say. I like you, I like Carrie and I like Heather. But sometimes it's made a little difficult.

I do apologize if I came down too hard on any of you. That is not my intent. I wish everyone would come back, including Hooves, and we could all just get along. I'm at a loss as to how to make things better. I really am.

Janet,

I LOVE MOONSTRUCK! One of my top ten fav movies of all time...

Old man, you give that dog one more bite of my food and I'll kick you til your dead!

MK, 1:18 p.m.

You have so much patience with people, it is really amazing. But, that's why you're a mod, and I am not. :sniffles:

Seriously though, JLM, after you posted that link, I could just tell you weren't so much interested in having an actual conversation as you were being rude, so I cut it off there.

Ahhhh E,

Not sooooo patient. I just balled out Johnny for buggin' me! I try very hard to put myself in other peoples places and see it from their side. I still might not agree, but at least I'm "acting" and not "reacting"...but trust me, it don't always work out so good. There was a bit o' "reactin'" goin' on in my first response to JLM.

Yes, I understand, MK. I don't blame you..I was a little miffed myself when I spent all that time trying to explain it to her, and she posted that stupid link. How rude. That's why I just lef the "conversation." I wanted to avoid saying something REAL obnoxious and having to apologize later. See, I'm at least pretending to be an adult sometimes.

E,

See, I'm at least pretending to be an adult sometimes.

Well you sure had me fooled!

Jasper, there is no reason to believe that GW Bush deserves any credit at all for the absence of spectacular terrorist attacks in the USA after 9-11. Especially, there is no reason to beleive that deposing Saddam Hussein had anything to do with it.

Under GWBush, the number of Saudi-Arabian students studying in the USA has increased many-fold.

I do apologize if I came down too hard on any of you. That is not my intent. I wish everyone would come back, including Hooves, and we could all just get along. I'm at a loss as to how to make things better. I really am.

Posted by: mk at June 11, 2008 1:18 PM

You have GOT to be kidding me.....

Hooves,

Which part do you think I'm kidding about?

Oh man, people just won't let it diiiiiieeee...

:slams head into keyboard:

Owww, I think I'm going to need stitches again.

lol Elizabeth.

I know right. Wasn't it JLM that said I had no business entering a conversation that wasn't with me and that had apparently ended?

I give up! Y'all win! Take whatever it is you want.

I was accused of being the one harboring animosity...I've apologized, explained, re explained, re apologized...I have never received an apology, been called a control freak, accused of hijacking Jills site...I still don't what it is I did except my job. But there you have...you can please some of the people...

Again, girls, I'm sorry that you are still harboring bad feelings, and I'm sorry that I am the cause of them. There really isn't anything more I can do...

You really shouldn't be apologizing to people who obviously haven't graduated high school yet, MK.

You really shouldn't be apologizing to people who obviously haven't graduated high school yet, MK.

And mk wonders why I say she's got to be kidding that I'd want to come back and play....

That was me.

mk: I think punitive damages are in order also. Maybe (divide up) 5% of your annual salary? :(

I'm with you, mk. Enough is enough.

Oh man, people just won't let it diiiiiieeee...

:slams head into keyboard:

Owww, I think I'm going to need stitches again.

Posted by: Elizabeth at June 12, 2008 8:12 PM

My name was brought up out of nowhere....I don't see where your comment is warrented, and I don't see where you have any reason to complain about anything I've said on this thread or frankly this entire board for weeks. If you don't want my comments folks, then leave me out of your conversations....

Oh man, people just won't let it diiiiiieeee...

:slams head into keyboard:

Owww, I think I'm going to need stitches again.

Posted by: Elizabeth at June 12, 2008 8:12 PM

My name was brought up out of nowhere....I don't see where your comment is warrented, and I don't see where you have any reason to complain about anything I've said on this thread or frankly this entire board for weeks. If you don't want my comments folks, then leave me out of your conversations....

Hooves,

I would address your comments but this whole drama has really started to reach a juvenile level. So I'm done with it.

Hooves,

My name was brought up out of nowhere....I don't see where your comment is warrented, and I don't see where you have any reason to complain about anything I've said on this thread or frankly this entire board for weeks.

Where did I complain about you? I said I wished you'd come back!

If I didn't want your comments, why would I say this?

I say I wish you'd come back and your response was...."You have GOT to be kidding me.....

I assume that's what Elizabeth was referring to when she suggested juvenile behavior. An unnecessary comment to be sure, but for heavens sake...All I said was that I wish you'd come Back!!!!

If you don't want my comments folks, then leave me out of your conversations....

That statement doesn't even make sense. I just said that I wished you come back and comment and you respond with that? Obviously, your name came up PRECISELY because I DO want your comments.

I'm starting to think I'm nuts. I must be missing something. Was there a conversation that I don't know about somewhere?

Hi MK,

I only came back to defend Heather. My comment "don't hold your breath" was actually not directed at you. I will grant you that it was sarcastic in nature. I came back to defend Heather because I do not agree with how the situation with her was handled. I feel that it should have happened via email. It is Jill's blog and she has every right to handle this the way she sees fit. Just as it is my right to disagree. Heather has been a poster here for a long time. Friends are supposed to love one another unconditionally. If you and Jill had an issue with what Heather was doing, then perhaps you should have taken another route. I feel it was wrong to humiliate her that way. Even if you view her behavior as wrong, as the saying goes, two wrongs do not make a right.
Regarding the agrument that occured this winter, my frustration was that my words were twisted around. I NEVER said that all prochoicers were monsters. I just don't agree with the idea that there is only one way to deal with prochoicers and that there is only one way to be a prolifer. I think that is the impression that we are getting from you. I don't think the "soft" approach is the only approach that is effective. Prochoicers are a varied group, just as prolifers are. What works with one prochoicer may not work with another. That's why the prolife movement needs all types of voices. As I have said many times, I used to be prochoice. I was prochoice for over 15 years. I interacted with alot of prochoicers in college and even some that we would consider proabort. I can tell you that the blunt and direct approach will work in some cases. A person can be blunt and direct without swearing or insulting. I have rarely insulted when I have posted. I will cop to being sarcastic. That's me though.

Sometimes the most loving thing is "tough love". It means not enabling the person that you care about and that you want to help. Sometimes, people have to see and feel the consequences of their actions/opinions. There have been two assaults this spring against prolifers in my area and one implied death threat. I don't put my safety on the line at least once a week to then come on a blog to tell prochoicers that their support for abortion no big deal. I will not minimize the horrors of abortion for them, to enable them to feel comfortable with their decision to be prochoice.

An example of what I view as enabling is when no one calls out the couple of prochoicers who say "if only prolifers would piss honey,crap mint chocolate chip ice cream, fart butterflies, and sneeze perfume, then I would become prolife." I think you know who I am referring to. That is a total cop-out and they need to be told that. It can be done without insulting.

Please note that no where did I say that we should be insulting people. I just don't agree that there is one way to reach prochoicers and I don't agree that there is one way to be a prolifer. There should be room for both ways.

I didn't start posting here with an agenda to convert people. I just wanted to get to know people and learn more about prolife issues. I was very sorry to hear that your son has bi-polar disease. I know that you must be very worried about his future. Our situations with our sons aren't that different actually. I find it helps to take things one day at a time.

I didn't come back to stir things up.

Goodbye, Carrie

Carrie,

Finally! What a breath of fresh air!

Thank you, thank you, thank you for actually telling me what's on your mind.

First,
Jill has emailed Heather in the past on a couple of occasions, but obviously it didn't have any effect.
We actually contemplated doing this by email, but we certainly didn't email Laura when we banned her.

Heathers posts were purposely trying to get a rise out of everyone. She kept making cryptic remarks and then not expounding which is very frustrating. I think she was embarrassing herself. We finally got rid of TR whose only purpose was to stir up trouble and while that is not Heathers usual modus operandi, it was becoming increasingly clear that it was her new one.

I really do like Heather. As you say, she could have emailed me with her grievances instead of calling me a turncoat publicly, but she chose to express herself her on Jills.

As for not letting each prolifer do it their own way...you are right. We are not all cookie cutters of each other. That thing back in February wasn't about any single persons particular method of debate, it was about a group of people ganging up on the prochoicers and cutting off all means of true communication. It wasn't just that one day, but was building for a couple of weeks.

Heather can be, probably without meaning to, very inciteful. JLM can be quite sarcastic and condescending (as can we all) and Hooves can cut a person down in two words or less. All of which are fine if they are one on one, but it got to be all of you as a group and I felt that that was unfair.

If SoMG, Hal, Edyt and Reality had all gotten together and formed a united force, cornering pro lifers as a single unit, I would have called them out too.

I understand that your philosophy when you came to this site wasn't the same as mine. And truthfully it doesn't have to be, as long as you respect what Jill and I have chosen as our goal.

I really, really like you Carrie and I think you have so much to add to this site. I am honestly, deeply upset by this whole turn of events.

I agree that we should be able to call pro choicers to task when we see the flaws in their argument. There would be no point to this website if we were all holding hands and singing Kumbaya.

I really agree, tho, that it can and must, be done without insults.

I don't think, despite my calling attention to the situation, that I have ever resorted to insults. I have tried to be honest without attacking, forthright without being accusing.

I wish with all my heart that you'd come back and post regularly. I know I've said that I have a large investment in the prochoicers on this site, but I also have an investment in the prolifers.

I think what saddens me most is that instead of simply talking this out, it has been festering and comes out in devious and cryptic remarks that leave me feeling as if I've missed something.

Now, you've done it, I'm crying.

I really appreciate that you have openly addressed me so that we might finally be able to make some peace.

I must have handled this wrong from the beginning because had I done a better job, it wouldn't be going on this long.

I don't know...I do the best I can, and if I failed you guys, I am truly sorry.

Please forgive me.

MK: I am ready to let it go. I probably won't post, but I am over it now that I have had my say and felt that I have been heard. Thanks for your response. And PLEASE, if a prochoicer says that they would become prolife if us prolifers started farting butterflies, PLEASE tell them that it is a cop-out. (joking)

Carrie,

LOL.. I remember that thread...wasn't it Amanda? As I recall a lot of people did call her on it. I think I came to that one late in the game, and figured it had all been said. Sometimes I don't jump in for exactly the reasons I stated above...don't want to seem like we're ganging up on people.

I'm so very grateful to you. This thing has bothered me so much, for so long.

I guess it seems sometimes like I AM condoning some prochoice opinions, but I honestly think that every prochoicer here knows exactly how I feel, and that there is no "compromising" on my view of abortion. My approach might be "softer" than others, but my conviction is every bit as strong.

I'll be going to the Face the Truth Tour in July.
So I'm no wimp when it comes to abortion.

I remember when Amanda (and Midnite, Rae, Alyssa) first came here. They were rabid, and I mean rabid, prochoicers. And snarky? They were the very definition of snarky! But they have blossomed into women since them, and I would no longer call them "rabid" prochoicers. From on demand to first three months with good reason and I wish there weren't any at all...which isn't a conversion, but it is a step.

I know what you mean about putting your life on the line, too. I've stood out in front of the clinics for three years now. But so much of that behavior comes from prochoicers being on the defensive before words are even exchanged. I try to break through that wall of anger before I even attempt conversation. I know Heather says I have changed, but if you go back and read my stuff since November Feb. 2007, you'll see I've been pretty consistent in my approach. Sometimes my reproaches are stronger than others, because I try to guage who I'm talking to. If I feel that they are being open, I talk. If I feel they are being jerks just to get a reaction, I can be as biting as the next guy. This is probably why you guys got confused. My approach varies. I just feel very protective of my first acquaintances here. And Amanda was someone that I had been deliberating with for a long time. It's the mama bear thing again.

I realize there was also some confusion about which prochoicers I am harsher on...Like TR was fair game, but Amanda was off limits. That's because I believe that Amanda is sincere in her reasons for being here, while I think TR was a troll. I have all the patience in the world if I think you're mind and heart are open, but when you come here JUST to start trouble...well, the mama bear comes out in me.

And I know too, that I don't always live up to my own ideals. I can be quite sarcastic myself. But I try. I really do.

Anywho, I respect your not posting here anymore, tho if you change your mind, it will bring a huge smile to my face. Like I said, I think you brought a great deal to the table. And I wish you'd bring more...if you change your mind...well, you know!

Peace my Friend,
Keep up the good fight,
MK

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