Very sad but I have to question the part of the story where the girlfriend held her hand during the procedure...I have never heard of this happening, every clinic I know of will not allow anyone back to the procedure room. It's very risky to allow someone other than staff to be there at the time the babies lives are taken because of complications that could occur and then you have a witness. I was just told it was for "safty" reasons why no one is allowed with the women...yeah right..

I have been a witness to many stories and have never heard of this.

What's amazing is that Jill writes about it as a "poor coerced woman" story - which is denied within the article itself, and totally misses the "another prolifer shows his hypocrisy" moral - if the story is true.

SoMG,

..as the first one to post a comment to this sad entry...why would you respond with an off-topic comment?

As to Erickson's "he told her that because of work he couldn't stay, she said...."

...guy has to be a spineless piece of s**t ...he had the guts to drive her to an abortion clinic but didn't have the nerve to be with her when their baby is killed??

Ann Marie -

If they just administered RU 486, they would have let a friend stay with her. If it was surgical, they wouldn't have - it's illegal for sterile and HIPAA reasons.

sorry... failing to see where anyone was coerced here.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 24, 2008 10:33 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EXACTLY!

She CHOSE to have an abortion for the same reasons most women do: financial burden and shaky relationship.

As for Mike Ericson, he knows what ALL Republican Pro-lifers know:

"The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion"

When the Anti-Choice Choose

By Joyce Arthur

Copyright © September, 2000

Abortion is a highly personal decision that many women are sure they'll never have to think about until they're suddenly faced with an unexpected pregnancy. But this can happen to anyone, including women who are strongly anti-choice. So what does an anti-choice woman do when she experiences an unwanted pregnancy herself? Often, she will grin and bear it, so to speak, but frequently, she opts for the solution she would deny to other women -- abortion.

In the spring of 2000, I collected the following anecdotes directly from abortion doctors and other clinic staff in North America, Australia, and Europe. The stories are presented in the providers' own words, with minor editing for grammar, clarity, and brevity. Names have been omitted to protect privacy.

"I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion, about three years ago. During her whole stay at the clinic, we felt that she was not quite right, but there were no real warning bells. She insisted that the abortion was her idea and assured us that all was OK. She went through the procedure very smoothly and was discharged with no problems. A quite routine operation. Next morning she was with her mother and several school mates in front of the clinic with the usual anti posters and chants. It appears that she got the abortion she needed and still displayed the appropriate anti views expected of her by her parents, teachers, and peers." (Physician, Australia)

"I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)

"In 1990, in the Boston area, Operation Rescue and other groups were regularly blockading the clinics, and many of us went every Saturday morning for months to help women and staff get in. As a result, we knew many of the 'antis' by face. One morning, a woman who had been a regular 'sidewalk counselor' went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. 'I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!' she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to 'murder their babies.'" (Clinic escort, Massachusetts)

"We too have seen our share of anti-choice women, ones the counselors usually grit their teeth over. Just last week a woman announced loudly enough for all to hear in the recovery room, that she thought abortion should be illegal. Amazingly, this was her second abortion within the last few months, having gotten pregnant again within a month of the first abortion. The nurse handled it by talking about all the carnage that went on before abortion was legalized and how fortunate she was to be receiving safe, professional care. However, this young woman continued to insist it was wrong and should be made illegal. Finally the nurse said, 'Well, I guess we won't be seeing you here again, not that you're not welcome.' Later on, another patient who had overheard this exchange thanked the nurse for her remarks." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

"We saw a woman recently who after four attempts and many hours of counseling both at the hospital and our clinic, finally, calmly and uneventfully, had her abortion. Four months later, she called me on Christmas Eve to tell me that she was not and never was pro-choice and that we failed to recognize that she was clinically depressed at the time of her abortion. The purpose of her call was to chastise me for not sending her off to the psych unit instead of the procedure room." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

"Recently, we had a patient who had given a history of being a 'pro-life' activist, but who had decided to have an abortion. She was pleasant to me and our initial discussion was mutually respectful. Later, she told someone on my staff that she thought abortion is murder, that she is a murderer, and that she is murdering her baby. So before doing her procedure, I asked her if she thought abortion is murder -- the answer was yes. I asked her if she thought I am a murderer, and if she thought I would be murdering her baby, and she said yes. But murder is a crime, and murderers are executed. Is this a crime? Well, it should be, she said. At that point, she became angry and hostile, and the summary of the conversation was that she regarded me as an abortion-dispensing machine, and how dare I ask her what she thinks. After explaining to her that I do not perform abortions for people who think I am a murderer or people who are angry at me, I declined to provide her with medical care. I do not know whether she found someone else to do her abortion." (Physician, Colorado)

"In 1973, after Roe v. Wade, abortion became legal but had to be performed in a hospital. That of course was changed later. For the first 'legal abortion day' I had scheduled five procedures. While scrubbing between cases, I was accosted by the Chief of the OB/Gyn service. He asked me, 'How many children are you going to kill today?' My response, out of anger, was a familiar vulgar retort. About three months later, this born-again Christian called me to explain that he was against abortion but his daughter was only a junior in high school and was too young to have a baby and he was also afraid that if she did have a baby she would not want to put it up for adoption. I told him he did not need to explain the situation to me. 'All I need to know', I said, 'is that SHE wants an abortion.' Two years later I performed a second abortion on her during her college break. She thanked me and pleaded, 'Please don't tell my dad, he is still anti-abortion.'" (Physician, Washington State)

"The sister of a Dutch bishop in Limburg once visited the abortion clinic in Beek where I used to work in the seventies. After entering the full waiting room she said to me, 'My dear Lord, what are all those young girls doing here?' 'Same as you', I replied. 'Dirty little dames,' she said." (Physician, The Netherlands)

"I had a patient about ten years ago who traveled up to New York City from South Carolina for an abortion. I asked her why she went such a long way to get the procedure. Her answer was that she was a member of a church group that didn't believe in abortion and she didn't want anyone to know she was having one. She planned to return to the group when she went back to South Carolina." (Physician, New York)

"I once had a German client who greatly thanked me at the door, leaving after a difficult 22-week abortion. With a gleaming smile, she added: 'Und doch sind Sie ein Mörderer.' ('And you're still a murderer.')" (Physician, The Netherlands)

"My first encounter with this phenomenon came when I was doing a 2-week follow-up at a family planning clinic. The woman's anti-choice values spoke indirectly through her expression and body language. She told me that she had been offended by the other women in the abortion clinic waiting room because they were using abortion as a form of birth control, but her condom had broken so she had no choice! I had real difficulty not pointing out that she did have a choice, and she had made it! Just like the other women in the waiting room." (Physician, Ontario)

"A 21 year old woman and her mother drove three hours to come to their appointment for an abortion. They were surprised to find the clinic a 'nice' place with friendly, personable staff. While going over contraceptive options, they shared that they were Pro-Life and disagreed with abortion, but that the patient could not afford to raise a child right now. Also, she wouldn't need contraception since she wasn't going to have sex until she got married, because of her religious beliefs. Rather than argue with them, I saw this as an opportunity for dialogue, and in the end, my hope was that I had planted a 'healing seed' to help resolve the conflict between their beliefs and their realities." (Physician, Washington State)

"I had a 37 year old woman just yesterday who was 13 weeks. She said she and her husband had been discussing this pregnancy for 2-3 months. She was strongly opposed to abortion, 'but my husband is forcing me to do it.' Naturally, I told her that no one could force her into an abortion, and that she had to choose whether the pregnancy or her husband were more important. I told her I only wanted what was best for her, and I would not do the abortion unless she agreed that it was in her best interest. Once she was faced with actually having to voice her own choice, she said 'Well, I made the appointment and I came here, so go ahead and do it. It's what's best.' At last I think she came to grips with the fact that it really was her decision after all." (Physician, Nevada)

"We have anti-choice women in for abortions all the time. Many of them are just naive and ignorant until they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. Many of them are not malicious. They just haven't given it the proper amount of thought until it completely affects them. They can be judgmental about their friends, family, and other women. Then suddenly they become pregnant. Suddenly they see the truth. That it should only be their own choice. Unfortunately, many also think that somehow they are different than everyone else and they deserve to have an abortion, while no one else does." (Physician, Washington State)

Although few studies have been made of this phenomenon, a study done in 1981 (1) found that 24% of women who had abortions considered the procedure morally wrong, and 7% of women who'd had abortions disagreed with the statement, "Any woman who wants an abortion should be permitted to obtain it legally." A 1994/95 survey (2,3) of nearly 10,000 abortion patients showed 18% of women having abortions are born-again or Evangelical Christians. Many of these women are likely anti-choice. The survey also showed that Catholic women have an abortion rate 29% higher than Protestant women. A Planned Parenthood handbook on abortion notes that nearly half of all abortions are for women who describe themselves as born-again Christian, Evangelical Christian, or Catholic. (4)

According to a 1987 article, Abortion Clinics' Toughest Cases,(5) "Physicians and clinics frequently terminate pregnancies for women who believe abortion is 'murder' and 'a sin' but who are not anti-abortion activists. Demonstrators, organizers, and leaders in the [anti-abortion] movement are seen less frequently, ranging from perhaps once or twice a month to a few times in the course of a professional career." The article contained the following anecdotes:

An administrator at a Missouri clinic recalled a woman blurting out in the recovery room, "It should be illegal." The other women's mouths fell open, said the administrator. "They couldn't believe it."

The medical director of an Indianapolis clinic recalled one prospective patient who phoned to ask whether the clinic had a back door. He said no. How, she asked, could she get inside without being seen by fellow picketers outside? Pointing out that two orthopedists practiced with him, the doctor told the woman "she could limp and say she was coming to see the orthopods."

The medical director at a Dallas abortion clinic told this story: A white woman from an affluent north Dallas neighborhood brought her black maid in for an abortion and paid for it. While the maid was in a counseling session, a commotion was heard in the waiting room outside. The maid's employer was handing out anti-abortion leaflets to other women waiting for abortions.

From a clinic director in a mid-western state: "One of the most remarkable cases was a woman who came [from another part of the state] and said she was the Right-to-Life president in her county. 'But,' she said, she 'had become pregnant and had to have an abortion.'"

From a counselor in Virginia: "[The patient] was disturbed and upset and insisted she couldn't carry the pregnancy to term. She opposed abortion -- and in fact had picketed this very clinic -- [but] felt the abortion was something she had to do."

Many anti-choice women are convinced that their need for abortion is unique -- not like those "other" women -- even though they have abortions for the same sorts of reasons. Anti-choice women often expect special treatment from clinic staff. Some demand an abortion immediately, wanting to skip important preliminaries such as taking a history or waiting for blood test results. Frequently, anti-abortion women will refuse counseling (such women are generally turned away or referred to an outside counselor because counseling at clinics is mandatory). Some women insist on sneaking in the back door and hiding in a room away from other patients. Others refuse to sit in the waiting room with women they call "sluts" and "trash." Or if they do, they get angry when other patients in the waiting room talk or laugh, because it proves to them that women get abortions casually, for "convenience".

A few behave in a very hostile manner, such as calling clinic staff "murderers." Years ago, a clinic counselor in British Columbia told me that one of her patients went into the procedure room apparently fine with her decision to have an abortion. During the abortion, at a stage when it was too late to stop the procedure, the woman started screaming "You murderers!" and other invectives at everyone in the room.

A few doctors actually refuse to provide abortions to anti-choice women for liability reasons. In the words of a Kansas physician:

"Early in my career, I thought I was obligated to provide an abortion for every woman who arrived at my doorstep requesting an abortion. My experience in general medicine, surgery, and abortion has led me to believe differently. Not inadvertently, women give either me or my staff an uneasy feeling about their ambivalence or their anxiety about the abortion process. Since I have never been sued for an abortion I did not perform, my policy is to acknowledge my gut feeling, which is more often right than wrong."

A clinic counselor from Georgia stated:

"I have long felt that anti-abortionism is a psychological contraindication to the abortion procedure. And that we don't have to give everyone who asks an abortion. An anti-abortion woman is likely to be uncooperative and will probably not follow post-op instructions or instructions on how to deal with complications. There is actually a case where an anti-abortion patient failed to go as directed to Emergency for an unrelated complication. She ended up dying, and her family sued the physician and badgered him publicly. Additionally, if you have a complication that day, it will be the anti-abortionist. I'm not talking about the patient who says, 'I was against abortion until it happened to me', or 'I'm really against abortion, but I have to do this'. I'm talking about the picketer, the activist, the totally anti-creature who will come back to haunt us."

In fact, an anti-abortion organization called Life Dynamics Inc., of Denton Texas, specializes in malpractice suits against abortion providers. They advertise for and exploit women who regret their abortion decision or who had complications, and try and persuade them to file suit against the doctor or clinic. Many of these women are vulnerable and suffer from emotional problems, but others are anti-abortion, or at least very ambivalent about their decision to have an abortion. The message that abortion is murder has had a profound influence on them, and it may leave them with a legacy of guilt and shame after their abortion, too often borne alone and in silence. When these women find themselves unable to cope with their abortions, they may look for somebody else to blame, and doctors become a convenient scapegoat.

At times, clinic staff understandably become frustrated and angry when they have to deal with abusive, hostile, or hypocritical patients. And it is rare for anti-choice women to express appreciation for the service they've received. But most clinics perform abortions on anti-abortion women because they feel it's their obligation to help all women. They provide more thorough and specialized counseling to these women to ensure they take ownership of their decision, as far as possible. Here's a couple of examples of counseling techniques:

"When a patient comes in with my 'favorite' sentiment: 'The only moral abortion is my abortion,' I try to expand her understanding that a few more of us have had and deserve a 'moral' abortion. When a woman expands her need for care beyond herself, you no longer have an 'anti'." (Clinic Administrator, Louisiana)

"Sometimes I say to patients who have that 'I have no choice, I know I'll regret it, just do me' attitude: 'You may not care, but we do. We only do abortions on women who want our services. We will not knowingly contribute to any possible trauma of any woman.' They seem surprised that we care how we do our work, but they also accept it." (Counselor, New York)

Some anti-choice women who have abortions do make peace with their decision and even become pro-choice, or at least more forgiving of other women seeking abortions. A Louisiana patient who was anti-choice before her abortion, wrote a warm and grateful thank-you letter to the clinic, admitting that she had been a hypocrite:

"I never dreamed, in my wildest nightmares, that there would ever be a situation where I personally would choose such an act. Of course, we would each like to think that our reasons for a termination are the exception to the rule. But the bottom line is that you people spend your lives, reputations, careers and energy fighting for, maintaining, and providing an option that I needed, while I spent my energy lambasting you. Yet you still allowed me to make use of your services even though I had been one of your enemies. You treated us as kindly and warmly as you did all of your patients and never once pointed an 'I told you so' finger in our direction. I got the impression that you cared equally about each woman in the facility and what each woman was going through, regardless of her reasons for choosing the procedure. I have never met a group of purely non-judgmental people like yourselves."

On occasion, an abortion turns out to be a momentous, life-affirming experience for an anti-choice woman. A doctor from a north-western state shared the following personal story with me:

"I was born into a very Catholic family, and was politically pro-life during college. After dating my first real boyfriend for three years, we broke up, and the day my boyfriend moved out, I discovered I was pregnant. It was an agonizing decision, and something I never thought I would do, but I decided an abortion was the only realistic option. Thanks to Planned Parenthood counseling, I worked through some very tough conflicts within myself. I had to learn that my decision was a loving one. That 'my god' was actually a loving and supportive god. And that men don't have to make this decision, only women do. That it is a very personal, individual decision. I had to own it. I became much more compassionate towards myself and others as a result of my experience. Two years later I began medical school. When it came time to choose a practice, an abortion clinic opportunity came up. In working there, I began to feel that this was my calling. Having been in my patients' shoes, and coming from an unforgiving background, I could honestly say to patients, 'I know how you feel.' Deciding to have an abortion was THE hardest decision I've ever made in my life. Yet it has brought me the greatest transformation, fulfillment, and now joy. I am a more loving person because of it, and a better doctor for having experienced it. I love the work that I do, and the opportunity to support women seeking to end an unwanted pregnancy. My patients and my work are life's gifts to me, and I think my compassion and support are my gifts in return."

Welcome Ann Marie,
Good to have you here!! :)

Laura,
Here's a quarter. Go buy yourself a point.

Laura's post smacks of baloney.

Like the campus RTL girl. What, did she come in and announce that hey she is against abortion but wants one anyway?

Riduculous. All of them. Implausible with a capital I.

All the names changed of course. All anonymous.

Has all of the hallmarks of fiction.

Abortion is always a tragedy... no matter the circumstances that lead up to it.

"Father, forgive them... for they know not what they do."

Hi Ann Marie! I'm glad to see another pro lifer here. :)

A pro-lifer is not a pro-lifer in name only, he or she must back up what he or she says by what he or she does.

This guy is not a pro-lifer. He is a coward and will suffer the consequences of his actions just like all pro-aborts will, unrepented of.

Just because there are hypocrite pro-lifers in this world doesn't justify killing an innocent child in the womb. This is like saying that because there are people against murder, then commit murder, make murder OK.

Again Laura, you make absolutely no sense and your justification of abortion at the sacrifice of simple logic is a sign of moral desparation.

Planned Parenthood is now to be called N A Z I
for:
National Abortion Zealots Incorporated

This Erikson creep sounds like the sort of bum that is the reason some women consider abortion. From the story at least, she sounded like she was willing to work at the relationship and was willing to consider marriage and keeping her baby. He didn't encourage her to keep the baby or offer to help, nothing. The only help he was willing to give her was to get an abortion. He actually gave her the money and drove her to the facility.

No way he ever cared about her or his baby. Total liar. Total creep.

She said it herself: "He didn't force me". His crime is not that he "made her" have an abortion. His crime is being an unloving fool. Foolish men have sex all the time with equal foolish women. If he is parading as pro-life that is his hypocrisy to deal with but its nothing too major. I mean we have a president and a vice-president who won't answer for a war.

Hippie -

Not implausisble at all. I dealth with two patients like that personally (one was the patient herself, the other was a parent of another patient).

"I'm pro life BUT this is different!!!"

two people, two different situations - SAME sentence.

HisMan is now to be called:

Pro-life Sadist Yells Cacophonous Hilarious Obduracies

PSYCHO

She said it herself: "He didn't force me". His crime is not that he "made her" have an abortion. His crime is being an unloving fool. Foolish men have sex all the time with equal foolish women. If he is parading as pro-life that is his hypocrisy to deal with but its nothing too major. I mean we have a president and a vice-president who won't answer for a war.

Posted by: Yo La Tango at June 24, 2008 11:29 AM

Sorry YLT,

She was a fool for thinking he might be a decent person. He was not a fool, rather a vicious user taking advantage of a woman then dumping her and paying to have his own baby killed. Then the swine parades around all of Washingtion claiming to be a defender of the innocent and helpless unborn children. Make me vomit.

Bush and Cheney play the same game. They needed to get the prolife vote so they could help themselves and their cronies to the US Treasury.

They are cut from the same cloth, vicious users who don't care who they hurt as long as they advance themselves.

A friendly reminder-
Anonymous comments are no longer allowed. Pick a name. Thank you. :)

"But why check facts for an article like that. It doesn't even attempt to substantiate its anecdotes."

Neither does the pro-life side. How many times have PL posters cited anecdotal accounts without any statistical backup?

The takeaway from that article is that you can argue for a principal in the abstract, but a person's response might be the opposite when confronted in real life.

It is certainly true that there are instances of pro-life women having abortions. It's also true that women who are pro-choice, when pregnant, found they couldn't consider an abortion and kept their baby. I personally know women who were in both circumstances.

Amanda...I was just involved with a forum of pro-lifers and pro-choicers discussing the abortion issue. The person who told me they do not allow anyone back to the procedure room for "Safty" reasons is a communications director for Planned Parenthood.

I figured it was for the reasons you said but when someone who is the CD of PP tells me it's for "safty" reasons it makes me what to go...ummmmm.

Carla I hope you are able to read my post because I really want you to hear this. I have known people who call themselves pro-life, and have had abortions. It does happen. Those are the worst kind of people, people who lie and manipulate, calling women like myself and Laura baby killers and whores, all the while taking advantage of what we fought so hard to make available for women. These are also usually the women who tell stories of coercion and abuse from the clinics when they are outed for having an abortion.

If a woman thinks abortion is murder, and has an abortion, should be considered a murderer.

And I know women who turn pro-life after abortions, I'm not referring to them.

ann marie, I was told it was because if the father was in the procedure room he might start panicking or something and the mother would have to worry about him or trying to comfort him and the mother should just be focusing on herself and how she feels.

Amanda...another thing..the Ru486...isn't there a couple of different times a woman is suppose to go the the clinic for that procedure?

This abortion story does not seem to be of that kind of abortion...

so again the girlfriend holding her hand has me thinking something is not right here.

Can you help clear this up for me?

Hi Jess,
Not following you sweets, but I read what you wrote. :)

Are you referring to me? I had an abortion. I had my child murdered. Yes, I am a murderer. I have been forgiven. We have been over this, no?

If a woman considers herself prolife and has an abortion, I doubt she was prolife to begin with.

I can't recall anyone here calling you or Laura a baby killer or a whore and I guess I didn't realize how hard you two have worked to make abortion available. Good to know.

Carla: God loves you! (and BTW, don't waste your quarters!)

Carla I hope you are able to read my post because I really want you to hear this. I have known people who call themselves pro-life, and have had abortions. It does happen. Those are the worst kind of people, people who lie and manipulate, calling women like myself and Laura baby killers and whores, all the while taking advantage of what we fought so hard to make available for women. These are also usually the women who tell stories of coercion and abuse from the clinics when they are outed for having an abortion.

Jess: really what is the point of this? Prolife people are human too and make mistakes. I don't know why a "prolife" person does this but I would say they are the exception to the rule. Your post is off topic. Lets deal with the scumbag Erickson who didn't have the decency to help this poor woman out.

was SoMG's comment deleted? Just curious, that's all.

He didn't tell me I had to get an abortion. He didn't force me," Tawnya said.

But he also wasn't going to marry her, she said, and she didn't want to raise another child on her own.

~~~~

Okay, so that's reasonable.

I don't have Faith, but I do have my beautiful 5 year old daughter who I was repeatedly urged to abort when I was pregnant with her by her own father because he came from a pro-choice household where the legal murder of an inconvienient child was seen as a necessary evil. I want this "choice" to be allowed legally to kill your own children removed from the world, so that it never becomes ANYONE'S first option.

So...your point is that many religious people are hypocrites? Wow! I NEVER KNEW THAT BEFORE!

Please. Tell me something I don't know.

N A Z I

More like "National Anti-abortion Zealots.."

He didn't tell me I had to get an abortion. He didn't force me," Tawnya said.

But he also wasn't going to marry her, she said, and she didn't want to raise another child on her own.

~~~~

Okay, so that's reasonable.

Posted by: Dieter at June 24, 2008 12:59 PM

It was Erickson's ambivalence towards his own child that drove the mother to abort. If he had told her I will support the baby and you, she probably would not have had the child. He was thinking of himself, just like he was thinking of himself when he had sex with her too.

Those are the worst kind of people, people who lie and manipulate, calling women like myself and Laura baby killers and whores, all the while taking advantage of what we fought so hard to make available for women.

Jess, you weren't alive all those years that people fought so hard for the option to kill babies. You are still alive IN SPITE of it.

You may fight to keep it legal, but I doubt that if you stopped today, Roe would cease to be law.

No Carla:

You are NOT a murderer. Do not ever say or type those word again, for "we are committed to what we confess".

Once a sin has been confessed and repented of it no longer exists. That is the true miracle of knowing Jesus Christ.

In fact, you're a saint, as white as snow, and your beautiful baby patiently waits for you in Heaven longing to meet you while you fulfill God's dream for your life here on earth.

JKiller:

Let's see, I brand Planned Parenthood for doing what they actually do and you call me a psycho? (Let me draw a picture. You see when a baby is killed there is no parenthood, so I'm just trying to make things a little clearer).

Thank you so much for proving my point as admitting that you are part of the NAZI organization that is now to be called National Abortion Zealots Incorporated.

Hey, at least I call you and the group you support what you realy are; a corpus organized in the United States of America, zealously supporting abortion.

Or, are you pro-life now, i.e. NICE - National Infant Comfort Entity? Which is it? You don't support NAZI? Why am I a PSYCHO for calling you what you are? Are you ashamed of that? Wur ya fer aburchoin b'fer ya wur agin' it?

Now that's insane not wanting to be called what you are. Something akin to being schizophrenic or self-delusional.

Okay, so that's reasonable.

Of course it's not. She was single when she had sex, sex is the leading cause of babies, so it stands to reason that she'd be single if she were to get pregnant.

The reasons women give for aborting were circumstances which were present when they chose to create the child. You'd think they'd exercise some wisdom.

Carla, correct me if I'm wrong but you didn't really know what you were getting yourself into when you had your abortion. My point is that there are people who know what abortion is and what it does, and still has an abortion and somehow thinks just because they call themselves pro-life makes them pro-life and therefore better then people who are pro-choice.

My pro-life friend and I were talking, and she said she believed anyone who took the morning after pill was a baby killer (I've taken it twice). Which I thought was ironic, seeing as she uses the pill (when she's not having unprotected sex). Anyway that's just a loose example.

Patricia the topic is about a person who claims they are pro-life but aren't. It's totally on topic. And "pro-lifers" who have abortions aren't making mistakes, they have abortions on purpose knowing exactly what's going to happen.

Jacqueline, I meant people who are pro-choice in general. But I like to think everyone's opinion counts for something, even little old me : )

Jacqueline, I meant people who are pro-choice in general. But I like to think everyone's opinion counts for something, even little old me : )

Dieter:

Trying to lose weight? That's healthy. I like low carb and low fat. I've got to lose 10 pounds before my son's wedding. It's a battle.

By the way, a lesson in acronyms: National Anti-Abortion Zealots would be called NA-AZ

Besides, I don't mind being called an anti-abortion zealot or a NA-AZ, so, thanks. Do you mind being called an abortion zealot or a NAZI?

By the way is Dieter German?

"Amanda...another thing..the Ru486...isn't there a couple of different times a woman is suppose to go the the clinic for that procedure?"

Yes. Two visits usually. When its administered, they'll let someone sit with you, but for any sort of exam, the friend needs to leave the room. And you're right that the wording suggests she had a surgical abortion - but you never know.

I'm sure "safety" is just a cover-all word for all of the reasons other people aren't allowed to be with a patient during a surgical abortion, but you're right that its vague.

So yes, either the clinic broke the law, or the story is fishy.

Yeah, this guy is a p.o.s., and he probably wouldn't have made it through my crap filter in order to be slept with by me in the first place, but she still shouldn't have had an abortion. Even the kids of low-life liers deserve a fair shake.

"I've got to lose 10 pounds before my son's wedding. It's a battle."

Hisman, if I could make a suggestion have you tried eating bran cereal? I mix half a cup of Kellogg's All-Bran extra fiber cereal and one cup of Cheerios, put it in a plastic zip lock bag and carry it with me all day, for a snack whenever I get hungry. It does have 20-grams of carbs but also 52% fiber, which is the key to healthy weight loss. That and egg whites, which are all protein and almost nothing else.

HisMan,

You've been given the right to declare sainthood on people now?

I'm sure the Pope appreciates your assistance...
but I have a feeling he'd prefer you stick to what your good at - coming up with things you think are very clever and repeatedly patting yourself on the back for it.

"Yeah, this guy is a p.o.s., and he probably wouldn't have made it through my crap filter in order to be slept with by me in the first place"

hahhaha X. FTW. =)

It drives me a little nuts how Jill's posts about this case make her out to be a victim. No one forced or coerced her to do anything. Simple solution - don't have sex with politicians. I can't think of a single one who'd pass through ANY decent person's "crap filter".

Hi HisMan,
Ok. You are right. Not a murderer, a new creation in Christ!!! :) A loving rebuke I can handle, I will never say that word again in regards to me.

Jess,
I didn't know what I was in for when getting an abortion. You are right about that.
I agree that there are people that know exactly what abortion is and that it kills a baby and they go ahead and have one. They are prolife in their imagination.

And we are sure that this girlfriend isn't lying about him paying for it and such, right? Do we have records that he took out the money that morning for instance. Not that I don't believe the article. I really don't know much about him, but I could very well see an angry girlfriend trying to pull something like this off and blame it on a pro-life man who maybe didn't even know she was pregnant or having an abortion. Maybe someone knows more??

Laura,
So your long post above is suppose to convince us that pro-lifers are sinners too. Ok, so what's new? I think now the majority of people deep down know that abortion is killing a human life. But when it all comes down to it, when we are in a tough situation we are all at least tempted to do the wrong thing. We try to ignore the part of us that knows it is wrong. Thats one thing I hate about abortion, that it always looks like the easier option for women. It has become birth control for many, a sin birthing sin.

Amanda,
She was abandoned in her time of need. She was in crisis. Maybe she didn't know what to do. What if she hoped he would stand beside her, marry her??
Sounds like she was alone.

Maybe she would have kept that baby if he had offered her any kind of support. In her time of crisis, she did what she probably wouldn't have done, if he would have stepped up. The "nice guy" that he was, he gave her a ride, got the money from the ATM, and dropped her off.

I am sure Bethany sees ladies like this quite a bit.

So...you're mad at Jill?

well, I have to go get ready for band practice. Soon I'll have a new phone (Blackjack II, perhaps. I hate making big purchasing decisions. >:( ) and I'll be here via my phone like I used to be. I'm so sad without it. ;_;

See ya, X. Have a good practice!

Have fun playing with your band!

Carla I agree that there are people that know exactly what abortion is and that it kills a baby and they go ahead and have one. They are prolife in their imagination. They are prolife in their imagination.

Very sad.

*****
Quick story, I think you'll appreciate this. Yesterday a stranger in a parking lot asked me about the Project Gabriel magnet on the back of my car. She was curious if it was pro-abortion or pro-life. When I told her pro-life she began telling me how she has offered to take care of the babies of pregnant women who are considering abortion. She's never had one come back to her with a baby, they've all kept them. It was very uplifting to meet her. She even gave me her phone number, if I ever came across someone who needed help. Aren't people amazing?

Very cool, Janet!!!

"Amanda,
She was abandoned in her time of need. She was in crisis. Maybe she didn't know what to do. What if she hoped he would stand beside her, marry her??
Sounds like she was alone.

Maybe she would have kept that baby if he had offered her any kind of support. In her time of crisis, she did what she probably wouldn't have done, if he would have stepped up. The "nice guy" that he was, he gave her a ride, got the money from the ATM, and dropped her off. "

Well, she wasn't alone. She had a friend with her. And more importantly, he didn't need to OFFER her support, he is legally obligated to provide it to her. He didn't tell her to have an abortion, he didn't even suggest it - she says SHE did because SHE didn't want to provide for another child. If she wanted to have the baby, he would have been obligated BY LAW to provide her child support. And if he denied it? Well, thats what court-ordered DNA tests are for. So I just don't buy for a second that she really wanted this baby.

If I was in her situation, I would have said "hey scumbag, it was nice knowing you. I'll be looking forward to your child support checks. TTFN!" I doubt any politician would risk the fallout of being a deadbeat dad.

Bottom line is - if you and the person you want to sleep with are not in perfect agreement over what to do if the woman gets pregnant, don't sleep with them. Making her out to be the victim is just dishonest.

Amanda,
She was abandoned in her time of need. She was in crisis. Maybe she didn't know what to do. What if she hoped he would stand beside her, marry her??
Sounds like she was alone.

Maybe she would have kept that baby if he had offered her any kind of support. In her time of crisis, she did what she probably wouldn't have done, if he would have stepped up. The "nice guy" that he was, he gave her a ride, got the money from the ATM, and dropped her off.

I agree with this totally.
But I also agree with Amanda: you gonna sleep with a politician, you takes your chances.
Most politicians are in there for a reason - themselves.
Likely when she saw him representing himself as a prolife congressional candidate, that was it for her.
He should be kicked to the curb on his sorry a$$. You guys have no need of men (and women)like this.

She was alone in her decision.

It is hard to know in the he said/she said way the article is written. Don't his actions speak volumes to you though?? Deal with it, babe is what his actions say to me.

Anyway, Amanda, just when are you going to be prolife?? :) I thought if you were waiting for an invitation...well...you are cordially invited to speak up for those that cannot speak for themselves.

"It is hard to know in the he said/she said way the article is written. Don't his actions speak volumes to you though?? Deal with it, babe is what his actions say to me. "

Oh yeah - of course - I'm just saying, girls have to get a little better at their scumbag detecting skills and not allow themselves to become victims - and I don't think it does them any favors to treat them as victims...because to me, victomhood implies she couldn't have controlled this situation, and the fact is she could have. If you let someone believe they had no control over what happened to them, I think they are less likely to take action to prevent it from happening again. Of course if he HAD coerced her, or she was manipulated in any way - thats quite different.

I mean, I hope there aren't still a lot of girls out there naive enough to buy the "ohh baby of course I'd marry you if you got pregnant!!" line in the heat of the moment. When my bf and I talked about this, I knew I could trust him, because instead of giving me some cheesy overly reassuring line he said "Well honestly, I'd be scared s---less and probably pee my pants. But we'd make it work."

Amanda, if you got pregnant I'd marry you. It's legal in my state : )

You would be surprised how many girls out there that believe what they are told. It's not just the girls though is it?? The girls may be naive, for sure, but the boys/men have their fun and walk away. Where is the outrage over their behavior?! Not directing that at you, Amanda. Just sayin.

It doesn't seem like Tawnya really WANTED an abortion. Wish her friend would have done more than hold her hand.

You are still invited, Amanda. It's an open invitation......

So would you get an abortion, Amanda?

First, This girl never asked for or even wanted to be portrayed as a victim. She is ashamed...though, forgiven. This girl did not seek out attention on this. In fact, it was only after REPEATED attempts by the media that she even spoke up.

Secondly, It's much easier to quote child support laws than it is to actually enforce them. (Especially if you are a very poor working single woman opposing a millionare jerk who would possible have means to pull you through support/custody/parenting legal loopholes. Personally, I find that scary. Very scary considering how vulnerable she and that unborn child were.

Third, Mike was not a politician when they were dating. In fact, I belive he has no true political background at all He is simply rich enough to run for office, pay for name recognition, and perhaps buy people enough drinks to believe his awful stories.

It doesn't seem like Tawnya really WANTED an abortion. Wish her friend would have done more than hold her hand.

Doesn't sound like much of a friend. :(

Carla -

Nope. Wouldn't even consider it. My mom and I had this talk years ago when I first became sexually active. I told her the only way that abortion would be an option for me is if I'd get kicked out of the house or in any way isolated from my family if I got pregnant. She said that would never happen. She said she'd probably be upset until the first time she saw baby clothes at the store. Haha.

Now that I'm older and self sufficient, it doesn't even depend on Mom and fam anymore. Its just not an option I'd consider. It also helps that I seem to have developed a very keen scumbag detector - the three serious boyfriends I've had have all been wonderful, stand up guys who would never have left me alone to make that decision in the first place. I realize though that not all girls are so lucky, which I guess is why I'm still more pro choice than not. I recognize I'm in a very very very lucky position in life that allows me to not even consider having an abortion. Its easy for me to say in my position that its not the right choice, but I realize its VERY different for many girls out there.

She said she'd probably be upset until the first time she saw baby clothes at the store.

Well, just take her to Babies R' Us and tell her you're pregnant. That will cover all your bases. They EVEN have baby toys too! ahhh, I love that store. I don't have any reason to go in it anymore. :((((((

"Well, just take her to Babies R' Us and tell her you're pregnant. That will cover all your bases. They EVEN have baby toys too! ahhh, I love that store. I don't have any reason to go in it anymore. :(((((("

Yeah Elizabeth, that place is AWESOME!

"I don't have any reason to go in it anymore. :(((((("

meet a nice man, get married and have more babies :)

meet a nice man

This seems to be the problem. Particularly the nice part..oh and the man part too. Not many of those around these parts. :)

He is out there, Elizabeth!!! You are doing great with your girly and your schooling!! :)

Amanda,

With regards to the no-one-is-allowed-to-be-in-the-room rule...

A few months ago we watched a special (can't remember the name) on Fox, I think, about women who made choices regarding their pregnancies. One woman chose abortion at Dr. Harrison's clinic.

There she was, lying on her back, in the procedure room with her mom sitting smack next to her. That's when Dr. Harrison spilled the beans and inadvertantly revealed that this was the woman's second abortion, unbeknownst to her mom. All this while he was scraping her out.

Was that unlawful of him?

Carder,

I remember that special! That girl was very sad and confused I have to say.

Carla,

I sure hope so! I can't wait to have more babies, but for now, I'm content to have my little girly and finish my degree (even though it's taking forrrrever!)

meet a nice man

This seems to be the problem. Particularly the nice part..oh and the man part too. Not many of those around these parts. :)

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at June 24, 2008 4:24 PM
...................................

It's difficult dating as a single mother. Many nice men or women for that matter, don't wish to risk becoming involved with children in case the relationship doesn't work out. Many don't wish to take on the responsibility of a child that they have not had and may not be given a say so in it's upbringing. Then there is the baggage with the biological parent you could be sucked into.
You are a nice woman Elizabeth. Be glad that you don't have to divide your non-school time up between a man and your daughter. A good relationship will come to you when the time is right for you.

Sally, 7:30 p.m.

Thanks! That was really sweet, and at this point in my life, I'm okay with being single because piling more stuff into my life would make me more stressed out than usual! But thank you for your kind words.

I recognize I'm in a very very very lucky position in life that allows me to not even consider having an abortion. Its easy for me to say in my position that its not the right choice, but I realize its VERY different for many girls out there.

Then I think the right thing to do is change those circumstances rather than letting them coerce a woman into doing something she'd rather not do. Abortion is not the only answer.

I don't think only the financially comfortable and educated should have the privilege of having rather than killing their kids. Besides, adoption is free, so there are few to no circumstances that a dead baby would solve that a live baby placed in the waiting arms of people that will adore and care for the child couldn't also solve.

Just my two cents.

Jacqueline: 9:49:

Well said! Worth much more than two cents! :)

HisMan, the N. I. C. E. was the National Institute for Controlled Experimentation, the diabolical scientific foundation in CS Lewis' excellent novel THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH.

The other two novels in his "Space Trilogy" are also excellent, they are OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET and PERELANDRA.

HisMan,

You've got to admit the moniker is pretty much true for you. And also, despite how amazingly easy it is, its great fun provoking you just to see what kind of crazy babble you will spout off next.

Most politicians are in there for a reason - themselves.

Patricia, have to laugh - right on.

And, sad to say, our gov't's - state level and especially federal, now exist primarily to preserve their own power and influence - that's their #1 concern, regardless of how the political wind is currently blowing and whether or not you or I agree with a certain gov't action.

Doug: And, sad to say, our gov't's - state level and especially federal, now exist primarily to preserve their own power and influence - that's their #1 concern,

Isn't that just a symptom of a country ruled by politicians' own selfish desires?

Haha, but that would make me a Jew, right Mel? I thought I was a Nazi? How can I be both a Nazi and a Jew?

Out of line, Hisman, inflammatory..

I apologize, JKeller. That should not have gone live.

Doug: "And, sad to say, our gov't's - state level and especially federal, now exist primarily to preserve their own power and influence - that's their #1 concern,"

Janet: Isn't that just a symptom of a country ruled by politicians' own selfish desires?

Politicians are pretty much always that way, Janet. I see the bureaucracies of gov't now being so large that they've reached a "critical mass" and they're more willfully self-sustaining (than really bent on serving the populace) and somewhat beyond the power even of politicians.

I think it's something like 1 in 2 Americans now get their money from the gov't, via working for it in civil service or the military, or in Social Security payments, disability, etc. Hard to imagine they'd really vote against what they now see as being in their interest, so I think we're stuck with a very "big government" unless something catastrophic for gov't occurs - my best guess is a real economic collapse.

Doug: And, sad to say, our gov't's - state level and especially federal, now exist primarily to preserve their own power and influence - that's their #1 concern,

Janet:11:45 PM: Isn't that just a symptom of a country ruled by politicians' own selfish desires?

Doug: 11:51: Politicians are pretty much always that way, Janet. I see the bureaucracies of gov't now being so large that they've reached a "critical mass" and they're more willfully self-sustaining (than really bent on serving the populace) and somewhat beyond the power even of politicians.

I think it's something like 1 in 2 Americans now get their money from the gov't, via working for it in civil service or the military, or in Social Security payments, disability, etc. Hard to imagine they'd really vote against what they now see as being in their interest, so I think we're stuck with a very "big government" unless something catastrophic for gov't occurs - my best guess is a real economic collapse.

Do you see the similarity between the politicians' attitudes of "me, me, me, my interests first" and the woman who has an abortion because it suits her? The attitudes of individuals drift into government. How can this attitude be wrong in the case of politicians but not in the case of women getting abortion? It's inconsistent.

It's funny how you mention a possible economic collapse might change things. We're already in a kind of moral collapse with so may abortions.

Do you see the similarity between the politicians' attitudes of "me, me, me, my interests first" and the woman who has an abortion because it suits her?

Same as the woman who continues a pregnancy because it suits her.
.....

The attitudes of individuals drift into government. How can this attitude be wrong in the case of politicians but not in the case of women getting abortion? It's inconsistent.

No, it's just the way most politicians are, and govt's tend to get "weightier" as time goes by. If we go with the premise that politicians and gov't really are "to serve the people" then the conflicts become obvious.

However, there's no agreement that a given pregnant woman has to continue an unwanted pregnancy.
......

It's funny how you mention a possible economic collapse might change things. We're already in a kind of moral collapse with so may abortions.

Janet, I think the real humor is just realizing that there are always some people who think the world is going to hell in a handbasket. It was true thousands and thousands of years ago - we see it in ancient writing. Even though I don't know if handbaskets existed back then.

I am so sick and tired of seeing Tawnya attacked by folks that don’t take even a moment to ask themselves… Hmmmm…. What was in it for her????? I will tell you what was in it for her… She has now had to have some very difficult conversations with her daughter, as well as the wonderful man she has been seeing about this experience. She would rather it come from her than anyone else. She is currently working full-time and going to school and has remained a 4 pt. Student all the way through, due to the stress of this controversy, she had to pull herself from her last quarter or fail. It has been a tremendous stress on her.

Why did she do it? Really, because it was the right thing to do. Tawnya is a very private person who is not looking for notoriety as the poster child for pro-life, pro-choice, Mannix, or anyone else. She is simply a good person that has been through some tremendous struggles in her life… to include this experience. She is an amazing woman who has not come out of those struggles jaded or bitter, but someone who still believes that the truth will prevail. That there still is some good in people. I would like to speak to a few points
• I was the friend with Tawnya at the clinic, I can tell you with absolute certainty I was in the room with her. Note that in the Oregonian article. Tawnya provided Janie Har, the reporter, her medical documents from the clinic where it clearly states that I was there. Regardless, In the grand scheme of things, I would say this is really a mute point.
• Tawnya had the procedure because she felt she had no choice. The court systems had already failed her in providing any kind of support, was she supposed to trust that they would do anything for her now?? She was already a single mom of a 3 year old, making $13 / hr and without any family support or child support. The reason her daughter’s father was living with her was due to the fact that she could not find daycare for her swing shift, nor could she afford it. The only way the father would agree to watch her daughter during this time is if she provided him with a place to stay.
• Should she have used protection? Of course. Unfortunately insecurities often override common sense. She put him on a pedestal, and felt completely inferior to him. Why wouldn’t she feel that way? She was 25 at the time (O states 26 but is incorrect) working in a warehouse, he was the President of a successful business and extremely wealthy. She was star struck and afraid that if she pushed back this would make him leave.
I believe the majority of women having abortions would choose not to if they had the support and confidence to raise a child. Perhaps if RTL or other Pro-Life organizations spent their funding & time lobbying to get stricter “dead beat dad” laws in place vs. protesting outside of clinics, the end result would probably be in their favor more so then it is now.

Good post, Kristi.

Last I saw it's very close between Mannix and Erickson...