Good topic, Jill.

A hard thing - to take away kids from parents, but at some point we do it.

I really don't understand sending them back without any protection for those five underage pregnant girls they admit having discovered, or for those who aren't pregnant yet. What were the Texas courts thinking? What has really changed?

Yeah, it really bothers me that this kids were sent back into this situation with the FDLS claiming that all the marriages were consentual.
My foot!
And now they have a lovely new law saying all marriages will be between adults. How will this be enforced?
The incredible thing is they'll take kids away from homeschooling families for less than this.
To our shame, we have one of these sects in Bountiful BC and we've done nothing. Apparently, the way our lovely Charter of Rights is designed, it's possible that if we take these people to court, our activist judiciary would end up legalizing polygamy.

As someone who has followed this case VERY closely from day one I would respectfully suggest that Jill and anyone else who feels the need to jump on the "FLDS=Child Molesters" bandwagon get educated on the facts of the case before you start flinging roumor, innuendo and false information around. If anyone is interested in getting up to speed I would HIGHLY recommend some remedial reading:

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy

Oh, and BTW, the PL movement totally missed a HUGE opportunity to blast the PA side over talking out of both sides of it's mouth over underage sex.

Tell you what, I think that Warren Jeffs is a nasty, skeleton head, Rick Santorum-looking nutjob.

Not the greatest picture, but it shows him with two of his "brides" ages 13 and 12.

There isn't any doubt about child molestation at FLDS.

Easy to read more - just Google "warren jeffs underage".

Yeah, it really bothers me that this kids were sent back into this situation with the FDLS claiming that all the marriages were consentual.

No doubt, Patricia. The leader tells the father of a girl, often 12, 13, 14, or 15 years old, that she is to be married to such-and-such guy, and then the father tells her.

She is "placed beside" the man, so to speak, in marriage. There's no secret about this, and people, both inside and no longer inside of FLDS have confirmed it.

*shudder*

I watched that news story with my sister when they first took the kids away. Without prompting, we both looked at each other, then at our parents, and said "thank God" in unison.

Those girls have all been robbed of childhood. And thats not something any amount of time or therapy can give them back.

But if it was up to me, my ideal solution would have been to keep the children with their mothers and found housing for them off of the compound. Foster care, for someone who's grown up in an environment like that, is no doubt going to be traumatizing. But sending them back to a cult-like lifestyle isn't any better.

I don't know if I agree with keeping the children with their mothers. They're all obviously brainwashed, and the mothers see nothing wrong with what's going on here, because it probably happened to them, too. I'm afraid that their conditioning has made them unfit mothers, and the only way to break the cycle would be to take the kids somewhere they can be instructed in what is REALLY right and wrong by people other than their messed-up parents. I only hope that at least some of those kids were exposed to an outside functioning environment long enough for them to get a taste for it and seek it out later in life. What a huge failing of our judicial system. If it isn't due to activist judges who would perhaps like to legalize polygamy, or underage sex, or both, then I'd consider bribery, because that "church" has a great deal of money.

If they can't consent to sex, they can't consent to marriage. If they can't consent, it should be illegal to do it. I think, maybe 18 is a decent age for consenting to sex. Although I know younger people who were more mature then older people when it comes to sex, I believe those are the exception.

Yeahhhh I know what you're saying X... its just hard for me to think about Moms who THINK they're doing the right thing having their kids taken away. I'd have to classify it differently from abuse or neglect...because they truly believe this is RIGHT.

I guess I'm being overly optimistic when I think that if they lived outside of that compound, and went to public school, the local church (of the non-child marrying variety), and started socializing with neighbors that the kids would no longer be interested in the FLDS lifestyle. I mean, I'd be willing to be that given the choice of remaining on the compound and having their children taken away versus getting to stay with their children but leave that lifestyle, most would chose to stay with their kids.

Wait I have a question, who takes care of them when they're sick? Do they go to a regular hospital?

Polygamy - bad.

Dads that don't protect their daughters - bad.

Men that take advantage of women, especially young, underage women - real bad.

Pro-aborts - real, real bad.

Yay we win!

I mean, I'd be willing to be that given the choice of remaining on the compound and having their children taken away versus getting to stay with their children but leave that lifestyle, most would chose to stay with their kids.

Posted by: Amanda at June 8, 2008 10:58 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What I think is funny?

Now that the women on that ranch have spent weeks waiting in hotels with TV, maids, pools and room service, and the kids have been staying in homes with X-Box, iPods, toys, cool clothes and pets, NO ONE IS GOIN' BACK TO THE FARM.

It's easy to keep people "beat down" when they're isolated, dominated and powerless, but once those women got out and about they FLED!

Polygamy - bad.

Dads that don't protect their daughters - bad.

Men that take advantage of women, especially young, underage women - real bad.

Those who would take away their right to willingly continue or end pregnancies - real, real bad.

Laura, maybe the men of FLDS should be given X-Box 360's - might straighten them right out.

Doug,

"hot young sex or x-box, hot young sex or x-box"

I choose neither. I'm going to drink some milk. Good bye.

Laura, maybe the men of FLDS should be given X-Box 360's - might straighten them right out.

Posted by: Doug at June 8, 2008 12:02 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It works for Mike.

I got him "Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City," now whenever I address a question to the back of his head, the answer is always an affirmative "Uh-huh."

I'm pretty sure that "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" got us past a rocky point in our relationship.

Laura,

Funny.

Do you think he feels the same way about you and this site??? lol

LOL Laura

My Mike is on computers all day at work, so he isn't in to the video game thing, but I can still get a perfect mental image of what you described.

Instead of video games, he plays on 2 football teams, a baseball team, and a soccer team. Once football ends in July, he does a kickball team.

Different diversion, same effect... only I dont think you get a farmer's tan from playing video games. =)

I just about cried when I heard they were all going back. But then again, the government has a long history of throwing people back into abusive and/or potentially life-threatening positions (remember the young gay boy who got away from Jeffrey Dahmer and the police dropped him off back at Dahmer's place... sad) so I can't say I'm all that surprised.

I am appalled that the courts found that the marriages were "consensual" and dropped all incest charges. I hope those kids find a way out.

Doug... I get the heebie-jeebies every single time I read this thread and I see that picture.

Bleeccccchhhhk.

And they dress them up like grown women...the hair, the dresses...as though that makes them less childlike, but it just looks costume-ish, and CREEPY.

Hey Edyt,

I answered you on the obscene profits site. Don't know whether you saw it or not...

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/06/planned_parenth_39.html#comments

My husband and I play the games together. We're both gamers. I'm not exactly the most feminine flower in the field though. I'm the one who listens to TOOL, drinks beer, and plays first-person shooters, where he usually prefers Gwen Stefani, wine coolers, and role-playing games. We're a funny pair, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

Don't know why you'd have any problem with the activities of the FLDS, Jill. They're living the complete pro-life lifestyle:

Strict gender roles with women as perpetual mommies from menarche to menopause, men as providers and decision-makers for the women, sex only for procreation, and as many children as God can possibly provide.

You should be congratulating these people for their exemplary family values and Christian lifestyle.

I'm the one who listens to TOOL, drinks beer, and plays first-person shooters

Xalisae, I am in love.

Coincidence - I've been downloading "America's Army" (FPS) all day, and it just finished. It's free, which it pretty cool.

Big download, though, almost two gigs for Windows.

http://www.americasarmy.com/downloads/

Doug, isn't that the one designed by/for recruiters and the actual US Army? If so, I've played it a little in the past, and it's a solid play, but my heart is with Rainbow 6 Vegas for the 360. Unfortunately, I connot download and play anything here because I'm staying with my parents while my husband is deployed, and they can only get dial-up. weep for me. :(

And they dress them up like grown women...the hair, the dresses...as though that makes them less childlike, but it just looks costume-ish, and CREEPY.

Amanda, from what I saw on TV, the women were pretty weirded-out in a cultish, brainwashed, indoctrinated and very fearful way. It apparently starts early on, and while I understand there is some controversy over what people that have gotten away have said, some of it is worse yet, i.e. fathers teaching the underage daughters how "to please a man."

Xalisae, yes, that's the one, and hence why it's free.

Have to laugh - I only have dial-up at home, and it'd take over a week to get it there, if even the connection could be maintained.

I don't have any console games anymore, not since the Nintendo 64 days, but I've played the livin' heck out of games that'll run on PCs.

Tried Grand Theft Auto and while it may be the greatest game ever, in concept, IMO, it didn't work well for me on this laptop - the touchpad wouldn't control the vehicles smoothly - it was like a drunk guy leaning over to one side, worse and worse, then going back the other way.

(Heck, maybe I was drunk.)

I like the role-playing games too, but man, I think back to the time I got 'Half Life' - it was a revelation.

some of it is worse yet, i.e. fathers teaching the underage daughters how "to please a man."

Posted by: Doug at June 8, 2008 3:03 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...Wait!

My dad taught me how to select the best bass boat, riding mower, and big-screen TV when I was young. Isn't that how you "please a man?"

*shudder*

Someone will probably teach Warren Jeffs how to "please a man" in prison. And though I'm not a vengeful person, there is something to be said about what goes around coming around.

Reality - polygamy is fringe enough as it is, but polygamy with KIDS? That takes fringe to a whole new level. To Jill's credit, I think this stuff is a weeeeee bit extreme, even for her. =)

That's why I rather like games like Guild Wars and WoW when playing rpg's. There's nothing quite like pwning teh n00bz.

Polygamy - bad.

Dads that don't protect their daughters - bad.

Men that take advantage of women, especially young, underage women - real bad.

Those who call evil good and good evil - hopeless.

Be glad for those who would protect the girls' rights. Be glad for the Roe decision of the courts and those who would protect womens' rights.

Allowing women to commit grievous crimes against their own children and claim it is their "right" as some sort of placebo to give us to ease the pain of being unrespected due to our gender is not some boon to women. Please, don't do me any favors.

So Doug,

Are you saying that what those men did to those 12, 13 and 14 year old girls, was "objectively" wrong?;)

Hooves-in-Maw. Nice to see you again. I recommended a similar link at the same site: http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/ it's a blog by Brooke Adams who seems to be quite fair.

Meant to say I recommended a similar link at another message board. Sorry, Andy

Are you saying that what those men did to those 12, 13 and 14 year old girls, was "objectively" wrong?;)

MK, I'm saying I don't think their reasons for doing it are good enough to trump the girls' rights and desires.

"Those who call evil good and good evil - hopeless."

Oh Hisman no one is ever hopeless.

Jess:

Continuing to call good evil and evil good is a hopeless position to be in.

Of course, repentance is always an option.

Promoting adoption from the Sunday quote:

Then the king said, "Do not kill him, but give the baby to the woman who wants him to live, for she is his mother!"

~ I Kings 3:16-27, New Living translation

Janet,

I love the Sunday quote! It has always been one of my fav's!

This is for a different thread, but it's not letting me post there. About Edyt: I agree with ts on this one. Kinda. I usually can't stand 9 out of 10 of the people I come across on a given day, but I still do my best to treat them as I would want to be treated, just because. But keep in mind, ts, that just because he thinks that right and wrong are purely subjective (I do myself, to a certain degree, but I think there are things which are just so far to one side within the spectrum of gray they ARE absolutes) doesn't mean he would act in a manner unbecoming. You can be a moral relativist and still consistently act in a manner which would still be considered highly moral by most people. So even when it IS black and white, it isn't REALLY.

Was there supposed to be a point made for PL Jill with this cartoon?
What would it be?
That girls shouldn't be forced into marriage, raped by their 'husbands' and impregnated? Couldn't be that. That would be one of the 'sacred' things that feminists dared to speak out against.

Well Sally, you're only supposed to have sex with only one person your entire life. These guys had sex with several women. Maybe that's it?

I told my boyfriend spirituality is a big factor in who I marry. He called me superficial. I want a new boyfriend. Or girlfriend. There tends to be a lack of spiritual people in this world so I want to broaden my horizons. Anyone? Anyone?

Whose Doyle?

I'm only spiritual if I'm listening to good music/experiencing the awe-inspiring glory of nature. :(

Jess,

"There tends to be a lack of spiritual people in this world so I want to broaden my horizons. Anyone? Anyone?"

I'm just gonna go ahead and say this; what about Dan? He's a really nice, intelligent guy who is definitely trying to figure the whole spirituality thing out (I think). And you both go to school in MA! There ya go :)

Oooooooh...

Jess and Dan,
Sittin' in a tree...

sorry, couldn't help myself!

BTW MK, I'm going to out of town from tomorrow till a week from Wednesday, so I don't know how much I'll be on the blog to moderate, FYI.

Bobby,

Deserter!

Bobby,

We shall miss you!

Jess: 1:14: I told my boyfriend spirituality is a big factor in who I marry. He called me superficial. I want a new boyfriend. Or girlfriend. There tends to be a lack of spiritual people in this world so I want to broaden my horizons. Anyone? Anyone?

Good for you, Jess. His statement is one of the goofier things I've heard in a long time. You deserve better, for sure!

Bobby,

We shall miss you!
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at June 9, 2008 9:48 AM

True, but he's still a deserter!

LOL, MK. Well, I'll only be gone for a week, and I"ll probably be ab;e to get online, just not as much (I'll be at both my parents and my in-laws). Of course, at the end of tech month I'm going up to Halifax for a week, so who knows if they even have computers in Canada, much less the internet. How DO Patricia and Leah blog?

This cartoon is funny - in a weird sort of way. I have this picture in my head of 12 year-old girls dressed in big cotton dresses with pillows stuffed underneath, trick-or-treating on Halloween. Could it be the next costume craze?

I told my boyfriend spirituality is a big factor in who I marry. He called me superficial. I want a new boyfriend. Or girlfriend. There tends to be a lack of spiritual people in this world so I want to broaden my horizons. Anyone? Anyone?

Funny, but I can relate to that on the opposite side. I won't date anyone who is spiritual. Only atheists and agnostics, and maybe a Buddhist, as long as he/she doesn't try to get too spiritual with me about everything. On the atheist forums I visit, inter-religious marriages always seem a bit problematic. Usually one person doesn't get to voice their opinion as often, and a lot of people don't even tell their kids that they have different beliefs.

I agree with you Edyt that a similar spiritual outlook is important for a relationship to work. I hope my comment to Jess didn't offend you. I didn't mean to.

Janet,

Oh no. I think his statement was goofy too. I think two people should be relatively compatible in what they most care about. People who are passionate about spirituality should be with someone who is also passionate about it. Same with politics. If you're an radical Democrat, marrying a radical Republican probably won't be a good idea for a relationship.

Bobby, Halifax rocks, and yeah, they got all kind of computers there.

Usually one person doesn't get to voice their opinion as often, and a lot of people don't even tell their kids that they have different beliefs.

My friend and her ex had a baby together. He hates Catholics. I mean HATES them for whatever reason. Well, she is Catholic and wanted their daughter baptized. She didn't even tell him about it, and it was this big thing, so she got their daughter baptized and I don't even think he knows to this day and their daughter is almost 2. I mean, he's a deadbeat dad anyway, but they were LIVING TOGETHER at the time she took to get the kid baptized and he just, didn't know. Needless to say, that relationship failed and reaffirmed my belief that I want to be with someone with similar religious beliefs. I'm pretty opinionated and strong-willed (as though you couldn't tell) so I really couldn't see myself secretly baptizing our child and just not telling the dad.

I'm pretty opinionated and strong-willed (as though you couldn't tell)

:: laughing :: You rascal.

But yeah, two people really having different beliefs would be a hig hurdle.