I wish they'd stop calling her a man.

"I feel it's not a male or female desire to have a child. It's a human need. I'm a person and I have the right to have a biological child," he said.

Ya gotta love the sense of entitlement that people feel they have these days...I HAVE THE RIGHT!!!! Wonder if he stamped his little foot when he said this!

And why are they saying the baby is a girl? Maybe the baby doesn't want to be a girl. She's a person. She has the right to be a boy if she wants! Maybe they should hold off naming "it" until it decides what "it" wants to be when "it" grows up...

All I can say is "PHOOEY!"

Just watched the video...suddenly He/She is camera shy??????

What's the baby going to call him/her?

Mommy?
Daddy?

Maybe a little of both:
Moddy? Dammy?

Children are a BLESSING, not a right. This poor baby wasn't even conceived naturally, if you get my meaning.

Okay, so when did she become a father, at conception or at birth? ; )

OK, wow there are just so many issues here.

The first is the question of what exactly makes a man or woman. To me, lopping off your breasts and dressing like a man is negated if you want to want to be pregnant and give birth.

It seems to me a big like having his cake and eating it too.

While I understand that there are definitely desireable social constructs to being a man, it seems absurd that one would deny all aspects of her femininity save for the one thing that actually makes her female.

I have no doubt that transexualism exists. I've known several people who are struggling with the issue. The main difference between them and this person is that my friends are nearly horrified by the body parts they feel are wrong.

To me this person simply illustrates the part of our society that literally embraces the "you can be anything you want!" mentality. Think it sucks to live in society as a woman? Well you don't have to!

I think this has much less to do with gender identity and much more to do with a sense of entitlement.

LizfromNebraska, you wrote: "Children are a BLESSING, not a right."

Not a right? Do you mean that government should be able to forbid some of its citizens from having children?

Posted by Lauren:
save for the one thing that actually makes her female.

I hope you'll be informing all those cancer survivors and any others who've had hysterectomies that they are no longer female.

SoMG,

Not a right? Do you mean that government should be able to forbid some of its citizens from having children?

No, it means that people don't have the right to have children by any means.

Being pro life is not about the right to every women to have children.

It's about the right of every child to have life.

If a woman is BLESSED with the GIFT of a child, then that child's right to be born should be protected at all costs.

You're confusing what "rights" we are fighting for.

Posted by Lauren:*
"...save for the one thing that actually makes her female."

I hope you'll be informing all those cancer survivors and any others who've had hysterectomies that they are no longer female.

*Lauren's quotation clarified

Weird.

Congrats to him.

I don't know what some of you are so up in arms about. He gave birth, he didn't choose to abort. You should be dancing in the streets right now.

mk wrote:

"Being pro life is not about the right to every women to have children."

So, all those forced sterilizations of the "mentally defective" carried out in the past are OK? (And you call prochoicers eugenicists?) And the government can put contraceptives in the water or force women to take them?

And it would be just fine with the pro-life side.

Thanks for clarifying the "pro-life" position.

..what people will do for selfish reasons. The media is really confusing the public by calling her a man. Men can't deliver babies..

This entire thing is just bizarre, to say the least.

This baby is going to grow up under a set of high weirdness factor circumstances and God only knows how confusing it's going to be for her.

"It's not nice to fool Mother Nature."
(echoes of those old margarine commercials from years ago...)

And I thought my hermaphrodite cat had issues....

So what? This guy had a baby. He didn't have an abortion. Why do you care?

mk --

Ya gotta love the sense of entitlement that people feel they have these days...I HAVE THE RIGHT!!!!

lauren --

I think this has much less to do with gender identity and much more to do with a sense of entitlement.

Jasper --

..what people will do for selfish reasons.

These statements are absolutely hilarious coming from a group of people who feel totally entitled to tell everyone else in the world what they can and can't do with their private parts.

And the fact that you're all so upset over A BIRTH adds a whole 'nother level of ironic hilarity. How can GIVING LIFE ever be called "selfish?"

"Children are a BLESSING, not a right. This poor baby wasn't even conceived naturally, if you get my meaning"

What a coincidence! My sister and I were just talking about abortion last night and she said the exact same thing. She's pro-life by the way as is the rest of my family.

Back to the story, I think it's good that we have a baby being born into a family that must really want and love her. They went through so much, they risked so much, they faced so much angry opposition to have this baby if this baby isn't loved to the fullest then I don't know who is.

"So what? This guy had a baby"

this is not a guy reality. this is a women, men cannot have babies.

"Ya gotta love the sense of entitlement that people feel they have these days...I HAVE THE RIGHT!!!! Wonder if he stamped his little foot when he said this!"

Like this moo... I mean mother... in a grocery store got into a fight with a cashier because she was young, had five kids, was pregnant with another and was using food stamps. I guess the cashier said something to her and she yelled, "I wanted a big family, it's not my fault my husband can't afford it!"

Yes it is your fault. And you think if her husband couldn't afford she would get a job too at some point. I think if you can't afford to feed your child it is child neglect.

So many people today have kids and think everyone else should bow to them. Like those articles, "How much should a stay at home mom make." Oh a SAHM is a chef, chauffeur, nanny... If these workers did their jobs half as bad as most of these SAHM's do they would be fired in half a second.

When I worked at the daycare one mom who we called because her child was really sick said, "What are you calling me for call DSS." That's just disgusting.

Reality: No one is saying he/she,whatever, shouldn't have had a baby. No one is "upset" that the child was BORN. It's just the bizarre circumstances (and you've got to admit that they ARE bizarre)under which the birth took place and the "vessel" that birthed the child.

It's not like this takes place on a daily basis.

This has nothing to do with abortion. He/she WANTED to get pregnant, and did.

You don't find it the least bit ODD that this woman took hormones to be a male, had her breasts removed, grew a beard, then decided to get inseminated and give birth???????

Obviously in your "reality" this is perfectly normal.

This is nothing but a weird science project.

Mike everyone here is saying he was a woman. He had a uterus, everything, so I don't get what's so bizarre about it. I know plenty of manly looking women who have babies. Should they not be able to?

Jess: Do all these "manly looking women" you're referring to grow beards, take male hormones, get their breasts removed, and then decide they want to be mothers?

I think not.

http://www.switched.com/2007/12/18/woman-forces-toddler-to-smoke-posts-on-myspace-gets-arrested/2

If you think Thomas Beatie shouldn't have a baby then the woman in the above link certainly shouldn't have one either. Yeah, your child is so going to take care of me in my old age... especially when they die at 34 of lung cancer.

Speaking of which I once saw a boy about 10 years old smoking a cigarette and a woman who looked like his mother walking down the street with him. Does anyone else think this is child abuse?

"Jess: Do all these "manly looking women" you're referring to grow beards, take male hormones, get their breasts removed, and then decide they want to be mothers?"

Pretty close.

You don't know many female bodybuilder do you?

http://usversusthem.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/female-bodybuilder.jpg

I think the huge burly biker dude who lives across the street from me may be preggo.
Do you know him?

No, probably not. Why, are you going to protest outside his house or something? Although I don't know what you expect him to do now that he's already preggers. Abort?

The media is really confusing the public by calling her a man. Men can't deliver babies..

I agree, Jasper. Call her a woman and be done with it.

One of the points regarding this situation is that people with transgender issues are struggling with a psychological disorder. Unfortunately the majority in the field of psychiatry have caved in to homosexual activists and do not address homosexual activity and transgender issues as the disorders that they are for fear of being labeled "homophobic".

Children are entitled to a stable home with a mother and a father. Instead they have become a commodity to be wanted or not wanted at the whim of misguided and confused adults. No one has a "right" to a child -- they are a gift from God.

Doug and Jasper, don't male sea horses give birth? Maybe she's a sea horse? I wish I were a unicorn : (

"No one has a "right" to a child -- they are a gift from God."

Then why does God sometimes give these gifts to the worst people?

I don't think babies are a gift from God, I think they're little humans who grow in a uterus after conception.

Like this moo... I mean mother... in a grocery store got into a fight with a cashier because she was young, had five kids, was pregnant with another and was using food stamps. I guess the cashier said something to her and she yelled, "I wanted a big family, it's not my fault my husband can't afford it!"

Jess, Holy Crow.... I think the cashier was out of line there, if it was to the effect that, "you shouldn't be using food stamps..."

I agree that people should not do what they cannot afford, but regardless of what the cashier might think, that's not the time or place to be saying critical or embarrasing thing.

And to a customer, too - I'd think the cashier could get in big trouble for that.

Jess: If anything, he's a high risk pregnancy: Chain smoker, morbidly obese, drinks like a fish and I doubt his body can sustain the strain...but I wish him the best.

Jess, you're delightfully fanciful, and indeed - within the animal kingdom are some really gender-bending roles.

Beatie is still a woman, though.

You are all horrible people.

"He is WOMAN. Hear him ROAR".

Does this sound like fun?

Male seahorses compete with each other to become pregnant for three weeks (during which time they cannot move around to search for the best food), go through 72 hours of labour and exhausting final contractions to release up to 200 baby seahorses. During this process the natural colour of the male seahorse drains from his body and he becomes white and pasty looking.

I think I'd be "pasty looking," too, to say the least.

TVOR,

You are all horrible people.

ALL of us? Each and every one? Really? Imagine, we are all disagreeing here, and none of us has quite the same take on this story and yet you say we are ALL horrible people.

Interesting...

Dang... Mike, have to laugh - I was gonna do the "roar" thing too.

Eileen, you wrote: "Children are entitled to a stable home with a mother and a father. "

So should the government ban divorce? At least for families with children?

OK...so I'm, a HORRIBLE person for finding it weird that this female homo sapien mutilated her body with surgery, hormones, and God knows what else, then tuned in to her "maternal instincts" (term used in the loosest sense possible)and had a child.

So stone me.
I'll supply the stones.

PHYLO,

"Being pro life is not about the right to every women to have children."
*
So, all those forced sterilizations of the "mentally defective" carried out in the past are OK? (And you call prochoicers eugenicists?) And the government can put contraceptives in the water or force women to take them?

Wow! That's quite a leap you've made there. Hope you didn't hurt anything...

Did you use mirrors to get from "Pro life is not about the right of every women to have children" to "therefore pro lifers are for forced sterilization"...cuz that was some trick.

All I said was that pro life was about preserving life. Respecting life. You never asked what I or anyone else thought about forced steriliaztions. If you had, I'd have told you. But I wouldn't lump my views on forced sterilization under the heading of prolife.

That is like me saying that you are for choice and jumping to the conclusion that therefore you are for having sex with infants...what does one have to do with another?

I'm also against legalizing recreational drug use, but I don't consider that a pro life issue.

"Jess: If anything, he's a high risk pregnancy: Chain smoker, morbidly obese, drinks like a fish and I doubt his body can sustain the strain...but I wish him the best."

Whose the high risk pregnancy? Are you saying people who would be high risk shouldn't have kids?

I have to go right now but I'm interested in discussing this further. I'll be back tonight to answer or respond to anything so if you want to write something I'll read it later and respond. Happy Fourth of July!

"You are all horrible people."
Is that the worst you can do!?

I am speaking of what should be the case but is not sometimes. We live in an imperfect world but can't we try to aim for the good of the other and not just take for our own selfish ends?

My previous comment is for SoMG.

The only one who can settle this whole thing is Rosie O'Donnell.
I'll defer to her opinion.

Eileen, that's no answer. If "children are entitled to a stable home with a mother and a father" then government has an obligation to make sure they get one. That means government should ban divorce.

Banning divorce would provide a lot more children with stable homes with mothers and fathers than preventing gays from parenting ever would.

People's lack of respect for Thomas Beatie is no surprise, but it still hurts my heart. Really, my life was pretty confusing growing up because there were no non-straight alternatives that I knew of until Sunday school told me that it was wrong. Confusion is not going to kill this child. The most important thing here is that this child is WANTED and LOVED. I'm struck by the fact that pro-lifers here are proving how little they care about that, only that this life wasn't created in the way that they deem appropriate.

Maybe you should ask yourself why his life decisions unsettle you so much and invoke such hatred.

On EPSN about seven minutes from now - the Hot Dog eating contest from Nathan's in Brooklyn, NY.

Joey Chestnut, Takeru Kobayashi, Sonya "The Black Widow" Thomas...

"Maybe you should ask yourself why his life decisions unsettle you so much and invoke such hatred."

where is the hatred?

Jenny, actually, I think all children should be welcomed, not just "wanted". Wanted implies that if they are one day "unwanted", their value diminishes.

None of us pro-lifers have a problem with the child being born- at ALL. We're, of course, very happy that the child is here.

However, the thing I have seen people express concern about is what kind of a life that child is going to be exposed to. Is there something really so wrong about that? I know that I have seen abortion proponents sometimes express concern over a child who is living in a fanatical religious household, saying "those poor kids are going to be brainwashed!" What makes this any different?

When we make these types of observations, this is not the same as saying that we think that the child should have not been born, or 'should have been aborted', or any of those things that pro-abortionists here seem to assume we do. We're not like that. We have a totally different mindset than that, and our solutions are life-affirming.

If we were to do something to help, I think most of us would probably want to assist Thomas Beatie with some good counseling, love, support, because obviously she has some emotional issues from her past which need to be addressed. I do feel sorry for her.

Our solution to the problem would never be to have aborted the child, and we never say that we are expressing regret over the fact that the child exists. To say we do is to build a strawman argument.

I see, so we'll tolerate those trans* freaks as long as they're only being freaky in one way. The moment they insist that they have different motivations, it's time to start the hate-on.

Gay people have always parented. So have single people. Grandparents, aunts, uncles, and older siblings have stepped in when natural parents were either unable, unwilling, or deceased.
Children have been abandoned to their fate. They have been put on outgoing trains by starving mothers hoping they will be found and pitied.
Children have been shuttled to foster homes and survived orphanages that were hellholes. They have lived in abusive homes and with mental illness, alcoholism, drug addiction, and criminal activity. Good grief children were born in houses of prostitution and raised there.
Children were sold into slavery and indentured servitude. My grandmother and her sisters were farmed out as indentured servants because their widowed mother was to destitute to keep them. This was a common practice.
Children survived famines, war, and all kinds of turmoil.

Please give children credit, they have proved themselves remarkably resilient since creation.
I'm sure this baby will do fine. One thing we can never make assumptions about is how children will turn out and what their lives will be like.

Mike --

No one is saying he/she,whatever, shouldn't have had a baby.

Oh right, you're just saying that it's "selfish" to have a baby, and "entitled" to have a baby, and that being pro-life is "not about the right to have a baby."

But it's not that Mr. Beatie shouldn't have had a baby!! Heavens, no!

Please. What a pantload.

God Bless this family.

Mary, you're right. Thanks for keeping it in perspective!

VIDEO "FACE THE TRUTH"

http://prolifeaction.org/truth/index.htm

Mike

Okay, so when did she become a father, at conception or at birth? ; )

Posted by: Doug at July 4, 2008 8:30 AM

She became a mother at conception, Doug.

@ MIke: love the roar comment. Sweet!

Bethany: I think all children should be welcomed, not just "wanted". Wanted implies that if they are one day "unwanted", their value diminishes. Excellent!!!

SoMG, I am afraid we are arguing from two different perspectives: I, from a philosophical one and you, from a pragmatic view. Government can not solve all of our societal ills.

Thomas Beatie is not the first "pregnant man." He's just the first one most people have heard about. Here's a Village Voice article regarding a similar situation in 2000 and if you prowled around the internet you'd probably come across others. These children are very much wanted and very much loved, which should be the situation into which EVERY child is born. Of course, "pro-lifers" just figure as long as the kid is ALIVE they're on top of the world. Unwanted, abused, neglected? Oh, no problem, they'll get over it! Someone actually had the nerve to write that in a "pro-life" blog, which sickened me.

Biologically, yes, Thomas Beatie is a woman. Any transgendered person will tell you that. Legally, however, he's a man and that's what counts. Congratulations to the Beatie family on their new arrival.

"These children are very much wanted and very much loved, which should be the situation into which EVERY child is born."

otherise what? they should be aborted? how loving...

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death."

To transgender oneself is simply rebellion against the Creator, full blown. It's saying, "God, you made me a woman/man, I want to be a man/woman, I don't trut you, you don't know what you're doing, I'll make myself into my own image." God therefore has no choice, apart from repentance, but to let that person have their way and abandons them, lost forever, alone. This is hell.

We cannot serve two masters.

I agree Jasper.
This is a sick situation in which to have a child. This baby should have been taken away from these two people. IMO, this is child abuse.

Biologically, yes, Thomas Beatie is a woman. Any transgendered person will tell you that. Legally, however, he's a man and that's what counts. Congratulations to the Beatie family on their new arrival.

Posted by: Trish at July 4, 2008 1:56 PM

What kind of reasoning is this? A person is a certain gender because they say so? Beattie is a woman. Period. She has the chromosomes of a woman. The fact that she chose to remove her secondary sexual features does not make her a man.

Jess: Then why does God sometimes give these gifts to the worst people?

That is a question that goes hand in hand with "why does God permit evil?" To bring about a greater good.

I struggled with your very question after I lost a baby to anencephaly and then could not get pregnant because of severe endometriosis. I finally came to know that God wants good things for everyone and that includes me. All I could do was to join my suffering with the Cross. His Will be done. We will have to wait for some questions to be answered in the next life. Once I was finally able to surrender everything, including my bitterness, God could give to me what He desired: a beautiful baby girl that we adopted almost 4 years ago. Jesus, I Trust in You.

Biologically, yes, Thomas Beatie is a woman. Any transgendered person will tell you that. Legally, however, he's a man and that's what counts. Congratulations to the Beatie family on their new arrival.

Could this guy be legally considered a feline, if he so chose?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/25/35580398_d5b7906ee4.jpg

Eileen, Beautiful!

Eileen, I am so sorry for your loss! What a powerful testimony you are...I agree with your thoughts exactly.

Bethany,
Yikes!!!

Janet, I wonder if I could fashion a shell, put it on, and change my legal species status to "turtle"?

That is a question that goes hand in hand with "why does God permit evil?" To bring about a greater good.

I struggled with your very question after I lost a baby to anencephaly and then could not get pregnant because of severe endometriosis. I finally came to know that God wants good things for everyone and that includes me. All I could do was to join my suffering with the Cross. His Will be done. We will have to wait for some questions to be answered in the next life. Once I was finally able to surrender everything, including my bitterness, God could give to me what He desired: a beautiful baby girl that we adopted almost 4 years ago. Jesus, I Trust in You.

Posted by: Eileen at July 4, 2008 3:06 PM

Eileen you are very advanced spiritually (not that I know because of experience, by any means!).
I wish I could achieve this - it takes a special grace! God bless you!

Bethany, Knowing your creative skills, you could do it in a flash! Lol!

Jill: Where are the Stars and Stripes for Independence Day???????

Speaking of Independence Day, I heard an interview last night with David McCullough and Milton Rosenberg on WGN AM 720 radio. He was discussing his book, "1776: America and Britain at War". I'm not a huge history buff but his stories of battles and what a huge personal sacrifice each of these men made for their country and our freedom were truly inspiring. I have to read the book!

Patricia,
That grace is there for the asking -- take time to pray every day. If you are a Catholic, partake of the Sacraments as often as possible: the Eucharist and Confession. God bless you too!

Eileen,

God-bless you.

Eileen: thank you for the encouragement. I am Catholic and do receive the Sacraments but it's been a long hard haul lately! It's easy to get discouraged. Sometimes I feel like God's punching bag!

Janet; 1776! that's the date I was looking for this morning when my 11 year old asked me when the US came into being! I couldn't remember!
1867 is Canada's birthday year!

Eileen 3:27: Patricia,
That grace is there for the asking -- take time to pray every day. If you are a Catholic, partake of the Sacraments as often as possible: the Eucharist and Confession. God bless you too!

How true! We all need a reminder sometimes. That also reminds me of the beauty of visits to the Blessed Sacrament (Eucharistic Adoration). I may just go right now.... :)

ok - when I clicked on the video on this post I noticed this story about a 72 year old Indian woman giving birth to twins because they WANTED a male heir! This just gets more incredible all the time!
Here's the link:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ActiveAging/story?id=5309018&page=1

Janet; 1776! that's the date I was looking for this morning when my 11 year old asked me when the US came into being! I couldn't remember!
1867 is Canada's birthday year!

Posted by: Patricia at July 4, 2008 3:37 PM

What are we going to do with you Canadians? (Just kidding!) I had no clue Canada's birthday year is 1867, or the history behind it, nor have I ever visited, although I would love to. I bet 80% of American high schoolers don't know the right answer either, but at least they know the important stuff, like the best brands and coolest styles of condoms.

I saw the story you mentioned from India, but didn't look at the video. Is that the silliest example of narcissism ever? Maybe someone from India could explain the thought process of this couple.

I hope you are feeling OK. I'll keep you in my special prayers. God bless you!

Hm,

I think a communications breakdown has occurred here.

I don't understand the hostility towards her for choosing to have a baby from those here, but they seem to be religious reasons. I don't think sexual orientation has any affect on parenting skills.

I think the reaction to "having children is not a right" has been overblown. I would rather say that it is not a "right" to have a child in the sense that a couple should not be guaranteed a child by the government because they want one. The opposition to his statement was not that anyone should be forced. My thing is that someone can feel free to undergo treatments to become pregnant but that is because it is a desire and not a "right." It's not a right in the sense that we all should be guaranteed one, but you can safely say it is a right in the sense that those who become pregnant or wish to become pregnant through their own means shouldn't be stopped from doing so.

Does that make sense? I think the idea of "rights" is kind of complicated and it's both a moral and often a legal thing too so we get into some weird territory.

I guess an easy way to say that is that we have the right to the pursuit of happiness, but we don't have the right to "happiness."

PIP,

I feel the same way. Which is what I meant by His/Her sense of entitlement. He/She WANTED a baby and by God He/She got one. Same with the 70 year old women that Patricia mentioned.

That said, once a pregnancy occurs no one has the "right" to stop it. They have that LEGAL right now, but they shouldn't.

It should not now, or ever, be the governments right to aid a women to get pregnant, remain unpregnant or end a pregnancy.

Pro choice people complain that we want the government to force our beliefs on everyone, but it is actually their side that wants the governments blessing. They want birth control handed out for free, taught in public schools, abortions paid for in the military, for poor women...THIS, is the government getting involved.

WE are the ones that want the government to back off. Rape is illegal. But I don't veiw the government as controlling "rape". Making something that is harmful or deadly to a large segment of society is NOT forcing their beliefs on that society. It is protecting the weaker members of the society. Does anyone here honestly think that child rape should be made legal, because making it illegal was letting the government force it's views on us???

Yeah the "legislating morality" thing is another messy trap. What is the definition of morality? Would things like rape be a moral issue? etc.

And oh yeah government money given to kill the unborn is a horrible idea--one of our primary candidates consistently voted against it (Biden). But as I support universal health care, I think things like prenatal care should be supported. For elective procedures like plastic surgery and in vitro, though, those costs should be independent of government interference.

I think you must legislate morality when someone is being harmed by a third party.

The reason abortion is so muddied, is that not every one agrees that the unborn is a person, or that even if it is a person, that it has the same rights as it's mother.

If you think like a pro choicer then the mother is getting harmed. If you think like a pro lifer, then the baby is getting harmed.

When it's rape, we're pretty much all in agreement on who is getting hurt. Same with drunken driving, or murder. It's not so clear with things like suicide, or drug use. It's also why gay marriage has caused such a ruckus. It's a purely moral topic, where no one is being physically harmed. The harm that is being done, or perceived to be done is very subjective. Contrary to what Doug says, most of humanity agrees that some things are objectively wrong. Like rape, incest, murder, etc.

So it really comes down to figuring out whether or not the unborn are truly persons, worthy of all the appointed rights that the rest of humanity gets.

PIP: it's not so much the parenting skills I call into question, it's the idea that a child needs a mother and a father.
Men and women are complementary - they are different but compliment each other in ways that the other cannot do.
As such, men as fathers and women as mothers offer their children different charisms that the opposite sex cannot fulfill, no matter how hard they try. Nature/God has designed it so.
I believe a child has the right to have a mother and a father. Obviously, this will not always be the case, but we should endeavour to see that it is the norm.
To deliberately place a child into a family so aberrant as Beatties, is completely wrong. I cannot fathom how this child will not grow up confused about her own gender and the role of men and women. To me, this is abusive.

I hope you are feeling OK. I'll keep you in my special prayers. God bless you!

Posted by: Janet at July 4, 2008 3:55 PM

Thank you Janet. Still having some weird stuff going on, but I will try to keep my face to the Lord. Feeling better though, if that makes any sense at all! lol

What is the essence of America? Finding and maintaining that perfect, delicate balance between freedom "to" and freedom "from." ~Marilyn vos Savant, in Parade

Intellectually I know that America is no better than any other country; emotionally I know she is better than every other country. ~Sinclair Lewis

If you want a symbolic gesture, don't burn the flag; wash it. ~Norman Thomas

ok MK; you stretched Jill's blog wider!

Patricia,

ok MK; you stretched Jill's blog wider!

mwahahahahah....I am the GREAT AND POWERFUL MK!!!!

(Pay no attention to the woman behind that curtain...)

are you bald and elderly too?

Happy belated Canada Day, Patricia. I know it was three days ago.......

Eileen at July 4, 2008 11:28 AM post -- that's what my point was about children being a blessing, what you said.

mk: 4:31: So it really comes down to figuring out whether or not the unborn are truly persons, worthy of all the appointed rights that the rest of humanity gets.

Amen! Love your photos!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

What is the essence of America? Finding and maintaining that perfect, delicate balance between freedom "to" and freedom "from." ~Marilyn vos Savant, in Parade

Interesting. Freedom of religion / Freedomfrom religion? Right now the most vocal liberals want freedom from religion. No balance there.

Gay people have always parented. So have single people. Grandparents, aunts, uncles, and older siblings have stepped in when natural parents were either unable, unwilling, or deceased.
Children have been abandoned to their fate. They have been put on outgoing trains by starving mothers hoping they will be found and pitied.
Children have been shuttled to foster homes and survived orphanages that were hellholes. They have lived in abusive homes and with mental illness, alcoholism, drug addiction, and criminal activity. Good grief children were born in houses of prostitution and raised there.
Children were sold into slavery and indentured servitude. My grandmother and her sisters were farmed out as indentured servants because their widowed mother was to destitute to keep them. This was a common practice.

Posted by: Mary at July 4, 2008 12:43 PM
...............................

Indentured or farmed out Mary? There is a difference. Working for one's keep as long as they are living with a family is not the same as being contracted for a specific period of time to work for another. 'Farmed out' children could return to their families. Indentured servants could not until their contract was fulfilled.
Are you sure that your grandmother was indentured? What time frame and part of the country are we talking about here?

Sally,

This was at the turn of the century in Michigan. I don't know if there was a formal contract or how these families were even found and the arrangements made. The families accepted the girls until the age of 18. It was not their option to return to their mother when they wanted or to refuse to leave their home and be placed in another home in the first place. They were to be provided for but were to work for their keep. My grandmother functioned as a domestic, my great aunt worked as a farmhand and domestic. She travelled with the family to Florida and worked their fields.

Sally,

This was at the turn of the century in Michigan. I don't know if there was a formal contract or how these families were even found and the arrangements made. The families accepted the girls until the age of 18. It was not their option to return to their mother when they wanted or to refuse to leave their home and be placed in another home in the first place. They were to be provided for but were to work for their keep. My grandmother functioned as a domestic, my great aunt worked as a farmhand and domestic. She travelled with the family to Florida and worked their fields.

Posted by: Mary at July 4, 2008 7:12 PM
...............................

I see. Grandma and sisters were basically fostered out. The girls were most likely sent to extended family and/or family friends. If great grandma had wanted them home, they could have gone home. If one had run off and married before the age of 18, the foster parents had no legal right to drag them back. They would have become their husbands property. Being indentured was another kettle of fish and was offically made illegal in the 1880s I believe.
Do you know what became of great grandma? How did great grandpa die? Did the family manage to stay in contact with each other? You mention your ancestors quite frequently. Are you interested in genealogy?

MK I agree! Oh and happy 4th everyone. Reminds me of Paul Simon:

We come on a ship they called the Mayflower
We come on a ship that sailed the moon
We come in the ages most uncertain hour
And sing an American Tune

Oh, well it's Alright
It's Alright it's Alright
You can be forever blessed
Still tomorrow's gonna be another working day
And I'm trying to get some rest.
That's all I'm trying, to get some rest..

PIP, happy 4th... Simon and Garfunkel are great!

Sally,

No they were not fostered out. I know for certain these were not family members or friends.
They were not in a position to run off and marry and none did until after the age of 18. My grandmother married at 20, my great aunt at 18.
It may have been made illegal, but that didn't necessarily stop the practice, especially when you had families in such desperate circumstances with very few choices. It was certainly not referred to as "indentured servitude" but in practice it was. My grandmother and her sisters were considered indebted to the families that helped them.
My great grandma worked as a domestic for 50 cents a day. My great grandpa committed suicide which put the family in such desperate straits.
I would imagine the family stayed in touch though my great aunt was working the farm of the family she was sent to in Florida.
Genealogy and history absolutely fascinate me.

"This is a sick situation in which to have a child. This baby should have been taken away from these two people. IMO, this is child abuse."

Just like divorce is sick and unnatural? If it isn't unnatural, then people weren't meant to be monogamous. Do you realize how much abortion hurts children? If these two people who are obviously devoted to each other and their child should have their child taken away from them then so shouldn't divorced couples.

PIP,

"And I dreamed I was dying
I dreamed that my soul rose unexpectedly
And looking back down at me
Smiled reassuringly
And I dreamed I was flying
And high up above my eyes could clearly see
The Statue of Liberty
Sailing away to sea
And I dreamed I was flying..."

The relationship of 2 lesbians who decided to make a baby by artificial insemination being lauded by MSM and Oprah as "a MAN having a baby" is the most despicable promotion of the homosexual agenda I have ever witnessed. They keep repeating this over and over that this is a man, this is a WOMAN.

I will recommend to any of you that are wondering whether it matters if people marry or why married mothers and fathers are important to children a book by Glen T. Stanton Why Marriage Matters ((Pinon Press). This topic has been researched for 50 years, the research is solid even by those who did not want to believe in the results and tried to disprove the benefits of marriage. If you really care about children and what is best for them you should read this with an open heart and mind (if you want look up the extensive bibliography in the back of the book). I want to offer this to every person who is pro-life and has struggled to understand why mothers and fathers in committed, stable marriages matter and to those who are searching for answers about why marriage. Then I want to ask you to examine the following questions. "Why is marriage under such attack in the United States?" Why is it so important to homosexual, lesbian and transgender people to destroy traditional marriage? Do you really think this is about honoring the institution of marriage? Do you understand that they will only be satisfied once marriage is meaningless, there is no moral code and nothing is off limits? Read The Homosexual Agenda by Alan Sears and Craig Osten (Broadman and Holman Publishers). God help our nation.

If these two people who are obviously devoted to each other and their child should have their child taken away from them then so shouldn't divorced couples.

Posted by: Jess at July 4, 2008 11:09 PM

Nope. These two women, should have been discouraged from taking the course of action they did - with the turkey baster.
One of them is not well emotionally or mentally for that matter and appears to have some kind of gender-identity disorder for which she requires treatment.
BTW I'm with making divorce illegal too.

Mike- seriously, I think I may have dated you in high school. Where are you from?

Patricia- if your opinion of child abuse is a child being raised in a home full of love, where the parents are devoted to each other and their marriage, where that child was wanted so badly her parents risked their comfortable and private life to do so...well I think you are cold hearted. Yes, her life might be different than other kids'. Her dad looks like a dad, and her mom looks like a mom, so I don't see how it is that huge of a deal in the long run. Perhaps the child will grow up...tolerant and accepting of others??

Jenny- love what you said

prolife L:
Of course the feminist strategy is to make marriage useless because of course, marriage is a patriarchial institution that enslaves women and gives them no self-autonomy.
If marriages between men, women, goats and trees can be accepted then really marriage isn't anything special anymore.
Donald DeMarco predicted with the gay marriage issue that in the near future no one will be married and that church marriages will no longer be recognized either. I think he will be proven correct.

Her dad looks like a dad, and her mom looks like a mom, so I don't see how it is that huge of a deal in the long run. Perhaps the child will grow up...tolerant and accepting of others??

Jenny- love what you said

Posted by: ali at July 4, 2008 11:29 PM

Excuse me, but her "dad" looks like a woman with a beard to me. Which is BTW, what she IS.
Secondly, I think this child will grow up confused about men and women. Her father has a uterus! You don't think that is confusing. This is crazy beyond belief. If this couple wants to pretend like this, fine and dandy. But to bring a child into this situation is reprehensible.

Now, if you were like us Gallifreyans, this wouldn't be a problem. You see, on Gallifrey we had what were called "Looms" which carried out procreation for us Time Lords. My culture was of the opinion that sex and pregnancy were obsolete and unnecessary and allowed us to have emotional attachments that were unnecessary and harmful to our sense of judgment and justice as we policed Time and Space as we travelled through Time.

All we ever had to do was donate a genetic sample at a certain age and the Council would take care of the rest- setting up a perfect genetic match to produce children from that sample who were then raised by the Academies instead of with their parents in order to eliminate emotions and empathy and to prevent attachments from being made which complicated our duties.

"BTW I'm with making divorce illegal too."

That would sure be bad for you Patricia : (

Lol, I wonder how many of these men would choose jail over marriage?

"BTW I'm with making divorce illegal too."

That would sure be bad for you Patricia : (

Lol, I wonder how many of these men would choose jail over marriage?

Posted by: Jess at July 5, 2008 1:21 AM

Nope. I think divorce is very harmful to the spouse abandoned and especially to the children. It's up to the two adults to make it work out. Of course, if one isn't really an adult then you have a problem....
Your last statement is nonsensical. Why would a man have to choose jail over marriage? He is free to marry, no one forces him. And BTW, it is women who do the majority of divorcing.

Patricia,

How would the child even know her dad has a uterus? And how do we know that Mr. Beatie will not, now that he has a biological child, finish the transformation sometime in the future?

Maybe looking through the baby books and photo albums(and reruns of Oprah)and seeing photos of "Daddy" carrying her while pregnant?

Ditto Carla

@JKeller:People like this just love to boast about how counter-cultural they are. I'm sure they will have no problem telling little Miss Beatie just what went on.

And if they do how will it affect her negatively? Perhaps her friends born of bigoted "traditional" parents will make fun of her and her family. Then it's bigotry that will screw up her worldview, not her parents' sexualities.

I would hope that this little girl and her family don't get teased or tormented. One can disagree vehemently with their lifestyle and still treat them with respect and courtesy.
I grew up in a traditional family. My children are growing up in a traditional family. The only bigotry my children have seen is from non Christians friends who make fun of my children for loving Jesus.

Contrary to what Doug says, most of humanity agrees that some things are objectively wrong. Like rape, incest, murder, etc.

That doesn't change anything, MK. It's still suubjective opinion at work. It is that agreement that is operative.

That doesn't change anything, MK. It's still subjective opinion at work.

Is that your subjective opinion, Doug? ;-)

And if they do how will it affect her negatively? Perhaps her friends born of bigoted "traditional" parents will make fun of her and her family. Then it's bigotry that will screw up her worldview, not her parents' sexualities.

Posted by: JKeller at July 5, 2008 10:46 AM

Nope. It will be the confusion she has between what she feels and knows is right (according to natural law) and what she sees and knows is not right (her parents crazy whacked out ideas of mothers fathers and sexuality) that will screw this kid up.
They will do it all by themselves.

I grew up in a traditional family. My children are growing up in a traditional family. The only bigotry my children have seen is from non Christians friends who make fun of my children for loving Jesus.

Posted by: Carla at July 5, 2008 11:13 AM

Yes, well Carla, being Christian is the new ghetto these days. I mean, can you believe your kids are THAT stupid to believe all that Jesus crap you and husband feed them?

If being a Christian is ghetto these days, bring it on.

Jesus is Lord, the Savior, Rose of Sharon, Prince of Peace, Mighty Warrior, Immanuel, Messiah, Lion of Judah, Lamb of God.....

I'll let Carla and Patricia and a few more names of the Son of God.

I love your post The Doctor. This is the direction our country and world is headed, a world full of heartless, immoral, disposible robots. No need for parents, families, morals, right or wrong like the Bible said "Each man did what he thought was right in his own eyes" Judges 17:6.
At this point I think we are where Paul said "For this cause God gave them up into vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly" Romans 1:26-27 WOW, how prophetic. Our prayers for our nation are critical. I think these lesbians did this to make a statement, how tragic for this innocent baby, to be a part of their experiment, when God's word is backed up by the research (see my previous post at 11:23pm).

Doug, 12:00 PM -- what is that agreement based upon but Natural Law?!

For those who think that it is a matter of gay people or people with gender disorder simply wanting to marry and raise a family like everyone else:
"A same-sex couple has, by definition, two persons at high risk for psychological disorders. The studies published in the Archives of General Psychiatry found that persons self-identified as homosexual in comparison to the general public had almost double the rate of suicidal ideation or attempts, substance abuse problems and psychological disorders. One of the studies found that 78.6% of the gay, lesbian or bisexual group suffered from multiple disorders.

And there are other problems: Domestic violence is more common among same-sex couples. Men with same-sex attractions are more likely to become infected with a STD, including HIV, hepatitis or HPV, which can lead to cancer. Thus, several studies suggest that 50% of men who have sex with men will become HIV positive before age 50."

This is from an interview of Dale O'Leary who was discussing things within the context of same-sex couples and adoption. But I think the info. is applicable to this discussion.

I can appreciate that there are people who want to be tolerant and we should love these people but to enable them in situations that are not mentally, emotionally or physically healthy is not real "love".

Patricia, Read Judith 8:25-27. I hope it helps!

Prayers and blessings!

Nope. It will be the confusion she has between what she feels and knows is right (according to natural law) and what she sees and knows is not right (her parents crazy whacked out ideas of mothers fathers and sexuality) that will screw this kid up.
They will do it all by themselves.

Maybe the kid won't be screwed up at all, but will learn to love people with all their faults. After all, we don't choose our parents, so I think it's more important to have a good relationship with them then point fingers at them for all the things they've done wrong, don't you, Patricia? I'm sure you wouldn't want your daughters pointing their finger at you saying how stupid you were for picking such a loser to marry and have kids with now would you? I hope God grants their child the grace he/she needs to love his/her parents despite whatever is deemed "wrong" with them.

"That doesn't change anything, MK. It's still subjective opinion at work."

Is that your subjective opinion, Doug? ;-)

Heh, no, Bethany, it's fact that people all over the world have opinions.

Eileen: what is that agreement based upon but Natural Law?!

Eileen, it's based on common desires. With some things, there is enormous commonality of desire, and almost no disagreement, no sentiment to the contrary.

With abortion it's not that way at all, of course - there there's mucho disagreement.

...My Comforter, My All in All, My Rock, My Deliverer, My Strength, My Song, My Refuge, My Good Shepard, My Life, My King...

Elizabeth, how did you get to be so wise at such a young and tender and pretty age?

I'm amazed at all the arguing over this topic. For me, it just seems crazy to say that a woman who has altered herself physically is now a "man."

Maybe the kid won't be screwed up at all, but will learn to love people with all their faults. After all, we don't choose our parents, so I think it's more important to have a good relationship with them then point fingers at them for all the things they've done wrong

Right on - you never know. Obviously, Beatie has had some major conflicted feelings, but it's not to say the child won't have a good parent there.

I hope the parents are good to the girl. There's tough enough times coming for the kid when other kids find out about all this....

My Strength, My Song,

Carla, I caught that out of the corner of my eye and thought it said, "My SoMG"...

Eileen: One of the studies found that 78.6% of the gay, lesbian or bisexual group suffered from multiple disorders.

Holy Fibonacci multiple, Batman!

.786 is the square root of .618..... awesome.

Bobby Bambino, are you out there....?

I'll let Carla and Patricia and a few more names of the Son of God.

Posted by: HisMan at July 5, 2008 12:55 PM

My all time fav - Master!

Doug, 2:32 p.m.

Why thank you!

And while I'm not totally convinced this person is truly transgendered, since many of the transgendered people I have seen dread their natural bodies doing anything identifiable to the that gender like growing breasts or getting their period, I do believe this person is seriously confused about a lot of things.

Nobody's parents are perfect, but I think that every child owes their parent the respect for the sacrifices their parent has made for them, and I do hope that this child feels loved by his/her parents and is strong enough to deal with the negative things his/her peers will say or do to him/her as a result of his/her parent's choices.

Thanks Eileen. I read it and I agree that I'm being tested, but for 20 years?!!!

Heh, no, Bethany, it's fact that people all over the world have opinions.

Heh, but Doug, isn't it your subjective opinion that the fact that people all over the world have differing opinions makes those opinions subjective? ;-)

I hope the parents are good to the girl. There's tough enough times coming for the kid when other kids find out about all this....

Posted by: Doug at July 5, 2008 2:32 PM

Yes, and that's the tragedy. It need not be had the parents not been so selfish in the first place to set up such a situation. The child deserves better than these two parents.

Yes, and that's the tragedy. It need not be had the parents not been so selfish in the first place to set up such a situation. The child deserves better than these two parents.

Yeah, my parents' friend grew up biracial in a time where such a thing was not considered acceptable. His parents were so selfish to put him in that situation. They should have just kept their heads down and let other people's racism dictate how they lived their lives, definitely.

Here's a question: Christians often refer to feeling "persecuted" for their beliefs, having people laugh at them because they believe in Jesus, etc. Do you consider it child abuse to raise a child in a Christian household, just because some ignorant people around the children will laugh at them for it? Or would you agree that the reactions of people around you is not a valid reason to avoid having children?

It need not be had the parents not been so selfish in the first place to set up such a situation. The child deserves better than these two parents.

Patricia, you don't know that. They may end up being great parents.

but Doug, isn't it your subjective opinion that the fact that people all over the world have differing opinions makes those opinions subjective? ;-)

No, Bethany, you rascal.

It's that morality is ideas and ideals, by definition things of the mind, not external to it.

Yes, and that's the tragedy. It need not be had the parents not been so selfish in the first place to set up such a situation. The child deserves better than these two parents.

Yeah, my parents' friend grew up biracial in a time where such a thing was not considered acceptable. His parents were so selfish to put him in that situation. They should have just kept their heads down and let other people's racism dictate how they lived their lives, definitely.

To compare this travesty with a child who had TWO parents of different races is ridiculous. Your friend grew up in a home with a MOTHER & a FATHER. It was a stable family. The parents were normal, but of different races.
This child will NOT have these advantages.
Races of people are equal. They are not emotionally and mentally disturbed as this woman who is pretending to be a father likely is.

Patricia,

Who are you to judge how those people parent? They may have problems themselves, but that doesn't mean you can't be a good parent just because you have your own personal issues to deal with. I can think of a lot more worse "parents" whose gender may fit the norm, but they have screwed up their kids wayyyyy worse than these 2 would. I don't know what kind of parents they will be, but I wouldn't presume to know either. I guess that's something we don't have in common.

Patricia,

I hope you similarly condemn single parents, and parents who have anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, codependency problems, and passionate religious/political views that are different from your own.

I second Alexandra's post.

Same sex attraction and gender identity disorder are psychological disorders. Why would you want to place a child in a situation like that? I submit that there are children who come from traditional -- mom and dad -- families that are dysfunctional but that is no argument for supporting these "non-traditional" families. Even Rosie O' Donnell admitted publicly that her son wanted a "daddy". Dale O'Leary has also cited a study in which a gay couple were raising a boy who wanted to buy a "mommy" after they had hired and fired several nannies because he was bonding emotionally with them. These men put the little boy in therapy. Now, tell me, who needs the therapy in this situation?!

Doug, if people are in agreement about the immorality of murder, rape, stealing, etc., it is their consciences speaking to them or Natural Law (placed in their hearts by their
Creator).

Patricia, that is a long time -- hang in there!

Prayers and blessings to all.

Eileen, I didn't say I wanted/didn't want something. But last time I checked, there aren't laws about who can be parents and who can't be other than abusive/neglectful situations. Oh, and I'm pretty sure if we did decide to legislate who could/couldn't be parents, we would see the abortion numbers go WAY UP, so how is that helpful?

P.S. The APA took homosexuality off its list of psychological disorders quite a while ago. Just as a heads up. But if you really want to include psychological problems with people who shouldn't have kids...I have a lot of anxiety attacks and probably have a yet to be diagnosed anxiety disorder (going to the doctor next week for it), but I'm still a parent. And a pretty awesome one at that.

Dale O'Leary has also cited a study in which a gay couple were raising a boy who wanted to buy a "mommy" after they had hired and fired several nannies because he was bonding emotionally with them. These men put the little boy in therapy. Now, tell me, who needs the therapy in this situation?!

That is so sad. :(

Elizabeth,
I know that homosexuality was taken off of the list but only after homosexual activists within and outside of the profession intimidated and pressured the APA. Many psychiatrists still believe that it is but are afraid of being labeled "homophobic".

As to your situation, I have a sister with the same problem and she is a good parent also. Psychological disorders vary in degree in regard to their effects mentally and physically. You are jumping to conclusions.

I'm not jumping to conclusions about anything, Eileen. If, as you believe, homosexuality is a mental disorder, than by your own explanation, they can still be good parents. Just as much as parents with depression, bipolar, anxiety, etc.

Elizabeth,

Exactly. How would this condemnation help lower the abortion rate?

I'm really not so sure, pip, but I'm SO glad you're back! With Amanda and Rae leaving, I was worried I would be allllll alone. :(

Aww thanks Elizabeth :)

Why did they leave?

Lol, it's a loooong story..you should facebook message them and they'll tell ya. I don't want to start something on here! Drama drama!

Haha wow. Must have been bad for them to have left.

Patricia,

Who are you to judge how those people parent? They may have problems themselves, but that doesn't mean you can't be a good parent just because you have your own personal issues to deal with. I can think of a lot more worse "parents" whose gender may fit the norm, but they have screwed up their kids wayyyyy worse than these 2 would. I don't know what kind of parents they will be, but I wouldn't presume to know either. I guess that's something we don't have in common.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at July 5, 2008 3:36 PM

ON the contrary I am not judging how they PARENT. It is the fact that a baby has been placed into a situation where there is a disturbed confused self-multilated woman pretending to be a father and another woman who has condoned this that is disturbing. The entire scenario has been presented as if this is NORMAL, WHOLESOME and LOVING. It is not.
It is aberrant and disturbing. It is in no way comparable to a normal family with a mother and a father.
What is worse is that the MSM is perpetrating this lie as if it were the most wonderful thing in the world.

It is aberrant and disturbing. It is in no way comparable to a normal family with a mother and a father.
What is worse is that the MSM is perpetrating this lie as if it were the most wonderful thing in the world.

Patricia, I agree. It is disturbing, and the fact that the MSM tries to normalize it makes it worse.

I don't really see people trying to play it off like it's normal at all, Patricia. I don't think it would be getting any attention if it were the norm right?

And as far as loving, what do you mean? The parents loving the child or what? Does gender determine the amount of love one has for their child? I guess I'm not sure what you mean with that part of the statement.

Well Bethany, I think it's part of the whole liberal agenda to prove that anyone can marry anyone/anything and that all that really matters is that the two people are self-fulfiled.
If these two people are happy why not? If Beatie decides next year she wants to marry her begonia, well that will probably be just fine too. If Beatie, Nancy and Harry the chimpanzee decide to marry that's gonna be terrific for this kid too. She learn to love animals because she'll have one for a parent!
Get it?!!!

Elizabeth, I'm really liking you today. Every time I read a post and get frantic (ex: Eileen still reading the DSM from 1970) you come right in and fight my fight!

I dont want to get more involved, after all I "quit" weeks ago- but I think we'd all benefit from increasing our opinion of what is "normal"- just saying, it comes off as muy judgmental when we deem things as bad because they go out of our boundaries of what SHOULD be. I was raised to be open-minded and I really thank my parents (one man, one woman, still married after 29 years) for that- hopefully this little girl will too!

I think we'd all benefit from increasing our opinion of what is "normal"- just saying, it comes off as muy judgmental when we deem things as bad because they go out of our boundaries of what SHOULD be.

Ali: this assumes of course that there is no normal. That we set what is normal and that what is normal for one person may not be normal for another. Just like right and wrong.
Sorry I don't buy that. Our culture has demonstrated that the most successful way to raise children is with a mother and a father. It is the best way to produce good citizens, and caring loving emotionally mature and stable adults for the next generation. This is not my opinion - it has been shown to work for centuries.
I don't intend to increase my opinion of what is normal. It doesn't mean that I don't think Beatie and her friend shouldn't be respected as persons - just that they should not be passing themselves off as a married couple and they shouldn't have kids.

Thanks ali! I do what I can, although I think I'll be taking my leave from here as well pretty soon. All the hypocrisy is a little much for my taste.

Elizabeth: hypocrisy
I don't think so. It's called standing up for what is right and recognizing what is wrong.
This situation is wrong. Do you care nothing for the child? Do you honestly think this will be a healthy environment to raise a child?

Patricia,

You can say it over and over to yourself if that makes you feel better.

And yes, I care for this child, I pray this child is given the grace to accept and love his/her parents despite what is deemed "wrong" with them. Would you rather we forcibly remove children because you don't agree with someone's partner? You want laws to determine who can be a parent and who can't? I bet you we'd definitely see the abortion numbers go up then, so good job for you!

And yes, if the parents are able to love and nurture the child to the best of their ability, then I think it's a healthy environment. I can envision far worse circumstances than these that children are FORCED to live in.

Naturally, today of course, the child is not considered. In the narcissism of the day, the child who deserves a natural and normal family setting is instead intentionally given a psychologically speculative environment. Such a decision should warrant the removal of the child from such a parent on just those logical grounds: developmental and formative personality and indentity confusion. The world is indeed sick. It's become a carnival sideshow with the soul death of our children.

Elizabeth:

Who are you to judge how those people parent? They may have problems themselves, but that doesn't mean you can't be a good parent just because you have your own personal issues to deal with.

Um, I think we already have the evidence before us as to just how these "folks" actually "parent". If you haven't noticed, the elephant is in the living room and he's swinging by the chandelier!

KC, 7:03 p.m.

What in the hell are you talking about??

The world is indeed sick. It's become a carnival sideshow with the soul death of our children

you NAILED that one!
A very wise and observant statement, KC.

How terribly sad but true.

LOL and true on your 7:03 post as well!

Well Bethany, I think it's part of the whole liberal agenda to prove that anyone can marry anyone/anything and that all that really matters is that the two people are self-fulfiled.
If these two people are happy why not? If Beatie decides next year she wants to marry her begonia, well that will probably be just fine too. If Beatie, Nancy and Harry the chimpanzee decide to marry that's gonna be terrific for this kid too. She learn to love animals because she'll have one for a parent!
Get it?!!!

Crazy, I tell you, crazy. Sad, but true.

Thanks ali! I do what I can, although I think I'll be taking my leave from here as well pretty soon. All the hypocrisy is a little much for my taste.

Could you help me understand what you are seeing as hypocritical? Hypocrisy, the way I have always understood it, is when you tell someone not to do something, even though you're doing it yourself.

Where has anyone done that in this topic? If I've missed it, please show me.

As far as I can tell, we are all just expressing our opinions about what we feel is right and wrong about this situation. just like we always do in debate.

You are correct, Bethany. Not on this particular thread, but on the very first one is really what I was talking about with all the insult-hurling that Bystander got banned for and yet HisMan got to continue. I guess that's what I mean..sorry it carried over into my comment on this thread!

That's okay, Elizabeth..it happens! :)

If, as you believe, homosexuality is a mental disorder, than by your own explanation, they can still be good parents. Just as much as parents with depression, bipolar, anxiety, etc.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at July 5, 2008 4:24 PM

No, Elizabeth, there is a big difference between an anxiety disorder that can be managed with medication and a disorder in which a person is so unhappy with their sexual identity,which is an integral part of their person, that they have to surgically remove parts of their body. I hope no one ever treats this little girl cruelly or the women that are raising her but chances are she will grow up being confused about her own sexuality. Studies are being done that are indicating this but not much is being said in the mainstream because it is not in the best interest of the liberal agenda.

Studies are being done that are indicating this

Links please.

Elizabeth, I'm not very computer-literate yet but if you "google" Richard Fitzgibbons MD -- it will lead you to an article, "When Boys Won't Be Boys: Childhood Gender Identity Disorder". Also try Susan Brinkmann who has written, "Gay Marriage: Who's Minding the Children". I will have to do more extensive searching because most of what I have learned was gotten from listening to the radio or TV so it will take some time to track down specifics.

"Aww thanks Elizabeth :)

Why did they leave?"

PIP,

It was a disussion about the transmission of HIV/AIDS.

Amanda and Rae left (and Elizabeth got angry) because we said homosexual (anal) sex was wrong and contributed significatly in the transmission of HIV. I mean, we said nothing about homosexuals themselves. So, they started calling us homophobes and gay bashers.

what can I say, many of us here have principles we don't want to abandon. We love the sinner but hate the sin.

"Naturally, today of course, the child is not considered. In the narcissism of the day, the child who deserves a natural and normal family setting is instead intentionally given a psychologically speculative environment. Such a decision should warrant the removal of the child from such a parent on just those logical grounds: developmental and formative personality and indentity confusion. The world is indeed sick. It's become a carnival sideshow with the soul death of our children."

KC, excellent post.

Jasper, you wrote: "Amanda and Rae left (and Elizabeth got angry) because we said homosexual (anal) sex was wrong and contributed significatly in the transmission of HIV."

I think Rae's leaving had more to do with "Truthseeker"'s insistance on the idea of de-novo creation of HIV by the male body's reaction to another man's sperm. I think she became convinced that there is no point in trying to educate you folks.

It's almost always sad when someone gives up on something like that.

I once taught Statistics and Probability at a high school. As it turned out, the school required seniors to take either Calculus or S&P and I got the kids who were afraid of Calculus and hated Math. I don't know why they thought S&P would be easier or less math-y than Calculus but they did, and every one of them chose my course for that reason. I clearly remember the moment when I realized, and accepted, the fact that none of them had the background or basic technical smarts or inclination to understand what I was supposed to teach them. It was very sad. To accept that a whole community is impenetrable by essential knowledge.

Jasper,

Were you and I even present in the SAME conversation?

I didn't get angry about anything..if truthseeker wanted to throw around ideas that he had no way of backing up, FINE, like I care.

The point that I repeated over and over that you all seemed to have trouble comprehending WAS: that you can't spontaneously get HIV if the person you are having sex with DOES NOT have HIV. That's IT. I didn't care that you said that being a homosexual male increases one's chances of getting HIV. I DON'T dispute that because it's TRUE, a PROVEN FACT, unlike ANY of truthseeker's assertions that one can just magically get HIV if their partner doesn't ALREADY have it.

And I NEVER called anybody a homophobe, but I do maintain the belief that spreading misconceptions about gay people CONTRIBUTES to gay-bashing.

Seriously, you could have emailed this to her, cause I'm SURE this will stir more things up, but I don't want to be misunderstood because of people's inability to read what I'm actually writing.

errrr, no I didn't..but I understand the frustration that Rae and Amanda felt with TS who refused to acknowledge their points that specifically proved him wrong.

People, if you come across something you think is non-sense, ignore it, don't engage in it.

You mean like your 11:32 p.m. post Jasper?

Okay.

well, if it wasn't you, it was Amanda and Rae..and you were agreeing with them.

Okay, that's it.

STOP LYING JASPER.

Elizabeth is right as to why Amanda and I left. SoMG is also correct on why *I* left. I can't fully speak for Amanda, as I'm not Amanda- but I know my reasons and the ones you're putting out there are FALSE.

Knock it off.

*scuttles away back into obscurity*

Yea!! my plan worked... I knew I'd get you come back Rae! LOL...

All,

Let's drop what happened, I think we can all agree that HIV is not transmitted when the disease isn't present. Elizabeth, I'm sorry if quoted you incorrectly about the "gay bashing' comments...

Ok, Jasper, it's cool.

Don't let it happen again though. :)

Yes, and that's the tragedy. It need not be had the parents not been so selfish in the first place to set up such a situation. The child deserves better than these two parents.
Posted by: Patricia at July 5, 2008 3:00 PM

Based on this principle Patricia, your advice to the Christian parent posting above would be to give up Christianity because their kids might be mocked for it, you know, those Christian parents are just being selfish thinking about their eternal salvation to set up such a situation. The child deserves........

Oh yeah, was that the thread where TS randomly called me out and told me I was having anal sex? I think I did read that one.

And yeah, that was completely ridiculous. The first time I ever heard someone in the modern age dispute germ theory.

"She" is not now and never has been a "he". She had her tits removed and took male hormones, that doesn't make a woman a man. This publicity and attention were probably her goal from the beginning. No story here except maybe that a baby was born to a VERY unstable mother.

Oh yeah, was that the thread where TS randomly called me out and told me I was having anal sex? I think I did read that one.

And yeah, that was completely ridiculous. The first time I ever heard someone in the modern age dispute germ theory.

Posted by: prettyinpink at July 6, 2008 3:40 AM

Yeah pip, ouutta the blue but not outta the air. I remembered that you had hinted enjoying it on a orevious thread...may have just been joking though. It was a thread from a few months ago when IO first started posting on Jill's blog. You might remeber the one where you posted those "hot" pictures of yourself. And I posted to you cause I cared about you and I remebered your previous post. I am glad to hear you DON'T though. :)

All,

Let's drop what happened, I think we can all agree that HIV is not transmitted when the disease isn't present. Elizabeth, I'm sorry if quoted you incorrectly about the "gay bashing' comments...
Posted by: Jasper at July 6, 2008 12:17 AM

I don't agree Jasper. But if you ALL want to agree that's fine. I still strongly discourage any malke from ingesting or injecting another males sperm into his body. It IMO would likely lead to health problems. And if you don't want a mouthfull then leave it at that.

errrr, no I didn't..but I understand the frustration that Rae and Amanda felt with TS who refused to acknowledge their points that specifically proved him wrong.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at July 5, 2008 11:23

LOL G'sMom,
Rae had`some excellent points, but NONE of them proved me wrong. In fact didn't she herself say that herpes is a disease that has it's genisis in sexual intercourse? Go back and read the posts again G'sMom. Nobody refuted the rationality iof my posts. As far as I am concerned your acceptance of homosexual intercourse is leading people to sickness and death. Chew on that while you are whining in your "compassion". HOMOS NOS EROS

OHH was that the thread where I said, 'Sodomy is GREAT' and my comment got deleted? I was referring to the broad definition of sodomy (anything that is not sexual intercourse) and I was being facetious (sp? it's late). I don't have sexual intercourse or anal sex, so I did think it was very random of you to post that. Next time, let's just not jump to conclusions, just feel free to ask me, okay?

...hot pics? Don't remember that one, either.

"I don't agree Jasper. But if you ALL want to agree that's fine. I still strongly discourage any malke from ingesting or injecting another males sperm into his body. It IMO would likely lead to health problems. And if you don't want a mouthfull then leave it at that."

TS, I agree to other health problems (there are many), but not HIV if one does already have it.

Patricia,

You can say it over and over to yourself if that makes you feel better.

And yes, I care for this child, I pray this child is given the grace to accept and love his/her parents despite what is deemed "wrong" with them. Would you rather we forcibly remove children because you don't agree with someone's partner? You want laws to determine who can be a parent and who can't? I bet you we'd definitely see the abortion numbers go up then, so good job for you!

And yes, if the parents are able to love and nurture the child to the best of their ability, then I think it's a healthy environment. I can envision far worse circumstances than these that children are FORCED to live in.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at July 5, 2008 6:51 PM

Well I'm glad you can envision far worse Elizabeth because this is probably one of the worst and it's going to get alot worse.
We not only now have gay couples "having" children, we have transgender couples and even couples who are ridiculously elderly as in 70+ "having" babies simply because they WANT one. No consideration is being given to the child and it's needs.
This is full-blown narcissism at it's best.
Where will you draw the line Elizabeth and why? Will you allow pedophiliacs to have babies? If not, why not?

What about poly people, Elizabeth? If they can raise children in a loving "marriage" with 3 men and 2 women, why not?

What about a man and woman who practice bestiality?

Please don't tell me these are people with illnesses or disorders. Because 30 years ago, homosexuality was considered a disorder too. And it's now normal?

We need to stop this silliness for the sake of our children. Our children have become pawns in a huge social engineering project.

This child should be removed from the parents. If this was a heterosexual couple and the parents were mentally ill you can bet the social services would be involved. However because it's a same-sex/attempting transgendered "couple" we don't dare touch them. Of course Beatie can't possibly be mentally ill. She's just finding herself and being self fulfilled.

Elizabeth as long as we continue to support "anything" on the basis of self fulfilment and self-actualization we will have to support everything.

Elizabeth wrote:"And I NEVER called anybody a homophobe, but I do ma