"Democrat National Convention" again. Perhaps Jill isn't reading the comments and hasn't gotten the memo. It is the Democratic National Convention.

Ray,
Who's blog is this?? Oh, that's right it's called Jill Stanek, Pro-Life Pulse.

That t-shirt is cute.
To answer your question Jill, women like men who understand their rights. (some women do anyway)

That's "Pro-Liffee Pulse"

I cannot fathom why girls would knowingly hook up with boys who they know ahead of time would encourage them to abort

Actually, a pro-choice boy would let the girl decide. That's what pro-choice means, silly.

Pro-life boys, at least, would accept responsibility.

And if he's really pro-life, he might even beat her up!

Reality in real life people kill their wife/girlriend/hookup because they WONT have an abortion.

i want that t-shirt! how dare she try to usurp my walking advertisement for a good time at the DNC status?!

In real life, people also shoot abortion providers and bomb abortion clinics.

Um....one little problem with the logic here:

Just b/c a guy is pro-choice does not mean he is going to actually accept responsibility for what happened or even lift a finger to help the mother/child.

That shirt really does say it all - they're boys and not men.

I don't look at it as people "worshipping" the Earth (though I'm sure there is a fringe minority of people who do revere nature as a religion), merely having a good healthy respect for it as the only planet in which we can live (as of now).

They'll be no human lives to save if we destroy the atmosphere and resources needed to sustain them. Just my $0.02.

Just b/c a guy is pro-choice does not mean he is going to actually accept responsibility for what happened or even lift a finger to help the mother/child.

Sadly, dating a pro-life guy won't ensure that, either.

Whoops -

So Jill's friends, "Focus on the Family", had made a public prayer to God to punish Denver to flooded by storms and torrential rains while hosting the DNC.

In a wonderful twist of irony, the only rain in Denver over the course of the convention has fallen....

...in the Fox News skybox!

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=98286&catid=188

God has spoken! He rules!

I think you can be unbalanced in environmentalism. We need to be good stewards of the gifts God gives us - including our earth and the life contained therein.

But, sometimes people care more about Gaia and not enough about our neighbors.

For example, it is unconscionable for a country to set aside food crops to make fuel, when there are starving people.

Just my .02

Reality, far more women have been murdered by the pro-abortion fathers of their children than abortionists have even been threatened.

This certainly doesn't excuse clinic violence, but the reality is that the leading cause of death for a pregnant woman is murder.

Homicide was found to be the leading cause of death for pregnant women in Maryland, according to a March 2001 study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Using death records and coroner reports, state health department researchers found 247 pregnancy-associated deaths between 1993 and 1998. Among those deaths, 50 were murders. By comparison, homicide was the fifth-leading cause of death among Maryland women. And, nationwide, the maternal mortality rate was just 9.9 percent in 1999, the most recent year for which statistics are available.

and

The Maryland study reinforced at least two earlier studies that found homicide to be the top killer of pregnant women. In Cook County, Ill., 26 percent of the 95 deaths of pregnant women recorded between 1986 and 1989 were slain. In New York, 25 percent of the 293 deaths among pregnant women between 1987 and 1991 were homicides.

From http://www.now.org/issues/violence/043003pregnant.html

Good points, Milehimama. Pope Benedict XVI has made the same points.

"In a wonderful twist of irony, the only rain in Denver over the course of the convention has fallen.......in the Fox News skybox!"

Why, I LOVE rain! Don't you know what the world we like without rain, Mike? Gee Willikers!

Wasn't there tornadoes that touched down in the Denver Metro area?

Good post, Lauren. Regarding violence committed by pro-aborts and "pro-lifers," this site is a useful resource (though the pro-aborts will likely disagree):

http://abortionviolence.com/

Cranky, I'd love to see a new button "Ask me how many condoms I own".

Chris @ 2:26,
That shirt really does say it all - they're boys and not men.

Amen, amen, amen.

Hey, I just talked to a bum who'd been out of work for 10 years, and he said he knew when life started, and assured me that the question was NOT above his "pay grade".

I wonder how much you have to earn to know that?

That t-shirt is cute.
To answer your question Jill, women like men who understand their rights. (some women do anyway)

Posted by: Hal at August 26, 2008 1:48 PM

Suprised by Hal? NOT!

I"m with Chris on this one - a boy is prochoice but a real man has self-control, respects women enough not to use them for his own self-gratification and honours his promises.
Happily, "pro-choice" chicks like this one will take all the losers and leave the real men for the rest of us!

Hey SoMG..lay off the weight issue...that's below the belt...

Moderators?

Well, Patricia, I sure am glad I found my "loser" before some other "chick" did.

PS, he has self control, he respects me, and he honours his promises. Our reproductive views are our own, and we discussed them before getting serious. He does not want a say in other women's reproductive decisions, though.

somg- always helpful and always tactful
and what do YOU look like somg? so we can judge if you are healthy or not?

That's free medical advice. Some people get paid more than $100.00 per hour to give that advice.

Well, Patricia, I sure am glad I found my "loser" before some other "chick" did.

PS, he has self control, he respects me, and he honours his promises. Our reproductive views are our own, and we discussed them before getting serious. He does not want a say in other women's reproductive decisions, though.

Posted by: Alexandra at August 26, 2008 3:47 PM

I don't know what YOUR lifestyle is Alexandra and quite frankly I don't care. But any man that is "prochoice" (read proabort/procontraception) is no man. He's a pool boy IMO.

That was just wrong SoMG!

Patricia, I also need to lose some weight but not as much as Jill.

Biblical alternative to the eco-crazies:
http://www.we-get-it.org/

Yes, Scripture tells us to care for God's creation. Yes, that includes the environment. Therefore, Christians have an obligation to care for the environment.

Up to a point.

The "point" is remembering that God gave us His creation to use, not to worship. The world belongs to us, not the other way around. People are more important than trees, birds, and anything else except other people.

Therefore, we should never let "environmentalism" deter us from developing our industry, generating wealth, and using that wealth to care for people. It is not Christian to require (or even to allow) people in developing countries to remain impoverished because we want to protect the wetlands, save an endangered species, or whatever. People are more important than nature. Whenever possible, we should develop eco-friendly technologies, and we should strive to be responsible ... but we must always put people first.

Ironically, poor people and people in developing countries (often the same people) will suffer a lot more from extreme environmentalist policies than the affluent folks (hello, Al Gore!) who are pushing those policies....

Oh yeah! Real men, like YOUR husband!!

Oh wait. Heh.

Posted by: just saying at August 26, 2008 3:53 PM

yes unfortunately. He has all the values of a prochoice "man"

Alexandra added:
He does not want a say in other women's reproductive decisions, though.

Cool. I don't want a say in other women's reproductive decisions. Get pregnant or not. Have your uterus removed & bronzed, if that seems like a good idea to you....

However, if you have already reproduced, then I must insist that you refrain from killing the unborn child within your womb. That's not a "reproductive decision"; it's killing an innocent child.

For whatever it's worth, I would object just as strongly to a woman who wanted to kill her already-born child. I'm consistently opposed to killing innocent children. :)

of course, just think of all the good you are doing somg
think of all those babies you are killling who will never have the chance to ever get overweight....
must tickle the cockles of your heart...

That's free medical advice. Some people get paid more than $100.00 per hour to give that advice.

Posted by: SoMG at August 26, 2008 3:51 PM

I wouldn't pay you a piece of coal for any medical advice you gave - mostly because I'd believe you were trying to kill me....
you don't respect or care about women at all

I like how you fail to point out that the girl in the pro-choice shirt is most certainly underweight.

I'm pretty sure she's just on the low end of healthy. She looks like she's got a BMI of maybe 18-19 or so, and while BMI is not the best indicator of health because it fails to take into account muscle mass, etc, she has indications that her body is at a healthy weight -- breasts, for example.

Obviously, commenting on someone's picture without having them ask your opinion, even when you disguise it as a concern for their health, is unnecessary.

If the mods want to delete it, that's fine with me. You're the one who it was directed at, and you've seen it.

Also, the padding of her bra doesn't matter. Her BMI is obviously under 20.

The point is, you're not trying to give helpful "advice" and you know it. You're being a jerk.

Patricia, the correct expression is "warm [not tickle] the cockles of your heart". Woody Allen replies: "Great! Nothing like hot cockles!" There has also been some talk about warming the heartles of something but we probably don't need to go into that here.

Patricia, the correct expression is "warm [not tickle] the cockles of your heart". Woody Allen replies: "Great! Nothing like hot cockles!" There has also been some talk about warming the heartles of something but we probably don't need to go into that here.

Posted by: SoMG at August 26, 2008 4:07 PM

I think you get the drift of my post somg.....

SoMG:

Why don't you have the courage to post a picture of yourself and stand up for your views and values like Jill does?

OK everyone, SoMG's back. Makes a stupid comment and in doing so becomes the center of attention.

I fell for it again.

Her arms are thin and her face is narrow which makes her look thinner generally than she is.

Patricia, you wrote: "I wouldn't pay you a piece of coal for any medical advice you gave - mostly because I'd believe you were trying to kill me...."

Are you saying that telling Jill to lose weight is not good advice???

You wrote: "you don't respect or care about women at all"

Some more than others.

lauren: I have to disagree with you. The girl in the pic looks fine to me. It's her mind & heart that are anemic.....
I'm on the low end of the BMI scale and believe me I would love to weigh as much as her....

Alexandra,

I agree that talking about someone's weight is unnecessary, I was just making a point that if SoMG is trying to pretend he's concerned about health, he should look at the pro=choice girl as well.

Monica Lewinski loved pro-choice boys too. And they're trying to put another one in office.

Nothing to fear, Jill is here.

You wrote: "you don't respect or care about women at all"

Some more than others.

Posted by: SoMG at August 26, 2008 4:12 PM

yes, unborn baby girls you don't care about
If you were a good doctor, you would care about ALL women and not discriminate
Do you mind if people discriminate against yourself?

I'm consistently opposed to killing innocent children. :)

It's good to see you around again, by the way, Naaman.

Of course, you are anti-abortion and I am pro. So I'm not looking to make you agree with me. But my point is, the views a man holds about whether someone's right to life trump another's right to bodily autonomy do not indicate his ability to respect a women, or all women. It's simplistic to say that pro-choice men are losers who lie and have no self control, and that assertion was what I was responding to.

I don't much mind being called a loser, though. People like Patricia have been telling me for nigh on three years now that one day my boyfriend will leave me broken and alone, because that's what pro-choice men do, they use women and throw them away. All it really does, honestly, is make me more convinced than ever that people like that are wrong, because I see how wrong they are every single day of my life.

The girl in the (very cute) pro-choice shirt is not unhealthily underweight, IMO. Most certainly on the thin side, but some people are just like that.

SoMG was certainly being an ass, though. If you're not going to be nice or helpful, don't make comments at all. Geez.

And I found it funny that the pro-life tees and buttons say "boys" as well, not men. So you can't talk about one side or the other being "boys" vs "men"! ;P

Also, Jill said "liberals have taken a good thing too far, worshipping the earth as god and placing a higher priority on plant and animal life than human life."

Umm...if we don't put a priority on plant and animal life, we won't even HAVE human life. Or at the very most, we'll have human life but not a good quality of life.

Lauren --

Oh, I know, I included that last bit so that you'd know that even though I don't think the pro-choice woman is anywhere near underweight, I wasn't defending SOMG's comment.

Patricia, I think she looks "normal" too, it's just that our perception of "normal" is acutally medically "underweight" which carries its own health risks.

I am usually somewhere between 18 and 19 BMI, and my High-risk OB told me, in no uncertain terms, that she wanted me to gain as much weight as possible with my last pregnancy because she didn't feel that I gained enough in my first pregnancy. I gained 35 lbs the first time around, but I was still urged to gain more because I started out "underweight."

Here's the abstract on an interesting study on the matter:

Based on total follow-up, underweight was associated with significantly increased mortality from noncancer, non-CVD causes (23 455 excess deaths; 95% confidence interval [CI], 11 848 to 35 061) but not associated with cancer or CVD mortality. Overweight was associated with significantly decreased mortality from noncancer, non-CVD causes (–69 299 excess deaths; 95% CI, –100 702 to –37 897) but not associated with cancer or CVD mortality. Obesity was associated with significantly increased CVD mortality (112 159 excess deaths; 95% CI, 87 842 to 136 476) but not associated with cancer mortality or with noncancer, non-CVD mortality. In further analyses, overweight and obesity combined were associated with increased mortality from diabetes and kidney disease (61 248 excess deaths; 95% CI, 49 685 to 72 811) and decreased mortality from other noncancer, non-CVD causes (–105 572 excess deaths; 95% CI, –161 816 to –49 328). Obesity was associated with increased mortality from cancers considered obesity-related (13 839 excess deaths; 95% CI, 1920 to 25 758) but not associated with mortality from other cancers. Comparisons across surveys suggested a decrease in the association of obesity with CVD mortality over time.

For example, it is unconscionable for a country to set aside food crops to make fuel, when there are starving people.

Just my .02
Posted by: Milehimama at August 26, 2008 2:45 PM

Well, there's just so much high fructose corn syrup starving children can eat - you know?

SoMG

I was thinking the same thing. Those shirts probably don't come in XXXXXL-so I put this down to a little green monster.

Girls:

SoMG is laffing it's arse off.

Aren't you on to it yet?

It always does this to dilute the topic.

Let's get back to the post.

Jill,

no worries. as my blog name implies, I definitely have hippie aspects. :) Recycling, baby!

Certainly not putting earth above people, or trees above unborn babies, but being a good steward is clearly written in God's word. He set Adam up in the garden to care for it, not to let it go to pot. Or grow pot, as the case may be. haha.

And while I don't put much stock in global warming, I'm always shocked by the ridicule that environmentally conscious folks receive by those in the conservative community. If I can go a little out of my way to recycle, or take a moment to care about where my food comes from, or where my garbage is going, we're all a little better off, and I've made the earth a little better for my children. The Earth is a beautiful creation of God, and I feel that it's a snub to our Lord if we stomp on it and trash it without taking the time to think through our actions. Isn't that a fundamentally conservative ideal?

Just my two cents. :)

Rock on at the DNC-- I look forward to your continued reports.

Nothing to fear, Jill is here.
Posted by: HisMan at August 26, 2008 4:20 PM
But as I remember, she couldn't get elected dogcatcher - lucky dogs.

Hi Lauren
I weighed 91 lbs when I got pregnant with my first baby - I gained 53 lbs! It was LOVELY!
I now weigh about 105 lbs but wish dearly I could gain another 15 lbs. I'm 5 ft 2 inches!

Alexandra I lived with a liberal pro-contraception man for 11 years - he was my husband. I didn't know he held these views but it became apparent that he favoured many liberal ideas as time passed and that he lied to me. I would NEVER marry another man who didn't have the same values as me. Every man who believes in contraception has NEVER said to me - well lets have a friendship and then lets move on to see if we having anything that might develop into marriage. EVERY pro-contraception man I've ever dated has placed SEX first and foremost in the relationship and very quickly too I might add. IMO, they are losers! They see women not as persons but as sex objects.
If you think your man loves you and cares about you, ask him to marry you. I guarantee you he will have a zillion excuses. Or maybe it will be you with the excuses.

Ok refresh my memory...why was SoMG allowed back again?

Girls:

SoMG is laffing it's arse off.

Aren't you on to it yet?

It always does this to dilute the topic.

Let's get back to the post.

Posted by: HisMan at August 26, 2008 4:34 PM

righto

Patricia, there is a character in Don Giovanni you will like very much. Her name is Donna Elvira.

Yes Patricia, perhaps if you keep repeating to yourself over and over again that you're a single mom because your husband was a liberal, you'll eventually convince yourself of it, but you're certainly not convincing anyone else.

what WAS the topic anyway? Cool t-shirts and rational sexuality?

I think SoMG cares a lot about women. Enough to want to protect and help them exercise their rights. I'd be happy to have a doctor like SoMG treating me or performing my abortion- because I'd know that it was one who was passionate about what he was doing.

Reality, far more women have been murdered by the pro-abortion fathers of their children than abortionists have even been threatened.

This certainly doesn't excuse clinic violence, but the reality is that the leading cause of death for a pregnant woman is murder.

Homicide was found to be the leading cause of death for pregnant women in Maryland, according to a March 2001 study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Using death records and coroner reports, state health department researchers found 247 pregnancy-associated deaths between 1993 and 1998. Among those deaths, 50 were murders. By comparison, homicide was the fifth-leading cause of death among Maryland women. And, nationwide, the maternal mortality rate was just 9.9 percent in 1999, the most recent year for which statistics are available.

and

The Maryland study reinforced at least two earlier studies that found homicide to be the top killer of pregnant women. In Cook County, Ill., 26 percent of the 95 deaths of pregnant women recorded between 1986 and 1989 were slain. In New York, 25 percent of the 293 deaths among pregnant women between 1987 and 1991 were homicides.

From http://www.now.org/issues/violence/043003pregnant.html

Posted by: lauren at August 26, 2008 2:49 PM
............................................................

This has nothing to do with abortion Lauren. The stats show that abusive men often take advantage of a pregnant woman's vulnerability to abuse and often kill them. These sociopaths are not pro-choice. They are about controlling and punishing women. Who does that sound like?

I think that girl's t-shirt is disgusting.

Pro-choice boys?

What a cop-out. Have sex, get pregnant, then kill your baby that you helped pro-create with a boy.

That's real mature.

And then advertise it on your stupid t-shirt.

What an idiot.

Sally:

"Men who kill pregnant women are most likely romantically involved with their victims and see the pregnancy and unborn child as obstacles and burdens in their lives. They may not want a child, may want to pursue an extramarital affair or may want to keep an affair secret.

"The usual reason when it involves a man is the [unborn] baby. The baby is causing a complication in his life," said Pat Brown, profiler and chief executive officer of The Pat Brown Criminal Profiling Agency. "

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/Story?id=522184&page=1

Sounds like these men kill women *precisely* because they refuse to abort.

So this is "live-blogging" the DNC. No money wasted here.

So far, we've had coverage of some graffiti, a random t-shirt, and some marketing materials. What's next? A play-by-play of the line for the port-a-potty?

I'm shocked that the AP hasn't offered Jill a bazillion dollar contract for her reporting services.

Sally:

"Men who kill pregnant women are most likely romantically involved with their victims and see the pregnancy and unborn child as obstacles and burdens in their lives. They may not want a child, may want to pursue an extramarital affair or may want to keep an affair secret.

"The usual reason when it involves a man is the [unborn] baby. The baby is causing a complication in his life," said Pat Brown, profiler and chief executive officer of The Pat Brown Criminal Profiling Agency. "

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/Story?id=522184&page=1

Sounds like these men kill women *precisely* because they refuse to abort.

Posted by: lauren at August 26, 2008 5:25 PM
........................................

Are you saying that you understand that these men are not Pro-choice? But rather about controlling women and punishing them?

I'm sorry, Jill, but Woo has a pretty valid point.

And a very funny one.

Now Ted Kennedy is getting squirmy two spots away from the john! Will he make it? Read jillstanek.com tomorrow for the answer!

Hahahahaha...

I think SoMG cares a lot about women. Enough to want to protect and help them exercise their rights. I'd be happy to have a doctor like SoMG treating me or performing my abortion- because I'd know that it was one who was passionate about what he was doing.

Posted by: Erin at August 26, 2008 5:11 PM

No, actually SOMG stated heshe aborts babies to pi*@ off RTLers. He/she is using you and your unborn child for his/her own agenda.

It bothers me that you use the word "passionate"
as an admirable quality in someone who kills babies for a living.

BTW, where is SOMG when a woman dies from an abortion, or when Angele placed a lawsuit against dr. "nowhere to be found" when she delivered a live baby, or when a clinic is found to be digustingly filthy. If he/she was so caring about women he/she would start a group to monitor these quacks.

There are health inspectors, and there are lawyers. SoMG is a doctor. *shrugs* I believe that you can be passionate about anything, and about things that are far more destructive than reproductive rights.

Sally,

They're men who use legalized abortion as a justification that they *deserve* to have their offspring killed. However, I will concede that these men are not "pro-choice", but rather "pro-abortion," and yes, they are very much out to control women.

"So this is "live-blogging" the DNC"

I know. How about a review of Mrs. Obama's great speech?

Sally men also kill women for aborting. And threaten to do so.

"You killed my baby so now I'm gonna kill you!"

Hal, I watched the speach with an open mind. I didn't think it was great.

I don't think it will *hurt* the campaign, but I don't think it will help either. It was quite forced, and honestly felt a bit contrived. Honestly, it felt like she was a highschool freshman reciting a monologue of someone else's life.

I also found it odd that the title was "I love America," yet there was very little about America. They should have renamed it "my story" or...something. I also thought the "south side girl" title was bit heavy handed. The film itself was fine, but "south side girl," really?

"That shirt really does say it all - they're boys and not men."

Right-On Chris

Yes Patricia, perhaps if you keep repeating to yourself over and over again that you're a single mom because your husband was a liberal, you'll eventually convince yourself of it, but you're certainly not convincing anyone else.

Posted by: just saying at August 26, 2008 5:06 PM

you have no idea what my life is like now JS! I'm very happy and you've no idea whether I have a wonderful man or not! So bug out. Thanks. BTW, I'm not here to convince anyone of anything re my first "marriage". I'm here to say that if you live a liberal sexuality promiscuous lifestyle as many do, you have my deepest sympathies. And your saying it's wonderful over and over won't convince me it's so.

I think SoMG cares a lot about women. Enough to want to protect and help them exercise their rights. I'd be happy to have a doctor like SoMG treating me or performing my abortion- because I'd know that it was one who was passionate about what he was doing.

Posted by: Erin at August 26, 2008 5:11 PM

this is a very sick view, IMO
You are saying you'd be happy to have a doctor KILL your unborn child - how depraved can you get Erin? I'm sure somg is QUITE passionate when he snuffs out the life of a little child - must be very empowering....

I believe that you can be passionate about anything, and about things that are far more destructive than reproductive rights.

Posted by: Erin at August 26, 2008 5:36 PM

I fail to see how anything can be more destructive to human beings than reproductive "rights" which include the killing, at will, without cause, of innocent children?

"I know. How about a review of Mrs. Obama's great speech?"

Hal,

It looks like the campaign has Michelle Obama putting up a front, she not being her true self with all that "I love America" stuff.

FYI the woman in the picture is the main blogger for NARAL. Emily or Elizabeth or something like that.

I think that girl's t-shirt is disgusting.

Pro-choice boys?

What a cop-out. Have sex, get pregnant, then kill your baby that you helped pro-create with a boy.

That's real mature.

And then advertise it on your stupid t-shirt.

What an idiot.

Posted by: Opinionated at August 26, 2008 5:20 PM

lol, i agree!
However, when have you seen these people every think through something to it's logical conclusions, Opinionated?

CHChick:

God also said to have dominion over the creation and I agree this includes being a good steward of it. I am a devout Christian. I drive fuel efficient cars, I live in an enegy efficient house, I recycle, I don't litter and am a supporter of many nature type organizations as long as they are not wacko about it.

However, my priorities are in line with God's Word. I don't worship nature, I don't put animals and nature over humans (and I really love both) and I certainly don't support a political party that advocates murder over living through the challenge.

It's one thing to take care of the environment and another thing to create hysteria based on an environmental myth for the purpose of raising money for the Party of Death, to attain power, to support policies that kill unborn children, to redefine marriage and morality, to attain power, ad infinitum, etc.

The Democratic Party has truly been led astray by the seductive nature of power and money, abandoning their historical foudations laid by the likes of Harry S. Truman, a devout Christian who God used to rebirth the nation of Israel. Mr. Truman would not be a Democrat in today's Democratic Party.

Lauren:

My thirty year old son just married. He saved himself for his wife. He wrote me a note after the wedding and it said this, "Dad, thank you for raising me in the faith. You and mom have blessed us more than we could have ever hoped.....".

Any father that would bring up his son to not respect a woman by using her before marriage is not a father, but just a sperm donor.

And cetainly not a father who would bring up a son that would advocate abortion. How manly is it to kill an unborn, innocent, defenseless child in the womb? It is the most cowardly thing a male could do.

FYI the woman in the picture is the main blogger for NARAL. Emily or Elizabeth or something like that.

Posted by: Steven Ertelt at August 26, 2008 6:09 PM

well, isn't that special!
why am I NOT surprised? I'm sure she lives what she advertises...

Jasper,

The Democrats cannot show who they really are.

Look, Pelosi tried to show it on Sunday, pretending that she studied historical church teaching on abortion, speaking a grave heresy, and in the process making herself look like an idiot.

I only wish the Catholic priests would really say what was on their minds which is this woman and the people she misleads are in grave danger of eternal hellfire.

"FYI the woman in the picture is the main blogger for NARAL. Emily or Elizabeth or something like that."

That makes sense, normal people wouldn't walk around in a t-shirt like that.

Jasper, I don't know what to say about your views. You really seem pre-disposed to believe the worst of people. It's not sufficient to simply disagree on policy, you must assume Mrs. Obama "hates" America? Do you fear Obama's Presidency so much that you must attack him and his wife (kids too?) to try to poison public opinion?

People like you are the reason she had to give that amazing speech, explaining her background and why that translates into love of country. But, your heart is closed, and your mind as well perhaps.

Sally,

They're men who use legalized abortion as a justification that they *deserve* to have their offspring killed. However, I will concede that these men are not "pro-choice", but rather "pro-abortion," and yes, they are very much out to control women.

Posted by: lauren at August 26, 2008 5:37 PM
.................................................

These men most obviously do not use legal abortion as any kind of justification or excuse for their behavior. Legal abortion undermines their absolute authority. These men are much more likely to justify their behavior with the excuse of male dominion than anything else.

Sally men also kill women for aborting. And threaten to do so.

Posted by: SoMG at August 26, 2008 5:58 PM
.......................................................

Of course. Anything that usurps their authority over their property infuriates these sociopaths.

People like you are the reason she had to give that amazing speech, explaining her background and why that translates into love of country. But, your heart is closed, and your mind as well perhaps.

Posted by: Hal at August 26, 2008 6:17 PM

YOU are accusing Jasper of having a closed heart and mind? I think you of any people on this BB Hal, have NO right to accuse anyone else of this. I am completely disgusted by your statement.

Hal,

I didn't attack MO. I just think she wasn't being her normal self. I would normally be excited about the first African American President, but Obama is not someone a pro-lifer can get behind. Plus MO wrote a letter defending PBA.

Good Point HisMan. On your 2nd point, there have been 3 bishops who already spoke out Pelosi. The QoTD for tomorrow will have one of them.

lol, i agree!
However, when have you seen these people every think through something to it's logical conclusions, Opinionated?

Posted by: Patricia at August 26, 2008 6:09 PM

Patricia, I haven't seen anything logical of note from pro-aborts. They are truly blinded by the evil one.

well, isn't that special!
why am I NOT surprised? I'm sure she lives what she advertises...
Posted by: Patricia at August 26, 2008 6:12 PM

Patricia, you sound like "church lady", LOL!

Hisman at August 26, 2008 6:09 PM

So well said.

also Hisman at 6:14 PM

Right again about Pelosi, an apostate.
As you may know, at least a few Catholic bishops have warned pro-choice pols, e.g., Archbishop Raymond Burke, (formerly of St. Louis), and Archbishop Naumann of KC has told Gov. Sebelius that she must not present herself to receive Holy Communion until she has confessed her sins in the Sacrament of Confession and publicly renounced her pro-death positions.

Sally, I don't think I explained it well. Basically, a certain type of man will see a woman's refusal to abort as an afront on HIS "right to not have a baby".

Then, an even more deranged subgroup will take this further and kill the woman because SHE'S TRYING TO RUIN MY LIFE!

Have you seen Match Point? It deals with this theme.

it was a line from the "church lady"!

Also, Pelosi has been severely chastised by Cardinal Edward Egan who bluntly put it this way:

"Anyone who dares to defend that they may be legitimately killed because another human being 'chooses' to do so or for any other equally ridiculous reason should not be providing leadership in a civilized democracy worthy of the name," concluded Cardinal Egan

God bless Cardinal Egan.
Ms Pelosi should stick her head in the toilet - that's the only place she's fit to make the comments she has. If she wants to support abortion she should formally join another religion - she's already practicing another in my mind.

Jill, hope you have a good time.

Of course we should see our partners as sexual, sexy. Would you really marry someone who you didn't want to have sex with?

Jasper:

I heard statements from both the Denver and Washington, DC bishops.

My point is they were being very kind, so kind s to not even make her think about how absolutely evil and subject to damantion her comments make her.

It's time to speak the truth fearlessly and without thought to the consequences. I am not saying they should offend her, I am saying they should speak the truth which is that "someone who professes, in a public way, absolute heresy and lies, is held to a much higher standard and stricter judgement".

Why should they do this? Because it is in the best eternal interests to repent of such evil and be found in the safe arms of the Savior.

And to everyone who called Jill fat, shut up. Honestly. Oh yeah you're all *really* pro-choice. You support a woman's right to choose what to do with her body unless she *gasp* gains weight and isn't super sexy to you anymore. Jill has every right to weigh whatever she wants. And any intelligent person would know extra weight doesn't mean unhealthy. It's a combination of factors. I was skinny when I was bulimic, was I healthier then?

Jill you're beautiful I love you keep smiling!

I have a friend who can't have children now because her eating disorder messed her up permanently. Think about that next time you start bashing someone for being above "average".

Sally, I don't think I explained it well. Basically, a certain type of man will see a woman's refusal to abort as an afront on HIS "right to not have a baby".

Then, an even more deranged subgroup will take this further and kill the woman because SHE'S TRYING TO RUIN MY LIFE!

Have you seen Match Point? It deals with this theme.

Posted by: lauren at August 26, 2008 6:39 PM
...............................................

Abortion being legal is not the cause for a man to think he has any right to dictate anything over a woman. You can thank religion for that.

I've spent a great deal of time and money in therapy to treat my PTSD from DV as well as quite a bit of time reading on the subject. Watching a movie won't really give you a decent understanding of the dynamics of DV Lauren.

It all comes down to control of property for these men. I see a great deal of this attitude supported by religious institutions. Two of the women in my former support group were wives of ministers. Interesting that religious groups aren't protesting outside the homes of these thugs isn't it?

YOU are accusing Jasper of having a closed heart and mind? I think you of any people on this BB Hal, have NO right to accuse anyone else of this. I am completely disgusted by your statement.
Posted by: Patricia at August 26, 2008 6:28 PM

Awe. Shucks.

Jasper, by saying she is pretending to love America, are accusing her of being dishonest and a person who doesn't love America. That's an attack in my book.

Good night all...

I must have missed the insult. I think Jill looks great in that photo! I like both the photos on this thread.

I think the Republicans should do a medley of Obama's and Pelosi's recent over-the-top and exceedingly ignorant statements regarding life and their obvious ignorance on life issues and as a result disqualify themselves from leadership roles of any type. They should be played over, and over, and over again until it sinks in, especaily to Catholics. This will drive them to madness and even more dumb statements.

We have ben given gifts from above from these two Democrat leaders and it would be a shame if we don't use their own words against them. I sense the abortion issue coming to a head in this election and the gates of hell in all it's insanity are storming the church as a result.

They will not prevail. We are the church of Jesus Christ, the Bride of Christ and He will defend us with His mighty Spirit who lives in every believer. Therefore, it's time to take the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God, and cut these lies to shreds exposing their underbelly and the satanic influence behind them.

"Jill you're beautiful I love you keep smiling! "

I agree Jess.

SoMG, I oughta punch you out.

It's ok Jasper, I'll be Jill's knight in shinning armor : )

It's very obvious that Pelosi is an addict.

Addicted to money, addicted to power.

The same indications are found in Al Gore, Biden, the Kennedy's, the Clintons, and now the Obama's. And they will do anything for a fix including misrepresenting Christ, supporting the blasphemy of abortion, and indeed calling good evil and evil good.

"What does it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and loses his soul".

Sally, I'm not using the movie as the basis for my statment, just using it as an example of what I'm saying.

I'm sorry that you were in an abusive relationship. Thankfully, though I dated some jerks, they were never abusive jerks, and I married a wonderful man who would never dream of hurting me or our children.

As for people not protesting, I think a large part comes from people just not knowing. It's something that happens in private, and alot of women don't want to admit to it happening because they feel like it's their fault.

I don't think it is the fault of religion that some men are abusive, though I think that a very small percentage of abusive men twist religion to justify their abuse just like they use legalized abortion to justify their abuse. Men who want to control women will justify it with anything they can grab onto.

And to everyone who called Jill fat, shut up. Honestly. Oh yeah you're all *really* pro-choice. You support a woman's right to choose what to do with her body unless she *gasp* gains weight and isn't super sexy to you anymore. Jill has every right to weigh whatever she wants. And any intelligent person would know extra weight doesn't mean unhealthy. It's a combination of factors. I was skinny when I was bulimic, was I healthier then?

Jill you're beautiful I love you keep smiling!

Posted by: Jess at August 26, 2008 7:04 PM
.................................................................

I doubt if I would have ever found Jill sexy if she was ever thin but of course you have a point. People always tell overweight people how pretty their faces are and how pretty on the inside they must be ...... to not care about their outward appearance.
Shallow judgments.

But when someone spends all of their time preaching control and abstinence ...................... well! Practice what you preach.

Very well said Jess. I'm proud of you.

Sally:

Keep posting. I'm sure your victim mentality and negative spirit are changing many minds.

Whew!!!!!!!!!!!

Love you and what you're doing, Jill. I come to your blog through Barbara Curtis' blog. I'll be checking with you as you survive Denver. Blessings to you and yours...

WEll done, Jess!

Erm...from what I've seen, HisMan, Sally doesn't have a victim mentality. Nor does she have a negative spirit. She has BEEN a victim, but now she is focused on making choices that never end up with her in that position again. That's a fantastically healthy position to be in.

Sally, I'm not using the movie as the basis for my statment, just using it as an example of what I'm saying.

I'm sorry that you were in an abusive relationship. Thankfully, though I dated some jerks, they were never abusive jerks, and I married a wonderful man who would never dream of hurting me or our children.

As for people not protesting, I think a large part comes from people just not knowing. It's something that happens in private, and alot of women don't want to admit to it happening because they feel like it's their fault.

I don't think it is the fault of religion that some men are abusive, though I think that a very small percentage of abusive men twist religion to justify their abuse just like they use legalized abortion to justify their abuse. Men who want to control women will justify it with anything they can grab onto.

Posted by: lauren at August 26, 2008 7:23 PM
...............................................................

If you have any empathy for any victim of abuse and a religious affiliation, I only ask that you work up your courage to ask your religious leader what they are doing to prevent and heal the damage done by domestic violence.
Remind them or just educate them that every minute of every day a woman is being beaten by a man that has professed to love her. And countless children are witnessing this. If mamma is a worthless nonhuman what is the child? Worthless subhuman? And you want to blame this attitude on legal abortion?
This attitude is the child of it's birth.

Jess, ever since I saw SoMG's post I've been looking at different weight related sites. I found a really cool site that graphs different height/weight pictures of men and women. It is AMAZING, to see someone else of your weight and to realize that how we see ourselves is *really* flawed. I'm so glad you've overcome your ED, and I really hope that everyone can come to a more healthy acceptance of weight.

Here's the chart:

http://www.cockeyed.com/photos/bodies/heightweight.shtml

Jill,

I think you look very pretty in that picture! I'm sure you're having a good time out there! Seriously people, the mockery of one's looks is at the very least, PATHETIC. And sad.

I'd wear that shirt if it said "pro-life boys" on it..it's cute.

Jess: to everyone who called Jill fat, shut up.

Good grief - no doubt. ^5 (high-five) Jess.

This is Jill's place, and anyway it's certainly "bad form" as well as just very lame to talk about somebody's appearance.

Come on now, you grouches, no matter how Pro-Choice you may be - Jill's actually quite cute, and....

and early on in my experience here she told me about her grandson, and I could feel her in that, and no matter how much I or anybody else might disagree with some of her positions and some of the things she's said, I don't think anybody can say she's a "bad" person nor is there any need to try and cut her down with childish stuff.

And I'd say that goes for Pro-Life grouches too, since we've sure seen some of them too, some of them at times quite critical of Jill.

It boils down, way down, to disagreeing with what a person says, versus ad hominem baloney.

Ah, message boards.....

Doug

Jill: I cannot fathom why girls would knowingly hook up with boys who, they know ahead of time, would encourage them to abort their child after an oopsie.

And right here I gotta disagree, Jill. Pro-Choice boys are going to let the woman decide what is best, they're not going to try and "encourage" (or otherwise act against) the woman against her will.

Hi Ms. Stanek,

I heard you on Moody radio this morning. Thank you for sharing your story. It was also interesting to hear about what was going on at the DNC.

Best wishes.
MR

Pro-Choice boys are going to let the woman decide what is best, they're not going to try and "encourage" (or otherwise act against) the woman against her will.

Doug, 64 percent of abortions are coerced abortions.* Please don't be naive.

You personally may not encourage an abortion from anyone. That may be true. But to assume that ALL people on your side are equally 'fair' is a bit naive.

(And I put 'fair' in quotes, because leaving the woman alone to figure out for herself what to do in an emotional crisis situation is anything but fair to the woman. I would be so extremely hurt if the person I loved and trusted was so non-supportive and nonchalant during a time when I needed him the most)

* VM Rue et. al., “Induced abortion and traumatic stress: A preliminary comparison of American and Russian women,” Medical Science Monitor 10(10): SR5-16 (2004).
http://journals.indexcopernicus.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=11784

http://noticias.aol.com/inmigracion/quiz/citizenship

Quiz.

Patricia:

For once your post was so honest! If only you'd know when to stop:

"Alexandra I lived with a liberal pro-contraception man for 11 years - he was my husband. I didn't know he held these views but it became apparent that he favoured many liberal ideas as time passed and that he lied to me. I would NEVER marry another man"-FULL STOP.

So when's the coming out party, dearie?

Lol great Lauren! This is me:
http://www.cockeyed.com/photos/bodies/504-120.shtml

5'4 and 125lbs. Actually, 120-130, it shifts between those two pretty easily. What I lack in boobs I make for in booty : )

If this wasn't so sad, it would be funny...

Australia Baby Bonus Measure Includes Accidental Loophole Paying for Abortions
Canberra, Australia (LifeNews.com) -- Needing to boost its birth rate to respond to the abortions that have plagued the nation's population and caused a worker shortage, Australian officials instituted a baby bonus paying $5,000 per child. However, an accidental loophole in the law allows women who have late-term abortions to receive the money. The loophole came about because abortion practitioners wrongly list late-term abortions as stillbirths in official governmental medical records. Under the baby bonus statute, women who become pregnant but sadly lose their child during the pregnancy still qualify for the bonus. Full story at LifeNews.com.

Woot! 100% on that test!

Jill, you and I have the same haircut (for now- I am very noncommital when it comes to my hair)!

Alexandra I lived with a liberal pro-contraception man for 11 years - he was my husband. I didn't know he held these views but it became apparent that he favoured many liberal ideas as time passed and that he lied to me. I would NEVER marry another man who didn't have the same values as me. Every man who believes in contraception has NEVER said to me - well lets have a friendship and then lets move on to see if we having anything that might develop into marriage. EVERY pro-contraception man I've ever dated has placed SEX first and foremost in the relationship and very quickly too I might add. IMO, they are losers! They see women not as persons but as sex objects.
If you think your man loves you and cares about you, ask him to marry you. I guarantee you he will have a zillion excuses. Or maybe it will be you with the excuses.

Right you are, Patricia. Very sound advice. My husband was one of the good ones; I was very fortunate. We were best friends for 1 year before getting engaged, and then another 2 years before getting married. And we're still best friends today.

Doug, (@8:13)

Great Job! I'm so proud.

Jess, 7:04, what a sweet post!! :)

Doug, ditto what I said to Jess to your 8:13 post!

Phylo, 8:32, please.

If you think your man loves you and cares about you, ask him to marry you. I guarantee you he will have a zillion excuses.

Wow, that's quite a guarantee, considering you know basically nothing about my boyfriend other than that he's pro-choice. And virtually nothing about me.

Alexandra, I'm sorry...I missed your 4:23 post. I sometimes seem to read the posts backwards when I'm catching up...it's really stupid of me.

Sally, I don't think I explained it well. Basically, a certain type of man will see a woman's refusal to abort as an afront on HIS "right to not have a baby".

Then, an even more deranged subgroup will take this further and kill the woman because SHE'S TRYING TO RUIN MY LIFE!

Have you seen Match Point? It deals with this theme.
Posted by: lauren at August 26, 2008 6:39 PM

Lauren:

There's also that whole group of men who are anti-choice as part of their misogynist platform. They might be vocally against abortion as women's choice, but hells' bells - when it comes to his woman (his property in his misogynistic mind) she'll abort or not by his choosing - and if it interferes with his fishing trip or new SUV well, then she'll abort. But if he thinks it's time for a little Junior, then, well she'll just produce one. Like rape, this type of "thinking" (violence) isn't about pro/anti-choice/life moral stands. It's about violence/power and control over women.

Well Patricia, since you are the one who stated what you think Nancy Pelosi should do, you certainly won't mind, and certainly the mods won't object, if I suggest the same for your dinner? What Patricia? Oh, you're Catholic - oh that's right, you've already tasted and swallowed a whole load of it.

Alexandra, I'm sorry...I missed your 4:23 post. I sometimes seem to read the posts backwards when I'm catching up...it's really stupid of me.

Don't worry about it, Bethany. It's not that stupid -- I asked what the sheets of shame were on the sheets of shame post today!

Anyway, by this point I'm quite used to people telling me that my boyfriend throws me away every night like a used tissue. Like I said, all it does is remind me how absolutely incorrect the people I'm talking to are.

Sorry- that 64% of abortions being coerced (sp) stat is CRAP. There's too many holes in that one to even bother arguing.

And to everyone who called Jill fat, shut up. Honestly. Oh yeah you're all *really* pro-choice. You support a woman's right to choose what to do with her body unless she *gasp* gains weight and isn't super sexy to you anymore. Jill has every right to weigh whatever she wants. And any intelligent person would know extra weight doesn't mean unhealthy. It's a combination of factors. I was skinny when I was bulimic, was I healthier then?

Jill you're beautiful I love you keep smiling!
Posted by: Jess at August 26, 2008 7:04 PM

Jess dear, you really do have a kind heart. But remember the things Jill has said about pro-choicers? remember how she wants to control other women's bodies? how she thinks she has a right to say what goes on in your uterus?
Either everyone has a right to bodily privacy or no one does - it's a foundational principle.

If you don't like the comments, you won't like world as Jill would have it, either.

If you don't like the comments, you won't like world as Jill would have it, either.

Like those are the only two options. I always hate when people say, "This is the way the world is!" when they're the ones making it that way.

There is really no reason to make fun of someone's appearance.

For one, no one's appearance comes into any of this. You may feel personally attacked by Jill's opinions, but they are not designed to personally attack you, which is not the case with comments about Jill's appearance.

For another, Jill is pretty adorable.

And making fun of the bodies of women you deem acceptable has an exponential effect, and it's no better than people here calling Clinton a dyke with dykey man calves -- they're just targeting different women than you are. Allowing comments like that, even about people you disagree with, sends the message that we are all targets for ridicule. That's not the case. We are all people worthy of respect, even though we all disagree to the point of offending each other at times.

"Well, there's just so much high fructose corn syrup starving children can eat - you know?"
Posted by: phylosopher at August 26, 2008 4:30 PM

Corn grown for ethanol based fuel is taking the place of other grains that could be grown.

"Jess dear, you really do have a kind heart. But remember the things Jill has said about pro-choicers? remember how she wants to control other women's bodies? how she thinks she has a right to say what goes on in your uterus?
Either everyone has a right to bodily privacy or no one does - it's a foundational principle.

If you don't like the comments, you won't like world as Jill would have it, either."
Posted by: phylosopher at August 26, 2008 9:00 PM

You don't see a grave moral difference between a few extra pounds and ending human life for your own convenience?

BTW, I think Jill is beautiful.

Corn grown for ethanol based fuel is taking the place of other grains that could be grown.

Yeah, but weren't we growing way more corn than other grains anyway, because of the farm bill/subsidies? Which is partially what helped absolute crap food to become so cheap and so prevalent?

I don't even think ethanol-based fuel is the way to go. I just don't think that it's the reason we're growing so much freaking corn. Vegetables and cattle grazing have mostly received less government support, which has distorted the farm economy, as far as I've been able to tell.

Well Patricia, since you are the one who stated what you think Nancy Pelosi should do, you certainly won't mind, and certainly the mods won't object, if I suggest the same for your dinner? What Patricia? Oh, you're Catholic - oh that's right, you've already tasted and swallowed a whole load of it.

Posted by: phylospher at August 26, 2008 8:54 PM

You can suggest whatever you wish phylosopher. But at least I have some integrity. At least I live what I believe and belong to a faith that I believe in and practice what it teaches.
Ms Pelosi is a hyprocrite of the highest degree. She, first of all, KNOWS exactly what her Catholic faith teaches and believes regarding abortion. She is misrepresenting her faith on national television and has scandalized millions of Catholics. She herself KNOWS when life begins, but has rationalized her position to fit the politics. She rightfully has been rebuked by the Catholic bishops.
If she doesnt believe the tenets of the Catholic faith and is unwilling to practice it and defend the teachings of her faith, then she should move on. WE DON'T WANT HER!

Alexandra, I'm not sure on the validity of this because I can't remember the source, but I remember hearing that farmers are often paid to burn their crops.

Does anyone have any info on this?

Jess, I thought that woman looked particuarlly good lol!

Right now I feel fat because I'm in that awkward phase after pregnancy when you look pretty normal but your jeans say otherwise. Anyways, after seeing that chart I was like "psh, I look pretty good...what am I freaking out about?"

Alexandra--hope this helps--

"Because corn is a building block for the country’s entire food supply, it is driving price inflation in the food sector towards 4.5 percent this year.

“The problem, according to food manufacturers and supermarket executives,” reports the LA Times, “is . . . the cost of grain, which has soared as an ever growing amount of corn is diverted to make ethanol to mix with gasoline.”

Lauren counts your blessings, at least you didn't have six at once! Kate from the show "John and Kate Plus 8" (twins and sextuplets).
http://ordinarymoments.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/willow_street_pictures_gosselin_discovery_health_1_086_color2.jpg
You aren't popping back after that : /

I just watched Hilary's speech and it was fantastic. They put the camera on the former president Clinton once at the very beginning and he was watching his wife be applauded and was smiling, with tears in his eyes, mouthing "I love you" over and over again. It was phenomenally touching.

Erin,

Yes it was pretty good. Stragetically speaking, I think your party really blew it throwing HRC under the bus and leaving her off the ticket.

Oh, good! It's over! Now I can turn on the weather report.

Phylosopher,

Explain to me how it is that abortion is a woman's right. Im curious what your personal reasonings are. You state so matter of factly that it is, so go ahead, lets here what you have to say on it.

Erin:

All of us are victims, every single one. Victims of satan's deceptions. The way of escape is being forgiven by Jesus Christ and then forgiving those that have hurt us. Period. Of course, forsaking the Liberal philisophy is a start.

When Sally posts her vitriolic hatred of men and groups them all together, that offends me deeply. Not me personally but my sons, who I have brought up to be respectful of women. And the sad thing is, Liberals via NOW and PP and NARAL feed into this self-destructive mind set in exchange for power.

The sad thing is that no good man would ever want to be associated with the woman the Liberals see as a "liberated" woman. Who could rspect such a woman? It's no wonder they all feel like victims, there in the wrong store shopping for the wrong men.

Lauren, in MATCH POINT the music you hear during the murder is Verdi's opera OTELLO.

SoMG...which opera do you have playing over the sound systen when you're killing the babies in your clinic?

Anything to dress up the evil you're commiting...

I think SoMG cares a lot about women. Enough to want to protect and help them exercise their rights. I'd be happy to have a doctor like SoMG treating me or performing my abortion- because I'd know that it was one who was passionate about what he was doing.

Posted by: Erin at August 26, 2008 5:11 PM

Erin, did you see what SOMG posted yesterday about why he likes to commit abortions on people like you?
Every abortion I do, every student I train, and every advance in abortifacient technology I help develop is partly a way of pissing in the faces of those who promote RTL terror.
Posted by: SoMG at August 23, 2008 7:16 AM

Erin, the reason SOMG provides the service to kill your baby for you is in order to get back at RTL'ers. And you are comfortable with that?
Well, I guess any woman who is comfortable with getting her baby ripped from her womb in pieces is more morbid then I could ever understand.

It was funny watching Hillary say her supporters should vote for Obama NOT because of of who Obama is or his capabilities as president, but so that she could have an easier time passing her agenda. News flash, you don't elect a president to help the senators and congress, you elect a president cuase he has character. It sounded to me like Hillary was saying we need to vote Obama so the Democratic congress and senate can tell him what to do/ push their agenda as president. Obama is such a loser and Hillary knows it.

Erin,
In your experience, is one of the reasons some women choose to have an abortion just to "piss in the face of RTL'ers"?

Maybe the back side of that slut's shirt should say: "I abort to piss in the face of RTL'ers"

Just because a person doesn't agree with you doesn't make them a slut. Way to show your true colors, ts.

And look. I had an abortion because I DID NOT WANT TO HAVE A BABY. That's all. That's it. That's the whole, entire reason. It really seems to bother PLers that I don't have some dark ulterior motive.

HisMan- I am with a phenomenally good liberal man whom I love and who loves me feverishly. I believe we will most likely get married. Does it bother you to see happy liberal? Do you think we should all be miserable, because we're not like you?

Posted by: Erin at August 26, 2008 10:10 PM

Excuse me while I go vomit. And it's not because it's those two. I'd vomit an any politician who does that. It's SO fake. YUCK!

Erin,

That is a pretty dark motive, albeit not an ulterior one.

There really is not "philosophical" justification to have an abortion to "not have a baby," unless you are talking about labor and delivery. However, there is no justification to abort to avoid labor and delivery either if you really think about it. If you claimed you aborted because you didnt want your preborn to make you fat or because you didnt like the idea of a blood to blood transfer, you would have a better case honestly.

I wouldnt call you a monster...just confused. My issue isnt with any one particular person, but our society in general. Im not even upset with SoMG. He truly believes his views are justified.

And look. I had an abortion because I DID NOT WANT TO HAVE A BABY. That's all. That's it. That's the whole, entire reason. It really seems to bother PLers that I don't have some dark ulterior motive.

Well Erin, all I can say, is that if you didn't want a baby why on earth were you having sex? Sex makes babies, even when women and men are contracepting. You killed your baby for convenience. I'd say that's a pretty "dark" reason.
If you got pregnant now, would you have another abortion? I wonder....

Alexandra added:
Of course, you are anti-abortion and I am pro.

Pro-choice or pro-abortion? There is a difference, you know.... ;)

Nevertheless, I find something (perhaps unintentionally) revealing in your choice of which line of mine to quote and how to respond. You quoted me as saying:
I'm consistently opposed to killing innocent children. :)

To which you responded:
Of course, you are anti-abortion and I am pro.

The most favorable interpretation of your response is to call it a non sequitur. Many pro-choicers would steadfastly deny that abortion rights have any relationship with killing children. Abortion ends a pregnancy, or it removes a product of conception, or perhaps it expels a womb parasite ... but it certainly doesn't kill children.

Naturally, this viewpoint doesn't stand up to even a casual viewing of modern ultrasounds, such as this picture or this other picture. By the way, those aren't stock ultrasounds from some pro-life website. They are actual images from a 4D ultrasound session that my family did when my wife was 32 weeks' pregnant with our third child. the kiddo in those pictures is two years old now....

The other alternative is more chilling. It requires me to believe that you know that abortion kills children, and that's okay with you. And then you can casually dismiss it by saying, "I am pro." Pro-what? Pro-child-killing? Really?

Unfortunately, your following statement:
But my point is, the views a man holds about whether someone's right to life trump another's right to bodily autonomy do not indicate his ability to respect a women, or all women.

... seems to argue for the second interpretation. In other words, you know that abortion kills a child. You even seem to acknowledge that the child has a right to life. Still, you cling to a belief that it can be justified. Is my understanding accurate?

You also wrote:
It's simplistic to say that pro-choice men are losers who lie and have no self control, and that assertion was what I was responding to.

Here, we agree. Some pro-choice men are self-centered schmucks. In hindsight, I was one such schmuck. Even so, I am willing to grant that some pro-choice men are merely ignorant of the facts of abortion. Out of their ignorance, they seek to be sympathetic to their wives, girlfriends, and daughters ... and so they are pro-choice. They are not losers or liars, merely decent chaps who are sadly ignorant of the basic truth of abortion.

People like Patricia have been telling me for nigh on three years now that one day my boyfriend will leave me broken and alone, because that's what pro-choice men do, they use women and throw them away.

People should not claim to know the future unless they truly have the gift of prophecy. :)

I am not a prophet, so I will admit that your relationship with your boyfriend could last for the long term. For your sake, I hope that it will.

All it really does, honestly, is make me more convinced than ever that people like that are wrong, because I see how wrong they are every single day of my life.

The natural rejoinder is that you will continue to believe that she is wrong ... right up until the day that she is proved right. :-/

Nonetheless, I hope that you are right, and that she is wrong. The statistics are against you, but none of us actually know your boyfriend's heart. He could be the sort of guy that beats the odds and goes the distance. We don't know. Hopefully, you do know, and you are choosing wisely.

Since you keep mentioning him, is it reasonable to ask whether or not you two have plans for marriage?

People like Patricia have been telling me for nigh on three years now that one day my boyfriend will leave me broken and alone, because that's what pro-choice men do, they use women and throw them away.

My point has been and remains that that co-habitating relationships last on average 18 mons before either partner moves on. They generally do not experience the committment of marriage. This means some last longer and others not so long.The point I have always tried to make, is that co-habitating is NOT practice for marriage. Research has shown it is practice for serial monogamy and divorce. Apparently, everyone who is co-habitating on this blog, is a success story - for now.

Mod's, I would really like if you could remove TS's comment at 2:11 a.m. It is offensive, thanks.

Erin,

I would call your motives pretty selfish, but I'm sure you acknowledge that already. That is however why you did not want to have a baby, because of you, you, you. And while that makes me sad, it does not make me at all surprised. Just sad for you for being that self-absorbed.

Some pro-choice men are self-centered schmucks. In hindsight, I was one such schmuck. Even so, I am willing to grant that some pro-choice men are merely ignorant of the facts of abortion. Out of their ignorance, they seek to be sympathetic to their wives, girlfriends, and daughters ... and so they are pro-choice. They are not losers or liars, merely decent chaps who are sadly ignorant of the basic truth of abortion.

I agree with this.

Pro-choice or pro-abortion? There is a difference, you know.... ;)

We've been through this before. I have no problem framing the conflict as being anti-abortion rights versus pro-abortion rights. But if we are framing it in terms of the ideological reasons that we are anti- or pro-abortion rights, then it's pro-life and pro-choice. You are anti-abortion rights because you're pro-life. I'm pro-abortion rights because I'm pro-choice.

Still, you cling to a belief that it can be justified. Is my understanding accurate?

Yes. I am really not looking to get into yet another conversation about "But if I want to get rid of my kid I have to at least make a phone call!!!!!" because it's been done, by me and by you and by others here, more than once already.

Since you keep mentioning him, is it reasonable to ask whether or not you two have plans for marriage?

I really don't talk about him much, at least not here. Every so often I muster up the energy to remind people who say ignorant things that they're not correct, and this was one of those times. We are not engaged, which I would define as 'having plans for marriage.'

I'm applauding Erin's refreshing honesty and candor here.

She didn't have to reveal that she had an abortion, but she did.

She could've tried to play up a tragic story to somehow make her choices more palatable for this audience, but she didn't.

She told you clear-eyed and soberly, 1) I got pregnant 2)I didn't want to have a baby 3)I had an abortion.

Period. Done. She doesn't owe you any further background, information or justification.

So, thank you to Erin, for bringing down the hysterics on this issue and demonstrating that many times (if not most), teens, single women or married mothers decide to end a pregnancy with knowledge, forethought and rationality and aren't broken, damaged women because of it. Abortion is a life-changing event, but not necessarily a damning one. People make a choice and just get on with it.

The point I have always tried to make, is that co-habitating is NOT practice for marriage.

No, the point you were making here was that pro-choice men all losers who have no respect for women, no self-control, and an inability to honor their promises.

So Patricia is it better for these people to get married and then divorced in 18 months then simply move out? Oh that's right, marriage is a sacred commitment and NO ONE gets divorced.

..demonstrating that many times (if not most), teens, single women or married mothers decide to end a pregnancy with knowledge, forethought and rationality and aren't broken, damaged women because of it. Abortion is a life-changing event, but not necessarily a damning one. People make a choice and just get on with it.

Posted by: Danielle at August 27, 2008 9:50 AM

in fact, Erin stated that she didn't want to have a baby.
Most women abort for convenience, not becuase of some dire circumstance, although there certainly are women who are abandoned etc.
But by now, there are so many social agencies to turn to, that most women should be savvy enough to find the help they need should they require it.
IMO, not "wanting" a baby is NOT a rational nor significant excuse for an abortion. If a woman or man is not ready to be a parent then don't have sex. It's really that simple. What you are saying is that for you abortion was a backup to what I presume was a contraceptive failure or just an unwillingness to face the consequences of sex.
Having said that, I don't damn you Erin, by any means. I just hope that some day you realise what you have done. I see you as a victim of our culture.

People make a choice and just get on with it.

Posted by: Danielle at August 27, 2008 9:50 AM

I certainly wish I could be so cavalier about the death of a baby as you apparently can be Danielle. Simply amazes me....

To me there is NO difference between a proabort and a prochoice. After all WHAT is the choice - between life and death. When a woman uses choice - she chooses death for her baby. The choice comes BEFORE the sex.

So Patricia is it better for these people to get married and then divorced in 18 months then simply move out? Oh that's right, marriage is a sacred commitment and NO ONE gets divorced.

Posted by: Jess at August 27, 2008 10:16 AM

It's better that people remain chaste before marriage and treat members of the opposite sex as persons and not objects. People should marry with the intent to remain with that person for life and with the purpose of being in service to their spouse and offering the gift of self to the other. That is true marriage.

I agree with everything Danielle said at 9:50 a.m.

And Jasper, the Democrats didn't "throw Hillary under the bus," she lost the primary.

And like everyone who lost primaries before her, she's getting on board the train to victory.

And like everyone who lost primaries before her, she's getting on board the train to victory.

Posted by: Hal at August 27, 2008 10:37 AM

in your dreams....

"IMO, not "wanting" a baby is NOT a rational nor significant excuse for an abortion. If a woman or man is not ready to be a parent then don't have sex. It's really that simple."

In your dreams. Not wanting a baby, sometimes for years, sometimes forever, should preclude a healthy sex life. Sexuality for most people is an important part of their lives. Better birth control and better education will reduce the sex=babies link to some extent. Unwanted pregnancies will always happen, I suspect, and that's why abortion in some form will always be with us.

Danielle,
What of the women that ARE broken or damaged by abortion? What of them? What of those that simply try to "get on with it" because that is what they are told to do but they can't? What of them? The nightmares, the shame, guilt and pain of realizing what they have done to an innocent child has to be dealt with somehow, someway....

Yes. I would agree Erin is honest and straightforward about her abortion. She had an abortion almost a year ago and doesn't regret it in the least. It breaks my heart to read her words, but I said them myself 18 years ago.

Not wanting a baby, sometimes for years, sometimes forever, should preclude a healthy sex life.

In fact, this is a very distorted view of sexuality Hal.

The healthy and correct view of sex is that it is designed to unify a husband and wife and make them one body and one soul, with the view of creating a new life which represents, in the flesh, their love. A child is the incarnation of their spousal love.
Of course, it often doesn't work out this way because we are humans prone to making mistakes. But this IS the way it has been designed and it IS what we should all strive for.

Your view, is sex as a sport or mere recreation - a crass and vulgar view of it with the result that the baby is seen as the problem to having a healthy sex life. Once seen as such, then any means will be justified to remove this "intruder".
In fact, the people I know who have the best sex are those with the most children!
Science and recent research does NOT support your claim, Hal. Recent studies on the use of BC for example demonstrate that women on the pill have lower libido and do not bond well with their partners. Couples reporting the happiest sex lives are women and men in stable marriages with some sort of religious beliefs.

Yes. I would agree Erin is honest and straightforward about her abortion. She had an abortion almost a year ago and doesn't regret it in the least. It breaks my heart to read her words, but I said them myself 18 years ago.

Posted by: Carla at August 27, 2008 10:49 AM

peace to you Carla. Hope you are having a good day and enjoying your "kitty-kats" - my dad's term for us when we were kids!!

"The healthy and correct view of sex is that it is designed to unify a husband and wife and make them one body and one soul, with the view of creating a new life which represents, in the flesh, their love"

Says you. Which is fine, for you. I just can't accept your premise that people who don't want babies simply should not have sex. Some people don't want babies until they're in their 30s. No sex from 18 to 30????? Some people just never want to have children. No sex ever?

Says you. Which is fine, for you. I just can't accept your premise that people who don't want babies simply should not have sex. Some people don't want babies until they're in their 30s. No sex from 18 to 30????? Some people just never want to have children. No sex ever?

Posted by: Hal at August 27, 2008 10:59 AM

nope. not says me.
sex is much more sacred than just a roll in the hay Hal!
That me be all it is to you, but I think we are called to something more than just that.

no marriage, no sex and therfore no kids.

yup, if you feel that you don't want kids, direct your energies to something positive like helping others in this world instead of thinking all the time of your own self-gratification.

sorry but I believe we are ABOVE being animals. We have an intellect too and we can easily discern that there is something more to this than what you claim...

"IMO, not "wanting" a baby is NOT a rational nor significant excuse for an abortion. If a woman or man is not ready to be a parent then don't have sex."

-Exactly: In your opinion. Mine is, having a baby shouldn't be used as a form of punishment to chastise women for making choices that counter to someone else's morality.

"I certainly wish I could be so cavalier about the death of a baby as you apparently can be Danielle. Simply amazes me...."

-That's ok. I don't expect or need everyone to share my viewpoint. I also don't feel the need to try and change your opinion that my view is being 'cavalier about the death of a baby.' Believe as you wish.

"It's better that people remain chaste before marriage and treat members of the opposite sex as persons and not objects. People should marry with the intent to remain with that person for life and with the purpose of being in service to their spouse and offering the gift of self to the other."

Posted by: Patricia at August 27, 2008 10:33 AM

-I agree with your definition of marriage and monogamy. I do not agree with your view that without marriage, one should remain chaste:

a)I enjoy sex too much for that(as everyone does) and don't think it's a sin outside of marriage;

b)there's no guarantee that a married couple wants to have children, either. Saving sex for marriage doesn't necessarily cancel out an unwanted pregnancy;

c-z)I could go on, but no need. We understand each other's position as well as we're going to.

Danielle: "-Exactly: In your opinion. Mine is, having a baby shouldn't be used as a form of punishment to chastise women for making choices that counter to someone else's morality"

Yeah it shouldnt be and rarely is. However, what should be immoral is the destruction of a preborn because you do not want a child.

Lets apply that same exact motive to a living child. Is it okay to destroy your child "because you do not want a child?"

Of course not. That would be murder!

How is different Danielle? Im curious what your thoughts are.

"Danielle,What of the women that ARE broken or damaged by abortion? What of them? What of those that simply try to "get on with it" because that is what they are told to do but they can't? What of them? The nightmares, the shame, guilt and pain of realizing what they have done to an innocent child has to be dealt with somehow, someway...."

Posted by: Carla at August 27, 2008 10:49 AM

-For those who regret their decision, I am glad that there are services available (mental health providers, physicians, church, etc) for support and its unfortunate that their experience was so traumatizing. It happens, I'm not refuting it. My point here is that's not the whole picture. There are many, many women and couples who felt comfortable with their decision, had positive interaction with medical staff and DO NOT REGRET THEIR CHOICE. I'm sure that is difficult to comprehend to some but it's the truth. They don't require sympathy or prayer - seems like that should be reserved for those who are struggling.

I'm growing tired of the assumption that all/most women who have an abortion experience some sort of PTSD and if they don't immediately repent and show martyr-like remorse for their 'mistake' that the only justification is that their trauma is latent or somehow repressed. Sometimes, it simply is what it is.

"There are many, many women and couples who felt comfortable with their decision, had positive interaction with medical staff and DO NOT REGRET THEIR CHOICE"

And this proves what? I could say the same about any violent crime.

There are many, many men and women who felt comfortable wit their decision to murder someone, (the medical staff part doesnt quite apply), and DO NOT REGRET THEIR CHOICE

Sweet, I just proved murder moral.

Good points Danielle. The fact that some women regret their decision is not a reason to take the right to make the decision away from others. Some women regret dropping out of college, but we don't make that illegal. I could give 100 other examples. Adults in free socieities make decisions and live with the consequences. (yes, "the baby is the one who suffers the consequenes" I know, I know.)

Hal,

So Hal, why should we keep it legal, but still make it illegal to neglect your child, including withholding breast milk?

Alexandra added:
Yes. I am really not looking to get into yet another conversation about "But if I want to get rid of my kid I have to at least make a phone call!!!!!" because it's been done, by me and by you and by others here, more than once already.

So just to clarify: Abortion kills a child, and you're okay with killing children.

(I don't know where the phone call gets into the picture. Why on Earth would a phone call make it okay to kill a child?)

Are you willing to approve of all child-killing? If a woman whacks her toddler over the head with a shovel and buries him in the back yard, is that okay? How far does this right to child-killing extend in your view? Which children can be killed, and which children should be saved?