Obama campaign continues to lie about his Born Alive vote

This morning Eric Zorn of the Chicago Tribune posted a response from the Obama campaign to this week's revelation that Obama actually did vote against an identical version of the federal Born Alive while state senator, contrary to his repeated statements over the years otherwise.

Here's what Zorn said the Obama campaign sent him:

slide 1 obama response.JPGslide 2 obama response.JPGfailed.jpg

Well, if that doesn't beat all. They're continuing to lie despite documentation. I expected many responses, but not that one.

Below is the vote tally, from the IL General Assembly archives. Anyone can get this vote tally by contacting the ILGA. Click to enlarge....

"DP#1" means "Do Pass Amendment #1." "DPA" means "Do Pass as Amended"

final vote.jpg

Obama first voted to accept Amendment #1 (i.e., paragraph c) and then voted against the amended bill, which was identical to the federal Born Alive bill.

Here's more documentation, the IL Senate Republican Staff Analysis from that day:

committe report.jpg

I'm really surprised by the Obama campaign's audacity. Oh, maybe I shouldn't be, since audacity is his forte.

Read the response to Zorn's post by Doug Johnson of National Right to Life below.

From Eric Zorn blog:

It is rather astonishing that, in light of the new documents that came to light this week, the Obama campaign here continues to brazenly misrepresent the content of the state Born-Alive Infants Protection Act (BAIPA) legislation that Obama killed in 2003. The Obama campaign's purported side-by-side comparison of the state and federal bills shown above is flatly false. Here's the documented truth: On March 13, 2003, Obama -- as chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee -- actually presided over a committee meeting at which an amendment was adopted that added to S. 1082 EXACTLY the "neutrality clause" that had been copied from the federal bill (falsely described by the Obama campaign as a "failed amendment not included in final legislation"). (The adopted amendment also removed the phrase "(c) A live child born as a result of an abortion shall be fully recognized as a human person and accorded immediate protection under the law," thereby making the state bill and the federal law virtually identical.) You can read these official documents yourself by going to the NRLC home page at NRLC-dot-org and clicking on the newly released Obama documents at the top of the NRLC home page.

The documents posted there contain a side-by-side of the REAL text of the bill that Obama killed (as opposed to the fictional version shown above), side-by-side with the federal law that he claims to support. There is virtually no difference between the two. The claimed differences cited above simply did not exist at the time that Obama and his colleagues voted down the bill on March 13, 2003.

By way, in 2000, even BEFORE the "neutrality clause" was added to the federal bill, it passed the U.S. House of Representatives by a vote of 380-15. In other words, nearly all of the "pro-choice" members of the U.S. House rejected the notion (embraced by Obama) that the original bill -- even without a "neutrality" clause -- somehow conflicted with Roe v. Wade. That's because the bill, on its face, dealt only with infants who had been born alive. After the "neutrality clause" was added, the federal bill passed the Senate and House without a dissenting vote -- yet, as now documented, Obama subsequently killed the cloned state bill.

In an apparent attempt to generate a smokescreen around its core of disinformation, the Obama "response" also contains a great deal of diversionary, irrelevant information. The discussion here, and the focus of the Obama disinformation campaign, is the federal Born-Alive Infants Protection Act (BAIPA) and its 2003 counterpart, S.B. 1082 as amended. The "Induced Birth Infant Liability Act" is an entirely different piece of legislation that is not even at issue in this discussion. Also, the old Illinois law concerning late abortions was virtually worthless in that it gave complete discretion to an abortionist to decide if the baby was "viable" enough to require the assistance of a second physician.

Douglas Johnson, Legislative Director
Susan Muskett, Legislative Counsel
National Right to Life Committee
Washington, D.C.
202-626-8820
Legfederal@aol.com

Posted by: Douglas Johnson | Aug 14, 2008 10:42:32 AM


Comments:

Zorn really has it out for you.

Posted by: carder at August 14, 2008 6:16 PM


Excellent Jill:

I am standing with you and praying for you in your battle against the lies of Mr. Obama and his hnadlers.

Keep it up!!!

We are more than conquerors.

Posted by: HisMan at August 14, 2008 6:35 PM


Jill,

Thanks for all you do for Life. The truth will prevail!

Posted by: Janet at August 14, 2008 8:28 PM


Jill:

Was watching Hannity and Colmes and Sean mentioned that he was having you on a week from Sunday.

I will pray for a large audience, I will pray that you have clarity of mind, I will pray that God give you favor, I will pray that God helps you make a connection with the women of the world who are victimized by abortion.

Don't forget to be forceful and show your moral outrage agaainst Obama and do not not back down, do not, do not, do not. For you have the truth on your side and have been chosen to be a witness against this monster. God is on your side and you and He are the majority. Get Obama's handlers him to attack you and then we'll see how pro-woman this guy really is.

How ironic, a real woman, taking down a would be President. Aren't God's ways wonderful?

Posted by: HisMan at August 14, 2008 8:56 PM


His Man, thank you very much for your continued prayers, just as you cited now... :) Amen.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at August 14, 2008 9:05 PM


I 2nd that HisMan.

Posted by: Jasper at August 14, 2008 9:08 PM


Yawn. Who doesn't already know Obama is extremely pro-choice?

Posted by: SoMG at August 14, 2008 9:13 PM


"How ironic, a real woman, taking down a would be President. Aren't God's ways wonderful?"

Why is that ironic? Of course Jill is a real woman, and I wouldn't be surprised if she usurped the presidency and renamed the country Jillreal.

Posted by: Jess at August 14, 2008 9:38 PM


Then I'd be exiled.

Posted by: Jess at August 14, 2008 9:39 PM


Jill -

I commend you for your courage and tenacity. When I was in college, I used to respect "pro-choice" people while disagreeing with them because the vast majority were simply misguided about what is a life and what is not a life. If you don't believe an unborn child is a human being, then it is logical to believe it is your property to do with as you see fit. Of course, it makes no sense to try to create an arbitrary beginning to life - if cells are dividing, that pretty much means life. I find it intolerable that we have now reached the point where there is a widespread belief that the unborn child is a human being, yet it is still permissible to murder it. The stakes are clear in this election. There is no right that surpasses the right to life, or we are simply Nazi Germany II. If McCain wins, Roe v Wade will be overturned on his watch, and the murder of the unborn will be illegal in several states. If Obama wins, as he told Planned Parenthood, his FIRST priority will be the Freedom of Choice Act. We should not doubt this, as he clearly believes that the right to murder your unborn child must be protected at all costs, including the right to kill your child after birth. I have a beautiful 9 month old son; this morning, while playing "Mr. Mom" while my wife is out of town, I goofed and it resulted in him hitting his head on a corner of the changing table. A VERY minor injury, but I spent the next two hours beating myself up over it. What kind of monster demands the right to kill their OWN unborn child, and, further, the right to let that child die without medical attention should that murder attempt fail?? It is beyond disgusting that a Catholic priest like Michael Pfleger so enthusiastically supports this monster, and equally disgusting that his boss, the spineless Francis George, does nothing to make it clear how the Catholic vote must go. Thank God we have people like you to speak for those who are unable to speak for themselves. God bless!

Posted by: Kevin Keane at August 14, 2008 10:02 PM


"If you don't believe an unborn child is a human being"

It's a human being but what you think is a "child" is not what everybody thinks. To take it to an extreme, for clarity, is a blastocyst a "child"? Is the zygote a "child"? Obviously not, regardless of what you might say.

Posted by: Ernst at August 14, 2008 10:12 PM


Ernst 10:12, a human zygote is probably more of a child than you are. But one never knows: some people never grow up, even if they are allowed to. Or they act more like monkeys than human beings--as volunteers, not because of insanity.

A seed is not a tree, but it is an oak or maple or pine. Hands off a human life from start to finish! "For in the image of God He made man" (Gen. 9:6).

Posted by: Jon at August 14, 2008 10:26 PM


Ernst -

Typical response. First of all, what gives you the right to kill a human being at any stage of development??? What's the difference between a "child" and a zygote? One is cuter and more cuddly??? Secondly, the issue with Obama's disgusting record has nothing to do with zygotes and blastocysts - and nothing rankles me more than hearing that he opposed the measure because "he's pro-choice" - pathetic.

Posted by: Kevin Keane at August 14, 2008 10:28 PM


SoMG:

Since you begged the question...

Proably enough undecided and principled voters that didn't know he voted against the Illinois Born Alive Infant Protection Act to make a difference in November.

You forget that you live in a distorted world where you see and perform abortions, the termination of innocent life, everyday. Your heart as well as your precious Obama have been hardened against the most vulnerable in our society. I don't have words to describe you, there's just nothing there, except perhaps, despicable.

Kevin:

You are a real man. No real man can hurt a tiny child. How tall is Barack? 6 foot something? And this guy voted not to protect an innocent human being that hung on to life even though the intent was his murder by careless, cowardly adults. I know a few football players that would like to show that puke what it feels to get tackled by a real man. We need you on this site.

Posted by: HisMan at August 14, 2008 11:11 PM


Glad to see we are keeping at least one Obama expose live on the thread.

Posted by: truthseeker at August 14, 2008 11:32 PM


You are a real man. No real man can hurt a tiny child. How tall is Barack? 6 foot something? And this guy voted not to protect an innocent human being that hung on to life even though the intent was his murder by careless, cowardly adults. I know a few football players that would like to show that puke what it feels to get tackled by a real man. We need you on this site.

Posted by: HisMan at August 14, 2008 11:11 PM
.........................

Excuse for a man, you have strange issues. Your negative stature isn't an excuse for your limited mental abilities. Being tall won't fix your stupidity.

Posted by: Sally at August 15, 2008 12:16 AM


HisMan, you are misusing the expression "beg the question". It does not mean "ask the question" or "raise the question". It refers to a certain type of failure by an argument to answer a question. A reply which assumes a particular answer to the question begs the question.

Posted by: SoMG at August 15, 2008 12:40 AM


SoMG 12:40, HisMan's reply 11:11 still stands. Obama claims to be against abortion, so everyone needs to know that he voted against saving abortion survivors and then lied about the same.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 15, 2008 12:53 AM


I was Anonymous at 12:53.

Sally 12:16, you fail to understand Hisman's argument. Being tall might save a human fetus from its stupidity. Being small keeps it vulnerable. Stupidity isn't really the question. Neither is height, and Hisman is really saying that we are supposed to love our neighbours. The strong should protect the weak.

Posted by: Jon at August 15, 2008 12:59 AM


I still don't get what the born alive act has to do with abortion, abortion is terminating a pregnancy, killing a baby that is not in a womb should not be legal, it's not even abortion it's murder. And if abortion is just terminating a pregnancy it would just be through non-surgical methods like the abortion pill or other non-invasive procedures.

I believe that a woman should be able to terminate a pregnancy, take medications or use other methods to break down the lining of her uterus and expel it's contents, including the baby, at any stage of the pregnancy.

Now if you excuse me I'm going to join Amanda in the common-senseicle no man's land of being misunderstood and shunned by both pro-lifers and pro-choicers. Giddy up.

Posted by: Jess at August 15, 2008 1:35 AM


Jess 1:35, a woman should be able to "expel" her baby at any stage of the pregnancy?

Well, at least I know that you are not afraid to expel the illegal aliens in the U.S. Expulsion of an alien does not necessarily result in his death.

But do note that the only illegal aliens are expelled. Immigrants are welcome. Are there really so many American women being raped?

And some people wonder at my belief that a real woman is feminine and not feminist.

Posted by: Jon at August 15, 2008 1:47 AM


And here's more evidence from the FRC of the slimy pit were in, and this about our beloved, money hungry doctors, you know, like SoMG:
"We've all debated the question of when life begins, but how about death? That's the latest issue plaguing the medical community as the need for organ donors continues to grow. The latest edition of the New England Journal of Medicine reports on three controversial cases in which infants died, and physicians harvested the hearts before the babies met the criteria of "complete, irreversible cessation of brain function or of heart and lung function." The Denver doctors who performed the procedure, which some claim is "tantamount to murder," are at the center of a growing moral debate. George Annas, a Boston University bioethicist told the Washington Post, "This practice cannot be ethically justified . . . . I understand that they would like us to change the definition of death, but they can't do that by themselves." But in a society that allows politicians and unelected judges to change the definition of life, marriage and family, this is just another step down the slippery slope. Our culture continues to commodify people without asking the important question-which isn't can we do it, but should we?"

SoMG:

Just when does that innocent baby die at your blood soaked hands? You get a tingle or a sizzle down your spine at the very moment? An unexpected job perk, huh? Tell me SoMG, do they "harvest" the organs of the babies you kill and sell them on the transplant market? Now that would be a hoot wouldn't it? Kill a perfectly fine baby, to save a sick one and make a few bucks in the process. Heck, you could do the abortion for free and still make 10Gs on it. 5 a day, 25 a week, 10 mil plus a year....now there's some real blood money for that antique car collection you're thinking of buying.

Oh, and....there's an issue a Liberal can sink their fangs into and get their slimy hands around and twist for their benefit, literally. The mother makes a noble "choice" to terminate a pregnancy that results in saving another wanted baby. I can see it now, a new slogan, "pro-choice-organ-harvester-benfactors". Heck, for Al Gore the blood footprint would be zero and doctors could sell their blood "credits". "Kill one, no problem, save another". Now there's some sanguine change we can beleive in.

Posted by: HisMan at August 15, 2008 2:51 AM


What are you taking about Jon? I'm talking about pregnancy... I don't know how many illegal aliens are living in your body, but if I were you I'd see a doctor.

I don't think you know what a feminist is. A feminist is a person who believes a female should have equal rights to a male. Such as, the right to vote.

I don't know what your definition of feminine is, but I believe I am very feminine because I am a very sensitive, empathetic and caring person. I love a lot and am not shy about telling people how much I love them, or sharing my feelings in general. If I see a sick or sad person or animal I instinctively try to help them. I love wearing skirts and dresses, the color pink, children, the elderly and animals. One of the biggest things I want to do in life is find a husband I can take care of and raise a family with.

Yes, that's right, find a husband and have a family I can care for. If I like a guy I'll bake him cookies or fold his laundry. How much more girly can I get?

Posted by: Jess at August 15, 2008 3:12 AM


I appreciate you answering my post Jon. I hope you stick around. *Interweb hug*

Posted by: Jess at August 15, 2008 3:15 AM


HisMan, Obama is many things including extremely pro-choice but he is not a lunatic. He's one of the saner, more low-key, less megalomaniac people in politics, especially among Senators. His first response is to urge caution especially about making commitments to defend inevitable-losers. Call me a p*ssy if you like but that's a good, realistic foreign policy instinct and it's exactly what I want in someone who's gonna control the nuclear arsenal. Someone whose outstanding characteristic is reasonableness. A non-hothead. Sure WWII might have been prevented by preemptive responses to early events but WW ONE could have been prevented if everyone had been more cautious about making commitments to defend each other. And preventing WWI would have also prevented WWII.

Whether McCain is a lunatic is an entirely different question. His response to every situation really does seem to be to look for a way to pick a fight or to cause one to escalate. I've been watching him since 1980 and that's his life-pattern. It's not just trying to make himself and his friends look tough--he picks fights with his friends and allies. And it's not just the natural hatred motivated people feel for those who get in the way or the equally natural hatred proud people feel for those who try to tell them what to do. He has not finished saying f*ck you to the people who tortured him and kept him in solitary confinement. Since he is able to earn his living you can't say he's clinically insane but it definitely does affect his job performance. Among other things it makes him an uncertain ally (even for RTLs, with whom he agrees and has always agreed on almost all questions) and a dangerous employer.

Posted by: SoMG at August 15, 2008 3:23 AM


Jess 3:12, a feminist has come to be a human adult of the female sex who professes very little or no shame at killing the entrusted human fetus of either sex. When you talk of "expelling" your baby at any stage of the pregnancy, then you have become a radical feminist.

If there is any such thing as criminal "hate language," then "My body, my choice" is that thing. The victim has absolutely no ability to respond.

And, no, I cannot believe that such radical assertion of independence--and cruel aggression--and cynical falsehood--and similar hypocritical justification of voting rights (contrary to natural hierarchy and the original ideal of a republic)--can allow any adherent to be authentically feminine. Femininity and feminism are opposites.

I respected the Iron Lady, but I have very little respect for a woman who might deliberately kill one of her children.

Feminists are like homosexual activists. I can sympathize with young people confused about their sexuality, but I have absolutely no use for the unrepentant wolves who destroy them.

Posted by: Jon at August 15, 2008 4:19 AM


Sally:

I am going to deluge this site with anti-Obama facts. Facts that result from his inane, inept and incompetent and extreme leftist mentality. You asked for it and I am going to give it to you. For starters here's an amazing vignette of wisdom prepared for the mindless likes of you by wonder-boy; as quoted from LM:

"The rhetorical flourishes of an Obama speech may be Reaganesque, but the message is all Karl Marx.

In his August 4, 2008 energy speech in Michigan, Sen. Obama attacks a major corporation by name -- Exxon-Mobil -- and shames them for having the audacity to ... are you ready for this? ... make a profit!

'This is a corporation that just recorded the largest profit in the history of the United States. . This is the company that, last quarter, made $1,500 every second. That's more than $300,000 in the time it takes you to fill up a tank with gas that's costing you more than $4-a-gallon.'

Does Obama even realize he is attacking a private company that employs thousands of Americans? Or that it only controls 3 percent of the oil industry, which despite its size makes it incapable of controlling the market price for oil or the price of gasoline at the pump? Does he understand the free market system at all?

Would Obama prefer Exxon go out of business, costing thousands of American jobs and untold millions in tax collections, further reducing the supply of oil and raising gas prices even more?

Winston Churchill famously said:

Some see private enterprise as a predatory target to be shot, others as a cow to be milked, but few are those who see it as a sturdy horse pulling the wagon.

Private enterprise is a remarkably resilient, steady and sturdy horse pulling the wagon of American prosperity. Obama seems to view profitable companies as the enemy."

I guess it would OK with you if we became a country of Spanish and French speaking imbeciles who could now be unembarrassed when we went on our virtual tours of Europe (because all greedy fuel guzzling airlines have now been destroyed), realized that babies were punishments, gay brides and grooms lived happily never after, women married dogs, men married monkeys, but not each other, where churches were forced to marry gays, where discarded human embryos and fetilized eggs would be a mandatory ingredient in Obama Smoothies, where a mosque is built in Camp David so that Aminajad has a place to worship during unconditional appeasement and surrender talks with Israel, where being an angry black woman becomes a fashion statement, where it will be said that Jews practice a gutter religion on all government buildings as a tribute to Louis Farrakan and in place of the Ten Commandments, where blowing up Federal Buildings is decriminalized as a payoff to Mr. Ayers, where all believe that this is a God-damned country saluting Pastor Wright who will be honored at the Capitol Rotunda for his lasting contributions to well...., that we live in a country we should not be proud of, where a new class or caste of abortion targeted survivor babies become the unprotected dregs of society...the lepers, the untouchables, where greedy US Corporations cease to exist and we all become wards of HHS, where the ACLU becomes a new government agency headed up by Oprah Winfrey, where Dr. Tolle becomes the new director of White House false faith based initiatives, where qualifications for his cabinet become: be rich, be cute, be an adulterer, be a wife/husband abandoner, be an ambulance chaser, and of course, new energy technologies will be updated by replacing air in tires with concrete, lightweight concrete, so that they never deflate and cars will only travel downhill only to be pushed back up hill by the hoards of illegal immigrants that will be allowed into the country resulting in full employment and a smaller carbon footprint! To top that off, every family will be given hand cranked refrigerators to reduce the effects of global warming and provide people with the much needed exercise required to qualify for the shut-up-and-get-in-line-abortions-go-first "free" government run health care clinics. Not only that, but Obama will cave to Hillary's demands that there at least be a life sized blow up doll of herself in the Oval Office that says, "down boy" every time he speaks. And in keeping with Bill Clinton's legacy of teaching our young that oral copulation was is, or is is, isn't sex, Obama will expound during every cartoon Saturday morning the Harvard sponsored skill set of creative fact obfuscation and language bastardization. Oh and let me add this. We will all be relieved of responsibilities for our actions as the mistakes we make should never be viewed as punishments. In fact, all criminals will be released and becomes foreign relations consultants and ambassadors.

Finally, David Copperfield will be hired to make the Constitution disappear.

Sounds Looney? Just go to BO's web site.

Posted by: HisMan at August 15, 2008 5:03 AM


"His first response is to urge caution especially about making commitments to defend inevitable-losers. Call me a p*ssy if you like but that's a good, realistic foreign policy instinct and it's exactly what I want in someone who's gonna control the nuclear arsenal."

Wow, not me SoMG. "inevitable-losers" ?

That's not the attitude one takes when standing up for freedom and democracy. ..and please don't compare Sadaam Hussians Iraq to Georgia.

Don't be fooled by the former KGB man Putin.

Posted by: Jasper at August 15, 2008 5:09 AM


HisMan, no, you cannot harvest organs from first-trimester abortions. If you could I'd say the abortus should belong to the patient for her to dispose of as she wishes subject to human bio-waste disposal regulations and the laws against selling transplantable organs.

Jasper, the Georgians are certain to lose any military conflict with Russia. The outcome is as certain as the outcome would be of a war between the USA and Mexico. To refuse to recognise this because we like Georgia is like refusing to acknowledge a friend's terminal illness. It doesn't help and can lead to serious errors in judgement.

Posted by: SoMG at August 15, 2008 6:23 AM


In this case it's a friend's terminal smallness.

Posted by: SoMG at August 15, 2008 6:25 AM


HisMan 5:03am

No need to be concerned about Exxon or oil. Don't you know Americans need only to properly inflate their tires? After decades of driving around on flat tires, we can only feel blessed by such wisdom and insight. Also, for those of us with cars 20+ years old, regular tune ups will also aid in oil conservation and energy independence.
What brilliance.

Posted by: Mary at August 15, 2008 6:44 AM


SOMG 3:23am

Obama less of a megalomaniac?

"My job this morning is to be so persausive...that a light will shine through that window, a beam of light will come down upon you, you will experience an epiphany, and you will suddenly realize that you must go to the polls and vote for Barack" Barack Obama, quoted in the Village Voice.

I wonder if this was before or after his daily stroll on the Atlantic ocean.

Posted by: Mary at August 15, 2008 6:55 AM


Mary, it sounds like Obama was making a joke. I could easily see him saying that with a twinkle in his eye.

Posted by: SoMG at August 15, 2008 7:04 AM


Just saw President Bush mispronounce the name of the Capital of Georgia on c-span. It's not Tiblisi, it's Tbilisi. Starts with two consonants in a row, you dumb piece of govno.

Now he's trying to sound tough.

Posted by: SoMG at August 15, 2008 7:17 AM


Ooooooooh, he called Russia a "bully".

Posted by: SoMG at August 15, 2008 7:19 AM


"Piece of govno" is that too offensive? If yes, feel free to replace it with the phrase "coke-head burnout".

Posted by: SoMG at August 15, 2008 7:28 AM


SOMG 7:04am

Don't bet on it. In a speech he gave on becoming the presumptive nominee, he talked of the day(when he became the presumptive nominee)
"...we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment we began to provide care for the sick and good jobs to the jobless, this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and the planet began to heal...".

We never cared for the sick? Jobless people have never found jobs? Why even the oceans begin receding at the sound of his voice!

Posted by: Mary at August 15, 2008 7:41 AM


SOMG,

Do you know if anyone ever told Obama a breathalyzer is not used to treat asthma patients? Neither for matter are "inhalators".

Posted by: Mary at August 15, 2008 7:45 AM



I meant to say neither for that matter are "inhalators".

Posted by: Mary at August 15, 2008 7:47 AM


Mary, that just means he's willing to regurgitate standard Democrat flowery filler/mush in a speech for the public. "Make it optimistic but don't miss the chance to mention specific issues!" I agree it's embarrassing but it doesn't say anything about whether or not he's a megalomaniac.

Megalomania would certainly be inconsistant with his reputation among his colleagues. Does anyone who knows him deny that he always makes a good-faith effort to understand the other fellow's point of view? It gets him in trouble, as in bitter-rural-Pennsylvanian-gun-owners-gate.

Posted by: SoMG at August 15, 2008 8:10 AM


SOMG 8:10am

Sure, whatever.

Was his speech in San Francisco about "bitter" small town Americans clinging to their guns and religion, not liking people who look different, etc. an example of making a good faith effort to understand the other fellow's point of view?
It sounded more to me like elitist bigotry.

Posted by: Mary at August 15, 2008 8:19 AM


It's a human being but what you think is a "child" is not what everybody thinks. To take it to an extreme, for clarity, is a blastocyst a "child"? Is the zygote a "child"? Obviously not, regardless of what you might say.

Posted by: Ernst at August 14, 2008 10:12 PM
____________________________________

Actually Ernst, I'm 48 years old and still a child of my mother. "Child" describes an offspring relationship and not exclusively the age of a person. (Although it's incredibly hard to be a child of someone who is younger than yourself!)

So for clarity - your statement has been refuted, and yes, a zygote is a child, just as a blastocyst is a child, so is an embryo, fetus, newborn, toddler as well as the other stages of development, including adult children of older parents.

Yes - we tend to use the term "child" when referring to a young human beings who are often self-ambulatory, self-feeding, make messes, are remarkably fun and playful to be with and have yet to be hit with a surge of sexual hormonal activity. We even metaphorically speak of the "child" within us as adults.

I'm sure you're not here to quibble about semantics. So what's really your issue - the developmental age or the relationship of the human being with regard to abortion?

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at August 15, 2008 8:21 AM


This is really funny: "Yawn. Who doesn't already know Obama is extremely pro-choice?
Posted by: SoMG at August 14, 2008 9:13 PM"

Since the point was that Obama not only voted against the same measure that passed unanimously in Congress but ALSO lied and CONTINUES TO LIE about it, then SoMG's point must be that to be "extremely pro-choice" is also to be a BLATANT LIAR. Right?

Posted by: Doyle at August 15, 2008 8:36 AM


Did anyone see gymnastics last night? AMAZING!

Posted by: prettyinpink at August 15, 2008 9:24 AM


PIP,

No, I didn't. I've missed all of the Olympics so far. I know gymnastics is pretty neat to watch. What were they doing? the floor mat? I like that the best we're get a running start and do all the flips, etc.

Posted by: Jasper at August 15, 2008 9:33 AM


I wish I had, PIP. Gymnastics are always awesome.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 15, 2008 9:36 AM


Oh, the former Soviet (who now lives in the US won): Nastia Liukin and beat her teammate Shawn Johnson. I guess 2 are the best in the world......

Posted by: Jasper at August 15, 2008 9:38 AM


I know it's difficult, Hisman, to show restraint towards those that differ significantly with us on the issue.

Show some restraint.

Posted by: carder at August 15, 2008 10:00 AM


Nastia and Shawn just totally "brung it" even though the balance beam scores were unneccessarily favoring the Chinese.
Jasper, there are 4 events: vault, uneven bars, beam, and floor in the all-around competition. I am partial to floor (that was my best event when I did gymnastics and it has a lot of dance elements). Nastia stuck her landings in 3 of the 4 events, and her beam was totally graceful and awesome. They finished up on the floor. Nastia nailed pretty much everything even though she keep stepping out of bounds in practice. Then Shawn was given a CHALLENGE, like she had to get over a 15 to move up, and going last, and totally nailed everything, bringing her up from 3rd to 2nd. It was crazy awesome. 2 friends: silver and gold. I honestly started tearing up. So emotional.

Posted by: prettyinpink at August 15, 2008 10:06 AM


I was so angry because I was working during the team competition, the tape didn't work during encore, and my computer can't view the videos on the website (WTF, I have to have an Intel processor, so what people with apple computers more than a year old can't watch??)!! But the all-around was soooo intense. I was sitting right in front of the TV. It was being broadcasted live too so even the commentators were all hyped up.

Posted by: prettyinpink at August 15, 2008 10:08 AM


Carder:

"Show some restraint".

You have no idea how I really feel about baby killers. However, I think we all know how God feels about them.

Posted by: HisMan at August 15, 2008 10:54 AM


On that point, I agree.

Posted by: carder at August 15, 2008 10:57 AM


PIP,

Yes, going last is always the toughest. Thats neat that you did gynastics.I'm too stiff, could never really do flips, etc.

bummer about the processor on the MAC's. Hopefully your motherboard is compatible with Intel processors, so you can just get the chip itself and not the whole motherboard.

Posted by: Jasper at August 15, 2008 11:12 AM


Jon You're basically saying you don't like feminist because some pro-choicers call themselves feminist. I'll call myself pro-life, does that mean you won't be part of the pro-life movement anymore? And Feminists for Life wouldn't disagree with you that feminist support abortion.

Also how am I a wolf preying on children? I never tried to "recruit" anyone. I'm not the person who goes outside of elementary schools with huge pictures of dead babies to try and scare kids into joining me.

Posted by: Jess at August 15, 2008 11:20 AM


"You have no idea how I really feel about baby killers."

I feel like if you were ever given the opportunity you would horribly murder me HisMan. Am I close?

Posted by: Jess at August 15, 2008 11:24 AM


So, turns out McCain is more anti-gay than anti-abortion. The pro-life/pro-choice thing is "just a disagreement." What a piece of work:

"I think that the pro-life position is one of the important aspects or fundamentals of the Republican Party. And I also feel that -- and I'm not trying to equivocate here -- that Americans want us to work together. You know, [former Pennsylvania Governor] Tom Ridge is one of the great leaders and he happens to be pro-choice. And I don't think that that would necessarily rule Tom Ridge out ... I think it's a fundamental tenet of our party to be pro-life but that does not mean we exclude people from our party that are pro-choice. We just have a -- albeit strong -- but just it's a disagreement. And I think Ridge is a great example of that. Far more so than [New York City Mayor Michael] Bloomberg, because Bloomberg is pro-gay rights, pro, you know, a number of other issues."

Posted by: Hal at August 15, 2008 11:28 AM


Jasper,
Yup when I was young I loved to tumble and did compete for a couple of years. However as things got tougher and I got older, my sense of fear showed up and my shortcomings in flexibility started working against me :) That's when I transitioned to ballet.

I was just frustrated b/c you'd think something so universal like the olympics would want to make the website makers put videos in regular format like almost the rest of the world. And since they copyright everything I can't find video anywhere else :(

Posted by: prettyinpink at August 15, 2008 12:32 PM


PIP,

As a child I too was swinging upsidedown and climbing. My mother had to come to my rescue a few times. I taught myself flips on trampolines, and loved to jump off high ladders and swings in midflight. I could do a great backbend.
There was a utility pole in my cousin's backyard and we loved to used the metal wrungs to climb up it. Thankfully we had sense enough not to climb up too far or I'm sure we would have blasted ourselves into the next dimension.

Posted by: Mary at August 15, 2008 12:59 PM


The Obama kool-aid drinkers need to understand this matter goes to the heart of the character issue. It has gone beyond whether Obama supports or does not support abortion. Now we can add to that brazen dishonesty. Even when faced with incontrovertible evidence that he did indeed support infanticide, Obama nevertheless obfuscates the issue with misrepresentations. More and more and with each passing day the public is learning about the real Obama.

Posted by: Jerry at August 15, 2008 1:04 PM


Yeah Mary trampolines! We got one for Christmas and I practiced a lot of twists and flips on it. But I did occasionally fall off and get the wind knocked out of me :P I also bruised my tailbone once doing pull ups on our towel hanger XP

Posted by: prettyinpink at August 15, 2008 1:06 PM


Sally:

I am going to deluge this site with anti-Obama facts. Facts that result from his inane, inept and incompetent and extreme leftist mentality. You asked for it and I am going to give it to you. For starters here's an amazing vignette of wisdom prepared for the mindless likes of you by wonder-boy; as quoted from LM:

.........................................

If it keeps you off the streets, knock yourself out.

Posted by: Sally at August 15, 2008 1:16 PM


PIP,

You probably don't remember but in the old days garage doors opened up and out, they were not flexible. Naturally I thought it would be great fun to ride the door as it went up, my cousins going along with it. Trouble was they couldn't coax me off or pull the door back down. So I'm stuck on this stupid door, which to me at that age looked to be at least 100 feet above the ground. Again my mother, none too pleased, came to my rescue.
Also the metal frame over our front porch that was used for our canvas awning made a great set of monkey bars, as did the clothespoles in the back yard. If it could be climbed on or swung from, it was!

Posted by: Mary at August 15, 2008 1:16 PM


What I don't like, Jess 11:20, is a woman who looks like a woman, in some ways acts like a woman, but expresses no shame about "expelling" her baby at any stage of her pregnancy if she should think such action to be necessary or desirable. And that's what Jess 1:35 AM said.

I know women can be irrational and changeable, but I could wonder whether Jess is actually schizofrenic. More likely she wants to be a pain-in-the-neck.

Posted by: Jon at August 15, 2008 1:26 PM


Mary,
What a fun kid you were!!

Posted by: Carla at August 15, 2008 1:28 PM


Carla,

LOL. I don't know if my mother would agree.
She told me that when I was 7 months old she left me alone on the living room floor to go into the kitchen. When she returned she couldn't find me and couldn't imagine where I had gone. She went to the bottom of the stairs, which was right off the living room and called my name. I turned my head around the corner at the top of the stairs and said "uh"?
I had climbed up 13 stairs which my mother never realized I could do, and was exploring the upstairs of the house. It must have been an indication of what was to come. She was just thankful I didn't tumble down the stairs and break my neck!

Posted by: Mary at August 15, 2008 1:43 PM


PIP: Yeah Mary trampolines! We got one for Christmas and I practiced a lot of twists and flips on it. But I did occasionally fall off and get the wind knocked out of me :P I also bruised my tailbone once doing pull ups on our towel hanger XP

Trampolines rock, but a bruised tailbone hurts like Hades.

My big thing was standing up on a toboggan. Then doing it standing backwards. This was in the pre-snowboard days (to say the least).

My brother Dean was swinging back and forth on one of those expandable bars you put across a doorway - it presses against both sides, supporting itself - when the dang thing came loose and he shot clear across the room, landing in a heap.

My other brother Scott and I were pretty much hysterical with laughter until Dean realized his leg was broken and started crying and yelling in earnest. Then we went to get our parents.

Posted by: Doug at August 15, 2008 2:28 PM


Doug,

Remember riding our bikes with "no hands"?

Playing on the expressway pedestrian overpasses was great fun before they put up those protective wire fences. It was fun to sit on and hang over the rails and drop gravel pellets on cars. I loved watching the traffic helicopter come in, which kept tabs on expressway traffic. I remember taking a pan full of my grandmother's mashed sweet potatoes to indulge on while watching the helicopter.

Posted by: Mary at August 15, 2008 2:40 PM


So many poeple are behind you Jill.
Stand strong and keep getting this information out to the public.

From more people than you will ever know.

Posted by: Colleen at August 15, 2008 3:27 PM


I loved watching the traffic helicopter come in, which kept tabs on expressway traffic.

Mary, um... did they even have helicopters back then? ; )
.....


Remember riding our bikes with "no hands"?

Oh hellz yes - before I had a bike I had a tricycle that I rode on two wheels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuK2A1ZqoWs
.....


Playing on the expressway pedestrian overpasses was great fun before they put up those protective wire fences.

When my brothers and I were kids, we lived in Youngstown, OH, and Interstate 680 was being constructed. Snow-white, fresh, virgin concrete, and there we were on our bikes, flying downhill toward the river. 40 MPH but it felt like 90. Sweet.
.....


I remember taking a pan full of my grandmother's mashed sweet potatoes to indulge on while watching the helicopter.

Ha! Mary, that's awesome...

Posted by: Doug at August 15, 2008 9:21 PM



LOL That's me in front.

Posted by: prettyinpink at August 15, 2008 10:22 PM


Doug 9:21PM

LOL. Yeah wise guy there were helicopters back then!

But come on Doug, I'm sure you remember that nothing could beat a good chariot race!

Posted by: Mary at August 15, 2008 10:44 PM



Posted by: prettyinpink at August 15, 2008 10:47 PM


"More likely she wants to be a pain-in-the-neck."

I "want to be" a pain in the neck? I am a pain in the neck! It's ok though, I'm told I give great neck and back messages. =D

Posted by: Jess at August 15, 2008 10:58 PM


Jess 10:58, I certainly hope that your massages are better than your messages.

Posted by: Jon at August 16, 2008 12:05 AM


PIP I did some gymnastics as well, but when my ballet career picked up I had to quit, because I was developing the wrong muscles. I loved the floor and the beam.

I missed ALL of the Olympics so far this year because I've been road-tripping to various places. So I've been catching what I can online, which easily segues into watching old videos as well...I sent these to my mom the other day and figured you might enjoy a little morning pick me up -- blast from the past:

One of my favorite bars routines even though it was a decade before I was born:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOOmFgBAdIA

One of my favorite floor routines, a really good blend of artistry and athleticism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dSr34SjUJM&feature=related

I think it's awesome that gymnastics has become what it is, but I also miss that little artistic something that it's been losing along the way. That's probably the ballet dancer in me talking, though, lol.

Posted by: Alexandra at August 16, 2008 8:03 AM


Mary, and PIP - it really threw me a curve ball for a second - I make a joke about Mary's childhood, questioning if helicopters were around, and then this gymnastics class picture appears.

66.. Phillips 66 - my brain thinks, "1966," and geez I must have misjudged Mary's age. Then I see 1998-1999 and I'm really wondering..

Then I see that it was posted by PIP and "Doh!"
.....


Mary: But come on Doug, I'm sure you remember that nothing could beat a good chariot race!

I remember the chariots with triangular wheels. They didn't work worth a dang. The square ones were an improvement, but they still jolted you around a good bit.

Mary, love the story about you crawling up the stairs and surprising your mom. You must have always had a lively mind.

Posted by: Doug at August 16, 2008 10:47 AM


Alexandra @ 8:03,
Thanks for the gymnastics links which I remember watching as a young teen! What fun memories!

Posted by: Janet at August 16, 2008 12:19 PM


"Then I see that it was posted by PIP and "Doh!""
LOL Doug. Yeah Phillips 66 headquartered in my town and poured lots of money into the community. You can see the company sign near the top of the photo.

Ever seen some of nadias stuff?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I78f_04mQ5A&feature=related

Posted by: prettyinpink at August 16, 2008 1:59 PM


PiP,
That was great! This floor routine of Nadia's from 1976 Montreal is great too! So sweet!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B6IOpduitQ&feature=related

Posted by: Janet at August 16, 2008 2:44 PM


Doug 190:47am

Of course PIP and I have no trouble understanding that you can be easily confused at your age. :)

Square chariot wheels? You were definitely an earlier era. By my time the wheel had been invented. Made for a much smoother ride, not to mention those great Roman roads.

I'm glad you enjoyed my story and thank you. It was definitely one of my mother's favorites. A lively mind? That, or I was a mountain goat in a previous life. Never did tell her though about the fun I had on the guardrails of the expressway overpass.

Posted by: Mary at August 16, 2008 4:44 PM


Ever seen some of Nadias stuff?

PIP, oh yeah - I saw it at the time on TV. I was 17 and had a hell of a crush on her. The scoreboard wasn't set up to read out "10.00" so what appeared was "1.00" and the crowd went nuts for a moment, like "you gotta be kidding me!"

Then they realized what the deal was, and then they really went nuts.

:: choked up ::


Posted by: Doug at August 16, 2008 5:14 PM


Of course PIP and I have no trouble understanding that you can be easily confused at your age. :)

HooAah! Love it, Mary.

Posted by: Doug at August 16, 2008 5:16 PM


I knew when Obama won the Senate seat here in Illinois that he was aiming for the White House. He certainly didn't do anything for Illinois for the short time he was here. For once, I would love to hear, from Obama's own lips, his stand on abortion and the Right to Live Act. As a nurse, I know that all life begins at conception...plain and simple. I also know that I would never stand around and watch a doctor throw a live baby in a waste bin!! I took a vow to assist in preserving life not assisting to end it. As far as McCain's view on either issue, he has been clear as a bell.

Posted by: zoeyrn5 at August 19, 2008 11:53 AM