I could think of many things to say, but out of respect for the Sanz family, I'll decline to comment.

What if this mom had been hit while on her way to an abortion?

Great question.

That's so sad, I hope the baby makes it.

But what I can't figure out is WHY that question at the end of the thread is even relevant to this story?

Thanks to your efforts Jill and the passage of the BAIA, if the mother was on her way to an abortion when this happened and somebody performed a C-section then the pro-aborts would at least have to comfort the baby while they terminated him/her.

Well, I guess if a pregnant woman in Chicago was killed on her way to have an abortion, they would just bury the baby inside the woman. Or at least, that's how Obama would want it done.

Elizabeth, I agree. What a disrespectful question. What if the family is reading this?

Plus, how many 7 month pregnant women have abortions? The vast majority are in the first trimester.

A huge tragedy.

With all due respect, there are some jobs that a pregnant woman should never do, simply because they are too dangerous.

The question posed is an important one as it highlights the hypocrisy and contradictions of pro-choice logic.

In defense of Jill, this is a pro-life blog. And pro-life blogs provide an oppurtunity to examine common stories within a pro-life perspective. Jill's question would be inappropriate in a newspaper or an local news television broadcast. But blogs are meant to invoke discussion, no matter how light or heavy the story its author chooses.

Speaking for myself, I work in pro-life circles and to be immersed in the movement kind of forces you into examining the pro-life angle on every facet of life. It forces you to ask questions regarding everyday tragedies that more often have nothing to do with the events surrounding the story.

A professional bricklayer sees buildings differently than everyone else. A professional chef can't help examining every plate of food put in front of him. A painter can't help asking why the lobby of a hotel he's visiting has such crappy artwork hanging on the walls.

Right now I'm sitting in a Panera Bread restaurant and I can't help wondering if the girl I see dressed immodestly in way-short shorts and tight tank-top is a birth control user.

The things we do professionally from day to day affect the way we think about everyday things.

TS...you nailed it precisely.

Bloomberg has a lot of nerve talking about the baby as a human being given all of his efforts to kill human beings in the womb.

Cranky, very, very well said.

Those who are praying for the baby to survive and be able to go home in the future, according to the article his name is Sean. For baby Sean and his family.

BTW, Hal, ever hear of George Tiller? He aborts babies that are in the 7th month of pregnancy.

I've heard of Geroge Tiller. He's one guy. From what I understand, he's considered a monster because unlike most abortion providers, he performs late term abortions. Not too many 7th month abortions out there, from what I understand. Yes, I know it happens. But I don't see why Jill took this tragic story of a mother being killed and introduced abortion into the story-line.

As Cranky points out, Jill's obsession with abortion "forces you to ask questions regarding everyday tragedies that more often have nothing to do with the events surrounding the story."

It's amazing how a "fetus" turns into an "unborn baby" in the Media when the baby is wanted.

click on the Daily news link.

Cranky, the very fact that you feel the need to make excuses for Jill speaks volumes.

I can't decide which is creepier, Jill using this family's tragedy, and invading their privacy to make some utterly irrelevant point, or Cranky ogling some young girl and speculating on her sex life.

How about a relevant topic, like Mc Cain's possible choice of a pro-choice running mate, which the MSM is treating as a very significant story?

"What if this mom had been hit while on her way to an abortion?"

Well, in this case, I would hope they would let the baby die since thats what the mothers wishes/choice was.

"What if this mom had been hit while on her way to an abortion?"
And what if the Mom became a child molester? What if she was going to abuse her child?

What kind of question is that? None of those questions change what happened. The ironic thing is this post will probably be deleted because it could offend the family.

TS, I don't think the job is necessarily to blame, this situation seems like it is very rare. Driving and crossing a street can be dangerous too.

My heart goes out to the family, I wish them the best in spite of the circumstances.

"Mayor Michael Bloomberg offered his condolences to Sanz' husband. Bloomberg said he hopes as the child grows up, he will come to understand his mother gave her life serving the city."

How can a proabort honestly think of these words to say much less speak them? Why does Bloomberg hope anything for this child and not the billion children that have been aborted worldwide directly because of Liberal policy? Why does he not follow the Liberal mantra of "no discrimination"? No discrimination based on race, age, color, creed, gender, national origin, and sexual orientation. Have we covered all the bases? How about we add, "one's inability to speak for oneself"?

Yes Jill, the story is extremely relevant to the pro-life story.

And Hal, one cannot be pro-life and pro-death at the same time. The value of this precious baby did not magically become worth more than any other baby; for all are equally precious. You either care and are concerned about all life or you are not. To be a respecter of babies is the ultimate act of hypocrisy.

So do me a favor if you choose to continue to ba a pro-abort. Please be consistent and never show any love, sympathy, or care for any pre-born baby. It makes you look foolish.

And SoMG: Let's say that you happened on the accident and was the only person around that could save the baby. Let's say you found the mom's ID and a note in her coat pocket with these words on it, "Planned Parenthood, 666 Death St, Bronx, NY, 8/16/08, 11:00 am, abortion". What would you do, call the clinic and ask if the mom was actually scheduled for an abortion and if confirmed, refuse treatment? And as you pressed the End Call button on your IPhone, Mr. Sanz drives up, realizes you're a "medical professional" and pleads, "this is my wife, she was going to abort the baby tomorrow against my wishes, could you please save it". C'mon SoMG, c'mon Liberals, what do you tell the dad and this mom's relatives right now? Here's your chance to really make a statement on your firm belief in abortion. Show the world how relevant Barack Obama's position on the Born Alive Infant Protection Act is.

Answer the questions pro-deather, don't leave them "begging" or I and all the other pro-lifers on this site will have a semantic field day on you.

Jill, if you can get this message to the world, you will single-handedley defeat Barack Obama. Keep pressing, press on, fight the good fight, do not give up. Write a book.

Right now I'm sitting in a Panera Bread restaurant and I can't help wondering if the girl I see dressed immodestly in way-short shorts and tight tank-top is a birth control user.

The things we do professionally from day to day affect the way we think about everyday things.

Posted by: Cranky Catholic at August 15, 2008 10:59 AM
.............................

So you are a professional pervert? Aqualung? What is Jill's profession? Exploitation? You know, to use selfishly and unethically?
You are both disgusting.

"Right now I'm sitting in a Panera Bread restaurant and I can't help wondering if the girl I see dressed immodestly in way-short shorts and tight tank-top is a birth control user."

How hot is it there Cranky Catholic? Sometimes it's so hot and humid here I would walk around in panties if I could. I hate the heat, I love cold weather, or cool and crisp fall weather. Maybe if you don't like short shorts you could move to Norway? I'll come with you. Isn't Norway the land of a thousand lakes? Or is that Finland? We can take up skiing.

A huge tragedy.

With all due respect, there are some jobs that a pregnant woman should never do, simply because they are too dangerous.

The question posed is an important one as it highlights the hypocrisy and contradictions of pro-choice logic.

Posted by: TS at August 15, 2008 10:43 AM

TS,
Well said about the hypocrisy and illogical nature of the pro-choice position that only "wanted" babies deserve respect.
FYI, I use the moniker truthseeker and sometimes people refer to me as TS too :)
What does your moniker "TS" stand for?

Cranky,

The fact that you looked at a women in a resturant makes you a pervert you know. Sally says so. I also get a kick out of Sally thinking something is disgusting, after all the aborted children and stories see has seen/read about so far on this website, she's never shown quite the outrage.

Asking a question about what would happen if this women wanted an abortion does not in any way, show disrepect for the woman who died. So, I hope the pro-deathers agree with me when I say-> I would hope they would let the baby die since thats what the mothers wishes/choice was.

Praying for Sean and his family.

Sally, stretch your arm out, now point your index finger at the imaginary Cranky Catholic in front of you while saying this word, "pervert".

Now, how many fingers are pointing away from you? That's right, spell it, o-n-e. Now, see those other fingers pointing back at you, can you count those? Stamp your foot as you count, 1-2-3, but don't whinny. That's t-h-r-e-e. Now, is 3 more than 1? What do you think that means? Correct, you are actually the pervert.

Good, tomorrow we'll work on values, family and moral values, not numerical values.

TS and TS, some women have abortions because having a baby would mean they wouldn't be able to work and therefore they wouldn't be able to support their families. Women's bodies are designed to hold a baby, I remember either two or three olympics ago one of the female (obviously) marathon runners wasn't running as strong as she usually did, it turns out she was three months pregnant. Later that year she gave birth to a very healthy baby. If a woman can run a marathon pregnant, what can't they do?

FYI, there's no reason a woman who ran before she was pregnant shouldn't run after she gets pregnant. It's actually really good to keep it up and your baby will be born healthier and with less body fat.

"Cranky, the very fact that you feel the need to make excuses for Jill speaks volumes."

I'll try to reduce the volumes to 3 simple sentences for you.

1. Jill blogs everyday on a controversial topic.
2. She allows a comments section where dissidents are free to attack everything she says, and they do.
3. Other people visit this site that agree with Jill and wish to help her justify her positions in the midst of such attacks.

Are you thinking of Minnesota?
"Land of 10,000 lakes"

It is possible for people to dress inappropriately, Sally, even in summer.

"Right now I'm sitting in a Panera Bread restaurant and I can't help wondering if the girl I see dressed immodestly in way-short shorts and tight tank-top is a birth control user."

How hot is it there Cranky Catholic? Sometimes it's so hot and humid here I would walk around in panties if I could. I hate the heat, I love cold weather, or cool and crisp fall weather. Maybe if you don't like short shorts you could move to Norway? I'll come with you. Isn't Norway the land of a thousand lakes? Or is that Finland? We can take up skiing.

Posted by: Jess at August 15, 2008 11:46 AM
.................................

Finland. And Cranky could spend all day drooling over the naked bodies at the local sauna.

"So do me a favor if you choose to continue to ba a pro-abort. Please be consistent and never show any love, sympathy, or care for any pre-born baby. It makes you look foolish."

I don't think I'm the one looking foolish here....

Not that I'm saying we should be pressuring our babies to lose weight.

HisMan you aren't supposed to point your finger anymore. My friend hostesses at a popular chain restaurant and during training they said when you want to show someone something you take your hand and you do the "wheel of fortune" hand thing.

Pointing is politically incorrect now.

Asking a question about what would happen if this women wanted an abortion does not in any way, show disrepect for the woman who died. So, I hope the pro-deathers agree with me when I say-> I would hope they would let the baby die since thats what the mothers wishes/choice was.

Posted by: Jasper at August 15, 2008 11:54 AM
......................................

The question is idiotic, irrelevant to the woman's death and blatant exploitation of her death. No two ways about it.

Watch this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3369102968312745410

Barack Obama thinks we should negotiate with these animals.

And he supports infanticide.

Go ahead, vote for him, and the shedding of innocent blood be on your head.

Don't worry HisMan, once the world sees your secret video, Obama won't have a chance.

"Cranky, the very fact that you feel the need to make excuses for Jill speaks volumes."

I'll try to reduce the volumes to 3 simple sentences for you.

1. Jill blogs everyday on a controversial topic.
2. She allows a comments section where dissidents are free to attack everything she says, and they do.
3. Other people visit this site that agree with Jill and wish to help her justify her positions in the midst of such attacks.

Are you thinking of Minnesota?
"Land of 10,000 lakes"

It is possible for people to dress inappropriately, Sally, even in summer.

Posted by: Alex at August 15, 2008 11:59 AM
.........................................

Jill deletes posts that point out her lack of professionalism on a daily basis. Hourly basis some days.
Jill is completely obsessed with abortion to the point she will exploit anything and everything to suit her obsession.
She has a few supporters that will do the same.
Alex, who appointed you to the fashion police and exactly what does short shorts have to do with the price of tea in China?
There is no justification for any of this nonsense.

Sally, stretch your arm out, now point your index finger at the imaginary Cranky Catholic in front of you while saying this word, "pervert".

Now, how many fingers are pointing away from you? That's right, spell it, o-n-e. Now, see those other fingers pointing back at you, can you count those? Stamp your foot as you count, 1-2-3, but don't whinny. That's t-h-r-e-e. Now, is 3 more than 1? What do you think that means? Correct, you are actually the pervert.

Good, tomorrow we'll work on values, family and moral values, not numerical values.

Posted by: HisMan at August 15, 2008 11:57 AM
...........................................

You wouldn't know a 'value' if you tripped over it hypocrite. Where is your sermon on the sins of gossiping? Exploitation? Hmmm little mister holier than thou?

Hal:

If I look foolish for defending the rights of the unborn, I'll take that, I have big shoulders. Now, exactly who do you defend Hal? Let's see, woman that want to kill their children and organizations that make millions off meeting their need. Well, you should be knighted Hal.

And Sally,

If being against everything you beleive and stand for means I'm called "mister holier than thou", well, I'll take that too. Better than being told, "depart from me ye doers of iniquity into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels". Oh, by the way, you can put your arm down, the lesson is over.

"Right now I'm sitting in a Panera Bread restaurant and I can't help wondering if the girl I see dressed immodestly in way-short shorts and tight tank-top is a birth control user. "

Okay, thats just CREEPY and disgusting and disturbing all at the same time. Do you often just make snap judgements about people by staring at them?

PS: Looks like you guys aren't so persecuted after all. As it turns out, other people get arrested for ignoring police orders too. Even Tinkerbell.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/15/disney.protesters.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

"The protesters were arrested on a misdemeanor count of failure to obey a police officer and two traffic infractions"

Why are Hal, PPC, Sally, and Jess so cranky? And why are Cranky and other commenters who only comment once so reasonable? Perhaps continual commenting depresses mental activity, sort of like the influence of alcohol. Well, this will be my only comment here because in the place where I am, it's time to go to bed. Maybe I need sleep.

Jon I offered you an "interweb hug* but you didn't take it :_(

Jon, trying to have a logical debate with people who believe Obama supports infanticide would make anyone cranky. It's bizzaro world here sometimes. And taking the tragic story of a woman killed in NY and trying to make some pro-life point is rude and insensitive. Do you think the loved ones of Ms. Sanz want to read musing on whether she was on her way to get an abortion or not?

"Do you think the loved ones of Ms. Sanz want to read musing on whether she was on her way to get an abortion or not?"

Whats funny is, people were horrified, infuritated, and disgusted that people brought up the abortion debate in the post about "lesforlifes" granddaughter having cancer, and yet here are the same people, musing over a woman who's already died, whether or not she should have had that job, and her child his is in grave danger of dying as well. I guess it makes it ok as long as they assume the people involved won't read it. Charming.

Okay, thats just CREEPY and disgusting and disturbing all at the same time. Do you often just make snap judgements about people by staring at them?

The reason girls dress that way is to attract attention- and that's exactly what it does.

I didn't muse, Amanda.

Cranky,
I'll admit that just the thought of a healthy woman's breast of any shape or size makes me smile, but what do you do for a liviing that made you wonder wether or not she was on BC?

"Okay, thats just CREEPY and disgusting and disturbing all at the same time"

oh the horror Amanda! a man looked at a women.

Hi Bethany!

Luckily I'm an A cup and therefore, there's really nothing to see.

Hi carla! :)

mmmm no, some girls dress that way because its hot out. I wear a sports bra and shorts when I go jogging. DEFFFFFintley not for attention. But whatever, if someones' clothing justifies making assumptions about their sex lives, I guess theres nothing stopping you.

mmmm no, some girls dress that way because its hot out. I wear a sports bra and shorts when I go jogging. DEFFFFFintley not for attention. But whatever, if someones' clothing justifies making assumptions about their sex lives, I guess theres nothing stopping you.

Weren't you making assumptions about Cranky Catholic when you implied he was "disturbed", "disgusting", and "creepy"?

My earlier questions on the situational ethics presented by Jill's post have not yet been answered.

No surprise, when pro-aborts have the metaphorical truht staring right in front of them, they go into Sally's desrobed, "hiler-than-thou-mode".

What can't they simply answer the questions?

I'll repeat them here for the keybaord challenged:

"How can a proabort honestly think of these words to say much less speak them? Why does Bloomberg hope anything for this child and not the billion children that have been aborted worldwide directly because of Liberal policy? Why does he not follow the Liberal mantra of "no discrimination"? No discrimination based on race, age, color, creed, gender, national origin, and sexual orientation. Have we covered all the bases? How about we add, "one's inability to speak for oneself"?......

And SoMG: Let's say that you happened on the accident and was the only person around that could save the baby. Let's say you found the mom's ID and a note in her coat pocket with these words on it, "Planned Parenthood, 666 Death St, Bronx, NY, 8/16/08, 11:00 am, abortion". What would you do, call the clinic and ask if the mom was actually scheduled for an abortion and if confirmed, refuse treatment? And as you pressed the End Call button on your IPhone, Mr. Sanz drives up, realizes you're a "medical professional" and pleads, "this is my wife, she was going to abort the baby tomorrow against my wishes, could you please save it". C'mon SoMG, c'mon Liberals, what do you tell the dad and this mom's relatives right now? Here's your chance to really make a statement on your firm belief in abortion. Show the world how relevant Barack Obama's position on the Born Alive Infant Protection Act is."

Officially and for the record, if these questions go unanswered, I will assume that all pro-aborts are now pro-life and admit the error of their ways.

Hahaha there you go again Bethany with twisting my words.

I called him NONE of those things. If I had, my sentence would have said, "Cranky Catholic, you are ........." I said what he DID (ie - "that") was creepy, digsuting, and disturbing.

You'll remember hopefully, that it was you, who defended yourself from calling me an idiot by saying you didnt CALL me that but said my ACTIONS were. Works both ways.

When did I call you an idiot? When did I even say the word "idiot"?

Hey, you've got the right to your opinion.

Just seems like all your opinions are about how everyone annoys or disgusts you. Every day.

"Why does Bloomberg hope anything for this child and not the billion children that have been aborted worldwide directly because of Liberal policy?"

Because he does. Is it really that confusing?

It was in the post about coming up with euphemisms for abortions when they were done for medical reasons.

Okay, thats just CREEPY and disgusting and disturbing all at the same time. Do you often just make snap judgements about people by staring at them?

The reason girls dress that way is to attract attention- and that's exactly what it does.

Posted by: Bethany at August 15, 2008 1:08 PM
.............................................

Women have been wearing hot pants and short short since before you were born. There is absolutely nothing unusual about it. Cranky ogling and pondering women's sexuality is creepy. Having no shame in objectifying woman isn't something to be proud of whether he considers it a profession or not.

What would you do, call the clinic and ask if the mom was actually scheduled for an abortion and if confirmed, refuse treatment? And as you pressed the End Call button on your IPhone, Mr. Sanz drives up, realizes you're a "medical professional" and pleads, "this is my wife, she was going to abort the baby tomorrow against my wishes, could you please save it".

HisMan, she was 7 months pregnant, so it's mighty far-fetched that she'd be scheduled for an abortion, period, let alone an elective one.

I'm fine with the post-viability restrictions we have, and it's not like pro-choicers "want" abortions to take place, per se, nor that they advocate 7 month fetuses not living. So, by all means, deliver the baby.

On Mr. Sanz, with the mother dead he's the closest living relative, so there too, by all means save the baby. I'd feel the same way if the pregnancy was not so far along, as well.

Write a book.

Posted by: HisMan at August 15, 2008 11:43 AM

Forget the book, Hisman. How about get your own talk show, newshour, something that gives us VISUALS since some aren't persuaded by words alone.

What if this mom had been hit while on her way to an abortion?

If she had been on her way for an abortion at seven months, odds are it would be because the fetus was already dead or dying.

"Forget the book, Hisman. How about get your own talk show, newshour, something that gives us VISUALS since some aren't persuaded by words alone."

Hahaha. Oh god yes, please do. It would be a reality TV version of FSTDT.com

I hope that the Sanz family will be okay. My heart goes out to them. I sincerely hope the baby makes it!!

Isn't Norway the land of a thousand lakes? Or is that Finland?

Jess, Finland, though there are actually almost 190,000 lakes there.

Or, it could be Mikolajki, Poland.

Or Ontario, Canada.

Or the Central Plateau of Tasmania.

Or, with a nod of the head to Rae, 1/10th of Minnesota.

If she had been on her way for an abortion at seven months, odds are it would be because the fetus was already dead or dying.

What would you do, reality?

This post raises several important points that should not be ignored over feigned concerns that the grieving family, hypothetically reading www.jillstanek.com on a funeral home computer, might feel disrespected.

First, it exposes the central lie of the pro-choice position that the humanity of the fetus is dependent on the perceptions of the mother and considerations regarding its "wantedness." If, indeed, the woman had scheduled an abortion, it seems that the rescuing physicians would be morally compelled to carry out her wishes. How would it be any different than their obigation to finish off the child in the situation where the mother died in the middle of a botched abortion? She has made HER decision that the cells within her uterus are unworthy of ripening into a life, and nobody's contrary perception is entitled to any weight. Why should it matter that she died a few minutes earlier in an accident rather that at the abortuary?

Second, it reveals the depravity of the pro-choice argument that every child must be a wanted child, brought into a perfect world. If it is sufficient reason to abort if the father has deserted the mother, what better justification may be raised than that the mother is dead and the child will never feel her love? And her death will have adverse economic consequences, too -- ones which the hospital's ethics panel, in consultation with its accountants, will be duty-bound to consider in determining whether the child will have the material wherewithal to thrive.

"If, indeed, the woman had scheduled an abortion, it seems that the rescuing physicians would be morally compelled to carry out her wishes. How would it be any different than their obigation to finish off the child in the situation where the mother died in the middle of a botched abortion?"

BRILLIANT point, RA!

"what better justification may be raised than that the mother is dead and the child will never feel her love?"

Again, what a piercing insight! Very sharp logic, RA. You need to hang around here more often.

With all due respect, there are some jobs that a pregnant woman should never do, simply because they are too dangerous.

How dangerous is it to be a New York City traffic agent? Are they run over and killed very often?

I can't find any statistics, but I did find this small blurb from 1982 about "first NY city traffic control officer killed in the line of duty since the force was established in 1960." I get the impression that being a NYC traffic agent is not that dangerous.

I would think that being a traffic agent would be even safer for a pregnant woman than a non-pregnant woman, since their size makes them more visible.

Bobby, with all due respect, RA's point is not compelling. After the death of the mother there is no justification for terminating the life of the fetus, since the mother's rights in the equation are extinguished. Therefore the "rights" of the baby win. The Mother's right to have an abortion is not becasue she has determined the baby should not live, but that the mother should no longer be pregnant.

Bethany --

What would you do, reality?

What could I do? I'm not Jesus. I can't raise dead fetuses.

What a sad story this is -- to be killed during what is such a time of great hope and excitement for many women. (Of course, it would be equally sad if a childless woman or man were killed.)

C.C.: "Right now I'm sitting in a Panera Bread restaurant and I can't help wondering if the girl I see dressed immodestly in way-short shorts and tight tank-top is a birth control user."

There's no 100% correlation between how one dresses and how one behaves in other ways. The revealing of skin does not equal sex or promiscuity. What about the young men in that Panera? Aren't there any in tank tops, or is "that different" to you?

Reality, it doesn't matter if the statistics say its more likely to be struck by lightning than killed at her job. Her proper place was in the kitchen, gosh darnit.

What could I do? I'm not Jesus. I can't raise dead fetuses.

The baby isn't dead. The baby survived, the mother did not. Where do you get the idea of a "dead fetus" from?

My question was more a follow up of Hisman's question at 1:29. What would you do?

Raving Atheist, at 2:22, what an excellent, excellent post.

The baby isn't dead. The baby survived, the mother did not. Where do you get the idea of a "dead fetus" from?

Did you not read my first comment?

If she had been going for an abortion at seven months, it would be because the fetus was already dead or dying.

If she had been going for an abortion at seven months, it would be because the fetus was already dead or dying.

Prove that, Reality. It's a lie. Even Guttmacher admits that the majority of late term abortions are performed for reasons of convenience.

Only 2 percent are performed for deformity. Even so, would you kill a deformed baby?

No need to kill a dead baby with an abortion.

Amanda @ 1:05 PM

Amanda - do you talk negatively about me or others on here anywhere besides this site? Do you make nasty comments about us to your friends? What about others - do you discuss their situations at all?

(No, I really don't think I figure too much into your world - I'm asking because I'm making a point.)

People talk.

Yet there's a distinct difference between positing a hypothetical as a conversation thread to discuss the issue of abortion, as opposed to someone who is going through a serious trial having to defend herself about her prior efforts and ideals. Huge difference.

We're very open about stuff here on the blog - incredibly open if you think about it, but it's not always good because there are few social cues to reign us in. We sometimes do things and say things that we wouldn't dare do in real life.

Even what I'm saying now should probably be moved to a private thread, however, as we all take part in this discussion, we all get to see it and take part in it - even if we look like an oversized dysfunctional family during Thanksgiving complete with witty one liners being occasionally flung in there by Jess.

Even Guttmacher admits that the majority of late term abortions are performed for reasons of convenience.

If by "late term" you mean "mid term," sure. But I'm talking about abortions at seven months, not 16 weeks. Abortion at seven months is illegal in most states. I only know of two clinics in the whole country that will even do such abortions, and they only do it if the woman's life or health is at risk, or the fetus is dead or dying. And since I'm neither a doctor nor Jesus, there's certainly nothing I could do to save a dying or dead fetus.

Reality, okay, maybe not "could",

but "would" you try?

Hal @ 2:34 PM

Hal - it's so nice to see you're in complete disagreement with yourself with that statement and your defense of Obama over BAIPA - because once the baby is "born alive" then the mother is no longer pregnant, and therefore the "abortion" has ceased.

I can't argue with you - you're too busy arguing with yourself!

or let me make it even easier for you. Would you care?

Reality, okay, maybe not "could",

but "would" you try?

Are you kidding? How would one even begin to "try" to perform a medical miracle with no training?

Would you care?

Care about what?

Reality, did you even READ Hisman's question?

Okay let me change it a bit. Would you try to get medical help for the baby, if you were the only one out there?

There are a number of ways you could do this, Reality... call 911, for starters. If you don't have a phone, wave someone down and ask for help.
Would you?

I can't argue with you - you're too busy arguing with yourself!
Posted by: Chris Arsenault at August 15, 2008 3:25 PM

Chris, what you might have missed in my early defense of Obama on this issue were my personal comments that I probably would have voted for the bill. I just can't seem demonizing Obama for having a different opinion. It's not like voting against it makes him a supporter of infanticide or anything like that.

completely agree with reality. Do you know how hard it is to get an abortion at 7 months? And how stupid do you think women are to look down and say, "Oh gee, I don't want to be preggers anymore, turns out I'm not ready to be a mom!" and get a voluntary abortion. Third trimester abortions are when the mother's life is in danger (thus, if she sadly died in the accident, of course deliver the baby, everyone would agree on that) or when the baby is dying or had already died and it is emotionally unbearable for a woman to walk around with a dead fetus in her uterus waiting to go into labor. Can you imagine feeling your baby kick and turn, and then it suddenly stop because the baby died? Would YOU want to wait two months to go through the anguish of labor only to deliver a baby you became attached to that then died? I guess that's another question- if the baby has died in-utero, is it still "baby killing" to terminate the pregnancy?

There are a number of ways you could do this, Reality... call 911, for starters. If you don't have a phone, wave someone down and ask for help.
Would you?

Obviously.

If the baby has died in-utero, is it still "baby killing" to terminate the pregnancy?

Um.
You cannot kill a baby that has died. A woman would deliver a still born child and her pregnancy would be over. "Terminating a pregnancy" is another term for abortion.

Common sense, huh?

It's also personal preference whether or not to induce labor for a woman whose child had passed away in-utero. I had a friend that waited for labor to start. She carried her stillborn child for a month and went through labor and delivery because she WANTED to.

Carla-

Do you feel it's better to wait and deliver naturally, or to induce labor when the baby has died? I'm really curious here, not trying to be disrespectful.

I think that if I was in that situation I would want to induce labor, simply because it would be so difficult to carry a baby that had passed away. So sad, and so hard to have to explain to people who didn't know the situation.

Is there a reason why waiting would be preferable, if the baby had already died?

Hal @ 3:48 PM

Hal - I did miss that.

As far as defending Obama - if this were an issue that allowed a different opinion, then chances are I would be in agreement with you. I think part of our experience as US citizens is being able to express differences on issues. Yet this issue is different because it is essentially what defines us as US citizens under the 14th Amendment.

If he were just a junior state senator and voted present on the first pass, then one might attribute that to his ignorance. The degree of defense and his continued lying about the situation, particularly when it comes to the final amendment that made IL identical to the US BAIPA with the neutrality clause, makes his rejection coldly calculating and hostile to all.

No man with that kind of perspective on life should ever be elected a US President.

There is no room for debate on this issue:

I and many others feel that what it means to be born alive is not open to debate.

Period.

TO: Cranky Catholic, re: August 15, 2008 10:59 AM

Commending you on expressing those thoughts.

Yeah, Chris, I'd say dysfunctional is a pretty fair assessment! :)

Again, why would it matter if she were going to get an abortion? Would it be GOOD she got hit by a car, then a bus, she died, and her baby lived? Would it be God's way of telling her she shouldn't have been going to get that abortion?

Like I said, I really don't get the question, and speculating on hypothetical situations ESPECIALLY during this tragedy seems quite inappropriate.

A poor baby is fighting for his life, a life without his momma, and all our thoughts and prayers should be focused on that.

Bee,
Hi!!
My friend wanted some time to process(she was 6 months along)she had the nursery all set up and wanted to pick a name because she found out he was a little boy. She was in no hurry and she wasn't pressured to induce labor.

I have heard in some states they allow women to take home their babies who had died in-utero. To let them lay in their cribs etc.

Grief is intensely personal and decisions like that are best left up to the Mommy and Daddy.

My personal opinion is that women feel pressured to "get on with it."

When I miscarried I was asked if I wanted a D&C. It was the next sentence out of the Dr.'s mouth after she told me my baby's heart had stopped beating....
Never went back to her again.

Elizabeth: Like I said, I really don't get the question

Well, duh....it's the ongoing question of the schizophrenic approach to the child in the womb. If the child is fortunate enough to be wanted, heaven and earth will be moved to fight for its life. If the child has been sentenced to death by those in control, no one cares. It's the difference between the child on the way to be aborted and the child living within the womb of its mother with no such intentions...and the schizophrenic approach to said chldren by this world today which has lost its reason. Finally got it there, hon?

KC,

What does THAT have to do with THIS?

You think they wouldn't try to save the baby if the woman was on her way to an abortion clinic? The paramedics, emergency room, NOBODY would try to save the baby?

Wouldn't they have to KNOW that kind of info. first? I'm pretty sure the woman who was hit by a car and then a bus wouldn't be able to tell them that. And I highly doubt the first thing on her mind is "Don't save my baby, I was going to have an abortion anyway!"

If that is her first thought after being run over TWICE, I'd say she has some serious problems anyway.

But that's the problem with hypothetical speculations in this situation.

I sure hope none of her family is reading this blog.

The Raving Atheist at August 15, 2008 2:22 PM.

Great Post!! exactly.

Hal, Hal, Hal, there you go again.

Even somebody that's dead has a right for their wishes to be carried out. It's called a will or even a claimed verbal expression of desire.

How in the hell do you think that scum bag got away with killing his wife, one Terry Schiavo?

And my questions have not been answered about what you proaborts would do with this baby. I know why, because there's only one obvious and correct answer and it contradicts everything that proaborts believe.

Ravin' Atheist: First, it exposes the central lie of the pro-choice position that the humanity of the fetus is dependent on the perceptions of the mother and considerations regarding its "wantedness."

No, this is just something you are making up. I'm pro-choicer and I grant you that the unborn in this argument are just as human as you and I.

And my questions have not been answered..

Once again:

HisMan, she was 7 months pregnant, so it's mighty far-fetched that she'd be scheduled for an abortion, period, let alone an elective one.

I'm fine with the post-viability restrictions we have, and it's not like pro-choicers "want" abortions to take place, per se, nor that they advocate 7 month fetuses not living. So, by all means, deliver the baby.

On Mr. Sanz, with the mother dead he's the closest living relative, so there too, by all means save the baby. I'd feel the same way if the pregnancy was not so far along, as well.

When I miscarried I was asked if I wanted a D&C. It was the next sentence out of the Dr.'s mouth after she told me my baby's heart had stopped beating....
Never went back to her again.

Posted by: Carla at August 15, 2008 5:11 PM
................................

You chose to spontaneously abort. That choice could have cost you your life as well as your reproductive ability. Your doctor was being responsible in asking if you wished to take control of what happened to your body rather than playing Russian Roulette and just hoping that a doctor might be available if the miscarriage became life threatening.
Of course that is your choice.

When I miscarried I was asked if I wanted a D&C. It was the next sentence out of the Dr.'s mouth after she told me my baby's heart had stopped beating....

I had the same experience too, with a substitute doctor that was on call that day - not my pro-life doctor.

They don't even give you time to even absorb the information, that your child has died, before they're asking you what you want to do about it. How insensitive! And the doctor that talked to me told me that I should definitely go with the D and C...even though I told her I wanted to miscarry naturally. My pro-life doctor later told me I didn't have to. That natural miscarriage is just as safe. This is one topic I want to cover in my book, as many women are pressured by their doctors to have the D and C when it's just not always necessary.

You chose to spontaneously abort. That choice could have cost you your life as well as your reproductive ability. Your doctor was being responsible in asking if you wished to take control of what happened to your body rather than playing Russian Roulette and just hoping that a doctor might be available if the miscarriage became life threatening.
Of course that is your choice.

I'm sorry that your family's experience was this way, but natural miscarriage is not always life threatening. I don't know what circumstances caused your mother to have such a hard time with hers. You are unfortunately projecting your experiences onto others, Sally.

Natural miscarriage is just as safe, if not safer, than D & C... My miscarriage was virtually pain free, except a little bit of cramping, and wasn't any worse than my period, with the exception of some clots and of course the baby and the placenta. Thousands of other women have natural miscarriages at home and it is the same story.

Some experiences are more painful, some are less painful, but most of them can be done at home without any physical problems. There are of course, exceptions. When the woman starts having a fever, it's a sign she may be having an incomplete miscarriage, which needs to be determined by a doctor. If she is bleeding enough to fill 3 or more pads an hour, it's time to go to the ER.

Other than that, everything should work out fine.

The body is an amazing thing, and generally knows what to do in the case of a miscarriage.

Did MK get banned for two weeks?

Your doctor was being responsible in asking if you wished to take control of what happened to your body rather than playing Russian Roulette and just hoping that a doctor might be available if the miscarriage became life threatening.

One could also say on the same note, that Carla wished to take control of her body by making her own choices of what to do with it.

She took control of her own body by naturally miscarrying, instead of giving over control of her body to a nurse with a curette.

She chose to do that, rather than play Russian Roulette with a D & C which she then knew can potentially cause scarring and asherman's syndrome;, which causes infertility. Oh yeah, and it can cause perforation of the uterus, which could be life threatening.

Did MK get banned for two weeks?

No, she's just away for a while. She'll be back soon!

I think she said Saturday, she'll be back. So only one more day to wait. :)

"Officially and for the record, if these questions go unanswered, I will assume that all pro-aborts are now pro-life and admit the error of their ways."

Thank you HisMan : )

If I was there of course I would help the baby too, I wouldn't even call to confirm she wanted an abortion, my first priority would be to do what I could do to help the mother and her baby.

If I was there of course I would help the baby too, I wouldn't even call to confirm she wanted an abortion, my first priority would be to do what I could do to help the mother and her baby.

Jess, that is the best answer I've heard in response to that question! :) And I definitely believe you would.

I love you Bethany and Carla, you are some amazing women : )

P.S. Bethany I'm moving into my on campus apartment in two weeks and since I'll have a kitchen (which I'll be sharing with my 5 roommates) I wanted to try that once-a-month cooking. I don't know how it will work though, because I won't have that much storage room but I'll only be cooking for one, not five like you : )

Jess, I love you too!! :)

There is also "Once a week cooking", which you might find better for you, if you don't have much storage space! Here is a link to some Vegetarian recipes for Once a week cooking...maybe it will be useful for you! :)

http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/vegbaby.htm

And here's some more recipes!
http://www.3fatchicks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44715

I hope that if you try it, you'll be posting pictures...cause I'd love to see what you could do with it! :)

Also, here is one way that a girl was able to fit a whole month's worth of meals for her whole family in her regular freezer... quite a feat!

http://www.christysclipart.com/wwwroot/freezer.html

Keep in mind Bethany I don't work when I'm at school so I'm kind of on a fixed income, lol. But if I make anything decent I'll be sure to share it with you!

Oh okay, was just trying to find vegetarian cause I know you eat vegetarian ...I know a lot of cheaper meals but they all have chicken in them! :)

I'm sorry that your family's experience was this way, but natural miscarriage is not always life threatening. I don't know what circumstances caused your mother to have such a hard time with hers. You are unfortunately projecting your experiences onto others, Sally.

Natural miscarriage is just as safe, if not safer, than D & C... My miscarriage was virtually pain free, except a little bit of cramping, and wasn't any worse than my period, with the exception of some clots and of course the baby and the placenta. Thousands of other women have natural miscarriages at home and it is the same story.

Some experiences are more painful, some are less painful, but most of them can be done at home without any physical problems. There are of course, exceptions. When the woman starts having a fever, it's a sign she may be having an incomplete miscarriage, which needs to be determined by a doctor. If she is bleeding enough to fill 3 or more pads an hour, it's time to go to the ER.

Other than that, everything should work out fine.

The body is an amazing thing, and generally knows what to do in the case of a miscarriage.

Posted by: Bethany at August 15, 2008 10:11 PM
......................................

You are projecting your lack of experience and thoughtful consideration Bethany. The advances in gestational medicine have not come about because the body is an amazing thing that just magically knows what to do to protect the woman and her gestational abilities. I doubt if you have given birth at home knowing full well how many things can go wrong.

Carla's ex doctor would have been remiss in not offering an abortion. She was concerned for Carla's well being if not her very life. Doctors actually have education you know. It's odd that you or Carla would be insulted by the doctor's concern.

But of course, it is Carla's right to refuse medical assistance. As you say, many many babies cease becoming babies with hardly a notice by mommy. Just a little cramp and bye bye.
Do you harbor some kind of guilt over your miscarriage Bethany?

Oh, just realized that wasn't your point. lol I'm tired tonight! :)

I think that whatever you make should be fine. Just work with what you have and have fun! :)

Bethany I have a fun story for you.

My job as a canvasser is sure to come up with many an interesting story. The other day I had a pretty bad day (I had someone tell me my career choice was meaningless and that he 'wouldn't send his daughter to me'), but I was talking to this really nice lady at this one door and her husband comes to the door holding their new baby.

Then, the baby and I lock eyes...

...and it spits up ALL OVER THE PLACE.

The mom said, "Oh my goodness I haven't seen so much spit up out of her before! Don't worry, she just ate a lot, that's all."

I told her it must have been my harry potter shirt.

You are projecting your lack of experience and thoughtful consideration Bethany. The advances in gestational medicine have not come about because the body is an amazing thing that just magically knows what to do to protect the woman and her gestational abilities. I doubt if you have given birth at home knowing full well how many things can go wrong.

No, I did plenty of research once I found out I had miscarried. All day and night I spent researching and seeking information on what is the best way to miscarry. Also, I spoke with my doctor about it. Turns out that natural miscarriage is just as safe as D & C. Unless you think my doctor would lie to me.

Carla's ex doctor would have been remiss in not offering an abortion. She was concerned for Carla's well being if not her very life. Doctors actually have education you know. It's odd that you or Carla would be insulted by the doctor's concern.

No, I'm insulted at their lack of understanding, that she needed some time to absorb the impact of the words they had just told her. That her baby had died. D & C doesn't have to be done immediately, you know.

But of course, it is Carla's right to refuse medical assistance. As you say, many many babies cease becoming babies with hardly a notice by mommy. Just a little cramp and bye bye.
Do you harbor some kind of guilt over your miscarriage Bethany?

Absolutely not. Why would I?

LOL PIP! :D Thanks for sharing that story!

*******************
I'm about to go to bed, and will talk to you all tomorrow! :)

Sally,

Does it make you feel better as a pro-abort to use the word "abortion" for a misscarriage that happened? Do you understand how cruel that would sound?

Would you say to a friend that miscarried "I'm sorry about your abortion"?

Sally,

Does it make you feel better as a pro-abort to use the word "abortion" for a misscarriage that happened? Do you understand how cruel that would sound?

Would you say to a friend that miscarried "I'm sorry about your abortion"?

Posted by: Jasper at August 15, 2008 11:47 PM

..............................

My mother had 3 spontaneous abortions. My oldest sis had 6. This is how they spoke of what they experienced. Do you feel that squishy feely terminology somehow changes the fact that a pregnancy was aborted? Does it make you feel better to be anti-choice?

"You cannot kill a baby that has died. A woman would deliver a still born child and her pregnancy would be over. "Terminating a pregnancy" is another term for abortion.

Common sense, huh?"

I only asked because on this website it seems that abortion=baby killing, no ifs ands or buts. If that logic works, and a 7-month-pregnant woman was getting an abortion because her baby had already died, is that less terrible? Then again you could call it induced labor but either way it's a medical process that goes against nature, which would be waiting for delivery.

No need to mock me. Thats poop.

Let me try again.

Sally,
Would you say to a friend that miscarried "I'm sorry about your abortion"?

No, I did plenty of research once I found out I had miscarried. All day and night I spent researching and seeking information on what is the best way to miscarry.
...............

Huh? The best way to miscarry? Like there is a proper and acceptable way to have a heart attack?

Let me try again.

Sally,
Would you say to a friend that miscarried "I'm sorry about your abortion"?

Posted by: Jasper at August 16, 2008 12:26 AM
.....................

I wouldn't say anything at all. Just listen. Ever try just listening Jasper?

Ok,

sorry about your Mom's and sister's mis-carriages. That must have been very difficult.

Carla's ex doctor would have been remiss in not offering an abortion. She was concerned for Carla's well being if not her very life. Doctors actually have education you know. It's odd that you or Carla would be insulted by the doctor's concern.

No, I'm insulted at their lack of understanding, that she needed some time to absorb the impact of the words they had just told her. That her baby had died. D & C doesn't have to be done immediately, you know.
.......................

Carla never suggested that her doctor recommended an immediate abortion. That her pregnancy might not result in a baby isn't something that should have to be explained to any woman pregnant. Apparently you believe that mental health professionals should deal with gestational issues.

Ok,

sorry about your Mom's and sister's mis-carriages. That must have been very difficult.

Posted by: Jasper at August 16, 2008 12:54 AM
.................

Difficult how Jasper? It's part and parcel of being a woman.

Have any of you ever read the Perelandra science fiction series by C.S. Lewis? Do you remember his representation of the devil, the absolutely depraved man talking to the naked Ransom on the island with the naked woman?

Or have you read his THE GREAT DIVORCE? I wish Lewis could have been on this blog. But maybe he wouldn't have seen any point in it. He would have treated everybody more respectfully than I do, but he may not have seen any point in talking to strangers the way I do. Of course, many of you have gotten to know each other. So maybe he would have seen a point.

It's true: I also like a good argument for the sake of a good argument. But why not argue about things (or persons) worth arguing about?

"You cannot kill a baby that has died. A woman would deliver a still born child and her pregnancy would be over. "Terminating a pregnancy" is another term for abortion.

Common sense, huh?"

I only asked because on this website it seems that abortion=baby killing, no ifs ands or buts. If that logic works, and a 7-month-pregnant woman was getting an abortion because her baby had already died, is that less terrible? Then again you could call it induced labor but either way it's a medical process that goes against nature, which would be waiting for delivery.

No need to mock me. Thats poop.

Posted by: common sense at August 16, 2008 12:19 AM

Common sense I beleive most of the prolifers on this blog OBJECT to the use of the word abortion for the event known as miscarriage. Miscarriage, although known to medical professionals as a spontaneous abortion is usually not referred to by women or by medical professionals to women, as an abortion. The word is now a "loaded" term. I think ANY of my women friends would have been offended by a doctor telling them they had "aborted" their baby. And I don't think most doctors would use this term to a woman -medical schools are very much into teaching doctors how to relate to their patients these days!
If a woman had a 7 month baby who died, she would not be told she was having an abortion, nor would she refer to the situation in this manner. She would be "induced" if labour did not start of it's own accord and she would deliver a stillborn/dead baby.
It IS disingenuous to use the term "abortion" in this case - I see it as an attempt to put some kind of legitimacy on the face of abortion which does equal the murder of another person (in utero).

Common Sense,
I apologize for mocking you. I was wrong and I am sorry.

Sally,
When my baby's heart stopped beating I didn't even hear an "I am so sorry." Do you honestly think I could go through with another procedure that would remind me of the abortion I had years earlier?? Hmmmmm.
She said, "Your baby's heart stopped beating. Do you want a D&C?" That hurt. A lot.
Nothing odd about a woman wanting to have a voice over a child she loved very, very much. Like I said grief is personal. I was treated horribly. I thank God I left that Dr. and never went back. I delivered Jamie in my hand and saw for myself the humanity of an unborn child. My child. It was the turning point for me and the start of my journey through abortion recovery.
Call yours a spontaneous abortion. It is not what I call my experience with miscarriage.

I love you too Jess!!
Bethany I can't wait to read your book!!

Carla never suggested that her doctor recommended an immediate abortion.

And I never suggested that either, Sally.

That her pregnancy might not result in a baby isn't something that should have to be explained to any woman pregnant.

I didn't say that either, Sally. If you would have paid attention to what I said, I was saying that Carla should have been given some time to absorb the information that was given to her, before being asked how she wanted to let the miscarriage happen.

Apparently you believe that mental health professionals should deal with gestational issues.

I think that doctors should be more understanding of their patients emotions, yes.

My pregnancy did result in a baby. 11 weeks along and delivered into my hand. Perfect. Beautiful. Precious. Jamie.
This momma loves ALL of her babies. The ones in heaven and the ones here right now watching cartoons and eating muffins.

Carla, I found that being able to see my baby and actually having a memorial service for him/her was very healing. Did seeing your baby give you a sense of closure as well?

Huh? The best way to miscarry? Like there is a proper and acceptable way to have a heart attack?

No, Sally, I think it was pretty clear that I was speaking of the natural miscarriage vs. D&C.

Not initially, Bethany. I freaked out. Dr. Cruel never mentioned I might go into labor and deliver a baby. She never mentioned what it would feel like or what could happen or what I might see. She said, "You will pass a plum sized clot." I was expecting to see a plum sized clot.
Back to freaking out..I screamed and screamed and screamed,"My baby, my baby, my baby!" My husband in his horrified clumsy sweetness...stood there. He didn't know what to do or how to help. I didn't know either.

Another tragedy occurred in my life a month later and I sunk into a deep depression. December 1995 was black and dark. I got into counseling. I was diagnosed with Severe Depression with Situational Crisis Issues...snappy! :) I found healing by embracing what my baby meant to me, writing poetry for Jamie, talking to others, reading books on miscarriage and sharing my feelings with my husband and pastor.

More healing for me came when I repented to God for my abortion and thanked Him for showing me Jamie. I doubt that I would have come to be prolife if not for seeing him in my hand.

Rachel's Vineyard was huge for me and the memorial service that we held. My baby's names will also be engraved on a stone in the fall.
Aubrey 1990
Jamie 1995
Lee 2001

Bethany, THANK YOU for all you do to help others in their grief of losing a child!!

Carla, how devastating!

I am continually amazed that doctors will not prepare women for miscarriage any better than that.

I remember doing searches on the internet for a week before the miscarriage happened, desperately trying to find SOMEONE who had had a natural miscarriage and had seen their baby, and describing what I would actually see when it came out. I couldn't really find anything on it (which is one reason for the book; I know there are others looking and not turning up with anything).

I am thankful to know that something good came from your loss. That you came to realize how important life is in the womb. I'm sorry that you had to deal with so much depression before you could heal though. Actually expressing your grief and allowing yourself to "feel" the pain is the best way to heal, though. I'm glad that you were able to heal, and then to be able to help others!

Thank YOU for all of the outreach you do for unborn babies! You may never know how many women (and their babies) you have helped.

Is it considered more "pro-life" to miscarry naturally than to have a D&C?

:)

Healing can only come with allowing yourself to feel what you feel. Not stuffing it or running from it. Gotta get through the pain to get to the healing.

Sandy I am sure has much input for your book as well!!!

I remember my 2nd miscarriage as being a totally different experience. I had found a prolife dr. by then. He was so wonderful. Just listening to me and offering his condolences. His nurse held me and cried with me. Giving me the time to process and just being there helped so much.

Bee,
I don't think one is more prolife than the other. A child has already passed away inside of you and I would hope that women would get more information to decide which direction they would like delivery to go. My opinion.

Is it considered more "pro-life" to miscarry naturally than to have a D&C?

Absolutely not...but many women are pressured to and dont know that they have options. That's what I was basically referring to.

Once the baby has already died, there is nothing morally wrong with having a D & C in that case.

Sandy I am sure has much input for your book as well!!!

sandy has been a TREMENDOUS help with my book!! I owe her a huge thank you!

I remember my 2nd miscarriage as being a totally different experience. I had found a prolife dr. by then. He was so wonderful. Just listening to me and offering his condolences. His nurse held me and cried with me. Giving me the time to process and just being there helped so much.

My pro-life doctor was very kind also. She hugged me and told me about her experience, and helped to comfort me. She also gave me two pages that she had xeroxed out of a book, that she said had helped her through her miscarriages. It was very comforting. I didn't get that kind of treatment from any of the other doctors or nurses there.

I wanted to try that once-a-month cooking.

Jess, just get a month's worth of beef jerky - no cooking involved.

Oh. Or not.

Oops - the above is me; cleared my cache...

"Did MK get banned for two weeks?"

No, she's just away for a while. She'll be back soon!

Bethany, I figured, and was just being a brat, but that first sentence of yours sounds so deadpan...

Doug,
Stir up some trouble for MK to clean up when she gets back. I double dog dare ya.

Sally,Does it make you feel better as a pro-abort to use the word "abortion" for a misscarriage that happened? Do you understand how cruel that would sound?Would you say to a friend that miscarried "I'm sorry about your abortion"?
Posted by: Jasper at August 15, 2008 11:47 PM
..............................
My mother had 3 spontaneous abortions. My oldest sis had 6. This is how they spoke of what they experienced. Do you feel that squishy feely terminology somehow changes the fact that a pregnancy was aborted? Does it make you feel better to be anti-choice?

The last half of my post was cut off so here it is again:

Sally,Does it make you feel better as a pro-abort to use the word "abortion" for a misscarriage that happened? Do you understand how cruel that would sound?Would you say to a friend that miscarried "I'm sorry about your abortion"?
Posted by: Jasper at August 15, 2008 11:47 PM
..............................
My mother had 3 spontaneous abortions. My oldest sis had 6. This is how they spoke of what they experienced. Do you feel that squishy feely terminology somehow changes the fact that a pregnancy was aborted? Does it make you feel better to be anti-choice?

Oh, well... It's still not posting correctly....

Sally, In what part of the country was your mother living? Small town? city? You said she had spontaneous abortions, did she have any induced abortions? What was the reason for so many spontaneous abortions? Was induced abortion common and accepted among her friends and family? Was you mother in a medical profession? Have you heard of "restoring the menses". (That was a "nice" term for early abortion back in the days....) Was she pro-choice? Did you talk about abortion and womens' rights?

Janet:

I think you asked too many questions of Sally at one time.

Hisman, I think she was just replying Sally-style! :)

Stir up some trouble for MK to clean up when she gets back. I double dog dare ya.

Ha! Carla, the thing is, other people have to be willing to get worked up, and I don't see much of that right now.

I tried to get Jess to get a whole month's supply of beef jerky so she wouldn't have to cook, but it just rolls off her like water off a dang duck.

No, this is just something you are making up. I'm pro-choicer and I grant you that the unborn in this argument are just as human as you and I.

Doug,

I couldn't make this stuff up. Ever since (and before) the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade declared that "[w]e need not resolve the difficult question of when [human] life begins", mainstream pro-choice organizations like Planned Parenthood and NARAL have consistently argued that it begins whenever the woman says it does. Although recently most of their representatives have refrained from employing the usual "parasite/tapeworm/clump of cells" denigrations of the fetus, they are quite clear that before birth we're dealing with at best "potential" human life, not actual human life. They've also deployed legions of clergy to promote the notion that drawing the line anywhere would violate religious freedom. (The only departure from this protocol occurs when discussing embryonic stem cell research -- the pro-choice lobby argues that there is something very, very, VERY special about those particular cells and will accept no substitutes).

So your pro-choice formulation is the exception rather than the rule. In some ways, I imagine it's more difficult to defend; for all it's honesty,"it's as human as me, so what" doesn't make as good as bumper sticker as "pro-family pro-choice." And while it's refreshing that you don't consider the unborn to be parasites, your ultimate position on the issue reminds me of one of Alfred Hitchcock's famous quotes: "I never said all actors are cattle; what I said was all actors should be treated like cattle."

Bobby, Bethany, Jasper: Thanks, thanks, thanks!

Is it considered more "pro-life" to miscarry naturally than to have a D&C?

Thanks Bee, I think that's what I was trying to get at earlier. And don't feel bad Carla, you weren't being a meanie :) And no need to respond guys, I already read all the responses up there.

I think I may be changing my name soon.

Bethany and Carla: I'm so sorry about your miscarriages.[big hug]
My friend who miscarried her baby at 11 weeks also found it very a traumatic experience. And her doctor was none too kind either. My friends all supported one another when they had miscarriages and had helpful tips to get the mom through so they didn't have to go to the hospital for a D&C.
Aw heck. Life just doesn't always work out so well does it? God bless both of you!

interesting questions Janet....

Thanks Patricia. Hugs to you. :)

Nonebody wants to pway wis Doug. Sowwy.
(That is toddler speak. I am fluent.)

Carla, I should be fluent, since my wife is wont to say to me, at times, "You're such a child!"

Ah well, you'll have that....

Raving Atheist: I couldn't make this stuff up. Ever since (and before) the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade declared that "[w]e need not resolve the difficult question of when [human] life begins", mainstream pro-choice organizations like Planned Parenthood and NARAL have consistently argued that it begins whenever the woman says it does.

I haven't seen that. Are they really saying that "human life" begins when the woman deems it does? If it's really that way - said in such an unqualified manner - then I'd disagree with them too. However, that's not the issue, really.
.....

Although recently most of their representatives have refrained from employing the usual "parasite/tapeworm/clump of cells" denigrations of the fetus, they are quite clear that before birth we're dealing with at best "potential" human life, not actual human life.

Okay, because it is not so simple as you stated it, above. I have indeed seen the "potential" argument, and while I agree with you that "life" per se is there at conception and that it is certainly human, there are other states of being that are considered. And it is not simply the genetic "human" nor the fact of a living organism that is really the issue - it's about societal status, the attribution of rights, if any, personhood etc. There is the sense of a legal human being, a self-aware being, a being with "humanity," an independent life, etc.
.....

They've also deployed legions of clergy to promote the notion that drawing the line anywhere would violate religious freedom. (The only departure from this protocol occurs when discussing embryonic stem cell research -- the pro-choice lobby argues that there is something very, very, VERY special about those particular cells and will accept no substitutes).

I think having the line drawn at viability or thereabouts, as I think 41 of the states have it, isn't debated all that much. "Religious freedom" - heck, I think religious arguments aimed at people who don't share that same religion are silly. If one doesn't start with the same assumptions, it's fruitless to act like they "should" believe and act the same way.
.....

So your pro-choice formulation is the exception rather than the rule. In some ways, I imagine it's more difficult to defend; for all it's honesty,"it's as human as me, so what" doesn't make as good as bumper sticker as "pro-family pro-choice." And while it's refreshing that you don't consider the unborn to be parasites, your ultimate position on the issue reminds me of one of Alfred Hitchcock's famous quotes: "I never said all actors are cattle; what I said was all actors should be treated like cattle."

Heh, gotta love it. Again, though, I don't see people saying the unborn here are not living human organisms.

On the "parasite" thing - there are definitions which support yea or nay, but I think much of this line of argument is more just attempting to push buttons with pro-lifers. I think the physical state of the unborn is usually agreed to (at least largely so) and that the real deal is our valuation of the unborn, our desire, if any, with respect to the unborn and either in accordance or in opposition to the desire of the pregnant woman.

Thanks Patricia. Hugs to you. :)

Nonebody wants to pway wis Doug. Sowwy.
(That is toddler speak. I am fluent.)

Posted by: Carla at August 16, 2008 7:00 PM

me too. My brain was mushy for many years after babies. It was the violin that straigthened me out!! lol

Raving Atheist: I couldn't make this stuff up. Ever since (and before) the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade declared that "[w]e need not resolve the difficult question of when [human] life begins", mainstream pro-choice organizations like Planned Parenthood and NARAL have consistently argued that it begins whenever the woman says it does.

Doug posted: I haven't seen that. Are they really saying that "human life" begins when the woman deems it does? If it's really that way - said in such an unqualified manner - then I'd disagree with them too. However, that's not the issue, really.
.....

Absolutely, that is what it is tantamount to. No other member of society has the absolute right to decide if another person lives or dies except the pregnant woman and all because of that person's location. Her right trumps even the father who made the baby with her.
For many women seeking to rid themselves of an inconvenient abortion, I'm sure the "it's a blob" argument plays out in the minds and is definitely encouraged by the abortion industry. Otherwise why would the abortion industry be SOOO opposed to ultrasounds? Would that really make abortion a true "choice"?

sorry the above should read
For many women seeking to rid themselves of an inconvenient baby, I'm sure the "it's a blob" argument plays out in the minds and is definitely encouraged by the abortion industry. Otherwise why would the abortion industry be SOOO opposed to ultrasounds? Would that really make abortion a true "choice"?

Carla: You are a shining example of Christ's love and mercy. You make me smile.

Bethany: likewise a walking wounded soldier for Christ.

Sally: Got any barf bags?

Patricia: Keep fighting those liberal Canuks.

Dear HisMan,
:)
Thank you. I know that we fight the same fight.

No other member of society has the absolute right to decide if another person lives or dies except the pregnant woman and all because of that person's location.

The unborn haven't been attributed personhood, Patricia - that's what's got you riled up in the first place. Yes, the woman is the one who's pregnant so she gets to decide.
......

Her right trumps even the father who made the baby with her.

Well, if the man would get pregnant then his right'd trump hers.
.....

For many women seeking to rid themselves of an inconvenient baby, I'm sure the "it's a blob" argument plays out in the minds and is definitely encouraged by the abortion industry. Otherwise why would the abortion industry be SOOO opposed to ultrasounds? Would that really make abortion a true "choice"?

I can see why compulsory untrasounds would be objected to, but if a given woman wants to see an ultrasound, then I'm all for it being available.

No other member of society has the absolute right to decide if another person lives or dies except the pregnant woman and all because of that person's location.

The unborn haven't been attributed personhood, Patricia - that's what's got you riled up in the first place. Yes, the woman is the one who's pregnant so she gets to decide.

NOPE. Actually the unborn HAD personhood until 1973 in the US and until 1988 in Canada. Until this time, a woman could not kill her unborn baby precisely because society recognized this for the grave evil that it is - murder of a human being. The baby had the protection of the law.

Her right trumps even the father who made the baby with her.

Well, if the man would get pregnant then his right'd trump hers.
.....

Yes, well then the woman should NOT expect to have the father pay child support. If she's gonna take full responsibility for the baby that should include after birth as well. Women shouldn't be allowed to have their cake and eat it too. At the very least, the man - known as the father of the child should have intervenor status - if he wants to protect his child. Here we are telling men they have to be responsible for the children they conceive but when they do step up to the plate - we tell them to get lost. What a double standard!

Ultrasounds and a video about the fetal development as well as detailed literature about the risks of abortion should be MANDATORY prior to having an abortion. In this way it will truly be a "choice". Of course, it really isn't at choice that the proaborts/feminista's are after -their platform built upon giving women absolute power in sex and marriage. Free BC, free abortions and free, no fault divorce. How many wmoen really want this?

Your argument has no legs Doug. The fact that you, a "man" is pushing this agenda is indicative of the fact that you don't truly care about women - you care about being able to have sex without any responsibility - just to satisfy you desires and to use women. You've done your part to contribute to the culture of pornification of women and girls and to lower women to mere sex objects. Thanks for nothing!

BTW Doug, If a woman is going to snuff the life out of a child through abortion, ultrasounds should be compulsory. She should and MUST see what it is that she is killing! Bottom line - she needs to be responsible so she can't come back years later and say, "but no one told me!"

I agree Patricia. The ultrasound should be shown so perhaps a woman can also have the opportunity to change her mind. :)

Nobody told me either. But somewhere deep down I knew.

I read some post abortive women stories where they didn't get to see the screen, it was deliberately turned away from them. Guess they don't want the truth being shown to the women (that its not a blob of tissue, but a tiny human being growing in there).

I think Carla can testify to the fact that abortionists lie and say its "not a baby yet".

Ultrasounds, especially 3D and 4D, are what are saving many lives. And real fetal development information does, too.

I'd love for there to be a bipartisan effort to pass a bill giving pregnant college aged women the resources to CONTINUE their pregnancies AND finish college at the same time.

I can't wait to donate some items to BirthRight again this year, right around Christmas time. I'll donate quite a few items like I always do.

Patricia @ 7:03, I mostly agree except I don't know if should always be compulsory. There might be a case in where the mothers life is at risk and she doesn't want to abort, but she knows she should do everything she can do to live and be there for her family.

I definitely think it should be offered though to all women before they have an abortion, along with other informative material, such as the babies development and such.

Patricia I have also said that women should be offered a chance to or required to view a video of an abortion procedure before actually having one. I feel like maybe a lot of women don't actually know what they are having done to themselves and their babies.

Actually the unborn HAD personhood until 1973 in the US and until 1988 in Canada.

Patricia, nope.
.....

Your argument has no legs Doug. The fact that you, a "man" is pushing this agenda is indicative of the fact that you don't truly care about women - you care about being able to have sex without any responsibility - just to satisfy you desires and to use women.

Heh, this is you having given up on rational argument.

I care about women, and feel that they should not be subject to your desires in the matter of continuing or ending their pregnancies. You are not the one to tell them what to do. Far better to let them decide for themselves what is best.

I'm married and am not involved with "sex without responsibility," etc., even in your opinion, though (of course) you're not aware enough to realize that - you prefer to rant and rave.

If a woman is going to snuff the life out of a child through abortion, ultrasounds should be compulsory.

Patricia, no - if she wants to see an ultrasound, fine, and if not, fine.

Liz,
I have met so many women who regret their abortions that it hardly surprises me anymore about we have been told or not told.

It's a blob of cells.
It's a clump of tissue.
It's not a baby.
It's the products of conception.
It's a simple, quick procedure.
You can get on with your life.

Some have had the ultrasound screen turned away from them. Some have been lied to about how far along they were. Some have flat out asked if it's a baby and been told no.

Lies. All lies.

thats so sad