I concur with Bob Enyart, Ken Scott, and Will Duffy's firm opposition to Mc Cain/Palin.

They should also be picketing Jill's house soon.

John McCain is the only person who can prevent the human catastrophe of having Barack Obama in power promoting unlimited killing of ALL human beings in the first nine months of our lives. Even though he is not perfect, all supporters of unborn human rights should, in fact MUST, support him and Sarah Palin for the good of humanity. It does not serve the cause of unborn children at all to do anything which can help put dangerous politicians like Obama and Biden in power.

What about this part of the press release:

"Dr. Dobson is openly violating the pledge he took before God," said Birkey, "by voting for John McCain. Both the Sarah Palin distraction, and the candidate's rhetoric to Rick Warren claiming he believes that human rights begin at conception, are belied by McCain's long tolerance of chemical abortifacients and funding the dissection of the tiniest embryonic boys and girls."

Is "chemical abortion" and "dissection of embryonic boys and girls" no longer important to you, Jill?

John McCain is the only person who can prevent the human catastrophe of having Barack Obama in power promoting unlimited killing of ALL human beings in the first nine months of our lives.

See, this just isn't going to work. "Barack Obama will promote baby killing" is just SUCH an EXTREME lie, only the most extremist of anti-choicers can take it seriously (and they were already voting Republican). Everyone else just looks at this and thinks "God, the Republicans really are out of ideas, aren't they?"

I get the sense that pro-lifers don't want to vote so much for McCain as they do for Palin. It's just unfortunate for pro-lifers that McCain is attached to the ticket. What pro-lifers want is a Palin presidency and that won't likely come until '12 and only on the condition that she serves as VP first.

Reality: Explain what it meant that Obama expressed understanding that babies are aborted alive but argued that they not be assessed and potentially saved. What is that called?

reality,

Where have you been the past few years?

You need to face reality and stop pretending.
Obama is the most extreme pro-abortion politician in Washington or anywhere for that matter.

Did you not hear his promise that his first act as President would be to sign into law the FOCA (Freedom of Choice Act)?

Haven't you researched the now well-documented facts of Obama's record whilst an Illinois state senator regarding the Illinois BAIPA, which he killed in committee, even though it was identical to the federal version?

Well, if American Right to Life wants to help get Obama elected, no one can stop them.

Wonder who they'll be picketing then.

Oh, good! On the pro-death side, we have:
* the most pro-abortion candidate in American history running for President, and he has a darned good chance of winning
* a Democratic Party platform that (despite the best efforts of pro-life Dems) is actually more full-throated in its defense of abortion than before

And as pro-lifers, we have:
* a GOP Presidential candidate who -- while not perfect -- is largely pro-life, and who faces an uphill struggle
* a GOP VP candidate who is a member of Feminists for Life, who has displayed pro-life conviction in her own choices, and who has energized the pro-life base like nothing else in years

Therefore, this is the perfect time for pro-lifers to begin attacking each other! Well done, boys!

(end sarcasm)

Here's my counter-proposal: Why can't all pro-lifers work together, at least until Roe is defeated? Surely we can all agree on that much, right? After Roe joins the Dredd Scott decision in history's never-to-be-recycled bin, then we can pick fights with each other about how to proceed.

Sound reasonable?

Whoops ... Anonymous @ 11:22am was me.

Yes, we must view this as a sad thing, " a complete waste of time and harmful to the name of a good man." The pickets of the Denver contractor on Christmas day were so much more godly.

Hal, LOL. But this Christmas, Enyart will be at Jill's house, picketing her for having supported the "pro-abort" McCain/Palin ticket. He may have to borrow Jill's mutilated fetus posters, as his won't fit on the plane.

Hey Hal:

Just checking in? So exactly how does Planned Parenthood compensate you?

Are you on the clock or is it a salary?

How absolutely amazing it is to see proaborts trying to support the attacks on Dr. James Dobson for not being "radical enough" in his opposition to abortion....

It would be funny, if it weren't so completely dishonest....

It saddens me to see "pro-lifers" wasting such time and energy attacking their allies. We are in the fight of our lives to bring people's attention to how pro-abortion Barack Obama is, and they go and protest...... Dr. Dobson?!?!?!?

I'm sorry, but I'm having a really difficult time taking them seriously after these kind of antics. James Dobson has always stood firmly for life. I'm not sure what ARTL is seeking to accomplish in electing BO, except more blood on the hands of principle over action. Can someone explain how attacking other pro-lifers and pro-life groups, even if you disagree on some issues, will save babies? That's why we're here, isn't it? Because we value life? That's why *I'M* here reading these kind of blogs. Why is ARTL here? Guess they care more about getting their name out there than actually accomplishing something worthwhile. What a waste.

Looks like old "stinky-breath" has been busy again. It certainly can't help the prolife cause that we divide and bicker amongst ourselves.
What is ARTL thinking here? Who would they vote for? Is it that they expect prolife voters to spoil their ballots, thus giving the Obama camp the victory? It makes no sense to me.

Yes,

And contrary to the pro-life movement, it is refreshing to see Liberals all united in the cause for murdering innocent children.

This little controversy means nothing and if this is the only thing pro-deathers get to celibrate about, it is evidence that the pro-life movement is doing very, very well, thank you.

I wonder if ARTL will be to the Republican ticket what the disgruntled Clinton supporter could be to the Democratic ticket, except ARTL is probably savy enough not to vote at all, and are likely much much smaller in terms of numbers.

Bit off topic, but if anyone has access to the third edition of Social Ethics, I would encourage everyone to read through the first chapter and its readings. It's all philosophical arguments for or against abortion and is fairly interesting. It alternates between pro-life and pro-choice arguments, and some fairly compelling points for both sides are brought up. Definitely a good read.

Look at a local college library though if you can, it's a text book and thus pricey.

Hal-

I agree that the protest on Christmas Day was ridiculous. I don't know if this was the same case, but protesting the homes of those involved in building/contracting/ownership/whatever of the company that helped build the Aurora facility was ridiculous too. I have no idea what makes people think their view/side/etc will be more respected with those types of protests. Protesting the facility/site is one thing, protesting at private residences is quite another.

I really don't get this either. I mean, yes, I wish that McCain took a bigger stand on ESCR, but he is miles and away better than Obama. Why would we want to help get Obama elected?

I mean, we have to work within the bounds of our government. All or nothing doesn't work.

Bwahahahahaha

A great many antics of anti-choicers obviate how asinine they are, but few can compare to the priceless occasions when they're attacking each other.

Cameron?!

Speaking of asinine....

"...it [that pro-choicers celebrate this conflict] is evidence that the pro-life movement is doing very, very well, thank you."

The compulsory pregnancy goal has been or is being realized?

LOL

Yes... I'm back Jill... here to celebrate your foolishness.

Viel Spass!

Hey Hal:

Just checking in? So exactly how does Planned Parenthood compensate you?

Are you on the clock or is it a salary?
Posted by: HisMan at September 5, 2008 11:46 AM

Ha, I wish. I actually have to send them money. Well, at least it's tax deductable.

CAMERON?!?!?!?

Wow! Where've you been? How've you been? For old times sake, I just gotta do it...

Speaking of asinine....Cameron at September 5, 2008 12:42 PM

Sorry, I could not help myself...bad MK...bad, bad MK.

Oliver,

Take note...you could have a lot of fun with Cam...and I could have a lot of fun watching.

Another difference between us and them...when one of our own does something incredibly stupid we say "Hey, you, that was incredibly stupid"

When one of yours does something incredibly stupid, you change the rules to make what they did justifiable.

Denial, denial, denial.

ARTL...what you did was incredibly stupid.

As a Christian I cannot support anyone who would stand by, for whatever reason, and allow even one baby to be murdered. I wouldn't support someone who would allow one baby to be murdered to save one hundred others, either.
I don't see how I compromise on that principle, just a little, without surrendering any reason to hold to it in the first place.
That this is called a "radical position" by those who call themselves pro-life illustrates more perfectly the schism in the pro-life movement. Don't bother asking those who's very faith demands that they never, ever compromise with evil to compromise on this issue. If that makes your goal of compromising your way to success more difficult...great.

Jill, erecting a massive sign does not produce credibility, but dishonoring a pledge to God destroys it. As Steve Curtis said, if we expose the child killing of Democrats only, we WOULD destroy our own credibility. I'm hoping you'll allow this post of our ARTL press release:

ARTLA Rebukes Dobson for Breaking his Pledge before God

Colorado Springs, CO -American RTL Action, the political 527 group, is exposing Focus on the Family's Dr. James Dobson for violating his public pledge in which he invoked the name of God, by declaring that he is voting for John McCain. ARTL members will protest Dr. Dobson at his headquarters at 8655 Explorer Drive in Colorado Springs on Thur. Sept. 4, beginning at 7:45 a.m.

On April 28, 1990 at the Washington D.C. Rally for Life on video and to hundreds of thousands of Christians, Dr. Dobson stated, "I want to give a pledge to you on a political level... I have determined that for the rest of my life, however long God lets me live on this earth, I will never cast one vote for any man or woman who would kill one innocent baby." (See pledge video at ARTLaction.com.) James Dobson has violated his pledge by saying he is voting for John McCain, a Republican who has recently authorized funding to kill some children by surgical abortion.

American RTL Action calls upon Jim Daly, the president of Focus, to take down the video of Dr. Dobson's pledge which still plays for tourists at their Welcome Center. Dr. Dobson has broken the public oath which he repeated over a period of years including on his Focus on the Family radio program in March of 1995 saying, "I am committed never again to cast a vote for a politician who would kill one innocent baby," referring to the rape and incest 'exceptions,' "which are a window to the soul of a 'pro-life' candidate," said ARTL Action president Steve Curtis.

"John McCain funds the killing of countless children," said the group's director of research Darrell Birkey, "for example by voting to allocate monies on Oct. 27, 2005 for tax-funded surgical abortion if the baby's father is a criminal, that is, a rapist." The official Senate.gov site documents McCain's Yea vote [1] on the Health and Human Services Appropriations Public Law 109-149 and the Government Printing Office documents that McCain's vote authorized funding for surgical abortion to kill an unborn child whose father is a criminal as the law states [2], SEC. 507. (a) "funds are appropriated in this Act" that includes coverage of abortion, SEC. 508. (a) (1) "if the pregnancy is the result of an act of rape or incest."

[Of course National RTL misleads Christians on Republican candidates by ignoring their pro-abortion votes; and they claim [3] that McCain: "Voted consistently against federal funding of abortion," by ignoring his votes that funded abortion; funded dissecting the tiniest children; gave millions to Planned Parenthood; etc. A NRTL 100% rating is a near-certain indicator that a Republican is pro-choice with exceptions.]

"Dr. Dobson is violating the pledge he took before God," said Birkey, "by voting for John McCain. Both the Sarah Palin distraction, and the candidate's rhetoric to Rick Warren claiming he believes that human rights begin at conception, are belied by John McCain's long tolerance of chemical abortifacients and funding of the dissection of the tiniest embryonic boys and girls."

"In violating his 1990 pledge in which he invoked the name of God, Dr. Dobson has lost the moral authority to speak for Christians," said Curtis. "He can speak for Republicans who do not fear God, but he cannot speak for the Body of Christ. Jim Daly, please remove that video of Dr. Dobson's broken pledge from the Focus on the Family Welcome Center; you dishonor the Lord as you portray Dr. Dobson as principled and as keeping his oath before God."

Last week ARTL Action unfurled the massive Sheets Of Shame abortion protest sign on a mountain overlooking the DNC in Denver. "American RTL will expose both Republican and Democratic politicians who advocate the killing of unborn children," said Curtis, who is also a former chairman of the Colorado Republican Party. And ARTL Action reminds Dr. Dobson that Jesus Christ in the Sermon on the Mount warned His followers against invoking God's name in an oath, and regardless, forbade them from breaking their word. In the New Testament the apostle James wrote, "Do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No,' lest you fall into judgment."

John McCain repeatedly votes to give millions of dollars to foreign and domestic abortion providers including Planned Parenthood. One week after pro-abortion Rudi Giuliani dropped out of the primary race, Republicans for Choice endorsed John McCain. And his Sanctity of Life campaign webpage [4] doesn't even mention the words conception, rape, incest, fertilization, nor the phrase human life amendment. Further, McCain refused to co-sponsor U.S. Senator Roger Wicker's life-saving S.3111 [5] and refuses to endorse Colorado's historic Personhood amendment initiative which is on their statewide November ballot. "McCain is as Jesus warned in Matthew 7:15," said Birkey, "a wolf in sheep's clothing, manipulating Christians into voting for someone who continues to kill the innocent preborn."

American RTL Action has a test for a Christian to rank his own loyalty to God as compared to Republican politics. A believer need only consider whether he approves of Dr. Dobson violating the pledge he made before God to increase the chance of victory for a Republican in November. As Jesus said, "No man can have two masters," yet Focus on the Family leads Christians to worship the Republican Party as an idol. American Right To Life Action urges everyone, please trust and obey God above all.

Please see the letter from Focus on the Family to us at ARTLaction.com which admits that Dr. Dobson has compromised on the pledge he made before God and then, sadly, tries to justify that blatant sin.

-------------------------------

Source URL: http://artlaction.com/release/20080903/artla-rebukes-dobson-breaking-his-pledge-god
Links:
[1] http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00281
[2] http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ149.109.pdf
[3] http://www.nrlpac.org/pdf/comparisonpiece.pdf
[4] http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/95b18512-d5b6-456e-90a2-12028d71df58.htm
[5] http://americanrighttolife.org/news/american-right-life-endorses-us-senator-roger-wickers-life-conception-act
[6] http://artlaction.com/files/DobsonPledgeLtr.pdf

Hey where's PIP:

We need a redirect.

We need to refocus on envolution, not evolution, envolutoin.

in reference to my earlier comment

its the 7th edition, not the third. Definitely worth it, readings range from Pope John Paul II to the Supreme Court Majority Decision for Roe v. Wade

Dan,
Is that by Thomas A Mappes and Jane S Zembaty?

Oops, yeah it must be. Not too many books named Social Ethics in the 7th edition...

I'm pretty sure God can handle rebuking Dobson if He feels like Dobson has betrayed Him.

MaryContrary at September 5, 2008 12:51 PM said... As a Christian I cannot support anyone who would stand by, for whatever reason, and allow even one baby to be murdered. I wouldn't support someone who would allow one baby to be murdered to save one hundred others, either.

and yet that's exactly what you're doing. It's not murder to be unable to stop something. If there's a fire in a building with five people trapped inside and you run in grab two people and run out, only to have the house explode behind you, you didn't kill those three people. It's horrible that they died, but you did what was in your power to save who you could. It's ludicrous to say that just because you couldn't save all of them(when their death was completely out of your contol) that you wouldn't even attempt to save those that you could.

Abortion is legal in the United States. Should it be? Absolutely not. But in the meantime, as we work to get our country to acknowledge the personhood of every individual, shouldn't we save who we can? We're not responsible for the deaths caused by abortion. We ARE responsible to do the best that we can with what we have. If John McCain will continue to uphold and pass laws that, perhaps while not saving ALL children, will save some, my vote for him will be a vote in the right direction.

We have two choices for President of the United States. Two choices for the direction that we will take this country. Barack Obama, who has vote for infanticide, or John McCain. Perhaps Sen. McCain is not where we want him in all respects on the issue, but he will work to save the children that he can in the country that we have in a time when abortion is 100% legal.

That's not compromise. That's action. You said that you wouldn't vote for someone who will stand by and allow children to be murdered. And yet, by not supporting McCain(which is in effect supporting his opponent) YOU are the one who is standing by and doing nothing. I'll pray for you.

I'm still looking for someone to explain to me how God would be okay with us supporting someone who is willing to kill innocent children. Murder is murder is murder. Pro-lifers willing to support McCain would also have to support him if he was willing to kill born children, or kill Jews, or lynch blacks. If you wouldn't support McCain under those circumstances, then you need to take a deep look at yourself because you really don't think abortion is murder.

McCain recently said life begins at conception and then reports that embryonic stem cell research is ok. He willfully acknowledges that life and willfully will destroy it. The older use the younger to get what they want. That is not pro-life.

Do a search for his comments on Tim Russert's show in July 2005 about Terri Schiavo. He was uninformed about her condition and basically says let's forget about her. Euthanasia is going on every day in this country but, let's not dwell on it.

Keep drinking the Republican evangelism magic juice and vote for their guy. A guy who was handpicked by the liberal media.

Wonder why the Bible calls us sheep? A few get scared and the rest follow.

Fear not! That is in the Bible.

Bobby-

I know Mappes is one of them, and my bag is across the room so you'll have to excuse my laziness, lol. Sounds right though, its a text so I cant imagine there'd be many similar titles etc.

Very good though, I'm 4/5 of the way through the chapter and about to read the majority decision for Roe v Wade, theres a reading on PBA later on in the section.

It's so tragic to see the Body of Christ act as though James Dobson is beyond reproach. He is now a liar and a hypocrit. He need's to repent. Simple.

It is totally incredible for Dr. Dobson to pledge to not to cast a vote for a politician who would kill a single baby, then break that pledge to support and man who allow babies to be aborted and also experimented on.

The compound this, Dr. Dobson said in February of 2008, this he could not and would not vote for James Dobson as a matter of conscience.

Dr. Dobson apparently has adjusted his conscience so that it is no longer a problem.

How convenient!

Jon, I absolutely do not think that Dr. Dobson is beyond reproach. I think that he is human the same and you and I, and that he makes mistakes and missteps just as all other human beings do. Being a Christian doesn't mean that we're perfect, it means that we're forgiven. Whatever Dr. Dobson's sins against God are, they are against GOD. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure that my God is big enough to handle it on His own.

I am a liar and a hypocrite as well. We all are. We all have judged where we should have loved. We have all lied where we should have told the truth. We have all remained silent when we should have spoken up, and we have all yelled when we should have said nothing.

Thankfully, God forgives and erases our sins. As Christians, we need to love and pray for our brothers and sisters who have fallen, not demonstrate outside their homes as though we are acting on God's command.

So if I understand this correctly, we want to support McCain because he may be for killing SOME children, but at least he'll be OUR pro-abort, and not someone else's pro-abort?

Either that, or we're willing to call a wolf in sheep's clothing a sheep (OUR sheep!) in order to feel better about supporting him over an undisguised wolf.

This sacrifice of some babies to save others is morally troubling to me. Explain how that is -- here take this baby, because she's worth less to me than these 5 precious babies (not from rape). I've seen "moral" arguments made on this blog that it's better to save five babies than see six die, even if we have to kill the one baby ourself. There's a moral rot being exposed here, if we're willing to accept such deals and rationalize them as "the Christian thing to do".

But on the subject of Dobson -- if he's chosen to support OUR pro-abort instead of their pro-abort, how is American Right to Life wrong for calling him a hypocrite?

What's more, he's CLEARLY violated his oath. "one unborn child" he said. McCain is FOR killing far more than one unborn child. Embryonic stem cell destruction? Yes. Roe v. Wade overturned? No (he's on record opposing its overturning -- no matter what he says now that he's counting on the votes of evangelicals). Personhood? No. How is he suddenly pro-life just because this politician has made a "promise" to us?

Should we really ALL work together to elect a pro-abort? Seriously! Dobson's working against the pro-life movement in this case, mistakenly believing a political compromise is justified by his fear of a worse political outcome. But he's signing his name to the death warrant of kids by electing someone who INTENDS to kill SOME children!

Christians HAVE to stand up against hypocrisy! If it's on their side, yes. If it's on both sides, then oppose both sides. That's what we're asked to do by God -- stand against the wickedness, don't participate in it!

James Dobson has abandoned his pledge and we need to point this out to the public whether through press releases or through civil disobedience until the church understands that it is IMMORAL and in DIRECT DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD to support any candidate that votes for or promotes the killing of even one innocent person.

McCain is pro-choice with exceptions. That is why I and others who will never bend on killing the innocent will be voting for ALAN KEYES.

McCain will accomplish NOTHING as far as advancing real pro-life legislation even if he serves two terms. Anyone that has paid attention to McCain over the years understands this.

We have 0 judges on the Supreme Court who recognize the hard core scientific fact that human life begins at conception. Or, if a few of them do recognize this, it has NOTHING to do with their opinions given on the court. As Scalia said, "As far as I know the only commandment I apply from the bench is 'Thou Shall not Lie.'"

Scalia, Alito and all other "catholic" judges were instantly excommunicated the moment they first supported a law that ends with "...and then you can kill the baby."

We must support AMERICAN RIGHT TO LIFE and never ever except or support any law that ends with "....and then you can kill the baby."

James Dobson's official statement on 02/05/2008 to the Laura Ingraham Show.

“I’m deeply disappointed the Republican Party seems poised to select a nominee who did not support a Constitutional amendment to protect the institution of marriage, who voted for embryonic stem cell research to kill nascent human beings, who opposed tax cuts that ended the marriage penalty, and who has little regard for freedom of speech, who organized the Gang of 14 to preserve filibusters, and has a legendary temper and often uses foul and obscene language.

“I am convinced Sen. McCain is not a conservative, and in fact, has gone out of his way to stick his thumb in the eyes of those who are. He has at times sounded more like a member of the other party. McCain actually considered leaving the GOP in 2001, and approached John Kerry about being Kerry’s running mate in 2004. McCain also said publicly that Hillary Clinton would make a good president. Given these and many other concerns, a spoonful of sugar does not make the medicine go down. I cannot, and I will not vote for Sen. John McCain, as a matter of conscience.

“But what a sad and melancholy decision this is for me and many other conservatives. Should John McCain capture the nomination as many assume, I believe this general election will offer the worst choices for president in my lifetime. I certainly can’t vote for Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama based on their virulently anti-family policy positions. If these are the nominees in November, I simply will not cast a ballot for president for the first time in my life. These decisions are my personal views and do not represent the organization with which I’m affiliated. They do reflect, however, my deeply held convictions about the institution of the family, about moral and spiritual beliefs, and about the welfare of our country.”

Well guess what. I'm not going to allow ARTL to p!ss on my parade. I feel closer to the majority of the pro-life movement than I have in a long time, thanks to what I see as a strongly pro-life ticket that we've-for the most part-been able to rally around.

Mr. Kyffin, again we come back to my earlier point. We are not "sacrificing" children. These children are dying anyway. Abortion is legal. The question is if we should stand by and do nothing to help the children that we can.

Why should we stand by and do nothing while children die when we have the opportunity to save some children? Sen. McCain will not harm more children. Sen. Obama will.

It's actually a pretty clear choice. Do I wish that *I* could run for President and pass a human life amendment? Absolutely. But I understand the political system that we have in place, and I understand that that is not possible right now. I'm doing what I can with my vote. What are YOU doing? Pro-life legislation saves lives. Not all lives, but some lives. Can you explain to the babies that could have been saved why you're letting them die when you could have done something?

CHChick 1:11 PM

Great post.

CHChick,

I've seen that "burning building" analogy before, and it's a common defense for incrementalism, but it holds no water.

We're talking about McCain, who IS pro-abortion in SOME cases. By supporting him, we're helping to SET the fire! We're taking responsibility (buying in) for his deeds, by voting for him!

We undermine our political clout by accepting the bone they throw at us. We prove that the GOP NEVER has to elect a principled pro-lifer, because they know that Christians will vote for a faker, so long as we have that politician's lip service.

Forget Palin -- I have great hopes for her, but she has 0% impact on McCain himself. She can become vice president and McCain could STILL decide to kill kids with federal funding and she wouldn't have a say in the world about it. She'd, in fact, have to sit quietly and support HER president, the pro-abort -- the man who gave her her job.

We now have a politician's promise in our pocket! We've been promised the world by OUR pro-abort, who says he's changed his ways. I now declare that we are guaranteed PEACE IN OUR TIME! by this little slip of paper (re: Chamberlain-Hitler Munich 1938).

Bob Kyffin

p.s. Also, Jill -- you're referring to a 2006 vote, but the release specifically talks about a 2005 vote that sounds very different from what you're referring to. You're not reading National Right to Life (or McCain) talking points again are you? They've been known to lie, you know!

"I'm pretty sure God can handle rebuking Dobson if He feels like Dobson has betrayed Him."

What unbiblical thing to say. God gave us the responsibility of rebuking our brothers who are sinning and unrepentant. God doesn't want us to wait for his ultimate rebuking someday after Dr. Dobson dies.

Proverbs 27:5
Open rebuke is better Than love carefully concealed.

xalise said:

"I feel closer to the majority of the pro-life movement than I have in a long time, thanks to what I see as a strongly pro-life ticket that we've-for the most part-been able to rally around."

HAHA!!!! That is how people "felt" in 2000 when they voted for Bush and look at how big a disaster his time in office has been for the nation including the pro-life movement!

If you love God then you will not care one bit about how close you feel to "the majority of the pro-life movement". You'll care much more about how close you feel to God and His will which is to NEVER EVER SUPPORT any person that justifies the intentional killing of even one innocent person.

CHChick said:

"We are not "sacrificing" children. These children are dying anyway. Abortion is legal."

And everytime you help to PASS A LAW that ends with "....and then you can kill the baby" you ensure that abortion will remain legal for many more years.

You "incrementalists", actually I prefer the term ABORTION COMPROMISERS, are so short-sighted that you don't seem to acknowledge that all of these laws you support that are pro-abortion with exceptions will one day need to be overturned in order to make abortion illegal.

Answer this question all of you abortion compromisers:

Do you acknowledge that every pro-abortion law with exceptions that you support will have to one day be overturned in order to make abortion illegal in your state?

Don't vote for Stalin (Obama) or Hitler (McCain). Vote for ALAN KEYES!

I'm an atheist pro-lifer. If you could pull your head out from between your cheeks for 5 seconds, you'd realize that you and you damnation-preaching buddies do not own the pro-life movement.

xalise blathered unintelligently:

"I'm an atheist pro-lifer. If you could pull your head out from between your cheeks for 5 seconds, you'd realize that you and you damnation-preaching buddies do not own the pro-life movement."

FOMBL!!!!!!!!!!!

With 99% of the pro-life movement being made up of CHRISTIANS who trust Jesus Christ for salvation I can say without any fear of contradiction that WE DO INDEED OWN THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT.

FOMBL?

McCain and Palin symbolize so much to me...they show me that I can come here and voice my concern for those I see as the unborn that must be protected (McCain's view almost exactly) and get along with the other folks here who take a harder line (like Palin). If you can't respect that, and have nothing to contribute, I have no use for you.

Full Of More Blatant Lies?

CHChick,

You ask what -I- am doing? Well, alot actually, but let's talk about Colorado Right to Life and American Right to Life.

- We're taking Colorado legislators and educating them about how it's important to support Personhood and NEVER undermine the Right to Life through careless legal language. And they're beginning to understand!

- We're keeping fake pro-lifers from getting party endorsements

- We're standing against what's now the largest operational killing center in the US, which opened over budget and behind schedule after numerous contractors walked off the job. This, though accomplished by the Collaborator's Project, was largely successful because of help from CRTL.

- The pro-life, anti-Democrat DESTROYS UNBORN CHILDREN message in newspapers and TV screens around the world!

- First Personhood measure on ANY state ballot anywhere! 100% would NOT have happened without significant moral, financial and volunteer support (and philosophy direction) from CRTL.

That's just to name a few. The ground is moving in Colorado, and things are changing in impossible ways. God is encouraging the movement here, and peoples' minds are being changed from a codependent relationship with the Republican party to a real demand that the Right to Life be respected in law -- NO MORE COMPROMISES!

So we did a 500-foot tall sign (DESTROYS UNBORN CHILDREN) to oppose Barack Obama... You think we should have been practical and moderate and only have a 200-foot tall sign to oppose McCain? (destroys unborn children) Measured response, right?

The real question is what's National Right to Life doing? Partial Birth Abortion Ban? One that doesn't even ban partial birth abortion? Read the Gonzales v. Carhart ruling -- PBA (slightly modified) is still legal up to the 9th month of pregnancy, and the justices made sure we knew it will remain so as long as they have their say.

All these pro-life laws out there (most, not all) actually ENDORSE a right to abortion! They say "abortion is a right unless" or "abortion shall be prohibited unless you do these things". These "pro-life" laws ENTRENCH "abortion rights" in law!

What am I doing? What are we doing? We're doing everything we can to wake up the pro-life movement and make you all realize the damage that's been done to us by false leadership and misleading thinking!

(besides all the great things we're accomplishing in Colorado)

"I'm an atheist pro-lifer. If you could pull your head out from between your cheeks for 5 seconds, you'd realize that you and you damnation-preaching buddies do not own the pro-life movement."
Okay. Who said we did? My first comment was actually in response to the impression I'm getting from all this. Namely that Christians are somehow betraying the pro-life movement in some of the stances we take.
Frankly, if killing only a few babies rather than a thousand or a million is the pro-life movement then it is, indeed, your movement. We neither agree with it nor want it.
But don't whine that we've abandoned, betrayed or are hindering a movement that's evil. What do you expect?

Darrell, are you honestly trying to say that the angry and bitter actions of ARTL are in anyway the marks of loving Christians? I don't know these people personally. I can only judge on the fruits of their labor, and all of their releases are dripping with contempt for someone or another. Usually someone that they COULD be working with to save children.

I have a sister (biological, not just in Christ, haha) who has continually sinned against God. She has recently divorced her first husband and is engaged to a second without Biblical reason for her divorce. My heart hurts for her. I pray for her, and I love her. I do not send out press releases about her or protest in front of her house. I will do all I can to bring her back to Christ, but her sins are between her and God. She doesn't owe me an explanation, she owes God her repentance.

Perhaps if the press release condemning Dr. Dobson seemed to be filled with any measure of Christian love, I would have a different view of ARTL. As it stands, I have difficulty acknowledging them as an organization doing God's will.

Bob, a vote for Alan Keyes, whose pro-life views I respect, will bring about President Obama. I can't live with that on my conscience. Voting for Mr. Keyes won't save children. Christians aren't allowed to be proud, Mr. Kyffin.

"fake pro-lifers"

HAHAHAHAHA. As if people need your approval to want to try and keep babies from being scraped out of their mothers' wombs. Sounds like some people are a little full of themselves...

Bobby Bambino said:

"FOMBL?"

Fall
On
My
Butt
Laughing

Christians do own the pro-life movement. Christian are a super majority. Get over it all atheists and non-Christians. Get over it.

The anger in some of these posts hurt my heart. I'm sorry if I've contributed to this spirit. Please know that my comments are honest and in a spirit of reaching out to others and coming to an understanding, even though in my frustration it may not come as such.

CHChick said:

"I have a sister (biological, not just in Christ, haha) who has continually sinned against God. She has recently divorced her first husband and is engaged to a second without Biblical reason for her divorce."

If your sister attends your church then you should disfellowship her as Paul spends the entire 5th chapter of 1 Corinthians explains in some detail. Does your church obey the directions given in 1 Corinthians 5 or does your church think it knows better and is wiser and nicer than God?

FYI - ARTL has been dealing with Dobson's lying and flip-flopping for YEARS now, even before ARTL was officially formed. There is a history behind it. Dobson needs to be called out and attention brought to his abandoning his pledge that was known as "the Dobson pledge".

I don't attend the same church as my sister as we live in different parts of the country. Thank you though for you love and prayers. It's appreciated.

CHChick, is it better to do what is right and allow a child to die or do what is evil and save a child's life?
The Christian answer, as hard as it may be to swallow, is to do what is right. Always.

Romans 3:5-9
5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, �Let us do evil that good may come� as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

Again, I speak as a Christian to what is morally right. Those who aren't Christians needn't agree. But neither should they expect I'll agree with them.

Bob Kyffin asked:

"The real question is what's National Right to Life doing?"

NRTL is busy looking for court cases for its lawyers to make money on. NRTL makes money through promoting pro-abortion laws. NRTL helps Bopp make more money so he can live a luxurious life and go to Republican platform meetings and promote using embryos as a source of stem cells as Jill reported on this blog a few days ago.

how is it evil to do what we can? we are not affirming abortion, we are working within the law of the land, which is, 100% legal abortion. Grar! There should not be an "us" or "them" in the pro-life movement. I'm an individual pro-lifer; no one should have to "take sides" when there are differing opinions of how to best accomplish saving lives.

Everything I do I approach with prayer. I'm not insinuating that anyone else doesn't... merely that you shouldn't think that I don't.

There is nothing immoral about voting for a candidate who is not completely in line with the entire pro-life platform when they are opposing someone who is unequivocally pro-abortion (and in the case of Obama, pro-infanticide). Do I wish that John McCain was consistently pro-life in all matters, that is, in the case of incest, rape, and against ESCR ? Yes! But those people who withhold their vote because McCain isn't completely in line with their beliefs is to basically give a vote to Obama and I'm afraid that they are going to be held accountable for that someday.

"Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."
(Luke 9:49-50)

I understand that pro-life purists disagree with pro-life incrementalists. Well and good. There are reasonable positions on both sides of this debate. Personally, I am an incrementalist ... but I believe that we will need both sides to prevail against the Culture of Death.

That said, picketing each other is silliness. Can you not see how the pro-choicers on this very blog are enjoying watching us fight? We are encouraging our opposition with this nonsense! You know who our opposition is, right? They're the people who have so far managed to keep the United States of America a country in which the life of an unborn child is worth less than that of a household pet.

(Kill a kitten, and you go to jail. Kill thousands of unborn children, and NARAL will laud you as a public hero.)

We should direct our energies against the Culture of Death, not against each other. If we must rebuke each other, we should do so with civility and mutual respect. We are all committed to defending Life. We simply have different ways to achieve that goal.

Can we at least declare a truce until after Roe has fallen? After that happy day, please feel free to picket James Dobson all you want. Until then, we have a much more important task ahead of us.

"how is it evil to do what we can? we are not affirming abortion, we are working within the law of the land, which is, 100% legal abortion. Grar! There should not be an "us" or "them" in the pro-life movement. I'm an individual pro-lifer; no one should have to "take sides" when there are differing opinions of how to best accomplish saving lives.

Everything I do I approach with prayer. I'm not insinuating that anyone else doesn't... merely that you shouldn't think that I don't. "

I'm sure you do. Don't doubt it for a minute. But, in the end, what you're suggesting is that we must choose between someone who allow only so many murders and someone who allow far more murders. I chose neither. In the end I will have no guilt for supporting any murder at all, rather than guilt in supporting only a few.
Further, casting my vote for a third party even works politically. The Republicans will know after this election that compromise loses votes. LOTS of votes. How many pro-lifers do you know agree with allowing a handful of exceptions? Very few! So ask yourself what in the world is the purpose of a politician taking that stance? You've already said that you wouldn't, if you were president. Clearly, he's counting on you compromising your principles. He's, in fact, taking the exact opposite route with you that you are with him.
He's doing what he can about those darned pro-lifers, allowing as many abortions as he can. He's compromising with you.
So...you're compromising on murder. I absolutely understand that this can seem like the right thing to do. It does, after all, save some lives. But it simply isn't the right thing to do.

This is a spiritual battle as much as anything. Don't let your pride be a victory for the other side.

Well, I for one, find it very kindergarten-like to hold your breath and stomp your feet in the corner as you ARTL's are doing. Let me know how much THAT accomplishes. Last time I did that when I was 5, I don't think it accomplished too much.

News flash: ALAN KEYES HAS NO CHANCE OF WINNING SO YOU MIGHT AS WELL VOTE FOR OBAMA.

Eileen, I think you're both forgetting that we are talking about murder. Unless you are willing to suggest Jesus would allow murder to take place, so long as the murderer did so in His name, then that argument doesn't work.

Naaman, I absolutely understand how you feel. But you just can't expect Christians to compromise on murder. Some will if you press, I'm sure. I will not and I can't apologize for that. I don't even want to.

" The Republicans will know after this election that compromise loses votes. LOTS of votes. How many pro-lifers do you know agree with allowing a handful of exceptions? Very few!"

Well, that's just great, Mary. Have a temper tantrum and show the Republicans how mad you are and in the meantime, Barack Obama will pass FOCA and install more Supreme Court justices who will legislate from the bench and our country will suffer in more ways that you can even count but you will have made your point!

well said, Naaman.

Actually...I think I got Eileen and Naaman confused.
Oops. Apologies. :D

Eileen, with all respect this is no temper tantrum. It's a moral decision and it's very clear to me.

Naaman said:

"Can we at least declare a truce until after Roe has fallen?"

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!

If Roe v Wade is overturned there will still be MANY pro-abortion laws in states around the nation that alleged "pro-life" groups helped to pass into law. Like the "parental notification" law, the "interstate commerce" law and the "hospital residency" law that the pesudo-pro-lifers in Indiana are trying to get passed.

Jesus also said to render unto Caesar so until we have someone to vote for who is completely pro-life then I will vote for the one who will do the least amount of harm.

"How many pro-lifers do you know..."

A lot. As I said before, get your head out, get out of your immediate circle of friends, out of your church, out of your security bubble every once-in-a-while, out in the real world, you will find that not everyone is a hard-liner like you.

Eileen: I'm kind of astounded. There aren't any third party candidates who are 100% pro-life?

Mary, with all due respect, it is pride at work here when people shirk their civic and grave moral responsibility and in essence allow the worst possible choice to come into power.

Elizabeth showed all her foolishness by saying:

"News flash: ALAN KEYES HAS NO CHANCE OF WINNING SO YOU MIGHT AS WELL VOTE FOR OBAMA."

And when Jesus Christ was waging His campaign most thought He had no chance of winning. Especially when He was dying on the cross.

We will not vote for Stalin or Hitler. When given Stalin and Hitler as our choices we will instead vote for someone else and not those two.

God will condemn you for voting for any candidate that supports abortion as Obama and McCain do. I'd bet my soul on it.

I'd be careful making bets with your soul if I were you Zeke. Losing will turn out bad for you. But hey, if that means wherever I go, I don't have to see YOU, then GO AHEAD!

I understand that Alan Keyes is running as a third-party candidate. The problem is that they never win. That is how we got Bill Clinton -- because Ross Perot ran as a third party candidate. Didn't we almost end up with Al Gore or John Kerry because of Ralph Nader? I would vote for Alan Keyes in a minute if I thought that he had a snowball's chance in you-know-where! But it never works.

"Mary, with all due respect, it is pride at work here when people shirk their civic and grave moral responsibility and in essence allow the worst possible choice to come into power."
What are you talking about? I happen to think compromising on this issue is shirking my civic and grave moral responsibility. I thought I'd shown that fairly well. Why do you continue to say this is pride and petulant stomping of feet? This is simply refusing to support murder, even a lesser quantity.

Ezekl -- I base my decision on what I have read and heard from an encyclical written by Pope John Paul II on civic responsibility and from Fr. Frank Pavone who is head of Priests for Life. You are not compromising your eternal soul by voting for the person who has a reasonable expectation of winning and who will do the least amount of harm to the Pro-Life cause.

JOHN MCCAIN'S OWN WORDS ON OVERTURNING ROE V WADE:

"I'd love to see a point where Roe vs. Wade is irrelevant, and could be repealed because abortion is no longer necessary. But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe vs. Wade, which would then force women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations."

Because Mary, third party candidates never win. I want to do what is within a reasonable realm of possibility to make sure B. Obama does not become the next president. Do you really want to put him in charge of our country?

John McCain is a good man, and to compare him to Hitler is DISGRACEFUL. YOU are the ones who should be ashamed of yourselves.

Well, Ezekl, he hasn't said that recently. I believe that he is taking his constituents seriously these days. He did say just recently that he believes that life begins at conception.

Yes, everyone, can't you see that Mary isn't prideful, but simply dutiful, responsible, morally superior, and pious?

*rolls her eyes*

Can you even hear yourself? Do you even see what is wrong here?

Ezek13:19 wrote:
If your sister attends your church then you should disfellowship her as Paul spends the entire 5th chapter of 1 Corinthians explains in some detail. Does your church obey the directions given in 1 Corinthians 5 or does your church think it knows better and is wiser and nicer than God?

Wow, I think I just had an epiphany. Did you seriously just tell CHChick to throw her sister out of the church?

Wow. I thought Christians like that were only bad stereotypes.... :(

I have a recommendation for you:
http://www.amazon.com/When-Christians-Happen-Good-People/dp/1578564905

Or just sing that old song, "And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love...."

Mary, I am speaking strongly on this issue because I have encountered fellow Catholics who assume the same air of moral superiority in regard to voting for a candidate who is not completely pro-life. I almost feel that they are more responsible than Catholics who vote for blatantly pro-choice candidates for the outcome of this critical election. Because it is those people who withhold their vote this way who very well may determine who is our next president and if it is Barack Obama then God have Mercy on us.

Naaman,

I think I may just have to get that book and read it!

"Ezekl -- I base my decision on what I have read and heard from an encyclical written by Pope John Paul II on civic responsibility and from Fr. Frank Pavone who is head of Priests for Life. You are not compromising your eternal soul by voting for the person who has a reasonable expectation of winning and who will do the least amount of harm to the Pro-Life cause."
Okay, you used the extreme (compromising your eternal soul) to make your point. Let me use the extreme to make mine. What if McCain becoming president meant that 1 million babies were murdered while Obama as president meant 1 million plus 1? Would you then still support McCain or would you then decide it's time to look for a third candidate to support?

Well, go look at abortion stats under Republican leadership versus Democratic leadership. You'll find my example here is a little off. Abortions have actually declined since about 1990, the numbers being higher during Reagan and Bush Sr's presidency. Why do you think McCain represents some major difference? In all seriousness, the Republicans haven't accomplished anything more or less the the Democrats. It's way past time to look elsewhere.

With all respect I don't see why you support McCain and act as if Obama is so horrible. I see little difference between the two. I don't want either, so Obama is no motivator to get me to vote Republican.
And yes, I realize I make it sound as if abortion is the only thing I'm considering when it comes to whom I vote for. It isn't. It does however disqualify some for consideration altogether.

Eileen claimed:

"I base my decision on what I have read and heard from an encyclical written by Pope John Paul II on civic responsibility"

No wonder. John Paul II and is not a good source and neither is the US COnference of Catholic Bishops.

You certainly value being on a winning team more than you value not compromising on God's eternal command You shall not murder.

And I challenge you to quote JPII anywhere where you claim he says something like "When the mainstream media and political parties support Stalin and Hitler as their candidates then just vote for the one you think will do the least amount of damage."

FAnd I challenge you to quote JPII anywhere where you claim he says something like "When the mainstream media and political parties support Stalin and Hitler as their candidates then just vote for the one you think will do the least amount of damage."
Posted by: Ezek13:19 at September 5, 2008 3:11 PM

That is simply ridiculous.

Jesus promised the Holy Spirit as our advocate and that "the gates of Hell will not prevail" against the Church. I believe Jesus and therefore I trust what JP II has taught.

I came in here originally in the hopes of explaining why so many Christians have become disillusioned with the pro-life movement, no longer seeing it as pro-life but as a compromise.
I see some mocking, others insisting this is prideful and still others freaking out that analogies involving Hitler are used. I wonder if I'm doing more harm than good because no one really cares why Christians are disillusioned.

You guys cannot even understand how gleeful this is making us pro-choicer, you guys bickering like this. Hello, 8 years of Obama.

In further response, if both candidates are equally anti-life then that is the time to sit out of an election but that isn't the case in this election.

Questions for Mr. Bob Kyffin; (1)If Pharaoh had chosen one of the mid-wives, to be his VP, wouldn't he be a morally better pick, than Obama? (After all, Pharaoh wasn't for killing ALL the kids) (2)Who do you think will have legitimized more killing of innocent children, when the history books, of this world, are closed? Pharaoh or McCain?

Mary, if I misunderstood then I am very sorry. I thought that you were asserting that you were not going to vote for John McCain because he is not fully consistent with the pro-life platform.

Eileen said:

"Well, Ezekl, he hasn't said that recently. I believe that he is taking his constituents seriously these days. He did say just recently that he believes that life begins at conception."

And this shows how easily duped you are by another lying Republican politician.

Elizabeth said:

"John McCain is a good man, and to compare him to Hitler is DISGRACEFUL."

Let's compare. Under Hitler @ 6 million Jews were murdered. Under McCain somewhere between 5-6 million American babies will be murdered during the 4 years he serves as president.

Looks like a pretty accurate comparison to me!

Naaman said:

"Did you seriously just tell CHChick to throw her sister out of the church?"

God commanded it. Just read 1 CORINTHIANS 5. Its only one chapter 13 verses long, but I am sure you can read that much.

FYI - Those of us who refuse to support someone like McCain who will murder some innocent human life are MORALLY SUPERIOR to those who have no problem supporting someone that will kill some innocent human life. This is what actual moral superiority looks like. We that accept 0 murders are morally superior to those who accept 1 million+ murders each year.

Think about it.

"Mary, if I misunderstood then I am very sorry. I thought that you were asserting that you were not going to vote for John McCain because he is not fully consistent with the pro-life platform."
No, that's correct. I also explained why that mattered to me, in that it means there are some babies that he's willing to allow murdered.

Yes, Erin, because B.Obama can not win exclusively on his political platform which is in reality a far-left, radical socialist agenda that is anti-life, anti-family, devoid of hope and beneficial change.

I have a feeling that people like Zeke are the reason many people turn pro-choice.

I also think we should differentiate between morally superior and self-righteous. Obviously I believe I'm agreeing with God here, not with Mary (that's me). So, yeah, I'm specifically seeking the morally superior position (i.e. superior to my own and everyone else's moral position), which would be God's moral position.
Call me crazy but that seems like a good idea. ;)

"You guys cannot even understand how gleeful this is making us pro-choicer, you guys bickering like this. Hello, 8 years of Obama."
Posted by: Erin at September 5, 2008 3:17 PM

Okay, Mary -- Erin is helping me to make my point.
I believe that God is us giving a chance with the addition of Sarah Palin on the ticket. He writes in straight lines with crooked pens to quote Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Before you decide for sure -- consider that your lack of a vote may be indirectly responsible for electing one of the most virulent anti-life politicians our country has ever seen.

So how will you feel Mary, when even more babies die under Obama because you didn't vote for the more pro-life candidate? I'm just trying to understand how you reconcile that aspect of it. Because SURELY, more babies will die under Obama than McCain, but you'd rather THAT happen than to vote for McCain? I think this is why people see it as your own pride.

So who does Bob Enyart and others suggest prolife American's vote for? Obama? Spoil their ballots?
What DO they advise?

Focus is Crystal clear on McCain.....Note the date.

Tom Minnery in Christianity Today, August 27, 2008
http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctpolitics/2008/08/minnery_disappo.html

What about John McCain? He’s struggled to talk about his own faith.

He does. I’m not sure of the extent of his saving faith if there is one. We as evangelicals would have hoped to hear a lot more. I hope those who are Christians who are around him are talking to him. He usually talks about that Vietnam soldier’s faith. It loosened his bonds, scratching a cross in the dirt, I’ve heard that about six times. He does seem to have viable Judeo-Christian worldview, which means that things of God are significant, the church needs to be vigorous and independent, he knows the difference between right and wrong, good and evil.

What objections do evangelicals raise about him as a candidate?

He’s inconsistent on the abortion issue, given his view of the stem-cell research side of it. He has caused great mischief for a lot of organizations including our own who try to do issue advertising to let people know how the politicians stand during the election. We can’t do that because of McCain-Feingold. Finally, the Supreme Court knocked that part of it out, but there’s an increasing number of regulations that we have to deal with, so we don’t appreciate that. I think that his joining the gang of 14 to take control over the Supreme Court justices was ineffective. Obviously we’d like a candidate that supports the Federal Marriage Amendment.

Tom Minnery, Focus on the Family

Yes, momma liz. If I didn't know people like you, and Janet, and PIP, and Lyssie, and HisMan, and BB, and many others here, I'd be about ready to run screaming into the night. These people make Patricia look like an open-minded free spirit (no offense).

Ezekl, John McCain has said that he will men on the Supreme Court who will adhere to the Constitution and not legislate from the bench.

He has also changed his mind about issues involving illegal immigrants and drilling for oil because he listened to the people! I believe he has gotten a lot of the pro-life message from the same.

Eileen said:

"I believe Jesus and therefore I trust what JP II has taught."

So, in other words, you don't know if JPII ever taught what you claim he taught making it OK for you to vote for McCain who is not pro-life? Is that what you are saying? Because, if you can't give some evidence to back up your claim that he taught that its good to vote for a guy that allows some abortion over a guy that wants all abortion to be made legal then you are just making stuff up.

Are you making this stuff up or did JPII actually teach what you claim he taught? Give the evidence if there is any.

Zeke,

What do you care ANYWAY?

You hate Catholics, and everybody knows that.

Eileen said, "He has also changed his mind about issues involving illegal immigrants and drilling for oil because he listened to the people! I believe he has gotten a lot of the pro-life message from the same."

That is because it is election time. He just wants your vote.

He will do well with a Dem senate and congress because he will get all the liberal stuff he likes through.

His immigration stance and Obama's via their websites are almost identical.

I don't want a guy who listens to the fickle people, I want someone who knows right and wrong and stands on principle.

The people want whatever benefits them without thought for their neighbor. People are inherently selfish. You aren't a leader by "listening" to the people. If the people have to tell you what to do, then you might as well be Bill Clinton and focus group every decision you make.

I also think we should differentiate between morally superior and self-righteous. Obviously I believe I'm agreeing with God here, not with Mary (that's me). So, yeah, I'm specifically seeking the morally superior position (i.e. superior to my own and everyone else's moral position), which would be God's moral position.
Call me crazy but that seems like a good idea. ;)
Posted by: MaryContrary at September 5, 2008 3:28 PM

Like I have stated, I believe Jesus when he said that He would send the Holy Spirit as an advocate. So when I need some moral guidance then I can trust what I learn from JPII or now, Benedict XVII
because Jesus doesn't lie. I guess we are at cross purposes, Mary because we each feel that we are being lead by God.

Jill,
It was a pleasure to meet you in Denver a week ago. I noticed that not many people have commented on the facts given here:

"On April 28, 1990 at the Washington D.C. Rally for Life on video and to hundreds of thousands of Christians, Dr. Dobson stated, "I want to give a pledge to you on a political level... I have determined that for the rest of my life, however long God lets me live on this earth, I will never cast one vote for any man or woman who would kill one innocent baby." (See pledge video at ARTLaction.com.) James Dobson has violated his pledge by saying he is voting for John McCain, a Republican who has recently authorized funding to kill some children by surgical abortion.

Shouldn't we give Dr. Dobson a pass on this?
He is a top Christian leader so he shouldn't be held to this unreasonable standard of not lying to God and the masses in Public. In fact, shouldn't all Christians be able to invoke God's name in oaths and not be held accountable? Think about it, there really isn't any standard that we should all be held to. Christianity is all about love about doing what seems right at the time even if it is wrong because letting less people be murdered is way better. This tough love thing isn't really love and you will never find examples of tough love in the Bible like this horrible protest. The 2 things I know for sure from God's word are that it is okay to compromise on God's command "do not murder" and that Christian leaders are not to be rebuked or corrected. Another biblical fact is that people are basically good and if you look at all our good Christian leaders, you would find that they are so good and smart that abortion is actually going down. Did you know that less than a million kids are being slaughtered every year now! This is a cause for great celebration! Most Republicans really are Christian and would never lie even though they are keeping it secret because thats a wiser way to function in our system and ensure a win! Can't we all just get along? Thanks for letting me share.

Can you just imagine if Jesus had said "Sure, I'll hang on that cross...AFTER everyone agrees to believe in me...until then, I'll just leave you to your own devices."

He hung on that cross even tho He knew He would not be getting a 100% return on His investment.

He hung for those He COULD save, and hoped that eventually ALL would be saved.

It's one thing to say you have a plan and a conviction and another to Lord it over those of us who sweat blood fighting the same fight.

You are describing heaven. We are living in reality.

God Bless you and your cause, but you seriously need to come down off that high horse and apologize to every prolifer that has ever stood out in 30 below zero weather for hours, trying to save lives, to every prolifer who is willing put aside their religious differences and join the cause because it's right.

You want to play that game...Christians are the only true pro lifers????

I got news for you...protestants sold out to abortion a long time ago and are only now joining the good fight. You embraced birth control, divorce, dissent from the Mother Church and abortion...

If any one has the right to say they own the pro life movement it's the Catholic Church...but of course, She never would. Because it's not about who's right...it's about what's right.

There is no limit to what a man can do if he doesn't care who gets the credit...Charles Edward Montague

Eileen further showed her lack of political understanding by saying:

"Ezekl, John McCain has said that he will men on the Supreme Court who will adhere to the Constitution and not legislate from the bench."

YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!!!!!!!

Right now we have ZERO Supreme Court justices that recognize that human life begins at conception! What do you think is gonna happen in the next 4 years, that 5 Supreme Court justices will die somehow, and then McCain will replace them with justices that recognize that human life begins at conception and the personhood of the preborn?

Good grief! this Supreme Court justice argument is the biggest balogney I ahve ever heard next to the vile "its a state's rights" justification.

Eileen also said:

"He has also changed his mind about issues involving illegal immigrants and drilling for oil because he listened to the people! I believe he has gotten a lot of the pro-life message from the same."

His changing on drilling for oil is believable and hopefully that would extend to ANWAR through Palin's influence, but no one can believe for a second that he is really any different when it comes to illegals and protecting our borders.

Did you miss McCain pandering to illegals when he spoke before La Raza a month ago? You are aware that La Raza is Mexican for "the race", right? And that it is a pro-illegal immigrant group?

McCain is a liberal Democrat that just happens to have membership in the Republican Party.

Okay, Mary -- Erin is helping me to make my point.
I believe that God is us giving a chance with the addition of Sarah Palin on the ticket. He writes in straight lines with crooked pens to quote Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Before you decide for sure -- consider that your lack of a vote may be indirectly responsible for electing one of the most virulent anti-life politicians our country has ever seen."
How is my lack of a vote responsible for anything? Isn't your vote for McCain responsible for every baby murdered with his approval?

"So how will you feel Mary, when even more babies die under Obama because you didn't vote for the more pro-life candidate? I'm just trying to understand how you reconcile that aspect of it. Because SURELY, more babies will die under Obama than McCain, but you'd rather THAT happen than to vote for McCain? I think this is why people see it as your own pride."
I would suppose I'd feel the same as you would feel for those babies murdered under either McCain or Obama. Grieved. The only difference being that if McCain is elected, you'll share in that guilt.
I've already explained how I "reconcile that aspect". I refuse to be held responsible for murders I'm not responsible for. I'm certainly not about to let that false accusation lead to me actually supporting murder. That'd be crazy.

So who does Bob Enyart and others suggest prolife American's vote for? Obama? Spoil their ballots?
What DO they advise?"
Well, I can't speak for them but I say cast your vote for a 100% pro-life candidate. If we win, great. If not, then just as any other lost election you've shown the losing side exactly why they lost. Compromise only elects a compromise. If you want, then I suppose I have no suggestion. Either McCain or Obama will do, really.

Ezek13:19 wrote (concerning expelling one's sister from the church):
God commanded it. Just read 1 CORINTHIANS 5. Its only one chapter 13 verses long, but I am sure you can read that much.

It's funny that you think I haven't read the Bible. I'm not a pastor, and I don't have any degrees in theology, but I've certainly read the Bible a time or two.

However, just to be sure, I re-read 1st Corinthians 5 at your urging. Time spent in the Word is never wasted, after all. :)

You're way overstating your case. Firstly, you don't know CHChick's sister, CHChick, or their church. You know only one thing about the situation, and based on that, you urge CHChick to expel her sister from the church. No, no, no.... One must not make those sorts of judgments on nothing but hearsay. Paul came close in his recommendation, but at least he knew the Corinthian church. You know even less than that.

(Also, you're probably not in the same league as Paul. Please don't be offended; I'm not in Paul's league either.)

Are there sins that should cause us to break fellowship with each other? Sure. Flagrant sin can bring shame upon the Body of Christ. This is especially true when someone is using his Christian faith as a cover for decidedly un-Christian behavior. The Catholic practice (not always enforced, sadly) of denying Communion to openly pro-choice leaders is a good example. Even then, though, I would point out that the Catholic Church relies on the local priests and bishops to make that painful decision. And they don't do it lightly.

How does Jesus want us to handle conflicts within the Church:
"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."
(Matthew 18:15-17)

Have you followed this process with James Dobson? If so, how did it go?

"God will condemn you for voting for any candidate that supports abortion as Obama and McCain do. I'd bet my soul on it."

WOAH WOAH, and once again WOAH.

This is NOT Christianity. And seriously, I would not be "betting my soul" on ANYONE'S salvation. This is just...wow.

I think you need to take a look at what Christ has done. I'm honestly shocked to hear such a thing coming from someone who professes Christ as savior.

anon was me

Go MK and Lauren!

Oh, Ezek... I don't know why you are so angry, but you're not representing the most loving Friend I've ever known.

Let's compare Hitler and McCain. Hitler killed people. At his command, millions died.

Our very own holocaust, abortion, is completely legal. There are good men and women trying to change that, but in the meantime, it is what it is and we have to do what we can.

With Hitler, people died BECAUSE of him.
With McCain, people would die DESPITE him.

Get the difference?

In the end, comparing Hitler to McCain is an ignorant and hateful use of time.

Xalisae, I won't pretend that I don't hope you'll come to know God, but just know that most of us are pretty cool folks. ;)

Bob Kyffin, 1:45p, wrote: "p.s. Also, Jill -- you're referring to a 2006 vote, but the release specifically talks about a 2005 vote that sounds very different from what you're referring to."

Bob, I wrote, "his vote on a 2006 appropriations bill," which was correct. He may have voted in 2005, but it was to approve appropriations in 2006. What in that bill are you saying "sounds very different" than what I referred to?

If Obama gets elected we will have about 1.5 million abortions next year. On the other hand if McCain is president we will have only 1.5 million abortion next year.

McCain seems less extreme because he has mastered the language he needs to pull the wool over the eyes of the pro-life Christians who are some of the most easily fooled people on earth.

mk, thank you, we can always count on you to say it better!!!

Lolita, sitting home on your comfy couch eating bon bons again? :)

mk said:

"It's one thing to say you have a plan and a conviction and another to Lord it over those of us who sweat blood fighting the same fight."

Yeah, right! "Sweat blood"? Really!? You shouldn't tell outright lies on here mk.

If you think obeying God's command You shall not murder and our promoting its consistent practice on here is "lording it over you" (which doesn't make any sense gramatticly speaking) then you may as well just quit.

You hit upon a deep truth when you asked:

"You want to play that game...Christians are the only true pro lifers?"

Yes, we are since we are concerned not just with life on Earth, but with ETERNAL LIFE. So, yes, in reality we are the only true pro-lifers.

EILEEN WATCH

How many hours or days until Eileen gives us a reference from JPII that shows he taught what she claims he taught.

"I base my decision [to vote for McCain who allows some innocent life to be murdered over Obama who wants more innocent life to be murdered] on what I have read and heard from an encyclical written by Pope John Paul II on civic responsibility".

Jill! I don't think that I have ever posted while you have been posting at the same time but let me thank you for all of your wonderful and arduous work! I came to your site after hearing you on Bill Bennett last June.

John McCain would NEVER lie to get a vote. The republicans would NEVER pick Palin as the running mate to manipulate simple minded Christians to vote for them. You people are unbelievable! Republican politicians are nothing like those evil dumbocrats! Fear is the best way to decide how to act. When you think of Obama be very fearful! He will destroy this country! Personally, my fear of Obama informs my vote for McCain. I stand with James Dobson on this one! Who cares about oaths to God by Christian leaders anyway; I am afraid of Obama and I would pull the lever for McCain right now if I could!

Dr. Dobson based his original pro-life pleage and the teachings of Jesus Christ rather than what any pope said.

That's what makes breaking the pledge so serious.

Ezek,

Funny how you skipped right over that whole divorce, birth control, dissent, abortion part...

The point was...you joined up later. The movement was already going on. Now atheists and agnostics are joining up.

Of course the phrase "lording it over us" doesn't make sense to you. You can't hear way up there on your throne.

You also didn't comment about Jesus dying for EVERYONE, and not waiting til we all agreed to the terms first.

Of course you didn't. You're too busy tooting your own horn, putting everyone else down, and grabbing the limelight.

Pathetic.

And you don't even see it.

It's hard to argue with someone that knows everything.

CHChick said:

"Let's compare Hitler and McCain. Hitler killed people. At his command, millions died.

Our very own holocaust, abortion, is completely legal."

And the war that Nazi Germany waged was not legal under German laws? They elected Hitler democratically you know.

McCain could make abortion ILLEGAL across the nation and shut down all abortion clinics with one executive order if he wanted to, but he doesn't want to because then he wouldn't be able to continue to use the ongoing abortion holocaust as a political football to use in duping dumb Christians.

You said:

"
Xalisae, I won't pretend that I don't hope you'll come to know God, but just know that most of us are pretty cool folks."

By "cool" you apparently mean weak and accepting of politicians that condone killing the innocent.

I think I'll bow out of this conversation. I expect this from the other side, but coming out of the mouths of alleged Christians is just too sickening for my tastes.

It's a shame too, because much of what you do is good. If only you didn't sully the whole thing boosting your egos and putting down others.

You wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the Catholic Church. Really sad.

by "cool" I was being friendly and saying that most christians understand how to show the love of Christ, regardless of where someone is at in life. Kind of like what Jesus did, ya know?

Honestly, the impression I'm getting here, hand over fist, is that some Christians just aren't welcome at this table. So be it.
I'm beginning to see it's a table I don't want to sit at, really.

The Truth is hard for some to take.

Yes, Mary, if you can't have everything your way, stomp off and have a tantrum. You seem to be doing that beautifully already.

No Mary,

What you are getting is not that we are opposed to dialogue or the way you guys are proceeding on the pro life front, but that you have come on here and insulted many of us...either for being Catholic, Non-religious, or not doing it "your way"...you came in on the attack and when you were attacked back you wonder why.

Yes, this is a table. It's what we do here.
Sit down as people to people, discuss our views, treat each other with respect...

What you have done is come in here and call us all useless, hypocritical, unchristian sinners.

Now how would you like us to respond? By passing the salt?

Jill,
Lolita, Ezek 13:19, MaryContrary, Darrell B and Bob Kyffin have made some brilliant arguments here. I hope you will take some time to ponder the numerous and horrible effects of Christians who compromise on murder and publicly break their oaths to God based on fear not faith.

mk said:

"You also didn't comment about Jesus dying for EVERYONE, and not waiting til we all agreed to the terms first."

The timing of when Jesus died for the sins of the world has nothing to do with what we're talking about. His act was not based on anyone voting for Him to do it. He did it willingly APART FROM any other person's desire or will save His Father's. Its a free gift, not an administration that makes and defend's laws on Earth that results in the murder of 1 million+ American babies each year.

Voting for pro-abort John McCain is NOT like accepting Jesus Christ as savior mk. Jesus Christ is not = with the Re-publican party. That is what you are saying - get with the Republican Party and its pro-abortion candidates now before they do what they ought to be doing which is defending innocent life. And that will never happen because the pro-life movement won't put the pressure needed to influence the repubs to change.

WE ARE MORE LIKE JESUS CHRIST because WE, unlike yourselves, are obeying God in the face of tremendous darkness and opposition by the blind religious leaders who like you promote voting for the least pro-abortion choice among the two candidates the major parties and media put out there.

God is NOT working through the Re-publican party. Its finished and will die out after McCain extends the damage that Bush has done if he is elected.

How many hours or days until Eileen gives us a reference from JPII that shows he taught what she claims he taught.

Read Evangelium Vitae. (Hopefully I spelled it correctly!)

Dont forget condemned to hell too, MK!

That one was a gem as well.

"McCain could make abortion ILLEGAL across the nation and shut down all abortion clinics with one executive order "

It would be very difficult because it would not clarify an existing law, and is not expressly stated in the constitution. Also, congress could override the order.

There's also the fact that this is simply NOT how our government works. Althought our governement has been hijacked by the Judicial branch legislating from the bench, I do not think we should excuse legislation from the white house. We must outlaw abortion through the means layed out in our constitution, not try to circumvent democracy.

God is NOT working through the Re-publican party. Its finished and will die out after McCain extends the damage that Bush has done if he is elected.
Posted by: Ezek13:19 at September 5, 2008 4:27 PM

What damage has President Bush done? I think he has done a considerable amount for the pro-life movement. God works in very mysterious ways, do you "pretend to know the mind of God", Ezekl?

Lauren, so glad you made that point.

I really can't wait to vote for McCain/Palin now! Woo hoo!

NoMurderIsOk, 4:26p, wrote: "Lolita, Ezek 13:19, MaryContrary, Darrell B and Bob Kyffin have made some brilliant arguments here. I hope you will take some time to ponder the numerous and horrible effects of Christians who compromise on murder and publicly break their oaths to God based on fear not faith."

Sorry, NMIO, this isn't just theory to me. You likely know I've held an aborted baby. I'll save every one I can when I can. That's not compromise.

Bobby, Elizabeth, Eileen and others have also made some brilliant arguments. I hope you too will take some time to ponder how insulting others and causing division can have horrible effects on the pro life movement. Until you learn some respect, you might find your names in the newspapers, but I doubt you'll find them in the Book of Life.

In today's Gospel, Jesus tells his followers that they must take up their cross and follow him. Peter is scandalized at the thought of a suffering Messiah. Sometimes we want a faith that shouts down anyone who dares to disagree. But would it profit us to gain that power at the expense of a multitude of fragile souls? Patience and tolerance may be part of OUR cross...Diane M. Houdek

lauren said:

"This is NOT Christianity. And seriously, I would not be "betting my soul" on ANYONE'S salvation. This is just...wow."

When I use the word condemn I am using it in the same way that Paul used it in Romans 3:8.

And [why] not [say,] "Let us do evil that good may come"? -- as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Th