And Obama reinforced the idea that he did this intentionally by following it up with the "old fish" comment. At first I thought this was all a terribly unartful remark and a botched joke from Obama, but now, I'm not so sure.

Seems to me that it makes a lot of sense if he was intentionally calling McCain an old fish and Palin a pig with lipstick. The crowd "got" the joke, that's for sure - they cheered way too exuberantly for nothing but a tired old expression.

Regardless of whether or not he did it intentionally, this is a huge faux pas for Obama. Either he called Palin a pig on purpose, and that's ridiculously sexist, or else he was too stupid to realize that making a joke about a lipsticked pig and an old fish would be interpreted as an attack on Palin and McCain, respectively.

Implying.

;-)

Anyway, the crowd's wild response if this was a non-Palin insult indicates that THEY thought he was referring to Palin. Either that, or Obama's fans cheer at weird points in a speech.

The art of referring "with cover" is something Michael Moore has perfected to an art form. Obama resorts to this now and then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTJs0VRJLO8

...and clearly with the porcine/picean remark.

The McCain camp responded, which they probably shouldn't have.

I'd say you're right on both counts, rasqual. With McCain as the old fish, together with the cheering crowd at the "lipstick on a pig" remark, it really, really looks bad for Obama.

And McCain's people should have shut up and let the story run through the media without saying anything. McCain getting involved just gave Obama a chance to counterattack.

Can someone tell me which came first?...This comic or Obama's speech saying the same thing?

Great question, Bethany. I think the MSM should look into that. Did Obama plagiarize this cartoon, just like he plagiarized other people's speeches in the past? Plagiarism seems to be a problem with Obama and his running mate.

And if Obama used that line before Toles drew his cartoon, why is Toles using Obama talking points in his cartoons? Seems to me that that's pretty lame and incompetent.

But, of course, the MSM is too busy "vetting" Sarah Palin to look into any of this. Maybe after they're done looking under every rock in the entire state of Alaska to see if they can find any dirt on Palin, they can bother to take a few moments to look into potential plagiarism by Obama (again).

Never mind, I've got my answer.
http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlDC/west_wing_reportage/rnc_thinks_obama_stole_from_toles_93933.asp

Plagiarism seems to be a problem with Obama and his running mate.

Sure does...I guess they really don't have any original ideas!

WOW, You'd think Obama would know better by now.

"Lipstick on a pig" is an old saying. John McCain himself even used it to describe Hillary Clinton's health plan earlier this year. It wasn't sexist then and it's not sexist now.

Hey when Palin was mayor she made rape victims pay for their rape kits. So for the victim to have enough evidence to send their rapist to prison they would have to pay $1200 to be able to collect evidence.

http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2000/05/23/news.txt

Yep. You can tell she really cares about women. At least rich women who don't "ask" to be raped.

"We would never bill the victim of a burglary for fingerprinting and photographing the crime scene, or for the cost of gathering other evidence, Knowles said. Nor should we bill rape victims just because the crime scene happens to be their bodies."

Well it doesn't actually belong to the woman, it belongs to God. You can't bill God so... (and they certainly wouldn't want to bill the rapist!)

Once again, Obama proves how unoriginal, inarticulate, and desperate for intelligent and accurate subject matter he really is.

It's just so laughable to listen to this fool speak.

Barack Obama wants comprehensive sex education taught to kindergarten school children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVLQhRiEXZs

I see reality showed up just in time to hook us up with the DNC talking points. So, who or what is the "old fish" Obama referred to, reality?

Jess, do you have any proof that any rape victim from Wasilla was ever charged for a rape kit? Furthermore, where's your proof that Sarah Palin even supported such a policy? The article talks about billing the insurance companies of the victims, not the victims themselves.

JESS, 10:02p: Stop spreading LIES. That article was not about Palin, it was about the Wasilla police chief. And he specifically said his goal was for the criminal to pay for the rape kits.

Grow up and debate honestly, Jess. You should be ashamed of yourself.

John,

Good point. That article didn't even mention Palin's name so I was a bit confused. Plus, is taking a rape kit considered a medical procedure? It's done in a hospital by medical personell, so they might bill the victim's insurance companies. I don't really know, but if it's something medically done, it would make sense to bill the insurance companies.

“You can put lipstick on a pig,” he said as the crowd cheered. “It’s still a pig.” “You can wrap an old fish in a piece of paper called change. It’s still gonna stink."

Does anyone actually believe this wasn't planned in advanced? It's offensive and the point is to generate deniable outrage to hijack the narrative and put his own spin on the last news cycle. The media are carrying his water big time.

If that rape thing is true, Jess, I find it highly disturbing. Now, if it's something being skewed and twisted, like making people who make false accusations of rape and their tests come back negative pay back the cost of the kit, I'd say "right on, Sarah" and give yet another finger wag to an attempted smear merchant.

America's women (and men) should watch Barack Obama in the Democratic presidential debate just before the New Hampshipre primary.

The condescension and contempt Obama showed toward Hillary Clinton could be cut with a knife.

Ah, the truth is out before I can even finish a post. If this isn't absolutely insane, I don't know what is.

I think from now on I'm just going to randomly scream terrible, baseless accusations about Joe Biden (because, in case everyone has forgotten, Sarah is only the VICE presidential nominee, her equivalent on the democrat ticket is Biden, not Obama).

Joe Biden said he was going to mass last weekend, but he really skipped it and visited a brothel instead!

I did a quick Google of Jess' rape kit charge --- it is amazing to look at the smear tactics and it's very appearant if you look at the hits. All the stories are from today and are posted on the usual lefty sites and other weird little nooks and crannies. They seem to hook to a Salon article and there is no reference to Palin in it. In fact there is nothing about her and the kits. I wish I had a bit more saavy to see exactly which of the Obama team dreamt this one up... I'm sure someone will.

When will all these fools realize that each new false story and outright smear is just another hole in the bottom of the Obama boat? Normal people, normal voters respect fair play and the smears show that the dems aren't playing fair. So go ahead and keep shooting yourselves in the foot -- but believe me it feels much better when you stop.

No, on second thought, just keep it up we could use a big win to get some congressional coattails!!!

This is evidence that Barack Obama's campaign is falling apart. The leftist looneys are out of the bag and the verbal diarrhea is uncontrollable now.

Anyone notice how the Clinton's have been stunningly silent?

They don't want to be associated with Obama after he gets wiped out in November.

This will position Hillary for a run in 2012 with a new Democrat Party which will be more conservative and probably closer to being pro-life that we can now imagine.

Now I feel badly about what Jess said. If she had given a real reason to dislike Palin, at least I could respect that...but no longer.

I think Jess needs to apologize for spreading an out and out lie. Lets see if she does it.

By the way Jess...everytime the left makes up accusations, they make Palin look like a beleaguered hero.

What is wrong with you?

Hello hypocrites!

You bemoan abortion but have no problem supporting these jackasses that send people off to war to die. You applaud when innocent women and children are killed in the name of 'freedom'. I'd also like to know why this nurse didn't seek medical treatment for this baby supposedly 'aborted alive'...seems she contributed to his death by doing nothing. I know this comment won't last a minute but how you people look in the mirror in the morning after giving the rah rah to the murderers in the White House and the murderers McCain/Palin that may inherit it is beyond me. Jesus must be SO proud of you guys!

Awww...what a cute troll.

Ah, the truth is out before I can even finish a post. If this isn't absolutely insane, I don't know what is.

I think from now on I'm just going to randomly scream terrible, baseless accusations about Joe Biden (because, in case everyone has forgotten, Sarah is only the VICE presidential nominee, her equivalent on the democrat ticket is Biden, not Obama).

Joe Biden said he was going to mass last weekend, but he really skipped it and visited a brothel instead!

Posted by: xalisae at September 9, 2008 10:56 PM...............................

Let's drop the pretended misinterpretaions Jill likes to present and get to facts.
Biden has a strong record in advocating legislation concerning women and children. He was the author of the Violence Against Women Act.
As mayor or governor, what has Palin done or even uttered to address domestic violence? Why didn't she have her ex bro in law arrested for tazering her nephew when it happened? Why did she wait until her sister was seeking a divorce years later to speak of it? She didn't have the guts to speak out? She found nothing wrong with it until it became a weapon? She cares about whatever is expedient for her to care about? What kind of person is she?

I don't know about other people, but over the course of my relationships, I try not to go around airing my dirty laundry to other people. Stuff like that does tend to come out in the process of divorce, and it's understandable that upon finally hearing such things, a family member might act upon that new knowledge.

I don't know about other people, but over the course of my relationships, I try not to go around airing my dirty laundry to other people. Stuff like that does tend to come out in the process of divorce, and it's understandable that upon finally hearing such things, a family member might act upon that new knowledge.

Posted by: xalisae at September 10, 2008 1:33 AM

..............................

Palin isn't other people. She is an elected official sworn to uphold the law.
According to Palin she knew about the tasering at the time it happened or her testimony would have been redundant years later. Either she lied about knowledge of the incident or she simply ignored her nephew's abuse. Which redeems her character in your eyes?
Liar or uncaring?

Maybe her sister asked her not to say anything at the time because she wanted to try and get her at-the-time-husband some help and save her marriage? maybe that didn't work and he remained abusive so the marriage broke up and seeking action for past abuses became a legitimate move? Stranger things have happened, and not knowing the sister's side makes all the difference.

Hello Cameron,

"Hello hypocrites!

You bemoan abortion but have no problem supporting these jackasses that send people off to war to die. You applaud when innocent women and children are killed in the name of 'freedom'. I'd also like to know why this nurse didn't seek medical treatment for this baby supposedly 'aborted alive'...seems she contributed to his death by doing nothing."

Suppose everything you say here is true and that these things are indeed just as bad as the things we "bemoan." All that shows is that, as you mentioned, we would indeed by hypocritical. But that does not address any argument we make or anything we say. It's a form of ad ad hominem. In fact, one could turn this around and say to you

"You bemoan war but have no problem supporting these jackasses that slaughter human beings in the womb. You applaud when innocent fetuses are killed in the name of 'choice'."

See, there is no substance to that argument. So even if we are hypocrites, that doesn't even make what we're saying wrong; it just shows that we're inconsistent. Now of course, one of the problems with your assumptions is that abortion and war are morally equivalent acts, or at least we should see them as morally equivalent. But like I said above, even if they were, all that shows is that we're hypocritical. It does nothing to invalidate our points. God love you.

Hello hypocrites!
*
You bemoan abortion but have no problem supporting these jackasses that send people off to war to die. You applaud when innocent women and children are killed in the name of 'freedom'. I'd also like to know why this nurse didn't seek medical treatment for this baby supposedly 'aborted alive'...seems she contributed to his death by doing nothing. I know this comment won't last a minute but how you people look in the mirror in the morning after giving the rah rah to the murderers in the White House and the murderers McCain/Palin that may inherit it is beyond me. Jesus must be SO proud of you guys!

Hello Carmen.

Phooey!

You bemoan abortion but have no problem supporting these jackasses that send people off to war to die.

Let's here from one of those people the jackasses SENT to war...(I won't even bother pointing out that they aren't SENT, they VOLUNTEER)

hat tip to Hisman for the video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4fe9GlWS8

"...liptstick on a pig...."

This particular epithet, from someone who had a Muslim father and another Muslim step-father -- someone who went to an elementary school filled with Muslim children. And he chooses, "pig?"

John McCain's video response:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZd_Y_D-RaA

Good point, Arlen. To Obama, that would be a particularly hateful insult.

Oh, and my husband has been "sent to die" twice now. I don't know exactly how that works. Please explain it to me, Carmen?

Hmm. Our pastor's brother attends Palin's church (knows her parents well), and his cousin is a close friend of Todd Palin's.

Apparently, those who know Sarah best are a bit amused at the army of dirt-diggers that's descended on Alaska. They're not worried, mind you -- just amused.

Lawyers stepping in moose poop. Yeah, that's amusing to think about. ;-)

Has anyone else noticed (and I DO NOT mean anything by this, it's just a weird trick that my eye plays everytime I see it...)that Obama Biden looks so much like Osama Bin Laden?

Again, I'm NOT commenting on the validity of the similarity, just the fact that I have to keep rereading it...

testing...

The left wing loons don't seem to notice that none of the nasty mud they are slinging at Sarah is sticking. It's all falling off and coming back to them. Shame on them all.

Well, Doyle,

We've always said that Truth will out in the end, and that WE have TRUTH on our side...

I was really angry before, but now I'm just sort of sad. This is just a clear example of the abortion issue. Deny, changed definitions, close your eyes, cling to your lies no matter what...it applies to both abortion and Obama.

So much anger. So much hate. But I believe that it comes from fear and pain. Just like with abortion.

Abortion is so clearly wrong. But they refuse to see it. Obama is so clearly a "magician" but they refuse to see it. It's really sad. How desperate people are to cling to this stuff.

We're not always right about everything. I know that. But I can't imagine what it must be like to live in the shoes of folks like Amanda Marcotte...so very unhappy. So angry. So afraid.

Even more disgusting is the thought that BOTH of the "analogies" (pig with lipstick AND old stinky fish) were meant as digs against Palin as a woman. I know no one even wants to go there, but there is a history of these kinds of "fish" comments made about women. Particularly the male gay community love to make fish comments about women, to demonstrate their revulsion at the thought of a woman's genitals.

Sorry to be so gross, but that's what I took from it having been the victim of these types of comments when I and another female friend decades ago had the nerve to visit a gay bar. You would have thought we had gills and targets on our backs from the vitriolic comments that were made to our faces through clenched teeth by passersby in that nightclub. They DID NOT want us there...

From FR

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2078854/posts?page=52#52

To: KayEyeDoubleDee

These three YouTubes show a nasty little trick that Barack Obama incorporated into his stump speech back when he was getting hammered in the Democrat Debates. He did this time after time, and denied it afterwards.

Obama Gives Hillary The Finger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DygBj4Zw6No

Obama Gives Hillary Clinton "The Finger"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n31VwNbTIVI

Obama gives Hillary the finger!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69JVgf0ioq8

These are three different clips of three different speeches. This was his standard stump speech. Still he denied it. The reporters following his campaign saw him do this over and over again, and they accepted his denial.

Now he denies this. But note the hooting and hollering from the crowd after the "lipstick on a pig" remark. They know full well what Obama was talking about, and so do we.
52 posted on 9/10/2008 3:56:37 AM by gridlock

Just like back then when my friend and I visited that gay bar, guys (gay OR straight) resent it when a woman arrives and steals the show...

Obama's "lipstick on a pig" reference is to the way McCain-Palin has cosmetically altered their message to one of change, when there are really the ugly Bush policies of the last eight years beneath the façade.

The only insult was the one Ms. Palin told about herself. She's the one who characterized herself as a pitball with lipstick.

yes, a woman characterizing herself as tough and agressive is obviously an insult...

Lol Jill, debate honestly? Alright, let me just go pick up a copy of the National Enquirer...

Um, she was mayor when this was happening. It seems as though when actual work should be done she steps aside and lets others deal with it. Not really what you would want in a Vice President. And so what if they wanted the criminals to pay for it. What if there wasn't a conviction? And this is the only situation police make the victim foot the bill for a crime. They never proposed to make anyone involved pay for evidence collected from a burglary.

"Just like back then when my friend and I visited that gay bar, guys (gay OR straight) resent it when a woman arrives and steals the show..."

Um... could it be that those men where at a gay bar to enjoy the company of other men and not women?

And what were you doing in a gay bar?

Jess, we were there to meet a friend who happens to be gay for a drink.

Although I don't approve of the attacks on Palin, I must point out that Hillary Clinton has been the butt of many a joke before, and the far right always complained when people got upset on her behalf.

this is outrageous! Now he's calling Sarah Palin a pig? what a jerk..then directly after that he called McCain a rotting old fish.

"Um, she was mayor when this was happening. It seems as though when actual work should be done she steps aside and lets others deal with it. Not really what you would want in a Vice President. And so what if they wanted the criminals to pay for it. What if there wasn't a conviction? And this is the only situation police make the victim foot the bill for a crime. They never proposed to make anyone involved pay for evidence collected from a burglary. "

So basically we've got you a)grasping at straws, and b) throwing some non sequitor mud around c)dismissing the ACTUAL facts and d) falling back and stomping your feet that you're "still right" and e) make an unsubstantiated claim involving burglary.

Flailing would describe your argument well.

Sally: "He was the author of the Violence Against Women Act."

...again, known to men everywhere as the Stop Violence Only if It's Against Women While the Approximately 50% of Victims Who Happen to Be Male Can Go Screw Off Act.

Let's vote in someone who will protect ALL people from abuse.

You'd be signing a different tune if you were ever raped in Alaska Lauren. Though I think that is unlikely I see why you would just want to bury your head in the sand and ignore this.

Jess, considering it's the rapist who would be responsible for the bills, I'd be just fine with it.

In fact, I'd be thrilled to pieces if they started charging the people who break into houses for the costs they incure. Home owners insurance often leaves holes that the home owner is forced to fill in.

Make criminals (literally) pay for their crimes. Sounds good to me!

I totally agree, Lauren! Very well stated.

Jess, considering it's the rapist who would be responsible for the bills, I'd be just fine with it.

Would you be comfortable financially coercing women to press charges? I like the sound of "make criminals pay," but pragmatically it seems worrisome. I mean, a lot of women are not thinking too clearly after a rape. If there looms the possibility that they will be financially responsible for the cost of the rape kit, should they choose not to press charges (or should they press charges and lose), they might just not go to the hospital at all. And that's something you really do need to do as soon as possible after an assault like that, for obvious reasons. I mean, what if a woman decides a few days later, once she's had a moment to collect her thoughts, that she's prepared to press charges, but the rape kit doesn't yield enough evidence by then so she can't?

I don't like the idea of women not pressing charges for sexual assault, but I certainly understand why it happens, and I'm not comfortable financially coercing them into behaving differently. Not least of all because it could backfire and result in fewer women going for rape kits in the first place.

I'd be more comfortable with something like, whoever currently covers the costs continuing to do so, and then going after the rapist in a civil suit following a criminal trial, or something. That way the criminal is paying if possible, but the woman isn't taking a financial risk or being pressured in any way by going to the hospital for help as soon as she can.

Alexandra, I agree that the costs should be recouped after the fact. I actually don't know who usually pays for rape kits, but it would be interesting to see what the standard protocol is.

Regardless of this, I think that we can say that Palin (or more specifically the police chief) was trying to do a good thing to make rapists pay, not to somehow punish women.

It was blatantly a common idiom and not a slur of any kind, except with the most laboured deliberate misreading.

The fact that this sort of desperate, tenuous tripe is all McCain-Palin have is again just indicative of why they're going to lose on Tuesday.

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