This requires a murder charge! ! ! I don't care what Barak Obama thinks, this Gonzalez person needs to be charged with murder.

I remember reading this story, probably here or on operation rescue. Its just horrible. At least Baby Shanice can get a proper burial now. :(

Lord, Forgive us and our Nation, for we don't know what we do.....

You know, it kind of still baffles me why in the hell someone would actually do this.

I mean, yeah, she owns abortion clinics. And yeah, abortion clinics kill babies.

BUT

A baby comes out, gasping, and kicking and the first thought is: throw it in a bag of bleach?!!!

REALLY?!!

Frankly, I just don't understand. The baby comes out alive, you see it trying to breath, kicking, it's so tiny and vulnerable, and just wants someone to help her because she's not ready to be out here yet, and....

she gets thrown in a bag of bleach.

:(((((

Sweet Shanice. I am so sorry but I know where you are dear baby.

Forgive us, Lord.

Now the authorities who failed to act share the responsibility for what happened to that baby.

What a wicked, shameless society we live in.

Hal,

This reminds me of a docuementary on PBS about John Crow laws in the southern states. An older black gentleman reminisces about the time he went to vote and was required to read before he would be allowed to cast his ballot.

The poll worker presented in him with a Chinese language newspaper and asked him if he could read it.

The black man said, 'I cant read it but I can tell you what it said. Aint no black man votin here today.'

This is not a commentary about race, but about injustice and the arrogance of those who hide behind the law, 'abuse of power under the color of authority'.

Barbarians do these kind of things for the same reason an old hound dog licks his ..... because he can.

Now excuse and equivocate all you want, you can not change erase that image.

kbhvac, I hadn't commented on this thread. Why did you address that to me?

Hal, Erin, Pretty in Pink, and the other pro-aborts--

What is your response to this travesty? Do you still think abortion is a right that has no victims? Do you think this baby did not suffer? Do you think this BABY deserved to be treated like garbage?

All legalities aside, the very essence of what makes us human, is the very human instinct to protect the innocent. When we fail to do that, we relinquish our humanity and civility and descend to realm barbarism.

I'm pretty sure PIP is not a "pro abort."

Hal,

Because, I wanted to 'round up the usual suspects'.

And I apprehended and incriminated myself in the process.

Forgive me, for presuming, for prejuding, for even thinking that I am capable of thought. I am beginning to understand the difference between manslaughter and murder; a crime of passion as oposed to one of calculated malice and forethought.

Jill,
What ended up happening in this case? I tried to get the updated information, but it looks like the clinic was stripped of its license. Then the daughter of the owner took over it under a new name and the clinic is off and running again. From what it looks like Gonzales and Senises were never charged w/ murder!

Why wasn't the federal Born Alive Protection Act used to file charges against these two women?

Probably because abortion providers think they are ABOVE the law.

Hal,

Seriously, I was wrong to judge you. I was wrong for not forgiving and forgetting what you have written to which I chose to take offense even though it was not addressed to me specifically. I was wrong to address my emotional outburst at you. I do not know how to elocute any better than that.

yor bro ken

This story reminds me of why I get so upset when people say they want abortion legal.

kbhvac, okay, all is forgiven.

What is your response to this travesty?

Vicki, I think it's terrible.

This summarizes the entire abortion industry.

Maybe Belkiz Gonzales will be Health and Human Services secretary under the Obama administration.

Nice that's you've recognized that there will be an Obama administration

The medical examiner called the remains a "body." Law enforcement officials and those supporting abortion rights please take note: if there is a body there is a person. Last I looked the laws of our great country defined and enshrined into law the rights inherent in personhood. Whomever was responsible for this horrendous crime should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

That poor little baby... I have held fetal demises (I worked in a Catholic hospital) and I cannot even imagine the evil heart that could choose to throw a baby, no matter how small, struggling to breathe into a bag of bleach.

Vicki-

What makes you think I'm a "pro-abort"?

I don't know what kind of human being you have to be to callously throw a newborn baby into a bag of bleach. WTF

Yeah, what kind of scumbag throws a baby into a bag of bleach? Real humanitarians leave newborns to die in a closet. In fact, I hope we can make someone like that president.

John, if you have evidence that Obama threw a baby in a closet to die, I'll vote for McCain and send him $100.

hal,

John, if you have evidence that Obama threw a baby in a closet to die, I'll vote for McCain and send him $100.

How about guilt by association?

Obama's pastor friend, Rev. Wright, was on the Board of the same (Christ) hospital in Oak Lawn, IL that Jill worked at where Born Alive Babies were placed to die in a soiled linen closet. How does a Reverend, in good conscience, sit on the board of a hospital that does abortions?

I'm not a big fan of "guilt by association."

Janet

Two abortionists ago (we're on our 3rd in Lincoln) we had an ELDER from a Presbyterian church that was the abortionist. AN ELDER! Someone who believed in Jesus but obviously had never read the passage about "whatsoever you do to the least of my people, you do unto me"

Obama supports abortion, whether they are performed while in the womb or out of the womb.
Obama is as guilty of throwing this poor child into a bag of bleach as the person who did it. Just as All those who support abortion rights are guilty of every single abortion ever performed.

There will be no justification for those who didn't participate but supported abortion.

Hell is a real place and it awaits all those who do not repent.

There is a little town called "Hell" on Grand Cayman. I've been there. Wasn't so bad.

Well, we know that Obama wouldn't "interfere" since calling in a doctor to assist the living defenseless little human would only, in his words, "complicate" that original decision by the "mother" which was, of course, to kill the child...any which way that could! Once you declare any human life as less equal than your own, why, you authorize yourself and those who believe as you do to do anything inhuman to him/her. And...eventually, they'll come after you.

"Real humanitarians leave newborns to die in a closet. In fact, I hope we can make someone like that president."

That's change we can believe in !!!!!

That's change we can believe in !!!!!
Posted by: Jasper at October 7, 2008 10:05 AM

That's no more effective when you do it than it is when McCain does it.

Janet: How about guilt by association?

This is what is hurting McCain. He was firmly for Bush Jr's plan to privatize at least part of Social Security. Yesterday, the Dow Jones average of 30 Industrial stocks had gone down 33% since last year's high. Would've been a great place to have that Social Security money, eh?

And, Phil Gramm is the co-chairman of McCain's campaign. This is the guy whose legislation laid the groundwork for the tens of trillions of Dollars in debt that are crippling the economy, and which provided for no regulation of the vehicles for building up the debt.

Wow. That "Born Alive" bill sure made a big difference!!

THIS ISSUE MUST GET OUT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!!! Please Spread This Far and Wide!!!! It is believed Obama is an “illegal alien”!!!!! http://www.obamacrimes.com/ Obama is NOT QUALIFIED to be US President!!!! This is a very real and pending Issue. It Must be Spread Far and Wide!!!! According to the outstanding Federal Lawsuit, it is quite clear the Obama is hiding something very very critical to the outcome of this election and he can't produce his birth certificate. The lawyer in the case obviously see this and is relentlessly pursuing this matter. Please everyone.....spread this issue far and wide. Voters need to know about it. Inform all republicians, send it to Sean Hannity, inform radio and the newspapers. The American people demand that Obama produce his real birth certificate to prove he is a natural born citizen of the US and is qualified to run as President.

Hal,
Off topic...

Doug does not believe that there is Objective Moral Truth. He believes that all morality is subjective.
That nothing is objectively "WRONG" nor is anything objectively "RIGHT".

I believe that there is Objective Moral Truth and that it is called "Natural Moral Law".

What do you believe?

www.obamacrimes.com This is very relevant and serious issue. It must be brought to light. There is strong compelling evidence that Obama is NOT a natural born citizen and is therefore NOT qualfied to be President. Obama is attempting to keep the issue buried because Obama cannot prove he is a natural bron citizen. Please people! This issue must be brought to light and Obama must be removed from the ballot. Obama is NOT a natural born citizen and there is reason to believe he may an illegal alien.

PIP,
I am with you on that! It is really hard to fathom a baby that is kicking and gasping for breath being shoved into a bag of bleach and then onto the roof.

Too hard to think about sometimes.

Carla, I know :(

Do you people ever read what you've written? From a WND article about the incident: "Police had been summoned to the business after an 18-year-old went for an abortion, but the baby was born while she waited,"

Which would make the "body" the result of a miscarriage, not an abortion. And, since the cause of death was listed a extreme prematurity.....

There is a little town called "Hell" on Grand Cayman. I've been there. Wasn't so bad.

Hal,

There is a little town called "Hell" on Grand Cayman. I've been there. Wasn't so bad.

Ever been there during a hurricane?

Phylo,

Miscarriages are NOT born alive...duh.

THIS ISSUE MUST GET OUT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!!! Please Spread This Far and Wide!!!! It is believed Obama is an “illegal alien”!!!!! http://www.obamacrimes.com/ Obama is NOT QUALIFIED to be US President!!!! This is a very real and pending Issue. It Must be Spread Far and Wide!!!! According to the outstanding Federal Lawsuit, it is quite clear the Obama is hiding something very very critical to the outcome of this election and he can't produce his birth certificate. The lawyer in the case obviously see this and is relentlessly pursuing this matter. Please everyone.....spread this issue far and wide. Voters need to know about it. Inform all republicians, send it to Sean Hannity, inform radio and the newspapers. The American people demand that Obama produce his real birth certificate to prove he is a natural born citizen of the US and is qualified to run as President.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v07tPpQE6w0

James: Go sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here...

Does James get banned for spamming?

(or rehashing old lies?)

Hal, that's true. I thought we deleted spam, here.

These are not lies. There is strong compelling evidence that Obama is NOT a Natural Born Citizen. This issue must be brought to light.

I urge all those who are against Obama on this board to spread this story Far and Wide.

James,
At this point in the election, aren't there bigger fish to fry?

Miscarriages are NOT born alive...duh.
Posted by: mk at October 7, 2008 12:04 PM

check the wiki - the terms are used interchangeably -
awaiting apology.

mk,

Did you see this?

SYNOD FATHER SUGGESTS ENCYCLICAL ON BIBLE

Says Interpretations Vary Too Much

VATICAN CITY, OCT. 6, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Just a few minutes after the synod on the word of God got underway today, a proposal surfaced: that Benedict XVI write an encyclical on the interpretation of Scripture.

The request was presented by Cardinal Marc Ouellet, archbishop of Quebec, in the first general conference of the assembly. The Pope presided over the conference, which was attended by 244 synod fathers.

After some brief remarks from the Pontiff and then from Cardinal William Levada, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Ouellet, relator-general of the synod, read out the "relatio ante disceptationem" (report before the discussion).

The cardinal noted that theology faculties and exegetes sometimes do not coincide with the magisterium's vision of the Bible.

In this scenario, he said, there is "an excessive variance of interpretations. […] The internal connection of exegesis with the faith is no longer unanimous and the tensions increase among exegetes, pastors and theologians."....... For the rest of the article, see: http://www.zenit.org/rssenglish-23828

Miscarriages are NOT born alive...duh.
Posted by: mk at October 7, 2008 12:04 PM

check the wiki - the terms are used interchangeably -
awaiting apology.

Posted by: phylosopher at October 7, 2008 1:26 PM
-------------------------------------------------

You're going to cite WIKI as a source? You'd get laughed out of the healthcare community. (Huge warnings in my continuing education classes about never using WIKI as a source as it is neither reputable nor given any editorial review for fact checking.

Let's go over a few details... a miscarriage is termed in the medical community a "spontaneous abortion".

Secondly, in the paperwork above it is stated that the chid was born in the "recovery" room... which could also be termed a "waiting" room, as they have to wait quite a while for the saline to work and expel the expected fetal demise. Therefore, it would not be a spontaneous abortion, aka a miscarriage, it would be an abortion triggered by the abortionist, in this case truly merely an abortionist, as Belkis Gonzalez is not a physician.

Third, in terms of practicality, it doesn't really matter as the child was born alive, took breaths (hence the lungs floating upon autopsy), was thrown into a bag of bleach and hidden on the roof where the body was invaded by maggots. This is a clear cut case of infanticide. Why is no one in jail over this???

Elisabeth, this was not a saline abortion. Saline abortions are no longer performed. Thanks for playing.

Elisabeth, this was not a saline abortion. Saline abortions are no longer performed. Thanks for playing.

Posted by: Erin at October 7, 2008 1:50 PM
----------------------------------------------

Okay, I'll concede that is a possibility... I'm relatively new to understanding abortions and how they are performed as I've never participated in nor undergone one... and I have chosen to work almost exclusively at Catholic hospitals precisely so that I don't have to be exposed to them. (I work very hard four nights each week to keep babies alive...)

That being conceded, however, it changes my points not one whit, given that WIKI is still not a credible source, a miscarriage is called also a spontaneous abortion, a recovery room can also be called a waiting room, this was not a spontaneous abortion, it was a caused abortion, and... most importantly...

This child was born ALIVE... it took BREATHS.... it was MURDERED.

Someone should be in jail.

But apparently you think that the murder of an infant who managed to breathe is a "game" as you state that I am "playing". Believe me, I am not playing one bit, this is extremely serious.

You're going to cite WIKI as a source? You'd get laughed out of the healthcare community. (Huge warnings in my continuing education classes about never using WIKI as a source as it is neither reputable nor given any editorial review for fact checking.

Let's go over a few details... a miscarriage is termed in the medical community a "spontaneous abortion".

Secondly, in the paperwork above it is stated that the chid was born in the "recovery" room... which could also be termed a "waiting" room, as they have to wait quite a while for the saline to work and expel the expected fetal demise. Therefore, it would not be a spontaneous abortion, aka a miscarriage, it would be an abortion triggered by the abortionist, in this case truly merely an abortionist, as Belkis Gonzalez is not a physician.

Third, in terms of practicality, it doesn't really matter as the child was born alive, took breaths (hence the lungs floating upon autopsy), was thrown into a bag of bleach and hidden on the roof where the body was invaded by maggots. This is a clear cut case of infanticide. Why is no one in jail over this???
Posted by: Elisabeth at October 7, 2008 1:40 PM

Neither this board nor WND are part of the medical community - wiki is considered an adequate and contemporaneous source of the colloquial - and WND is nothing if not colloquial.

Two, my quote is copied from the 10/7 WND article on the incident. Nothing about a waiting room, but "while she waited" so, either a) WND reporters are incompetent writers, or, b) the 18 y o pregnant woman was having a spontaneous abortion aka a miscarriage of a non-viable fetus.

and 3) mk was still insulting about something that she was incorrect about.

Elisabeth,

I'm so glad you're here! I'm working on my prereq's to get into the nursing program at my school! I hope to be in pediatrics or labor/delivery. I hope you stay around!

Who else is offended that they refer to Shanice as "Maggot Baby?"

Sometimes I'm disgusted at my own kind.

Who else is offended that they refer to Shanice as "Maggot Baby?"
Sometimes I'm disgusted at my own kind.

Posted by: Jacqueline at October 7, 2008 4:50 PM

I am. Poor judgement, IMO.

Which would make the "body" the result of a miscarriage, not an abortion. And, since the cause of death was listed a extreme prematurity.....

Posted by: phylosopher at October 7, 2008 11:58 AM

MK was not being rude, nor does she owe you an appology. Why don't you try to reading the entire paragraph you copied and pasted:

"It reported the mother had had three pregnancies, "one abortion, one miscarriage and this birth," referring to the body of the girl found in a decomposed state in July. Police had been summoned to the business after an 18-year-old went for an abortion, but the baby was born while she waited, and she observed the little girl breathing before a business worker came and put the baby in a biohazard bag. "

Now you said this:

"Which would make the "body" the result of a miscarriage, not an abortion. And, since the cause of death was listed a extreme prematurity....."

And the article said this:

"An autopsy showed the little girl was born alive, but died from "extreme prematurity," but the circumstances surrounding the death have prompted authorities to call for a criminal prosecution. "

The article also says this:

"Yet witnesses say the baby was breathing on her own at the abortion business, which would bring into application the federal Born Alive Infants Protection Act, a requirement that infants who are alive following abortion procedures deserve the full protection of the law. "

Exactly how is this a miscarriage?

oh...oopsy, did you also forget to read this in the article:

"The case developed after the 18-year-old reported to the A Gyn Diagnostics abortion business to complete an abortion, officials said. The autopsy report said the baby girl with black hair and brown eyes apparently was healthy at the time of her birth. But the report noted that babies at 22 weeks have no historical chance of survival. "

hmmmm...to complete an abortion. How interesting. Exactly how would this be a miscarriage if she was there to "complete" the abortion?

Elisabeth, this was not a saline abortion. Saline abortions are no longer performed. Thanks for playing.

Posted by: Erin at October 7, 2008 1:50 PM

Think again. First state I looked up tonight. Ohio. 73 saline abortions in 2006.

http://www.odh.ohio.gov/ASSETS/CE94E347513140F59F59772F7E09CB49/2006AbortionReport.pdf

Page 29

And if you want to keep looking at Ohio

2005 - 64 saline abortions
2004 - 65 saline abortions
2003 - 80 saline abortions

hmmm....now lets move on to New York -

2005 - 35 saline abortions
2004 - 33 saline abortions
2003 - 30 saline abortions
2002 - 288 saline abortions
http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/vital_statistics/2002/table25.htm

Then there are Intrauterine Instillation abortions that include Saline or prostaglandin (a fatty acid derivitive which causes uterine contractions - same idea as saline, not as dangerous to mother - same affect on fetus). There were 3,330 in Massachusetts alone. and 4,574 in 2004 with 44 out of 52 area's reporting.

I would say that Elisabeth's assessment was correct. That "it would be an abortion triggered by the abortionist" - we just don't know what chemical was used. Either way, the baby is forced to be unnaturally and prematurely born regardless of the gestational age and the baby's womb is engulfed in an unnatural substance that causes the fetal demise.

I love you Valerie!

I feel the love!

;-)

Love ya back.

PHYLO,

I was not disputing that the terms miscarriage and spontaneous abortion are interchangeable. I was disputing whether either one results in a living human being.

If the baby lives, it's a premature BIRTH. If the baby is dead, you can call it either spontaneous abortion OR miscarriage. But as this child was ALIVE, it was neither.

If the baby was born dead after 20 weeks it would be a still born, as miscarriages happen before that.

If the "duh" insulted you, I'm sorry.

Valerie and MK... thank you very much. I appreciate the extra information and the excellent furthering of the argument I set forth. As I've worked several night shifts in a row in the Pediatric Emergency Department, I feel I don't always articulate my ideas thoroughly.