Obama lied about turning aside as abortion survivors died

The 3rd and final presidential debate finally saw the abortion issue broached... barely, but enough to force Barack Obama out of his fox hole to attempt to explain away his opposition as IL state senator to the Born Alive Infants Protection Act.

McCain was weak on the draw, but at least he provided an opening:

Sen. Obama, as a member of the IL State Senate, voted in the Judiciary Committee against a law that would provide immediate medical attention to a child born of a failed abortion. He voted against that.

And then, on the floor of the State Senate, as he did 130 times as a state senator, he voted present.

debate 5.jpg

Then there was another bill before the Senate Judiciary Committee in the state of IL not that long ago, where he voted against a ban on partial-birth abortion, one of the late-term abortion, a really - one of the bad procedures, a terrible. And then, on the floor of the IL State Senate, he voted present....

I don't know how you vote "present" on some of that. I don't know how you align yourself with the extreme aspect of the pro- abortion movement in America. And that's his record, and that's a matter of his record.

And he'll say it has something to do with Roe v. Wade, about the IL State Senate. It was clear-cut votes that Sen. Obama voted, I think, in direct contradiction to the feelings and views of mainstream America.

Obama responded by first falsely stating Born Alive "said you have to provide lifesaving treatment and that would have helped to undermine Roe v. Wade."

LIE. BAIPA simply stated all born alive babies became legally protected persons immediately upon birth, no matter what gestational age and no matter if unwanted abortion survivors.

Obama voted against this straightforward human rights legislation 4 times (aside from his "no" counted "present" vote), stating as the sole state senator speaking against it on the Senate floor in 2001 it would be "unconstitutional" to declare very premature abortion survivors persons because "the equal protection clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an anti-abortion statute."

In other words, if premature abortion survivors were declared legal persons, they couldn't be legally "kill[ed]" - Obama's word.

Obama further obfuscated his radical record of abandoning abortion survivors to die in hospital soiled utility rooms by adding "there was already a law on the books in IL that required providing lifesaving treatment..."

debate 2.jpgLIE. IL abortion law to this day only protects abortion survivors their abortionist deems fit to live. The potential for subjective assessments in these cases is clear to all but Obama. In fact, Obama opposed closing this loophole by voting against legislation to mandate a second doctor be present at deliveries of all live abortion survivors to independently assess their viability.

Obama not only opposed IL's BAIPA, he took a leadership role to kill it. His website still contains an ABC News quote from the IL Planned Parenthood CEO at the time stating "Obama approached her" to strategize to defeat BAIPA as well as the Partial Birth Abortion Ban. Barack Obama actually sought out PP to help him defeat a bill protecting abortion survivors.

Finally, for 4 years Obama lied about his record opposing BAIPA. In 2003 he voted against an identical version that passed 98-0 in the U.S. Senate and for which the pro-abortion group NARAL even expressed neutrality.

He then purported several times, as recently as August 16, 2008, that the bills were not identical and he would have supported the IL version had it been the same as the federal version. This was yet another LIE, which Obama's campaign finally had to recant after his actual vote tally from the IL General Assembly archive was posted online.

I'm beyond disgusted that Obama continues to repeat the same lies without MSM investigating and denouncing him. We'll see what tomorrow brings.

[Top photo courtesy of the Associated Press; bottom photo courtesy of AFP]


Comments:

How about the biggest lie of all Jill. He said he would vote for a ban on any kind of late term abortions as long as there was a health exception for the mother. How does that jibe with his speech at the Planned Parenthood rally where he said the first thing he would do as president is pass the Freedom Of Choice Act (FOCA), which would strike down all late term abortion bans nationwide. He is such a liar.

Posted by: truthseeker at October 15, 2008 11:30 PM


I know, you're absolutely right. I could write an entire post on Obama's PBA lies tonight but am spent.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at October 15, 2008 11:34 PM


Lies, schmies. The kool-aid drinkers don't care. They want their guy elected, so lying? It's all just part of the day's work.

Posted by: DeeL at October 15, 2008 11:38 PM


I am so sickened that John Mcain didn't fight BO more on this... He seemed out of his element.. I was really hoping he would be more of an advocate...

Posted by: landy at October 15, 2008 11:38 PM


Jill-

He obviously doesnt consider the undermining of Roe v Wade a lie, nor does he consider it a lie there was already a law on the books, as he included both of those statements in "The Audacity of Hope" on page 133 (I literally just read it). He said on face value he thought the bill seemed reasonable until he reached the above conclusions.

I disagree, but thats true of myself and any politician, no one holds all my views. However I do understand the sentiment he claimed tonight about health of the mother, but also agree with McCain that it has been stretched to a breaking point in some cases.

Posted by: Dan at October 15, 2008 11:39 PM


I'm glad McCain at least said what he did, but I wish Nobama's message to PP had been mentioned as well, namely that the "first thing he would do" is sign FOCA.

Posted by: Joanne at October 15, 2008 11:39 PM


I really liked how McCain added that the "health of the mother" exception is taken advantage of. Go John.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at October 15, 2008 11:43 PM


McCain voted for the 2003 Sense of the Senate that re-affirmed Roe v. Wade, as did most Republicans. He was ABSENT for several of the key amendment votes of that legislation. How convenient of him. I have copies of the legislation, as well as the votes broken down by party, so there is no point in spinning this. McCain--and the majority of the Republicans in Congress--are not reliable regarding Roe v. Wade. You have been abandoned by your party. Even Palin believes that there is a right to privacy inherent in the Constitution. Well, OK, we all know Sarah Palin doesn't understand her talking points, but the larger truth remains: you are mere tools of the Republican Party.

Posted by: K at October 15, 2008 11:52 PM


The most disgusting thing about politics is that voters continuously trust their politician. No matter how many lies that Obama spouts about abortion, his economic plan, his own views regarding racism (read Dreams of My Father), his involvement with Franklyn Reins and Bill Ayers, his dearest supporters will believe him.

I'm glad that the abortion topic did come up in the debates though. Let's get rid of this ObamaNation! :D

Posted by: segamon at October 16, 2008 12:05 AM


This is sorta random but I saw it and thought it was pretty funny:


Posted by: prettyinpink at October 16, 2008 12:16 AM


Posted by: prettyinpink at October 16, 2008 12:19 AM


He obviously doesnt consider the undermining of Roe v Wade a lie, nor does he consider it a lie there was already a law on the books, as he included both of those statements in "The Audacity of Hope" on page 133 (I literally just read it).
Posted by: Dan at October 15, 2008 11:39 PM

Dan,
You do know that his spiel about a law being on the books is total BS right? The law he referred to was unenforceable due to a judges order. Just like the Parental Notification of Abortion Act which has been a law on the books for 20 years but completely unenforceable due to a judges order. Any abortions restrictions the good people of Illinois pass are rendered useles by pro-aborts who tie the laws up in the judicial system; rendering them unenforceable. If that law Obama refers to was truly his reasons for voting against the BAIPA then he is
way too ignorant a lawyer to trust with the presidency.

Posted by: truthseeker at October 16, 2008 12:32 AM


Correction,
If that law Obama refers to IS truly his reasoning for voting against the BAIPA then he is one of the most ignorant and incompetent lawyers I have ever seen.

Posted by: ts at October 16, 2008 12:35 AM


I especially loved it when McCain referred to the baby killers as pro-aborts.

Posted by: truthseeker at October 16, 2008 12:38 AM


It is a measure of depth of the financial fear in our society that a candidate who is an obvious liar and self absorbed megalomanic can enjoy such a lead in the polls.

Just as in the presidential election of 1932, the bad news of the day is sending people in panic to the "opposition" candidate, even though he and his party are as much or more responsible for the bad news.

Posted by: Doyle Chadwick at October 16, 2008 12:54 AM


k,
regarding Posted at October 15, 2008 11:52 PM

You can call me a gangster of love.
You can call me a warrior for life.
But my allegiance is to the Lord.


Posted by: truthseeker at October 16, 2008 12:58 AM


However I do understand the sentiment he claimed tonight about health of the mother, but also agree with McCain that it has been stretched to a breaking point in some cases.

Posted by: Dan at October 15, 2008 11:39 PM

There is no scientific evidence of benefit to a mother's health from abortion.

Any statistical comparison you can find shows that women who have ever had an abortion have poorer health ( mental and physical) than women who have never had an abortion.

Women with serious physical conditions can have their babies delivered alive in a hospital by c-section.

Life threatening previablity life situations are so rare as to be statistically insignificant.

There is no health benefit from abortion.

Posted by: hippie at October 16, 2008 1:54 AM


Jill, as soon as I heard Obama drop the whopper about how he DIDN'T vote against the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, I knew I had to visit your blog tonight.

What a completely boldfaced, outright LIE!!!!!

Posted by: Ryan at October 16, 2008 3:12 AM


Doyle -great point.
...

I think McCain left some oppurtunities to really knock out Obama. Obama is lying about tax cuts for 95%. One third don't pay any income tax at all. Obama will be sending out checks to them (i.e welfare)

"Obama not only opposed IL's BAIPA, he took a leadership role to kill it. His website still contains an ABC News quote from the IL Planned Parenthood CEO at the time stating "Obama approached her" to strategize to defeat BAIPA as well as the Partial Birth Abortion Ban. Barack Obama actually sought out PP to help him defeat a bill protecting abortion survivors."

I must missed this point in the past. That Obama approached PP, not the other way around...sickening and evil. The American people are being duped.

Posted by: Jasper at October 16, 2008 5:50 AM


Dan, if anybody honestly believes that caring for a live-born infant threatens Roe, and still defends Roe, then clearly that person is willing to sacrifice born babies to protect abortion.

There are people out there who know that Obama is so okay will putting babies in a utility room to die that he voted against BAIPA, who will say, "But there are other issues...."

There was once a young, upcoming, politically active young man. Very popular in the party. Bright, personable. Very hard working, volunteering for the party. He worked at a suicide prevention hotline. He was kind to his elderly landlady, doing chores for her around the house. He brought his girlfriend flowers every year on the anniversary of the day they met, and he'd take her kids and their friends out for ice cream.

Then everybody found out he had a secret. He bludgeoned co-eds to death in their beds as a hobby. His name was Ted Bundy.

What kind of sick sonofabitch would you have to be to say, "Well, there are other issues besides crime! What about suicide prevention! What about water safety! I can't hold just one thing against Ted just because I disagree with it!"

If you're okay with killing newborns, what in the name of God could possibly make that okay?

Posted by: Christina at October 16, 2008 6:07 AM


Oh -- I forgot to put that our young up and coming politician Ted also rescued a toddler from drowning. (That's why I mentioned water safety as an "issue")!

Posted by: Christina at October 16, 2008 6:09 AM


hippie, it's especially true when we're talking the late-term abortions in which the baby can survive. There's a long-established way of dealing with maternal health crises late in pregnancy -- it's called delivering the baby! Depending on the mother's health problem, that will mean either halting efforts to keep her from going into premature labor, or doing a c-section.

What possible health concern can the mother have that would require that you stop in the middle of all that to try to kill the baby? What kind of possible health concern can the mother have that would require that you deny the baby medical care if he or she is born alive?

And remember that unless the mother has already started to go into premature labor, an induction abortion takes THREE DAYS or more! What possible health concern can she have that would make you spend THREE DAYS forcing the baby out instead of doing a c-section that would have the pregnancy over and the baby in the NICU within the hour?

It's totally nonsensical.

Posted by: Christina at October 16, 2008 6:14 AM


Christina,
That is what I would like to know as well. What I wished McCain would have asked.

Save the mother. Kill the baby.

Posted by: Carla at October 16, 2008 6:57 AM


I was going to post some extreme sarcasm about Ted and Barry O., but had a change of heart, and decided to treat this issue with the gravity and sincerity it deserves.

Instead, I'll point out that those who are perishing simply need compassion and mercy, because they are under wrath.

It's up to the American public to seriously look into this issue and make a choice in what we as a nation truly believe.

If we, as a people, truly believe that we want a leader who doesn't respect those who are born and living, who believes that a decision to kill must be followed through with - then God help us all.


Posted by: Chris Arsenault at October 16, 2008 7:28 AM


Marxists lie for a living.

Posted by: Arlen Williams at October 16, 2008 7:37 AM


Jill:

I think you need to change your strategic focus. I know that Barack Obama is dreadful, an absolute abortionist sociopath, but he is not the only danger. The Democratic Congress, controlled by the abortion lobby, is every bit the danger to unborn children that Obama is. The unhappy reality is that, as a result of SEVERE ECONOMIC PROBLEMS CAUSED BY THE DEMOCRATS THEMSELVES, the voters are stampeding toward the very party which caused the problems in the first place. This is an awful situation, especialy if you look at everything the Democrats have promised to do after the election. They will pursue policies and legislation which will do very great harm to our economy, on top of the harm which they have already done.

So we have a terrible situation in which uninformed voters, justifiably unhappy about the state of the economy, are being suckered and conned by the Democrts' sound bites about "change" and "failed policies of the past eight years". They are going to potentially sacrifice the lives of millions of unborn children so that they might give total power to a group of politicans who, through their economic ignorance, nearly brought down the world financial system, who have done severe damage to the economy already and who will do even more once they control everything.

So the lives of unborn children will be lost so that we can make our economic and social problems that much worse. This is absolutely horrible.

It is looking like McCain may not be saved. Thus it becomes absolutely critical that we save as many Republican House and Senate seats as humanly possible, especially the absolutely critical Senate seats.

Jill, would you do everything you can, whether on this website or in your media interviews, to point out that Obama is not the only threat to the unborn, that the House and Senate Democrats are also a great danger?

Please tell anyone and everyone you can that for the sake of the unborn we MUST try to save as many Republican House and Senate seats as we can. In interviews, please point out how dangerous and abortionist House and Senate Democrats are and how critical it is for ALL PRO-LIFE VOTERS TO VOTE REPUBLICAN.

Posted by: Joe at October 16, 2008 7:50 AM


Arlen: I thought politicians and lawyers did that too!


Seems like McCain just doesn't know how to attack Obama. I don't know - maybe he's just too old and mellow for this stuff...

Posted by: Patricia at October 16, 2008 7:50 AM


Why would the Illinois Legislature spend time(and taxpayer money) on this if it were already on the books?

In addition, if you REALLY believed in something, wouldn’t you just vote for it twice? What would it hurt?

Posted by: Lovethemboth at October 16, 2008 8:07 AM


This exchange was awful for McCain. The focus group of undecided voters on CNN LOVED Obama's reasonable answer on the abortion issue. And when McCain responded by mocking health exceptions, he looked like a monster.

Posted by: reality at October 16, 2008 8:07 AM


McCain crashed and burned on this one...oh, sorry, that was too easy. He had his shot and he couldn't come through. He put the a woman's health in quotations like it didn't matter. Good move Johnny Boy. I guess he put his first wife's "health" in quotations when he started sleeping with Cindy behind her back and when he filed for divorce. If he was truly pro life he would of gone full tilt but he is not.

Posted by: PeachPit at October 16, 2008 8:19 AM


I had to check out this website from a friend recommendation..

I will say, I felt that Mcain failed here.. He could of REALLY focused on some of Obama's faultering points..but he didn't... That is so frustrating..and I think hurt our party in the sense that the debate really moved past abortion... it became almost a non-issue in the debate.. UGHHH! I was really worried about this and hoping he would stop focusing on all the other stuff and really focus on the big issues..This is one issue, Obama is really weak debating and "shmoozing"....but some how, Mcain was to overwhelmed and angry about pointing fingers at other things, he seemed to forget about human infant life...

I am just writing to say, I wish he could of slammed Obama here.. and he really was softest in this area than any other... I think the American Public is going out of the debate saying " What did Mcain say again?"

just frustrated...

Posted by: Camille at October 16, 2008 8:29 AM


Reality,
Heellllooooo, Obama APPEARED reasonable because he LIED (ie. intentionally misspoke and fed his faithful disciples the load of s**t they wanted to hear) through his teeth.

He knows the American public would never tolerate his extreme anti life views, so he wraps a little sugar and syrup around them and you guys swallow them whole, well because he's just so dreamy. I imagine he and Michelle have a good hardy laugh every night when they think about how easy it has been to feed you guys your kool-aid. Excuse me while I go and vomit his load of excrement from my system.

Posted by: DeeL at October 16, 2008 8:33 AM


The health exception IS overused. I've read that a reason for abortion was "I want to attend a rock concert". And Partial Birth Abortion, which takes three days, is dangerous to the mother. What kind of health problem could someone have that it should take three days to deliver a baby? If the baby is far enough along, a c-section could be done and the baby taken to the NICU.


There are already programs pushing contraception -- its pushed like its a miracle drug, like pregnancy is some sort of disease!


Posted by: LizFromNebraska at October 16, 2008 8:34 AM


The arguement of late term abortion/partial birth abortion in terms of saving a women's life is ridiculous...

I am so disappointed that Mcain didn't argue this one... Come on, it is a no brainer in the medical world, it got totally looked over last night.

How did Obama get to walk past that one without a Mcain dispute? Maybe b/c Mcain was still to angry about all the media and press... I am so tired of that and was ready for him to pounce on this one.. and he failed...

Gosh, this makes me mad! I really thought he could of done more good here!

Posted by: carla #2 at October 16, 2008 8:34 AM


From Richard Neuhaus over at First Things on the second debate:
"The Tuesday debate between Senators McCain and Obama was, it must be admitted, something of a bore. If the outcome is called a draw, it is hard to resist the conclusion that it was a win for Obama. It seems that all he has to do for the next few weeks is to keep his cool and not frighten the electorate. There is much that should be frightening about the prospect of an Obama presidency, but McCain seems unwilling to press the point.

"All the particulars implied in the familiar, and true, assertion that Obama is an extreme liberal are legitimate, and urgent, subjects of debate, raising serious questions about his fitness to be president."

"If the election comes down to a personality contest, and for many voters that is what it is, Obama walks away with it."

"Ah well, as Charlie Brown says at the end of the baseball season, “Lose a few, lose a few.” And maybe some unexpected world event, or McCain’s deciding to press the question “Who is Barack Obama?”, will still turn this around."


I hear ya Fr. Richard. Seems like this stuff applies to the third debate too....

Posted by: Patricia at October 16, 2008 8:39 AM


Let's replace Palin with Stanek and really energize the base! STANEK/mccain 2008!
t

Posted by: troy newman at October 16, 2008 8:43 AM


I think it is hysterical that folks think Obama has a desire to kill babies....good one.

McCain showed last night he doesn't fully embrace the pro life stance and he had most of you hook line and sinker....you feel used yet?

Posted by: PeachPit at October 16, 2008 8:52 AM


DeeL,
Agreed.
Smooth talking lies sound darn good don't they? Especially delivered with a smile and a twinkle in the eye.

Posted by: Carla at October 16, 2008 8:56 AM


This is the issue I can see Obama having with the law:

"no matter what gestational age"

That is the issue. It becomes a point of well, does one try to recesitate one as early as 12 weeks, how bout 10? etc. That's the problem he saw with it, I'm sure. And given the suits constantly brought by those on all sides by twisting the intent of what is a good law poses problems, and for a pro-choice politician the no matter what age becomes an issue should someone try to have the doctor attempt to perform life saving care on a 12 week fetus who obviously (at this point in medical care development) will not survive, and should the doctor refuse it will lead to a suit that could overturn Roe, and for the pro-choice side paranoia surrounds the loss of Roe because of past attempts, etc.

I don't agree, but from a pro-choice perspective that explores all possibilities, and is afraid of Roe being overturned, it makes some degree of sense. If there had been some age my bet is he would have voted for the law. However this would leave it to legislators to change the law as medical technology improves in that area, and we all know the issues the law has catching up to current problems.

Posted by: Dan at October 16, 2008 8:58 AM


I give Sen. McCain credit for calling those who favor baby murder what they are: PRO-ABORTS.

As far as CNN viewers, oh big stinking deal, like that was any kind of surprise they would jump for joy at Obama's response, they've all ready believed a lie in that abortion is some kind of privacy right written in the constitution!
People that stupid would obviously believe Obama's lies and I don't care if they say they are "un-decided", if CNN found them they all ready were leaning left.

Posted by: sandi at October 16, 2008 9:00 AM


Carla,
Ugh. A bunch of star-struck adolescents are going to send the entire country down the tubes because they're too stupid to look past Obama's silver tongue. I keep thinking about the Disney movie "The Jungle Book" where Kaa has Mogli under his ssssssspelllll.

Peach Pit,
We know McCain isn't 100% pro life. He hasn't lied about his position on appointing judges or on stem cell research. Obama lies about everything because he knows to reveal the truth would be to lose the election.

Obama: "I will look for those judges who HAVE AN OUTSTANDING JUDICIAL RECORD, who have the intellect and who HOPEFULLY HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT REAL WORLD FOLKS GO THROUGH."

That's a litmus test, you know the very thing O sat there and said he would not apply. Supreme Court justices are to APPLY the Constitution. Period. They're not supposed to interpret or rewrite it, nor are they supposed to consider what "real folks go through". This is total code speak for "I will appoint judges who will legislate from the bench". Obama can't speak without doing so out of both sides of his mouth. I suspect you know that, and are willing to vote for him because in your mind, the ends justify the means. But that doesn't change the fact that if your guy honestly revealed himself there's not a chance he'd be elected. You know it and he knows it. So who's really being used here. Feel dirty yet? I'm not even in bed with the great deceiver but I feel like I need a shower every time the guy opens his mouth.

Posted by: DeeL at October 16, 2008 9:24 AM


Ok, I've decided that in order to vote people should have to pass a content test about what each candidate actually supports. It doesn't have to be "hard" just basic policy beliefs.

Because time and again I hear people say "I just like to hear Obama talk". People, once again I will say, eloquently spoken lies are STILL lies. Listen to what he is saying, not just how he says it!

God, this whole thing just makes me sick.

Posted by: lauren at October 16, 2008 9:28 AM


Lauren,
Did you hear that Howard Stern piece where they were attributing McCain's pro-life and Iraq positions, and even Palin as his running mate, to Obama and the idiots were out there saying that's why they were voting for him?

I agree, they should have to know who the candidates are, what ticket they're running on and their basic stance on the issues. I'm also of the mind that if you don't pay taxes, you don't get a say in how the government spends money. You know, "no ticky, no washy."

Posted by: DeeL at October 16, 2008 9:35 AM


http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/face-of-the-d-9.html

face of the day

Posted by: Hal at October 16, 2008 11:57 AM


Dan,

I agree with you. I mean really, Obama is not the kind of guy who would just love to see babies die. Definitely misguided decision but it's not like his reason for voting against it is because he actually wanted more babies to die.

Posted by: prettyinpink at October 16, 2008 11:59 AM


"That's a litmus test"

Then so was McCain's. He said boldy that he wanted no litmus test but that he was judging on qualifications and experience. If that to you is a litmus test, then let's be fair-both candidates are for it.

Posted by: prettyinpink at October 16, 2008 12:01 PM


Obama may not love to see babies die(He won't really SEE them die will he?)or wish he could kill them himself........but whatever legislation he puts forth, whatever legislation he repeals whatever legislation he supports WILL increase abortion rates.

Whether he "enjoys" the thought of babies dying by abortion is not the issue. The issue is he would be the most extreme proabortion this nation has ever seen.

I think what he is promoting reveals "what kind of a guy" he really is.

Posted by: Carla at October 16, 2008 12:07 PM


The most extreme proabortion President this nation has ever seen.
Sorry.

Posted by: Carla at October 16, 2008 12:09 PM


PIP, everything he does is a reason to vote against him.

1- He was directly responsible for our current economic crisis. He was one of the lawyers who sued Countrywide for not giving enough subprime loans to minorities. This lawsuit resulted in more subprime loans being issued and ultimately the downfall of our housing market.

2- His tax policy will hurt the very middle class voters he is trying to convince it will help. Look at it this way. What good is 1000 dollars to a man who lost his job because his employer could no longer afford to employee him? Not much.

3- His foreign policy is terrifying. He either does not understand Israels importance in the middle east, or he agrees w/ Iran that it is a "stinking corpse". Either way the world is in serious trouble if the radical palestinians have their way.

4- His health care policy will put more Americans on a flawed government healthcare system. The government is TERRIBLE about running the healthcare it currantly oversees. Why should we trust them with more?

5- Oh yeah, he wants to sign into law FOCA which would overturn every pro-life legislation ever passed and make it illegal to pass any future legistlation.

6- And he wants to leave babies to die in soiled utility rooms to perserve the sacrament of abortion.

Other than that, he's a great presidential candidate, I mean I just love to hear him talk *swoon*.

I'm sorry, Obama is NOT a good, but misguided man. He has shown that he is, at best, the worst of the Chicago-style politicians.

Posted by: lauren at October 16, 2008 12:10 PM


I could say that McCain's vote against a measure that banned waterboarding and other forms of torture by the CIA. He said he did so because he didn't want to LIMIT CIA operations.

I don't agree with that. As a military man I can understand that position. I definitely disagree with it though. Like Obama had lost some of my respect by voting against the bill, so did McCain by voting against this one. But that is not the main reason I'm not voting for McCain, since I am not a one-issue voter.

Posted by: prettyinpink at October 16, 2008 12:11 PM


" I mean I just love to hear him talk *swoon*."

It's insulting that you consider his voters to all be like that. Like we don't think for ourselves.

For the record, I fully support his health care plan because it will foster competition and lower health care costs by a considerable degree.

I like his foreign policy of diplomacy. I'm more terrified at McCain's foreign policy which may lead us into even more invasions and military operations.

And I'd consider deregulation of the banking industry the biggest factor in the crisis. Putting all the blame on Obama is a little over the top, don't you think?

Posted by: prettyinpink at October 16, 2008 12:17 PM


DeeL-

That was the original reason for caucuses, they forced you to understand where you stood, who you supported, and why and then convincing those undecided or who supported a candidate not deemed viable, or any candidate for that matter, that your candidate is the better choice because of X, Y, and Z and for whatever reasons that support those policies/conclusions.

Posted by: Dan at October 16, 2008 12:23 PM


I always hear the mantra "safe, legal and RARE" but yet, when we want to make abortion as RARE as possible by passing abortion restrictions, women's right to know, etc........they fight against it. What if there was a bipartisan effort to reduce abortion by having a program designed to help women get job skills and life skills to help them get a good job and be able to raise their baby?


Making it a little easier for adoption would be nice, too. There wouldn't be so much overseas adoption if it was a little easier to adopt in the USA.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at October 16, 2008 12:28 PM


"What if there was a bipartisan effort to reduce abortion by having a program designed to help women get job skills and life skills to help them get a good job and be able to raise their baby?"

Well, Obama did propose programs to aid the mother through the pregnancy process, etc (much like everyone here has endorsed) last night (also mentioning Dems FINALLY added it to the platform), whereas McCain said nothing until Obama brought it up. That was an opportunity to try and hit Obama McCain missed, and Obama took it.

Posted by: Dan at October 16, 2008 12:31 PM


I'd consider deregulation of the banking industry the biggest factor in the crisis.

Pretty good, PIP.

Posted by: Doug at October 16, 2008 12:52 PM


No, Pip, it is not over the top one bit to place the blame on Obama's shoulders. Of course, he wouldn't have a leg to stand on in those lawsuits had it not been for the policies put in place by ANOTHER democrat, Pres. Carter and his Community Reinvestment Act.

Like they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The swoon comment was out of line, but I am sick to death of hearing people say "I just love hearing him talk" as if that was a reason to vote for the man!

His "diplomacy" is meeting unconditionally with dictators. His "diplomacy" includes the view that "cynacism" is driving the quest to drive Israel into the see and the misguided belief that if we just compromise things will get better. We have tried on 3 seperate occasions to "compromise" with Palestine and give them their own state. The result? More bombings. We tried to "compromise" by pulling out of the West Bank. The result? Daily bombings lobed at Israel. Compromises and diplomacy only have a chance to work if the president clearly understands the problem. Obama does not.

Pip, the government's healthcare plan is so mismanaged that it takes 3 months to get an address change. During that time you can't be seen by a doctor because you're on the wrong plan. You can't just call in, or send in a letter and have your address changed, it has to go through 33 levels of beuracracy first. Is this really how we want our healthcare to be run?

Obama is wrong, flat wrong, on every important issue. I have no doubt that you are sincere in your support, but I think that your support is misguided.

Posted by: lauren at October 16, 2008 1:04 PM


Christina,

Great analogy. You can't always read a book by it's cover.

Posted by: Janet at October 16, 2008 2:13 PM


So true.....I am thinking of a story where this fictional character had deceived the whole universe then ceased power and ruled the galaxy until a rag tag group of rebels with help from a farm boy turned hero brought his reign of tyranny to an end.


Posted by: LizFromNebraska at October 16, 2008 3:06 PM


Here's a true story for everyone.....(not my great uncle)

My great uncle was an intern doctor before WWII, and his father was in the medical profession as well. A girl with Down Syndrome was born--he doesn't remember the exact day--and her parents were rather dissappointed. On the same day was born a strong, healthy boy. My great uncle says he does not remember the girl's name. She grew up and eventually nursed her mother for a year and a half until the woman died. But he does remember the boy's name,


Adolph Hitler.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at October 16, 2008 3:19 PM


Liz,

Let's stop comparing Obama to Hitler. That's just as bad as people calling Bush Hitler. It's ridiculous and getting old.

Lauren,

Well, we disagree on those. I don't know what else to tell you ;)

Posted by: prettyinpink at October 16, 2008 4:07 PM


He does believe in choice, which a large number of women do as well, abortion rights could have compromised that. It wasn't necessary to do so because.....


since 1975 and there was an Illinois law making it a first class felony for there not to be a second doctor in attendance
who can immediately take over care of the child if it’s born alive.It was mandated at that time that use every available means to keep any born-alive child living and healthy. To do otherwise constitutes a Class 3 felony, which carries a sentence of two to five years in prison.

Posted by: olivia at October 16, 2008 6:03 PM


Pretty in Pink
Fine. I'll concede McCain has his own version of a litmus test. He will appoint only judges who will follow the constitution as it was written, which is what they are constitutionally required to do. So his litmus test is that they have a record of dispensing justice based on the actual law rather than their personal ideologies.

Obama's litmus test, however, mandates that his appointees ignore the constraints placed on them by the constitution and circumvent the legislative process by taking the pulse of his radical left wing constituency and then legislating from the bench. Only those who know their views of America fall out of the mainstream advocate for this approach.

Posted by: DeeL at October 16, 2008 6:13 PM


Lauren,
Your "swoon" comment was no where near out of line. If these people want to be taken seriously they really need to stop acting like a bunch of twelve year old girls at a Jonas Brothers concert.

Tingles up the leg indeed.

Posted by: DeeL at October 16, 2008 6:18 PM


DeeL,

Please name anyone on this board who is voting for Obama just because he is a great speaker. Tell me who here fits in with that comment.

Obama basically said he would appoint judges based on competency and having same basic value system-nothing wrong with that.

Posted by: prettyinpink at October 16, 2008 6:44 PM


"Obama basically said he would appoint judges based on competency and having same basic value system-nothing wrong with that."

And what is that supposed to mean? What value system? I thought that they are supposed to interpret the Constitution.

Dan and PIP, did you read Robert George's opinion?
Everything that he said about B.O. is based on facts -- his voting record, etc

Posted by: Anonymous at October 16, 2008 8:40 PM


Pretty In Pink,
So you're voting for him because you actually support a bald faced lying, terrorist appeasing, America hating Marxist who exercises really bad judgement when acquiring friends, business associates, personal and spiritual mentors and political allies? You actually respect and admire the character of the guy who insists that a woman's right to a dead baby supersedes any right that child might have once it is actually born? Or is it his willingness to flagrantly and obstinately trample all over the Constitution of the United States that's got you all a tingle? Sorry, my mistake. I didn't realize those were the things you actually stood for.

A president is not supposed to appoint judges/justices based on his "value system", he's supposed to appoint judges/justices based on their willingness to apply the law/constitution as it is written. No ideologies imposed, no interpretation based on the prevailing culture, no looking to what the nut cases in Europe are doing. Our laws, our constitution, as they are written.

Sheesh. Aren't you required to pass U.S. Constitution tests in high school anymore?

Posted by: DeeL at October 16, 2008 10:22 PM


And by the way, when the government runs anything it does not foster competition,or lower costs. What it does is create a large money sucking bureaucracy that stifles competition, is ripe with fraud, and drives up costs. Public schools come immediately to mind.

For anyone who thinks government run healthcare is a good idea, I suggest you go spend a few hours at a Veteran's Hospital or better yet, take a trip down to your local DMV and observe the work ethic. Honestly, is that really how you want to treat the ill and dying?

Posted by: DeeL at October 16, 2008 10:38 PM


DeeL, I think a system that allows both private and public options will be better for everyone- and survey says its true. Look around, DeeL. Our country has horrible standings in health care compared to universal health care systems, and Obama is not even proposing a universal system. I'm sure you disagree, but your opinion isn't going to change my mind, sorry.

You also went on this rant about judges not being able to have the same value systems..what about all this BS from the last 8 years about not letting people get in *conservative* judges. Are you seriously not seeing your own side's partisanship? I honestly never saw any republican in the Bush Administration ever approve a liberal judge just because they are able to 'uphold the constitution.'

And I'm voting for him because I believe his policies will be better for the country. I am a LIBERAL. I'm not going to vote for conservative policies if I see they are failing and don't want them anymore. You are a CONSERVATIVE. You'd like the same policies. So, feel free to vote for the conservative candidate. Meanwhile your assumptions about liberals are childish and inane- which is something I see quite a lot on this site. Most of the liberals here don't respond to the desperate bullying tactics that people are throwing around. The least you can do is respect that.

Posted by: prettyinpink at October 16, 2008 11:30 PM


@PiP: Asking a conservative to have a modicum of respect for a liberal is like trying to get an earthworm to talk.

It's just not going to happen. :(

Posted by: Rae at October 16, 2008 11:38 PM


yeah Rae...I guess you are right. Sometimes I question why I bother to comment. I interrupt their Obama-bashing parties and they all get a bit hysterical- maybe I should stop posting so frequently this close to the election.

Posted by: prettyinpink at October 17, 2008 12:01 AM


*shrugs*

Sometimes it is funny to watch them get their panties in a bunch over it...

Posted by: Rae at October 17, 2008 12:03 AM


For sure, Rae. Until then, just waiting until election day and then at least for some of this all the hoopla will start to die down.

Posted by: prettyinpink at October 17, 2008 12:26 AM


I know I'm heading to SD the weekend after the election to go get sloshed with my cousins. :D

Posted by: Rae at October 17, 2008 12:36 AM


Good plan!!

Posted by: prettyinpink at October 17, 2008 12:45 AM


Dan,

I agree with you. I mean really, Obama is not the kind of guy who would just love to see babies die. Definitely misguided decision but it's not like his reason for voting against it is because he actually wanted more babies to die.

Posted by: prettyinpink at October 16, 2008 11:59 AM

pip,
You would do good to take John McCains advice to heart. In the debates he keeps telling people to judge himself and Obama NOT on what they say but on what they do. And if you do look at it that way, then Obama is the biggest pro abort poitician in congress. If you judge people by what they say, they can lie to you and make you believe they are someone other than who they are.
But if you judge people by what they do, you will know the truth about the way a person feels about things.

Go John Go and Go!
I will fight with you John!!!!

Posted by: truthseeker at October 17, 2008 2:57 AM


Oh please Rae. Republicans aren't big mean boogie men. Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe we get pissed off by "cute" snide remarks disparaging dying children?

Posted by: lauren at October 17, 2008 7:31 AM


PIP, CONSERVATIVE= Strict constitutionalist, it has nothing to do with their political persuasion. Of course, it just so happens that most strict constitutionalists are politically conservative, but it certianly doesn't have to be so.

You're not stupid, you complain about how we don't "respect" liberals, but honestly look around. Do you think all "internet liberals" as I'll call them deserve respect? Do you think we should we respect people who think it's clever to make animated gifs of fetuses dancing and singing about abortion or oh so clever photoshops deriding the Dugger family?

I'm not painting you with this brush, Pip, but you have to admit that it's a little absurd for a group to ask for respect, while they simultaneously act like a bunch of immature, rude children.

As for your liberal policies, it isn't like I'm 100% republican on every issue. I see middle ground on alot of things. However, Obama is NOT a centrist. The man is the most liberal member of congress. You might think that it will be happy utopian world for the Dems to run every branch of government, but unfettered power in any party doesn't work for our country.

I think it's interesting when people start saying that America would be better off if we adopted such or such European policy. Don't you remember that we fought a war to free ourselves from British rule? We, as Americans have substantial differences in the opinion of how a country should be run. America's constitution is unique, which is why it should be upheld, not "interpreted" by loosey goosey constitutionalists.

Posted by: lauren at October 17, 2008 7:40 AM


"CONSERVATIVE= Strict constitutionalist, it has nothing to do with their political persuasion. "

Nothing against you, but I doubt that very highly.

"Do you think all "internet liberals" as I'll call them deserve respect?"
I think it should go on a case by case basis and most of the liberals here are very respectful. Often, especially people like Hal, just receive terrible disrespect in return. I think respecting other people's beliefs is important.

" You might think that it will be happy utopian world for the Dems to run every branch of government"
I never said such a thing and besides the democrats would have to gain a substantial amount of seats to be a veto-proof majority. I'm not sure that would happen. It might. But as we can see from the last two years, even with a slight majority it's hard to get anything done!

"I think it's interesting when people start saying that America would be better off if we adopted such or such European policy"
I think Obama's plan is a good compromise.

Posted by: prettyinpink at October 17, 2008 7:59 AM


PIP,
America is the greatest experiment in self government ever attempted on earth. For centuries people have flocked to our shores to experience our freedoms. Freedom of (not from) religion, freedom to speak out, even against our government, and freedom to pursue wealth and happiness. Our forefathers were brilliant in constructing a constitution that, if abided by, guarantees those freedoms for generations to come. Conservatives understand that every time we tamper with the constitution, it has great potential to undermine the very delicate balance of power that was very carefully put in place.

Any clarifications of the constitution need to be approached slowly, carefully and even suspiciously and must never trample on the rights of every human being to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The amendment process is long and laborious for a reason. When used, it prevents a handful of people from imposing personal ideologies on the entire country.
When the process is ignored it creates great divisiveness and chips away at the foundation on which this great country stands. Roe v Wade is simply the most notable example.

Conservatives demand that our leaders respect and adhere to the constitution. We expect our laws to be enacted through the legislative process, through our duly elected officials. We see the inherent danger in allowing small panels of politically appointed men and women to INTERPRET rather than APPLY these carefully constructed laws, particularly the guiding law, the constitution.

And that is the greatest danger of an Obama presidency. He has no respect for the constitution as it is written and he has made it clear that he will appoint ideological judges and justices to twist and manipulate it into fitting his personal vision. He claims he is a uniter, but his ruling by fiat will, in reality, put our country on the road to greater divisiveness. You only think the political climate is ugly today, If Obama wins this election and begins imposing his will through the courts, civil war is a very real possibility.

You have laid out your reasons for voting for Obama and with all due respect, you have at least thought about it. That is much more than can be said for a vast number of Obama supporters. Listen to that Howard Stern piece PIP and then convince me that allowing these people to vote is not scary and dangerous.

And, even though you have considered the issues, your logic falls short. History has proved time and time again that socialism does not work. Peter is not going to work hard and create wealth when Uncle Sam regularly raids his wallet to support Paul, who is vegging on the couch popping cold ones and playing video games. Forced redistribution of wealth is the greatest disincentive to hard work, creativity and productivity ever schemed up by man. You inevitably end up with two classes, the very wealthy ruling class and the very poor (but equally poor) and oppressed working class. Obama has been very clear, he plans to redistribute the wealth. What he is illusive about is exactly to what extent. And be very clear, he plans to be part of the wealthy, ruling class.

Finally, Obama has proved over and over again that he is a pathological liar. Due to the MSMs refusal to reveal this, it is certainly conceivable that the sound bite groupies don't actually have a clue about his character. But you? You have had it all laid out for you and yet persistently ignore this man's total lack of character because he has laid out a vision of America that you think you agree with. Well a liar is a liar is a liar. And the problem with liars is that they say one thing and do another. To place your trust in this man is to do so at great peril to this nation. To do so, by willingly ignoring all you know about him, is to be complicit in his deceit.

Posted by: DeeL at October 17, 2008 9:56 AM


pip,
Obama will "say" whatever he thinks you want to hear and that is the extent of his compromise. He will sit at the debate and tell your face that he is not against a ban on late term abortions. But we both know that he stood at a Planned Parenthood rally and stated that as president he would pass the FOCA which would nullify all abortion restrictions nationwide in one fell swoop. Can you see that he "talks" a supportively about compromising his positions but like abortion when he talks to the general public, cause he knows there is popular suport for abortion restriction. But when he talks to a Planned Parenthood rally he speaks of taking the offense and passing FOCA to reapeal all abortion laws and says on this he will not yield. When a person is a liar like this, you need to look beyond what they say in order to figure out what they will do when they get into office. He has a long history of political ties to and funding from Planned Parenthood. Why would you believe im when he says he tells youb taht would compromise on pro-life issues. He his dishonest and he is being disingenuine to the people he speaks to. His dishonesty will cause great grief and sorrow to many when people like you get fooled and vote for him, and he passes FOCA, and funds abortions with federal tax dollars. I take the fight for the unborn seriously enough to look beyond his words and look to what he will actually do when he gets into office. As a person who believes abortion is murder, the policies he would likely put in nplace would force me to quit my job and refuse to pay a penny in federal taxes just to keep the blood off my hands. I would be a consient=ious objector to his federal funding of abortion and it would cause me and my family great hardship. You and anybody else who is truly pro-life need to quit believing Obama's lies as you listen to Obama him speak as a centrist and as one who is willing to compromise. Do you understand that an Obama presidency would likely mean FOCA passes and abortion is funded with federal tax monies? And if so, then how can you call yourself pro-life and vote for him?

Posted by: truthseeker at October 17, 2008 10:15 AM


Things are beginning to move back in the "right" direction. According to the CNN Poll of Polls Obama has dropped 1% and McCain has gained 1% since yesterday. The gap is getting smaller from 8% to a 6% difference. Lets keep building on this 1% at a time.
Go John Go!!!!
I will fight with you!!!

Posted by: truthseeker at October 17, 2008 10:42 AM


(To no one in particular:)

Vote with your heart. Vote pro-life.

Posted by: Janet at October 17, 2008 3:36 PM


"Oh please Rae. Republicans aren't big mean boogie men. Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe we get pissed off by "cute" snide remarks disparaging dying children?"

@Lauren, did I make "cute" snide remarks disparaging dying children?

And you know what? I was being facetious. Thanks for jumping down my throat though! Appreciate it.

Posted by: Rae at October 17, 2008 5:12 PM