As bad as things in the world are today, we see the Lord raising up ordinary men and women like Robert to combat the culture of death. It's very uplifting, and it's these kinds of stories that help to keep us going. Thanks for posting this Jill.

Separation of church and state. The state is making strides to force people to violate their faith and serve the state religion of political correctness and secular humanism.

I think this is a great thing that is happening here. What I like too, is that Laird will not have the pharmacists directing women to sources of contraceptives.
This forces women to seek those sources out for themselves and take responsiblity for their actions.
Yeah, birth control is a basic health care service and abortion is a basic human right.
We are not gonna suck that one up! A woman's sexuality is not a disease.

Hi XPPC. I don't know if you've mentioned this before or if you're interested in sharing, but judging by your name, are you a former employee or volunteer for Planned Parenthood? God love you.

As much as separation from church and state, this is an example of the free market at work. Let people decide with their own actions if they will support a business such as this.

This is a better model than having an employee that does not want to sell the legal goods or services the employer offers for sale. I do have a problem with employees that won't sell contraceptives or a taxi driver that won't take passengers that are carrying liquor.

I think it is awesome and I hope that this business continue to grow!

Birth control is basic health care for women?

Then vaginal intercourse must be the affliction?

no! pregnancy is the disease and the baby is the parasite, Chris. Get it?

Partricia - no can't be!

Unless vaginal intercourse occurs, the infection and parasite is not possible - right?

Um...I use birth control to control my out-of-whack reproductive system. There was no other viable options for me as I'm too young for ablation or a hysterectomy.

true Chris. What does that make men?

BC is not the best way to sort out a disturbed reproductive system. But we've been through this one before....

Contraceptives also can increase risks for certain types of cancer and can cause infertility problem later on if the woman wants children.

Pharmacists who refuse to provide birth control for women have no business being pharmacists. What right do they have to impose their obscurantist political agenda on others? They ought to go into some other profession and do something really constructive, instead of interfering with other people's rights.
This is all just a ploy to make contracetion illegal in America, which would only INCREASE abortions and create a black market in contraceptives. You anti-choice people are one sorry bunch of self-righteous hypocrites.

Patricia- I went to 3 gynecologists. THREE. All of them said that there is NOTHING they could do except either give me an IUS or oral contraceptives. I was and still am not a viable candidate for more permanent solutions. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Rae: I personally know of gyn/ob's who never prescribe the pill and would never dream of treating a woman with the BC pill. Granted they are few and far between. Many specialists do not have the depth of knowledge they should to treat women.
Google naprotechnology. This should lead you to a resource where, if you are serious about NOT taking the pill, you should be able to find help through such a doctor. I sincerely hope this will help.

Robert: what right do YOU have foisting your women-hating, baby-destroying totalitarian agenda on those of us who want a culture that fosters life for all.
YOu want to talk hypocrite: proaborts who won't tell women ALL the risks involved in abortion and who fight tooth and nail against informed consent for a medical procedure. Like you have the interests of women in mind? Yeah, right!

I suppose they have a right to do what they want in their business by not selling contraceptives, but as medical professionals (which I'm assuming they HAVE to be in order to be dispensing medicine) they should not be able to refuse redirection. If they're opening the pharmacy to change minds, it's probably not going to work but if they're doing it to cater to pro=life people, whatever.

Good for him. I would never patronize his business, but I'd rather he work there than my local Walgreens.

I hope that their business flourishes and that other pro-life pharmacies will follow in their footsteps! If I had one in my area I would definitely take all my business there!

Wichita,that's kinda my view too. He's being honest about what he's doing. No one is likely to walk into his place by mistake. The free market will offer plenty of alternatives, and probably put him out of business. I understand the alternative view as well, but let's see how this plays out in real life. Perhaps it's a good experiment.

At least he's providing a place where people don't have to worry about seeing contraceptive mentality items or junk magazines. I hope someone opens a pro life pharmacy in my city. I'd switch to them in an instant!

My Ob-GYN doctor doesn't prescribe the pill at all. A different doctor (general Practice) tried suggesting the pill to me when I had bronchitis last year. I have to tell these other doctors NO NO NO, but they don't listen.

I actually only have a couple of problems with this:

1) What does cigarettes have to do with the PL movement/philosophy?

2)Why will they not sell condoms? This promotes a safer and non-medical way to prevent pregnancy (which is what yall are essentially after)

3) Why does Porn have anything to do with this?

4) BC is used for Medical Reasons that has absolutely nothing to do with pregnancy.

-end rant-

"I went to 3 gynecologists. THREE. All of them said that there is NOTHING they could do except either give me an IUS or oral contraceptives. I was and still am not a viable candidate for more permanent solutions. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Posted by: Rae at October 21, 2008 9:16 AM"
------------------------------------------

Rae..if you're really serious about not using BC for your condition, check this out:

http://www.popepaulvi.com/services.htm

Porn is an ADDICTION, midnite, often leading to the breakdown of the family.

Condoms are anti life. They say "I can't give you my whole entire self".

Why would a PRO LIFE pharmacy want to PREVENT a natural result of sex? Last time I checked, pregnancy was not an STD.....though some act like it is.

A different doctor (general Practice) tried suggesting the pill to me when I had bronchitis last year. I have to tell these other doctors NO NO NO, but they don't listen.

Have you really found that they don't listen? I've had several doctors bring the pill up over the course of conversations, but as soon as I said it wasn't something I was interested in, we moved on.

"Condoms are anti life"

wow

YAZ (drospirenone and ethinyl estradiol) is the only birth control pill that's also approved by the FDA to treat emotional and physical premenstrual symptoms that are severe enough to impact your life
http://www.yaz-us.com/front?cref=4

Taking the pill provides some important non-contraceptive benefits. These include less painful menstruation, less menstrual blood loss
and anemia, fewer pelvic infections, and fewer cancers of the ovary and the lining of the uterus.
http://berlex.bayerhealthcare.com/html/products/pi/fhc/Yasmin_PPI.pdf

Liz:

First off that is your opinion on porn. It has nothing to do with the pro-life movement. It might be an addiction for some, but once again; has nothing to do with the PL movement.

Secondly, married couples use condoms b/c they either dont want children at that time (for various reasons) or they dont want to have another child so soon. Sorry to burst your bubble, but using a condom is more effective at preventing pregnancy than natural family planing.

Thirdly, I have never once said or even hinted that pregnancy is an STD.

Finally, yall are trying to prevent pregnancy. Yes, it might occur from sex (but that is neither here nor there at the moment). But yall dont want unplanned pregnancies b/c they could lead to an abortion.

"Sorry to burst your bubble, but using a condom is more effective at preventing pregnancy than natural family planing. "

Even Guttmacher claims that perfect use of the post-ovulation NFP is more effective than perfect condom use at preventing pregnancy.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_contr_use.html

Bobby:

Please tell me what woman has the time (whether she is working, going to school or raising kids) to keep up with her body temp at all times....

If there is such a woman out there I give her props, but it's too much of a pain (for me) with my busy schedule (and that is minus, a "career", kids and a husband)

oh and thanks for the link...I shall research that some more :o)

NARAL creating a fuss over this is a little like a meat-eater creating a fuss over a vegetarian restaurant refusing to serve meat. You want birth control? Try another pharmacy.

An interesting article that will certainly bring up the Catholic debate again:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/10/what_are_catholic_voters_prior.html

bmmg39:

I agree; there are other pharmacies in that community that can/will provide condoms, birth control pills, etc.

I just think it's goofy that they are banning cigarettes, and "porn" magazines...

**I am curious to what pharmacies in this community sell Playboy/Hustler/Penthouse etc... You have to go into an "adult store" to buy those in my state and are not next to People**

midnite678,
I've done this before. A woman has to take her temperature before getting out of bed in the morning, preferably the same time every day. The reason for doing it before getting out of bed is that movement will effect the body temp. and accurate readings are critical. It's the relatively minor spike in body temp that indicates ovulation. A basal thermometer should be used - not a regular one. Using temperature readings in addition to physical mucous symptoms can be effective in reading a woman's cycle.

Just wondering is no birth control a pro-life stance or a catholic pro-life stance? Why not condoms? I've never seen trashy/porn magazines at pharmacies only cheesy and overpriced gifts & merchandise :)

Can we just accept that some pro-lifers use birth control, instead of beating them over the head and turning them off to the cause?

Janet:

I must give you props for that. I personally (and dont know anyone) dont have time to do that.

I wake up at 6:00am every day; I jump out of bed to take a shower and get ready to leave my house by 7AM. I dont have time to take my temp in the morning...

But like I said...more power to the women who have the time

And the people will vote on this issue with their pocketbooks, and we shall all see whether life or death is elected.

I'm glad to see this pharmacy opening.

Robert asked "what right does he have"? Well, he has a right to work a job of his choosing. Does a dentist have to do orthodontia or oral surgery if he doesn't want to? Does a video store owner have to stock porn movies if he doesn't want to? Does a book store have to sell Bibles? You don't see Christians getting in a tizzy over that. Should we force an atheist bookseller to stock Catholic theology texts by the Pope? Does a small vegan grocery store have to sell meat because most people eat meat? Does a Jewish vendor have to sell Christmas trees? I could go on....

"You anti-choice people are one sorry bunch of self-righteous hypocrites."

You don't like us much, do you Robert? Sheesh.

Midnite,
Done the whole temp and charting thing as well. First thing in the mornin.

I think this pharmacist is covering his bases so to speak and is letting people know what he will and will not carry. Not that cigarettes are prolife(?)but why not put all the info out there so people know what he will or will not carry? There are people that find quite a few things offensive and objectionable and want to know if those items are there or not. That's just my guess though.

Hope you are well, Midnite. :)

Carla:

That makes sense, but it seems like he's adding those in there to the PL philosophy..maybe that's just my take on it...

Thanks for sharing, Janet. I was actually just about to say, Midnite, that I think there are several women on this board who have spent many years practicing some form of NFP. If anyone else wishes to share, I'd love to hear experiences.

I charted for years with my first two children and then purchased an OvuTec which shows your ferile times using your saliva. Ovulation is shown as a ferning pattern. Which is why my husband nicknamed me Fertile Fern. Good times.

I found charting and temp taking to be simple and helped me understand so much more about myself and my cycle.

Bobby,
No problema.

Let the market decide! I pray the Lord will bless
this businessman for his fidelity to life and true concern
for women.

I love America for her amazing and creative entrepreneurs!

May this model flourish and fan out across the land.

Wow. The Moonies at The Washington Times love it! Great. But one thing that I've always wondered about with some pro-life Catholic groups - If JPII is the former Pope , why the continued obsession with him. What about the new guy?

Yo La,

What kind of question is that? "the new guy"? Could you please show some respect?

What are yo referring to?

Janet he claims he is a pro-life pharmacist who won't sell porn why? I myself have never seen porn in a pharmacy. What "pharmacy" has he been going to?

One vote in defense of Jess.

Perhaps they mean that they won't be selling MAXIM, COSMOPOLITAN, or similar "porn lite."

I work currently in a Catholic facility that takes all of our indigent patients/medicaid... I work in the labor and delivery unit--- MOst of our patients are hispanic, poor, have over 3 children. Many have multiple medical problems, specifically diabetes, highblood pressure and add that onto advanced gestational age..Our NICU is loaded with very ill infants- and parents in financial crisis along with the disfunctional family.

I cannot tell you how many women tell me that they desire either birth control or tubal ligation... The idea of natural planning is great--but in the world of our poor minorities we do have a "male dominance" issue that cannot be ignored. Many women tell me they have "no choice" of when to have sex. It is a sad scenerio, but far to commmon.

I understand the catholic views- however, it is frustrating..I have seen more women opt for behind the scenes abortion, hiding from their husbands and family d/t the fierce scrutiny by the public and the travisty it causes these poor families...

My stance is this... Family planning is great for folks like myself..(have done it for 15 yrs.. have a 10 yr old and a 7 yr old and I am quite lucky..) My husband is responsible and respectful.. we have the understanding of how my body works---
But for the millions of families in a distinctive and different part of society... that are sufferring from poverty and injustice(including male dominance).. Can we not agree that not providing birth control is hurting folks.. Are we so blind that we cannot see that not everyone is like ourselves?

It is very, very hard to tell a woman in the hospital that has just had her 8th baby and has severe high blood pressure and a 26 premie sufferring in the NICU that she has no options.. I know the prolife community would love to tell her to "do family planning"-- get a IUD--- but not all folks can have that choice..

Just food for thought from those of us who actually work in the community that is sufferring.. Remember folks-- not everyone is like ourselves.
blessings-
Annie

Bad business for a bookstore not to stock the Bible, it is a best seller, lol.

As for the pharmacy-

birth control/contraceptives aren't their main source of business, likely won't dent business too much unless there's another pharmacy near by with a better stock of drugs/prices/what have you.

As for the porn bit-

I have to agree it is nowhere near an addiction for a majority of people. And I also agree with the sentiment of what pharmacy sells porn in the first place? That was always a small convenience store thing, least thats how it seems to be here.

Condoms will always be available, their available at any major convenience store, and I don't see that stopping anytime soon. I also don't see how condoms are anti-life, saying so is just ridiculous. If condoms are anti-life, so is masterbation, oral sex, etc. You can call it sinful all you want, but the fact is that it isn't anti-life.

====As for the pharmacy-

birth control/contraceptives aren't their main source of business, likely won't dent business too much unless there's another pharmacy near by with a better stock of drugs/prices/what have you. ====

Actually, a friend of mine was with Walgreens for a time in their management training program. As such, he had to take the training to be a Pharm-tech. He said that an amazing percentage of their prescriptions were birth control (25-30%). For many drug stores (as well as Planned Parenthood), it's quite a lucrative business.

Good for that Pharmacist, if there was one in my area, I would go.

btw: Hugh Heffner and Larry Flint are endorsing Obama. I'm not surprized.

Pornography is definitely connected to abortion and birth control. I know this might sound funny to those who have not heard it or do not want to hear it. All of these acts(porn, abortion, birth control) are self gratifying sexual acts and all use and abuse women. Abortion and BC give men the option of freely abusing the women with no consequences. Same is true with porn. Men have used these tools to abuse women forever but recently it has gotten worse. This is about men sexually using women as objects. You may think it is about personal choice, yes, but personal choice to do what? There is a consequence to your actions.

The free market will offer plenty of alternatives, and probably put him out of business.
by my pal, Hal
Yeah, you wish, sweetum's!

As Janet stated, basal body temperature is measured in the morning. Takes a minute. But most women get to know their body so well that the temperature taking stuff can be bypassed. There are other fertility symptoms that are much more accurate and can be checked throughout the day. It's not rocket science and any woman can use it.

My best friend's husband is addicted to pornography. She has been horrified and ready to leave more times than I can count. It has taken a toll on their marriage. It is very real and very debilitating to those that are addicted and to those that them.

Oh yeah, I forgot to comment on that. My wife takes all of 30-40 seconds per day taking her temp for NFP. How can anyone use time as an excuse?

Ungh.
It is very real and very debilitating to those that are addicted to pornography and to their families who love them.

Carla: the highest users of internet porn are young men aged 12 to 17. It's then that they get addicted. I'm wondering if this addiction resurfaces later on in life....???
You and your girlfriend are gonna have to be prayer-warriors for this man. pray and tell Satan he can't have him!!

Jess,
Sometimes you cross a line here and I want to let you know that you have brought up your personal TMI stories before. You can stay on topic without going too far. In the future they will be deleted. I will spell it out. Do not discuss your elicit novels and masturbation. Thank you.

Carla-

So is addiction to cigarettes, or sex (which I could see an addiction to pornography being a symptom of), eating, alcohol etc.

Something being addictive, resulting in possible harm to the family, doesn't mean it should be illegal.

Hello all. I have deleted some comments by a few people discussing a topic that seemed inappropriate for this blog. I'm not trying to censor anyone, but I feel it was too explicit. Thanks for understanding.

Who is talking about it being illegal, Dan? I am just saying that pornography addiction is real, gets worse as time goes on without help, and can tear apart families.

There are those that simply do not believe there can be such a thing and I am stating there is. :)

I'm sure pornography addictions can be destructive, like any addiction (for many other legal products and activities.). People will always make choices and pay consequences, that's freedom. In my view, the answer is not to restrict freedom, but help people make healthy choices.

Patricia,
Have been praying for years about her husband! He is in an accountability group, individual counseling and has a lock on his computer at work.
He was shown pornography at the tender age of 6 and the images never left his little brain. The addiction had gotten worse in recent years as internet pornography took hold.

Also wanted to add that I thought I read a study of men who had a history of criminal sexual conduct and it was found they all had viewed pornography or been addicted to it. Ted Bundy comes to mind.

Hal,
I've always found it easiest to resist things that are not available. Pretty elementary. It's why I don't ever buy Oreos at the supermarket. Come 'round 9pm and they start calling my name. If they're all the way at the store, it's much easier not to eat them.

Carla: how terribly tragic for your friend. The worst thing I think is that this stuff is everywhere - in ads, on TV.
I was visiting my son at university on Sunday and we were in the student centre talking and having coffee. An ad for "dancing with the stars" or something like that, came on the TV there and I was very shocked at the "movements" goin on! How could any man possibly watch this show? How could any woman? I was....stunned. Men use to go to strip clubs to see this sort of thing! - why bother? It's on TV! Yuck!

PJMama-

That can't exactly be done with things on the internet though. You can make it illegal in the US, but the internet porn makers will simply move servers overseas, likely those with a history of not cooperating with the U.S. They keep their business and the cash keeps flowing in, and the U.S. can't get ahold of IP lists to see who views it illegally online.

Which is why it's so hard to prosecute those who make/sell child pornography, unfortunately.

I was taught the Creighton Method -- you only have to check your mucus and chart accordingly. They suggest that the husband participate in the charting to become familiar with and to appreciate his wife's fertility. It helps to open up the lines of communication.

Patricia-

some dance styles (espescially those of latin origin) are inherently sensual/"sexy", its how the culture evolved, and the dance scene evolved as well.

It's a heart issue. Stop the demand. Stop the supply.

Ever read Wild at Heart?

"I've always found it easiest to resist things that are not available."

Well, some people like freedom and personal responsibility and some don't. Alcohol can (and does) call all kinds of problems. I don't think it should be banned. Same with marijuana. Same with cigarettes. Same with gambling. Same with food.

The issue in a nutshell:

Pro-Aborts: Freedom! Freedom! Freedom! Right to CHOOSE!!!

Pro-life Pharmacy: We choose not to sell birth control or porn.

Pro-Aborts: ANTI-CHOICE!!!!

Pro-life Pharmacy: Huh? It's our "choice" not to sell that crap. Go buy it elsewhere.

Pro-Aborts: NO THAT IS ANTI-CHOICE YOU MUST SELL IT OR ELSE!

Pro-life Pharmacy: Why?

Pro-Aborts: BECAUSE WE SAID SO!

Pro-life Pharmacy: So you're against free markets, against my right to operate my business as I want, against my right to freedom of religion and freedom of expression, against my right to free association? You essentially want the government to come in here and tell me how I'm allowed to live my life?

Pro-Aborts: That's right, and we want to force you to help women get abortions, too.

Pro-life Pharmacy: You claim to be for "choice". Isn't that hypocritical?

Pro-Aborts: Yeah, we're the worst hypocrites in the world. But that's OK as long as we're promoting a Culture of Death in all that we do.

Again, Hal, you take a morsel and turn it into a meal. Stop reaching.

No one is talking here about banning or criminalizing pornography. We are simply supporting the idea that, by refusing to stock and sell these items, this pharmacy owner is making a statement about what he wants to participate in. Making an item more easily available to people IS contributing to it. Law or no law. Simple. Our government participates in this concept consistently, by regulating everything from alcohol to firearms. Duh.

By using your tactic of drawing dramatic and overreaching conclusions from another person's rational argument, I could assume that you advocate the wide availability of alcohol, even to children, with the onus being on the child and the child's parents to "teach their kid right". You know damn well that's ridiculous and so do I. So stop marginalizing our arguments by assuming the most radical response possible.

Thank you Carla and Bobby.
. . . . . . . . . . .
Good post, John L.

I hear you John. That's why I ended up on the side of the Pro-Life Pharmacy. Nice to be on the same side for once.

okay, PJMama, then I agree with you. this guy is certainly within his rights to not stock pornography or anything else, for any reason. I owned a store once, I made a lot of decisions about what to stock, sometimes even on moral grounds. I mistakenly assumed you were advocating something more. My apologies.

Dan: i studied many types of dance through my figure skating and their ain't no latin dance that's danced this way. Even rhumba's and salsa's are quite tame compared to what I saw on the tv. The women looked absolutely ridiculous besides the fact that they were virtually naked.

Eileen#2: Creighton method was just being developed when I learned! Heard it's now the best method! Amazing to know how the body works!

Patricia-

We did some latin dancing at my college orientation as a "break the ice" activity. We then watched a performance by the instructors of a South American dance that was incredibly sensual, it was bizarre to watch. It didn't seem all that complicated, just fast and seemingly very sexual.

Just sayin, there are definitely sensual/sexual dances out there, lol.

The man has the right to refuse to sell anything he wants. It's *his* store. Being a small, independent pharmacy he may not be able to compete with the low prices of super pharmacies like Wal Mart. Good luck to him.

Oh, and my very Catholic Gramma loves Dancing with the Stars.

Thanks for conceding that point, Hal.
Now, I'm off to the market for some Oreo cookies and milk. he he

Dan: I think the latin dances are great but what I saw on tv just looked like a bunch o' cheap bimbo's with very little talent lol

And I would go out of my way to patronize a pharmacy such as this rather than WalMart.

Carla why would the pro-lifers on here bring up porn and pornography addiction if they didn't want to discuss it? There is nothing obscene about the human anatomy or physiology. Maybe if people weren't conditioned to feel so dirty about it they wouldn't resort solely on the internet to fulfill their needs for sexual companionship.

And almost every single serial killer/sadist in history had abused animals. Now if you care to look at all the animal abuse that goes on in our country it wouldn't be such a shock to know that we have some sick people here.

Recently there was a case of a few college students who ate a hamster alive. Now almost all of the pro-lifers here are just fine with that, but you have a problem with a picture of a naked woman? And you wonder why our country is backwards?

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/weird/kids2/disorders_4.html

One of the number one signs that a child will grow up to become a psychopath is animal abuse. These kids learn how to block out love and embrace hate by hurting animals. No one will try to stop them from beating, setting on fire, etc, animals so they learn how to hurt others. Then they move on to humans. Do you think someone who cuts off the heads of people's pet dogs and cats is really a nice person?

Can't we love them both?

http://fun-blog.biz/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/baby-kitten.jpg

One of the number one signs that a child will grow up to become a psychopath is animal abuse. Do you think someone who cuts off the heads of people's pet dogs and cats is really a nice person?

Posted by: Jess at October 21, 2008 6:06 PM

++++

I agree. A child who abuses animals is MUCH more likely to grow up to be an abortionist...

I would imagine that after beheading a live cat with teeth and claws as a child, dismembering a docile unborn child who wraps her fingers around the killing instruments to help him would be a piece of cake for an adult.

Well there you go PJMama you get it. I hope you're raising your children to care for and respect all living things, trust me it will be well worth it when they grow up seeing how good it is to show kindness to those who need it the most. Babies humans and baby animals : )

Recently there was a case of a few college students who ate a hamster alive. Now almost all of the pro-lifers here are just fine with that, but you have a problem with a picture of a naked woman? And you wonder why our country is backwards?
Posted by: Jess at October 21, 2008 5:57 PM

No, Jess, I don't think anyone here pro-life or not is fine with eating hamsters alive. Pornography is about the degradation of women -- the objectification of women -- that is the problem that we have with it.

Recently there was a case of a few college students who ate a hamster alive. Now almost all of the pro-lifers here are just fine with that

Yuck! Jess, I don't think "almost all" are. Not even close.

Like Rae, I have to take the pill for a variety of incredibly serious health conditions (Including a bleeding disorder). I can bleed out, so its imperative I do NOT get a period, ever. The BCP has worked wonders for that aspect of treating my condition- and I'm a virgin, so I'm not using it for contraception. Some people DO need it for medical reasons, some of which can be life-threatening.

My best friend's husband is addicted to pornography. She has been horrified and ready to leave more times than I can count. It has taken a toll on their marriage. It is very real and very debilitating to those that are addicted and to those that them.

Posted by: Carla at October 21, 2008 3:26 PM
..............

Your friend's husband's 'addiction' to porn is a symptom of a much deeper problem that would not dissapear with the porn.
I'd be willing to bet that your friend is scapegoating her husband's abusive behavior to porn rather than facing the actual fact that her husband enjoys being abusive.
If this woman is truly a friend, I would like to strongly suggest that you urge your friend to seek serious professional assistance.
At the very least, tell your friend that the instinct that has urged her to get away from the man is not something to be sneered at. If she feels danger on any level, she needs to leave.

Thank you, Sally.
I did urge that in the early years when I found out. She left with the children and would not come back until he sought treatment for himself and also set them up in counseling as a couple. She left again in later years. There are many, many restrictions in this man's life and she is no longer ashamed to call him on anything. He is not physically abusive if that is what you are getting at.
It is not specifically about addiction to porn. It is a heart issue. A heart that consistently seeks what can only be found in Jesus.

I know of your care for any woman in a threatening relationship. I love you for it.

For any one to call me"woman hating" and "destructive of babies" just because I'm pro-choice is laughable ! On the contrary, pro-choicers are far more pro-women than anti-choicers, and are very concerned about them being seriously harmed or killed by the illegality of abortion, which is inevitably disastrous, and we do not hate infants or children at all. We want them to grow up without being doomed to poverty, malnutrition, phyasical and sexual abuse or neglect, woefully inadequate education and lack of medical care.
I'm not trying to FORCE any woman to have an abortion; I just believe that women must have that choice available to them.

The only unforced abortions are natural, i.e. miscarriages.

"Pro-choicers" are for FORCING women to abort.

They also FORCE the abortion upon the child.

Patricia,

I have watched Dancing with the Stars before, and I can assure you that every single dancer on there is talented. I haven't watched it recently because I think they overplay the show and make it lame, but the dancing aspect of it is awesome. Ballroom dancing/partner dancing is soooo much harder than regular dancing so I give all those people serious credit.

P.S. As for the topic thread, that's cool, this is America, he has a right to sell or not sell whatever he wants.

I also agree that I have never seen "pornoraphic" magazines in a convenient store, though. But maybe that's cause I'm not really looking or something. I'll see if I can find any the next time I go.

P.P.S.-My little girl has an interview with a talent agency on November 12!

Elizabeth,
Didn't 7-Elevens carry them behind the counter? Maybe not anymore?

Good luck to your little munchkin!

Robert,
It's quite obvious that your heart is in the right place, that you care about women and children and I commend you for it. I don't agree that pro-lifers care any less about them.

Advocating abortion as a solution to the REAL problems you stated, is kind of like the old saying, "throwing the baby out with the bath water". Quite literally actually. There needs to be a better solution. Do we keep aborting babies, pretending the problems go away with it, or do we just say ENOUGH! ABORTING! and work on solving the rest? I say lets go with the latter. The babies we can save may even be part of the solution. We have to believe that, IMO. God bless you.

Jess: "Recently there was a case of a few college students who ate a hamster alive. Now almost all of the pro-lifers here are just fine with that..."

Wha? Did you take a poll, or something? Where do you get off making that assertion?

Tell me if I'm out of line, but there's a difference between actual pornography and erotic images. The magazines that are probably being touted as 'pornography' are probably magazines like Playboy, and Hustler. It doesn't count as pornography because it doesn't display a sexual act.

I think you may be right Erin. The only place they're allowed to sell that stuff is in adult stores..at least I thought so. And Playboy and Hustler are pretty mild in comparison to THAT STUFF. But it doesn't bother me that this pharmacy chooses not to sell those mag's. If I went to that pharmacy, it would be one less magazine I have to turn over so my babe doesn't see half-naked women all the time when she's at the store. :)

You folks seem fixated on the "whys" of the pharmacy's decisions. None of those matters. If a pharmacy doesn't want to stock COSMO, or NATIONAL ENQUIRER, or BASEBALL DIGEST, or INSTYLE Magazine, or contraceptives, or cigarettes, or clothespins, or whatever, that is its right. We could be talking about press-on fingernails: if the store doesn't choose to carry them, it doesn't owe you or anyone else an explanation.

I do wonder how long the pharmacy will last considering that the majority of Americans are pro-choice...

Marissa,
Do you have some stats on that?

Perhaps the prolife folks of Chantilly, VA will make their voices heard and spend their hard earned money at this pharmacy.

Uhh....

birth control =/= "pro-abortion"

So... why?

For any one to call me"woman hating" and "destructive of babies" just because I'm pro-choice is laughable ! On the contrary, pro-choicers are far more pro-women than anti-choicers, and are very concerned about them being seriously harmed or killed by the illegality of abortion, which is inevitably disastrous, and we do not hate infants or children at all. We want them to grow up without being doomed to poverty, malnutrition, phyasical and sexual abuse or neglect, woefully inadequate education and lack of medical care.

Yeah, this is a joke. How can you be pro woman when you want to make women EXACTLY like men so that they can't have babies? How can you be pro woman when you want to take remove one of the ways a woman's femininity is apparent- her ability to receive the gift of a new life and nurture that life within herself in a sacrificial way. Buddy, not only do you NOT know what it means to be a woman, you have no idea what it means to be a man. My sympathies.
If you really believe that last statement you made, you'd be workiing towards making this world more equitable in the way resources and wealth are distributed. Your idea of equality is to kill those who are innocent and helpless by making that argument that all those babies aborted would have been, poor, disabled, criminals, unproductive citizens....
Reminds me of the 1930's..... so passe...

The pharmacy in question, Marissa, will be a breathe of fresh air. I wish my town had one, I'd switch immediately!

"If you really believe that last statement you made, you'd be working towards making this world more equitable in the way resources and wealth are distributed."

Careful there Patricia, Obama was called a socialist for less than that.

Jon: "Pro-choicers" are for FORCING women to abort.

That just proves you are not cognizant of reality.

How many women if given the facts about the child's development would actually choose life and either raise the child (with financial help if necessary and no, I am not talking welfare here) or place the child for adoption?

We have a few post abortive mothers (Carla for example) whose story is just one of thousands of women who needed the support that pro lifers DO provide but are not being allowed to provide because of the deathscorts doing all they can to block out the offers of real help.

There are women who are COERCED into abortion every day --- that's what Jon was probably talking about.

Yo La,

What kind of question is that? "the new guy"? Could you please show some respect?

Posted by: Janet at October 21, 2008 1:18 PM

I think I'm showing about as much respect as the "catholic pharmacy" is showing to the new pope.

I wonder if they would allow anti-war information to be posted in their windows. i know a bunch of nuns that are against the Iraq war that would love to post in thier pharmacy.

"If you really believe that last statement you made, you'd be working towards making this world more equitable in the way resources and wealth are distributed."

Careful there Patricia, Obama was called a socialist for less than that.

Posted by: hal at October 22, 2008 7:57 PM

stupid. go away....

stupid? Did you see how the crazies went after Obama for saying "spread the wealth around?"

How many women if given the facts about the child's development would actually choose life and either raise the child (with financial help if necessary and no, I am not talking welfare here) or place the child for adoption?

Liz, if it's a "child" then it's not what we're talking about, here.

If you mean legal abortion, then some would be affected by seeing the development, and would change their decision. Of course, some would choose to have abortions versus not, since they would have been previously misinformed, a la the "brainwaves at six weeks" crowd.

Yo @ 8:26,

I think I'm showing about as much respect as the "catholic pharmacy" is showing to the new pope.

I wonder if they would allow anti-war information to be posted in their windows. i know a bunch of nuns that are against the Iraq war that would love to post in thier pharmacy.

Are you saying the Catholic pharmacy is being disrespectful to the Pope? I don't follow. Do you have a question about Pope Benedict or Pope John Paul II?

Regarding your second comment, it would be up to the owner if he wanted to put anti-war posters in his window. Your point?

Hal,

The only thing CRAZY is the idea that people who've worked hard for their money should HAVE to spread their wealth around. I think people who have more should WANT to give money to help others in need, but I don't think just going in and TAKING it and deciding where it goes is the answer.

John, why must you be so hateful?

This is making me very sad. So many people acting so hateful. Can we not have a difference in opinion without despising one another? Can't we have intelligent debates without gross generalizations and personal attacks being thrown around?

I think my laughing Jesus picture is crying.

:(

Elizabeth, all Obama is talking about is raising the top rate for people over $250,000 in income (not gross receipts) from 36% to 39%. So, if Joe the Plumber made $270,000 in income, he'd pay an extra $600. No one wants to pay taxes, but I think he can handle that (or could if he actually ever made that much). As McCain said in the 2000 election, nothing wrong with those making the most paying a little more.

Even Patricia agrees:

"If you really believe that last statement you made, you'd be working towards making this world more equitable in the way resources and wealth are distributed."

Thank you, Sally.
I did urge that in the early years when I found out. She left with the children and would not come back until he sought treatment for himself and also set them up in counseling as a couple. She left again in later years. There are many, many restrictions in this man's life and she is no longer ashamed to call him on anything. He is not physically abusive if that is what you are getting at.
It is not specifically about addiction to porn. It is a heart issue. A heart that consistently seeks what can only be found in Jesus.

I know of your care for any woman in a threatening relationship. I love you for it.

Posted by: Carla at October 22, 2008 6:47 AM
................................

Pay attention to your friend and her situation Carla.

Doug 8:19, you know exactly what I mean. My words at 9:52 AM on October 22 say exactly what I mean. And I've previously argued with you to explain what I mean. The meaning is plain, more natural than you and Robert's.

Unlike you, Doug, a pregnant woman doesn't need to be forced to continue a pregnancy. Her body does so automatically; it follows the design to finish what it began. If her body doesn't, the abortion is either natural (a miscarriage) or forced (induced). "Pro-choicers" are obviously not in favour of natural abortions; miscarriages are not elective. "Pro-choicers" are, therefore, in favour of forcing an expectant mother to abort. If she so chooses, they are in favour violating her body to sever and kill her child.

Induced abortion is always deadly force, i.e. violence. The government is also force. Its job is to counter violence and provide justice.

Induced abortion is a crime against humanity and a sin against God. No amount of deceptive representation with words should be allowed to disguise the hideous reality of induced abortion.

Induced abortion is not part of reality as God established reality. It is only a part of that alternative reality, the paved road to hell. Alternative morality and alternative lifestyles are also offered along this road. Heaven and hell are themselves alternatives. A human being may take his pick.

Will do, Sally.
My friend and I have been buds for almost 30 years. :)

The alleged abortifacient effects of conventional birth control pills are purely speculative:

http://www.aaplog.org/oral.htm

Moreover, hormonal contraceptives have other medical uses, such as controlling endometriosis.

Condoms are certainly not abortifacient.

This pharmacy provides nothing but ammunition against the pro-life movement. It should limit its crusade to opposing the "morning after" pill, which has well-established abortifacient properties.

Hi HuckFinn,

It's not necessarily about oral contraceptives being an abortifacient or not. It's about all forms of artificial contraception being intrinsically evil. Robert Laird obviously believes that anything that intentionally severs the procreative aspect of the conjugal act is gravely disordered, and hence has decided not to sell products that are designed to do this. God love you.

HuckFinn,
Endometriosis can be controlled naturally without the ingestion of synthetic hormones.

See the book What Your Dr. May Not Tell You About PreMenopause by Dr. John Lee

Bobby,

Laird is entitled to his legalistic views, but he shouldn't conflate them with the pro-life cause.

Carla,

My wife has seen many doctors and tried various treatments for endometriosis, but only the pill has worked.

Thanks HuckFinn,
I understand. If you wanted a more natural approach then I would read the book. If you don't, then don't. :)

Huck Finn,

Laird is entitled to his legalistic views, but he shouldn't conflate them with the pro-life cause.

I don't see what's "legalistic" about Dr. Laird's views. Can you explain?

I'm just catching up on comments. I don't know why but this (below) cracked me up.. lol

Recently there was a case of a few college students who ate a hamster alive. Now almost all of the pro-lifers here are just fine with that

Yuck! Jess, I don't think "almost all" are. Not even close.

"This pharmacy provides nothing but ammunition against the pro-life movement."

How? It's their pharmacy; they can decide to sell or refuse to sell whatever the hell they want. What's the big deal? You want what one pharmacy doesn't sell; go to another.

Jon: "Pro-choicers" are for FORCING women to abort.

"That just proves you are not cognizant of reality."

Doug 8:19, you know exactly what I mean. My words at 9:52 AM on October 22 say exactly what I mean. And I've previously argued with you to explain what I mean. The meaning is plain, more natural than you and Robert's.

If you mean what you said - that Pro-Choicers are for forcing women to abort - then you're wrong.
.....

Unlike you, Doug, a pregnant woman doesn't need to be forced to continue a pregnancy. Her body does so automatically; it follows the design to finish what it began. If her body doesn't, the abortion is either natural (a miscarriage) or forced (induced).

Some pregnancies are unwanted, and what you want is a policy change, a change in the laws, etc., it order to try and force some women to continue them. If you don't want such changes, Jon, then I am wrong, but it's obvious you do.
.....

"Pro-choicers" are obviously not in favour of natural abortions; miscarriages are not elective. "Pro-choicers" are, therefore, in favour of forcing an expectant mother to abort. If she so chooses, they are in favour violating her body to sever and kill her child.

That's just nuts. Pro-Choicers are not "for natural abortions," no, if the pregnancy is wanted. The loss of a wanted pregnancy is a very sad thing for many people, and Pro-Choicers know that, and have no reason to want those people to be unhappy. If a woman has an unwanted pregnancy and is intending to have an abortion, and then miscarries, is that a bad thing?
.....

Induced abortion is always deadly force, i.e. violence. The government is also force. Its job is to counter violence and provide justice.

Oh come on - the premise here is that you want changes in law and gov't - to try and force women to continue unwanted pregnancies. You want to take away the freedom that women now have, and many people are against that.

Induced abortion is always deadly force, i.e. violence. The government is also force. Its job is to counter violence and provide justice.

Oh come on - the premise here is that you want changes in law and gov't - to try and force women to continue unwanted pregnancies. You want to take away the freedom that women now have, and many people are against that.

Posted by: Doug at October 24, 2008 11:12 AM

A clear example of Doug not being able to comprehend a simple statement that abortion is a violent action resulting from a sexual act.

PS. You'll going to be outta work Doug. The demand for electrical energy is going to be reduced greatly under the O being unable to do nothing to stop the Depression that is coming.

The great difference is that the government will not be able to come to the rescue as they did in the 30's.

And your stupidity of writing that automotive sales is up 39%, is the greatest blunder in market analysis I have ever seen written anywhere at any time.

You've got two years max, before your another unemployed Energy employee from a lack of demand. The closing of many GM,Ford,Chrysler,(especially Canada) and foreign auto plants is the first wave before other high energy users follow the auto industry into bankruptcy or reorganization.

The best part. The debtbeat generation has spent your attributed assests into junk housing, worthless auto loans, defaulted student loans, and much more worthless promises to pay what they owe.

The joke is on you Doug. All those debtbeats geners are acting just as a women with a unwanted pregnancy. They have aborted all their unwanted debt, and failed to act upon a unwanted financial situation in life by just handing you a dead rotting financial balance sheet(hidden as well as a aborted human being in a incinerator) of aborted debt.

Your being sacrificed, aborted financially yourself Doug, eaten up by your philosophy of unwanted acts of life must kill unwanted acts of life. Kill the debt, says the debtbeat geners, and hand the corpse to Doug's attributed assets.

And the dogmatic Doug's answer. Why I am richer today then yesterday. Doug a "three letter word"---------------L I A R.

Hi yllas. Seeing that Hallowe'en is next week, it's appropriate that you've returned from your little hiatus.

"Oh come on - the premise here is that you want changes in law and gov't - to try and force women to continue unwanted pregnancies. You want to take away the freedom that women now have, and many people are against that."

A clear example of Doug not being able to comprehend a simple statement that abortion is a violent action resulting from a sexual act.

No, the point is that Jon indeed does want a policy change - that's the bottom line. He's not wanting the will of the pregnant woman to determine things. He's wanting his own will to hold sway, and many people are against that.

You'll going to be outta work Doug. The demand for electrical energy is going to be reduced greatly under the O being unable to do nothing to stop the Depression that is coming.

I think you're as silly as ever, yllas. We might actually see a drop in demand, yes, but that by no means is a given, yet. I'd say the increase in demand will taper off some, for sure. Either way, the stuff we do is not affected all that much. We mostly work on older transformers. Come what may - I don't think we'll see people willingly having their power turned off, and it's one of the last things to go.
.....

The great difference is that the government will not be able to come to the rescue as they did in the 30's.

You know - I agree with this, in large measure. The question is how much can be gained by devaluing the Dollar and taking on more debt. I do think we are in for some tough economic times, and I've been saying that for years. The average American is facing not only a time of not always having "more and more" but also of actually havind a decline in standard of living. I think Obama will be a one-term President because of this. Same for McCain, if at this point he has any realistic chance.
.....

And your stupidity of writing that automotive sales is up 39%, is the greatest blunder in market analysis I have ever seen written anywhere at any time.

Heh - the stupidity is you still being so confused about this stuff.

The sales we've talked about is past history. It's fact, regardless of what comes in the time ahead. Yes, the world economy is slowing, no question about it. But it's silly to act like the past is somehow magically changed by this.

yllas: You've got two years max, before your another unemployed Energy employee from a lack of demand. The closing of many GM,Ford,Chrysler,(especially Canada) and foreign auto plants is the first wave before other high energy users follow the auto industry into bankruptcy or reorganization.

And as so often, you're merely blathering about stuff that you know little or nothing about.
.....

The best part. The debtbeat generation has spent your attributed assests into junk housing, worthless auto loans, defaulted student loans, and much more worthless promises to pay what they owe.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. My assets are not those. My assets are wealth-producing companies, and property of "real value." Yes, in Dollar terms stock share prices go down as well as up. I don't claim to know when the market will bottom, but we are setting up for some uber-fantastic buys. I have royalty trusts and some limited partnerships and master limited partnerships paying over 10% in yield, some nearly 18% at present, and that money will be put to good use in the future.
.....

The joke is on you Doug. All those debtbeats geners are acting just as a women with a unwanted pregnancy. They have aborted all their unwanted debt, and failed to act upon a unwanted financial situation in life by just handing you a dead rotting financial balance sheet(hidden as well as a aborted human being in a incinerator) of aborted debt.

I suspect you are are drinking or doing some drugs again, but we are all affected by the economy, no? If I was retired and had a lot of my wealth in stocks, I'd be bumming indeed. What we are heading for, however, for those with money to make use of it, is a great time to buy.
......

Your being sacrificed, aborted financially yourself Doug, eaten up by your philosophy of unwanted acts of life must kill unwanted acts of life. Kill the debt, says the debtbeat geners, and hand the corpse to Doug's attributed assets.

Again, you just don't know what you are talking about. Hisman said that we should "forgive the debt" - that's the only "kill the debt" stuff I've seen. In reality debts the size of the US's are never paid off. There is no "killing" it. In the end it will be either go via hyperinflation or by outright default.
......

And the dogmatic Doug's answer. Why I am richer today then yesterday. Doug a "three letter word"---------------L I A R.

Heh - we can see who the liar is here, yllas.

I don't say I'm richer today than yesterday, necessarily. Obviously, things will go down as well as up. The world is not at an end, however, and commerce and consumption will continue. A Dollar now buys a lot more wealth-producing company that it did a year ago, in many cases. One needs a place to live, and a house will still be a house. An ounce of gold will still be just that. People will still use lots of energy, etc.

You reminded me of a joke:

"There are three kinds of people in the world - those who can count, and those who can't."

This pharmacy is great news. People following their conscience. If Obama gets elected and passes federal funding for abortions I will quit paying taxes (as a consciensious objector) and milk his entitlement gravy train instead to take funds out of the system.

Doug said, "If you mean what you said - that Pro-Choicers are for forcing women to abort - then you're wrong."

Doug merely proves that he is, in his own words, "not cognizant of reality." He refuses to acknowledge the nature of things and the meaning of violence. Not wanting to recognize such premises, he ignores them, fails to follow the logic, and illogically accuses me of a different premise. Of course I'm against forced abortions, but I don't try to argue against them on the basis of my will.

According to Wikipedia, a premise is a "claim that is a reason (or element of a set of reasons) for, or objection against, some other claim. In other words, it is a statement presumed true within the context of an argument toward a conclusion." Read again my argument (following two paragraphs), and you will see one premise already in the second sentence. It has to do with the nature of things, especially the design and purpose of a woman (as she is a woman and not a man). You will see another premise in the first sentence of the second paragraph. It has to do with the meaning of force.

Unlike Doug, a pregnant woman doesn't need to be forced to continue a pregnancy. Her body does so automatically; it follows the design to finish what it began. If her body doesn't, the abortion is either natural (a miscarriage) or forced (induced). "Pro-choicers" are obviously not in favour of natural abortions; miscarriages are not elective. "Pro-choicers" are, therefore, in favour of forcing an expectant mother to abort. If she so chooses, they are in favour violating her body to sever and kill her child.

Induced abortion is always deadly force, i.e. violence. The government is also force. Its job is to counter violence and provide justice.

"Anonymous": a pregnant woman doesn't need to be forced to continue a pregnancy.

I know what you mean, but that is not what the issue is. Granted, there is such a thing as biological reality.

The issue is whether we allow women to retain the freedom they now have, or if we attempt to bring legal force against them should they have abortions, in an effort to alter their behavior.

Pro-Choices are not for going against the will of the women themselves. You are. You are for trying to use legal force against them.

You speak of "premises," well the premise here is that you want policy change.

Anonymous 9:31 was me.

Doug said, "I know what you mean, but that is not what the issue is."

That is the issue of my contention with Robert Berger, which began our current exchange.

It also really is the larger topic which this website deals with. It is, because most people agree that violence is wrong. Who really violates the woman? I'm not even speaking of the child, but even in the case of the woman we must conclude that the "pro-choicer," not the pro-lifer, more truly forces, i.e. violates, the woman. As you concede, there is such a thing as biological reality. From another thread, there is also such a thing as perverted wills.

Doug said, 'You speak of "premises," well the premise here is that you want policy change.'

Nonsense! I've already explained, a little too patiently as it was actually you who first spoke of "premises." You had said that I had a premise. Actually, as I explained, I did not have this premise. Now you're misrepresenting the course of the debate and refusing to deal fairly with what I've said about the premises.

As I've already said, according to Wikipedia, a premise is a "claim that is a reason (or element of a set of reasons) for, or objection against, some other claim. In other words, it is a statement presumed true within the context of an argument toward a conclusion." Read again my argument (following two paragraphs), and you will see one premise already in the second sentence. It has to do with the nature of things, especially the design and purpose of a woman (as she is a woman and not a man). You will see another premise in the first sentence of the second paragraph. It has to do with the meaning of force.

Unlike you, a pregnant woman doesn't need to be forced to continue a pregnancy. Her body does so automatically; it follows the design to finish what it began. If her body doesn't, the abortion is either natural (a miscarriage) or forced (induced). "Pro-choicers" are obviously not in favour of natural abortions; miscarriages are not elective. "Pro-choicers" are, therefore, in favour of forcing an expectant mother to abort. If she so chooses, they are in favour violating her body to sever and kill her child.

Induced abortion is always deadly force, i.e. violence. The government is also force. Its job is to counter violence and provide justice.

Anonymous 11:33 was I.

It also really is the larger topic which this website deals with. It is, because most people agree that violence is wrong.

Yet is taking away the freedom that women have a good thing? A majority of Americans say no.

It is not that "violence" you speak of that really is the issue. Many surgical procedures are "violent" that way. What the real issue is if one is more wanting the unborn life to continue, or one more wants women to retain the rights they now have.
.....

Who really violates the woman? I'm not even speaking of the child, but even in the case of the woman we must conclude that the "pro-choicer," not the pro-lifer, more truly forces, i.e. violates, the woman.

Not at all - again, what is at stake is being in accordance with her wishes, or not.
.....

As you concede, there is such a thing as biological reality. From another thread, there is also such a thing as perverted wills.

Not really "perverted wills" but rather either going with the woman's will or going against it.

Doug said, 'You speak of "premises," well the premise here is that you want policy change.'

Nonsense! I've already explained, a little too patiently as it was actually you who first spoke of "premises." You had said that I had a premise. Actually, as I explained, I did not have this premise. Now you're misrepresenting the course of the debate and refusing to deal fairly with what I've said about the premises.

Well, Jon, I disagree.

Nobody is "objecting to biological reality" here. That's a given, and you and I, for example, are agreed upon it. We can say that the biological reality it also a premise here.
.....

As I've already said, according to Wikipedia, a premise is a "claim that is a reason (or element of a set of reasons) for, or objection against, some other claim. In other words, it is a statement presumed true within the context of an argument toward a conclusion." Read again my argument (following two paragraphs), and you will see one premise already in the second sentence. It has to do with the nature of things, especially the design and purpose of a woman (as she is a woman and not a man). You will see another premise in the first sentence of the second paragraph. It has to do with the meaning of force.

Unlike you, a pregnant woman doesn't need to be forced to continue a pregnancy. Her body does so automatically; it follows the design to finish what it began.

Okay then - agreed that sometimes (not always since there are miscarriages) the body will continue a pregnancy, and yes - we can say that women "are designed to have kids."

So what's the argument? Just because women "can have kids" in general does not mean that a given woman should be forced to have them. Again - I do accept your biological premises, and hence they are not the issue. You and I can agree on them all day, and so what? The abortion debate remains.
.....

If her body doesn't, the abortion is either natural (a miscarriage) or forced (induced). "Pro-choicers" are obviously not in favour of natural abortions; miscarriages are not elective. "Pro-choicers" are, therefore, in favour of forcing an expectant mother to abort. If she so chooses, they are in favour violating her body to sever and kill her child.

Pro-Choicers are in favor of what the woman wants. If her pregnancy is unwanted, and she has a miscarriage, and is glad she did, overall, then Pro-Choicers are not going to be against that. No, it wasn't elective, but her unwanted pregnancy ended, just as her having an abortion would have done, and in this case it's what the woman wanted.
.....

Induced abortion is always deadly force, i.e. violence. The government is also force. Its job is to counter violence and provide justice.

No, the gov't's job is not to counter all "violence," then. And it is not "justice" to take away the freedom that women have - there is no agreement on that.

Here again - what you want is policy change. You want the gov't to take away or restrict the rights that women have in this matter.

Anonymous 11:33 was I.

Posted by: Jon at October 25, 2008 11:34 AM

No, John. "It was me."
:-)

I'm not sure all grammar handbooks would agree, Janet. Technically I think that I'm right. Was is a copula (linking) verb. But so many people now say, "It was me," that probably you're right. I use the A Beka grammar handbook, but I don't have it with me to check.

I realize that you were just teasing me. You were successful. :) I was pretty good at grammar in school, so I have a sense of pride about it that makes me susceptible to a fall.

Also, this conversation is much more profitable than my conversation with Doug. At a certain point, a fist fight probably is more profitable and even more rational than a debate. We've both said what we've had to say, and neither of us is going to budge. We're enemies. But I wouldn't want to have a physical fight with Doug anymore than I would want a physical fight with the husband of a beautiful woman.

I don't have much practice in fist fights. I do admire the courage of our soldiers (Canadians in my case, Americans in yours).

Oops! Anonymous 10:17 was me.

Technically I think that I'm right.

Jon, I think you are. My wife says that's a predicate nominative - it's the same as the subject of the sentence. It can be turned around, to "I was 'Anonymous.'

Oops! Anonymous 10:17 was me.

Ha, ha! Good one, Jon!
. . . . . . .
"Predicate nominative" - I stand corrected.

Thank you, Doug.

Janet, I certainly see both sides there.

Seems natural to me to say, "It was me..."