Stojan Adasevic

Per LifeSiteNews.com:

The Spanish daily La Razon has published an article on the pro-life conversion of a former "champion of abortion." Stojan Adasevic, who performed 48,000 abortions, sometimes up to 35 per day, is now the most important pro-life leader in Serbia, after spending 26 years as the most renowned abortion doctor in the country.

A Freeper has posted a more detailed story on Adesevic, originally published in Love One Another Catholic magazine in 2004, a triumphal read, although gory and heartbreaking along the way....

Stojan Adasevic will never forget the day he was organizing the filing cabinet in the doctors' room. He was a medical student at the time. A number of gynecologists entered the room. Paying no attention to the student crouched over a pile of papers in the corner, they began swapping stories about their medical practice.

stojan.jpg

Dr. Rado Ignatovic recalled a patient who had come to him for an abortion. The procedure failed because the doctor had been unable to align the cervix. As the gynecologists went on discussing the woman's history, Stojan, who had been listening in, suddenly stiffened. He realized that the woman under discussion -- a former dentist at the nearby clinic -- was his mother.

"She's dead now" -- observed one of the doctors -- but I wonder what happened to the unwanted child?" Stojan couldn't resist. "I'm the child!" he said, getting up. Silence fell over the room. Seconds later the doctors were walking out.

Over the years Dr. Adasevic would have cause to recall that event many times. It was perfectly clear to him: he owed his life to the fact of a failed abortion. He would never make such a blunder himself. Many women were referred to him because of difficulty in aligning the cervix. This was never a problem for Stojan. He became the best abortionist in Belgrade....

Before long he had surpassed his master in the profession -- Dr. Ignatovic, to whose incompetence he owed his life. "The secret lies in training the hand through frequent procedures" he would say, citing the German proverb: Übung macht Meister (practice makes perfect). Faithful to this maxim, he would perform from twenty to thirty abortions a day. His record was thirty-five abortions in one day. Today he has difficulty reckoning up the abortions he performed in his twenty-six years of practice. He estimates anywhere between 48,000 and 62,000.

For years he remained convinced that abortion, as taught in the medical faculties and textbooks, was a surgical procedure not unlike that of removing an appendix. The only difference was in the organ removed: a piece of intestine in the one case, and embryonic tissue in the other. Doubts began to arise during the 1980s when ultrasound technology came to Yugoslavian hospitals. It was then that Adasevic first saw on the USG monitor what had until then been invisible to him -- the inside of a woman's womb, a live child, sucking its thumb, moving its arms and legs. As often as not, fragments of that child would soon be lying on the table beside him. "I saw without seeing -- he recalls today. -- Everything changed after I started having the dreams".

Dr. Adasevic's dreams

Actually, it was the same recurring dream. It haunted him every night, day after day, week after week, month after month. He dreamed he was walking in a sunlit meadow. Beautiful flowers grew all around. The air was thick with colored butterflies. It was warm and pleasant, yet, despite this, some anxious feeling oppressed him. Suddenly the meadow was filled with laughing and running children. They were playing ball. In age, they ranged from three or four to about twenty years. All were strikingly beautiful. One boy in particular, and two of the girls, seemed strangely familiar, but he could not recall where he had seen them. When he tried to speak to them, they ran off in terror, screaming. The entire scene was presided over by a man in a black habit who watched intently in silence.

Every night Adasevic would wake in terror and stay awake till morning. Herbal remedies and pills were useless. One night, he became distraught in his dream and began chasing the fleeing children. He caught one of them, but the child cried out in terror: "Help! Murderer! Save me from the murderer!" At that moment the man dressed in black, turned into an eagle, swept down, and pulled the child away. The doctor woke up, his heart thumping like a hammer in his ribs. The room was cold, yet he was hot, drenched in sweat. In the morning he decided to see a psychiatrist. Since there were no immediate openings, he booked an appointment. That night he decided he would ask the man in his dreams to identify himself. This he did. The stranger said: "Even if I told you, my name would mean nothing to you". When the doctor persisted, the man finally replied: "I am called Thomas Aquinas". Indeed, the name meant nothing to Adasevic. It was the first time he had heard it. The man in black continued: "Why don't you ask who the children are. Don't you recognize them?" When the doctor said he didn't, he replied: "Not true. You know them very well. These are the children you killed while performing abortions". "How is that possible?" countered Adasevic. "These are grown children. I have never killed born children". Thomas replied: "Do you not know that here, on this side of the eschaton, children continue to grow?" The Doctor refused to yield: "But I have never killed a twenty-year-old boy". "You killed him twenty years ago" replied the monk, "when he was three months old".

It was then that Adasevic recognized the faces of the twenty-year-old boy and the two girls. They resembled people he knew well, for whom he had performed abortions over the years. The boy looked like a close friend of Adasevic's. Stojan had performed the abortion on his wife twenty years ago. In the two girls the doctor recognized their mothers, one of whom happened to be Stojan's cousin. Upon awaking, he decided he would never perform another abortion in his life.

I held a beating heart in my hand

Waiting for him upon his arrival at the hospital that morning was a cousin along with his girlfriend. They had booked an abortion with him. Four months pregnant, the woman was about to do away with her ninth consecutive child. Adasevic refused, but his cousin was so importunate that he gave in: OK, but this was the very last time. On the USG monitor he clearly saw the child with its thumb in its mouth. Stretching the uterus, he inserted the forceps, took hold of something, and pulled. In the jaws of the forceps was a little arm. He placed it on the table, but in such a way that one of the limbs' nerve endings touched a drop of spilled iodine. Suddenly, the arm began to twitch. The nurse standing beside him almost screamed out. Just like frogs' legs in a physiology lab! Adasevic shuddered, but went on with the abortion. Again he inserted the forceps, gripped, and pulled. This time it was a leg. Just as he was thinking: "Better not let it touch that drop of alcohol", a nurse standing behind him dropped a tray of surgical instruments. Startled by the crash, the doctor released the forceps, and the leg landed right beside the arm. It too began to move.

The staff had never seen anything like it: human limbs twitching on the table. Adasevic decided to mash up what was left in the womb, and pull it out in a formless mass. He began mashing, squashing, crushing. Upon withdrawing the forceps, now certain that he had reduced everything to a pulp, he produced a human heart! The organ was still beating. Weaker and weaker it beat, until it stopped altogether. It was then that he realized he had killed a human being. The world turned dark around him. He cannot recall how long this lasted. Suddenly he felt a tug on his arm. A nurse's terrified voice called out: Doctor Adasevic! Doctor Adasevic! The patient was bleeding. For the first time in years, the doctor began praying earnestly: "Lord! Save not me, but this woman". Normally it could take up to ten minutes to clean the womb of all remaining embryonic matter. This time two insertions of the instrument through the vagina were enough to complete the task. When Adasevic removed his gloves, he knew this was the last abortion he would ever perform.

The pail: instrument of abortion

When Stojan informed the head of the hospital of his decision, there was a considerable stir. Never before in a Belgrade hospital had a gynecologist refused to perform abortions. Pressure was brought to bear on him. They cut his salary in half. His daughter was fired from her job. His son "failed" his university entrance examinations. He was attacked in the press and on television. The Socialist State -- they said -- had provided him with an education so that he could perform abortions, and now he was carrying out sabotage against the State. Two years of persecution brought him to the brink of nervous exhaustion. He was on the point of asking the hospital administrator to reassign him to abortion duty, when Thomas Aquinas appeared to him in a dream. Patting him on his shoulder, Thomas said: "You are my good friend. Continue your struggle". Adasevic did not go to the administrator. He decided to fight on.

He got involved in the pro-life movement. He traveled throughout Serbia, lecturing and giving talks on abortion. Twice he succeeded in airing on Yugoslav state television Bernard Nathanson's The Silent Scream, a USG recording of an actual abortion. In the early 1990s, thanks largely to Adasevic's activism, the Yugoslav parliament passed a decree protecting the rights of the unborn. The decree went to President Slobodan Milosevic, who refused to sign it. Then the war broke out, and the decree fell into abeyance. As for the war, Adasevic wonders: "To what else can we attribute the slaughter that took place here in the Balkans if not our alienation from God and lack of respect for human life". And to make his point he describes what is common practice in Serbia: "Since our laws protect the life of the child only from the moment of its first breath, that is, from the instant it utters its first cry, abortions are legal in the seventh, eighth, and even ninth month of pregnancy. Actually the word "abortion" has no place here, since it applies more to miscarriages. Beside the birthing seat stands a bucket of water. Before the child has a chance to utter a cry, you stop up its mouth and plunge it under water. Officially this is an abortion, and it is all perfectly legal, since the child never draws a breath".

Here Adasevic likes to cite Mother Teresa of Calcutta: "if a mother can kill her own child, what is there to prevent you and me from killing one another?" Today, most abortions are performed in private clinics, which do not release figures on aborted pregnancies. Adasevic estimates that for every twenty-five children conceived barely one live birth results. Twenty-four beings are destroyed. "What further complicates statistical analysis in this area -- he observes -- is the use of abortifacients such as the IUD and the RU-486 pill, which are officially classified as contraceptives. The IUD is an abortifacient; for the coil acts as a sword, which severs the tiny human being from its source of food in the womb. It is a terrible death. A human being dies of starvation in a place that is filled with nourishment.

"This is a real war, waged by the born upon the unborn -- he adds. -- In this war I have crossed the front several times: first as an unborn child condemned to die, then as an abortionist myself, and now as a pro-life apostle. "I have also become interested in the life of Thomas Aquinas, about whom I knew nothing before. I have often wondered why he appeared in my dream, and not other saints, especially since he is a Catholic saint, and I am Orthodox. To explain this, I started studying Thomas' writings. Guess what I found? According to Aquinas, human life begins 40 days after fertilization in the case of men, and 80 days in the case of women. So what is a child in those preceding days? Nothing? I think what Thomas said gives him no peace in the eschaton. Mind you, it should be stated that Thomas accepted this view from Aristotle. Aristotle was the great authority then. Thomas allowed himself to be influenced by his view, and committed an error.

"It was a long time before I grasped the fact that a child in the mother's womb is a living person, that it is a living person not from the time it draws its first breath, as the communist professors taught us, but from the instant the human embryo is formed, that is, from the moment the spermatozoon joins with the egg cell".

[HT: readers Arina and Kris]


Comments:

Powerful story.

Posted by: segamon at November 14, 2008 12:30 PM


If this...abortionist...could have a change of heart...maybe, just maybe...if we pray hard enough...maybe Obama could, too?

"Anything is possible with God" as the saying goes.

Posted by: RSD at November 14, 2008 12:35 PM


Wow, that is hard to read, but powerful.

Posted by: Andy at November 14, 2008 12:47 PM


Paging SOMG...what are YOUR nightmares like?

Posted by: carder at November 14, 2008 12:56 PM


Yes we should pray because it ultimately is the only way to change hearts. We of course need to work hard but we can only do this with God's help.

Posted by: Jeff at November 14, 2008 1:10 PM


carder,
I'm sure he'd say there were none, if he were not banned.

Posted by: Janet at November 14, 2008 1:11 PM


Wow. Just...wow. That gave me chills and tears at the same time.

God is moving in hearts. It's like a "covert operation" of the Holy Spirit. What we see on the outside is not necessarily indicative of what is happening on the inside of people's lives.

And even communism cannot keep out the Truth.

Posted by: Kel at November 14, 2008 1:21 PM


We have received a lot of emails from American citizens asking what they can do to be heard regarding the issues pending before the U.S. Supreme Court. Although we cannot tell you to do anything, we can answer your questions and inform you what is available so you may be heard.

As citizens, you can individually write letters to each of the Court Justices addressing your concerns with respect to Mr. Obama's fulfillment of the requirements to serve as the President of the United States laid out in Article II, Section I of The United States Constitution.

United States Supreme Court
1 First Street NE
Washington DC 20543

The Supreme Court Justices are as follows:

Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts
Supreme Court Justice John Stevens
Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia
Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy
Supreme Court Justice David Souter
Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas
Supreme Court Justice Ruth Ginsburg
Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer
Supreme Court Justice Samual Alito

Posted by: James at November 14, 2008 1:26 PM


Hal and Doug,

I'm trying to ask this from a neutral, non-threatening position: What do you think of this conversion story? Of doctors like Nathanson and Adasevic who used to perform abortions and now believe it is such a barbaric, horrible practice? While I know you don't agree with them, would a testimony like this (someone who was intimately involved in the abortion industry) hold more sway with you than a pro-lifer like me who has never been in an abortion situation? I guess I'm wondering what reaction, if any, a pro-choicer has to this man.

Posted by: Michael at November 14, 2008 1:58 PM


Thanks for asking Michael. I don't have much of a reaction. Of the thousands of doctors who perform abortions (10s of thousands?) the fact that some change their mind doesn't surprise me. Does it hold more sway than the opinion of someone who never was pro choice? Probably. But this is a pretty rare occurance, for every doctor that feels this way, there are 10,000 doctors who perform abortions with no regrets. That says something too.

Let's improve contraception, let's improve non surgerical abortion for the first trimester, and let's outlaw third trimester abortions. How's that?

Posted by: Hal at November 14, 2008 2:15 PM


===Let's improve contraception, let's improve non surgerical abortion for the first trimester, and let's outlaw third trimester abortions. How's that?===

Hal, I appreciate your response. I'll agree with you on your third proposal, and we'll disagree on the other two. :)

As a Catholic, I'll admit I'm fascinated by the Aquinas aspect of the dream. To that degree, the Communists may have tried to keep the Roman Catholic Church under wraps, but God shows he can get around any and all barriers imposed by man. Dr. Adasevic certainly showed great courage in the face of persecution, and I pray that these days he sleeps in peace.

Posted by: Michael at November 14, 2008 2:30 PM


A very profound, disturbing and truthful testimony.

His dream reminded me of my own. I was pregnant, The same day that the doctor said I was pregnant, my mom was diagnosed with 4th stage lung cancer. On the advice of a few people around me, including my boyfriend, I scheduled an abortion. I couldn't get in for 10 days because it was so early -- I had only just missed my period. I hated to wait because I had to help my mom and I didn't want to think about my problem. Everyone said I shouldn't trouble my mom with my problem when she was so sick. I actually put the abortion out of mind and focused on my mom's health and my disintegrating relationship with my boyfriend.

A couple of days before the appointment I had the most vivid dream of my life. I was walking in a beautiful forested place; it was lovely. I walked beside a stream until I started seeing bits and pieces of babies and blood coming down the stream. When I looked up and saw a figure that was sitting on a rock singing with glee and slicing infants apart with a huge knife. It was the scariest, most revolting thing I ever saw.

I woke up, clear awake and got the message. I cancelled the appointment. My mom died 3 months later, still loving me and hoping I had a wonderful baby. My daughter was born 4 months after that - it still scares me to think that I ever made the appointment and was able to just put it out of my mind for a week and not think about it.

18 years ago God saved my daughter and me with a dream.

Posted by: No Name at November 14, 2008 2:37 PM


No Name,

God bless you, your daughter, and your mother. May He likewise appear to all who are considering abortion.

Posted by: Michael at November 14, 2008 2:44 PM


No Name,
Thank you for sharing that. So grateful you canceled your appt.
18 years ago I went through with it. I know my baby girl I named Aubrey waits for me in heaven. :)

Posted by: Carla at November 14, 2008 3:17 PM


Carla --

I'm sending you a hug. You and Aubrey are in my prayers.

Posted by: No Name at November 14, 2008 3:35 PM


Thanks No Name!! Hugs to you and your daughter as well!!

Posted by: Carla at November 14, 2008 4:27 PM


Let's improve contraception, let's improve non surgerical abortion for the first trimester, and let's outlaw third trimester abortions. How's that?

Hal,

I heartily endorse all three, if you mean the word "improve" in the sense of "I hope your cancer will improve."


Posted by: The Raving Atheist at November 14, 2008 5:10 PM


That abortionist faced up to his many evil deeds in his lifetime. For those that do not, I can only imagine it will be much, much worse when they finally do. And I'm just an agnostic.

Posted by: Doyle at November 14, 2008 5:20 PM


I too aborted a baby I call Aubrey. And one I call Andrew. How I wish a dream would have swayed me from doing this, but I am forgiven and know I will one day be with them. I only pray the hard hearts that cannot see what a "woman's right" can lead to can understand the pain abortion brings. I love this story and thank God He saw fit to deliver this man from this evil thing.

Posted by: laura at November 14, 2008 6:33 PM


Carla,

i hope that i am not being nosy, but there is something i have alway wondered about.

if a woman has an abortion and later has more children, does she share this with her other children? is it something that you tell them at a young age or when they are older?

just curious.

Posted by: becky at November 14, 2008 6:40 PM


I'm trying to ask this from a neutral, non-threatening position: What do you think of this conversion story?

Hey Michael.

Well, I guess I better read it.

:: read :: read :: read ::
.....


Of doctors like Nathanson and Adasevic who used to perform abortions and now believe it is such a barbaric, horrible practice? While I know you don't agree with them, would a testimony like this (someone who was intimately involved in the abortion industry) hold more sway with you than a pro-lifer like me who has never been in an abortion situation? I guess I'm wondering what reaction, if any, a pro-choicer has to this man.

Good questions, Michael.

It's not that I'm 180 degrees away from their position. Most surgical procedures have a "yuck" factor for me, and I'd rather see unwanted pregnancies prevented versus abortions taking place.

Taking the story at face value, which may be accepting some exaggerations (not sure, there), I think the subconscious is a mysterious place. The guy's dreams - I really don't know. That said, regardless of the extent to which it was his conscious mind or unconscious mind at work, I fully support his desire to stop doing abortions. I can understand him feeling as is described. If the state tried to mess with him as described, then I think that's way wrong.

It's too bad he got on the "Silent Scream" kick, since that undermines his credibility some, and I wonder if there is another side to the story and/or things not detailed, but still, his choice, all the way.

As to holding more sway or not, I don't give his opinion more weight than yours. The physical reality of the unborn isn't at issue, as far as I'm concerned, with the exception of just when the fetus becomes sentient, aware, is able to suffer, etc. I know the heart is present and beating early on, and that the limbs and digits, for example, appear by 8 or 10(?) weeks.

When I see a picture of a 20 week aborted fetus, I do think it's sad and "too bad," but there is also the question of the pregnant woman, and what she wants and what is best for her. I'm fine with restrictions after viability, and the tough part for me is the weeks right before viability, when the fetus is well-formed, usually, and "looks like a baby."

Posted by: Doug at November 14, 2008 6:59 PM


i lived in communist yugoslavia, serbia, most of my life and, guess what, i learned about thomas aquinas in regular secondary school on sociology classes, which were obligatory for all. not that i am symphathetic toward adašević, but this post is full of stupid things, pulp-explanations and distorted views.

Posted by: lorad at November 14, 2008 7:00 PM


lorad,
Would you care to explain?

Posted by: Janet at November 14, 2008 7:36 PM


Oh, Laura. I am so sorry. My heart goes out to you in your regret, which I share with you. Our babies are safe and wait for us. HUGS to you!!

Becky,
Not nosy at all!! :)
My children have known about their siblings(1 abortion, 2 miscarriages)for years. I hang little stockings up for Christmas. Aubrey, Jamie and Lee.
I have a stone in the backyard with their names on it. They know they have them waiting for them in heaven. I told my eldest children just last year about my abortion as I knew that I would be speaking out about my abortion experience and doing some traveling. My son was 10, my daughter was 8. More questions about it are sure to come but I am glad they know. It brought much healing to my heart as they know and love God. He forgives.

Posted by: Carla at November 14, 2008 9:03 PM


thank you so much Carla for sharing that with me! that is something that i have always wondered about. that is so great that you are so honest with your children.

my 6 year old asked me recently about abortion and my 4 year old yelled out that Obama wants to kill babies at Pizza Hut the other night. i think she had overheard my husband and i talking about the election.

i made sure that both my girls were aware of what was going on during my last pregnancy. i truly wanted them to know that there was a baby in there. i showed them pictures each month of what their sister looked like. i believe that the earlier we teach children to respect life, the better!

Posted by: becky at November 14, 2008 10:11 PM


But this is a pretty rare occurance, for every doctor that feels this way, there are 10,000 doctors who perform abortions with no regrets. That says something too.

Let's improve contraception, let's improve non surgerical abortion for the first trimester, and let's outlaw third trimester abortions. How's that?

Posted by: Hal at November 14, 2008 2:15 PM

1. I think there was "something" in this man's heart that was a sign of hope and St. Thomas was allowed to intercede on behalf of this man. Amazing.Absolutely amazing.

2. nope Hal. Won't work. Try rereading this Jill's post and have a change of heart or is your heart just too darn hardened and you are too proud to admit that what you did was wrong.

-------------------------------------------------

It's too bad he got on the "Silent Scream" kick, since that undermines his credibility some,

have you EVER seen an ultrasound Doug and if so were your children blobs or did they actually move around and respond to the ultrasound?
Statements like yours tell me you are intellectually dishonest.....really!

Posted by: Patricia at November 14, 2008 10:19 PM


NoName: awesome! What a blessing and proof that God really, deeply loves you AND your daughter!

Posted by: Patricia at November 14, 2008 10:22 PM


Off-topic, but Patricia...I have a question. I seem to recall that you are against using the pill to help with different female problems. Am I correct? If so, I would like to talk to you via email regarding a friend of mine to see if you know of information I can give her regarding ovarian cysts. My friend is in terrible pain and nothing's working.

If you don't mind, perhaps you could pass Carla or Bethany your email info so that I can discuss this with you via personal email?

Thanks so much! :)

Posted by: Kel at November 14, 2008 11:17 PM


As to holding more sway or not, I don't give his opinion more weight than yours

Posted by: Doug at November 14, 2008 6:59 PM

What emotions went through your brain while you read the words of the doctor?

Posted by: yllas at November 14, 2008 11:19 PM


Back on topic:

NoName and Carla, your posts brought tears to my eyes.

God bless both of you and your families.

Posted by: Kel at November 14, 2008 11:25 PM


Patricia--if you instead know of websites that you can list so that I can pass on the info, that would be appreciated as well! :)

Posted by: Kel at November 14, 2008 11:27 PM


Statements like yours tell me you are intellectually dishonest.....really!

Posted by: Patricia at November 14, 2008 10:19 PM


And remember, Doug is aware(knows) that you and everyone who is against abortion, doesn't have a good argument against abortion, You/They just think they do.

You lose any argument, in matters of abortion Patricia, from being a loser before you write a word.

That his belief and conclusion(you have no good argument)is held with confidence, but not substantiated by positive knowing or proof. Or Opinion.

Over and over it goes, your facts are opinion of reality, his facts are proof of reality.

Take his thinking on this story of a doctor that just told his history of abortion and his life.

He doubts, he wonders if this is the "whole story" and not something else is missing in his story.

Another words, he is a pessimist of reality , and a doubter of reality, when reality is written by a person, who wrote the reality of his life, and that doesn't agree with his OPINION on abortion.

Ah, agnostics, who have no agnosticism within themselves, which might be a contradiction of terms when the doubter/agnostic writes, "that no one has a good argument against abortion, they just think they do". No doubt in that statment, by a preaching agnostic for abortion.

Posted by: yllas at November 15, 2008 12:45 AM


Kel: I just saw this early this morning (Sat). I can't sleep for some reason (usually this happens when I am getting sick :-( , but we'll see!)

Anyway you may find this website interesting and of help to your friend:

http://www.popepaulvi.com/services.htm
There is a contact listed on this page. Although they are Catholic, they would be willing to help ANY woman experiencing problems. My understanding is that your friend may be able to get help finding a doctor in her state to assess her using this natural method.
They also have a National Women's Health Center which treats women from all over the US.

http://www.naprotechnology.com/ is a webpage from the above site.

Kel:I truly hope your friend is able to be helped. The main thing is to determine the cause and to find the cause the doctor needs to understand how your friend's body is working. I will pray for her. (Hope she "don't" mind!)

Posted by: Patricia at November 15, 2008 5:53 AM


becky,
Yeah, those little ears pick up all kinds of things don't they?? ha
When I have been pregnant out come all of the fetal development books I have. A Child is Born by Lennart Nilson is a personal favorite. My children know exactly what God was up to when He formed them in my womb!! Now they see a pregnant belly and say, "Oh, look at the baby!" :)

Love you, Kel!!!

Posted by: Carla at November 15, 2008 5:55 AM


Top of the morning to you Patricia!! :)

Posted by: Carla at November 15, 2008 5:56 AM


Another words, he is a pessimist of reality , and a doubter of reality, when reality is written by a person, who wrote the reality of his life, and that doesn't agree with his OPINION on abortion.

I rather think that people like Doug and Hal create their own reality so as to not face the consequences of their choices. You know the saying,"ignorance is bliss"....

Posted by: Patricia at November 15, 2008 5:57 AM


hey Carla! How are you?

Posted by: Patricia at November 15, 2008 6:18 AM


I found a particular part of this doctor's story most interesting as it pertains to our political climate today. When he tried to stop doing abortions,

"When Stojan informed the head of the hospital of his decision, there was a considerable stir. Never before in a Belgrade hospital had a gynecologist refused to perform abortions. Pressure was brought to bear on him. They cut his salary in half. His daughter was fired from her job. His son "failed" his university entrance examinations. He was attacked in the press and on television. The Socialist State -- they said -- had provided him with an education so that he could perform abortions, and now he was carrying out sabotage against the State. Two years of persecution brought him to the brink of nervous exhaustion."

Obama and his crew now want to give the federal government a stake in everything, from insurance, to banking to automobile production to energy. I heard on the radio yesterday someone say that "government exists only to guarantee our freedom and our responsibility. When they remove our responsibility (for our own education, food, clothing, shelter) they inherently must remove our freedom. Essentially, the government then owns us."

Obama now wants to make health care, college education and so many other things free or government supplemented. But at what price? If my sons want to become doctors, will they have to agree to perform abortions in exchange for their education?

Once you accept government support, you are essentially a child/slave.

Posted by: PJMama at November 15, 2008 7:09 AM


janet, thanks for asking. i will try to explain this, do forgive me on my bad english.

first of all, there`s something about factografy that makes me say the story is a fairytale: adašević did abortions for about 26 years. let`s say he had a mean for about 220 working days in a year and he did nothing except abortions -- no specialisations, no education, no medical analisys, not reading medical charts etc, that means he had 5,700 working days in his career, which means 45,600 working hours performing somwhere between 48000 to 62000 abortions, doing roughly between 1 and 1.4 dilatation and curettage abortions per hour through his career, not using coffee breaks, not eating, not consulting, not doing anything else from doctor`s professional curriculum in his 40 hours working week.

i checked a few things on adašević, he worked in "railways hospital" in belgrade, in a small state funded hospital established to take care of health of railways personnel exclusevly -- should i mention that this hospital isn`t a gynecology clinic? there is and, back in time, there was 4 big and equipped specialistic gynecologyst clinics in belgrade, formed to taking care on women`s health, where unwanted pregnacies could be terminated - they have and had much better doctors and equipment, even for terminations. so why would patients go in such numbers there, let alone the fact that 48-62000 abortion, held on railways personnel in 26 years is nothing less than absurd - there were never more than ten thousand woman employed in all of the yugoslav railways, let alone in serbian branch only, which was under care of belgrade`s railway hospital.

for me, the tomas aquinas story is very hard to belive in also, because anyone who went to the university (and adašević obviously did, he became a doctor), he had to finish secondary school first, where he had a chance to hear thoma`s name much more than once.

maybe some of people on this board will remember that yugoslavia was NOT the country from the soviet bloc, instead, yugoslavia, althoug had "socialist" in name, most of the time had much much better relations with usa and britain then with ussr and china (except in short period between 1945-1948).

i tried to drop a quick note on the catholicnewsagency.com about this facts, however, my post isn`t published there, so i am a bit angry because some anonymous doctor selling his, almost certainly fictional story on such hard subject, using church, and no one bothered to check the story which is heartbreaking, no doubt, however, all of the story is incredible.

Posted by: lorad at November 15, 2008 10:13 AM


lorad,
I'm busy right now, but will try to come back later to respond.

Posted by: Janet at November 15, 2008 3:17 PM


I am wonderful Patricia!! Thanks for asking!

Posted by: Carla at November 15, 2008 4:12 PM


Patricia, thanks SO much for the info. I will pass it on to her. And yes, please DO pray for her! I already told her that she had my prayers, and I know that more prayer is a good thing! ;)

Carla- *hugs*

Posted by: Kel at November 15, 2008 4:35 PM


"It's too bad he got on the "Silent Scream" kick, since that undermines his credibility some, and I wonder if there is another side to the story and/or things not detailed, but still, his choice, all the way."

Patricia: have you EVER seen an ultrasound Doug and if so were your children blobs or did they actually move around and respond to the ultrasound?

No kids of my own, Patricia, but agreed that babies move around prior to birth.
....


Statements like yours tell me you are intellectually dishonest.....really!

Nonsense. "Silent Scream" has been well debunked. Not to mention that the makers of it admitted that some things were faked or misstated.

Posted by: Doug at November 15, 2008 5:51 PM


"As to holding more sway or not, I don't give his opinion more weight than yours. The physical reality of the unborn isn't at issue, as far as I'm concerned, with the exception of just when the fetus becomes sentient, aware, is able to suffer, etc. I know the heart is present and beating early on, and that the limbs and digits, for example, appear by 8 or 10(?) weeks."

yllas: What emotions went through your brain while you read the words of the doctor?

Ha ha ha. Look at you, slinking around again, trying to bite people's ankles....

Posted by: Doug at November 15, 2008 5:53 PM


yllas: And remember, Doug is aware(knows) that you and everyone who is against abortion, doesn't have a good argument against abortion

:: yawn :: Yet another tired lie from you. You're projecting your own errors, and not quoting what I said in context.

Posted by: Doug at November 15, 2008 5:55 PM


Patricia: I rather think that people like Doug and Hal create their own reality so as to not face the consequences of their choices. You know the saying,"ignorance is bliss".

Actually, there is such a long history of Pro-Life sites and stories being exaggerated (to say the least) that some sceptism is certainly warranted.

I gave Michael an honest answer, and, even taking the story at face value (as I said) - I support the doctor's choice to stop doing abortions, as I told Michael.
.....


If you want to talk about "ignorance is bliss," there was a perfect example last month, with "Patricia Gould" posting.

At one point she said, Over 50% agree that abortion should only be allowed to protect a mother's life.

Now I know darn well that's not true, and I said, "Patricia, wrong again. You are either just making that up, or copying it off an untruthful website."
.......

Some more posts went by, and then she came out with, A new poll conducted by CBS News makes it clear that a majority of Americans are pro-life when it comes to the issue of abortion.

So, I googled what she posted, and Lo and Behold: LifeNews.com, word-for-word.

So, what your namesake was doing was blindly copying from a Pro-Life website, not realizing that it was intended for people too gullible to know better. You want to talk about "creating reality...." ; )

That, indeed is what LifeNews says, that "a majority of Americans are pro-life...."

Heh - what's not mentioned is that it was not a poll of "Americans" in general. It was only among white evangelicals in the first place.

Now, imagine that, a majority of white evangelicals are "pro-life...." Heh.

And imagine LifeNews pretending that it was everybody. Hilarious!


Posted by: Doug at November 15, 2008 6:43 PM


lorad at November 15, 2008 10:13 AM

Lorad, thank you for posting.

I was suspicious of the story - it just had that "sound" or "feel" to it.

I still think it raises a valid question about people's motivation and how it can change, though.

Posted by: Doug at November 15, 2008 6:45 PM


Actually, there is such a long history of Pro-Life sites and stories being exaggerated (to say the least) that some sceptism is certainly warranted.

really Doug, you NEVER fail to disappoint me. Always the same closed minded, libertine Doug. Since you've never had an ultrasound nor been present during one you have no idea what you are talking about.

@lorad
Well if I might be so impolite to ask - who the hell are you lorad that I should believe YOU?
And please cite some sources for YOUR claims.

Posted by: Patricia at November 15, 2008 7:27 PM


"Actually, there is such a long history of Pro-Life sites and stories being exaggerated (to say the least) that some sceptism is certainly warranted. "

really Doug, you NEVER fail to disappoint me.

Patricia, yeah, I actually speak to what was said.... You are apparently disappointed when somebody does that, since you so frequently choose not to.
.....


Always the same closed minded, libertine Doug. Since you've never had an ultrasound nor been present during one you have no idea what you are talking about.

Oh please. I replied to you, "agreed that babies move around prior to birth." I don't see that I've not agreed with anything about the physical reality of the unborn that you've brought up in this thread.
.....


You also said "create reality," and if we're talking about that, then some Pro-Life sites are rich sources, indeed.

And you also said, "ignorance is bliss," and that LifeNews falsely portrayed the poll, aiming it at people too gullible to know better, is a perfect example. There are many, many people like "Patricia Gould" that just eat that stuff up.

The original post follows:

Posted by: Doug at November 15, 2008 11:38 PM


Patricia Gould: A new poll conducted by CBS News makes it clear that a majority of Americans are pro-life when itcomes to the issue of abortion.

The October survey finds 54 percent of Americans take one of three pro-life positions opposing all or almost all abortions and another 16 percent want more restrictions on it.

The October 12-16 poll asked Americans to tell CBS News their “personal feelings” on abortion. The survey found that 16 percent of the public only favors allowing abortions “only to save woman’s life” and another 34 percent think abortions should only be allowed in the very rare cases of rape, incest or to save the mother’s life.

:: laughing ::

Oh Patricia....

Do you remember what I said about you "copying it off an untruthful website"?

I think you got that from LifeNews or some similar site, known to portray things falsely.

What you either are choosing to hide, or which you don't realize since the site is lying, is that the poll was not taken among "Americans" like that. It is not representative of Americans as a whole.

Do you know why?

It's because the poll was of "white evangelicals" in the first place.

I think you are taking what a certain website says, at face value, when it's patently false.

Anyway, if you want to see the real, whole poll, which is interesting on its own, here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/5wx6ek

Go down to where it says "Click here to view the complete poll results."

Posted by: Doug at October 25, 2008 3:55 PM

Posted by: Doug at November 15, 2008 11:40 PM


Hal and Doug,

Thanks for your thoughts. As you come here in part to try to understand some of the thinking of pro-lifers, I appreciate reading some of your thoughts and opinions, too.

Posted by: Michael at November 16, 2008 12:08 AM


Lorad: "first of all, there`s something about factografy that makes me say the story is a fairytale: ....not doing anything else from doctor`s professional curriculum in his 40 hours working week."

You are assuming a number of things here to discredit the story. You are first of all assuming that the doctor worked 40 hours a week. It would take a minor modification to 60 hours a week to alter the division of time by the number of abortions dramatically. Here is an easy math example....

2400/40 = 60
2400/60 = 40

Notice that the second number is 33% less than the first. That one assumption opens up a lot of time for the doctor to do his paperwork alone.

However, the big assumption is that the doctor has done his math correctly. In the article itself he openly admits to "estimating" and that he "has difficulty reckoning up the abortions he performed in his twenty-six years of practice."

So lets do the hard math and watch how some awful estimation would affect the scenario given a 60 hour work week.

(Ill use your numbers for the working days, which again is an assumption, but I would think maybe a more reasonable one.)

220 days at 26 years at 12 hours a day = 68,400 hours.

Now all it would take is for him to say "I did roughly an abortion every 45 minutes to an hour" to come up with his numbers. What if the truth was closer to an abortion every 2 hours? It would certainly deflate the numbers a bit. The margin of error when estimating such a thing, especially off the cuff to a reporter, is I imagine quite high.

The next assumption you made is that abortions cannot even been done in under an hour in any circumstance. What if the doctor used a particular technique, possibly even illegal, to perform abortions in 15 minutes or less?

You then assume that if he did an abortion at all hours of his day that he would not have time for office work, which you use as a basis for your conclusion that his is "likely" a fairy tale. Could it be reasonable that the man had so much demand that he had to hire out his office work or, I dunno, take it home with him?

The the final assumption in this portion of your argument about the numbers is that you fail to consider the possibility that the article artificially inflated the numbers. It is possible that they did so by mistake, or on purpose to heighten the sensationalism of the story. In either case, however, it does not necessarily, or even reasonably, lead to the idea that the entire article is inaccurate.

Lorad: "for me, the tomas aquinas story is very hard to belive in also, because anyone who went to the university (and adašević obviously did, he became a doctor), he had to finish secondary school first, where he had a chance to hear thoma`s name much more than once."

I had never heard of Thomas Aquinas until I watched a movie about his life on the movie channel. I never learned about him in secondary school or in college. Does this mean that his school did not teach the subject? Of course not. My point is that you cannot claim that he must have heard about Thomas Aquinas because it was taught in your school or even if it was commonly taught in schools in the area. His school may not teach the subject in lieu of something more substantial. His teacher may have bucked the curriculum or run out of time that year and decided to cut it. He may have been sick that day for all you know.

Or maybe he forgot about him? Maybe the image of the man appeared in his dreams from a subconscious memory. However, it could still be miraculous or at the very least poignant how the memory played out in his conversion story.


I will be honest, I am not too entirely convinced by the story myself. However, I am not about to stand up and use incredibly flawed and insufficient logic to discredit the story either. At the very least you should admit that your reasonings really hold no merit and are just base speculations or conjectures.

Posted by: Oliver at November 16, 2008 12:56 AM


yawn :: Yet another tired lie from you. You're projecting your own errors, and not quoting what I said in context.

Posted by: Doug at November 15, 2008 5:55 PM

It is your words, word for word. Not a word is in dispute. You have admitted those are your words.

There is nothing out of context, dude.

You have written only one false truth to this board amongst the thousands of post you have written.

Your batting %99.9 in the truth of Doug, for the killing of innocent human beings.

Your batting %100 in arguing to a waitress your "just another drink" logic process, being dishonest to that waitress in your argument for just another drink, by arguing a external fact of time was the basis of another of your false truth argument. Such a typical dishonest liar unto himself first, and to others so naturally later.

Your basically a intrinsic intellectually dishonest sophist, who convinces himself of a truthful false reality, that even a waitress has no good argument against your intrinsically dishonest lying logic of a external fact argument. While, all the time, your knowing she has no good argument against your lying argument to her, she just think she does.

And there is not one false word in that statment above.

You just think there is, but we all know, that Doug knows no one has a good argument against him, they just think they do.

Remember Doug, it all began when you worshipped the all knowing murderering God of your parents as a young narcissist, and came to the right conclusion to abandon such trapped closed minded thinking of being aware of awareness before awareness is aware.

You know, the definition of know is awareness. I must remind you of defintions often,, so your able to know, not to reconstruct only the parts of my post, which then makes you into that invincible, false truth reality kinda guy, that you are dude.



Posted by: yllas at November 16, 2008 6:58 AM


Doug: I have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.
Is Patricia Gould suppose to be me or a reporter or WHAT?
And I don't go to LifeNews for my info. LMAO!
Oh, you mean I should to to NBC or the New York Times who have been PROVEN to have produced fraudulent work?
You are quite the slice of idiocy Doug! My congrats to you.
And yes, since you've NEVER seen a live ultrasound, nor actually been present when one is done, you would have NO idea whether the Nathanson ultrasound was faked.
Believe me, it was not. Having met Mr. Nathanson, shortly after his conversion and his filming of the Silent Scream I can assure you he is quite legit.

Believe what you want Doug, if it truly makes you feel better andhelps you to cope with whatever your strange reality is!

Posted by: Patricia at November 16, 2008 7:48 AM


yllas: What emotions went through your brain while you read the words of the doctor?

Ha ha ha. Look at you, slinking around again, trying to bite people's ankles....

Posted by: Doug at November 15, 2008 5:53 PM

One must notice the fact you didn't answer the question since your argument for abortion is also based on emotion too. A Want.

You don't have to raise your body of the ground and bite my ankle in not to answering a simple question to you, Dogma Dude.

Just spew out a answer to a simple question asked of you,dude.

A simple list for your awarness of emotion.

Sad
Happy
Angry
Shame
Sorrow

Come on dude, you can do it.


We know you already have the emotion of doubt. Any other emotionally based feelings for continuing back to that hole from which you crawled out of, and bite life in the ankles, before it breathes a breath?

Remember Dogma Doug, when your were a little viper worshipping the all Knowing Murderering God of your parents, and they spewed that old time Murder God religion to ya dude, you are carrying the cross upon your back still.


Lay that cross of murder down, take that burden off your back, and progress beyond your parent's murdering God that made you a agnostic adult ankle biting viper of today.


Come, pray with me Dogma Doug.

Our Murder in Heaven
Hallow be thy name
They murderdom come
Thy Will for Murder be done
On Earth, as murder is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily murder by abortion;
And forgive our daily murder by abortions
As we have forgiven our abortionist
And lead us not into doing murder by a promise of the reward of want
But deliever us from breathing before we breathe

For thine is the murderdom
And the Power
And the glory of abortion
Forever.

Feel happy now Doug?

That's what you were taught as a little viper and continue to preach for today. Thank Murder, you have become a not knower, or knower of that All Knowing Murder God of your childhood.



Posted by: yllas at November 16, 2008 8:13 AM


Believe what you want Doug, if it truly makes you feel better andhelps you to cope with whatever your strange reality is!

Posted by: Patricia at November 16, 2008 7:48 AM

Patricia, his reality is well known.

You have no argument against abortion, you just think you do.

The dude has a record of being a person that has written only one false statment in matters of abortion since he began his preaching for abortion at this site. The "truth bat" for abortion, that Doug swings in matters of abortion, is for all mathmatical reasons %100.

Your arguing with a God named Doug.


The dude has abandoned women when they need close human relations in matters of abortion by adoption. The dude bullies waitresses by reason of being intrinsically dishonest in arguments.
The dudeGod admits to wanting to personally kill a human being if given a chance by being a abortion doktor. He thinks he is not a propagandist killing professional, posting his %100 truth, for killing by professionals.
He never has read one book from page one, to the last page that is written by a pro lifer philosopher,writer, theologian,etc.


And why should he, afterall. being principled first , that no one has a good argument against abortion, they just think they do. Which leads to a failure to understand terms,words, sentences, used by pro lifers in their arguments for life.

Another words, the dude is a walking talking preacher of a solid reality for abortion, as solid as a communist in Serbia was, in matters of communism.


Posted by: yllas at November 16, 2008 8:52 AM


Posted by: Doug at November 15, 2008 5:53 PM

"As to holding more sway or not, I don't give his opinion more weight than yours. The physical reality of the unborn isn't at issue, as far as I'm concerned, with the exception of just when the fetus becomes sentient, aware, is able to suffer, etc. I know the heart is present and beating early on, and that the limbs and digits, for example, appear by 8 or 10(?) weeks."

yllas: "What emotions went through your brain while you read the words of the doctor?"

Doug: "Ha ha ha. Look at you, slinking around again, trying to bite people's ankles...."
____

You know what they say about feeding trolls, Doug.

Posted by: Therence at November 16, 2008 9:48 AM


" :: yawn :: Yet another tired lie from you. You're projecting your own errors, and not quoting what I said in context."

yllas: It is your words, word for word. Not a word is in dispute. You have admitted those are your words.

There is nothing out of context

Wrong again, and we've been through it many times.

.....

"Ha ha ha. Look at you, slinking around again, trying to bite people's ankles...."

when your were a little viper worshipping the all Knowing Murderering God of your parents, and they spewed that old time Murder God religion to ya dude, you are carrying the cross upon your back still.

:: laughing ::

Like I was saying, above....

Posted by: Doug at November 16, 2008 11:45 AM


Doug, I have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.

Patricia, you mentioned "ignorance is bliss" and "creating reality" without anything to support it. I just gave some examples which happened to be among Pro-Lifers and at a Pro-Life website.
.....


Is Patricia Gould suppose to be me or a reporter or WHAT?

No, just another posted on this board.
....


And I don't go to LifeNews for my info. LMAO! Oh, you mean I should to to NBC or the New York Times who have been PROVEN to have produced fraudulent work?

You're doing well to avoid Lifenews. My point is that rather than just talk about "creating reality," you might try showing some actual examples.
.....


And yes, since you've NEVER seen a live ultrasound, nor actually been present when one is done, you would have NO idea whether the Nathanson ultrasound was faked.

It's not me that determines it, Patricia. The makers of the film have admitted some things weren't true, and there are some pretty easily-spotted falsehoods and inconsistencies too. Some Pro-Life groups even advise their members not to use the movie in their activities since it casts a bad light on them.

Posted by: Doug at November 16, 2008 11:51 AM


Therence: You know what they say about feeding trolls, Doug.

I know, Therence, but sometimes one's ankles get itchy....

yllas and I are buddies, actually - we're going to a craft fair later today.

Posted by: Doug at November 16, 2008 11:52 AM


Michael: Thanks for your thoughts. As you come here in part to try to understand some of the thinking of pro-lifers, I appreciate reading some of your thoughts and opinions, too.

You're welcome, Michael.

Posted by: Doug at November 16, 2008 11:54 AM


Doug @ 11:52,

"yllas and I are buddies, actually - we're going to a craft fair later today."

Good one Doug! (Does yllas know ?) :)

Posted by: Janet at November 16, 2008 1:28 PM


Patricia, you mentioned "ignorance is bliss" and "creating reality" without anything to support it.

your posts are evidence enough! *as if you didn't know* rotfl hehe....

Posted by: Patricia at November 16, 2008 2:05 PM


"Patricia, you mentioned "ignorance is bliss" and "creating reality" without anything to support it."

your posts are evidence enough! *as if you didn't know* rotfl hehe....

Heh - I give examples, you just pretend.

Posted by: Doug at November 16, 2008 2:25 PM


your examples ARE pretend Doug - they are not real authoritative examples, just rife with ideology and bias
I wonder Doug, how many aborted children YOU have in YOUR past? I really do wonder....

Posted by: Patricia at November 16, 2008 2:29 PM


@Patricia: What business is it to you?

Posted by: Rae at November 16, 2008 2:48 PM


well Rae, often those who strenuously defend the right to abortion are the ones who have partaken of the liberal "sacrament"
They vehemently reject ANY argument against abortion, often never giving any thought to other possibilities.
Kate Michelson is one such example.
They see it as an affirmation/justification of their "choice" when in fact it would of greater benefit if they faced the fact that what they did was morally wrong and that they could have chosen another path.
Ms Michelson is certainly someone who has spent her entire life attempting to make herself feel validated for her choice to abort. And it's quite sad, because it's so obvious in her case.
Instead of seeking forgivenss and healing they seek to bring as many people along with them as possible.
In theological terms this is often referred to as the "economy of damnation".
Doug impresses me as one such person. Therefore, my question was rhetorical and not necessarily meant to be answered. Besides, I doubt I would believe any answer Doug provided anyway.

Posted by: Patricia at November 16, 2008 3:53 PM


@Patricia: I have no idea who Kate Michelson is.

Posted by: Rae at November 16, 2008 5:09 PM


Former NARAL President, Rae.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 16, 2008 5:27 PM


@Bobby: Thank you, my good man.

Posted by: Rae at November 16, 2008 6:46 PM


Posted be Doug: "yllas and I are buddies, actually - we're going to a craft fair later today."

LOLOL "craft fair."

Posted by: Therence at November 16, 2008 10:19 PM


your examples ARE pretend Doug - they are not real authoritative examples, just rife with ideology and bias.

Posted by: Patricia at November 16, 2008 2:29 PM


He explained it pretty well, Patricia. He said, "Patricia, you mentioned "ignorance is bliss" and "creating reality" without anything to support it. I just gave some examples which happened to be among Pro-Lifers and at a Pro-Life website."

Nobody can seriously argue with those examples he gave. So what have you got? I don't see that you've anything.

Posted by: Therence at November 16, 2008 10:24 PM


"The dudeGod admits to wanting to personally kill a human being if givena chance by being a abortion doktor. He thinks he is not a propagandistkilling professional, posting his %100 truth, for killing byprofessionals."

Yllas, it's always this bizarre cuckoo stuff from you. You have no shame.

Why don't you deal with something truthful?

When you got out of control with Hal, you started talking about adults having sex with kids.

When you totally lost it with Jess, you went on and on about parents having sex with kids.

What's up with that?

Posted by: Heather at November 16, 2008 11:36 PM


yllas: "What emotions went through your brain while you read the words of the doctor?"

Doug: "Ha ha ha. Look at you, slinking around again, trying to bite people's ankles...."

Still no answer to what emotion went through through your amygdala dude.

There is nothing out of context

Wrong again, and we've been through it many times

And you prove it to yourself with every post(except one post to Bethany), that no one has a good argument against abortion, they just think they do. Over, and over, and over, until your just a abortion troll, preaching for the murder of human beings by chanting encantation's of death is life, to heal is to kill a human being.

Burning a human being by salt, or sucking the brains out of innocent human beings, while chanting that troll thought, that no one has a good argument against life, they just think they do. And answering that dogmatic logic with words which explain nothing but a reason that enforces your dogmatic reality over and over again ,dude.

We get it dude.

Your for murdering human beings by any and all means available from time immemorial. That your life is soo devoted to reading, thinking, living a troll life based on a culture of death.

For every fact presented by pro lifers, you make it a opinion,a lie, deceptions, misrepresentations, until your convinced of that dogmatic reality you have constructed out of knowing no one has a good argument against your closed minded reality. A reality that is self assured of batting only a few words of false truth, that leave you batting %100 truth in matters of abortion, for all practical purposes.


Really dude, your such a troll, that you even have to post at this site while your in another nation on vacation. Not giving your feverish brain a break from spewing your venomous culture of death of human beings by a emotion of, Want.

That your needed here by the moderators and Jill is proven over and over again by your thousands of post that return to nothingmore then reasons to murder innocent human life in the womb.

Hey, we get it troll.

That Stanek is going to pay a heavy price for preferring such trolls as you Doug. Giving a free forum to trolls such as you dude, and losing more then she gains daily at this site.

That most posters for life at this site are a pin cushion for propagandist trolls for a culture of death.

He we get it dude, your for death.

That no reason overcomes a death troll that is secure in knowing that no one has a good argument against that death troll.

That's a fact dude, which you deny, and will deny that fact, from being a intrinsic, factually dishonest intellect, overcome with the vapors of just wanting to kill human beings before they breathe a breath.

We get it dude.

Posted by: yllas at November 17, 2008 4:56 AM


Actually, there is such a long history of Pro-Life sites and stories being exaggerated (to say the least) that some sceptism is certainly warranted.

Posted by the %100 percent truth dude, Doug.

But, not a sceptic thought about your sources for death by abortion,huh dude?

Give us a few of those pro choice sites, that warrant "some sceptism" by you, All Truth dude.


Posted by: yllas at November 17, 2008 5:07 AM


Nobody can seriously argue with those examples he gave. So what have you got? I don't see that you've anything.

Posted by: Therence at November 16, 2008 10:24 PM

While I don't follow every story posted by every prolife site Therence, I can assure you that I do rely on the MSM to provide me with all of my information. It is quite obvious that the MSM functions totally on ideology and is almost NEVER interested in providing facts. Every piece is an editorial.
Since I am an information specialist, authoritative sources are my specialty. It has been my experience on this blog that virtually EVERY single proabort commenting here, will not accept ANY source that supports in any way, a prolife position. In fact, I have yet to see a proabort who accept even stats from PP or the Guttmacher Institute which might lend support to prolife arguments.
What does this make one conclude? The proaborts believe that they have right to do whatever the hell they want. It is the argument of bodily autonomy and the improper notion of the "right" to privacy which is sacrosanct for them.
In this manner, proaborts generally succeed in shutting down the debate on abortion. I am willing to bet that even should someone like Hal, who aborted two of his four children, be present in a clinic to view an abortion and hold with his own hands the broken body of an unborn baby, he still would believe that abortion is quite fine, thank-you.
It is an unabashed hard-heartedness that is unparalleled in history and for which our generation will be forever known.

Posted by: Patricia at November 17, 2008 9:41 AM


Yllas, you've got a lot of nerve going on about other people. Anybody can make up anything, and the garbage you post really just makes a joke of you.

Let's look at something truthful.

"But, anyway, let's review the age of that boy you were trapped with on that island, and now admit, you would sod----- to prove your not a homophobe.

Please check one;

12 years
13 years
14 years
15 years
16 years"

Posted by: Heather at November 17, 2008 3:37 PM


Dear Heather.

Your a tool.

A sock puppet of Doug.

And a trained mind of Doug.

Hal was asked some questions concerning his homophobic reactions in denying sex with a young male on a island.

Hal preferred his hand to a person willing to have relations with him.

Hal then changed his pov and wrote he would love a same sex person.

Hal also stated that pre teens should be allowed to engage in sexual acts. Hence, a person who allows child molestation by pre teens is for molestation of pre teens.

I suspect you enjoy(ed) pre teen sex also Heather, since one normally finds their morality on sexual age appropriateness, by using their own age when they experienced volitional sexual acts.

Anything less is denying your own acts as hypocritical.

Which leads to a age question to Hal.

Same question can be asked of you, Heather.

10
11
12
13
14years old.

Garbage is being a puppet of a education system that ends with all minds, defending all the subjects, that were subjects of education.

You fit the above Heather.


Posted by: yllas at November 17, 2008 8:03 PM


Very funny, Yllas. You're so worried about pestering Doug that you can't control yourself, and your personal ugliness comes out, which dwarfs anything else here.

Posted by: Chris at November 18, 2008 5:46 AM


I have a feeling that Yllas grew up wetting the bed, starting fires, and torturing small animals.

Posted by: Ecclesiastes 4:3 at November 18, 2008 8:43 AM


"Hal was asked some questions concerning his homophobic reactions in denying sex with a young male on a island."

More of your clowning-around, Yllas, that's all.

You're always making up stupid stuff about people. Leah, Erin, Midnite, PIP, Doug, Hal, Bobby, Phylosopher, etc., etc.

Posted by: Heather at November 18, 2008 9:08 AM


Wise comments to Yllas:

"Yllas -

honest question...

when you post all of this garbage, do you think you're being deep and profound?

I'm not trying to be mean, but if you haven't noticed, even people who probably agree with your basic points don't respond or discuss your posts, and many pro lifers as well as pro choicers completely ignore your posts because they're ususually just rambling, insult riddled tangents. No one thinks you're clever except you. It might benefit you to cool down the alliterations, stupid nicknames, and rhetoric, as well as your lovely habit of making assumptions and putting words in people's mouths.

I've found the people who post here, even if I vehemently disagree with them, have at least a little something to say thats worth thinking about. You are the only exception. Again, I'm not trying to be mean...unless you enjoy not being taken seriously...in that case, by all means..."

Posted by: Heather at November 18, 2008 9:12 AM


Therence: Nobody can seriously argue with those examples he gave. So what have you got? I don't see that you've anything.

Patricia: While I don't follow every story posted by every prolife site Therence, I can assure you that I do rely on the MSM to provide me with all of my information. It is quite obvious that the MSM functions totally on ideology and is almost NEVER interested in providing facts. Every piece is an editorial.
Since I am an information specialist, authoritative sources are my specialty.

Holy Cow, Patricia. I agree with you that the MSM isn't always going to be right, and I agree with you on just about all the aspects of the unborn, as far as physical reality.

I was referring to where you said, I rather think that people like Doug and Hal create their own reality

I meant that rather than you just saying that, how about some actual examples?
....


You also wrote,You know the saying,"ignorance is bliss"....

I gave the examples of LifeNews' falsehoods to show an actual example of "reality creation," and that if there is "ignorant bliss," it's on the part of people too gullible to know any better, and those are the targets of stuff like that.

Posted by: Doug at November 18, 2008 10:05 AM


Heather: Yllas, it's always this bizarre cuckoo stuff from you. You have no shame.

Why don't you deal with something truthful?

Exactly. It's been obvious all along that yllas's agenda is really only expressing her hatred, self-hatred at the core.

Posted by: Doug at November 18, 2008 10:08 AM


Oliver and Lauren totally saw through Yllas's garbage on a later thread.

If there was serious moderation here, Yllas would be permanently banned.

Posted by: Chris at November 18, 2008 9:15 PM