Planned Parenthood deathscort softened by child's death

tuesday morning 2.jpgPro-life stalwart and friend Leslie, who blogs at The Passionate Pro-Lifer and comments here as well, lost one of her precious twin granddaughters, Tuesday, on January 30, to cancer.

So Leslie had been missing from the sidewalk counseling scene at the Rocky Mountain Planned Parenthood mega-abortion mill while in mourning, until this past Saturday when she ventured back. She described the following incident on her blog:

I'm not certain how long Ron has been an "escort" for evil, Planned Parenthood in Denver. But, I can say this, he has gone out of his way to be unkind to those who try to rescue those being unjustly led to the slaughter.

Today, on my first venture to CO's slaughterhouse for some time, I was astonished to be approached by a Planned Parenthood death-scort....

Ron came across the street to speak to me today. As he approached, I recall wondering if he was coming to chastise me for some crazy regulation I was violating, or if he would yell at me for - what ever?

ron pringle 2.jpg

Nevertheless, Ron spoke to me in a completely different manner than ever before.

Ron Pringle spoke into my heart today, in a way that completely baffled my mind. He told me that he had heard about my twin grand daughter, Tuesday's passing.

He told me today that he was a twin. He admitted that he was a grandfather.

Ron Pringle told me that he was sorry that my grand baby had died.

I couldn't quite believe he was telling me these words.

In my choked up voice, I thanked him. But, I softly spoke these words.

"You've got to get out of this business."

He leaned into me and said "What?"

"You have to get out of this business, Ron."

He nodded his head, yes.

I can't quite believe that he meant what he acknowledged.

Yet, I pray that the prayers of my friends and myself will bear fruit.

Many people don't realize pro-life sidewalk counselors attempt to minister not only to mothers and families entering abortion mills but also to mill workers and abortionists. Many have abandoned that evil world with the help and support of sidewalk counselors.

I pray Ron is the next to leave. And I thank my special friend Leslie for standing in the gap despite her overwhelming pain.

[Photos of Tuesday and Ron courtesy of The Passionate Pro-Lifer]


Comments:

We should pray for Ron. I'm sure he thinks what he's doing is a "good" thing. The grace of God may yet be working. God is very patient.

Posted by: angel at March 26, 2009 4:15 PM


Leslie,
I'm so sorry for your loss. Your conversation with Ron makes me cry with joy. I will pray for you both. God bless you.

Posted by: Janet at March 26, 2009 4:17 PM


Now I am in tears. I will pray for Ron specifically for awhile, esp the Divine Mercy Chaplet.

My condolences to Leslie's family. My prayer for them is Numbers 6:24-26.

Posted by: WI Catholic at March 26, 2009 4:18 PM


Very moving story! Bless you, Leslie for all you efforts & may God comfort you as you continue to grieve the loss of precious Tuesday!

Posted by: Dani at March 26, 2009 4:24 PM


Oh my goodness, what a story.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at March 26, 2009 4:24 PM


Pray for Ron and he will leave the abortion deathscort business.

God Bless Leslie and her family in this tough time.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at March 26, 2009 4:30 PM


It's all too easy for us to forget that the people involved in this awful killing ARE PEOPLE. People with their own hurts, fears, scars. People who have bought into a terrible lie, people we might have been but for grace.

Posted by: Naomi at March 26, 2009 4:34 PM


yes, both sides are guilty of thinking of the other as mere caricatures of what we imagine a pro lifer or pro choicer to be. I learn that my views were a bit off, and am here to offer myself as an example of a real person who supports abortion rights.

Posted by: Hal at March 26, 2009 4:44 PM


Hal,
Of course you are a real person. We just won't be happy until you demonstrate your conversion like Ron. Maybe you two could have a chat.

Posted by: Janet at March 26, 2009 4:50 PM


You know what really makes me sad?

HisMan believes that God SPECIFICLY DETERMINED that Leslie's granddaughter would get cancer and die for it at the specific time she did.

How evil is that belief? Not that God would bring about something horrible for someone to experience, but the belief that ALL evil and suffering that we experience in the world is due to God's specificly willing each event.

THANK GOD LESLIE HANKS HAS A GREAT PASTOR IN BOB ENYART WHO KNOWS WHAT GOD IS REALLY LIKE!

God generally does not bring about tragedies and if He does so He announces it first before doing so in order to give the people a chance to repent and spare them.

18:7-10 "The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy [it,] 8 "if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will REPENT of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 "And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it,] 10 "if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will REPENT concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Jeremiah 26:12-19 Then Jeremiah spoke to all the princes and all the people, saying: "The LORD sent me to prophesy against this house and against this city with all the words that you have heard. 13 "Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; then the LORD will REPENT concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you. 14 "As for me, here I am, in your hand; do with me as seems good and proper to you. 15 "But know for certain that if you put me to death, you will surely bring innocent blood on yourselves, on this city, and on its inhabitants; for truly the LORD has sent me to you to speak all these words in your hearing." 16 So the princes and all the people said to the priests and the prophets, "This man does not deserve to die. For he has spoken to us in the name of the LORD our God." 17 Then certain of the elders of the land rose up and spoke to all the assembly of the people, saying: 18 "Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spoke to all the people of Judah, saying, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts: "Zion shall be plowed [like] a field, Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins, And the mountain of the temple Like the bare hills of the forest." ' 19 "Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the LORD and seek the LORD's favor? And the Lord REPENTED concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them. But we are doing great evil against ourselves."

Luke 13:1-5 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all [other] Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 "I TELL YOU, NO; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 "Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all [other] men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 "I TELL YOU, NO; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

Posted by: Bad_Pro-Life_Theology/Philosophy_can_no_longer_be_tolerated at March 26, 2009 4:56 PM


Most of the pro aborts know. Don't get weary in well doing because there will be a tipping point.

Posted by: xppc at March 26, 2009 4:59 PM


Bad... where precisely do you get that idea about Hisman? The fact is that God knew that Leslie's granddaughter would die and was there with that family providing solace and comfort during a time of great grief. He was also there to welcome that precious little one into the gates of Heaven.

Allowing isn't the same as causing... and there may be some reason that we as mere mortals do not understand that the best place for that particular child is in Heaven with the Lord. As a pediatric RN, it is not uncommon for patients I love dearly to pass from this life into Heaven's embrace... do I always understand? Of course not. Do I trust that His time and His reasons are for the best for all involved? Yes, I do.

Posted by: Elisabeth at March 26, 2009 5:08 PM


"The fact is that God knew that Leslie's granddaughter would die and was there with that family providing solace and comfort during a time of great grief."

Actually, Elisabeth, students of Enyart I believe tend to be open theists, which I don't think is a debate we really want to get into on here. Then again, maybe we do, who knows? God love you.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at March 26, 2009 5:13 PM


We just won't be happy until you demonstrate your conversion like Ron. Maybe you two could have a chat.
Posted by: Janet at March 26, 2009 4:50 PM

Janet, I don't read that story as one of conversion. There are many reasons to "get out of the business." Sounds like he is tired of butting heads with the protesters, I don't see that he's turned pro-life. (maybe he did, but the article doesn't say that)

Posted by: Hal at March 26, 2009 5:53 PM


I love & admire Leslie. Her holiness & tenacity for the truth as it is in Jesus is an inspiration. I have no doubt that all the clinic workers & deathscorts have a grudging respect for Leslie & the other warriors who are faithful & intentional in reaching out to rescue the perishing there at Rocky Mt PP.

Posted by: Patte at March 26, 2009 5:57 PM


I am so sorry, Leslie. My prayers are with you and your family.

I am also praying for Ron. Oh, and Danielle!! And all of those that work in the abortion business.

Posted by: Carla at March 26, 2009 6:22 PM


Hi Hal,
Ron's heart was softened. That is the start. Your heart has softened too. I have witnessed it myself.
:) Don't worry. I won't tell a soul.

Posted by: Carla at March 26, 2009 6:50 PM


Well, that's true Carla. From getting to know people like you, (and others). It's harder to rail against the flaws of our friends. And by "flaws" I simply mean areas where we don't see eye to eye yet.

Posted by: Hal at March 26, 2009 6:54 PM


We are all flawed. Ain't it grand??

Posted by: Carla at March 26, 2009 7:19 PM


I am so sorry, Leslie. My prayers are with you and your family.

I am also praying for Ron. Oh, and Danielle!! And all of those that work in the abortion business.
Posted by: Carla at March 26, 2009 6:22 PM
********************************************

Carla, you said it well. I will add my agreement to your entire statement.

Posted by: Kel at March 26, 2009 7:49 PM


"HisMan believes that God SPECIFICLY DETERMINED that Leslie's granddaughter would get cancer and die for it at the specific time she did.

Posted by: Bad_Pro-Life_Theology/Philosophy_can_no_longer_be_tolerated at March 26, 2009 4:56 PM"

Bad, and you are very, very bad and a bold faced LIAR!

I never said anything like this. I never even commented on this post. Nor have I ever insinuated that God punished innocent children.

Are you pro-abortion or not?

You better apologize very quickly and take back your misquote.

Posted by: HisMan at March 26, 2009 8:53 PM


Okay, now I have to go google the term "open theist". Thanks Bobby... I needed something to do other than study!!! LOL

Posted by: Elisabeth at March 26, 2009 9:00 PM


Found it... I've heard that before. Doesn't work any better now than the last time I heard it.

Thanks Bobby! (Now off to study for my CPN)

Posted by: Elisabeth at March 26, 2009 9:11 PM


The Lord is good.

Posted by: SUZANNE at March 26, 2009 9:19 PM


The Lord IS good!!!

Posted by: Heather at March 26, 2009 9:55 PM


Bad: Please pull up this specific quote that YOU said I made, time and date please:
"HisMan believes that God SPECIFICLY DETERMINED that Leslie's granddaughter would get cancer and die for it at the specific time she did."

Prove that you're NOT a liar, I demand it NOW! You can't because you are a liar.

And any one with any sense could see from my comments that I wrestle with this issue and I am grieved that this happened. It is YOU who are evil to try to twist my words when I put so much effort and thought in trying to explain the truth. Here's a few of my quotes you so conveniently failed to list:

"I don't think God actively punishes people like that. I think He lovingly warns people and then allows bad things to happen to us in discipline and only for our ultimate good. But He never gives us more than we can handle. I don't see how punishing a woman with breast cancer for having an abortion makes any sense. This is not the God I know."

"I especially grieve for the innocent 7 children who died."

"First, none of can know exactly why something happens like this. We can only ponder and think and pray about it and ask God to reveal what He is trying to show us."

"God is a God of love and mercy and grace however, he is not mocked and He is sovereign. This why we believers are continually warning and pleading with people to change their ways and views about abortion."

"While my heart breaks for Mr. Feldkamp and I cannot imagine the pain he feels right now, I hope he realizes in his great pain that he has actually been given an opportunity to turn this imto a monumental testimony for God. The apostle Paul murdered Christians and became, through surrender to Christ, one of the greatest men who ever lived."

"Discipline and puishment are very, very different. Discipline is done out of love and for the good of another. Punishment is done for vengeance and in retaliation for a wrong suffered."

"I know that the words punishment and discpline ar used interchagably in the Bible, however, we must always look at the subject in context."

"If you really, really cared about this family, your own family or any one else, you wouldn't curse and blaspheme God and oppose everything He represents. You wouldn't be pro-abortion, you wouldn't be pro-death."

So keep trying to destroy me or intimidate me with your lies...just keep trying.

Posted by: HisMan at March 26, 2009 10:13 PM


Moderators:

Bad is a slanderer and I suggest you remind him/her of the rules.

I don't wnat this freak to cause me to litigate his BS but I will if I have to if he slanders me again and lies about something I said.

Posted by: HisMan at March 26, 2009 10:16 PM


Hello His Man.

Posted by: Heather at March 26, 2009 10:17 PM


Hello Heather, how are you and what's been going on in your life?

Posted by: HisMan at March 26, 2009 10:40 PM


His Man, I posted above. I have been trying to contact your site. I shall attempt again tomorrow:}

Posted by: Heather at March 26, 2009 10:53 PM


I am also praying for Ron. Oh, and Danielle!! And all of those that work in the abortion business.
Posted by: Carla at March 26, 2009 6:22 PM

-I know you mean well by that comment, Carla. I'll accept it for its intent, and leave it at that.

Posted by: Danielle at March 26, 2009 11:46 PM


Well Danielle,
What else can ya do when someone says they are praying for you? :)

Posted by: Carla at March 27, 2009 12:35 AM


Hi Carla!
The kids are sleeping, why aren't you? :)

Posted by: Janet at March 27, 2009 12:38 AM


Can't sleep......must clean up threads. :)
What are you doing up??

Posted by: Carla at March 27, 2009 12:43 AM


Heather,
I was just thinking about you the other day and wondered how you were!! I read some exciting things about being a sidewalk counselor, going to church?
WOW!! I am so happy for you!

Posted by: Carla at March 27, 2009 12:53 AM


Carla,

I'm doing laundry, but I must go to bed.... I've been staying up too late and my body clock is all messed up! Crazy!

Looks like we may have a bit of snow by Sunday. I hope you guys don't get hit with a storm like Denver today. Our daffodils are getting close to blooming, maybe another week. Yeah!

I tried to post on your blog today "Water Color Memories" but it didn't take, I must have done something wrong. How do you think up such creative titles?
That would be a good title for a book. Think of all the metaphors for life...
OK, It's really time for bed! Bye!
God bless!
:)

Posted by: Janet at March 27, 2009 1:05 AM


It snowed a bit today......sigh.

Please try to post again. I would love to see you in my blog neighborhood. :)

Gnight, Janet. Sweet dreams.

Posted by: Carla at March 27, 2009 1:15 AM


Carla,
If you are still there... I just went to the Operation Outcry site and saw that the U of Wisconsin is trying to build an abortion site for second term abortions. Maybe Jill could post on that and try to get more conversation going on about it!
Oh, I was able to post on your blog. It's OK. (I posted that I think you have a lot of funny friends.) You have your own comedy club over there! Nite!

Posted by: Janet at March 27, 2009 1:23 AM


HisMan, don't be taken in by the like of "Bad". I see proaborts posing as prolifers all over the internet, telling lies and twisting words. It was not an error, it was a deliberate attempt to diverty you from your goal.

Posted by: Doyle Chadwick at March 27, 2009 5:51 AM


Carla, Nice to hear from you too! :]

Posted by: Heather at March 27, 2009 6:37 AM


Janet,
Yes. I know. Wisconsin Right to Life is on it. Makes me sick to think about.

Thanks for the comment at my place. :)

Posted by: Carla at March 27, 2009 7:09 AM


Carla, I'm not sure if you're there, but how is Erin doing? She has been on my mind.

Posted by: Heather at March 27, 2009 8:19 AM


She has popped in now and again. :) Doing well from what she writes.

Posted by: Carla at March 27, 2009 8:27 AM


I'm great, Heather, I tend to lurk around a lot. Don't get involved in the conversations like I used to, I'm really busy with school- finally settled into a great college and a nursing program that I love, but it takes LOTS of work!

And still no regrets, which you were probably wondering too ;)

Posted by: Erin at March 27, 2009 8:53 AM


The irony of this post demands a comment.

About 6 months ago Leslie posted on her blog an article celebrating the death of the Denver PP head of security in a tragic motorcycle accident.
Ron may well have known of that outrage, which would make his expression of sympathy to her even more gracious.

Three days ago many posters on this site celebrated the deaths of several small children in a plane crash because of the activities of their grandfather.

I am sorry for the deaths of all the children, and express sympathy to all the parents and grandparents.

The final irony is "pro lifers" who wish death on innocent children because their grandparents don't conform to the "pro lifer's" political and religious views.

Posted by: Bystander at March 27, 2009 8:57 AM


The really Big God vision:

God is outside of the dimension of time. In human terms, it means that God knows everything simultaneously, and is not locked into past present future as we are. So it is natural for God to know the events which will happen and the things which precede them.

The omniscience and omnipresence of God is reconciled with the fact that there is free will, in this understanding.

The choices remain with us, and God knows what they are and what they will be, since it happens all at once in His view.

Understanding this, small-God theories such as predestination go out the window.

Posted by: KB at March 27, 2009 9:08 AM


KB,

"Understanding this, small-God theories such as predestination go out the window. "

Do you mean a total predestination of everything where there is no free will? If so, I think you're right, but I think there is a lot of biblical texts to show that God has predestined certain people to glory with him. Maybe we need to know what we mean by predestination.

Perhaps this will clarify; judging from your above remarks, KB, do you consider yourself a Molinist? God love you.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at March 27, 2009 9:17 AM


Three days ago many posters on this site celebrated the deaths of several small children in a plane crash because of the activities of their grandfather.

No this is NOT what happened on Jill's blog, though I'm sure you'd like this twisted view. Please don't post untruths.

Molinist? Yikes! Bobby do you believe in predestination?

Posted by: angel at March 27, 2009 9:31 AM


Bobby would you say the wikipedia entry on molinism is accurate? I'm honestly asking your opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

Posted by: angel at March 27, 2009 9:42 AM


Bystander,

I just re-read what I posted about Denver PP death-scort Stan.
BTW, I didn't write it, another rescuer did and I shared it.

There was no celebration, just sorrow that till his last minute
and even after his passing, he mocked God.

You owe me an apology for lying that I celebrated Stan's death.
I recall being shocked and sad that he never repented before it
was too late.

I continue to pray Ron does.

Posted by: Leslie Hanks at March 27, 2009 10:23 AM


ERIN, hi! Actually I was just wondering what you were up to. I've always favored you a bit:] We've had some nice conversations!

Posted by: Heather at March 27, 2009 10:36 AM


Angel,

Yes, I think the wiki entry is a pretty good one. As far as my belief in predestination goes, there are many ways that people understand it. I think in its most accurate sense, teh word predestination refers to God's ordaining plan through out history as to how all events will unfold according to his perfect and permissive will, and it is carried out through his divine providence. Predestination and providence are inextricably linked. This I do believe. One then gets into the very complicated questions of free will and divine sovereignty, and you have competing theories to explain HOW that all fits together, most notably Molina's theory of the scientia media or middle knowledge (known as Molinism) and the Thomist view of efficacious grace and the principle of predilection. It is well worth noting that as a Catholic, one may hold to either the Thomist view or the Molinist view and still be in good standing with the Church. It is an open question.

But onto the way most people think of predestination; as God decreeing that from all eternity, certain people will go to heaven. Then there is double-predestination which says that God not only wills certain people's salvation, but others their damnation. The Catholic Church (and I in particular) unequivocally condemn double predestination. But I do believe that God infallibly preordains certain individuals to eternal life (I think this is doctrine, give me some time to try and find it), all without doing harm to their free will. How and why? Well, that is what Molina and Aquinas (and others) attempt to answer. The Church proposes certain teachings for our submission of faith, but does not necessarily hammer out all the details of how it woks.

So in at least a couple senses, I do believe in predestination, but that it is all accomplished without doing harm to our free will AND that God wills ALL to be saved. A really great book on this by IMHO the greatest theologian of the 20th century Fr. Reginald Garrigiou-Lagrange is "Predestination." Hope that makes a smidgen of sense, and I'll try and see if I can find where the Church teaches about predestination to glory. God love you.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at March 27, 2009 10:39 AM


Carla, I didn't mean to be rude. I've missed you as well!

Posted by: Heather at March 27, 2009 10:45 AM


OK. According to Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, the following statement is de fide "God, by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to enter blessedness." He then cites Dezinger's Sources of Catholic Dogma. The following Canons of Trent are pertinent:

Canon 15. If anyone says that a man who is born again and justified is bound ex fide to believe that he is certainly in the number of the predestined, let him be anathema.

Canon 16. If anyone says that he will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation, let him be anathema.

Canon 17. If anyone says that the grace of justification is shared by those only who are predestined to life, but that all others who are called are called indeed but receive not grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema.

He also quotes the first 6 canons of the council of Valence, all concerning predestination. They are very, very long, not just small sentences like in Trent, and I haven't had time to read them to see if they are pertinent, nor can I find the text for Valence online. God love you.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at March 27, 2009 11:03 AM


"Three days ago many posters on this site celebrated the deaths of several small children in a plane crash because of the activities of their grandfather.

I am sorry for the deaths of all the children, and express sympathy to all the parents and grandparents.

The final irony is "pro lifers" who wish death on innocent children because their grandparents don't conform to the "pro lifer's" political and religious views.

Posted by: Bystander at March 27, 2009 8:57 AM"
______________

Why does being a pro-abort and being a liar go hand in hand?

Reading the comments on that post I saw no comments by true pro-lifers "celebrating" the deaths of those precious children.

Regarding the few whack job comment that did say "good riddance" or whatever, they were probably pro-aborts like you posing as pro-lifers so you could say what you just said about us pro-lifers. So Obama like.

No honor among thieves I guess. You pro-deathers will stoop to whatever level it takes to advance your demonic agenda.

Posted by: HisMan at March 27, 2009 11:06 AM


Heather,
No worries.
How were you rude??
I have a very soft spot for Erin too. :)

Posted by: Carla at March 27, 2009 11:15 AM


Carla, I should have asked how you were doing first. I usually let the computer stay on as I run in and out of the house. I post first and think later:/

Posted by: Heather at March 27, 2009 11:25 AM


Well, it's good to hear from you, Heather! I hope you have been foing well also?

Posted by: Erin at March 27, 2009 11:45 AM


Erin, I'm doing well. WOW! Everyone is going to nursing school. Just about everyone here is in some program or another. Where will they put us all? Did you hang up the waitressing? I think you will make a great nurse. I used to stick sewing needles in my dolls as a kid. I knew then that it was my calling.

Posted by: Heather at March 27, 2009 12:01 PM


However, I stuck to being an LPN.

Posted by: Heather at March 27, 2009 12:03 PM


Erin, I was thinking about the Halloween haunted house the other day, and I had a laughing fit to beat the band. Do you remember where you wrote *snort*?? That was a crack up!....It was good to have a laugh after all the crying I did when Obama won.

Posted by: Heather at March 27, 2009 12:08 PM


Leslie, may God comfort and bless you. Let me share one of my favorite scriptures:
Isaiah 65:17-25

"Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight, and its people a joy. I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.
Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth, and he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.
They will build houses and dwell in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit. No more will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. For as the days of the tree, so will be the days of my people; my chosen ones will long enjoy the works of their hands. They will not toil in vain, or bear children doomed to misfortune; for they will be a people blessed by the Lord, they and their descendants with them.
Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,"
says the Lord.

(and Bystander, Bad, etc: The only person who said "Good riddance" mistakenly thought the abortionist died, and even he was unhappy about the children.)

I hope Ron comes to true repentence.

Posted by: YCW at March 27, 2009 12:18 PM


Heather, yeah, I had to leave waitressing- the hours don't fit well when you're going to school full time. I'm trying to find a nice part time job, but it's hellish! Unemployment in GA hit double digits recently, I believe. It's a bit of a mess down here economy-wise. But yep, I'm going for an RN license eventually, looking at either trauma or mental health nursing, I have plenty of time to decide, though!

Posted by: Erin at March 27, 2009 12:28 PM


Hey Studly"

Calvinism v. Armenianism.

I think also that God knows all, sees all and therefore, "predestines" those who will be saved, not "chooses beforehand" who will be saved.

It is in fact every single person who is born was "called" or predestined to be a follower of Christ, however, few are chosen, i.e., accept Christ.

This is a very deep subject and sometimes our puny, three dimensaionl minds, cannot grasp the majesty of God.

Does that make sense, Mr. Studly man?

Posted by: HisMan at March 27, 2009 12:33 PM


Erin, Ohio has been hit hard too. A big hospital over here just let all of their LPNs go. It's now RNs and STNAs. The LPNs are all being flushed into LTC.

Posted by: Heather at March 27, 2009 12:35 PM


I hate to be a downer, but it's only going to get worse in my opinion.

Posted by: Heather at March 27, 2009 12:38 PM


Carla, I've been trying to e-mail you, but I cannot seem to do so. May I leave you my e-mail address under your comment section?

Posted by: Heather at March 27, 2009 12:56 PM


Bobby thank you for that.
I really am bothered by this line:
But I do believe that God infallibly preordains certain individuals to eternal life (I think this is doctrine, give me some time to try and find it), all without doing harm to their free will.
Not because I disagree with you but because I think it quite plausible and that's what bothers me.
I can't help but think of Francisco and Jacinta, visionaries of Fatima who were told that they would go to Heaven (although in Francisco's case he was told he had to say many rosaries!). It seems to me like they were predestined for Heaven.
This is a whole area I wasn't really cognizant of.

Posted by: angel at March 27, 2009 1:18 PM


Angel,

Well, as you know, Fatima is private revelation so we may take it or leave it. Also, and I know you aren't doing this, but just in general, remember that private revelation should be interpreted in light of dogma, not the other way around. That being said, what Our Lady said to the children does indeed square well with a predestination to glory. So that's a good example. God from all eternity ordained that they would be saved.

Now, the question is what is the BASIS for that? Was it based on God foreseeing the fact that the children would believe in Jesus? Was it totally gratuitous? etc. And this is where we get into speculation as above, that Catholics can hold to a variety of beliefs as to the grounds of God preordaining certain people to heaven.

So if I understand you correctly, is what really bothers you just the fact that all this is so new to you?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at March 27, 2009 1:25 PM


Bobby, Hello! There you are! Thanks so much for the great read, THE HAND OF GOD. Excellent book!

Posted by: Heather at March 27, 2009 1:30 PM


Of course Heather.

Posted by: Carla at March 27, 2009 1:30 PM


Carla, thank you;}

Posted by: Heather at March 27, 2009 1:31 PM


HisMan,

I'm not as farmiliar with the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, but I do know that this question is quite pertinent to it.

I agree that we are all called to follow Christ. I don't know if you have ever studied it in these terms, but your line

"I think also that God knows all, sees all and therefore, "predestines" those who will be saved, not "chooses beforehand" who will be saved."

is very reminiscent of Molinism. I think you might find that idea convincing. Like I said above, even to a Catholic, it is a legit theory, and it's the one I always use when trying to explain free will vs. God's sovereignty to the skeptic because it's a lot easier to understand and makes sense to a lot of people. The Thomistic view is really tricky, and even if true, hard to convince people of. There is an old joke about Dominicans:

A man was parachuting and got stuck in a tree. A man dressed in religious garment walked by, and the stuck parachuter yelled out

"Excuse me! Can you tell me where I am?"

"Why, you're in a tree." replied the priest.

"You must be a Dominican." responded the parachuter.

"How did you know?" inquired the Dominican.

"Because what you say is true but it isn't helpful."

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at March 27, 2009 1:37 PM


Oh hey Heather! I was wondering if that was "you" or not. You're most certainly welcome. Nice to see you back. God love you.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at March 27, 2009 1:38 PM


So if I understand you correctly, is what really bothers you just the fact that all this is so new to you?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at March 27, 2009 1:25 PM
no it's the idea in italics because I always thought that Catholics didn't believe in predetermination, at least not the way other Christian faiths do, as this would interfere with our free will. But it is something I haven't thought alot on.

good joke BTW!

Posted by: angel at March 27, 2009 1:42 PM


Bobby: one other thing I just thought of.
I read a very good bio on Mother Theresa last year by Kathryn Spink.
In this bio, Mother Theresa stated that some people are destined to be very wealthy in this life - have a beautiful home etc while others, God destines to be poor, even destitute. I have thought alot about this and I believe Mother is correct.
It seeems to be coroborated by experiences and people I know in my own life.
Very interesting idea. I would never have thought of it.

Posted by: angel at March 27, 2009 1:50 PM


Bobby, thank you!

Posted by: Heather at March 27, 2009 1:53 PM


gosh, HisMan, what's with the "Studly" thing! lol
You're making Bobby *blush*!

Posted by: angel at March 27, 2009 1:55 PM


"as this [predestination] would interfere with our free will"

Right, and the thing that we must keep in mind is that it NEVER interferes with our free will. These are some of the things that we as Catholics believe and that theologians have tried to reconcile:

1. We are all given sufficient grace for salvation, so that if we are not saved, it is our own fault.

2. God desires all men to be saved.

3. God predestines some to heaven, yet without doing damage to the free will.

This is why the great Fr William Most has an 700 page book with small font and huge pages called "Grace Predestination & Salvific Will God."

BTW HisMan and I calling each other "stud" goes back to an Eduardo Verastigi post where I called Eduardo a stud :)

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at March 27, 2009 2:09 PM


Bobby: I knew the first two but not the third. Thank you. I learned something today worth knowing!

BTW HisMan and I calling each other "stud" goes back to an Eduardo Verastigi post where I called Eduardo a stud :)

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at March 27, 2009 2:09 PM

I'm taking this to mean, you are NOT blushing! hehe

Posted by: angel at March 27, 2009 2:13 PM


"I'm taking this to mean, you are NOT blushing! hehe"

Ha! Not bloody likely! (said in a Cockney accent)

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at March 27, 2009 2:41 PM


Ha! Not bloody likely! (said in a Cockney accent)

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at March 27, 2009 2:41 PM

;-)

Posted by: angel at March 27, 2009 3:32 PM


Now now, the only Cockney accent I need to be hearing is that of my dear hubby (or his dad... the whole family, really!)

Actually, if Dad heard me call it Cockney he'd probably have my head! LOL

Just so you know guys, I may be MIA for a few days. We're moving (not far, just a bit farther north in the same city).

As for the RN thing, yes, times are tough, even for us. Can't risk losing a job you've got, even though there's a shortage, no one is hiring. They're just working us all short-staffed.

Posted by: Elisabeth at March 27, 2009 4:03 PM


Studly:

I am laughing.

Sorry it didn't help you.

Posted by: HisMan at March 27, 2009 7:12 PM


Bobby Bambino,

The really Big God vision, of course is focused on the nature of God.

God is really too huge for the human brain, but some of the Cosmologists, and people who think of the relativity of time are touching on the nature of God sometimes.

God is outside of time. The reason people work with such ideas as predestination, or even worry about it, is that they can't imagine not being constrained by time.

For God, everything is Simultaneous. Your birth, life, death, and finally feeding the grass, are seen as happening all at once, along with the rest of history, present and future.

Since God is unconstrained in the dimension of time, then predestination isn't real. The erroneous perception of it by humans is a result of being trapped in linear time.

For Mary to state the future of a person means seeing a part of the view of God, and that means slipping out of the dimension of time.

God is outside of the other dimensions too, but I guess time is the dimension that limits people's vision of God the most, and causes all sorts of inaccurate perceptions. Atheism is the protestant sect of small God religion. (Protestant is being used as an adjective there, not a denominational name).

We're talking about the Creator of the universes here.... really really Big.

Posted by: KB has a baaad blog at March 28, 2009 9:06 AM


did you know, that at least half of the people who go to those abortion abattoirs don't survive? at least half?

Posted by: herman at April 9, 2009 4:15 AM