"...we hope for this to be the basis of an engagement with him"
=========================================

What engagement is he talking about??

Obama is there to receive and award and talk about himself.

There is no "engagement" nor "dialogue" that will happen...he is deluding himself and his community.

How often have we seen this? People act outrageously and then fault the people who simply point out how outrageously they're acting as extremists.

By simply pointing out that Fr. Jenkin's invitation to President Obama goes against Catholic teaching, we are labeled extremists who are against an institution of higher learning.

I am outraged with the leaders of our church, is it going to be the laity that take a stand. We are told, not to question the church, but who at this point is doing the job in the USA. Why have they not stopped this, and tell ND, no way. This is not a secular college.
If you want to convert Obama, do it at another time, not a Catholic College Graduation. My sons would not be attending, nor anyone of my 60 some neices, and nephew who could be students there. Why? Because Obama represents, Pro-Choice, and liberal view that endanger the life God created. We are sending a message to the whole world, and lately we have been doing this allot.
That we say, what we say, but we do not live by it, even at the top in this country.

Teach us to stand for Christ, teach us that in defending life, the one true church and Christ, we are doing God's will.

Doreen Carter
Irish, Catholic, and discussed.

Predictable. In my head, I could right the "automated response" that could come from the ND leadership: "We don't endorse his policies, but he is a great leader nonetheless."

Indeed, Jesus would eat with the Pharisees and Gentiles. I, myself would be remiss to have the opportunity to meet the sitting President of the United States and it would be wrong for me to reject him.

Now, here's the real deal - that's a cop out in the most despicable way. The fact of the matter is that the Church is in the middle of an all-out cultural battle against the deaths of millions of innocent children. The most powerful ally of the opposition just got invited to speak at one of the most prominent institutions belonging to the Church.

Can you imagine the response if Bush, Jr. had been invited to speak at a Planned Parenthood rally? ("Yes, he disagrees with us on a number of policies, but we respect him for his leadership.") I think that would not happen.

What's really upsetting to me is that I know there are better speakers out there. Notre Dame had the choice between a publicity stunt and a speaker consistent with their values. They had the task of inviting someone who, maybe one day, their students could aspire to be. A Mother Theresa, a great priest, a prominent Catholic politician who lives out Catholic values. Out of all these people, they selected Obama.

If there are ND people that want me to stay away from this rally, I'm going to in turn ask them to stay away from my faith.

Not sure if you've heard yet, but Bishop D'arcy won't be attending commencement, in protest.

http://www.americanpapist.com/2009/03/flash-bishop-darcy-will-boycott-notre.html

My dad and I have been discussing this, and he wrote the following to me, which I found very insightful.

"Here is the real pity about this decision by ND. Obviously, we will never persuade Obama that his positions are wrong--he is too morally obtuse for that to happen, steeped as he is in the modern culture and its values. Our only hope of influencing him is politically: does he risk alienating the "Catholic vote," which was necessary to his election, by anti-life positions? If he fears loss of support, he can be induced to at least moderate his positions. The message from ND is that he need not worry. There is nothing he can do to lose the support of "mainstream" Catholics. That vote is locked up, so he can feel free to do as he pleases. Most people in this country, some Catholics included, see ND as THE voice of the Church. So, this is much worse than some little school hosting Obama. It is green light for him not to worry about Catholic voters and to continue the killing spree So, "what else is there" is trying to limit the effect of the demonic man, which ND has made much harder."

"These "crucial differences" in positions on the protection of life are not being ignored in extending the invitation to the president, Jenkins said, but rather can be used as a catalyst for dialogue."

catalyst for dialogue? yea, right.

You're full of it. What a disgrace.

Bobby, in a matter such as this, can we expect Fr J's superior in his congregation to make a public statement? Or do they leave that to the bishop?

Thanks for sharing your dad's thoughts. He nailed it.

That's a good question, Fed Up, and I'm not sure. I would think this would be a matter left up to the Bishop, because I believe he is the one who has jurisdiction over how the Catholic University in his diocese runs. Perhaps there is something about it in JPII's Ex Corde Ecclesiae http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_15081990_ex-corde-ecclesiae_en.html ...

So from Ex Corde Ecclesiae, Article 5 paragraph 2, we read

"§ 2. Each Bishop has a responsibility to promote the welfare of the Catholic Universities in his diocese and has the right and duty to watch over the preservation and strengthening of their Catholic character. If problems should arise conceming this Catholic character, the local Bishop is to take the initiatives necessary to resolve the matter, working with the competent university authorities in accordance with established procedures(52) and, if necessary, with the help of the Holy See."

That seems to indicate that the Bishop has a duty there...

yes, Bobby. Sounds good, I mean, bad. :(

Oh and here is this too

"28. Bishops have a particular responsibility to promote Catholic Universities, and especially to promote and assist in the preservation and strengthening of their Catholic identity, including the protection of their Catholic identity in relation to civil authorities. This will be achieved more effectively if close personal and pastoral relationships exist between University and Church authorities, characterized by mutual trust, close and consistent cooperation and continuing dialogue. Even when they do not enter directly into the internal governance of the University, Bishops "should be seen not as external agents but as participants in the life of the Catholic University"(27)."

If you do a search find for the word Bishop in the Apostolic Constitution, it becomes pretty clear that the local Bishop is to have a major role in keeping the University Catholic as well as being the "go-to" guy in controversies like this. So it does seem to me like this is a matter for the Bishop to settle.

Your organization and the entire Catholic Church had the opportunity pre November to take a firm stand on these issues. For all intents and purposes, you let it pass by with nary a whimper.

Now you propose spoiling the graduation of hundreds of good Christian students by your too little too late protests.
It will accomplish nothing in the final analysis.

Use the political process for your grievances. Leave the University forum alone, lest you end up with the Georgetown's of the world representing Catholic higher education.

Seems like the mainstream Catholics are not as angry with Obama as some commentators here. Maybe Obama isn't really that bad? Just a thought.

It is our day, not yours. Show a little respect.

Sean Lyttle
third year law
-----

Sean - what have you learned? If the unborn gave their lives for your freedom would you speak the same way? Of what use is law, if you fail to comprehend the underlying principles? Is law nothing more than self-delusional sophistry for profit?

You find the thought of bloody photos merely disrespectful? Were you on the receiving end? They are your generation!

Your self-focus and unwillingness to live for others when the unborn had no choice in the very country that promises to secure the God given rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is nothing more than arrogant childish pride.

Christ turned his will towards his Father's to put an end to the wrath of self-centeredness.

You may desire a degree, but in the true test of life you're failing.

"For all intents and purposes, you let it pass by with nary a whimper."

What the heck?

Bobby, I just read on another site that his is an order of pontifical right. If that's true, it helps me better understand Bishop D'Arcy's statement.

HisMan, I apologize. If Fr J's order is under the direct authority of the Holy See, then I was wrong to say on the other thread that this is a matter for local officials. Will be interesting to see if the nuncio gets involved or makes a statement.

"President Obama has recently reaffirmed, and has now placed in public policy, his long-stated unwillingness to hold human life as sacred. While claiming to separate politics from science, he has in fact separated science from ethics and has brought the American government, for the first time in history, into supporting direct destruction of innocent human life."

This guarantees, along with the Obama Adminstration's desire to divide Jerusalem, our conutry's destruction as God will now lift His hand of protection and make us vulnerable to the destructive desires of our enemies.

It is absolutely incomprehesible that you pro-aborts and nominal, lukewarm Catholics can't see this. Therefore, this must be more than just human will at play and simple rebellion. This is satan at work, supernaturally blinding the hearts and minds of people, even believers.

Why now you may ask? Because the vast majority of Americans, and many believers are willing participants.

And this statement by Jenkins is just utter and total, post-modern, Pharisaical, doublespeak BS. Therefore I request Jenkins to make a specific caveat at Obama's introduction that he is in total disagreement with Obama's death stance and willingness to deficate all over everything sacred: ""The invitation of President Obama to be our Commencement speaker should in no way be taken as condoning or endorsing his positions on specific issues regarding the protection of life, such as abortion and embryonic stem cell research," Jenkins said.

These "crucial differences" in positions on the protection of life are not being ignored in extending the invitation to the president, Jenkins said, but rather can be used as a catalyst for dialogue.

"We are not ignoring the critical issue of the protection of life. On the contrary, we invited him because we care so much about those issues, and we hope for this to be the basis of an engagement with him," Jenkins said.

"You cannot change the world if you shun the people you want to persuade, and if you cannot persuade them, show respect for them and listen to them," he said."

Can you hear me wretch? The stench is overwhelming.

The solution for us believers is to draw close to God as never before in prayer, in devotion, and in intimacy with our Lord Jesus Christ for this country has never been in such grave danger.

I predicted the economic meltdown over 24 months ago and now I predict this country's utter destruction before the end of the year apart from a great awakening and repentance of the church.

National right to life needs a new hobby. After 8 years of Bush it is still legal. Time to find another issue. Oh yeah, anyone can sign that thing multiple times so it has little value.

Being a Protestant I realize that I am somewhat on the sidelines of this debate at Notre Dame.
On the otherhand, I can attest that the issue of defending defenseless preborn children is much broader than a debate within Catholicism. It is essential Christianity and essential humanity that is being compromised and thrown out by John Jenkins and the Notre Dame administration.

Rodney King,

Just so you know 8 years in a struggle to end an evil is miniscule. It took decades of struggle to end slavery.
It then took decades of more struggle before black Americans were even granted civil and voting rights.
Thankfully no one involved in these struggles saw any need for a "new hobby" after 8 years.

Fed Up, no problem I love you as a sister in Christ:

Perhaps you understnad me now when I say this has the potential to do permanent and great harm to the Church I found Christ in. I do not want this to happen. But, it is also a chance for the Church to have a major breakthough against abortion....do you see it? I love that Church, I just disagree with it, and that show's how much I love it, to say what needs to be said for it's good. If more Catholics did this, the Church would blossom into the awesome and spotless rose that God intends to be. Do you understnad me now?

The biggest mass protest against abortion in history should be staged at Notre Dame and this by on-fire for the Lord Catholics.

If it's organized I will go and I will hold signs, and I will yell, and I will scream bloody murder, and I will speak hellfire and brimstone to Mr. Obama to his face. The media can the call me HisMan the Engineer. And he'll see the real face of the anti-abortion movement.

"...and now I predict this country's utter destruction before the end of the year"

You also predicted a secret Obama video would sink his campaign, so I'm not betting on your predictions anymore.

I'm actually quite comforted to know we've got Obama in these difficult times.

Therefore I request Jenkins to make a specific caveat at Obama's introduction that he is in total disagreement with Obama's death stance

Uh oh, HisMan :D I find myself in complete agreement with you. I was thinking the very same thing last night, except that I'd add that he and the Catholic Church which he and the university represent are in disagreement with his pro-death stance. Still, it doesn't give him any wiggle room for the honary degree, which irks me more than giving him a platform for his rhetoric.

Hal 4:22PM

Why?

Mary: Why?

He's smart, creative, compassionate, and competent.

There's a reason his approval ratings have remained high.
He deserves it.

You may disagree.

Wow, look how ineffectual the anti-abortion movement has become. Most Catholics voted FOR President Obama in November. Protesting the Notre Dame graduation won't accomplish anything except possibly turning even more Catholics against the anti-choice movement.

I'm glad you're doing it. If nothing else, it will get a lot of the nuttiest nutcases away from the clinics for the day. Women wanting abortions would be wise to schedule their procedures for May 17.

Hal,

Doesn't answer my question. What is the man actually doing that is smart and competent?

Reality,

Just so you know abortion has never been a "Catholic" issue. That was a ploy your side used to rally support for abortion by giving supporters a common enemy(the Catholic Church) against which all could rally, a tactic often used by hate groups to rally supporters.

anyone can sign that thing multiple times

Sounds like a quote from an ACORN voter registration guide :-P

Mary, so many things
A good appointment to the 7th Circuit court of appeals, good foreign policy decisions (engaging Iran, etc), good Gitmo decision, good stop torture decision, good appointments to the cabinet, good efforts on the economy, good stem cell research decisions, good politics (inviting Republicans to meetings, etc).

It's such a breath of fresh air. Believe me, Americans are happy with this guy.

Did not our Lord say, "I will be lifted up and draw all men unto me"?

How in the heck does Jenkins think that lifting up Obama before the impressionable and fragile minds and hearts of the very children (graduates) he has been given the responsibilty of shepherding over, fulfill this statement of Christ? It's just the opposite.

Or perhaps Mr. Jenkins you need to reread what happened when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness by satan for 40 days. Jesus did not appease satan, he did not "engage" satan, he answered satan with the word of God, "as it is written....' And you call yourself a theologian?.

Jenkins, as a priest sworn to allegiance to Christ, you are obligated to speak against all that Christ abhors and He abhors abortion.

In actuality Jenkins you are both tempting and blaspheming Christ by allowing this and bringing disgrace to His Holy name and His bride.

That's quite an irrelevant comment, Mary.

"You also predicted a secret Obama video would sink his campaign, so I'm not betting on your predictions anymore.

I'm actually quite comforted to know we've got Obama in these difficult times.

Posted by: Hal at March 24, 2009 4:22 PM"

Well, the video of Obama participating in a Muslim ceremony as a Muslim in Africa with his uncle never got shown and had it been shown McCain would be the President. I had no control over that.

I'm not sure who squashed it but it was defintely squashed. Probably ACORN as in Acorn Squash or perhaps the Obama goon squad. Oh, I know, it was the Obama media who squashed it because they knew it would bring him down by showing the world who he truly is.

I have a feeling you knew about the existence of the video all along as you appear to be entrenched in the Obama machine. I mean, why were you so afraid of it?

THe preoblem is Hal, you really don't have a clue. Your savior Obama is a hollow man and his sins will find him out.

Fed Up,

"I just read on another site that his is an order of pontifical right."

Do you have a link for this? Thanks.

Hal,

He appointed a judge, what brilliance. The Iranians have given us the finger in case you didn't hear. Gitmo prisoners will be released into the United States. Good cabinet appointments? You mean he actually found some that weren't tax cheats? Good effort on the economy. Hal, he enlarged the debt and has set us up for bigtime inflation. Good stem cell decision? Why are we wasting our time with ESCs when American citizens are travelling to China and Thailand for adult stem cell treatment?
Republicans were excluded from any input on the "stimulus bill".

Oh, a recent Zogby poll has Americans 50/50 on Obama. A recent Rasmussen poll has 56% approval to 43% disapproval.

Reality 4:47PM

How so? You mention Catholics, I just remind you that Catholics never had any monopoly on pro-life sentiment.

Fedup 4:37PM

LOL. Brilliant.

Hal, Mary pretty much hit the nail on the head. Are you really that brainwashed?

Every item you mentioned has been a specific FAILURE.

Hal,

I should have said the Iranians gave Obama the finger in response to his video outreach to them.
According to a middle eastern woman action like this is viewed with contempt by the Iranians, who see it only as weakness and a complete lack of manliness.

Mary:

You're not calling Hal a liar are you?

Or, are you not finding any difference between the actions and methods of Obama (lies, doublespeak, propaganda) and Hal's interpetation of them?

The Iranians have given us the finger in case you didn't hear.

They gave Bush the finger, too. Your point?

Gitmo prisoners will be released into the United States.

Only a handful of innocent ones who would face religious persecution if sent back to China. Are you conservatives in favor of Chinese religious persecution, now?

he enlarged the debt and has set us up for bigtime inflation.

Bush enlarged the debt by $5 trillion.

Good stem cell decision? Why are we wasting our time with ESCs when American citizens are travelling to China and Thailand for adult stem cell treatment?

Bush allowed embryonic stem cell research, too. Obama just eased the rules a little.

Republicans were excluded from any input on the "stimulus bill".

The tax cuts were put in especially for them.

Oh, a recent Zogby poll has Americans 50/50 on Obama. A recent Rasmussen poll has 56% approval to 43% disapproval.

Every reputable pollster, meanwhile, has him with 60% or higher approval, and disapproval in the 20% range.

I am a graduating senior at Notre Dame. Since the moment I heard that Obama will be at our Commencement Ceremony, I have been upset, outraged, and just angry. I appreciate the support for Notre Dame's Catholic identity that has been expressed by many Catholics and pro-lifers around the country.

But at the same time, I share some the opinions of the student quoted above.

Please, those of you who have no vested interest in Notre Dame, those of you who have never set foot on the campus of this beautiful university, those who know nothing of Notre Dame history, distant past or recent, those of you who haven't at least personally known a student here...STOP AND BREATHE. And let the students, faculty, and alumni be the ones to initiate any public action that will be taken in response to this. We would love to have your SUPPORT. And we will let you know if and when we need it.

But is it really so ridiculous for us to ask you to step back and NOT ruin our Commencement? Is it wrong for me to be incredibly angry and frustrated that there is actually a link on this website telling readers to go and book their travel arrangements to come and overtake the campus which we so love on the last weekend we will have together here to remember and celebrate? Is it wrong for me to be frightened, actually frightened, as to what will happen when the folks at stopobamanotredame.com find my classmates and I on campus in May in our academic attire?

Newsflash: Notre Dame is not Babylon. Father Jenkins is not Satan himself. The entire Commencement weekend WILL NOT BE MARKED BY BARACK OBAMA.

There are plenty of events that span May 15-17. Departmental ceremonies to honor graduates. Social events for the graduates to spend time together. The "Last Visit to the Grotto and Basilica" we will take as a class, a peaceful and prayerful event that really NO protester has the right to interfere with. Saturday night is marked with the Commencement Mass, likely the only major event which my husband, also a graduate, and our parents will be attending. Obama will not be there. Must you interfere with this as well?

What has been breaking my heart and breaking my classmates' hearts since we heard this news, in addition to all else that this means for the state of Notre Dame now and in the future and the watershed moment which this will be for Catholicism in America, is that Notre Dame will not be OURS for those last days. It will be the terrain of the protester. Instead of remembering the gleaming Golden Dome and the Lady who sits atop it, watching over us for these years, we will remember graphic abortion images and outspoken protesters. These things have their place, but their place is not on the campus of ND all Commencement weekend.

Jill, I have had your blog bookmarked for quite awhile. I have appreciated all of your links, news, reflections and occasional humor. But seeing that you are calling for all of your readers to descend upon my beloved Notre Dame, however far she may have fallen, on the weekend which is meant to be a celebration of my graduating class, hurts too much for me to continue being one of your loyal readers.

I would ask that you prayerfully consider whether traveling to South Bend is really going to accomplish what you hope it will. And if you find that it will not--please, call off the troops. At the very least, please, PLEASE get in touch with students on-campus to coordinate your efforts with theirs.

We as students are still planning our response, with a bit of reasoned reflection that would be a good idea for many of the groups whose swift reaction betrays very little contemplation as to the most life-affirming course of action.

In NOTRE DAME,
Rachel
ND '09

Reality,

Hal claims Obama has a good foreign policy and sites Iran as an example. I had to inform him the Iranians gave Obama the finger.

Sure, these Gitmo guys are innocent. You know this how? Gee Reality, you almost make it sound like they were better of in Gitmo whether than facing "religious persection" in their own land.
What's China got to do with this?
Its more likely they would just join up with terrorist organizations as some "innocent" ones have. Or maybe they'd go back to splashing acid in the faces of Afghan schoolgirls.

Yes Bush enlarged the debt, so why did Obama make it even worse?

Bush allowed ESC research on already existing lines. I don't know about you, but I find it very embarassing that American citizens must travel to foreign countries to enjoy the benefits of scientific research.

Reality, this bill was written by Nancy Pelosi. Republicans were excluded from any input. Even your hero had no idea what all was in the bill he signed.

Pollsters don't get much more reputable than Zogby and Rasmussen. Maybe its those "reputable" polls that need to be called into question.

HisMan 5:06PM

I'm very fond of Hal and consider him a decent man. I'm convinced he is caught up in a messianic trance that makes him totally oblivious to what Obama is doing to this country.
Various peoples and nations have been led to their own destruction in this manner.

The Iranians have given us the finger in case you didn't hear.

They gave Bush the finger, too. Your point? They were afraid of Bush and are not afraid of bowling ball head man. It's destroy Israel as planned. A nuclear war in the Middle East is imminent.

Gitmo prisoners will be released into the United States.

Only a handful of innocent ones who would face religious persecution if sent back to China. Are you conservatives in favor of Chinese religious persecution, now? No we're afraid of being nuked.

he enlarged the debt and has set us up for bigtime inflation.

Bush enlarged the debt by $5 trillion. He inherited a recession and fought a war against Islamic terrorism keeping us safe. Obama did not have to spend all this money so quickly. In fact, teh stimulus doens;lt kick in till late 2010. It's all smoke and mirrors. You will soon see the devastating effects of inflation and loss of teh value of the dollar. Why do you think the stocks of hard assets went wild yesterday? Oh, I know, you don't know. Yes, part of the Obama energy policy is to make gas go to $10 a gallon. Problem is bread will cost $5 a loaf and milk, $10 a gallon. Good eatin' to ya.

Good stem cell decision? Why are we wasting our time with ESCs when American citizens are travelling to China and Thailand for adult stem cell treatment?

Bush allowed embryonic stem cell research, too. Obama just eased the rules a little. Only those ceels that were already screwed. He didn't outlaw stem cell research he just stopped Federal funding of it.

Republicans were excluded from any input on the "stimulus bill".

The tax cuts were put in especially for them. Oh, and you forgot to mention that Bush's tax cuts all expire in 2010 when the stimulus bill kick in. You also conveniently forgot all the hidden taxes that are in the bill.

Oh, a recent Zogby poll has Americans 50/50 on Obama. A recent Rasmussen poll has 56% approval to 43% disapproval.

Every reputable pollster, meanwhile, has him with 60% or higher approval, and disapproval in the 20% range.

Are his 100 days over yet? He thinks he can fly all over the coutnry showing his bowling bowl head smile and keep his poll numbers up. When the crap hits teh fan they'll sink like rocks. It may to be late by then since he will have absolute dictatorial powers over this country when the constituional crisis hits.

Again Reality you haven't got a clue as to where this is all going, i.e, bankruptcy, food shortages, civil unrest, etc., etc., etc. However, you will soon learn what real suffering is.

The Iranians have given us the finger in case you didn't hear.

They gave Bush the finger, too. Your point?

Gitmo prisoners will be released into the United States.

Only a handful of innocent ones who would face religious persecution if sent back to China. Are you conservatives in favor of Chinese religious persecution, now?

he enlarged the debt and has set us up for bigtime inflation.

Bush enlarged the debt by $5 trillion.

Good stem cell decision? Why are we wasting our time with ESCs when American citizens are travelling to China and Thailand for adult stem cell treatment?

Bush allowed embryonic stem cell research, too. Obama just eased the rules a little.

Republicans were excluded from any input on the "stimulus bill".

The tax cuts were put in especially for them.

Oh, a recent Zogby poll has Americans 50/50 on Obama. A recent Rasmussen poll has 56% approval to 43% disapproval.

Every reputable pollster, meanwhile, has him with 60% or higher approval, and disapproval in the 20% range.

Posted by: reality at March 24, 2009 5:07 PM and answered by Hisman...

Mary, foreign policy advances take time. Obama made a good first gesture to Iran, let's see how it plays out over time.

HisMan:"I have a feeling you knew about the existence of the video all along as you appear to be entrenched in the Obama machine. I mean, why were you so afraid of it?"

When did I ever express any fear of this "video?" Mostly I have just mocked you for asserting it exists.

Bobby Bambino Wrote: "Our only hope of influencing him is politically: does he risk alienating the "Catholic vote," which was necessary to his election, by anti-life positions?"

Bobby - You do realize that a great percentage of Catholics do not agree with the Pope. They regularly laugh at his statements for being so out of touch with reality - about the halocaust, abortion, gay rights etc. the list goes on.

Obama is in step with the catholic vote. My entire family is catholic, they all voted for him. Bush and McCain understood only political catholicism, and not the actual faith life of the adherants. I suspect that the same is true for most of the Vatican cronies, including Razzi. By speaking only for short-term political gain, Razzi and his ilk loose spiritual authority.

YLT, let's just be clear on this little measure.

You can't be Catholic if you disagree with the Pope. You can go be a Unitarian if you'd like and say you have "Catholic leanings," but you are not a Catholic.

I'm not Catholic. I don't claim to be Catholic, but it irritates me to no end seeing people claim to be Catholic who disagree with half of what the Church teaches. Leave already!

Hal 5:25PM

Please Hal listen to what I'm saying to you. He blew it big time with the Iranians, ok? Live with it. That's according to a middle eastern woman who is an expert in this area. No matter how well intended, the gesture failed miserably. The Iranians responded with the middle finger.

Rachel,
Please, those of you who have no vested interest in Notre Dame, those of you who have never set foot on the campus of this beautiful university, those who know nothing of Notre Dame history, distant past or recent, those of you who haven't at least personally known a student here...STOP AND BREATHE.

Just about everybody knows SOMEbody who went to Notre Dame, so we all have a vested interest in what goes on there. I've been there and know 100+ people who have attended ND. I feel your pain. I pray that the University can sort this mess and that Obama will withdraw his acceptance of the invitation to speak.

Mary, I am listening to you. I'm just not agreeing.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to change my admiration of Obama's outreach to Iran based on this expert "middle eastern woman."

The Iranian people (according to NPR this morning) were very impressed and disappointed with the response from their government. It might be the beginning of a sea change over there.

Hal's a plant, I'm convinced.

Obama hasn't united anyone. He's forcing a wedge between the rich and poor which is going to tear us apart. The only ones who will survive are the lawyers.

Hal,

Its the leaders who will be making the decisions and they are not the ones he has made any kind of impression on. This woman was on a talk show, she is Lebanese. She has written extensively and I'm sorry I don't remember her name.
She stressed that the Iranian leadership, not people, would view this as weakness. In middle eastern culture you want to talk only because you are weak. He gave them the upper hand.
Apparently the Iranian people were impressed with Bush's outreach as well.

People were thrilled with Neville Chamberlain. Unfortunately he didn't impress Hitler very much.

Yo La,
There's a difference between having a Catholic mother and father and actually "being Catholic". It's not automatically passed from one generation to the next although too people seem to think so.
Catholicity is in one's heart, not in their genes.

Oops,

that's "too MANY people"

Hal's a plant, I'm convinced.

Obama hasn't united anyone. He's forcing a wedge between the rich and poor which is going to tear us apart. The only ones who will survive are the lawyers.
Posted by: Janet at March 24, 2009 6:00 PM

You "doom and gloomers" need to lighten up. Rich and poor alike are happy with Obama generally.

"Posted by: Rachel at March 24, 2009 5:15 PM"

Rachel,

It is Catholics like you who make me ashamed to be Catholic. Thinking of your "commencment weeked" instead of the bigger message here. This is not about you, it's about the Catholic church putting it's stamp of approval of legalized baby killing.

Janet:

You are right. This is Hal's job...to be a counter-productive force on a website that Obama fears.

"You "doom and gloomers" need to lighten up. Rich and poor alike are happy with Obama generally.

Posted by: Hal at March 24, 2009 6:22 PM"

No doom and gloom here Hal. I'm going to heaven. We're just trying to keep you from going to hell.

"Instead of remembering the gleaming Golden Dome and the Lady who sits atop it, watching over us for these years, we will remember graphic abortion images and outspoken protesters. These things have their place, but their place is not on the campus of ND all Commencement weekend."

This statement by Rachel is so evil, so evil, I don't know what to say. It's as if a segment of Catholics are possesed by the devil.

Bobby - You do realize that a great percentage of Catholics do not agree with the Pope. They regularly laugh at his statements for being so out of touch with reality - about the halocaust, abortion, gay rights etc. the list goes on.

Obama is in step with the catholic vote. My entire family is catholic, they all voted for him. Bush and McCain understood only political catholicism, and not the actual faith life of the adherants. I suspect that the same is true for most of the Vatican cronies, including Razzi. By speaking only for short-term political gain, Razzi and his ilk loose spiritual authority.

Posted by: Yo La Tengo at March 24, 2009 5:35 PM

sadly I have to agree with ylt
However, there are many traditional Catholics who do support the Pope.
Pope Benedict is not out of touch. He is quite aware that the majority of Catholics in the WESTERN world do not support him. And he's ok with that. What is important to him is that he remain faithful to Christ's teachings on marriage, sexuality, and commandments of God. And at great personal suffering, no doubt.

He has apparently told some that he believes the Catholic church will eventually have a very small number of truly faithful Catholics - a remnant so to speak. The rest will be what they are - chaff to be burned up.

There's a story out today that claims 43% of French catholics want the Pope to resign - because they don't like his teachings on sexuality, aids and condoms.

BUT:
Fr. Tim Finigan, a priest and theology professor and the UK's most popular Catholic blogger, wrote that the pope's reiteration of Catholic teaching on condoms shows he has "nerves of steel."

As Ken, HisMan and Fed-Up have stated, the battle has already been won. We just have to remain faithful.

"There's a story out today that claims 43% of French catholics want the Pope to resign - because they don't like his teachings on sexuality, aids and condoms."

Well, the pope is there to represent the people's wants and needs, as well as to try and keep as many Catholics as possible happy. Oh wait...

YLT,

I don't think you quite got what I was trying to say. The idea is that this acts as almost an "official" approval of Obama by the Catholic Church; at least, that's what the rest of the paragraph I post goes on to argue. Of course, that isn't what it is in reality at all, but many people, especially in America, think of ND as representing the Catholic church. It's an icon of American Catholicism, so it somewhat will "officially" let people know that American Catholics support Obama. I agree with what you said about most people being dissenters, but I mean, who cares, right? Take care.

Bobby, I saw the pontifical right comment on another forum. If you want the link, please email me. I don't want to invite trolling over there. The forum has links to the congregation but doesn't substantiate the claim of pontifical right over diocesan right.

I did a little research and I cannot seem to find the answer. If you have access to an annuario pontificio, they'd be listed there. The only online version I can find crashes my browser.

I also have a link for their constitution, if you want it. I can't determine if the reference there to the Holy See is standard lingo for all constitutions or only those reporting directly to the vatican.

Email me if you want the links I have.

Bobby, I think you are probably correct.

Read this from MercatorNet:

http://www.mercatornet.com/sheila_liaugminas/view/if_notre_dame_thought_they_scored_a_big_one/

for some other thoughts try this (if you have NO diapers to change!lol)

http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=OTBlNmY2NzM4ODdkNDY0NzRjMzA3OTZlYjg5YzcwYjU=

(forgot, the little one is probably in bed now!)

God bless

Well, the pope is there to represent the people's wants and needs, as well as to try and keep as many Catholics as possible happy. Oh wait...

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at March 24, 2009 6:55 PM

yeah, right! :0

Sean just proves what I said on another thread. ND makes graduates weak Catholics, if Catholic at all.

I signed the petition. I am disgusted that Notre Dame would do this. It could be worse, I suppose. They could have invited Jack Kevorkian!

Sean just proves what I said on another thread. ND makes graduates weak Catholics, if Catholic at all.

Posted by: Kristen at March 24, 2009 8:14 PM

what it really does is "innoculate" them against Catholicism/Christianity in general.
The late great Fr. Hardon said this made it even more difficult to re-evangelize these people - in fact harder than Christians had in the barbaric times during the Roman empire and afterward.
This is why so many "catholics" are so obstinate in their apostasy. They really don't believe they are wrong.

Angel:

Your comment is right on. Yes hypocrisy just breeds more hypocrisy.

Jesus explained it thusly:

Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."

Lauren! Thanks for the post at 5:41 PM!!!

any attempts at disrupting the commencement for these graduating notre dame students is shameful. the thought of pro-lifers waving around a bunch of tacky pictures of aborted fetuses on that wonderful day of ceremony is patently tastless and offensive, not to mention totally pointless.

Father John Jenkins, keep listening for the 'pop'.

yor bro ken

re: Lauren at March 24, 2009 5:41 PM

Not everything the pope says is meant to be (or is)infallible\ Ex cathedra. So yes, you can be catholic"'and disagree with the pope on quite a number of things.
However, that even having been said being catholic is about more than simply what the pope says it is - it is about the tradition of the popes that came before him - ultimatly, this pope, as with every previous pope, will be just a footnote in history. What good is allegiance to a pope if you forget your faith in God.

Who knows now that BHO is POTUS his pay grade may be high enough to answer Rick Warrens 'hard question':

At what point does a baby get human rights in your view?

Obama: "Well, yeh (sigh) djo, I, I, I think that wheeetheeerrrrr you are looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, uh, answering that question with specificity, uh, djo is above my pay grade."

You may desire a degree, but in the true test of life you're failing.

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at March 24, 2009 3:47 PM

How is making cheap one liners about people you have never met, as is your history, a sign of great intellectual merit? You proceed over the internet version of the Anti-Choice Jerry Springer show. I fail to see how this makes you one of the winners in life or in that arguement? I'm sure God loves you, but get off your high-horse, man - you're trying too hard.

What good is allegiance to a pope if you forget your faith in God.

YLT, you finally said something I agree with!

Who knows? Now that BHO is POTUS his pay grade may be high enough to answer Rick Warrens 'hard question':

Warren "At what point does a baby get human rights in your view?"

Obama: "Well, yeh (sigh) djo, I, I, I think that wheeetheeerrrrr you are looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, uh, answering that question with specificity, uh, djo is above my pay grade."

60 Minutes' Steve Kroft: [PBHO] "Are you punch drunk?"

(I believe Mr. Kroft just heard the 'pop')

Keep listening for the 'pop' all you misguided 'change devotees'.

There is nothing 'beneficial' to be gained from a conversation with a pathological liar.

Run, run as fast as you can from the presence of a fool or his folly may spill over on you.

There are three things that make the earth tremble—
no, four it cannot endure:

1) a slave who becomes a king,

2) an overbearing fool who prospers,

3) a bitter woman who finally gets a husband,

4) a servant girl who supplants her mistress.

yor bro ken

JJ, you know what's "tacky"? Killing 4000 children a day.

Notre Dame grad to pro-lifers: "Don't hijack our day"

It's too late. Father John Jenkins did that when he invited PBHO to speak at your commencement and made a decision to grant PBHO an honorary degree.

"Like snow in summer or rain in harvest,
honor is not fitting for a fool."

Your grief is not with those who may show up to express their disapproval with PBHO. Talk to the man who opened the can of worms. Your own Father John Jenkins.

Jenkins action only makes sense if he wanted to create a controversy.

Now like liberals are want to do, you are claiming victimhood status. You should invite the Ditzi Chicks to come and perforn at your post graduation ceremonies and get Michael Moore to document the events for posterity.

In the interest of tolerance, and academic freedom, and magnanimity you should invite Charles Manson to give the invocation and Sirhan Sirhan to give the benediction.

yor bro ken

YLT,
The Pope speaks ex Cathedra on faith and morals - exactly what is it that you think may dissent from believing and obeying? If he decides that everyone should wear white clothing, then you may dissent.

ken,
again -- more excellent points!!!

what it really does is "innoculate" them against Catholicism/Christianity in general.
The late great Fr. Hardon said this made it even more difficult to re-evangelize these people - in fact harder than Christians had in the barbaric times during the Roman empire and afterward.
This is why so many "catholics" are so obstinate in their apostasy. They really don't believe they are wrong.

Posted by: angel at March 24, 2009 9:05 PM

Exactly! I couldn't agree more.

Posted by: Rachel at March 24, 2009 5:15 PM

I have visited several times and have a BIL and SIL that both graduated from ND. I especially love the grotto and make a point to visit there every time I go. It is Our Lady's university and it is being defiled.

In the interest of tolerance, and academic freedom, and magnanimity you should invite Charles Manson to give the invocation and Sirhan Sirhan to give the benediction.
Posted by: kbhvac at March 25, 2009 12:00 AM

I'm sure you're not implying a comparison between the President of the United States and those two murderers.

we can't protest this decision, but ACORN can give bus tours of AIG executives who are receiving death threats?

give me a break.

Carl, no one says you "can't" protest the decision. You're being asked to do it respectfully or not at all. You're choice. Prepare for the backlash, however. The "pro-life" movement is already becoming viewed as pretty "fringe."

Hal the only reason the prolife movement looks "fringe" is because of the constant demonizing from the liberal media.

Lauren, any hint of recognition that maybe the demonizing is justified?

You guys are decent, committed and earnest. But, the idea that abortion is immoral is not a mainstream belief. Running around protesting a popular President with abortion photos might just turn off a few people, like those graduating and their families.

I think Fr. Jenkins KNEW this was going to be a controversial decision but I believe he felt the benefits would outweigh the costs. He could not have been more wrong.
Not only will he have lost a great deal of respect among his brother priests and fellow Catholics (not to mention the spiritual cost to his soul), but he has very much damaged the reputation of his institution.
The best way to remind Fr. Jenkins of this is to cease donations and sponsorships and send letters indicating that potential students will not be coming from families.

He's only been in office for TWO MONTHS and you're acting like he's the most popular president ever..... *rolling eyes*

He doesn't need to give the commencement speech at a university named for the most precious woman in the Catholic Faith, the Virgin Mary.

To give Obama an honorary degree from Notre Dame is galling. He's already been to big name school and had opportunity most Americans could never afford.

To have Obama give commencement speech at Notre Dame is obscene. Either Notre Dame is a Catholic university or it isn't. Don't let political correctness compromise your school. Obama does not deserve to speak to your graduates. He is an amoral fraud.

Lyn, I think Notre Dame can decide who to invite to speak at its graduation. And, they are probably in a better position than the rest of us to decide if the President addressing the event is consistent with its mission or not. When you run a University, you can pick the commencement speaker.

C'mon, if Obama had his way, the virgin Mary would have had an abortion to get rid of that pesky unwed teen mom situation! Seriously, he wouldn't have wanted the poor girl punished with a baby...

Shades of Herod.

Even if the leadership at the university cannot see the inappropriateness of this choice, it does not make the choice appropriate... there could be no less appropriate choice (well, maybe Tiller).

"C'mon, if Obama had his way, the virgin Mary would have had an abortion to get rid of that pesky unwed teen mom situation! Seriously, he wouldn't have wanted the poor girl punished with a baby..."

If Obama "had his way," Mary would have had a choice about whether or not to have an abortion.

If Obama had had his way, his "hero" Abraham Lincoln would have been abortion-murdered because the family was poor. And, your tax dollars would have been extorted from you to pay for it. Maybe next Notre Dame will invite Charles Manson to give a commencement address. After all, Manson only killed half a dozen people, while Obama went out of his way to enable the killings of millions.

If Obama had had his way, his "hero" Abraham Lincoln would have been abortion-murdered because the family was poor. And, your tax dollars would have been extorted from you to pay for it. Maybe next Notre Dame will invite Charles Manson to give a commencement address. After all, Manson only killed half a dozen people, while Obama went out of his way to enable the killings of millions.

I am totally disgusted that Notre Dame would put
its moral standing and beliefs on the line to invite Mr. Obama child killer to speak at graduation and to honor him with a degree no less. There's a reason for the protests, the Bishop not attending on his 25th year, and others not attending at all and rescinding their support. Is it worth it, Father Jenkins? I think not. Obama has not even shown Americans his
birth certificate, college records, etc.---he is
an amoral fraud as has already been stated here.
He does not deserve this honor. It's a DISGRACE.