Obama goads Fighting Irish

UPDATE, 4:45p:Email alert from Eric Scheidler of Pro-life Action League:

I've never seen a campaign take off like this!

punishment.jpgPeople across the country are OUTRAGED that President Barack Obama is scheduled to deliver the commencement address at the University of Notre Dame on May 17.

President Obama has attacked the sanctity of life - a central teaching of the Catholic Church - on a WEEKLY basis since taking office.

It's easy to understand why Obama would be eager to speak at Notre Dame. He's looking for legitimacy with Catholics....

Obama can see how strongly the Catholic bishops are speaking about the duty of Catholics to vote pro-life. He's trying to undermine their teaching authority so he can win re-election in 2012.

But what on earth is ND President Rev. John Jenkins thinking?

Why is Fr. Jenkins allowing this beloved Catholic institution to be exploited by the most pro-abortion president in U.S. history?

Whatever Fr. Jenkins is thinking, we have to keep up the pressure on him to drop Obama from the graduation ceremony on May 17.

So today I'm writing to ask you to do THREE THINGS...

1. CALL Fr. Jenkins office.

Lots of people have sent e-mails. I've received copies of many of these. But now we have to start making PHONE CALLS - we need to tie up the phones at N.D.

Fr. Jenkins' number is 574-631-3903. If you get a busy signal or the voicemail is full, try again in a couple of hours - or try again tomorrow.

2. JOIN the Facebook group protesting Obama's appearance.

Some pro-life students at ND set up this group over the weekend. If you have a Facebook account, please join the new group -- already nearing 1,000 members.

3. CLEAR your calendar for May 17.

If Fr. Jenkins doesn't do the right thing and dis-invite Barack Obama, pro-life groups from across the Midwest -- starting with the PLAL - have pledged to protest.

So be ready to join a once-in-a-life-time MASSIVE pro-life protest in South Bend, IN, on May 17.

If Barack Obama had deliberately set out to galvanize the pro-life movement, I don't think he could have done a better job than by accepting the invitation to speak at ND.

So as troubling as it is to hear about such a scandal, the good news is that pro-life Americans - of all faiths - are being inspired to take action like never before.
_______________

UPDATE, 4:10p: American Papist is on top of the ND scandal, reporting earlier petition signatures were coming into NotreDameScandal.com at the rate of almost 100 a minute. He twittered 35 minutes ago the count was up to 30k. I just checked and it's at 33.5k.
_______________

On March 20th, the White House announced, as reported by the LA Times:

Obama is sticking with the time-honored presidential commencement-speaking tradition in his first year: one military academy (Naval Academy, May 22), one public school (AZ State University, May 13) and one private school (Notre Dame, May 17).

john jenkins.jpgOf all the private schools in all the world, why did the WH pick Notre Dame?

To be fair, Fr. John Jenkins (pictured right), President of ND, had to make the request and is ultimately responsible, but it appears the audacious Obama is pouncing on the opportunity to continue his assault against conservative Catholics and the pro-life movement while wooing Cafeteria Catholics and the mushy middle on abortion. It worked for him on Election Day, why not now?

But perhaps President Abortion was persuaded by the honorary doctor of laws degree ND is incredibly bestowing upon him.

Ok, game on.

fighting irish.jpgPro-lifers upon hearing the news were immediately outraged. The movement is now in an uproar with plans made already to picket.

(I myself just made my South Bend hotel reservation. Was surprised there were still any rooms left.)

Citizens for a Pro-life Society, led by Dr. Monica Miller, is planning a protest from 12:30p to 3:30p on May 17th near the main thoroughfares leading to the campus. Details to follow.

A website with accompanying petition drive have been launched at www.notredamescandal.com, with over 17k signatures garnered just over the weekend.

Deal Hudson has a new piece up responding to Fr. Jenkins' anticipated excuses not to disinvite Obama.


Comments:

it appears the audacious Obama is pouncing on the opportunity to continue his assault against conservative Catholics and the pro-life movement while wooing Cafeteria Catholics and the mushy middle on abortion.

to be honest I think this is not quite what it appears to be. Notre Dame is Catholic in name only. It's an attempted slap in the face, with the appearance that a legit "Catholic" institute of higher learning is "lock and step" with "President Abortion" (great title for Obama, BTW!).

Any true blue (or green!) Catholic KNOWS that t here are very few truly Catholic universities left in America.
If he attempted to get in atthe Franciscan University of Stubenville, he would have been declined. Same with Ave Maria University, Magdalen College, Christendom College, Thomas Aquinas College and so forth.
These are the true Catholic colleges and unversities that follow the teaching of Catholic truth and are truly institutes of higher learning.

Posted by: angel at March 23, 2009 9:24 AM


sorry the first paragraph should have been in quotes! yikes!

Posted by: angel at March 23, 2009 9:25 AM


Any true blue (or green!) Catholic KNOWS that t here are very few truly Catholic universities left in America.

Very true, angel. Just goes to show that politicians aren't the only ones who give scandal. Universities are just as capable. That a "catholic" University would bestow an honorary degree on the man who threatens the existence of Catholic hospitals and other Catholic service organizations is quite a slap to orthodox Catholics, isn't it?

Thanks, Jill, for this post. I was hoping you'd give some attention to this issue. At least there will be one prolifer on the stage.
http://newsinfo.nd.edu/news/11292-mary-ann-glendon-former-u-s-ambassador-to-the-vatican-to-receive-notre-dames-laetare-medal

Posted by: Fed Up at March 23, 2009 9:50 AM


It's time we stop calling Notre Dame the "premier" or most prominent Catholic school in the nation.

It's a joke, and has been for a long time.

Posted by: Andrew at March 23, 2009 9:59 AM


"That a "catholic" University would bestow an honorary degree on the man who threatens the existence of Catholic hospitals and other Catholic service organizations is quite a slap to orthodox Catholics, isn't it?"

Anyone want to bet me that there will still be Catholic hospitals in eight years? 100 bucks?

Posted by: Hal at March 23, 2009 10:19 AM


Anyone want to bet me that there will still be Catholic hospitals in eight years? 100 bucks?

Hal, there may be. Question is, will they be Catholic name only?

Posted by: Fed Up at March 23, 2009 10:24 AM


My BIL went to Notre Dame. It's FAR from Orthodox Catholic and I don't want any of my children to attend. In fact I have already told my oldest (who has expressed an interest in going there) that I will not give her any money if she attends. She'll have to pay 100% herself.

This just cements my decision.

Posted by: Kristen at March 23, 2009 10:24 AM


Oops. Should have been Catholic in name only.

Posted by: Fed Up at March 23, 2009 10:25 AM


Dear heavens, can't he leave poor Arizona alone??? GO AWAY OBAMA... we don't want you here!

Posted by: Elisabeth at March 23, 2009 10:35 AM


before one sends their son or daughter to a catholic school, consult with the Cardinal Newman society. It exposes these fraudulent 'Catholic' universities. Boston College is in the same boat as ND.

http://www.cardinalnewmansociety.org/

Posted by: Jasper at March 23, 2009 10:37 AM


"Dear heavens, can't he leave poor Arizona alone??? GO AWAY OBAMA... we don't want you here!

Posted by: Elisabeth at March 23, 2009 10:35 AM"

He's making AZ a plaything by trying to win it in 2012 and also kicking dirt in the face of McCain. I hope it all backfires on him.

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 10:43 AM


I am Catholic and am outraged at this decision: If anyone wants to email them, here are some addresses and phones:


To contact Notre Dame:
Phone: (574) 631-5000
email form: http://president.nd.edu/contact-us

Notre Dame Fellows:
Rev. E. William Beauchamp, C.S.C., President, U. of Portland
(503) 943-7101

Patrick F. McCartan, Senior partner, Jones Day
(216) 586-7272
Email: pmccartan@jonesday.com

William M. Goodyear, CEO, Navigant Consulting
main: (312) 583-5700

list of all Notre Dame Fellows: www.nd.edu/leadership/fellows

To contact the USCCB:

Cardinal Francis George, President
Archdiocese of Chicago
phone: 312-751- 8200
email: mfox@archchicago.org

Most Rev. Robert J. McManus, Chairman, Committee on Education
Diocese of Worcester
phone: 508-791-7171
committee email: catholiceducation@usccb.org

To contact Notre Dame's bishop:
Bishop John D'Arcy, Fort Wayne-South Bend Diocese
Fort Wayne Chancery
phone: (260) 422-4611

Posted by: Andy at March 23, 2009 10:52 AM


James 4:4

4You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 10:55 AM


Jill,

Thank you very much for addressing this.

The Deal Hudson article, Notre Dame's President at a Crossroads and its comments that you link to are excellent. Here's the link again:
http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5649&Itemid=121&ed=1

Another good article by Deacon Keith Fournier:
Our Lady Weeps, The Struggle for Notre Dame is Engaged
http://www.catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=32757

Posted by: Janet at March 23, 2009 11:06 AM


Hey Andy:

I followed your advice and e-mailed this to the President Of Notre Dame. Guess my son won't be going there ....thank the Lord:

"Regarding your allowing Mr. Obama to speak at the 2009 Commencement Ceremony.

What a scandalous disgrace.

"James 4:4: You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God."

"1 Timothy 4:1-3 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth."

May the Lord deal with you in allowing President Abortion to poison the minds of so many impressionalbe youth.

You have no idea of the seeds of death you have sown by giving this Death President a voice.

Shame on you and may the shed blood of the innocent miliions of babies that will be slaughtered because of this man be on your head."

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 11:10 AM


I knew ND was not really Catholic, but I don't think that the general public knows this. Also, thanks for the info on real Catholic schools. I have 2 Junoirs in High school and we are doing college visits right now. We may be going to public schools, any advice on keeping them strong Catholics at public schools?

Posted by: lovethemboth at March 23, 2009 11:33 AM


Thanks Andy for the contact information. I am off to e-mail them right now.

Posted by: lovethemboth at March 23, 2009 12:11 PM


Go here to sign the petition:

http://www.notredamescandal.com/

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 1:33 PM


Just emailed Notre Dame. Too bad my BIL and his wife (both ND graduates) won't email as well. But then that's the type of people ND has been graduating. Not stronger, but much weaker "Catholics" willing to roll over and play dead to the beliefs of the Faith.

Posted by: Kristen at March 23, 2009 2:59 PM


Elisabeth, I'm in AZ (Phoenix metro area) and I wish Obama would stay away as well. Just being in the same state with that man gives me the willies.

Posted by: JoAnna at March 23, 2009 3:03 PM


Elisabeth, JoAnna:

I am in Phoenix also.

We should start a Jill Stanek fan club here, ha, ha.

Really, I think we should strategize on how to counter any of Obama's tricks here in Arizona.

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 3:36 PM


Really, I think we should strategize on how to counter any of Obama's tricks here in Arizona.
Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 3:36 PM

Tricks? Speaking at a University is a trick?

Posted by: Hal at March 23, 2009 3:46 PM


Choosing ASU was the trick... as HisMan points out... a form of slapping McCain in the face. Remember this is a man with the ego of a teenaged boy who never misses an opportunity to throw it in people's faces that "I won"... and now feels that he has the right, with a mere 52% of the vote to change the entire definition of what it means to be the United States of America.

And yes, I'm in the metro Phoenix area as well.

Posted by: Elisabeth at March 23, 2009 3:51 PM


My mom's an ASU alum. I told her she should start an alum protest.

Posted by: Lauren at March 23, 2009 3:54 PM


thanks Jasper for the link. I was on the site this morning to double check before I posted.

Hal: most publicly funded "Catholic" hospitals are currently NOT practicing medicine according to the "Catholic" tradition.
We Catholics are all very much aware of this with their contraception, abortion and DNR policies.
My guess is that there will start to be privately funded, truly "Catholic" hospitals and pharmacies.
It will take a while but these will come back.

Posted by: angel at March 23, 2009 4:00 PM


"Tricks? Speaking at a University is a trick?


Posted by: Hal at March 23, 2009 3:46 PM"

No, speaking at the premier university in Arizona (sorry Wildcats), the state of your presidential opponent and a state that you lost, now that's a trick.

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 4:05 PM


And don't forget this Hal:

Arizona failed on it's first try to get a marriage amendment passed to the state constitution and when the church here galvanized got it passed on teh second try.

Don't think for a moment that didn't go unnnoticed by Obama's homosexual supporters. Arizona is a pivotal state and you know this too.

So yea, it's a trick but, we will be there to protest this President Abortion.

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 4:09 PM


HisMan, Elisabeth: I'll bring up the topic at my church's Sanctity of Life group meeting this Thursday; maybe others would be interested in staging a peaceful protest or something.

Posted by: JoAnna at March 23, 2009 4:26 PM


How is Obama pouncing if he got an invite from a friggin priest? You're so one-issue focused that you forget that Obama is the President of the United States and to have someone of that title give an address at your university is quite a feat.

Posted by: Yo La Tengo at March 23, 2009 4:32 PM


Let me know, JoAnna... mommy-RN@live.com

Posted by: Elisabeth at March 23, 2009 4:39 PM


How is Obama pouncing if he got an invite from a friggin priest? You're so one-issue focused that you forget that Obama is the President of the United States and to have someone of that title give an address at your university is quite a feat.


Posted by: Yo La Tengo at March 23, 2009 4:32 PM

not if he's cold blooded murderer! He's already stated that he believes babies surviving abortions should be killed.
you can't get much cold-hearted than that!

Posted by: angel at March 23, 2009 4:54 PM


You're so one-issue focused that you forget that Obama is the President

Hardly, we just don't idolize him as you do. You fully support Obama's efforts to restrict the rights of Catholics to practice their various professions according to conscience. You know full well the hypocrisy of his being invited to a "catholic" university. Nice attempt at spin though.

Posted by: Fed Up at March 23, 2009 5:33 PM


In 2006, Father John L. Jenkins argued that "a Catholic university is where the Church does its thinking, and that thinking, to be beneficial, must come from an intellectually rigorous engagement with the world."

I will the first to acknowledge that engagement with the world' can teach Christians a thing or two about God. In fact I believe that it is a mistake for the body of Christ to abandon the market place of ideas to the humanist and the pagans.

I have this fuzzy recollection of the Catholic hierarchy cozying up to Adolph Hitler and the Nazi Party that in retrospect resembled appeasement and profited the Catholic church and catholics nothing. Most historians would agree that it was counterproductive on many levels.

I can understand why the Pope would feel some sort of obligation to meet with Madam Speaker Nancy Pelosi out of diplomatic courtesy, but he did not allow her to turn it into a photo op to be used for her political purposes.

President Obama is to the left of Pelosi politically and an even more ardent advocate of abortion of demand, embryonic stem cell research, and euthenasia. There is no justification for Notre Dame Universtiy to extend PBHO an invitation to speak, much less honor him a ceremonially degree.

This is a stain on the institution that will not quickly fade. Father John L. Jenkins can not plead ignorance. He is too intelligent to resort to that ploy and hiding behind 'academic freedom' will not play well with the rank and file of the body of Christ. Notre Dame University is private institution and they are in no way obligated to allow the schools prestige and reputation to be exploited by one so morally corrupt as PBHO.

PBHO can exploit a US Military Academy. He is after all the Commander in Chief and he can force is way in there, but a Catholic university is in no way obligated or encumbered.

I suggest that Father John L. Jenkins should engage in some rigorous engagement with the ONE who gives him breath. That interaction would be exceedinly beneficial for him.

yor bro ken

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at March 23, 2009 5:55 PM


"How is Obama pouncing if he got an invite from a friggin priest? You're so one-issue focused that you forget that Obama is the President of the United States and to have someone of that title give an address at your university is quite a feat.


Posted by: Yo La Tengo at March 23, 2009 4:32 PM"

One issue?

How about massive deficit spending?

How about dividing Jerusalem?

How about releasing terrorist prisoners?

How about embryonic stem cell research?

How about stacking his cabinet with the most despicable people in government?

How about his plan to make this country a socialist state?

How about born alive abortion?

How about his veracity?

How about his doublespeak?

How about his narcissicsm?

How about his inability to give a straight answer on when life begins but doesn't blink an eye at being willing to kill babies in the womb not knowing that?

How about calling babies a punishment from God?

How about dissing handicapped people?

Just to name a few.

No, it's not about one issue, it's the whole package we can't tolerate.

The priest who presides over ND should be severly disciplined by the pope. This priest is a disgrace to the RCC and has opposed and embarrased the Pope. This must be taken to the Pope and we'll see how infallible he is or, at the least, how consistent he is.

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 6:03 PM


Elisabeth:

A while back you asked me to e-mail you about creation science.

I just realized, based on your recent post, that I had the address wrong.

I have forwarded you the e-mail based on your first request.

I try not to ignore people.

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 6:12 PM


This must be taken to the Pope and we'll see how infallible he is

HisMan, I think you said on another thread that you're a former Catholic. If that's so, I can understand you wanting to get your digs in, but that's a little below the belt, isn't it? I think this should be addressed immediately with Fr Jenkins' bishop.

Posted by: Fed Up at March 23, 2009 6:17 PM


This priest is a disgrace to the RCC and has opposed and embarrased the Pope. This must be taken to the Pope and we'll see how infallible he is or, at the least, how consistent he is.

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 6:03 PM

please don't denigrate those Catholics among us by ridiculing our spiritual leader!
The Pope has NOTHING to do with this decision. It is up to the US bishops and in particular Fr. Jenkins superior to deal with him.

He will be accountable to our Lord for all his actions and especially so as a priest. He needs your prayers.

Posted by: angel at March 23, 2009 6:53 PM


Fed:

No dig was intended and I am sorry you took it that way. However, I don't compromise on matters of faith. I am actually trying to protect the Pope but perhaps I admit I didn't express this in the right way.

It is obvious that our Lord has drawn a line in the sand in this matter and everywhere and always He commands us to choose life:

"Deuteronomy 30:11-20 "11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

And the spiritual ramifications of this matter deserves attention at the highest level. Just think how much damage will be done to the Cathoic psyche if Obama is allowed to speak at Notre Dame. I wouldn't want to face my Savior knowing that I contributed to the stature and credibility of a man like President Abortion.

But then again, maybe the Lord wants to allow Obama to speak there to show the engrained hypocrisy in the church's leadership and to separate the wheat from the chaffe. I don't know. And much of the same hypocrisy exists in teh Protestant church as well. I mean Doug Kmiec was given a high profile voice at Pepperdine, a fundamentalist Church of Christ based institution. Perhaps the great falling away has begun.

If the pope rebukes and admonishes the ND dude and the Obama invitation is withdrawn, he will gain my respect and the respect of the nation and I might say of many nominal Catholics and will solidify the church's true stance against abortion. Otherwise, all the RCC talk about being against abortion is window dressing and you should take your bat and ball and go home.

I mean, wasn't it the Catholic vote that elected Obama?

My guess is that the pope will be hands off since the Vatican might not want to be seen as interfering in the politics of the US but I so much want to be wrong.

So, the pope has a real opportunity to impress me and many, many others like me, including Catholics. Will they suffer for such a decision? Probably, however, we are not called to be friends with the world. We are called to wield the Sword of the Spirit, the Word of God and that without fear.

This is a great opportunity for the RCC to stand up to the world system and make the right decision and to shine. I hope they don't blow it.

If the pope doesn't do anything I would hope that this will at least make you question where your true allegiance should be, to Jesus Christ, and not any man or "church system".

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 7:05 PM


HisMan... no problem, I figured you were just as busy as I am! I look forward to checking my email now!

Posted by: Elisabeth at March 23, 2009 7:11 PM


"The Pope has NOTHING to do with this decision. It is up to the US bishops and in particular Fr. Jenkins superior to deal with him.

He will be accountable to our Lord for all his actions and especially so as a priest. He needs your prayers.


Posted by: angel at March 23, 2009 6:53 PM"

Angel:

You couldn't be more wrong.

You cannot call the Pope the Vicar of Christ, i.e., Christ's representative on earth and tell me that the Pope bears no repsonsibility in this matter. The very public nature and high level of this situation demands a papal response. I really, really hope he does the right thing. I am praying for that.

If you don't understand this you don't understand your own church doctrine.

If the RCChurch is embarrased by this matter and if they bear the name of Christ, the very protector of that name - the Vicar of Christ has every duty to protect it.

Please don't deny this.

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 7:17 PM


Hisman,

Wow, I'm speechless.

Posted by: Janet at March 23, 2009 8:35 PM


no HisMan you are WRONG:
The Vatican cannot police every single priest at every moment in time!
Priests are answerable to their bishops who are answerable to the Papal Nuncio and ultimately the Pope. But it's not like Pope Benedict gets a telephone call tonight and he calls up Fr. Jenkins and tells him to behave himself!
For St. Peters' sake, think about what you are writing and get over your hatred of the Catholic faith.
Try and learn about the faith you left before you go stomping all over it!

Posted by: angel at March 23, 2009 8:50 PM


If the pope doesn't do anything I would hope that this will at least make you question where your true allegiance should be, to Jesus Christ, and not any man or "church system".

I'll thank you not to question my allegiance to my Savior, His Man. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any Catholics here criticize your sola scriptura approach. It'd be nice if you would give Catholics the same courtesy regarding matters of faith with which you disagree.

In your comment to Angel, you said, The very public nature and high level of this situation demands a papal response

You're entitled to your opinion, however the heirarchy of the Church might disagree with you. I certainly do.

If you don't understand this you don't understand your own church doctrine.

This kind of lack of charity to YOUR fellow member in the Body of Christ bothers me, HisMan. Disagreement with your opinion doesn't translate into failed understanding of doctrine.

the Vicar of Christ has every duty to protect it.

Of course he does. And he has a structure of authority in place to deal with it. Rather than allowing the matter to be handled locally, you want forceful action from the top. Therefore you've set yourself up to be disappointed by the Pope. When that disappointment comes, HisMan, I hope we won't experience it here with more of your insults.

BTW, I do appreciate your attempt to apologize. I can handle criticism of the Pope. I just don't appreciate you questioning anyone's love for Christ or ability to comprehend matters of faith because they disagree with you.

Have a pleasant rest of the evening.

Posted by: Fed Up at March 23, 2009 8:53 PM


Fed:

Not trying to question your faith.

Peace to you.

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 9:45 PM


Peace to you.

And also to you :)

Posted by: Fed Up at March 23, 2009 9:58 PM


HisMan,

Catholics do not worship the Pope, nor its Cardinals, Bishops, or Priests, We all have the same goal, to make it to Heaven, Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior too. Please find someone to talk to before your anger eats you up. Please.
Peace,

Posted by: Janet at March 23, 2009 10:16 PM


Janet:

No anger here, just the facts.

So you don't think the pope should get involved and if he does or doesn't it won't effect how most Catholics think about abortion?

To me that's illogical.

Help me understand.

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 10:20 PM


HisMan,

This discussion reminds of a cartoon where some poor fellow is clothes shopping with his wife and she has 'tried on' a new swim suit and asked her husband, 'Does this swim suit make my butt look big?

(In the cartoon the swim suit that was not causing, it was revealing.)

The look on the husbands face was complete bewilderment, like a deer transfixed in the headlights. There was no safe answer. If he said anything the situation was only going to deteriorate.

Circumstances had conspired against him.

What's a man to do?

I almost want to fall on the grenade for you.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at March 23, 2009 10:50 PM


HisMan,

Please bear with me. I say this out of love, not anger.

First , please don't blame the Catholic Church for failing to solve all the worlds' problems. If you are so concerned about the state of the Church, why don't you return to it and work from within instead of criticizing it from the outside where it's nice and cozy and easy?

Second, unrelated specifically to this issue, I'd recommend that you find a priest that you can trust (maybe ask around among your minister friends) and voice your objections about the Church to him, one on one. Let off some steam. What could it hurt? It's not like he'd kick you out of the Catholic Church, right?

Third, of course the Pope could get involved, and may get involved, but I believe he's an intelligent man who find it more prudent to sit back and see things play out a bit before he jumps into the fray. Wouldn't it be BEST if Notre Dame could come to the proper action on its own, without the Pope's intervention? A good father let's his grown sons fight their own battles, right?? Being the good father that you are, I'm sure you can understand that.

Fourth, have you thought about writing the Pope a letter yourself? You never know, he might answer you. He's very ecumenical, you know. Wouldn't that be a hoot?

Oh, and most importantly, don't forget point number two.

Posted by: Janet at March 23, 2009 10:51 PM


HisMan,

I recommend you watch, 'The Mission' with Robert De Niro and Jeremy Irons.

Might give you some perspective on the flaws of 'religion' in general.

It does have a great illustration of forgiveness. That alone makes the film worth watching.

There is some National Geographic bare breasts and some violence but I do not consider it gratuitous.

Sometimes the rank and file just don't get the big picture and the leadership has to make some hard decisions. The rank and file get to pay the price.

There is a line from the animated film 'Shrek' where the King is sending off his knights on a quest to find his bride to be. The kings says,

"I am well aware that some of you may loose your lives in this noble quest, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make."

'church' is as much political as it is religious as it is business. None of those have much if anything to do with the Spirit.

You remember when Stephen challenged the present religious system of his day. He touched their sacred cow, their edifice. Their response was to stone him to death.

You have entered a minefield. Tread carefully.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at March 23, 2009 11:11 PM


HisMan,

There is a thing called 'backtracking'. It has negative conotation, but it is not always negative.

It means to walk backwards be careful to step only in the foot prints you made when entered the minefield.

Tally Ho!

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at March 23, 2009 11:21 PM


That's good advice Janet.

Befriending a priest would actually be a good idea. Maybe I could convert him to true Christianity....just kidding...please be nice!

No really, that is good advice and an interesting thought. I obviously haven't dealt with some of he issues I have with the Catholic Church and I am sure my Lord wants me to be at peace with all men.

I will go into prayer about that. Returning in some capacity to enact change may not be a bad idea.

I think a truth that we all need to learn though is that no church denomination has all the answers and our faith is not in a church but in a Savior. My goal is to ask God where he wants me and then go there.

At the moment I feel I am being led to attend (not join) a Messianic Congregation, this does not mean that I will stop attending the other two churches I go to and the four or five Bible studies of different denominations each week. The Jews are, after all, the original branches and we Gentiles are merely grafted in. Yes, and I am truly free.

I go to a Monday AM Bible Study at an Assembly of God Pastor's office studying Proverbs.

On Tuesday AM, I go to a lawyer's office where lawyers, high profile business owners, developers and other's attend. Some are Catholic, some are Baptist, some are Pentecostal, some are just Bible thumpers. I have learned to hate lawyers at that study since they are convinced that they always no more than anyone else...ha, ha.

On Thursday AM I go a rowdy Men's breakfast at my church. Most men couldn't handle it. The men there are 100% on fire for God. We keep each other accountable and pray for oe another and kick butt if need be. We also encourage one another to help orphans, widows, single moms, the homeless, drug addicts, alcoholics, gang bangers, prostitutes, etc. It's hard core XXX Christianity.

On Friday AM I go to a men's Bible study that is more mundane and heavy on Scripture. The Pastor is a Jewish Christian and in love with Yeshua. It's a plant from the Greg Lurie/James MacDonald "Harvest Bible Chapel" in Chicago.

On Saturday night I play two softball games in a church "A" league and five of the ten guys are either exgangbanger hardcore drug addict types, some are plain duese, and others are former professional athletes. I play third base, 2nd base and sometime the outfield. This past Saturday I had a collison with a Pro-Bowler wide reciever and survived. I am very, very proud of the bruises I suffered. Man, I'd love to play football again.

Sunday AM, I go to one of three or four churches.

On Sunday night I usually always go to my home church Phoenix First Assembly "Sunday After Dark" where the music will tear your head off. My pastor is not afraid to try anything to reach the lost. A few weeks ago we had Sinbad there telling jokes, it was awesome.

Go to I-Tunes and search Phoenix First and you will get a sense of the music there.

So, I don't live as protected a life as you may think. And I thin you sometimes wrongly interpret my attitude as angry. Sometimes I forget there are ladies on this site. Sorry.

Oh and on Thursday, I go to the Ahtletes International luncheon where a Christian professional athlete gives his or her testimony. Now that one's amazing thing to see a Professional Athlete talking about Jesus with tears in his eyes.

We're trying to get Kurt Warner and Larry Fitzgerald and some of the other Christians on the Arizona Cardinals team in, however, that may need to wait until the June Conference.

Fitting a priest in might be difficult but I maight ask him to go to a Bible study with me and then breakfast.

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 11:46 PM


HisMan, now that Janet has responded to your question, may I? You asked

So you don't think the pope should get involved and if he does or doesn't it won't effect how most Catholics think about abortion?

1-How most Catholics think about abortion was evidenced in the last election, as you pointed out. Do you believe that a statement from a bishop or a pope will result in immediate transformation of minds and hearts? I don't. I wish it would, but I don't think it would.

2- Regarding the church heirarchy, please remember that it has a PASTORAL function as well as an authoritarian function. If Fr Jenkins has caused scandal, then his spiritual advisor and his superiors have a christian duty to address this with him. Father is still a member of the body of christ, he is still entitled to pastoral care as are the rest of us. Having the head of the church lower the boom without using lesser measures isn't very Christ-like.

3- The university falls under the jurisdiction of the bishop, as JohnPaul II stated here:

ยง 2. Each Bishop has a responsibility to promote the welfare of the Catholic Universities in his diocese and has the right and duty to watch over the preservation and strengthening of their Catholic character. If problems should arise conceming this Catholic character, the local Bishop is to take the initiatives necessary to resolve the matter, working with the competent university authorities in accordance with established procedures(52) and, if necessary, with the help of the Holy See.
http://www.usccb.org/pope/constitutions/81590.htm

Pope Benedict isn't abdicating responsibility. He's allowing his bishops to exercise their authority AND their pastoral care.

There, I hope I didn't lay any grenades for you or ken to fall on :) Peace and blessings on your journey, HisMan

Posted by: Fed Up at March 23, 2009 11:48 PM


Bro Ken:

Yes, I did see the DeNiro movie quite a long time ago and I don't remember it making an impact on me. To my fault, I really can't stand Sean Penn. He's so ignorant.

But, maybe I'll watch it again.

The guy on the cross down the waterfall was cool.

Good special effects, if I recall. Lot's of blood...my kind of movie.

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 11:55 PM


Bro Ken:

You mentioned that King in the Shrek movie, you know, that narccicistic freak.

Yeah, he's just the kind of guy you'd love to have a few rounds with in a dark alley.....the little panty waste.

Posted by: HisMan at March 23, 2009 11:57 PM


HisMan,
You didn't need to give me your schedule to convince me you don't have time to talk to a priest. To me it sounds like you are still searching very hard for something that you had all along but lost along the way. Maybe it's time to head back to the Catholic Church. If you aren't feeling anger, maybe it's hurt. Just don't wait too long for God to give you a sign before coming back. The sign you ultimately get may not be one to your liking.

As Fed Up said, blessings on your journey.

Posted by: Janet at March 24, 2009 12:04 AM


Excuse Me Fed Up:

Do you get this all out of the Bible? If so, chapter and verse please or are these doctrines of men? That's a rhetorical question because anyone who knows the Bible knows that the church is not to be set up this way.

Bro Ken......minefield ahead...danger...danger...

Seriously Fed...don't you realize what you are saying? I get a headache just trying to follow all that stuff. We were supposed to be freed from all that rule stuff and instead we jump right back into the fire? No, no, no. Jesus hated that BS. Otherwise He would have praised the Pharisees and not called them a brood of vipers.

You are not describng anything that looks like the New Testament Church. You are decribing the function of a coorporation with rules and bylaws, a heirarchy, a management chart, etc. I really thought I was reading a company profile as you were describing all that very hard to digest yada, yada, yada, yada.

But I guess you expose the underbelly of the Catholic Church which was also exposed in the priest pedophile scandal which is that the RCC is so big it really is unmanageable with a guy at the top that's just a man, a sinner like you and me, and, incapable of protecting God's reputation. I mean look at how much damage was done.

Hey, I understand you love the Roman Catholic Church. Let's leave it at that and just fight President Abortion.

You are not my enemy, what Obamanation does is my enemy.

I just really hope that this ND thing doesn't further hurt the RCC since they claim to represent God on earth and when they screw up, God's reputaion is hurt.

Posted by: HisMan at March 24, 2009 12:16 AM


Janet:

Actually, being transformed by the renewing of your mind is a lifelong process, glory to glory, precept upon precept, and...very biblical.

Remember, Paul says, "now we see in a mirror darkly" and we should never, ever stop seeking the face of God. So, what I was trying to show you by giving you my schedule is that I go to church just about every day of the week. Sometimes I have church with Catholics, Baptists, etc., and the high and the low, doesn't matter, kinda what like Jesus did. Sometimes I wear a suit, sometimes I shave, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I stink with BO. But, you obvioulsy didn't get it. So much for inference.

We should never, ever feel or think that we have arrived. That is a very, very dangerous position to be in.

I know this, I have Christ and He is mine and I consider the gain of all things to be rubbish compared to the high calling of knowing and loving my Savior. And mostly the love for Christ is shown not in the rituals I do or rules I keep but in how I love my brothers and sisters on a daily basis, spending time with them, helping them, loving them, rich or poor, influential or weak, doesn't matter.

Sometimes I joke with them, sometimes I cry with them, sometimes I rebuke them, whatever God calls me to do, that's what I do.

"Here I am God, send me"

Thank you.

Now, as I told Fed Up, let's not let this go any further. I am sure you both love Jesus as much or more than I do. So, let's not show the world that we cannot at last express our unity in Him.

Oh by the way, John 3:16 says this: "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son (not the RCC) that WHOSOEVER would believe in Him (not the RCC) would not perish but have eternal life." (parenthesis are mine).

If you disagree with that, take it up with God not me.

Posted by: HisMan at March 24, 2009 12:36 AM


Bro Ken:

The minefields tonight are all wearing pink and I've fallen and can't get up.

Man am I in trouble. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.......

And they call me angry ......
zing........shoosh....waaaaaaaaaaang.

Kaboom!!

Janet, Angel, Fed Up: Have some sweet, sweet rest in the Lord tonight.

Posted by: HisMan at March 24, 2009 12:57 AM


Well, HisMan, I've just read the last of your comments. From now on I'll ignore them and scroll past them. I don't know how to respond to your anger and your hate, so I'll refrain from addressing you after this.

I am not going to waste my time giving you scriptural references to bishops, presbyters, etc because your mind is clearly made up that the apostles and the New Testament authors got it wrong.

I leave you with this, Mr Sola Scriptura: "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." 2 Thess 2:15

The Catholic Church does her best to adhere to oral teaching and scripture. And you hate her for it. You accuse Catholics of worshiping Church instead of worshiping God. No wonder you're still searching HisMan.

Anyway, blessings on your journey and may you find what you're looking for.

Posted by: Fed Up at March 24, 2009 1:03 AM


I don't hate the church for trying to do it's best, I think the church is messed up because it quit trying. Magisterium is just another word for making it up as we go.

Posted by: Yo La Tengo at March 24, 2009 2:21 AM


very good posts, Fed-Up. You explain the Catholic Church well!

HisMan: Read "Rome Sweet Home" and "Surprised by the Truth".
It was scriptures that led these separated brethern back to the Catholic Church.

Peace, brother in Christ

Posted by: angel at March 24, 2009 6:59 AM


The Catholic Church needs to do some serious housekeeping in the US. If you ordain priests who think that honoring a leader who advocates killing babies is an okay thing, it is unsurprising that ordinary Catholics think it's okay to be in favor of gay marriage, abortion, and every kind of evil. If the bishop doesn't do his job--I don't know whether he will, but it does seem correct to give him a chance--the Pope should step in, and discipline Jenkins and everyone in the line between them who failed to uphold not only the church teachings but even natural law. Jenkins' actions show that he should be removed from a position of leadership unless he disinvites Obama and apologizes, possibly even if he does.

If the Catholic Church is serious about its doctrine, it does a poor job of showing it.

HisMan: Do try to remember about the language. I think my husband would find it offensive as well. With all of that, how do you find time for your family? Or is it your work--are you a missionary? Or does your wife work to support you? I am curious.

Posted by: YCW at March 24, 2009 7:55 AM


Hisman, you might also want to read Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians." It's a great book.

Posted by: Kristen at March 24, 2009 8:08 AM


This Indiana resident sent a short and sweet message to the ND President as follows:

"Based upon the recent decision to invite the pro-abortion extremist, Barack Obama, as commencement speaker, and confer an honorary degree:
Notre Dame is removed from consideration as an institution of higher learning for my three children.
I would not want them to obtain an incorrect impression of Catholicism by attending a university which claims Catholic affiliation, but disregards Catholic teaching in a vitally significant manner."

Posted by: KB at March 24, 2009 8:59 AM


Bishop D'Arcy will be making astatement this morning:

http://www.osvdailytake.com/2009/03/bishop-darcy-plans-notre-dame-statement.html

Let's pray it is what it should be.

Posted by: angel at March 24, 2009 9:30 AM


HisMan,

".. let's not show the world that we cannot at last express our unity in Him.

You are right about that.

I'm soooooo not angry at you. (When I'm angry or incredulous I use lots of "!!!!!!!" and "??????".) I apologize for my curt comment last night. Sometimes I'm lazy with my response and just want to get to the point and that may have come across as anger to you.

My pastor preached on John 3:16 just last Sunday night at mass. I agree, it says it all. (He has friends who are ministers of every denomination, rabbis, etc.. I think you would like him.) It's great to see you are so active in your "ministry". Please tell us about the pro athletes you meet on Thursdays from time to time. We can always use an uplifting story.

I have to mention one last thing before I go. Father John Corapi is someone you could relate to. He's a real man's man. His life has been one of extreme highs and extreme lows and after his conversion he became a priest. He's a brilliant speaker who travels around the world. The header on his website proclaims: "There is only one word... The Eternal Word.. His Name is Jesus, The Christ."

God bless you and your family.

Posted by: Janet at March 24, 2009 11:18 AM


HisMan,

A reading suggestion:
"150 Bible Verses Every Catholic Should Know" by Patrick Madrid
I've just started this, but I like it so far.
http://www.surprisedbytruth.com/shop/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=13&cat=Books

* * * *
Link to Fr. Corapi's web site:
http://www.fathercorapi.com/Personal-Testimony---Father-Corapis-Conversion-Story---105CD-P1C0.aspx

Posted by: Janet at March 24, 2009 11:30 AM


I found a video of Corapi telling his conversion story. Pretty amazing.

http://en.gloria.tv/?media=23129

Posted by: Janet at March 24, 2009 12:07 PM


"Bishop D'Arcy will be making a statement this morning:"

I can't wait!

Posted by: Janet at March 24, 2009 12:09 PM


You guys are awesome people of God and don't think I don't love you.

I watch Fr. Corapi on EWTN and he is very cool.

Hey Fed Up, peace.

Posted by: HisMan at March 24, 2009 12:36 PM


Love you too, HisMan. :)

Posted by: Janet at March 24, 2009 12:39 PM


Oh cool, I'm really glad you watch Fr Corapi, HisMan. I think a lot of non-Catholic hardcore Christians would really like him. He is so strong and unwavering when it comes to life issues, and is always very respectful when discussing Protestants. Neat-o. God love you.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at March 24, 2009 1:06 PM


Here's the bishop's statement if you guys haven't seen it.
http://www.diocesefwsb.org/COMMUNICATIONS/statements.htm

I feel for the guy. No matter what he did, one side or the other was going to criticize him. After reading the statement, I feel like he's given both sides ammunition to criticize him.


Peace to you, HisMan :)

Posted by: Fed Up at March 24, 2009 1:51 PM


I don't see the new statement at the diocese website yet, but it's at this link
http://www.osvdailytake.com/2009/03/bishop-darcys-statement-on-ndobama.html

Posted by: Janet at March 24, 2009 2:10 PM


re: HisMan at March 23, 2009 6:03 PM

How ironic that you would complain about another person's "narcissism". I suppose you're angry because he doesn't listen to you and you alone, oh Prophet of God.

Posted by: Yo la Tengo at March 24, 2009 6:10 PM