"real people in real wheelchairs will be sacrificed if universal health care prevails"

Yeh, you're right Jill. That's what universal health care leads to. Just look at Canada.... after a certain age they just kill you off. And if you are in a wheelchair it's even earlier.

I think what Jill means is that those with disabilities or the elderly who are in wheelchairs won't be given the health care they need because of the pro euthanasia mentality.

These right wing "cartoons" often make no sense whatsover (the "Octomom"?) WTF?, and are rarely clever or funny. Anyone who compares any US President to communist leaders is an idiot.

With the right wingers and Repubs, sour grapes and hatefulness at losing and having their lack of ideas rejected has expanded to border on treason, and the voters won't forget by 2010 or 2012 that the Repubs want America to fail.

Yes, I'm a Canadian, and I know an elderly Canadian whose critical bypass surgery was put off almost indefinitely. But consider the progressive Netherlands (Geert Wilders speaking to the Dutch Parliament on September 17, 2008):

There are far too few people with health care. Secretary of State Bussemaker [Socialist party] knows that. But meanwhile she is waving away all wrongdoing in our nursing homes and homes for the elderly. The 88-year old Mrs. Willemse has been sitting in a dilapidated wheelchair, the wheels tilted, a ramshackle wooden frame and a plate as backrest. She got bedsores sitting in it. And the very elderly gentleman Steller has been waiting more than two years for the care he needs. Mrs. Emons died not in her bed but in the in the cold storage of the morgue due to haste.

Incidents? Unfortunately they are not incidents. Already for a very long time they aren’t. In many of our nursing homes, poverty rules.

This Cabinet leaves our elderly, our disabled and seriously ill as hard as a stone in the lurch. Elderly people just have to wait and see whether they will be reanimated.

Under the present health care system, medical bills are THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF BANKRUPTCY. People lose their houses and everything they own every day thanks to the present, pathetic, profit-focused system.

And what of the people who are sacrificed NOW to the god of capitalist health insurance? Insurance companies deny claims every day because treatments are too expensive or too new or not covered, and people die because of it all the time. WHY is it OK when health insurance companies let sick people die just to save a few bucks for their CEOs and shareholders?

Countries with universal health care have healthier citizens and longer life expectancies. If you really cared about protecting life, you would be in favor of universal health care, because it's clearly superior to the system we have now.

Bystander: "With the right wingers and Repubs, sour grapes and hatefulness at losing and having their lack of ideas rejected has expanded to border on treason..."

What's this? Treason? Why, for eight years, all I heard was "Dissent is patriotic!" and "Question Authority!" and "Think for Yourself!" Now that there's been a change at the White House, the new call, evidently, is that anyone who dissents is spewing "sour grapes," "hatefulness," and "TREASON." Wheeeeeee! Bystander, did you happen to hurt yourself at all during your flip-flop? If so, best to seek medical attention now, before health care is overhauled. Also, I hope you're not older than sixty, or else the new high priests of "compassion" will be pushing to let you exercise your "right to die," whether you feel like it or not.

Posted by: Bystander at March 8, 2009 10:45 AM

"With the right wingers and Repubs, sour grapes and hatefulness at losing and having their lack of ideas rejected has expanded to border on

treason,..."

treason 1 : the betrayal of a trust : treachery

2 : the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance or to kill or personally injure the sovereign or the sovereign's family.
-----------------------------------------------------

Another glittering example of the selective outrage and ill logice of the left.

You won.

Get over it.

Stop paying attention to your helpless, hopeless loser critics and solve the problem, Einstein.

You control all the branches of the federal government and the major media outlets.

You have no excuses. Quit puttin on and start putting out.

"Shut up and play."

We are all watching the scoreboard to see what you can do.

yor bro ken

Jon:

Libs hate the facts....don't even bother.

oh thanks Liz for the clarification. That makes sense now. Right.... The elderly and disabled would be denied care just like they are now in Canada. Right......

bmmg39,
You're wrong. You haven't been hearing things about G.W. for the last eight years. He wasn't so hated when he first took office. It wasn't until he REALLY started to mess up that more and more people spoke out about hating him.

The right's talk about Obama has been the same since BEFORE HE GOT ELECTED. I even saw some idiot say that he has only "kept a couple promises"... when in reality, he's been in office not even two months!

Life expectancy in Canada: 80.34 years

Life expectancy in the US: 78.06 years

Patients in Canada's "socialist" health care system live an average of two years longer than patients in the fractured, profit-focused US system.

And you "pro-lifers" are in favor of the present system?? The system that robs two years of life from Americans? Really??

Asitis: "Yeh, you're right Jill. That's what universal health care leads to. Just look at Canada.... after a certain age they just kill you off. And if you are in a wheelchair it's even earlier. "

Thats what Kelly was arguing that America believes, and she was pro-choice. Her point was that unborn children are not under protection, just as the elderly or other indigents, because they are not financially viable. She believes that most Americans feel this way, do you?

Reality,

If insurance companies were non existent and people had to pay their own bills, hospital costs and medical care would be considerably cheaper.
If hospitals and doctors had to compete for patients and provide the best care at the best cost to stay in business, what do you want to bet health care costs would come down and fast.

Its because of 3rd party payers, such as insurance companies and the gov't that hospitals and doctors can demand the highest price, and get it. People know the insurance companies, which they view as a bottomless pit of money, are there to sue and do so, and to whom do you think the costs are passed on to?? It also helps to have an overabundance of moronic jurors.

There's also the problem of what happens when people think they're getting something for "free", i.e. someone else is paying for it.
Its abused, whether its insurance or gov't. I've seen people bring all 5 kids into the ER for head colds when they could have called a pharmacist at no cost. Oh, the ER visit was "free". You'd be surprised the people who think they are actually entitled to free care. Even when the hospital helps them set up payments they feel no obligation to pay.

Our city at one time provided "free" rescue squad service. No more. Wanna guess why?
People were calling the squads at all hours for little more than free taxi service. This quickly ceased when the city began charging.

Our city's plastic surgeons are busy. Somehow people who can't pay for pap smears can afford thousands for an overhaul. I have no problem with it. Its amazing how people can come up with cash when they are determined.
By the way our plastic surgeons are very competitive, they have to give the best product at the best cost if they want to work. This ain't Beverly Hills. There is no insurance coverage for any of this.

You also have people who take absolutely no responsiblity for their health. One of the most educated and intelligent women I know still can't see the connection between her near 400lbs and her diabetes and severe arthritis.
Our friends have all kinds of money for cigarettes, booze, and drugs, but you pay for their health care, which they get for "free".
As you might guess, they have some serious health issues but its not hard to see why.

Insurance companies and gov't take control of your care and decisions when they are in charge. Market based health care leaves it to the consumer.

If you think the insurance companies are a pain in the fanny, just wait until the gov't gets control.

Josephine: " even saw some idiot say that he has only "kept a couple promises"... when in reality, he's been in office not even two months!"

Exactly. Hes only been in office a few months and had already broken many of his promises. This is why Republicans are already upset. Hes screwing everything up ALREADY.

Posted by: reality at March 8, 2009 11:05 AM

1). "Under the present health care system, medical bills are THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF BANKRUPTCY."

2). "Countries with universal health care have healthier citizens and longer life expectancies. "

"And what of the people who are sacrificed NOW to the god of

'capitalist'

health insurance."

--------------------------------------------------

In a free society 'health care' is not an entitlement, nor even a right. It is a privelege.

Few, if any, people in this country die as a result of not being provided with health care. My sister, who is a physician, practices with a health group who's patients are primarily indigent people. No one is turned away for lack of money.

The down side is that every one who has the ability to provide for their own health care pays more because the 'cost' of providing for the indigent is passed on to those who posess the means to pay in the form of higher prices.

Not a perfect system by any means, but far superior to government run health care.

If you want a real life example just go to a VA hospital.

It seems that PBHO with the unwitting and willing help of his fellow liberals is determined to damage beyond repair the economic system that has provided more opportunity, a higher standard of living and a better quality of life than any other system in recorded history.

This 'capitalist', 'free market' system produces enough food not only for ourselves at the lowest prices the market will bear and still exports food to other nations at little or no cost to them, who's politics and economics do not afford them the freedom and the incentive to provide for themselves.

PBHO and his cohorts should be relegated to a sand box like Cuba where they can test their failed theories without endangering the proven system that provides for all of us.

capital (1): a stock of accumulated goods especially at a specified time and in contrast to income received during a specified period ; also : the value of these accumulated goods (2): accumulated goods devoted to the production of other goods (3): accumulated possessions calculated to bring in income b (1): net worth (2): stock

capitalism : an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market.

socialism 1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

yor bro ken

Mary, I can not wait for the government to take control, because it will save many, many lives AND lots of money.

The US spends more than 15% of GDP on health care, and gets life expectancies of 78.06 years.

Canada spends 10% of GDP on health care, and gets life expectancies of 80.34 years.

What do you have against saving money and lives?

kb,

Not a perfect system by any means, but far superior to government run health care.

Only if your definition of "superior" is: more costly and less effective.

Reality: "What do you have against saving money and lives? "

You cant seriously think it is that cut and dried can you? They have 2 years on us, and they have univseral health care, so obviously its from the healthcare? Maybe they would have an even HIGHER life expectancy without the healthcare. Have you ever heard the phrase corelation does not necessarily equal causation?

I mean seriously, what about our illegal immigrant level? What about our murder rates? What about our polution rates? What about the general race demographics? You cant blanketly credit their health care with their life expectancy. Thats absurd. You are an example of the average liberal who doesnt actually think the issues through but only reacts to what "seems" to be the case. Ridiculous.

By the way, American is not Canada. What Government run agency in America works properly? The DMV? Social Security office? Medicaid? The Post Office? The IRS? Those are just the agencies that Ive had personal experience with, and every single one of them is run at a high level of inefficiency.

Also consider this. It takes 8 years to become a doctor and 2-4 to become a nurse. These jobs are already in high demand as it is. What is going to happen when everyone has "free" healthcare? There are not currently unlimited resources in any sense. What is going to happen? Rationing. Not everyone will be able to get care for their every whim. The problem is, when this happens in other countries what do they do? They come here. What will we do when "here" is just like "there" and I cant get an X-ray for my neck problems or I am refused a life support system?

Oliver, who is Kelly? And what exactly do you mean here by "financially viable?" That the elderly can't survive on their own financially? Or that it's not practical to spend health care dollars on them?

kb,

I have two cars for sale:

One is an '87 Ford that doesn't run, with 200,000 miles on it, and I want $8000 for it.

The other is a working '05 Toyota with 50,000 miles on it, and I want $4000 for it.

According to you, car #1 would be the superior choice.

LOL

Oliver: You cant seriously think it is that cut and dried can you? They have 2 years on us, and they have univseral health care, so obviously its from the healthcare?

No, it's the munber of guns! (That will get some of you going!)

But seriousy... don't foregt Oliver, those are also Canadian years. What's the exchange rate now?

Kelly is a pro-choice poster who posted a few days ago.

She claimed that not all human lives are equal and that human indigents can at any time be abandoned by society. Her claim was that unless a human provides benefits to society financially, that human's life is null and void at the mercy of society.

I think she was just saying what a lot of pro-choicers think. It makes sense considering how many pro-choicers view other human indigents...

Asitis: "No, it's the munber of guns! (That will get some of you going!)"

Although I dont agree its simply the number, so much as it is the culture, you made my point perfectly. You cant simply claim the life expectancy increase follows directly and only from the health care system.

Reality, 11:49am

Dream on. Take a look at Medicare and Social Security if you want to know what happens when the gov't takes control.

Also, there's something called personal responsiblity for one's own health which too many people have never heard of. I didn't mention the situation of a doctor who donated his services to provide prenatal care to low income women in a local community. Not one of the women came in, even though they were at risk with smoking, drinking, drug abuse, and obesity.
Face it Reality, there are people who take NO responsibility who you end up paying for. Just wait until the gov't takes over. People will only see less need to do so. I've seen enough of this over the years.

In an effort to curb costs in our community small emergency care centers have been set up and minor treatment centers, staffed by NPs are in various shopping centers. These compete and bring down costs, as well as provide care at a reasonable cost and great convenience for consumers. Market forces! The hospitals have to compete. Market forces!

BTW REality, prior to medicare, medicaid, and insurance, the indigent and elderly were cared for. A large city hospital in my hometown that cared mostly for the indigent, drug and alcohol abusers, and elderly was also a well respected trauma center, specializing in gunshot and stab wounds.

Saving lives can be done without the gov't. and no I have nothing against saving lives.

Reality: "According to you, car #1 would be the superior choice. "

According to you, if two completely different cars with unknown mileage had different rates of failure, you could unquestioningly attribute those rates to the kind of oil used, without consideration of the other imoportant factors. I think the "LOL" should be firmly aimed at you my friend.

Our city's plastic surgeons are busy. Somehow people who can't pay for pap smears can afford thousands for an overhaul.

I'm fairly confident that most of the people who cannot afford pap smears are not the ones getting elective plastic surgery.

Why dont we make this simple? What other government run agency are you proud of? That is better than a private sector alternative?

So Oliver @12:03, you are arguing that it is better to have a system where you can have every health whim addressed ASAP while others go without, then to have a system where everyone gets care, but not as quickly?

Capitalism is instinctive or intutitive. It does not have to be inculcated, indoctrinated or legislated.

Even a member of a tribe in the Amazon forest applies capitalist principle in every day life.

He takes a raw product, a tree limb for example.

HE uses other tools which he has bartered for or made with his own hands and makes a bow and/or an arrow and uses that new tool to provide food for his family or he trades that tool to another member of his tribe for some other good or service of equal value.

This is capitalism.

If the aboriginal operated under 'socaialism' he would make arrrows, or bows or spears, or baskets and turn them into the elders and the elders would redistribute them to the other members of the tribe. In turn the tribe, under the beneficent direction of the elders would see to it that the arrow maker had food, clothing, shelter, education and health care and defense against his enemies. And everyone would do what they do voluntarily out of altruistic motives for the collective good of the tribe.

There would be no want, no hunger, no disease, no war, no struggle, no boundaries, no religion.

'Imagine' if you can.

There would be no want and every one would live happily ever after.

This is such a wonderful idea that you would think you would see it in practise somewhere in the Amazon rain forest or Africa or India or New Guinea.

Keep looking it has to be there somewhere. You will find the transitional forms and the missing links nearby.

yor bro ken

ps: It never has nor never will work because women/men are 'greedy'. Enough is never enough, we always want more. Socialism will not work because of 'greed'. Capitalism, when constrained and restrained by 'morality', works because the system harnesses the 'greed' in a way that benefits the most people the best way possible.

yor bro ken

Her point was that unborn children are not under protection, just as the elderly or other indigents, because they are not financially viable. She believes that most Americans feel this way, do you?

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 11:43 AM

She claimed that not all human lives are equal and that human indigents can at any time be abandoned by society. Her claim was that unless a human provides benefits to society financially, that human's life is null and void at the mercy of society.

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 12:09 PM

What????? That if someone doesn't somehow contribute financially to society, that we have the the right to kill them? No, I don't agree with this at all Oliver. And I don't think this is "what a lot of pro-choicers think."

Posted by: reality at March 8, 2009 12:06 PM

kb,

I have two cars for sale:

One is an '87 Ford that doesn't run, with 200,000 miles on it, and I want $8000 for it.

The other is a working '05 Toyota with 50,000 miles on it, and I want $4000 for it.

According to you, car #1 would be the superior choice.

LOL

----------------------------------------------------------

The fair market value of the car is not determined by what you are asking for it, but by what I am willing to pay.

I will not pay more than I can afford.

Your solution is to steal money from some one else to purchase a car for me that I do not want at any price.

yor bro ken

Alexandra 11:13PM

I have heard people complain about paying for pap smears, etc. but they have no complaints about paying for cosmetic surgery.

What I also have an issue with Alexandra is people who have money to abuse their bodies with drugs, cigarettes, and booze but holler if they pay a doctor bill.

Prior to 3rd party payers doctors provided their services at low or no cost. There were charity hospitals. Doctors and hospitals had to be competitive. They had to consider what the local community could afford to pay. Now things are so blasted complicated by paperwork and bureaucracy, not to mention lawsuits.

Asitis: "So Oliver @12:03, you are arguing that it is better to have a system where you can have every health whim addressed ASAP while others go without, then to have a system where everyone gets care, but not as quickly?"

I am arguing that it is better to have a system in which my hard work allows me to take care of my health regardless of the "pecking" order at the hospital or the government guidelines on what exactly is a "necessary" operation. I dont want a system that covers Americans who make 50,000 dollars a year at the expense of my hard earned health coverage. We already cover the poor. We do need a program to help cover the people who CANT qualify for insurance, but the people who cant "afford" health insurance because they have 3 cell phones, an unaffordable car payment, an unaffordable house payment, cable, internet, etc dont deserve healthcare at my expense.

Posted by: reality at March 8, 2009 12:06 PM

--------------------------------------------------

I actually own an 87 chevy with 130,000 miles.

I purchased it 20 years and 70,000 miles ago for $10,000 and paid cash for it.

If your are gullible enough to pay me $8,000.00 for it, lets do the deal. It works for me.

yor bro ken

I would like to have a new or newer vehicle, but I continue to drive

Asitis: "No, I don't agree with this at all Oliver. And I don't think this is "what a lot of pro-choicers think.""

Its what Kelly claimed anyways. She said most Americans think this way actually. If you do not, why do preborns not have rights? Why is it okay to starve an indigent similar to Terry?

Mary, I would agree with you that there are people who make some really bad choices. But I also hear about people in this country who get sick and are denied coverage. Can you imagine?

People who have health plans through their employer are fine. But what if they were to lose their job. Through no fault of their own? (How many hundreds of thousands saw this happen to them this month alone?). And what if you couldn't afford COBRA? Or it ran out before you got a new job? What if you were denied health coverage for you and your family because of a pre-existing condition? Just imagine Mary. This is a very real concern for people. People just like you and me. We hear about these cases. People should not have to worry about this when they or their children are sick.

Asitis: "No, I don't agree with this at all Oliver. And I don't think this is "what a lot of pro-choicers think.""

Its what Kelly claimed anyways. She said most Americans think this way actually. If you do not, why do preborns not have rights? Why is it okay to starve an indigent similar to Terry?

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 12:33 PM

Well, I don't know who Kelly is, but I woulnd't call her/him an authority on what "most americans think" if that's what she/he said. Pro-choice believe that preborns do not have the same rights, but it is not because of whhat you refer to as "financial vialbilty".

And as for "Terry" I assume you are referring to Terry Schiavo. I don't think most Americans feel it's okay to starve an idigent if they have not clearly asked for this to happen.

The law of intended consequences will insinuate its self into your 'fantasy':

In Hawaii the state instituted a program to provide health care insurance for dependent children who were not covered.

Responsible parents who had been providing health insurance for their children, did the math, and dropped their private insurance plans and signed up for the state subsidized insurance.

The State of Hawaii had to cancel the program because the costs increased exponentially.

Human nature is an affliction common to all humans.

yor bro ken

Hello Asitis,

I hear you.
That's my whole point. 3rd party paying has led to this mess you describe. I can remember the time when this would not have been a concern.
Like any business, the health care system would have to adjust to the needs of the community and their ability to pay. 3rd party involvement, be it insurance or gov't made that unnecessary and resulted in skyrocketing costs and in my opinion, gross abuses and irresponsiblity.

To me, gov't takeover is just exacerbating the existing problem, which is bad enough. I'm seeing market forces working now to bring down costs and want to see them continue.

My favorite example is the one I gave concerning the free rescue squad service. When people thought they were getting something for nothing the abuse and irresponsiblity was incredible. I had to wonder if people in this community even had a sense of embarassment. When they knew they would get a bill for calling the squad, they figured a taxi was cheaper!

Hi Mary! I didn't see a lot of abuse in Canada myself. In fact, what I see here is people with good coverage taking there kids to the doctor for every little thing. And more frequent use of specialists (dermatologists, pedeatricians, ob/gyn) when a GP might do.

Since living here and being exposed to both systems I think the solution lies somewhere between the two. Our family happens to have a great plan here which affords us superior care to what we had in Canada, but not everyone is in that position. It saddens me to hear some of the stories. And they only increase in these economic times.

I am arguing that it is better to have a system in which my hard work allows me to take care of my health regardless of the "pecking" order at the hospital or the government guidelines on what exactly is a "necessary" operation. I dont want a system that covers Americans who make 50,000 dollars a year at the expense of my hard earned health coverage. We already cover the poor. We do need a program to help cover the people who CANT qualify for insurance, but the people who cant "afford" health insurance because they have 3 cell phones, an unaffordable car payment, an unaffordable house payment, cable, internet, etc dont deserve healthcare at my expense.

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 12:30 PM

Well, good to hear that you agree that we need to fix this problem of people being denied coverage. And we do need to have to have affordable plans for people who require private coverage.

Oliver, at our family's salary we were paying far more than our share for health care in Canada and had to wait to get appointments and didn't have the same level of service that we have here. But honestly, from what I see here sometimes, I can't say for certain which system is better, even though we personally have it better here. Call me crazy for caring.

Posted by: reality at March 8, 2009 12:06 PM

--------------------------------------------------

I actually own an 87 chevy with 130,000 miles.

I purchased it 20 years and 70,000 miles ago for $10,000 and paid cash for it.

If your are gullible enough to pay me $8,000.00 for it, lets do the deal. It works for me.

yor bro ken

I would like to have a new or newer vehicle, but I continue to drive what I can afford.

Posted by: kbhvac at March 8, 2009 12:32 PM

--------------------------------------------------------

It is called living within ones means, spending 'less' than what you earn.

Everytime I spend more than I earn, something bad results. Everytime. No exception. Everytime.

Haste makes waste. In PBHO and the liberal democrat case the waste is on a scale of biblical proportions.

A million, million equals one trillion.

If Congress had just loaned that money at no interest to one million people who were already millionaires the vast majority would have had the demonstrated skill to increase the trillion to one and one half trillion dollars.

The resulting tax revenues from that increase in the economy would have more than satisfied the budget deficit and a good part of the national debt.

There is another novel concept:rewarding, not punishing success.

yor bro ken

Asitis, it isn't that we don't care, it's that we want to make sure that people have coverage, without sacrificing quality of coverage.

For example, we don't want the government saying you CAN NOT have drug B, even if you're willing to pay, because we say you HAVE to have drug A.

I have no problem with having services for people who can not get insurance through other means, but it just frightens me that they will not be getting the coverage they need.

The problem is that the people who are the most vulnerable under a free market system are also the most vulnerable under a government rationing system.

If you can't get coverage because of pre-existing conditions, there's a good chance the government might not cover your needs either.

I think we need to find a solution for our healthcare problems, but I just don't think universal healthcare will be the best. It worries me that the people who are the sickest and costliest will be sacrificed for the average guy.

To me, it's more of an injustice for these people to be denied health care options so that someone who COULD afford healthcare can get on the government program.

Should euthanasia be funded by public funds(taxpayer/society) if the person who suffers in pain can't afford his own mercy killing?

Josephine: "You're wrong. You haven't been hearing things about G.W. for the last eight years. He wasn't so hated when he first took office. It wasn't until he REALLY started to mess up that more and more people spoke out about hating him."

Bush was called a "thief" by people who, evidently, don't understand our electoral process. They didn't wait for him to "mess up," which, of course, he never did, though I would expect you to make such a comment.

asitis: "And as for 'Terry' I assume you are referring to Terry Schiavo. I don't think most Americans feel it's okay to starve an idigent if they have not clearly asked for this to happen."

Just as Terri Schiavo never asked for such a thing, yes.

Bush never messed up.

...............I can't even believe you're a real human. Maybe a ten year old.. maybe...

Poor Josephine,

Obama will cap the salary of Md's at 200k/yr. or less, to free up more resources for the customer.

And rightfully soo.

BTW, what is the going rate per hour for a md these days ?

If you can't get coverage because of pre-existing conditions, there's a good chance the government might not cover your needs either.

Posted by: Lauren at March 8, 2009 1:43 PM

Lauren, I just read about a newborn that was denied coverage because he had jaundice at birth.Totally cleared up in a couple days and baby perfectly healthy. Notice from insurance took the couple completely by surprise.

That's a broken system

Yllas, you're wrong, first of all. No pay cap. Luckily for me-- I won't work in a hospital, and no one is going to cap the pay of someone who works in their own business.

The going rate for a doctor/hr depends on a LOT of things these days. I'll use my dad. He owns a practice, so the pay there is screwy, but he also works at the hospital. When he plans to go there, he makes roughly $200/hr... when they call him in, he makes double time.

Reality:

What's the population of Canada?

What's the population of the US?

And how do illegal aliens, and I gurantee you, there are almost no illegal aliens in Canada, skew the numbers?

Think and use facts not the unReality that you abide in.

"Bush never messed up................I can't even believe you're a real human. Maybe a ten year old.. maybe..."

ALL people mess up once in a while. Your comment, however, was along the lines of "Bush REALLY messed up our whole country/world." You weren't merely saying he's fallible; you were engaging in the usual lefty hyperbole.

Poor Josephine,

Obama will cap the salary of Md's at 200k/yr. or less, to free up more resources for the customer.

And rightfully soo.

Posted by: yllas at March 8, 2009 1:58 PM

Ya think yllas? Doubt it. That's not even the case in Canada.

Yllas, you're wrong, first of all. No pay cap. Luckily for me-- I won't work in a hospital, and no one is going to cap the pay of someone who works in their own business.

The going rate for a doctor/hr depends on a LOT of things these days. I'll use my dad. He owns a practice, so the pay there is screwy, but he also works at the hospital. When he plans to go there, he makes roughly $200/hr... when they call him in, he makes double time.

Posted by: Josephine at March 8, 2009 2:09 PM

Anything over $250k should be taxed at above 50% and more. And Obama agrees.

Hm, taxes and pay caps are completely different. And Obama isn't raising any taxes-- he's letting previous Bush tax cuts expire.

yllas:Anything over $250k should be taxed at above 50% and more.

Do you mean just for doctors? (We know you hate them so). Or do you think for anyone's income over $250k?

yllas:And Obama agrees.

Oh does he?

Posted by: yllas at March 8, 2009 4:01 PM

If universal health care is so great I wonder why my doctor and her husband (also a doctor) and a multitude of other doctors are leaving other countries to come here to practice?

My doctor left Canada (she's of Indian descent) to come here. And even though it meant leaving surgury to become a GP she said she wouldn't go back to Canada for anything.

Why don't you ask her why they left? Was it that she making more money was important to her and she felt she could that in the US? Was it that she felt she could somehow provide better care here (well for those that have good insurance anyway)? Was there something about the working conditions or environment that she did not like? She could probably answer your question better than we can Kristen.

As I have said several time already,I personally don't think Canada's system it perfect. It needs some fixing, just like the US system does.

"If universal health care is so great I wonder why my doctor and her husband (also a doctor) and a multitude of other doctors are leaving other countries to come here to practice? "

Easy: those doctors don't make enough money. Doctors here can charge OUTRAGEOUS sums, and it's easy. Your doctor sounds like a super lady... =\

Hi Josephine. Yeh, "enough money" is a relative term. Doctors in Canada are well-paid (and so they should be) just like they are here!

Kristen: My doctor left Canada (she's of Indian descent) to come here.

Are you suggesting the fact that she is of Indian descent has anything to do with it? Do you mean East Indian or Aboriginal Indian?

Are you suggesting the fact that she is of Indian descent has anything to do with it? Do you mean East Indian or Aboriginal Indian?

Posted by: asitis at March 8, 2009 7:40 PM

WTF? I mentioned it because she is originally FROM India, moved to Canada to practice medicine and then moved here because Canada was such a mess. I DID ask her why she moved and that's what she told me. I was asking a rhetorical question. Get it?

My kids’ pediatrician is Indian too. I actually like Indian doctors BETTER because they seem to get into medicine because they want to help people whereas others I have met seem to think it's just a get rich career.

Easy: those doctors don't make enough money. Doctors here can charge OUTRAGEOUS sums, and it's easy. Your doctor sounds like a super lady... =\

Posted by: Josephine at March 8, 2009 7:04 PM

Yep, I'm SURE she gets a TON more as a GP than a surgeon. She decided to go into GP rather than complete years of residency again when she had 2 young children. She IS a super lady and YOU my dear, are anything but.

Asitis, I would respect your opinion more if you brought some actual logical debate to the table. However, I have yet to see it. You're posts are like listening to small children argue over tinker toys, all emotion, no logic. Why are you here? Is there no one at home you can harrass? Small puppy to kick? No one?

Kristen, thanks for the clarification on the Indian comment. It just seemed so.... WTF???? The way it was written. You didn't say she was from india. You said she was of Indian descent... which could mean anything. Or more to the point, nothing.

Did she say what she meant by "such a mess". Because I know a lot of doctors in Canada and they would disagree.

No logic, Glynn? Is that your favorite word too? Please tell me what I have said in this discussion that is illogical. And you know, if you don't like what I have to add, you are free to not read it. Just a suggestion. Have a lovely evening!

Glynn: "Asitis, I would respect your opinion more if you brought some actual logical debate to the table. However, I have yet to see it. You're posts are like listening to small children argue over tinker toys, all emotion, no logic. Why are you here? Is there no one at home you can harrass? Small puppy to kick? No one?"

You have my sword...*bows*

Kristen: " She IS a super lady and YOU my dear, are anything but."

But you forget, Josephine is allowed to insults doctors, nurses, general Americans who arent supportive enough of troops, because if she hasnt mentioned it yet, shes an LVN and her dad is a doctor and shes a medic in the army and she knows what shes saying.

Asitis: "No logic, Glynn? Is that your favorite word too?"

I was actually wondering if I had gone schizophrenic and posted under an alter-ego.

By the way, do you believe me yet? Glynn apparently sees it in you as well. I wonder if its just some sort of cosmic coincidence?

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 8:49 PM

Of course, how could I forget! She's all knowing, all seeing. ;)

Glynn, you seem to have hit the nail on the head!

By the way, do you believe me yet? Glynn apparently sees it in you as well. I wonder if its just some sort of cosmic coincidence?

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 8:52 PM

No... just someone else that likes to throw the word illogic around whether it applies or not. Wonder if she also has "paper tiger" and oh what's that other one... "tangential mumbo-jumbo" as well.

You havea lovely night too sweet Oliver!

Kristen, no I guess I'm not ALL knowing, because I can't say why your doctor thinks Canada is such a mess. Did she say exactly?

Asitis: "No... just someone else that likes to throw the word illogic around whether it applies or not."

So you really just think its a coincidence? A little random for my tastes, but I suppose its possible.

Of course, I never argued that SoMG didnt use logic and he was my greatest "enemy" on this site. You still really think I call you out on your flawed reasoning because I just dont like you?

Asitis: "Wonder if she also has "paper tiger" and oh what's that other one... "tangential mumbo-jumbo" as well."

What other words should I use instead of tangential or paper tiger? I mean seriously. Do I have to not use a full vocabulary around you or else draw personal attacks? I already limit my word choice with you as it is. I guess I falsly assumed that "tangential" was a normal enough of a word.

Asitis: "Kristen, no I guess I'm not ALL knowing, because I can't say why your doctor thinks Canada is such a mess. Did she say exactly?"

This is why nobody respects you. Kristen was talking about Josephine. Look at the post she quoted. Sheesh.

Yeh, you're right Jill. That's what universal health care leads to. Just look at Canada.... after a certain age they just kill you off. And if you are in a wheelchair it's even earlier.

Yes, they do. I can rattle off names of countless Canadians that the system has delayed or denied care to because of a disability. Hell- just look at how they embraced Robert Latimer when he murdered his disabled daughter.

I know Canada is a mess because I study their medical system. I'll be leaving for Vancouver in 6 days for this reason. In fact, whenever my physical presence isn't required in Texas for meetings/classes, I'm in Canada studying the positive correlation between universal healthcare and involuntary euthanasia.

Delays and denials are made on a bigotted "quality of life" basis- and those in wheelchairs are deemed to have a lower quality of life and are systematically denied treatment. Britain is worse. Google "Leslie Burke UK" and read all about it.

Oliver: So you really just think its a coincidence? A little random for my tastes, but I suppose its possible.

No, no... it's just a word that seems to get thrown around a lot here. Even when it is.... well, random. Yes.

Oliver: What other words should I use instead of tangential or paper tiger? I mean seriously. Do I have to not use a full vocabulary around you or else draw personal attacks?

Oh no, please feel free to use a full vocabulary. You just seem to love these phrases in particular. Some new one would be a nice change. Or not. Suit yourself babe.

This is why nobody respects you.
Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 9:17 PM

Nobody Oliver? You wish!

Asitis, thinly veiled sarcasm is such a poor debating skill. Most of us learned that in high school. There I go again with the school equation. You might be interested to know that Pierre Lemieux, an economist living in Montreal writes:

First of all, socialized medicine, although of poor quality, is very expensive. Public health expenditures consume close to 7 per cent of the Canadian gross domestic product, and account for much of the difference between the levels of public expenditure in Canada (47 per cent of gross domestic product) and in the U.S. (37 per cent of gross domestic product). So if you do not want a large public sector, do not nationalize health.

A second lesson is the danger of political compromise. One social policy tends to lead to another. Take, for example, the introduction of hospital insurance in Canada. It encouraged doctors to send their patients to hospitals because it was cheaper to be treated there. The political solution was to nationalize the rest of the industry. Distortions from one government intervention often lead to more intervention.

A third lesson deals with the impact of egalitarianism. Socialized medicine is both a consequence and a great contributor to the idea that economic conditions should be equalized by coercion. If proponents of public health insurance are not challenged on this ground, they will win this war and many others. Showing that human inequality is both unavoidable and, within the context of equal formal rights, desirable, is a long-run project.

The other thing to realize is that free public medicine isn't really free. What the consumer doesn't pay, the taxpayer does, and with a vengeance. Public health expenditures in Quebec amount to 29 per cent of the provincial government budget. One-fifth of the revenues come from a wage tax of 3.22 per cent charged to employers and the rest comes from general taxes at the provincial and federal levels. It costs $1,200 per year in taxes for each Quebec citizen to have access to the public health system. This means that the average two-child family pays close to $5,000 per year in public health insurance. This is much more expensive than the most comprehensive private health insurance plan.

Our Canadian neighbors know that socialized medicine does not work, which is why they buy supplemental insurance so they can come to the US for treatment. HBO had a special on this some time ago about one Canadian man's plight with a brain tumor. He lived in Canada and had to wait over 6 months to be seen by a physician. He finally went to New York and was seen and operated right away, thus saving his life.

Also, asitis, comparing Canada's experience with socialized medicine with what the United States would experience is hardly accurate if by no other measure than our population is huge compared to that of Canada's, thus a much bigger nightmare to deal with.

The Supreme Court recently issued an opinion saying, in effect, that Canada's vaunted public health-care system produces intolerable inequality.

And then there's Cuba.

This is nothing but infuriating. I'll say it: I'm a moderate and I don't agree fully with either the conservative or the liberal positions, but my goodness asitis, reality, and anyone else who comes onto these messaging boards to spread fighting: Grow. Up.

Do you have any idea how irritating it was to hear for eight years about how Bush must have been a fascist and cheated on the election and whatnot? You were the same people saying this. Now when people say it about a liberal it's wrong? What kind of idiots are you? I mean, I hate calling people stupid, especially when they're liberal because I have a lot of respect for liberals (and conservatives). You prance about like, "Oh, I come onto conservative messaging boards because I'm a good person who likes to get both sides of the argument." Yet you don't even bother listening, you just whine and throw temper tantrums.

Do you have any idea how little respect I have for ignorant people who refuse to tolerate anyone else's opinions? Certainly, I don't agree with what everyone says here, but it's their opinion. Why is that you talk of coexistence and tolerating everyone until they are different from you?

Good grief, it's as though you are the biggest hypocrites on the face of the flipping earth right now.

Either try to tolerant difference of opinion or get a life and be big boys and girls.

Goodness, I try my absolute hardest to be tolerant but when you start to act like idiots then you ought not to wonder why people become so irate with you.

Kristen,
"If universal health care is so great I wonder why my doctor and her husband (also a doctor) and a multitude of other doctors are leaving other countries to come here to practice?"

isn't a rheotircal question...

And, actually, a lot of general practicioners make more than a lot of surgeons. A lot of surgeons make more than general practicioners. So, you're little sarcastic comment really didn't work out- the medical pay scale goes based on a LOT of things. Experience, years in the field, where you practice... I mean, c'mon. By the way, as for "years of residency"... it only takes about a year longer (if you're a good worker) to become a surgeon if you had known that you were going to be a surgeon. You work on your specialty as an intern. If she were a surgeon in Canada, sure, maybe it'd take her a YEAR... big deal.

So, you said your question was rhetorical (which doesn't make sense, as you can see from where I posted it..) and it isn't... (it is sarcastic, which maybe is what you meant?) why DID she
leave and come here?

Oliver, what's an LVN? I've never heard of it. By the way, it's so nice of you to say those great things about me. Have fun grading tests of students that are going to grow up and have great careers!! :)

"This means that the average two-child family pays close to $5,000 per year in public health insurance. This is much more expensive than the most comprehensive private health insurance plan".

Our health plan for our family of 4 costs $1400 per month. That's a whole lot more than $5000 per year.

I'm not sure where this guys is getting his "most expensive comprehensive health insureance" figures from!

"Our Canadian neighbors know that socialized medicine does not work, which is why they buy supplemental insurance so they can come to the US for treatment."

They do this? In large numbers? I knew no one that bought supplemental insurance insurance and went to the US for treatment. Really?

"The Supreme Court recently issued an opinion saying, in effect, that Canada's vaunted public health-care system produces intolerable inequality".

Intolerable inequality? Compared to what? Surely not the situation in the US????

Asitis, he is an economist in Montreal. Seems he might have some information about the subject, but why question his figures. Why not rebut with your own information.

Asitis, I respect you. You seem like one of the few that have above a double digit IQ! :)

Vannah, it's not a "conservative message board". It's a "pro-life blog" which has nothing to do with being a liberal or a conservative.

Joesphine: "Oliver, what's an LVN? I've never heard of it."

Real classy pointing out a typo Josephine! Did you learn that in all your years of experience?

Joesphine: "By the way, it's so nice of you to say those great things about me. Have fun grading tests of students that are going to grow up and have great careers!! :)"

Im not sure I get the jist of this comment. I dont grade my student's tests, and besides what is wrong with helping people achieve their careers anyways? I think I missed the insult here.

"Why not rebut with your own information.
Posted by: Glynn at March 8, 2009 9:45 PM

I'm fairly certain she did when she told you about her own personal health care plan..

Asitis, he is an economist in Montreal. Seems he might have some information about the subject, but why question his figures. Why not rebut with your own information.

Posted by: Glynn at March 8, 2009 9:45 PM

Ummm...... I did just that Glynn. Read my comment again: The plan for our family of four costs $1400 per month. That's a lot more than the $5000 per year that he cited.

What part of that don't you understand?

Am I to assume then, asitis, that you know every single living soul in Canada? Also, again, two posts with no figures of your own. I would be interested to know what research you have done on socialized medicine. Socialized medicine is not a success in Britain and it is an abject failure in Cuba. However chilling this debate may seem, it is the natural and expected outcome of socialized medicine. The State can only provide a limited amount of resources and the pie must be divided somehow. In the process some people will be inevitably denied the care they need to live. The question is who. The most defenseless are an easy target. This includes the very old and the very young. Who gets to choose?

Josephine: "Oliver, what's an LVN? I've never heard of it."

Actually a quick google of LVN helped with this. LVN is what LPNs are known as in Texas apparently.

Josephine, pardon me but I was speaking to asitis, and I am not intersted in her own personal story, however compelling it might be. I am interesed in why she thinks socialized medicine is such a resounding success.

Glynn: "Also, again, two posts with no figures of your own."

She doesnt post figures of her own. She kept claiming that Reardon was flawed in his research and never once produced any information to support this. Reardon may indeed by flawed for all I care, but the point was that she believes what her "side" foists upon her without any individual investigation. Good luck with this one!

Oh Glynn, and in case you don't like my personal data , here's something else:

Millman Medical Index says the average cost for health coverage for family of four in 2008 was $15,609

"Ummm...... I did just that Glynn. Read my comment again: The plan for our family of four costs $1400 per month. That's a lot more than the $5000 per year that he cited.

What part of that don't you understand?"

Wow, more sarcasm. Well you are very good at THAT. However, I am asking you to look outside the world of asitis, your little box, and the nation as a whole. Obviously an economist from Montreal doesn't agree with you.

No Glynn, I don't know EVERY person in Canada. That's funny you ask though, because I think it's a common mistake American's make. "Oh, you're from St, John's! Do you know Mabel and Jamie?".

But he made a comment that Canadians know socialized medicine doesn't work and they buy insurance and go to the states. I was simply say I never met ANYONE who did such a thing. I never heard of such a thing! Maybe it's just in Montreal. You know.... those Quebequois....

"Glynn: "Also, again, two posts with no figures of your own."

She doesnt post figures of her own. She kept claiming that Reardon was flawed in his research and never once produced any information to support this. Reardon may indeed by flawed for all I care, but the point was that she believes what her "side" foists upon her without any individual investigation. Good luck with this one!"

Thanks, Oliver. I am beating a dead horse here, obviously. You have a great night. Keep up the good fight.

Asitis: "Millman Medical Index says the average cost for health coverage for family of four in 2008 was $15,609"

How much of that was the responsibility of the family itself and how much was the responsibility of their employers?

Wow, more sarcasm. Well you are very good at THAT. However, I am asking you to look outside the world of asitis, your little box, and the nation as a whole. Obviously an economist from Montreal doesn't agree with you.

Posted by: Glynn at March 8, 2009 9:54 PM

Oh snap Glynn! Go back and read my comment right above yours for that. Beat you to it.

Not that it was even necesssary.... Lemieux claimed:
"This means that the average two-child family pays close to $5,000 per year in public health insurance. This is much more expensive than the most comprehensive private health insurance plan".

I was able to easily refute that with our family's plan alone.

Got anything else?

Glynn, pardon me but you're speaking on a public board. You asked for figures for rebuttle-- she gave them to you. Now they're not good enough for you? You're going off of ONE economist from Montreal. Maybe it's you that needs to do a bit more research. You can't learn everything from ONE person.

Asitis: "I was able to easily refute that with our family's plan alone. "

Maybe you refute his point of the "most" expensive private plan, but your plan is outraqeous to be fair. The point still stands that the "free" healthcare for most Canadians is more expensive than MY family plan and is higher than the average expenditure for American families in 2006, according to your same source. I think you may have mistakenly included what those families' employers paid as well. Your numbers seem skewed.

How much of that was the responsibility of the family itself and how much was the responsibility of their employers?

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 9:59 PM

It doesn't matter Oliver. We are talking about the cost of providing health care for a family of four in Canada vs. the US.

Josephine: "You asked for figures for rebuttle-- she gave them to you."

Im actually impressed, even if her numbers are skewed. She refused to post ANY support for her Reardon crusade.

Seriously-

Canadians: Anyone know where to get some good poutine in Vancouver?

Asitis: "It doesn't matter Oliver. We are talking about the cost of providing health care for a family of four in Canada vs. the US."

No we are not. Let me quote the article.

"It costs $1,200 per year in taxes for each Quebec citizen to have access to the public health system. This means that the average two-child family pays close to $5,000 per year in public health insurance."

Read before posting please. Notice the word "pays."

Care to take back your statement?

By the way, consider your apparent confusion, do you actually PAY out of pocket 1400 a month, or is part of that covered by your employer?

Do you guys have anything better to do with your time? If you care passionately about your subject, then I respect your opinions. But why do you go around decrying others as though you are gods? If you care about what you represent, then go campaign for it, but you yourselves by your conducts make a lousy argument. I still think that universalized healthcare, from what I know of it, is a good idea, but if I were new (well, more than I am) to the subject then you might discourage me. Please stop fighting.

P.S. You are right; being pro-life has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative, but this is a blog run by a conservative with conservative political beliefs. If you are interested in liberal pro-life politics, look up blogs like ProWomanProLife or look up websites such as Democrats for Life. They're all very lovely. I personally find lots of liberal blogs, though maybe that could be because I look for them since I'm a fairly moderate person myself. You may be liberal so you can look for liberal blogs, though if you look just so that you can form a gang and attack other readers, then just leave them alone.

Maybe you refute his point of the "most" expensive private plan, but your plan is outraqeous to be fair. The point still stands that the "free" healthcare for most Canadians is more expensive than MY family plan and is higher than the average expenditure for American families in 2006, according to your same source. I think you may have mistakenly included what those families' employers paid as well. Your numbers seem skewed.

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 10:06 PM

Oliver go back and rethink everything you wrote there bud:

My plan is outrageous? Sure it's higher at $1400/month than the average of $15,600/year but I'd hardly call that outrageous.

The Canadian cost is HIGHER than this? In my word $5000 is less than $15,600.

I have not "mistakenly" included the employers' contributions. They are supposed to be included. We are looking the cost of providing the health care. Not the total cost, regardless of how it gets paid.

Now, when you say your family's care cost's less than $5000/year are you forgetting what your employer kicks in? What does it REALLY cost? What if you had to cover their share as well?

Canadians: Anyone know where to get some good poutine in Vancouver?

Posted by: Jacqueline at March 8, 2009 10:09 PM

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Well, if you must..... Head east out of Vancouver. Keep driving until you hit Quebec.

Asitis: "I have not "mistakenly" included the employers' contributions. They are supposed to be included. We are looking the cost of providing the health care. Not the total cost, regardless of how it gets paid.

Now, when you say your family's care cost's less than $5000/year are you forgetting what your employer kicks in? What does it REALLY cost? What if you had to cover their share as well? "

No we are not. PLEASE read the original article Asitis!

The article from which this debate sprung was about what Canadian citizens vs American citizens PAY.

The original point was that Canadians pay out of pocket through taxes more than Americans. My source, admitedly from 2006, holds this. You are skewing numbers to serve your point. If you want to include total actual costs, then bring up what the total actual costs of Canadian health care. You are currently comparing the out of pocket cost to Canadians to the TOTAL cost of Americans. Again, the issue is out of pocket.

Besides, I pay 100% of my insurance. I have a "part-time" job so our plan is crap, yet it still only costs 350 a month at the best plan.

"It costs $1,200 per year in taxes for each Quebec citizen to have access to the public health system. This means that the average two-child family pays close to $5,000 per year in public health insurance."

Read before posting please. Notice the word "pays."

Care to take back your statement?

By the way, consider your apparent confusion, do you actually PAY out of pocket 1400 a month, or is part of that covered by your employer?

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 10:10 PM

What are you talking about? In Canada the medical costs are covered by taxes. You "pay" through your taxes.

My apparent confusion? nO we don't pay $1400 per month. But that's what our plan costs.

Astitis-

I know- Quebecois is best in Quebec, but some poutine is better than no poutine, which is what I have here in Texas. It's like looking for good Mexican food north of the Red River- it won't be great, but it's better than nothing.

Ontario has some good poutine.

Asitis: "My apparent confusion? nO we don't pay $1400 per month. But that's what our plan costs."

We are talking about what you pay. Do you pay what your employer covers? No. Do Canadians pay what they are taxed? Yes. Your numbers are including what others pay for you. They dont match and they skew the comparison.

What are you talking about? In Canada the medical costs are covered by taxes. You "pay" through your taxes.

In Canada, they have a much smaller population no national defense. When you don't have to purchase superior firepower, you have more money for socialist programs without taxing your citizens to death.

We must keep our armed forces. Canada banks on it. Anything creepin' round their back stair would be handled by the US, which secures the whole damn continent.

Canadian healthcare is sub-par, which is why Canadians with means cross the border. Women come here to give birth because hospitals have no room for them. You could easily die waiting for your turn- many, many do.

The original point was that Canadians pay out of pocket through taxes more than Americans. My source, admitedly from 2006, holds this. You are skewing numbers to serve your point. If you want to include total actual costs, then bring up what the total actual costs of Canadian health care. You are currently comparing the out of pocket cost to Canadians to the TOTAL cost of Americans. Again, the issue is out of pocket.

Out of pocket? Oliver, Canadians don't have a separate tax for health care. Those dollars come out of income tax. The figure of $1,200 per person that Lemieux cites most come from what is spent on healthcare divided by the number of people. Some people will actually pay more (because they pay higher income tax) and some people will pay less. But everyone gets the same coverage.

I guess you didn't realize this.

Jacque,

Although you are right, Asitis isnt even arguing along that point. She is claiming that the COST of healthcare in America is comparable to the actual PAYMENT of healthcare by individual citizens. According to her same source, on 2006, the average healthcare expenditure was LESS in America than in Canada, if the author's original numbers are to be believed anyways.

According to her same source, on 2006, the average healthcare expenditure was LESS in America than in Canada, if the author's original numbers are to be believed anyways.

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 10:25 PM

How do you figure this Oliver????? $15,609 (US) is greater than $5000 (Canada).

Canadian physicians are also indemnified to a degree- I know malpractice in America is out of control, but at least their is a level of accountability in our system- consumer sovereignty at least (you lose business if you harm someone). Canada's medical system could be equated to the Texas DMV.

Asitis: "How do you figure this Oliver????? $15,609 (US) is greater than $5000 (Canada)."

No, 4,700(US) is less than 5000(Canada).

The original article said "the average two-child family [in Canada] pays close to $5,000 per year in public health insurance."

Will you really not own up to what the debate is and has been since this article was posted? Im not debating what you think "should" be the issue, but what IS the issue, that Canadians pay out of their own pocket more on average than Americans. Do you have numbers to show otherwise?

Glynn? Douglas Glynn Hampton by chance?

Jacque: "Canada's medical system could be equated to the Texas DMV."

Or the post office, or the Social Security office, or public schools, or the Medicaid office, or a public health clinic.....

Yeh, you're right Jacque. In Canada it's not like you would lose your license to practiceif you harmed someone!

What i will say, though, is the level of customer service is better in the states. Doctors have to compete for your business here in a way they don't have to in Canada. Oh how I don't miss waitingand waiting for a receptionist to answer the phone!

No, 4,700(US) is less than 5000(Canada).

The original article said "the average two-child family [in Canada] pays close to $5,000 per year in public health insurance."

Will you really not own up to what the debate is and has been since this article was posted? Im not debating what you think "should" be the issue, but what IS the issue, that Canadians pay out of their own pocket more on average than Americans. Do you have numbers to show otherwise?

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 10:32 PM

Oliver, where are you getting this $4700????? It's $15,609.

Glynn? Douglas Glynn Hampton by chance?

Posted by: Jacqueline at March 8, 2009 10:32 PM

No.

"What i will say, though, is the level of customer service is better in the states."

Well, if you can pay for it. If you're having to go to bad doctors because you can't afford anything else, it could be pretty difficult for you to find a means to sue or press charges against those bad doctors for malpractice.

Asitis: "Oliver, where are you getting this $4700????? It's $15,609."

Show me your source. I just looked up the Millman Medical Index for 2006 and did my math more properly to see that the average payment from a citizen was 5000.

Is your 15,609 couting what the employers contribute? It should only count what the average American PAYS because that is what the article is discussing.

Well, if you can pay for it. If you're having to go to bad doctors because you can't afford anything else, it could be pretty difficult for you to find a means to sue or press charges against those bad doctors for malpractice.

Posted by: Josephine at March 8, 2009 10:40 PM

I'm not following your line of thought.

Josephine: " If you're having to go to bad doctors because you can't afford anything else"

Im just curious who exactly cant afford the most basic healthcare. Almost every plan I looked at to cover my family of 4 bottomed out around 300 dollars a month. Thats a very low number to pay per month unless you are poor enough to already qualify for medicaid. Of course, as it turns out, my job offered health insurance and I pay 100% at the discounted rate of 200 monthly. Who cant afford this that does not currently qualify for government health insurance?

Glynn,

Im still trying to figure out what her comment about grading my student's test meant. She didnt explain for me. Good luck to you though.

Glynn,

Im still trying to figure out what her comment about grading my student's test meant. She didnt explain for me. Good luck to you though.

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 10:50 PM

Thanks, Oliver. :)

Oliver, yes, I am counting what the employer pays. I keep telling you this. The point is that health care in the US for a family of four costs a lot more than it does in Canada. The average plan costs $15,609 compared to $5000 in Quebec. This is how much it costs , on average, in each country to have access to health care. In Canada this is covered through taxes. In the US it is covered by insurance premiums paid for by the consumer and sometimes by the employer as well. Regardless of how it is paid, it is much higher than in Canada on average.

The point he is making is that the cost of public medicine isn't free and it's expensive. In actuality, the cost of health care is higher in the states.

Oliver, I know a LOT of people who don't qualify for public health care but can't afford it by themselves. I'm from Chicago-- cost of living is ridiculous. We've been looking at apartments for next year, and so far the first DECENT thing we've found is about $1,500. A lot of people can't swing an extra $100 a month for insurance.. but need to stay in the city for work.

Glynn, my point was that "custom service" is only better in the US for those who can afford it. It wasn't meant to correlate with the conversation about price. Sorry if that caused some confusion.

Canadian healthcare is sub-par, which is why Canadians with means cross the border. Women come here to give birth because hospitals have no room for them.

Posted by: Jacqueline at March 8, 2009 10:25 PM

Really? Or do they come for the dual citizenship?

Jacqueline, I've heard of cancer patients having to go across the border for treatment rather than waiting for availibility at home, and the gov't pays for this. But I've never heard of people having to go across the border to deliver babies? How often is this happening? Where?

An overburdened economy, a tanking Dow, trillions in deficit, the highest jobless rate in 23 years, a "stimulus" package with 9287 earmarks. Exactly who is going to pay for socialized medicine? Here's the interesting little thing about free healthcare...it isn't free.

Do you mean just for doctors? (We know you hate them so). Or do you think for anyone's income over $250k?

yllas:And Obama agrees.

Oh does he?

Posted by: yllas at March 8, 2009 4:01 PM

Posted by: asitis at March 8, 2009 4:29 PM

Any income over $250k should be taxed at 50% and more, which is exactly what Obama has declared.

As for doctors, and income; Pay them according to any socialst nation in the world. Such as Cuba.

Rumor has it that Cuban doctors are payed less then $100 dollars a month, and are as well trained as any USA doc.

Hey, I'm for immigration, and allow them into the USA as legal and illegal immigrants.

Eventually, it can be said that those Cuban doctors are doing "jobs American's don't want to do".

I'm looking for a reference- but stories of women crossing into North Dakota because maternity wards were full come to mind.

I'm getting my dual citizenship for myself and my kids by just marrying a Canadian. Still looking for volunteers, though.

Until that day, I have to cross the border every 90 days and officially work in the US. Boo!

Yllas-- you offer American doctors $100 and see who will put in the eight-ten years of schooling it takes to get there. I'm twenty right now. I will not be a full fledged can-do-anything-without-a-superior doctor until I'm about 27/28.

Asitis: "Oliver, yes, I am counting what the employer pays. I keep telling you this."

I know, but you arent reading the article. His point is that even in a "free" healthcare system, the tax paying citizen pays as much as an American if not more.

Asitis: "The point is that health care in the US for a family of four costs a lot more than it does in Canada."

Where in the article do you see what it "costs" in general versus what it "costs" to the average tax paying citizen? Ive quoted the article I think 3 times now. When are you going to actually read and pay attention? You are only furthering the appearance of your own idiocy. You are comparing apples to oranges Asitis. Why do you argue just to argue? Why can you never admit when you are wrong, even when you are so wrong as you are here?

Asitis: "The average plan costs $15,609 compared to $5000 in Quebec. This is how much it costs , on average, in each country to have access to health care. In Canada this is covered through taxes. In the US it is covered by insurance premiums paid for by the consumer and sometimes by the employer as well."

Care to explain why I should care what the total cost of healthcare is? I only care what I pay out of my pocket. Universal healthcare is going to push all of that 15,000 into the pockets of the consumer. Why would I want that? As it is in Canada I would pay a lot more for my insurance out of pocket. Why is that what we want?

Asitis: "Regardless of how it is paid, it is much higher than in Canada on average.

The point he is making is that the cost of public medicine isn't free and it's expensive. In actuality, the cost of health care is higher in the states."

No read his article. His point is that it is not "free" in that the citizens pay for the insurance. Look back at what the article is saying here. I teach Reading Comprehension for a living Asitis, you may need a few pointers.

And you wonder why people claim that you are illogical! You apparently cant even interpret a simple article without skewing to your own personal agenda. I like what Glynn claimed, that you rely on emotions and not reason.

Where in the article do you see what it "costs" in general versus what it "costs" to the average tax paying citizen? Ive quoted the article I think 3 times now. When are you going to actually read and pay attention? You are only furthering the appearance of your own idiocy. You are comparing apples to oranges Asitis. Why do you argue just to argue? Why can you never admit when you are wrong, even when you are so wrong as you are here?

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 11:11 PM

"First of all, socialized medicine, although of poor quality, is very expensive".

"It costs $1,200 per year in taxes for each Quebec citizen to have access to the public health system."

There you go Oliver. Stop being rude.

Oliver, it might be time for me to wish you good luck.

Josephine: "and so far the first DECENT thing we've found is about $1,500."

The first wrong thing you said was "DECENT." Nobody owes you or anyone else a "DECENT" place to live. Try telling a starving child in Africa that a cheaper apartment is not "DECENT" enough for you. Why should I have to pay for someone's insurance because they have too high of a standard to live where their income should dictate? If you cant afford insurance, move somewhere cheaper.

Besides, 1500 isnt that bad. I pay 1000 right now and only work part-time as a student.

Josephine: "A lot of people can't swing an extra $100 a month for insurance.. but need to stay in the city for work."

Why would they need to stay in the city for work? I used to commute and hour and a half a day to afford living. You think I could afford to live in Dallas? I made do with what I had. When I didnt have the money, my family lived in an effeciency apartment, something that apparently a lot of Americans are "too good" for and therefore need me to pay for their health insurance. Apparently I am really paying for their nice house or apartment.

If you cant swing 100 extra dollars a month for health insurance, that is your own fault. Cut back on cable or fast food or your car payment or move to a cheaper apartment. Get a part job at UPS or the gas station.

The medicaid cut off points are something like 1700 a month with an additional 500 or so for each additional member of your family. I am not talking about the medicaid people here.

"Are you willing to spend time studying the issues, making yourself aware, and then conveying that information to family and friends? Will you resist the temptation to get a government handout for your community? Realize that the doctor's fight against socialized medicine is your fight. We can't socialize the doctors without socializing the patients. Recognize that government invasion of public power is eventually an assault upon your own business. If some among you fear taking a stand because you are afraid of reprisals from customers, clients, or even government, recognize that you are just feeding the crocodile hoping he'll eat you last." --Ronald Reagan

How about discussing some of the reasons doctors fight socialized medicine. There is a lot more to it than money.

"The annual premium for an employer health plan covering a family of four averaged nearly $12,700. The annual premium for single coverage averaged over $4,700."

National Coalition of Healthcare.

Care to explain why I should care what the total cost of healthcare is? I only care what I pay out of my pocket. Universal healthcare is going to push all of that 15,000 into the pockets of the consumer. Why would I want that? As it is in Canada I would pay a lot more for my insurance out of pocket. Why is that what we want?

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 11:11 PM

Why would you care? Well, for those of us who get part of the cost of our health care covered by our employer, our "out of pocket" costs would rise if our employer reduces their share or drops us all together. Good to knwo what the actual cost is.

It would follow that if the US did go to a univeral system (which i doubt it will), the average cost would not be $15,609. For starters, the whole health insurance industry wouldn't be gobbling up money.

Now as for what you would be paying in Canada Oliver.... I don't know what you make, but your income might be low enough that
you would actually be paying less and others would be subsidizing you through their higher taxes.

"How about discussing some of the reasons doctors fight socialized medicine. There is a lot more to it than money."

Lots of doctors are in favor of it, too. Why don't we discuss the reasons they're in favor of it.

Asitis,

Here is your quote with some more context. Tip number one for Reading Comprehension. Always make sure to read more context than you think. I usually suggest 4-5 lines up AND down.

"It costs $1,200 per year in taxes for each Quebec citizen to have access to the public health system. This means that the average two-child family pays close to $5,000 per year in public health insurance. "

The part that says "this means" leads the first line to the second line. In other words, his first line is the premise to conclude that "the average two-child family PAYS."

Try again Asitis. The article is clear if you use a little bit of reasoning skills.

The first wrong thing you said was "DECENT." Nobody owes you or anyone else a "DECENT" place to live. Try telling a starving child in Africa that a cheaper apartment is not "DECENT" enough for you. Why should I have to pay for someone's insurance because they have too high of a standard to live where their income should dictate? If you cant afford insurance, move somewhere cheaper.

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 11:19 PM

Well said, Oliver.

Lots of doctors are in favor of it, too. Why don't we discuss the reasons they're in favor of it.

Posted by: Josephine at March 8, 2009 11:24 PM

Really? I don't know any and I work in the medical field. But that is narrowing the field, as well. Did you ever read Taming of the Shrew?

No read his article. His point is that it is not "free" in that the citizens pay for the insurance. Look back at what the article is saying here. I teach Reading Comprehension for a living Asitis, you may need a few pointers.

And you wonder why people claim that you are illogical! You apparently cant even interpret a simple article without skewing to your own personal agenda. I like what Glynn claimed, that you rely on emotions and not reason.

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 11:11 PM

Wow Oliver. You really are an angry man. So insulting. Yes, he is saying it isn't "free". But isn't that obvious? Of course anything the governemnet funds is paid for through taxes. And who pays those taxes? We do. It goes without saying that it isn't free.

But he is also saying it is expensive. But the fact is, health care in Canada costs less than in the U.S.

"The part that says "this means" leads the first line to the second line. In other words, his first line is the premise to conclude that "the average two-child family PAYS."

Sure Oliver.... and in Canada, the total is paid for through taxes. So we are also talking about what the total cost is for that health care.

Can you really not comprehend this part?
Because I feel you are just wasting my time. And I have an early morning.

Uhm, Oliver. I have healthcare through my parents. You're not paying for me in any way, thanks... (well, except your taxes gave me a GIANT bonus last year!)

If you have a JOB in Chicago and you went to SCHOOL in Chicago, MOVING would take more money than healthcare. If you can't afford health care, you can't afford to move-- especially if moving would take you away from a job that you ALREADY HAVE. You apparently don't understand what it's like for people living paycheck to paycheck and that's sad.

Oh, and as for "decent"... I'm going to guess you haven't been to Chicago, because "decent" means SAFE in the city. :) I don't know about you-- I wouldn't live in the ghetto.

Glynn,
Yes. Really. You may not know any, but there are a lot of them.

Asitis: "It would follow that if the US did go to a univeral system (which i doubt it will), the average cost would not be $15,609. For starters, the whole health insurance industry wouldn't be gobbling up money."

And where did you find information on this? Are you just making this up entirely or did you have some sort of statistic or study you plan on quoting? Try not to misquote the numbers again. The government is incredibly inefficient. Why do you think our rates would drop? Because the rates in Canada are lower overall? Are you again making another flawed assumption that correlation necessarily denotes causation? There could be other explanations to the difference in TOTAL care that would not alleviate the overal cost in the US.

Asitis: "Now as for what you would be paying in Canada Oliver.... I don't know what you make, but your income might be low enough that
you would actually be paying less and others would be subsidizing you through their higher taxes."

I wouldnt really want them to now as much as I would not want to when I make above the arbitrary line of "wealth."

Glynn,
Yes. Really. You may not know any, but there are a lot of them.

Posted by: Josephine at March 8, 2009 11:33 PM

Okay, then why are they for it?

I'm sorry that you guys are embroiled in this fight. I think that the bottom line is that both of you are hoping for good healthcare but you disagree on the specific definition of what good healthcare is. Can you settle this at that?

Asitis: "But he is also saying it is expensive. But the fact is, health care in Canada costs less than in the U.S."

The fact is that Americans pay similar amounts out of pocket on average than in Canada.

I wouldnt really want them to now as much as I would not want to when I make above the arbitrary line of "wealth."

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 11:34 PM

???????????

Asitis: "Sure Oliver.... and in Canada, the total is paid for through taxes. So we are also talking about what the total cost is for that health care.

Can you really not comprehend this part?
Because I feel you are just wasting my time. And I have an early morning."

I wont argue, and nor did I, that the total cost is not AN issue. The point is that it is not THE issue. I understand that the taxes are likely the total cost, but the point is that in Canada healthcare is still laregly paid out of pocket.

Yllas-- you offer American doctors $100 and see who will put in the eight-ten years of schooling it takes to get there. I'm twenty right now. I will not be a full fledged can-do-anything-without-a-superior doctor until I'm about 27/28.

Posted by: Josephine at March 8, 2009 11:11 PM

Ok, how about no citizen having a income of over 10x's the lowest wage?

I'm just telling you what Obama has declared; tax a person whose income is over $250k at a rate of %50.

What will occur in the USA if doctor's salaries are essentially capped at $250k, and still think their worth more is exactly what should happen to them; Quit, and do something else.

The more they quit, the more the Democrats will begin to demonize them.

The less health care, the more people will insist on lowering the pay scale of those "greedy health care professionals".

Worked in any nation where a Depression occured in the 20th century, and from the looks of it, your precious O man is working hard to make those economic conditions bear fruit.

To bad, your held hostage to a greedy system, which includes all university systems of "doc training".

Your cost for a education are high?

What will you think the cost will be in a socialist nation? It's free. And accorind to the latest Cuban miracles of health care, they are exporting doc's to foreign nations to impliment their low cost education system to many Latin nations.

Your a sucker paying such cost, while a simple application to a Cuban university would eliminate any burden upon you.

But, your a greedy little soul yourself, and that greed will get you sued sooner or later, once you step outta the mil spec system your in.

I said: "I wouldnt really want them to now as much as I would not want to when I make above the arbitrary line of "wealth.""

I will admit that this was a bit hard to parse. Let me clarify a bit.

"I wouldnt really want them to [subsidize me] now as much as I would not want to [subsidize others] when I make above the arbitrary line of "wealth.""

Pretty much my family and my professors, the doctors I work with at the hospital all agree: there are TOO MANY PEOPLE not getting healthcare. There are too many people going into the emergency room for ridiculous thing because they can't afford doctor's appointments, but taxpayers are paying for the ER visits anyway. An ER visit at my hospital will still run about $1,000-- if you can afford it, or if you can't.

The number one cause of bankrupty in the US (well, from last year-- this may change since everyone is losing their jobs..) is medical care! Even if you HAVE insurance, a lot of times you have to pay on top of it! My professor told us he had a heart attack when he was in his forties and WITH the universities health insurance, he still paid thousands (he didn't give us an exact number..) in bills outside of that. From what I understand-- that's not the case in Canada.

Asitis: "But he is also saying it is expensive. But the fact is, health care in Canada costs less than in the U.S."

The fact is that Americans pay similar amounts out of pocket on average than in Canada.

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 11:35 PM

Yes, this is true. But it is important to note that in Canada that covers the cost of the health care where as in the US this only covers about 1/3 of the total costs.

I'm sorry that you guys are embroiled in this fight. I think that the bottom line is that both of you are hoping for good healthcare but you disagree on the specific definition of what good healthcare is. Can you settle this at that?

Posted by: Vannah at March 8, 2009 11:35 PM

That isn't at all what I am arguing, Vannah. I am not arguing either. I am discussing in hopes of some logical debate. I am dead set against socialized medine for all the reasons I quoted above. Personally, I am pretty weary of the entitlement mentality of some people in this country. I am in my seventh decade, have worked hard all my life and never had a thing given to me. It is inconceivable that we are on this slippery slope into socialism, a failed experiment that has never ever worked and that includes socialized medicine. The United States has the highest level of health care in the world. That's why people fly in here from all over the world for health care. The Cleveland Clinic, which I visit regularly, is full of people from the Middle East. Their heart surgeons are the best in the world. Pardon me if I would like to keep it that way.

Oh, I know your opinions Mr(s). Glynn- and I think that they are well-founded. I didn't mean to sound acidic or judgmental. I just think that it is somewhat wearisome when you come to discuss human rights (even though this particular thread started out as comment on comics) and there is fighting over healthcare in Canada versus healthcare in the U.S.

If it isn't too bizarre to ask, could you explain your position better to me? I don't know very much about healthcare at all. I would like to have a peaceful discussion with you about it since I know very little about it. I really didn't mean to sound disrespectful. I meant it in all respect.

I wont argue, and nor did I, that the total cost is not AN issue.

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 11:37 PM

Well I would say it actually is the issue seeing as that's where the big difference is.

"The annual premium for an employer health plan covering a family of four averaged nearly $12,700. The annual premium for single coverage averaged over $4,700."

National Coalition of Healthcare.
Posted by: Josephine at March 8, 2009 11:22 PM

Wasn't the $5,000 for a family of four in Canada....

Yllas,
Why are you still talking about pay caps? Obama isn't capping the pay of doctors. They aren't "esentially" being capped. If you're so stupid that you'll work less just so you have to pay less taxes, which would prevent you from making more money-- well, they're too stupid to be doctors.

Oh, and I don't pay my tuition...err, you do though.. sooo, the bottom half has nothing to do with me really.

Joesphine: "Uhm, Oliver. I have healthcare through my parents. You're not paying for me in any way, thanks... (well, except your taxes gave me a GIANT bonus last year!)"

It was a rhetorical address aimed at the people who are "too poor" to afford healthcare but dont qualify for state healthcare.

Josephine: "If you have a JOB in Chicago and you went to SCHOOL in Chicago, MOVING would take more money than healthcare. If you can't afford health care, you can't afford to move-- especially if moving would take you away from a job that you ALREADY HAVE. You apparently don't understand what it's like for people living paycheck to paycheck and that's sad."

I actually have lived paycheck to paycheck for almost my entire married life. Heck, my parents lived paycheck to paycheck for almost my wole childhood. I am just now starting to earn enough money to save.

That said, let me explain "living paycheck to paycheck." Most of the problems with this lifestyle result from improper budgeting. For example, you dont spend the money on eating out when you dont have the money, but when you start to earn a little extra...things change. The same goes for housing. A house or apartment that is fine when you are dirt poor is suddenly no longer "DECENT" when you can afford more.

Now when did I say anything about moving? I said commute. Now if you mean to imply that the people living in the city who cannot afford the city cannot move in order to commute, then these people need to save money and do without until they CAN afford to move/commute. Moving in state is actually incredibly cheap. You can rent a UHaul for a couple hundred bucks depending on the specials to move to a suburb.

Josephine: "Oh, and as for "decent"... I'm going to guess you haven't been to Chicago, because "decent" means SAFE in the city. :) I don't know about you-- I wouldn't live in the ghetto."

Some people have to Josephine. Why should I have to pay your health insurance so that you can live in a safer place than the "ghetto" anyways? Besides, you can always move to a suburb area and commute a little bit. Does Chicago have public transportation?

Asitis,

Did you ever think that the costs of our heathcare are because of how top notch the healthcare we have is? Im curious. How extensive is your coverage? My coverage at UPS included drug rehab and insanity insurance. It also included infertility treatment. Does the Canadian healthcare system cover these things? Does yours?

And thats nothing to say about the QUALITY of care. Either the quality will go down, or the price will stay up when/if we switch to socialized health care.

Posted by: Vannah at March 8, 2009 11:45 PM

I wasn't really addressing you, Vannah. Sorry if I seemed a little impatient. My position is this. I posted a Ronald Reagan quote above which really has much more meaning to it than it seems. Socialized medicine puts the control of meidicine in the hands of the government. I am a conservative and that is anathema to me. The government will provide "guidelines" for treatment. If you recall, just last week the media carried the information that under Obama's new "stimulus" package, one of the programs that would be cut was medicare and the ominous explanation was that part of those cuts would be a regulation whereby someone other than the healthcare provider (read that as the GOVERNMENT) would decide if the care needed was actually needed. The first cartoon on this page, showing Obama throwing a medicare patient into a volcano addressed just this. If, for instance, you are 83 years old and need a hip replacement, some nefarious GOVERNMENT person might decide that the risk versus benefit (read that cost versus benefit) was not worth it. You might be an otherwise healthy 83 year old but you aren't going to get your hip, or your bypass, or your dialysis. There is a sinister cost to socialized medicine and that is just one of them. Another thread, which you may have read here, is that Obama is going to revoke the right of healthcare workers to refuse to participate in medical procedures which are against their ethical and/or moral belief system. You might also recall reading that the Catholics have said they will close the doors to their facilities before being forced into doing abortions. Under socialized medicine, physicians will do what the government tells them despite their personal beliefs. This is just the tip of the iceberg. So the discussion about social medicine really does belong on a prolife blog.

Oliver, Chicago has public transportation. Chicago does. The suburbs have public transportation TO Chicago. My family lives in the east suburbs. We didn't have public transportation in the suburb-- ONLY to get to Chicago. So, I guess "whoa is me" if you need to get ANYWHERE-- I don't know about you, but I have a lot of friends in the city without cars. So they should leave the city, move to a suburb, buy a car... that doesn't sound like the way to afford insurance to me.

Pretty much my family and my professors, the doctors I work with at the hospital all agree: there are TOO MANY PEOPLE not getting healthcare. There are too many people going into the emergency room for ridiculous thing because they can't afford doctor's appointments, but taxpayers are paying for the ER visits anyway. An ER visit at my hospital will still run about $1,000-- if you can afford it, or if you can't.

Posted By Josefine.

What a tool.

The main cause of ER care is simple; non emergency doc's work 8 to five, if that.

Millions get sick after hours and are told(insured or not) to go to the ER, by a person who is actually nothingmore then the doc's "answering service".

Get real Josephine.

My My your daddy runs out of the house and get on down to the ER to do what with a patient after 5?

NOTHING. He ain't trained and has no "equipment" to do any diagnotic work anyway.

Case in point.

My right side of my stomach has been hurting since yesterday Doc, what should I do? Go to the ER, it's Friday afternoon.

Okay Oliver. I'm off to bed.I stayed up way past my bedtime to sort this out with you. It would be nice if you apologized for being so insulting. I'll leave that with you. Good night.

Why are you still talking about pay caps? Obama isn't capping the pay of doctors. They aren't "esentially" being capped. If you're so stupid that you'll work less just so you have to pay less taxes, which would prevent you from making more money-- well, they're too stupid to be doctors.

Oh, and I don't pay my tuition...err, you do though.. sooo, the bottom half has nothing to do with me really.

Posted by: Josephine at March 8, 2009 11:46 PM

It is not estimated that those making over $250,000.00 a year will pay as high as 72% taxes. If that isn't capping what is?

As an aside, I remember in one of my basic ethics classes studying universal healthcare. I distinctly remember the Canadian system as used as an concession by the pro-socialism philosophers to the occasional failure of a universal system. Not that I can cite anything of course, but I just find it an interesting aside.

" The main cause of ER care is simple; non emergency doc's work 8 to five, if that."

Uhm. You're very, very wrong about that. I work in an ER. There are doctors 24/7.

My dad never leaves the house to "run to the ER" because that's not where he works... that'd be awkward.

The hospital I work at, at home AND at school, have 24/7 ER docs and people available to run any kind of test 24/7. So, you really should bone up.

My post above should have read it IS estimated, not it is NOT estimated.

Oliver, socialism has never worked. I worked in the Middle East for years at a hospital in Riyadh. I worked with a lot of Brits and Canadians and not one of them had a good thing to say about socialized medicine. Socialism is a failure and we should fight it all costs.

Josephine: "Oliver, Chicago has public transportation. Chicago does. The suburbs have public transportation TO Chicago. My family lives in the east suburbs. We didn't have public transportation in the suburb-- ONLY to get to Chicago. So, I guess "whoa is me" if you need to get ANYWHERE-- I don't know about you, but I have a lot of friends in the city without cars. So they should leave the city, move to a suburb, buy a car... that doesn't sound like the way to afford insurance to me. "

They cant walk to the grocery store? Or pick up groceries in Chicago after work? Can they not buy a bike for cheap?

What would you guys do if all of a sudden we were in an apocolypse? How would you survive if you didnt have the forced help of others? You sound a little self entitled there Josephine.

Also, just for future reference, its "woe is me" I believe. Considering you called me on the "LVN" thing, I think it only appropriate to help you here.

The bottom line is that there ARE things you can cut back on for health care, and if there are not, you fall under the current medicaid system. Although, as someone experienced of medicaid, it is terribly run.

" The main cause of ER care is simple; non emergency doc's work 8 to five, if that."

Uhm. You're very, very wrong about that. I work in an ER. There are doctors 24/7.

My dad never leaves the house to "run to the ER" because that's not where he works... that'd be awkward.

The hospital I work at, at home AND at school, have 24/7 ER docs and people available to run any kind of test 24/7. So, you really should bone up.

Posted by: Josephine at March 8, 2009 11:58 PM

Josephine, I believe the key phrase here was NON-EMERGENCY DOCS. What the poster was saying is that your average physician has an 8 to 9 hour day and then everyone goes to the ER after that.

Also, just for future reference, its "woe is me" I believe. Considering you called me on the "LVN" thing, I think it only appropriate to help you here.

The bottom line is that there ARE things you can cut back on for health care, and if there are not, you fall under the current medicaid system. Although, as someone experienced of medicaid, it is terribly run.

Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 12:00 AM

They are called LVNs in Oklahoma, too, Oliver.

Glynn, my point was that people go to the ER for EVERYTHING because they can't afford non emergency docs.

"They cant walk to the grocery store? Or pick up groceries in Chicago after work? Can they not buy a bike for cheap?"

Have you ever spent time in the Chicago suburbs? Our house is in a neighborhood surrounded by other neighborhoods-- no where NEAR the country. The closest grocery store is still about ten miles. "Ride a bike" to go grocery shopping?

Sure, they can buy groceries in Chicago, hold them on the bus for two hours (not an exaggeration-- our transportation sucks!) then get them home from the bus stop... how? Because bus stops here are generally around the stores!

What would YOU do? Here, I'll help out-- for an apartment in a TERRIBLE neighborhood-- you're still paying about $800 minimum.

Glynn: "Josephine, I believe the key phrase here was NON-EMERGENCY DOCS. What the poster was saying is that your average physician has an 8 to 9 hour day and then everyone goes to the ER after that. "

For a second I thought the quote of Josephine's post was your post and I was thinking "Oh crap. Glynn actually grossly misread that person. That wasnt very sharp."

Im glad to see that you were not only NOT the person making the post, but that you were SO sharp as to catch the flaw!

"What would you guys do if all of a sudden we were in an apocolypse? How would you survive if you didnt have the forced help of others? You sound a little self entitled there Josephine."

I don't even understand what you're talking about, if you could clarify.

The hospital I work at, at home AND at school, have 24/7 ER docs and people available to run any kind of test 24/7. So, you really should bone up.

Posted by: Josephine at March 8, 2009 11:58 PM

No kidding? Doc's that are trained in ER care are not family/GP/ doc's

People arrive at a ER for a "tummy ache" because their family provider doesn't WORK after 5pm.

In fact, any practicing neuro-surgeon will do his best to avoid being on call for a university/county system because they become libel for a lawsuit by a person with no insurance.

But, might I ask you again, will you be taking a ATLS course by the College of Surgeons?

Seen some of the so called best non ER doc's(many with 20 years of practice in Orthopedic,Pulmonary,Cardio, to neuro) fail that test.

Thank you for explaining this Mr(s). Glynn in simpler terms. I mean it. There are two things that I need baby food versions of (for now), and that would be healthcare and economics for they are both really confusing.

There is something terrifying about government run health. I have a cousin who is in a wheelchair, and though he's in good health, I wouldn't want anything bad to happen because the government is tyrannical. But then I read about children who die of simple problems that could have been fixed had they only had healthcare. Is there a happy medium between the two?

Furthermore, you have a point. I never understood why "pro-choice" supporters say that the government stay out of "reproductive" choices...so long as they pay the bill for clinics, own healthcare workers, etc. They seem to want a powerful government very much. I don't know how I feel about that since I've always been raised on the "American government is the best ever" textbook stuff.

Really, is there anything that we can do about the poor, though? What of the children? I mean, what would they do if their parents refuse to work? Should there be socialist-type programs for them because it's not their fault? Or those who work hard every day of their lives but still cannot afford decent healthcare? I mean, what should we do? And, again, I mean this in all respect because this really is a very complicated matter indeed.

Im glad to see that you were not only NOT the person making the post, but that you were SO sharp as to catch the flaw!

Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 12:08 AM

I'm trying to keep up! Phew!

Yllas, you're wrong. People go to the ER at 2p.m. on a Thursday-- not just nights and weekends. They do it because they CAN'T AFFORD to go to doctor appointments. I deal with these people almost daily!

And, docs that are "trained" in the ER ARE, in fact, GPs..

As for neuro surgeons, you do realize I said we have people to run TESTS right? Surgeons and people that run tests are VERY DIFFERENT PEOPLE. I'm not sure I've ever been to a hospital with it's own person neuro ssurgeon, since they're so few and far between.

Josephine: "Have you ever spent time in the Chicago suburbs? Our house is in a neighborhood surrounded by other neighborhoods-- no where NEAR the country. The closest grocery store is still about ten miles. "Ride a bike" to go grocery shopping? "

I guess youve never been to Austin. People ride their bikes to get groceries all the time. Certainly you cant get much, but youd be suprised what you can get in the basket. Besides, a good alternative would be to hire a taxi once every two weeks to do shopping. 10 miles roudntrip twice a month would probably cost you 100 bucks, but I guess it depends on where you live. 100 bucks to save 700? Sounds good to me, and sounds like you could pick up a health insurance plan there.

Actually, if you are paying 1500 for a DECENT place, you could probably pick up a DECENT place in a suburb for 700ish.

Hey, I found one that is "walking" distance to shopping too for 700! You should try apartment finder instead of trying to live in the city. Save you some money. Then again, those cool studio apartments downtown sure are enticing.

Josephine: "Sure, they can buy groceries in Chicago, hold them on the bus for two hours (not an exaggeration-- our transportation sucks!) then get them home from the bus stop... how? Because bus stops here are generally around the stores!

What would YOU do? Here, I'll help out-- for an apartment in a TERRIBLE neighborhood-- you're still paying about $800 minimum."

I found a place in a suburb for 638. I didnt even look at all the suburbs, just one.

Actually, I found one that is minutes from the train station for 450. I found another for 355.

Whats the complaint? Heck, Im thinking I should move into one of these places! I wonder what the test prep activity in Chicago is like...

Josephine: "I don't even understand what you're talking about, if you could clarify."

Whats to clarify? If our world turned to anarchy, you seem to make it that the average person would just roll over and die. What would they, or you do? Is it so impossible to make it in this world without the help of others? Really?

Tricks of the Trade.

When a person is admitted to the ER and is stabilized unto and out of the ER to the county/univeristy health care hospital, one of the tricks of the trade of those non Emergency doc's(floor doc's) is to always make his rounds at and before 6am.

In this way, the Floor Doc(while training his future doc's) physician avoids any family contact.

The less the "concerned know", the better for them.

Which leads to questions being asked of those nurses who can get in a heap-o-trouble with one wrong word to a family member.

.

Really, is there anything that we can do about the poor, though? What of the children? I mean, what would they do if their parents refuse to work? Should there be socialist-type programs for them because it's not their fault? Or those who work hard every day of their lives but still cannot afford decent healthcare? I mean, what should we do? And, again, I mean this in all respect because this really is a very complicated matter indeed.

Posted by: Vannah at March 9, 2009 12:11 AM

What a pleaure you are to talk to! Most states, as far as I know, provide insurance for the true poor. They have it here in Ohio and also in Missouri, the two states I am familiar with. I am speaking about the children, now. I am not that familiar with adults. Don't get me wrong, I do believe healthcare reform is necessary, but I do not feel socialized medicine is the answer in that you are not really solving the problem and creating a whole new set of problems. By that I mean, suppose you had a brain tumor, my example above, but you could not get in to see a brain surgeon for months because there are long waits in socialized medicine and the word emergency does not seem to exist in that institution. People will die from lack of treatment just like they are now from lack of insurance. I think perhaps stricter regulations on the insurance companies and healthcare in general. Healthcare is entirely too costly. Ever read one of your bills from the hospital - $27.00 for a BAND-AID, etc., etc. As healthcare professional's salaries have increased, so the healthcare institution increases their prices. Physicians pay astronomical fees for malpractice insurance, which in turn is passed on to the patient and insurance companies. I do believe that healthcare reform is in order, but I do not believe medicine should be socialized.

Oliver, I am in Amish/Mennonite country here. I am starting to believe they will be the only survivors. Well, only partially kidding. Two of my brothers are in survivalist groups and we are pretty hunkered down here. As my mother used to say, can't never did anything.

Yllas, I'm forced to conclude you've never spent time in a hospital. Ever.

Oliver, I know the suburbs with the shortest commutes. I know the ones that are reasonable. And I would be willing to bet ALL the money in my bank account that a $400 apartment in a suburb is a.) NOT livable or b.) so long a commute you might as well find a new job.

I've grown up here my whole life, Oliver. There are a lot of things you can't know from apartment finder. Not everything on the internet is better than real life knowledge.

As for ME-- I have a realtor and I want a loft. I can be picky though, and no one is paying my insurance-- I deserve to be picky at this point.

"Physicians pay astronomical fees for malpractice insurance, which in turn is passed on to the patient and insurance companies."

I'm glad someone realizes that. It sure is a shame that people believe a doctor makes a 100% profit.

Hot time in the ER.

A patient is admited with a possible stroke/heart attack.

Under care of their "family heart doc", he/she was given essentially blood thinner to control BP.

A stroke is declared and surgery is declared necessary.

The Neuro surgeon, on call, declines to operate since the patient will bleed like a pig.

And the op will take hours.

From on high the order is given to do that surgery or be repremanded by the board-o-docs/politicans.

Patient dies.

Lawyer gins up a suit because any doc wouldn't have done such surgery knowing the patient was tanked up on blood thinner by the idiot "family doc".

Lawsuit goes against the "private" neuro-surgeon, who was on call, and not the god given, immune "public health care system".

Answer; Screw you university/county system, says the doc. Never again. Get another sucker to do your neuro at this hell hole.

Josephine: "Oliver, I know the suburbs with the shortest commutes. I know the ones that are reasonable. And I would be willing to bet ALL the money in my bank account that a $400 apartment in a suburb is a.) NOT livable or b.) so long a commute you might as well find a new job."

What exactly is "unlivable?" and if it IS a long commute, then find another job Josephine, There are options, Im sure, and if not, why should I pay for your insurance so that you dont have to ride a bus for 5 hours? Times are tough, you have to work your job in the city and move to a far away suburb to commute, but honestly when did we shift from dealing with the tough times to this additude?

Also try me. What is a short enough commute? Ill look it up and find the average price Josephine.

Josephine: "I've grown up here my whole life, Oliver. There are a lot of things you can't know from apartment finder. Not everything on the internet is better than real life knowledge."

Another one of your "well I would know!" arguments from Josephine! I forgot that your dad is a doctor and you are in the military! Please remind me of all the great things you know Josephine!

The truth is that you can be ignorant of your own city, especially at 20, and especially when you grew up with parents as doctors. Your standard may be a little higher than others, considering your "DECENT" comments. By the way, what are the crime statistics on your "ghetos?" or are they "ghettos" simply because the poor blacks live there?

Josephine: "As for ME-- I have a realtor and I want a loft. I can be picky though, and no one is paying my insurance-- I deserve to be picky at this point. "

Right, so the truth comes out. Hey, good for you though. Do you believe that the uninsured are allowed to have the same level of pickiness and therefore demand subsidized health insurance?

(Also, I thought your parents were paying your insurance?)

Oliver-- a twenty minute drive to the city can easily turn to a 2 hour commute on public transportation.

The "ghettos" in Chicago are exactly that "ghettos". Every ethnicity lives there. Ghettos are real things,... there are a lot of ghettos in Chicago.

I like how YOU keep bringing up my dad and my military status... it's pretty hilarious how much you like to talk about me. If I said, I can find this-and-this-and-this out about where you live because of the INTERNET you would think I'm a fool. What you're doing is ridiculous. I would love for you to come see in real life the places you see on the internet for $400.

"There are options, Im sure, and if not, why should I pay for your insurance so that you dont have to ride a bus for 5 hours?"

Oliver-- you ARE paying for these people already. They can't be denied medical care because they can't afford it. I see them in the ER. They're bills get passed to the government. You're ALREADY paying for it.

I have my insurance through my employer, currently. Tricare. And what do you mean, "the truth comes out"? I didn't say the uninsured have a right to be picky-- but they sure as heck have the right to live somewhere safe and clean.

"The truth comes out"... hahah... it's like a soap opera.

I think that this makes much more sense to me now, and it is a pleasure talking to you, too, Mr(s). Glynn (is that your first name, surname, or screen name?). I think that healthcare ought to be reformed, too. I don't have healthcare. My mother tried to get me on her plan and I used to have some Salud! plan, but the state (New Mexico) has really bad plans and both my sister and I lost our healthcare. My sister is getting ready to go off to college so now she's on her own. My mother works at the community college and is on a temporary contract. She has insurance but our typical standard of health is now, "Don't break your leg. Otherwise, you'll be set in cement. We can't afford those expensive casts."

But what you said makes very illuminating sense: people will die for lack of prices but in socialized healthcare they will die for lack of ability to see a doctor. That's very terrifying. Let us hope that what will improve will be doctors all over getting better opportunities to go to college (I think of my friends who live on the reservation when I think of this- they don't have the same opportunities educationally, which is terrible, since they live so far out and there aren't many Native teachers who can encourage them and help find scholarships for them), lower prices, and more preventative measures!

Oh, it's nearly midnight here and I have school tomorrow. If I see you later, this would be a fascinating conversation to continue. Thank you for your help!

Yllas, I'm forced to conclude you've never spent time in a hospital. Ever.

Posted by Josephine.

Yes I have.

And having Gp's be ER docs is a joke.

Which is why I asked if your going to take the ATLS course, Herr doktor.

Which is the test/course of those ill trained gp's that flunk, and take the course again.

Soo, maybe you should "bone up" on what your talking about, and tell me what ATLS is a abbreviation for.

Oliver-- you ARE paying for these people already. They can't be denied medical care because they can't afford it. I see them in the ER. They're bills get passed to the government. You're ALREADY paying for it.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 12:39 AM

Unless it's a VA Hospital, unpaid emergency room bills are passed on to the patient and after awhile, when they don't pay, to a collection agency. The government does not pay the bills of uninsured people. On the other hand, those on Medicaid are partially being paid by the taxpayer. The average American pays about $1500.00 a year in taxes just for those on welfare.

Oh, it's nearly midnight here and I have school tomorrow. If I see you later, this would be a fascinating conversation to continue. Thank you for your help!

Posted by: Vannah at March 9, 2009 12:40 AM

It was a pleasure, Vannah. My cousin was a missionary on one of the reservations in New Mexico. We have great love for the Native people. Take care.

"unpaid emergency room bills are passed on to the patient and after awhile, when they don't pay, to a collection agency."

Uhm, maybe I'm mistaken and this is only an Illinois thing? If a patient has no means of payment, the bill gets passed to the government period. That's WHY they go to the ER. The ER can't deny care-- can't. We have to see EVERYONE... and if they don't have the means to pay, we don't even bill them. We have a file with ALL the patients that have no insurance/no means to pay. You can't squeeze blood from a rock.

The government recoups the hospital 100% on those patients. Now, at private clinics/(private hospitals, too, I'd assume?)... yes, we've had to call collection agencies before because we don't get recouped.

Oliver-- a twenty minute drive to the city can easily turn to a 2 hour commute on public transportation.

Ah, this would not occur if one's parent was a civil servant", and promised the nation that the "trains will run on time".

Josephine: "Oliver-- a twenty minute drive to the city can easily turn to a 2 hour commute on public transportation."

So? I commuted an hour and a half before. Hell, I drive an hour to San Marcos and 30 minutes back Tue-Thur. Does that mean the government should pay me? Of course not. Get over it.

Josephine: "The "ghettos" in Chicago are exactly that "ghettos". Every ethnicity lives there. Ghettos are real things,... there are a lot of ghettos in Chicago."

Well what are the crime statistics that you looked at when you decided they were so unsafe?

Josephine: "I like how YOU keep bringing up my dad and my military status... it's pretty hilarious how much you like to talk about me. If I said, I can find this-and-this-and-this out about where you live because of the INTERNET you would think I'm a fool. What you're doing is ridiculous. I would love for you to come see in real life the places you see on the internet for $400."

I lived in a 400 dollar a month apartment in a suburb of Dallas, Texas. It wasnt bad, but my family gave me heat for it because it "seemed" bad. You know what? I was young, married and had a low paying job. I lived where I needed to live. It was safe and clean, no bugs, just small and old.

So whats a close suburb Josephine?

Josephine: "Oliver-- you ARE paying for these people already. They can't be denied medical care because they can't afford it. I see them in the ER. They're bills get passed to the government. You're ALREADY paying for it."

Now you have a point here. It isnt right and should not be. Does it mean we should have socialized health care? No. We should simply punish those who go to hospital without insurance. Heck, we could do it like Massachussets and make health insurance as manditory as car insurance is in some states. There are other solutions than just "Oh well, lets just pay for them anyways" with socialized healthcare.

Josephine: "I have my insurance through my employer, currently. Tricare."

Sorry, thought I saw that you were under your parents plan somewhere.

Josephine: "And what do you mean, "the truth comes out"? I didn't say the uninsured have a right to be picky-- but they sure as heck have the right to live somewhere safe and clean."

The truth comes as to why 1500 is the best you can do. Your point was that the uninsured could only find a DECENT place for 1500. Turns out you are looking for a specific thing, and in your own words, are being picky. Your personal example that 1500 was the cheapest you could reasonably go is apparently flawed. Hence, the truth comes out. I knew 1500 as a baseline was probably a bit ridiculous. Maybe, maybe in California or New York, but I bet even then, there are ways to survive.

My favorite is the third comic. How very true!

"unpaid emergency room bills are passed on to the patient and after awhile, when they don't pay, to a collection agency."

Uhm, maybe I'm mistaken and this is only an Illinois thing? If a patient has no means of payment, the bill gets passed to the government period. That's WHY they go to the ER. The ER can't deny care-- can't. We have to see EVERYONE... and if they don't have the means to pay, we don't even bill them. We have a file with ALL the patients that have no insurance/no means to pay. You can't squeeze blood from a rock.

The government recoups the hospital 100% on those patients. Now, at private clinics/(private hospitals, too, I'd assume?)... yes, we've had to call collection agencies before because we don't get recouped.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 12:49 AM

Well it must be an "Illinois thing" because I have worked in the medical field for 40 plus years all over the country and I don't know of a single hospital who refers their unpaid bills for uninsured patients to the government. Wow.

Bethany,

The truth is that he should be milking a pregnant cow's baby's baby, but that may be rather creepy.

"unpaid emergency room bills are passed on to the patient and after awhile, when they don't pay, to a collection agency."

Again Josephine

You better "bone up" on that enclosed statement above.

Flat true.

Best part, is that the collection agency will put a lien on your home.

Answer; When admitted to the ER and asked your name; admit to being a illegal alien first and foremost.

Which brings up the greed of the county/university system again.

Smart people, after they get soaked for multi thousands for a heart attack,etc, and owe their fellow citizens that money, go out and get a "reverse mortgage".

Then they give the money(some) to their children/heirs, and rightfully soo, then sail off into a Caribbean sunset too!!

"Sorry, thought I saw that you were under your parents plan somewhere."

I may have said that. I haven't used tricare for long, and am only using it now since I'm getting deployed soon. I just had my parents take me off their plan, since it wouldn't matter while I was gone anyway. If you saw that, I probably just misspoke.

I said the only DECENT place we've seen. Not the only decent place that met our requirements. The only decent place (clean and safe) we've seen has been about 1,500... actually, it may have been 1,400.

"Cost of Living & Apartment Prices
The bad news is that Chicago's overall cost of living is about 66% above the national average. When looking for city apartments for rent, consider the diverse communities that give Chicago its rich tradition as an international city. From China Town to Little Italy, Greektown to Old Town (full of Victorian architecture), the choice of apartment rentals is limitless. Limitless, yes, but not cheap; average apartments for rent in Chicago go for just over $1,000 a month, with utilities costing an average of $86."

$1,400/1,500 isn't ridiculous. It's very, very reasonable for an apartment in Chicago.

Glynn: "Well it must be an "Illinois thing" because I have worked in the medical field for 40 plus years all over the country and I don't know of a single hospital who refers their unpaid bills for uninsured patients to the government. Wow."

Josephine has a history of making of claims and then never backing them up.

She claimed for instance a while ago that the BC somehow prevented cell activation if the cell did indeed become fertilized. She also briefly claimed that activation happened after implantation, although she claimed the opposite as well, so who knows!

"Best part, is that the collection agency will put a lien on your home."

You probably don't own a home if you can't afford doctor visits.

Glynn, we are not talking about just "uninsured" patients. We are talking about patients who do not have the means. Sure, if you have a house a hospital can try and take your house-- but if you don't have anything they can take (house, car) they ARE going to get their money, not just say, "oh well."

Bethany,
The truth is that he should be milking a pregnant cow's baby's baby, but that may be rather creepy.
Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 12:58 AM

True, true.

Josephine: "I said the only DECENT place we've seen. Not the only decent place that met our requirements. The only decent place (clean and safe) we've seen has been about 1,500... actually, it may have been 1,400.

"Cost of Living & Apartment Prices
The bad news is that Chicago's overall cost of living is about 66% above the national average. When looking for city apartments for rent, consider the diverse communities that give Chicago its rich tradition as an international city. From China Town to Little Italy, Greektown to Old Town (full of Victorian architecture), the choice of apartment rentals is limitless. Limitless, yes, but not cheap; average apartments for rent in Chicago go for just over $1,000 a month, with utilities costing an average of $86."

$1,400/1,500 isn't ridiculous. It's very, very reasonable for an apartment in Chicago. "

I think that 500 off of the average is a little ridiculous, especially when you are trying to just barely get by enough to afford health insurance. Besides, you can always move to a suburb. Im curious, what was the one you said was close enough for a commute? Ill look up some options and crime statistics for you. I did the same for my apartments and houses in the past.

You probably don't own a home if you can't afford doctor visits.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:01 AM

You can't be serious!

Oliver, I love your knowledge of me-- but I also find it kind of sad. :)

I have blonde hair, blue eyes, and an awesome tan-- if you're running out of things to talk to people about me! I played volleyball and am in gymnastics.

Oliver-- you tell me, please-- where did you assume the money came from when a patient can't cover their medical bills? PLEASE let me know. Say a man without insurance has a heart attack. Doesn't own a home, doesn't own a car, and can't go back to work--- PLEASE explain to me how you thought his hospital bills get paid for?

Glynn-- if you own a home, you can afford doctor visits because they can TAKE your home. What don't you understand about that? If you own your home and you need care-- they will get their payments from you, even if it is in the form of taking your home!

You CAN afford it. I didn't say easily. I didn't say you can keep your home. If you own a home though-- you DO have means to pay for your doctor.

Oliver-- the article says "over 1,000" not "around 1,000".

Glynn, we are not talking about just "uninsured" patients. We are talking about patients who do not have the means. Sure, if you have a house a hospital can try and take your house-- but if you don't have anything they can take (house, car) they ARE going to get their money, not just say, "oh well."

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:03 AM

Okay, well you really lost me there. Explain the difference between "uninsured" and "don't have the means." Then please explain to me what person in the hospital decides between the two and then decides to soak the government for either of them. I am perplexed beyond the capacity for rational thought.

Well it must be an "Illinois thing" because I have worked in the medical field for 40 plus years all over the country and I don't know of a single hospital who refers their unpaid bills for uninsured patients to the government. Wow.

Posted by: Glynn at March 9, 2009 12:57 A

Texas will get anything you own, if you owe the county/university system a dime.

Call the EMS; pay me.

Cost $500.

No pay, a lien cometh.

Which leads to the fact that you pay "hospital taxes" on your property, and when you use what you payed for, via those high taxes(the highest of property taxes), you still pay the goverment entity.

Latest in Texas; more then one call to the EMS and you will be charged for phoning them 50 bucks.

For the call!!!

Glynn-- if you own a home, you can afford doctor visits because they can TAKE your home. What don't you understand about that? If you own your home and you need care-- they will get their payments from you, even if it is in the form of taking your home!

You CAN afford it. I didn't say easily. I didn't say you can keep your home. If you own a home though-- you DO have means to pay for your doctor.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:08 AM

Alrighty then. Maybe Timothy Leary might understand that way of thinking. I swear I don't.

Yllas, yes. They will take everything you own. I never denied that.

But if you don't have it, YOU DON'T HAVE IT. The government is ultimately who ends up paying for your medical care if you CAN'T afford it. I didn't say, "if you just don't want to pay it" or "you can't figure out how". If you literally have NO WAY to compensate-- then it doesn't matter.

I'm going to assume we're all talking about public hospitals, not private. Public hospitals that are paid for BY the government. Hence, if you can't pay, the government foots your bill.

For the call!!!

Posted by: yllas at March 9, 2009 1:09 AM

Good grief.

Josephine: "Oliver, I love your knowledge of me-- but I also find it kind of sad. :)

I have blonde hair, blue eyes, and an awesome tan-- if you're running out of things to talk to people about me! I played volleyball and am in gymnastics."

I dont understand where this stems from. I only remember what you say about yourself. I usually dont forget details.

Josephine: "Oliver-- you tell me, please-- where did you assume the money came from when a patient can't cover their medical bills? PLEASE let me know. Say a man without insurance has a heart attack. Doesn't own a home, doesn't own a car, and can't go back to work--- PLEASE explain to me how you thought his hospital bills get paid for?"

Did you mean that aimed at Glynn? I wasnt arguing over this I dont think. I actually conceded this point earlier. I also thought the Government covered these costs. However, according to Glynn, this is not the case. It wouldnt be the first time you claimed something without any actual support though. Im personally on the fence. I do know that collections agencies are STILL trying to collect some bills that my wife picked up when we were in college before we had insurance to cover pregnancy. So again, who knows?

Yllas, yes. They will take everything you own. I never denied that.

But if you don't have it, YOU DON'T HAVE IT. The government is ultimately who ends up paying for your medical care if you CAN'T afford it. I didn't say, "if you just don't want to pay it" or "you can't figure out how". If you literally have NO WAY to compensate-- then it doesn't matter.

I'm going to assume we're all talking about public hospitals, not private. Public hospitals that are paid for BY the government. Hence, if you can't pay, the government foots your bill.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:12 AM

Okay, I am going to disagree with you again, which is probably going to get me another answer I will not be able to comprehend, but public hospitals get government grants for certain things. They are not paid for by the government. Please define what public hospitals you are speaking of? County? VA? Or just the every day run of the mill public hospital like the ones we have here.

Josephine: "Oliver-- the article says "over 1,000" not "around 1,000". "

Most of the time when anyone says "over x" they mean "barely over x." In other words, whats the purpose of saying "The average rent is over 1 dollar!" Correct me if Im wrong.

Josephine: "I'm going to assume we're all talking about public hospitals, not private. Public hospitals that are paid for BY the government. Hence, if you can't pay, the government foots your bill. "

Although I dont directly believe the "hence" necessarily follows, even if so, what are the costs on government run hospitals for these kinds of cases? How many public hospitals are there in the nation and how much money do they lose from these uninsured and do they FOR SURE simply eat the bill?

I hope you arent arguing on what "seems" to be the case, or what "should" be the case, but on actual experience.

Regular public hospitals.

Yes. Hospitals get government grants. Which isn't really connected to what I said.

Glynn: "They are not paid for by the government."

Yeah, I was wondering on the veracity of that statement as well.

Did you mean that aimed at Glynn? I wasnt arguing over this I dont think. I actually conceded this point earlier. I also thought the Government covered these costs. However, according to Glynn, this is not the case. It wouldnt be the first time you claimed something without any actual support though. Im personally on the fence. I do know that collections agencies are STILL trying to collect some bills that my wife picked up when we were in college before we had insurance to cover pregnancy. So again, who knows?

Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 1:12 AM

Don't concede, Oliver. She is not correct. Most public hospitals obtain certain federal grants to help with funding. One such grant is the Hill-Burton act, whereby a hospital, in order to obtain the money, has to treat a certain number of patients per year gratis. It's a very small number, less than 1%. Many hospitals don't take government grants because of the strict guidelines involved. However, I am not aware of hospitals (except in Illinois it appears) that turn over unpaid medical bills to the government to pay unless the patient was on Medicaid and then Medicaid would pay it. Usually the hospital will send several bills and then it is turned over to collections, whereby you either pay or you don't, and it has nothing to do with whether you own a home or not.

Glynn, you were right. You got another evasive response.

Josephine, she is asking what is the definiton of a "government paid for" hospital. Are these hospitals at all private or do 100% of the funds for these hospitals come from the government? Thats what I wanted to know anyways.

Regular public hospitals.

Which isn't really connected to what I said.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:18 AM

No truer words were ever spoken.

Oliver-- I am arguing on ACTUAL experience. I don't know if you want REAL numbers-- but that would be different for each person.

A doctor (at least at my hospital in Chicago) isn't on salary. They take time seeing X amounts of patients. If they see patients without insurance, they are STILL getting paid to see the same amount of patients, but the hospital isn't getting money from some of those patients. The doctor still gets paid. That money the doctor make comes from the government. The cost of what was done-- that comes from the government too. It can't just NOT be paid for. It is injected back into the hospital by the government.

Again-- I NEVER said this is common. The only people I've ever heard of this happening to are people who don't have any assets-- not people that are just broke in their bank accounts.

I actually feel stupid now for not seeing how ridiculous Josephine's idea really is.

Both hospitals I work at, 100% of the funds come from the government. 100%.

Again-- I NEVER said this is common. The only people I've ever heard of this happening to are people who don't have any assets-- not people that are just broke in their bank accounts.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:24 AM

So these are staff physicians with no private practice, and I am assuming a county hospital fully funded by the state?

It isn't ridiculous. You realize in a hospital that is operated BY the government, paid for BY the government, that if you can't cover your bill the government, OBVIOUSLY, covers it?

You honestly have to be slow not to understand how that works.

But if you don't have it, YOU DON'T HAVE IT'

Yes you do, you have accuired some assets and in one day........it's wiped out.

Then again, your blonde.

Here ya go;

Person is in the ER for a serious carwreck and spends weeks in a public hospital, even though they are insured. The reason is that only public hospitals take on those injuries.

Bill runs over 100k(capped normal auto liabilty) and the fellow citizens(greedy govermen docs) allow their collection agency to go after any and ALL assets.

Said person, after much suffering is awarded treble damges for $50k.

Insurance money for injury is tax free income...........but not for those greedy public servants....who then sieze any assets(including money" if you have not paided them at death or before.

Answer; as soon as you know your going to inccur some stupendous bill from those greedy docs/politicans....... give it away to your loved one's.

You have no idea little girl how people will always beat the greedy people at their own game.

Which is why your going to see a Depression.

I actually feel stupid now for not seeing how ridiculous Josephine's idea really is.

Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 1:26 AM
Someone said earlier that one of the prime reasons for bankruptcy was medical bills. If the government was absorbing these medical bills, then why the bankruptcy. It just doesn't happen. Now if you want to talk Medicaid, California is a prime example of nanny state politics that broke their back. But that's Medicaid. And I lived in California. They turn their bills over to collection there, too.

Josephine.

What does ATLS stand for?

It isn't ridiculous. You realize in a hospital that is operated BY the government, paid for BY the government, that if you can't cover your bill the government, OBVIOUSLY, covers it?

You honestly have to be slow not to understand how that works.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:27 AM

Seeing as how you have never defined a "government hospital" I think that is a pretty silly statement don't you?

Josephine: "Again-- I NEVER said this is common."

If isnt common, then why is it such a problem? You said that I am ALREADY paying for the uninsured.

I did a quick wikipedia on your public hospitals and it seems that even if the hospital IS public, the hospital doesnt just send the bills to the Government. The Government provides X amount of funds and when those funds dry up the hospital closes. This is why these hospitals are closing at a faster rate than for-profit/non-profit hospitals.

You have no idea little girl how people will always beat the greedy people at their own game.

Which is why your going to see a Depression.

Posted by: yllas at March 9, 2009 1:29 AM

Exactly

Most people that file for bankruptcy do so to protect their assets. They don't want to lose everything. These people that file for bankruptcy because of their medical bills are probably doing it to save their house-- because they don't want to lose it.

You really didn't prove anything by that, since I've already said if you own anything, you're going to have to pay your bills.

And when you say "you worked there" did you work in EVERY hospital? If not, then you really are no more authority than me or anyone else that has worked in only a couple.

So, in the situation I presented to Oliver-- please explain to me, how in the hospital you worked at in California, they'd get their money. Because I know they get it somehow.

Josephine: "You honestly have to be slow not to understand how that works."

No you are the slow one. Apparently, the funds are provided and thats that. When they run out, they run out, and otherwise they are apropriated anyways. Now I may be misunderstanding this article, and it IS wikipedia. Care to illuminate the obvious Josephine?

Josephine: "Because I know they get it somehow."

How do you know this?

Josephine: "Because I know they get it somehow."

How do you know this?

You really didn't prove anything by that, since I've already said if you own anything, you're going to have to pay your bills.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:35 AM

Are you really that naive? I am afraid I just have to say this. You are a loon. I tried to be patient but I never had such a convoluted argument with anyone in my life. Like I asked awhile back. Did you ever read Taming of the Shrew. You really should. It's your story.

Collection agencies don't care if you have money or a house or a pot to pee in. They want their money and they want it now. The government is not going to bail people out of their medical bills. We aren't paying for the uninsured. We are paying for those insured on Medicaid.

Oliver, where did I say we "send bills to the government".

You apparently think we seal all these up in an envelope and send them to the treasury. I NEVER said that.

My hospital in Chicago has been given a RIDICULOUS amount of govertment money. It's not going to run out, they aren't going to let us close-- you can't let a hospital close that caters to SO many. When the funds run out they don't "run out". The government pumps MORE AND MORE money into our hospital. More tax money. Your money.

Josephine: "Because I know they get it somehow."

How do you know this?
Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 1:38 AM

Because I work in the emergency room, Oliver.

"Collection agencies don't care if you have money or a house or a pot to pee in. They want their money and they want it now. "

Are you that stupid? You think they can get money from you if you DON'T HAVE IT? Seriously. You are just showing how stupid Republicans have. "We're going to take this $100,000 from you. We don't care that you don't have $100,000 or own anything, or have any means of getting money."

Are you kidding me? I don't think I believe you've ever worked in a hospital.... maybe as a janitor.

"The government is not going to bail people out of their medical bills. "

They do it everyday.

Josephine: "They're bills get passed to the government."

Josephine: "Oliver, where did I say we "send bills to the government"."

Hmmmm

Josephine: "My hospital in Chicago has been given a RIDICULOUS amount of govertment money. It's not going to run out, they aren't going to let us close-- you can't let a hospital close that caters to SO many. When the funds run out they don't "run out". The government pumps MORE AND MORE money into our hospital. More tax money. Your money. "

Okay, care to explain why public hospitals are closing at a faster rate than non-profit/for-profit hospitals?

Heck, care to explain why they are even closing if apparently the funds dont run out?

Oliver, where did I say we "send bills to the government".

You apparently think we seal all these up in an envelope and send them to the treasury. I NEVER said that.

My hospital in Chicago has been given a RIDICULOUS amount of govertment money. It's not going to run out, they aren't going to let us close-- you can't let a hospital close that caters to SO many. When the funds run out they don't "run out". The government pumps MORE AND MORE money into our hospital. More tax money. Your money.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:40 AM

So now we have gone from the generalized they to the personalized we. So we have narrowed down that only your hospital is doing this. As a nurse, how are you privvy to this information?

You never answered about staff physicians, etc.

I did a quick wikipedia on your public hospitals and it seems that even if the hospital IS public, the hospital doesnt just send the bills to the Government. The Government provides X amount of funds and when those funds dry up the hospital closes. This is why these hospitals are closing at a faster rate than for-profit/non-profit hospitals.

Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 1:33 AM

Correcto.

And every county/university system is always going broke and hiking taxes on their citizens via property.

How Ghetto's increase.

Said homeowner is blown out by those public hospital bills", which Josephine keeps thinking are free, said homeowner realizes that mo money may be had(tax free of course) by renting his home to crack dealers, and allow the greedy government to take what is left.

Works like a charm.

Besides, after being a model citizen for years, and paying those county hospital taxes for years, those same citizens want to take his only possession in life.

Crack house it.

See Josephine, greedy people force non greedy people to play their game eventually.

Your going to life in a Depression little girl.

Ask your daddy, who served in WW2, what the Depression did to him........ Why he might have been one of the greedy one's to come out of being poor and say "As God is my witness, I'll never be poor again".

But, frankly my Josephine, I don't give a damn, you have no idea what's coming.

Josephine: "Because I know they get it somehow."

How do you know this?
Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 1:38 AM

Because I work in the emergency room, Oliver.

"Collection agencies don't care if you have money or a house or a pot to pee in. They want their money and they want it now. "

Are you that stupid? You think they can get money from you if you DON'T HAVE IT? Seriously. You are just showing how stupid Republicans have. "We're going to take this $100,000 from you. We don't care that you don't have $100,000 or own anything, or have any means of getting money."

Are you kidding me? I don't think I believe you've ever worked in a hospital.... maybe as a janitor.

"The government is not going to bail people out of their medical bills. "

They do it everyday.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:44 AM

You know what Josephine, does the term proctalgia fugax mean anything to you. Because that's what you are. Because you work in the emergency room (very few LPN/LVN I know work in the ER, but never mind), you know all the workings of the hospital financially. Well, what a gal! As far as not believing me, I'll challenge you to a medical aptitude test any time any where. Just say when.

Oliver, things getting passed to the government isn't the same as just sending bills, literally, to the treasury. You do understand, right? I mean, don't you grade tests that involve reading in context and what not?

"Okay, care to explain why public hospitals are closing at a faster rate than non-profit/for-profit hospitals?

Heck, care to explain why they are even closing if apparently the funds dont run out?"

No. I'm not an expert on hospitals. Neither are you. Neither of us know why. I'd assume that since the hospital I work at in Chicago is such a giant hospital that helps so many, it's really not a good idea to let it close. I'm just guessing though.

I'm privy because my dad is a big wig at my hospital in Chicago, Glynn. He is on their board. And it is not "ONLY" my hospital. It runs how ANY hospital funded by the government runs. It follows the same rules. Guidelines.

Which is why your going to see a Depression.

Posted by: yllas at March 9, 2009 1:29 AM

Exactly

Posted by: Glynn at March 9, 2009 1:34 AM

Thank ya, thank ya very much.

As I replied to Bobby Bambino, I tip my tin foil hat and give a wave of my black cape to ya!!!

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:50 AM

Sigh.

Josephine: "Because I work in the emergency room, Oliver."

As an LPN. How do you know what the hospitals in California or doing for their MDs? Im actually amazed that you are clued in on the deep inner financial workings at your own hospital working at your position for so short of a period.

Josephine: "Are you that stupid? You think they can get money from you if you DON'T HAVE IT? Seriously. You are just showing how stupid Republicans have. "We're going to take this $100,000 from you. We don't care that you don't have $100,000 or own anything, or have any means of getting money.""

Since when are Republicans taking peoples money? I think youre confused about the way our two major political parties work. The Republicans want to LOWER taxes.

By the way, most people have money and means of getting money, even the uninsured. Collection agencies also will often take whatever they can get. How does VISA survive? Or Mastercard? Or the cable company? Do they "get" their money?

Josephine: "Are you kidding me? I don't think I believe you've ever worked in a hospital.... maybe as a janitor."

Seems its okay to insult Janitors. Well lets use some logic here. You are an LPN claiming to have knowledge of the financial sector of your hospital. Seems to me that a janitor actually has just as much right to this knowledge as you, and would be just as likely to know what they are talking about from the financial point of view.

"Ask your daddy, who served in WW2, what the Depression did to him........ Why he might have been one of the greedy one's to come out of being poor and say "As God is my witness, I'll never be poor again". "

Errr... my dad is in his forties. He did NOT serve in WW2. WHAT are you talking about!?

Glynn, as Oliver has so kindly pointed out-- and I just mentioned-- I am just an LPN currently-- but my dad is a doctor at the hospital and on the board, and owns a private practice. I DO hear a lot about the inner workings of the hospital AT HOME. Before I got my first degree, I was his assistant.

" Im actually amazed that you are clued in on the deep inner financial workings at your own hospital working at your position for so short of a period."

For someone who just "pays attention to details" and that's why you remember so much-- you don't seem to remember that I've worked at the hospital in Chicago since I started as my dad's assistant at fifteen, as a CNA, then as an LPN.... I've been there for five years.

Oliver, HOW was I insulting janitors? PLEASE-- tell me what I said that was derroggatory to a janitor. If you thought by saying maybe he worked as one was an INSULT, then you are, apparently, the one who thinks lowly of janitors..

"By the way, most people have money and means of getting money, even the uninsured. Collection agencies also will often take whatever they can get. How does VISA survive? Or Mastercard? Or the cable company? Do they "get" their money?"

They DON'T get their money from everyone. If EVERYONE paid, rates wouldn't be so high. They wouldn't have to be. Haven't you noticed your interest rates go crazy? My Mastercard interest rate just went from 10% to 18% a couple months ago. 8%! They will try their damndest to get money from people that owe it-- that doesn't mean they will always succeed.

Josephine: "Oliver, things getting passed to the government isn't the same as just sending bills, literally, to the treasury."

And sending bills to the Government isnt the same as doing it literally either. I could interpret your original words as literal statements. Besides, I was speaking it with tongue in cheek.

Josephine: "No. I'm not an expert on hospitals. Neither are you. Neither of us know why. I'd assume that since the hospital I work at in Chicago is such a giant hospital that helps so many, it's really not a good idea to let it close. I'm just guessing though."

Just guessing? Assume? Not quite as firm of a stance as you took earlier.

Original Josephine: "It's not going to run out, they aren't going to let us close"

I think I like Josephine 2.0. She doesnt think she knows everything just because she is an LPN and her dad is a "big wig."

I wonder if your dad would support you using his reputation to drive your point. What exactly has your dad let you in on? He specifically told you that the government will pay these doctors no matter what?

Im also interested in exactly how many people are served this way. You claimed earlier that I am ALREADY paying for the uninsured to go get care, so we should just go ahead and start up a socialist healthcare system. I want to see the numbers backing this statement.

I'm privy because my dad is a big wig at my hospital in Chicago, Glynn. He is on their board. And it is not "ONLY" my hospital. It runs how ANY hospital funded by the government runs. It follows the same rules. Guidelines.

Oliver, HOW was I insulting janitors? PLEASE-- tell me what I said that was derroggatory to a janitor. If you thought by saying maybe he worked as one was an INSULT, then you are, apparently, the one who thinks lowly of janitors..

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:57 AM

No, you were insulting janitors, and I am a she, not a he. I have worked in hospitals around the world longer than you have been alive. Not as a janitor, though it is a worthy profession.

Josephine.

You aren't understanding one word of the "economics" of public financing at the local hospital taxing authority level.

Normal people are trying to get you to see how paying for "free health care works".

Read and open your mind.

Are you really this closed minded Josephine?

Is it privledge, which is causing this inabilty to have common citizens explain the economics of healthcare to you?

Errr... my dad is in his forties. He did NOT serve in WW2. WHAT are you talking about!?

Must be another person who mentioned their "father" was a paratooper who was injured by a tree.

Hey, you mean your grandfather then, Josephine?

My bad then.

Josephine: "Oliver, HOW was I insulting janitors? PLEASE-- tell me what I said that was derroggatory to a janitor. If you thought by saying maybe he worked as one was an INSULT, then you are, apparently, the one who thinks lowly of janitors.. "

Dont try this bullshit on me Josephine. You said...

"Are you kidding me? I don't think I believe you've ever worked in a hospital.... maybe as a janitor. "

Now the insult was that you challenged her knowledge and then claimed she didnt work in a hospital. You then said it would be only reasonable that she could be a janitor. The insult is that he was too uninformed to do anything in a hospital except to work as a janitor. Of course, you know this, but you dont want to admit the insult.

Josephine: "For someone who just "pays attention to details" and that's why you remember so much-- you don't seem to remember that I've worked at the hospital in Chicago since I started as my dad's assistant at fifteen, as a CNA, then as an LPN.... I've been there for five years. "

I dont remember every detail, although Im pretty sure you never pointed out before that you worked with your dad as an assistant at the age of 15. I know now I guess.

Again, I wonder what your dad would have to say to your use of his reputation here. Probably the same thing as your use of your proffesors reputation in the last thread you argued an unsupported point.

Oliver-- I'm not an expert on WHY our hospital won't close. Never claimed to be. Our hospital serves the VERY poor. The government ISN'T going to let us close. The statements you compared were about different things.

"He specifically told you that the government will pay these doctors no matter what?"

Yes. Actually. It's a conversation we've had SEVERAL times. It's part of the reason he wishes it was just universal healthcare. :)

Glynn, why was I insulting janitors? Please, tell me what I said and how it was insulting to janitors. :) IF you assumed it was an insult to janitors, it's because you would be insulted to be called a janitor. I used janitor because they're the only people in the hospital absolutely 100% unconnected to the medical aspect AND billing aspects. I could have also said "gift shop attendant".

As for Oliver, my dad would love me bragging on him. I hurt his feelings by not going to his college because he wanted me to be able to ride on his coattails, actually. He's a pretty big deal, and an AMAZING source of information to me. He's like having my person medical textbook, and I have no problem with that, and neither does he.

Oliver, I told you to CALL MY SCHOOL. I obviously didn't care. And as for "using my professors reputation"... uhm, I didn't. I have about 6 professors, and I never gave you a name. That's why I SPECIFICALLY said you should call the head of my univeristy's biology department, which, you apparently didn't feel like. Not my problem, because I didn't care if you did. :)

Also, I do think you should watch your language. I'd hate to see your post get deleted for having a potty mouth.

Glynn, why was I insulting janitors? Please, tell me what I said and how it was insulting to janitors. :) IF you assumed it was an insult to janitors, it's because you would be insulted to be called a janitor. I used janitor because they're the only people in the hospital absolutely 100% unconnected to the medical aspect AND billing aspects. I could have also said "gift shop attendant".

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 2:09 AM

What are some of the janitor's names where you work?

Josephine: "IF you assumed it was an insult to janitors, it's because you would be insulted to be called a janitor. I used janitor because they're the only people in the hospital absolutely 100% unconnected to the medical aspect AND billing aspects. I could have also said "gift shop attendant"

Come off it Josephine. You are showing your maturity level. You said in a derogatory context, period. You may not have meant it, and probably meant it as some kind of childish insult, but please, dont make crap up.

Josephine: "Oliver-- I'm not an expert on WHY our hospital won't close. Never claimed to be. Our hospital serves the VERY poor. The government ISN'T going to let us close. The statements you compared were about different things."

Okay, explain to me why the government doesnt let you close, yet closes hospitals all the time because of a lack of funding? Regardless, what does it matter? The idea if the general United States system. As it is, the Government IS closing these kinds of hospitals, and they ARE running out of funds. So back to the whole point in hand, the Government does NOT just pay for these uninsured no matter what.

Josephine: "As for Oliver, my dad would love me bragging on him."

I guess you misunderstood what I said. I wasnt referencing you bragging on him but that you are claiming statements only backed by a reference to his authority. As it stands, Im not impressed. Id like to see some studies or numbers. Im honestly tired of your "No, seriously, I REALLY know" argument. Especially after the last time you tried to argue that activation occurs after implantation AND/OR BC stops activation after fertilization.

Josephine: "Oliver, I told you to CALL MY SCHOOL. I obviously didn't care. And as for "using my professors reputation"... uhm, I didn't. I have about 6 professors, and I never gave you a name. That's why I SPECIFICALLY said you should call the head of my univeristy's biology department, which, you apparently didn't feel like. Not my problem, because I didn't care if you did. :)

Also, I do think you should watch your language. I'd hate to see your post get deleted for having a potty mouth."

You think I honestly care? I hope I do have some posts deleted, if not just to rub it in the face of the pro-choicers who whine about pro-life posts never being deleted.

By the way, I never called your proffesor because we could not figure out what you were trying to argue. I actually found the original thread and you contradicted yourself repeatedly. I asked you what your stance was so I could question him but left the thread never to return after getting called on your insults to nurses. Hmm, insulting janitors and nurses. Seems to be a pattern.

So anyways, what is your stance on hormonal birth control and activation in terms of fertilization and implantation again?

"Come off it Josephine. You are showing your maturity level. You said in a derogatory context, period. You may not have meant it, and probably meant it as some kind of childish insult, but please, dont make crap up."

Oliver, you're wrong. So you should probably shut up about it. You are wrong, PERIOD. :)

"Okay, explain to me why the government doesnt let you close, yet closes hospitals all the time because of a lack of funding?"

I guess you can't read, or maybe you only do so selectively -- I'll restate what I already said. "I'm not an expert. I'm guessing it's because we're in a HUGE city and we have SO MANY patients. They really can't let us close, they have to just give us money."

I'm fairly certain I haven't seen YOUR backup of where the money comes from, since you apparently don't believe it comes from the government. I asked an example question several times, and you ignored it. :)

Oh, as for medical talk-- I prefer to have those with people that know what the words mean-- not those who GOOGLE things and think they understand. :)

" but [YOU] left the thread "

I wonder if your dad would support you using his reputation to drive your point. What exactly has your dad let you in on? He specifically told you that the government will pay these doctors no matter what?

posted by Oliver.

Why the local hospital gets mo money when a local citzen doesn't pony up for that free healthcare from the FEDS. I need more money Feds. You got it Chicago.

Meanwhile, the local hospital district, collecting millions from those citizens for years, while failing to report those collections to the feds.

Greed, and more greed, from the local to national levels abound in a steady beat until something has to give.

That "give" is answered by being as greedy and smart as those greedy public servants.

Answer; assets must be transfered to off shore accounts.
Whoops, too late.

Answer; Offer a socialist nation,such as Cuba to insure your assets in their bank/financial system.

Socialism never goes broke..........officially.

Oliver--- I'm a nurse. Are you kidding me.

You're probably the most ridiculous person I've ever heard of. I'm still here because it's HILARIOUS.

Now, because I left that thread to go to bed (really, you should look at the times that was going on) I guess I have to tell you goodnight, so you don't assume I'm leaving to not talk to you. I didn't realize you had to say "bye" on message boards.

It is, however 2a.m. and I'm keeping my beau up and I have a spin class at 7a.m. So I really should've gone to bed hours ago. It's just been too funny!

Socialism never goes broke..........officially.

Posted by: yllas at March 9, 2009 2:21 AM

Just like people under socialism don't just disappear without a trace.......officially.

All for the common good, huh my friend? This concept seems to be beyond the comprehension of a certain person here.

Josephine: "I guess you can't read, or maybe you only do so selectively -- I'll restate what I already said. "I'm not an expert. I'm guessing it's because we're in a HUGE city and we have SO MANY patients. They really can't let us close, they have to just give us money." "

If you dont know why they cant close you, what makes you think that they cant? Thats my point. You have no idea.

Josephine: "I'm fairly certain I haven't seen YOUR backup of where the money comes from, since you apparently don't believe it comes from the government. I asked an example question several times, and you ignored it. :)"

My backup? I dont know where it comes from, I just dont think you can necessarily claim that the money is there indefinitely. Thats my point. You could also argue that the money comes from nowhere and the hospitals dont collect.

Josephine: "Oh, as for medical talk-- I prefer to have those with people that know what the words mean-- not those who GOOGLE things and think they understand. :)"

See, last time I checked I referenced Gray's Anatomy and one of my wife's Bio text books. Of course, Im sure that wasnt meant as an insult right! People who use GOOGLE are great people after all!

I find it ironic that you only discuss with people who understand biology, yet you openly contradicted yourself in that thread and the thread before it.

Regardless, now that Im "smart" enough for you, care to not deflect and explain your position on implantation, activation and where hormonal BC sits in all this?

I find it ironic that you only discuss with people who understand biology, yet you openly contradicted yourself in that thread and the thread before it.

Regardless, now that Im "smart" enough for you, care to not deflect and explain your position on implantation, activation and where hormonal BC sits in all this?

Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 2:25 AM

I've noticed Josephine is quite good at sidestepping issues and direct questions. She's done it repeatedly in this thread.

I am saying goodnight. It was nice speaking with you Oliver and yllas. Can't say the same for poor old Josie.

Anyone else notice how Josephine magically disappeared only when I asked her about that oh so controversial point of when activation occurs?

Notice that at first she tried to deflect it by claiming that she only dicusses with the really well learned, and not those who do Google searches.

Also noticed that she commented on my "potty mouth" and then called me a jackass, and tried to pretend like she only posted this long because it was funny.

God I hope this isnt the face of our coming healthcare.

On another note, it was good talking to/with you Glynn. Dont be a stranger. We need more like you.

Come on Josephine,

You work in the ER and will not answer a simple question concerning the abbreveation of what ATLS is.

Let's see, daddy is a big wig and everyone knows your gettin by on daddies dime.

Why, once their were two twin daughters of a doctor, who were going through med school, and everyone praised them to their face.

They ended up being sued silly when they tryed to practice solo, and independent of that totally immune "public hospital."

You must have no curiosity about those you work with, or they really are sucking up to ya Josepfine.

--- I'll be back tomorrow. :) Just don't forget your questions.

BTW, I'd already used inappropriate words long before in this thread. I just didn't want you to get your post deleted. It's okay though-- you're trying to be a martyr. How brave of you. An internet blog martyr.

I didn't say I was ONLY here because it was funny... but if it wasn't funny, I definitely wouldn't have stuck around. Stupid people are funny to me, that's all. :)

Yllas: "You must have no curiosity about those you work with, or they really are sucking up to ya Josepfine."

I dont think she actually works that much in a hospital. She said she splits her time with a doctor's office, which I suppose we can guess is her dad's.

But whatever.

Glynn,

You'll notice that of many of the pro-choicers here. Hal, Asitis, Yo La Tengo, Jess (if she ever returns dear god), so on and so forth. A word of advice, if you come back and post more in the future, dont respect Cameron, should he ever return. He is a paper tiger, and nothing more. He overpowers with rhetoric.

Also I think Yllas may be a crazy person. ;)

Josephine: I'll be back tomorrow. :) Just don't forget your questions."

Its actually pretty easy. You could have answered the question in the time it took you to deflect the question and then come back and post this. I think I could answer the question for your in fewer than 15 words actually.

I am saying goodnight. It was nice speaking with you Oliver and yllas. Can't say the same for poor old Josie.

Posted by: Glynn at March 9, 2009 2:29 AM

Come back, ya hear Glynn, and thank ya. thank ya, very very much.

On another note, it was good talking to/with you Glynn. Dont be a stranger. We need more like you.

Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 2:30 AM

But, But, what about me Oliver?

Can't you give me, a tip-o-your-hat to your most faithful, boneheaded poster, who really does find you quite Spockish!!! In a admirable way, of course.

I dont know who or what you are Yllas, to be honest. But to be fair, the "tip" was to Glynn because she is new. Goodnight

Goodnight Oliver.

Stay Calm Oliver, "God is with us all this day".

Father Capodanno, MOH.

Joesphine: "Oliver, what's an LVN? I've never heard of it."

Real classy pointing out a typo Josephine! Did you learn that in all your years of experience?

Joesphine: "By the way, it's so nice of you to say those great things about me. Have fun grading tests of students that are going to grow up and have great careers!! :)"

Im not sure I get the jist of this comment. I dont grade my student's tests, and besides what is wrong with helping people achieve their careers anyways? I think I missed the insult here.

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 9:48 PM

REALLY? You've really never heard the initials LVN? They stand for Licensed Vocational Nurse. In some states, they are called LPNs, Licensed Practical Nurses... aka, exactly what you claim to be.

I've never heard of an LPN who didn't know that in some states they are called LVNs.

Joesphine: "Oliver, what's an LVN? I've never heard of it."

Real classy pointing out a typo Josephine! Did you learn that in all your years of experience?

Joesphine: "By the way, it's so nice of you to say those great things about me. Have fun grading tests of students that are going to grow up and have great careers!! :)"

Im not sure I get the jist of this comment. I dont grade my student's tests, and besides what is wrong with helping people achieve their careers anyways? I think I missed the insult here.

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 9:48 PM

REALLY? You've really never heard the initials LVN? They stand for Licensed Vocational Nurse. In some states, they are called LPNs, Licensed Practical Nurses... aka, exactly what you claim to be.

I've never heard of an LPN who didn't know that in some states they are called LVNs.

Well, if you can pay for it. If you're having to go to bad doctors because you can't afford anything else, it could be pretty difficult for you to find a means to sue or press charges against those bad doctors for malpractice.

Posted by: Josephine at March 8, 2009 10:40 PM

I work at an inner-city county hospital. Our patients can't afford much of anything in life. They have access to some of the finest physicians around... I am very, very proud to work with the physicians in our hospital. There is nothing second-rate about the care we deliver. Insinuating that poor people get second-rate doctors is highly demeaning to the doctors I know who work here because they truly care about making a difference in the lives of their patients.

As for neuro surgeons, you do realize I said we have people to run TESTS right? Surgeons and people that run tests are VERY DIFFERENT PEOPLE. I'm not sure I've ever been to a hospital with it's own person neuro ssurgeon, since they're so few and far between.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 12:12 AM

Wow... what kind of crap hospital do YOU work for?? (Glad to see our poverty-stricken "second class citizenry" here get better care than you are apparently familiar with.)

You know what Josephine, does the term proctalgia fugax mean anything to you. Because that's what you are. Because you work in the emergency room (very few LPN/LVN I know work in the ER, but never mind), you know all the workings of the hospital financially. Well, what a gal! As far as not believing me, I'll challenge you to a medical aptitude test any time any where. Just say when.

Posted by: Glynn at March 9, 2009 1:49 AM

My money is on Glynn (I'm an ER and floor Peds nurse)

I mean, c'mon. By the way, as for "years of residency"... it only takes about a year longer (if you're a good worker) to become a surgeon if you had known that you were going to be a surgeon. You work on your specialty as an intern. If she were a surgeon in Canada, sure, maybe it'd take her a YEAR... big deal.

Posted by: Josephine at March 8, 2009 9:42 PM

She had to do two years residency here just to be a GP. And "a year longer" is a big deal when you have two little children. Not that you know that or even care. Can you please get a clue?

(PS. That was rhetorical.)

Oh, and as for "decent"... I'm going to guess you haven't been to Chicago, because "decent" means SAFE in the city. :) I don't know about you-- I wouldn't live in the ghetto.

Posted by: Josephine at March 8, 2009 11:33 PM

PLEASE! My brother just moved into an awesome apartment with granite counters, beautiful trim work, huge rooms and a view of the lake in LINCOLN PARK for $1500.00.

Where do you people get all this free time?

:)

I think that asitis actually stumbled upon a valid point in this thread. Yes, she should have admitted once it was pointed out that it was about what Americans vs. Canadians actually paid. I am not surprised that she did not. However, Oliver, your assumption is that you pay only what shows up on your paycheck. In reality, the money your employer pays is money that the employees aren't receiving, and I'm certain we all pay for some health care in our taxes. It's a legitimate point that health care is more than what one pays out of one's paycheck. Of course, there are a lot of other factors too: elective procedures, some of which are covered by insurance, some of which are not, which might or might not be covered under a socialist system and are available now even if not covered: vasectomy reversals, facelifts, etc; more cities in the US; different population groups.

I don't like universal health care, in part because I am sure costs will be increased and in part because I am sure that taxpayers will be forced to pay for things that they find immoral. Of course, insurance plan holders are forced to pay for procedures they find immoral now. I really think that the best solution is for people to cover their own health care, insurance plans to be private and there to be more choice (I think health insurance is necessary, because you do never know when you will be hit with an ailment/accident that could break you and your family), and I think the poor could be covered by charity. I think that private charity is the solution to many government "solutions" that have failed (public schools, welfare, etc.).

As a resident of Massachusetts, I can't endorse what's already costing taxpayers far more than expected here.

And by the way, I've lived in an apartment that Josephine probably wouldn't consider "decent." It was a basment with 2 rooms--the bathroom and everything else. There was a bedroom "nook" and a kitchen "nook." When it rained hard there was an inch of water on the floor in some places. Everything that wasn't in tupperware grew mold--not just food, but boxes, backpacks, anything with organic or organic-like components. The first time I took a shower there I found a four-inch slug in there (an organism, not a bullet). I thought it was safe, but it was broken into once. I was at home, so nothing was stolen, and he ran away (after saying "Oh, f---, I'm sorry"), but I was very shaken. There was not much light, because it was a basement. And none of that was as bad as the upstairs neighbors, the second year, who played loud music late into the night, and sometimes practiced some sort of guitar at 3 in the morning. That was what drove us out before we really had another place to live (we stayed with our in-laws until construction on our new house was finished). We did have a great landlord (lock fixed same day after break-in, parts ordered immediately when washer broke). The location was good for us, and utilities were free (and I kept the heat at least five degrees higher then than now that I pay for it... hmmm). I know what it's like to have an hour commute for a minimum wage job (fifty minutes on a bus, forty-five to an hour walking, 10 driving) and an hour and a half commute when I lived with my parents in a suburb (twenty to thirty minutes driving). I know what it's like to go shopping and be limited in my purchases by the size of my backpack.

Guess what? None of that killed me. And we weren't even from poor families where we grew up in apartments; we are both from very middle-class families. It was livable. It didn't really cause me stress (though the music did for my husband). Would I want to live there all my life? No. But we saved money to get out (we also had some help from family--my father-in-law gave us land to build on--but it just would have taken us longer otherwise, or we would have had something smaller) and I believe most people could.

I think that asitis actually stumbled upon a valid point in this thread. Yes, she should have admitted once it was pointed out that it was about what Americans vs. Canadians actually paid

Posted by: YCW at March 9, 2009 10:29 AM

Thanks for that YCW. I appreciate that.

But just to be clear: I was talking about the total cost of health care per person in Canada vs the U.S. from the get-go. The $5000 cited that is paid through taxes per family of four in Canada IS the cost of the health care and I was using the corresponding U.S. average $15,609 which is paid through premiums borne by individuals and , if you are fortunate, the employer. The difference between the cost of providing health care in the U.S. vs canada is significant.

I was not "skewing numbers". I did not have an "agenda". I did not have to "admit" to anything.

Asitis: "I was talking about the total cost of health care per person in Canada vs the U.S. from the get-go"

Of course you were, but nobody else was, including the article. That is what YCW is talking about. You know, Ive never seen you admit when you are wrong here Asitis. Is it so hard for you, or do you just like arguing to argue?

You consistently demonstrate that the only thing you have to hold onto is your false confidence in yourself. Maybe you cant ever admit that you are wrong, even when it is so plain, because if you admit you are EVER wrong, youd open the floodgate to all of the times you are mistaken or confused. Pathetic.

YCW,

You are right, I admit, to point out that the coverage of the employer does to a degree take from the pockets of the employees. Now, this isnt always the case, as in my current employment, and I dont think that 100% of the money the employer would save from cutting health benefits would translate into the pockets of the employees either, but it does somewhat affect the overall payment to the employee.

The point is still that, even with that consideration, the healthcare costs to the average American citizen are roughly equal to those of the average Canadian, but the quality and scope of care is far superior. Id much rather have my care limited by my own hardwork and savings than by the status of my health, my age, or my location.

Elisabeth-- have you ever been to a free clinic? Don't you dare tell me those people get good care. :) You do realize how COMPETITVE being a doctor is? The doctors that aren't the best get the jobs that aren't the best. Having more money gets you better care, and that's how it works in America. I see people get turned away from the practice every time I work because their insurance isn't good enough and they can't afford us otherwise.

"PLEASE! My brother just moved into an awesome apartment with granite counters, beautiful trim work, huge rooms and a view of the lake in LINCOLN PARK for $1500.00.
Posted by: Kristen at March 9, 2009 8:03 AM

Then your brother got an amazing deal, as you can tell since the FACTS are that a COMPLETELY avg. apartment costs OVER $1,000. You really can't ignore that, it's a fact. Also, I'm not entirely sure why you said LINCOLN PARK... it's not like Central Park is to NYC. It's just an area.

BTW-- good job on figuring out what rhetorical means. If, as you claim, the salary was dramatically different, it seems a little selfish not to spend the extra year. Especially since residents spend about the same amount of time as doctors working... And, you're right. I don't care. But I sure as hell don't feel sorry for someone because they have to be "just a GP" because they didn't want to wait another year.

Josephine: "Then your brother got an amazing deal, as you can tell since the FACTS are that a COMPLETELY avg. apartment costs OVER $1,000. You really can't ignore that, it's a fact. Also, I'm not entirely sure why you said LINCOLN PARK... it's not like Central Park is to NYC. It's just an area."

Okay, name your suburb Josephine. Ill find an apartment with crime statistics that are acceptable for cheap. They are out there, you just dont like to ever admit when you are wrong.

Oh while you are here Josephine....

What am I supposed to ask your proffesor? What do you think BC does in regards to activation and implantation etc?

Asitis: "I was talking about the total cost of health care per person in Canada vs the U.S. from the get-go"

Oliver: Of course you were, but nobody else was, including the article. That is what YCW is talking about. You know, Ive never seen you admit when you are wrong here Asitis. Is it so hard for you, or do you just like arguing to argue?

You consistently demonstrate that the only thing you have to hold onto is your false confidence in yourself. Maybe you cant ever admit that you are wrong, even when it is so plain, because if you admit you are EVER wrong, youd open the floodgate to all of the times you are mistaken or confused. Pathetic.

Oliver, we were over this last night. Let me refresh your memory:

Where in the article do you see what it "costs" in general versus what it "costs" to the average tax paying citizen? Ive quoted the article I think 3 times now. When are you going to actually read and pay attention? You are only furthering the appearance of your own idiocy. You are comparing apples to oranges Asitis. Why do you argue just to argue? Why can you never admit when you are wrong, even when you are so wrong as you are here?

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 11:11 PM

"First of all, socialized medicine, although of poor quality, is very expensive".

"It costs $1,200 per year in taxes for each Quebec citizen to have access to the public health system."

There you go Oliver. Stop being rude.

Posted by: asitis at March 8, 2009 11:16 PM

No read his article. His point is that it is not "free" in that the citizens pay for the insurance. Look back at what the article is saying here. I teach Reading Comprehension for a living Asitis, you may need a few pointers.

And you wonder why people claim that you are illogical! You apparently cant even interpret a simple article without skewing to your own personal agenda. I like what Glynn claimed, that you rely on emotions and not reason.

Posted by: Oliver at March 8, 2009 11:11 PM

Wow Oliver. You really are an angry man. So insulting. Yes, he is saying it isn't "free". But isn't that obvious? Of course anything the governemnet funds is paid for through taxes. And who pays those taxes? We do. It goes without saying that it isn't free.

But he is also saying it is expensive. But the fact is, health care in Canada costs less than in the U.S.

Posted by: asitis at March 8, 2009 11:28 PM

"The part that says "this means" leads the first line to the second line. In other words, his first line is the premise to conclude that "the average two-child family PAYS."

Sure Oliver.... and in Canada, the total is paid for through taxes. So we are also talking about what the total cost is for that health care.

Can you really not comprehend this part?
Because I feel you are just wasting my time. And I have an early morning.

Posted by: asitis at March 8, 2009 11:32 PM

Oliver, it might be time for me to wish you good luck.

Posted by: Glynn at March 8, 2009 11:18 PM

So there you have it Oliver. I was never mistaken. I was never confused. The issue I was addressing, from the article, right from square one was the total cost of health care in the two countries.

Mistaken? Confused? Pathetic? Look in the mirror, babe! Still waiting for the apology, by the way.

"quality and scope of care is far superior".

For those that have coverage.

Romeoville, Jasper. Find a reasonable apartment in Romeoville-- it's a suburb close enough, so that on a train or bus, the commute would be under two hours, normally. It's about a twenty minute drive to the city.

I just wanted to chime in and ask what is so great about LINCOLN PARK? I was a victim of three crimes when I had an apt. there. I was mugged, my apt was robbed and my car was broken into. Yes, in LINCOLN PARK. Also, my rent was about the same as Kristen's friend. Though this was five years ago. And I can't say the trim work was beautiful, because I'm not sure I ever noticed it.

**Oliver, whoops. Not Jasper. You two just act so similar!

Then your brother got an amazing deal, as you can tell since the FACTS are that a COMPLETELY avg. apartment costs OVER $1,000. You really can't ignore that, it's a fact. Also, I'm not entirely sure why you said LINCOLN PARK... it's not like Central Park is to NYC. It's just an area.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 12:41 PM

No, he wanted to be in that area and that's what was available. He looked at two other places in the area and that's the one he liked best, the other two were cheaper but still in Lincoln Park. And if you can't figure out why I said LINCOLN PARK then I really question that you're even in Chicago since LP is probably the top area people try to get into, that and the Gold Coast.

BTW - I didn't say she was JUST a GP I said she had to do two years residency just to be a GP (in comparison to a surgeon - that's the "just" part, do you comprehend emphasis in English?) And yes, I'm SURE you think it's very selfish on her part to want more time with her children rather than another year of residency. You are completely morally bankrupt.

I think everyone knows the salary between a GP and a surgeon is "dramatically" different. In fact, Chicago Magazine just had top salaries as their cover story and the difference between a Pediatrician and Surgeon was over $100,000. That's pretty dramatic for most people.

Romeoville, Jasper. Find a reasonable apartment in Romeoville-- it's a suburb close enough, so that on a train or bus, the commute would be under two hours, normally. It's about a twenty minute drive to the city.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 12:53 PM

Now I REALLY don't think Josephine is from the City! Are you kidding? Romeoville? First, please don't move there b/c you'd be WAY to close to me. Second, if you think Romeoville is a 20 minute drive to the City you must be smoking something. The City isn't even a 20 minute drive to the City.

And if you're looking for "decent" (as in "safe" as you put it) why would you be looking in Romeoville? I could get you a HOUSE in Romeoville for less than $1000.00 a month.

Kristen, I lived in Chicago my whole life. Lincoln Park is NOT a big deal. It's not "hard" to get an apartment in Lincoln Park. You're just making things up! I LOOKED at an apartment in Lincoln Park that I TURNED DOWN. Seriously, it's nothing special. ...I'd kill for an apartment with a view of Millennium Park. That'd be a bit harder... Oprah's apartment has a view of Millennium Park.

Also, I said it takes the same amount of time. Residents don't spend more time working than doctors. If anything, they spend less. I don't know where you're going with that.

And, I believe I said the salary differences came with experience. By the way, $100,000-- not really that much money. Malpractice insurance costs more than $100,000.

PS - There are no trains to the City from Romeoville. It requires a bus/car ride to the nearest station. Maybe Naperville, Downers Grove, Joliet...depending.

I am not a fan of Romeoville, or the South Suburbs in general, but I think you'd be much less likely to be a victim of a crime there than in LINCOLN PARK.

Kristen, my sister lives in a 1.5mil. house in Romeoville. The apartment I looked at there was $2,700 a month. ... and you must drive like an old woman if it takes you more than twenty minutes to get there. :)

Kristen, I already said bus, actually... :)

And, Joliet? Are you kidding? That's the most disgusting city I've ever been in. I'd like to not get stabbed on my way to work.

Asitis: "So there you have it Oliver. I was never mistaken. I was never confused. The issue I was addressing, from the article, right from square one was the total cost of health care in the two countries.

Mistaken? Confused? Pathetic? Look in the mirror, babe! Still waiting for the apology, by the way. "

Hah! Youre serious. Asitis, there is a reason why I do what I do. I really shouldnt be shocked that I have to explain this....again. After all I am talking to you.

Here is the original article for referece.

"It costs $1,200 per year in taxes for each Quebec citizen to have access to the public health system. This means that the average two-child family pays close to $5,000 per year in public health insurance. "

The first sentence is talking about the cost of health insurance for each citizen. The second sentence then talks about what each citizen pays out of pocket via taxes. The connection between these sentences is evident in the phrase "this means." This is actually a typical argument structure so there are two ways to demonstrate what is going on in painstaking clarity. I am going to parse the argument into a conclusion and premise first and then Ill phrase the information in a causal relationship.

Premise: "It costs $1,200 per year in taxes for each Quebec citizen to have access to the public health system."

Conclusion:"average two-child family pays $5,000 per year in public health insurance."

Now the ultimate point the author was coming to from those two sentences is what the family pays. The previous sentence, working as a premise, is the SUPPORT for the final sentence. Again, how do we know this? Because of the phrase "this means."

It is important to know that when working an article that every sentence has a particular role. The important sentences can be called "claims" and the supporting sentences "evidence." It is a common mistake to be caught up with the evidence sentences and therefore completely misinterpret an article, as you have done so here. You have to remind yourself of the general structure of an essay to best understand the points presented. I think this is where you have dropped the ball, whether it be intentional or born from blind ignorance.

(If you want to go deeper we can analyze the assumption of the argument by identifying the change in terms from premise to conclusion, although this has nothing to do with our argument, considering we are not attacking or defending the veracity of this claim, but taking the claim and making an inference. The shift in language is from "costs" to "pays," hence your stubborn confusion. The author is assuming that the cost for each citizen is what each citizen pays.)

Now for the causal relationship....

Average citizen costs 1200 in taxes a year for HC --> Average family of 4 pays 5000 in taxes a year for HC

Its pretty simple to see that the point in the article is about the cost of the payment out of pocket for the average family of 4. Its simple for me to see, but I understand based on your nature that you could easily not see the relationship, especially when you are attempting to skew the debate.

Asitis: "Sure Oliver.... and in Canada, the total is paid for through taxes. So we are also talking about what the total cost is for that health care."

Taxes may be the total cost incidentally, but how on earth does that necessarily lead us to the discussion of the total cost? Taxes are also the out of pocket cost. This is the discussion.

And Kristen, I'm doubting you're from the Chicago area at all if you think Naperville or Downers Grove would be the closest metra stations to Romeoville.

Josephine: "And, Joliet? Are you kidding? That's the most disgusting city I've ever been in. I'd like to not get stabbed on my way to work."

What stastics arer you going off of? There were 14 murders for the whole year in the city. The crime rates are decreasing in fact. I also found several apartments for 500-700 range.

Ill look at Romeoville next.

Also, I said it takes the same amount of time. Residents don't spend more time working than doctors. If anything, they spend less. I don't know where you're going with that.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:04 PM

Hahahaha, I think my pediatrician friend would disagree with you! She told us stories of how she was so sleep deprived she couldn't even think straight.

I didn't say LP was "hard" to get into I said it's where most people try (as in want) to get into. And last time I heard Oprah's apartment was in Water Tower, she must have good eyes.

And, I believe I said the salary differences came with experience. By the way, $100,000-- not really that much money. Malpractice insurance costs more than $100,000.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:04 PM

Give me a break. You sound like - something I can't say on this board.

Okay, I searched Romeoville and found a couple places for 800ish. Still not bad, but really Joilet sounds like the way to go.

Josephine,

Are you ever going to acnswer my question about your stance on BC and activation/implantation?

Posted by: Callie at March 9, 2009 1:11 PM

I'm not from Chicago I've lived in Aurora and Naperville most of my life. I said "depending" as in depending on where you live. There is no train station in Romeoville, or in Plainfield for that matter, or Bolingbrook. You can get to a spot that you can then get on a bus that will take you to the City, or, like I said, get to the nearest train station and then go in.

Pray tell, where do you think the nearest train station is to Romeoville?

I'd take Bucktown over LINCOLN PARK in a heartbeat, after living in both. I did actually feel safer in my apartment in Bucktown, but it was the building I was in more than the neighborhood.

But I gave up my young city life and moved to the suburbs. Maybe Oliver can help me find my next home. :)

Callie: "Oliver can help me find my next home. :)"

I bet you I can do better than 1500 a month!

Kristen, my sister lives in a 1.5mil. house in Romeoville. The apartment I looked at there was $2,700 a month. ... and you must drive like an old woman if it takes you more than twenty minutes to get there. :)

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:06 PM

Right. My mortgage in Naperville isn't $2700.00 a month and I live a very nice house in the top rated Elementary, Jr. High and High school in district 203.

If you're looking at a $2700.00/month apartment in Romeoville then you really should take some life classes rather than biology because it's obvious you haven't learned the value of a dollar.

Even Google maps has the trip from Romeoville to Chicago as 44 minutes and unless you're traveling at 3:00 AM there's no way you're getting there in even that amount of time.

Check the Heritage Corridor of the Metra, Kristen. The closest metra station to Romeoville is in Lemont. This is pretty easy info to locate, both on the Romeoville website and the Metra site, but since you said "pray tell" I did the work for you.

I know you said depending on where you live, but I thought it was pretty clear we were talking about Romeoville.

Oliver, then you've NEVER been to Joliet. It's a disgusting, poor city. And honestly, pretty terrifying for a young couple. "ONLY" have fourteen murders is pretty bad coupled with the drugs and robberies that are in the papers. Joliet is not a great area. And, 800... I thought you were finding GREAT places for $400 in the suburbs. Where were those at? I'd like to check them out!

Actually, Oliver, not in my neighborhood! But I am not complaining, nor looking for a cheaper place. I am quite happy to pay a little extra to live where I do!

You do realize google maps is assuming you're going 55 on the interstate, which is the speed limit for the interstate in the city? Have you ever seen anyone drive 55 up there? I haven't. It'd be pretty dangerous to drive that slow.

I got downtown to the Ford theater from Romeoville in 30 minutes, easily, just last week.

I'm looking at $2,700 apartments because I have the means and I know what I want. That doesn't mean I don't know the value of a dollar-- it means I know what I want. Which is something nice.

This conversation isn't about where I'M living though. It's about people who are supposed to be able to afford to move out of the city to cover insurance, even though moving is expensive and it's really not THAT much cheaper to live out of the city-- especially when you combine that with the fact that everything is harder outside of the city... it's really hard to NOT have a car in the suburbs.

know you said depending on where you live, but I thought it was pretty clear we were talking about Romeoville.

Posted by: Callie at March 9, 2009 1:31 PM

Yes, and I'm 5 minutes from the downtown Naperville train station and I can get to Romeoville in about 10 minutes. (Right down Weber.) So it does depend on where you live IN ROMEOVILLE. From my side of Romeoville Lemont would definitely not be the closest.

Oliver, the article addresses total cost as well. And that is what i was commenting on all along. Only ypu misunderstod that, accused me of making errors or skewing data, and then when you realized(finally) that mistake, you had to make it an issue instead of what the writer's main point was. But it remains that issue I was addressing is valid and it is tied to the article.

But it seems you remain intent yet again, no watter how futile , in trying to prove me wrong or misleading. Thing is, I was neither. But you go on trying. It's actually kind of fun to watch....

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:37 PM

You've GOT to be kidding. Yes, I'm sure Google maps is assuming 55 mph. The problem is not the speed you want to go, it's the traffic. I made the commute for years, although I took the train whenever possible. If you believe you can make it to the City in 20 minutes from Romeoville, you're probably dating Brad Pitt too, because you are DREAMING!

But can you get to Romeoville in 10 minutes during rush hour? I think you'd agree that Naperville traffic is nuts at that time. I think it's actually easier to drive a little farther and park at Lemont.

But it is neither here nor there. There is no part of Romeoville close to Downers Grove, and I personally wouldn't live there if you paid me!

Uhm, Kristen, you can. I've gotten to Ford Theater DOWNTOWN in half an hour. You are really just not making sense. It is literally, EASY to make it in to the city in twenty minutes. Now, maybe not between 6-8a.m.... but, luckily for me, I don't have to worry about that.

You must be-- actually, I won't say it. I think I'd get banned. :)

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:45 PM

Yea, keep dreaming sweetie.

Posted by: Callie at March 9, 2009 1:44 PM

Downers Grove has some very nice areas, and relatively good schools, well compared to Romeoville anyway.

Sorry, Kristen, I meant I wouldn't live in Romeoville. You're right, Downers Grove is nice. I actually prefer it to Naperville! (no offense!)

Josephine: "Oliver, then you've NEVER been to Joliet. It's a disgusting, poor city. And honestly, pretty terrifying for a young couple. "ONLY" have fourteen murders is pretty bad coupled with the drugs and robberies that are in the papers. Joliet is not a great area. And, 800... I thought you were finding GREAT places for $400 in the suburbs. Where were those at? I'd like to check them out!"

I was finding great places in suburbs Josephine. You asked me for one suburb and challenged me to find a cheap place there. I found one for around 800. If you didnt place a limit on one of dozens of suburbs, I could find you even cheaper.

Be honest Josephine. Joilet has an INCREDIBLY decreasing crime rate and the numbers are not that high. You claimed that you didnt want to live there because it would be reasonable to expect to be stabbed. Those numbers dont hold up. Youre just a spoiled brat. The bottom line is that Joilet is as safe as most other places around big cities and is safe enough for someone who cant afford both insurance and a swanky loft in the city. There are places for those who cant afford insurance Josephine. It is obvious. Point made.

Also, Im shocked by your inability to basic math considering your amazing education at University of Illinois. Im sure you dad would be disapointed that you "chose" to not follow in his footsteps at this school.

44 minutes at 55 mph would be 35 minutes at 70 mph, and thats assuming you could hit 70 mph on a highway in Chicago. I know that when I drive the 15 miles to work

Josephine: "it's really hard to NOT have a car in the suburbs."

But its doable. Thats the point. Suck it up if you cant afford insurance.

Kristen, no one in my family has ever gone to a public school. School districts reallllly don't matter to me. :)

Asitis: "Only ypu misunderstod that, accused me of making errors or skewing data"

We were addressing the test that I quoted and parsed for you. Can you still not see what those two lines of text, that you attacked originally, mean? Its amazing. You just wont admit when youre wrong.

Josephine: "Kristen, no one in my family has ever gone to a public school. School districts reallllly don't matter to me. :)"

Spoken like a true....Democrat? Hm. Not quite actually.

By the way Josephine, care to ever respond to what you think BC does to activation, etc?

" You asked me for one suburb and challenged me to find a cheap place there."

You asked for the challenge and kept pushing. I didn't give you an impossible task.

Oliver, it ISN'T doable for some people. You think things are the same for everyone and they're NOT. God, Republicans don't care about anyone but themselves. EVERYONE has different circumstances and things are HARD. We're also talking about someone leaving the city and moving, which is a very expensive process!!

", and thats assuming you could hit 70 mph on a highway in Chicago. "

Uhm. You can get up to 90 pretty easily, actually. Not sure what you're talking about. The interstate isn't really busy until the actual city-- and it's mostly four lanes between Romeoville and Chicago. Unless you're driving like, a Ford, you shouldn't have a problem.

Ah, I'm supposed to care about the rate of public schools even though I won't use one, now? That makes sense.

Or, am I supposed to use public schools so I'm not an elitist? Are you kidding me?

And, way to take what I said out of context. I said the "The only DECENT place to live cost 1500" and I was only talking about what my realtor had showed me. Which you know.

My dad is a big wig. I'm not. And, that has nothing to do with anything else right now.

Joliet is gross and scary, and I'm not sorry about that. I wouldn't EVER live in Joliet because I wouldn't feel safe. Point blank.

Josephine: "You asked for the challenge and kept pushing. I didn't give you an impossible task."

When did I say it was impossible? I found a place in your suburb for 800, which is a completely reasonable price. You started getting sassy without justification saying that I claimed to have found places in the 400s. I did, and they arent in your one suburb out of several dozens. I dont understand how you think you can make a little jab over that. Makes no sense.

Josephien: "Oliver, it ISN'T doable for some people. You think things are the same for everyone and they're NOT. God, Republicans don't care about anyone but themselves. EVERYONE has different circumstances and things are HARD. We're also talking about someone leaving the city and moving, which is a very expensive process!!"

What? Republicans dont care about anyone but themselves? Republicans typicaly give a higher percentage of their income to charity.

My point is that you can survive within a reasonable means outside of the city.

By the way, moving costs for a Uhaul is 19.95 in town plus mileage. Not too expensive to move. Did you dad take care of all that for you I guess? You dont really seem to know what you are talking about.

Josephine: "Uhm. You can get up to 90 pretty easily, actually. Not sure what you're talking about. The interstate isn't really busy until the actual city-- and it's mostly four lanes between Romeoville and Chicago. Unless you're driving like, a Ford, you shouldn't have a problem. "

Whats wrong with a Ford? By the way, driving 90 miles an hour is illegal and dangerous. Another sign of your immaturity and selfishness.

The bottom line is that there is no reason for me to pay for someone else's insurance so that they can live in the city instead of commuting. I know its cool living in the city and convenient, but do it on your own buck, not mine. You can survive in a crappy apartment until you can afford to move someplace better. You shouldnt have the right to live off my dime simply because its too "icky" for you.

Kristen, no one in my family has ever gone to a public school. School districts reallllly don't matter to me. :)

You're very fortunate to have that option. It's something I, who am saving up to buy my first apartment, would really like to keep in mind -- considering that even out in Queens, further out than I am now, apartments easily run $200,000-$500,000 for a 1- or 2-bedroom. I think most people who are concerned about the cost of rent/real estate, or who consider living in the less flashy areas of major cities, care very much about the public schools available to them. To flaunt your situation, as though you have somehow achieved something wonderful by not needing to care about public schools, is somewhat insensitive. It's not elitist to use private schools, but it is elitist to gloat about the fact that you realllllly don't care about public schools.

I live in Queens now, with a 40-minute commute to Midtown Manhattan, and pay $1590/month in rent. I live a block away from government-assisted apartments, which are actually very quiet and nice. Barring some massive increase in wealth (unlikely) I will definitely take advantage of the public school system in my city, when I have kids. And while I think that education/personal growth depends more on the parents than the school, I'd like to not have my kids in a totally crappy environment for 6 hours a day!

Josephine: "Ah, I'm supposed to care about the rate of public schools even though I won't use one, now? That makes sense.

Or, am I supposed to use public schools so I'm not an elitist? Are you kidding me?"

No. You made a big point that NO ONE in your whole FAMILY has gone to public school. It was tangential to the conversation about you, and thrown up to sound superior I guess. Why else would you bring up whether or not your other family memebers attending public school? Really?

Josephine: "And, way to take what I said out of context. I said the "The only DECENT place to live cost 1500" and I was only talking about what my realtor had showed me. Which you know."

Right. Only DECENT place.

Josephine: "My dad is a big wig. I'm not. And, that has nothing to do with anything else right now."

You bring him up everytime you can to try to gain leverage in your argument. Its pretty obvious how you think. You dont even know how cheap it is to move in city.

Josephine: "Joliet is gross and scary, and I'm not sorry about that. I wouldn't EVER live in Joliet because I wouldn't feel safe. Point blank."

Yeah exactly, which is why you a spoiled brat. There is nothing wrong with the city. Look at the crime stats. They have the stats right on the police website. You dont like it because
it isnt "nice."

By the way, you should check out of the crime statistics for the city of Chicago. Pretty high. I think Joilet is much safer actually.

Sorry, I usually prefer not to discuss money, especially not in actual dollar amounts -- but discussing, or even asking about, rent is sort of a New York thing. I swear I don't go around talking about how much I spend all the time, or anything! I'm so used to answering questions like "Oh right, you live in Astoria, what do you pay?" or "How much money do you save, relative to space?" etc, that sometimes when people are discussing city rents, it's hard for me to remember to turn my censors back on.

I just don't want anyone to get the wrong impression of me. ;)

Oddly enough, you came across rather nice Alexandra. But then again, I am biased in that you are pointing to Josephine's spoiled nature.

Quote of the day so far is....

"It's not elitist to use private schools, but it is elitist to gloat about the fact that you realllllly don't care about public schools."

My wife just said that Josephine sounds like "Paris Hilton."

"That city is gross."

What does that even mean? Its gross? Why would it even matter if you were too poor to afford health insurance?

I agree, Oliver, that Josephine is being elitist in her statements.

I will also say, though, that I agree with her that you will absolutely not be able to find a decent apartment in a safe neighborhood for $400. Sad to say, but you are not. Not even a basic, no-frills, apartment in a non-dangerous neighborhood in a far-flung suburb. And I would have no problem living in Joliet! (not in some neighborhoods there, but I would not write the entire city off.)

I also agree with Josephine that it is VERY hard to get by without a car in the suburbs. So much so that lots of people are driving unsafe cars without auto insurance, because they have no other way to get to work. That is one reason I pay more to live where I do. I don't need a car where I am.

Oliver-- typical Republican, again. Taking things I said and then turning them. In what we were talking about you asked why I would know about hospital finance. My dad is on the board at a hospital and I was his assistant.

Never did I just bring it up. YOU asked and that's what I answered.

I said no one in my family goes to public schools so they don't concern me, because they don't. I don't care about public schools one bit. I still pay for them though. I don't complain about it constantly, like SOME people here complain about paying for other people's things. I don't really understand why you think it's okay that a person should have to pay to send other kid's to school when it's something they don't use-- yet no one should have to help out in other area's of someone's personal life. I mean, why not have it if you can't afford private school you'd miss out on education--

but we know that wouldn't work. NOW it's ridiculous to think it. ...I just don't think it's that much different. Sure, everyone benefits from people being educated-- but very smart people can be poor and need help after school.

And yes, only decent place. Why do you keep pushing? The only decent place I was shown was 1,500... why do you just keep copying the same thing over and over?

"By the way, you should check out of the crime statistics for the city of Chicago. Pretty high. I think Joilet is much safer actually."

You do realize the crime stats in Chicago vary greatly on NEIGHBORHOOD, right? Which is what we were talking about? The safe places?

Callie,

My point is not to say that 400 is definitely a viable option, although I do believe that youd be suprised what you can find sometimes. My point is that there are more reasonable options than 1500 dollars a month in rent if you cannot afford health insurance.

By the way, for the car thing, I live in Austin and youd be suprised how many people in my neighborhood "rough it" and either walk to the walmart down the street or ride bikes/scooters. There are ways to survive if it is necessary that are not "that" bad. 1500 a month is outlandish unless you live in New York or California or you have the income to spend. If you dont not have the income, you need to find a cheaper place and not complain to the Government to cover your healthcare UNLESS you already make below the 2000 odd dollars a month that qualifies you for medicaid.

Oliver I've already addressed that text and explained to you how I was not wrong. But you go ahead.... Keep trying. It was a good point I made and you're only making it better by giving it so much attention. Thanks babe! Oh how you'd love me to be wrong.

Gorgeous spring day here and off for a hike with my dog. You should get put Oliver. It would cheer you up!

Asitis, where do you live, if you don't mind mea asking?? We had a gorgeous 70 degree weekend here and now it's back to 45.

Asitis: "Oliver I've already addressed that text and explained to you how I was not wrong."

What are you talking about? You havent addressed the text after I parsed it. I made it EXTREMELY clear when I did that how the structure of the article worked. You could only skew the meaning of the article under the intention of looking for your argument. It simply isnt there, and its pretty obvious. I shouldnt have had to explain it, but now that I have, why dont you concede your point? Instead you continue to post "nu-uh" without any of your own anylsis and minus the original "sting" you put into your posts. Its pretty apparent to me that you have no rebuttal.

Josephine,

There was no need to point out that your dad did not go to public school or any of your other family memebers. I never skewed your words either. Ive seen you talk about your dad repeatedly on this blog. The first time was to prove that you KNEW about cell activation.

By the way, what is your stance on cell ativation and BC?

You claimed that you only left last night because it was late and that you would come back and "answer my questions." Why have you avoided this question repeatedly now?

Oliver, why don't you look in one of the other five threads we talked about it in, instead of totally changing the subject?

I already told you I was done talking about it-- if you want to talk to someone about it, I already suggested you call the head of dept.

Oliver,

I spent a little over a year in Austin. You guys do have a much better public trans. system than the Chicago 'burbs. You guys also don't have the Chicago winters! Try walking or riding a bike through the -35 degreee windchills we had this winter! Try doing this with a handcart full of groceries and a toddler! It would be quite dangerous. And you cannot ride a scooter in the snow, trust me, I have one!

I worked in social services in the Chicago suburbs for many years. I saw many people do things you wouldn't believe in order to make ends meet. I saw people put more effort into getting to their minimum wage job than they needed to do their job once they got there. It was not hard to see how some people felt it was easier to give up on working and ask for assistance.

I agree that 1500 for a one bedroom apartment is a lot of money if one is poor. It is not bad for a bigger unit than that, though, if one takes safety into consideration.

Oliver, I would say it's a privileged nature, rather than a spoiled nature -- I think it has more to do with naivete than an actual lack of gratitude or anything. There's an intern working with my company who grew up in the suburbs of NYC, and currently goes to college just outside the city. The kid is like 21 and, when he heard I live in Queens, he dismissively said, "Oh, I could never do that, I'm a Manhattan kind of guy." I'd like to see what he says in five years -- the dude has never even lived in Manhattan! He takes the train in on weekends and crashes with the parents of his school friends.

Kind of like when my sister's friends visited NYC from Slovenia and came back from a day of sightseeing swearing that if they lived here, they would all live on the Upper West Side. Yeah, $1mil for a 2-bedroom, go for it.

Josephine:

I said no one in my family goes to public schools so they don't concern me, because they don't. I don't care about public schools one bit.

The subject was not private school versus public school -- it was quality of apartment (affected by neighborhood and location) versus price. For most people who are concerned about the price of their apartment, public schools are also a concern that factors into the quality of the apartment. To take that generality and make it into a specific, about your family's privilege, is unnecessary and shows precious little awareness about the realities facing the sorts of people who are likely to be looking for affordable housing.

It was kind of a "let them eat cake" sort of comment. It's like if someone said, "You can have an apartment for $300 in this neighborhood, and still drink the tap water," and you said, "I don't drink tap water, I only drink bottled." That has nothing to do with the hypothetical situation at hand, in which the people renting an apartment will probably care very much about being able to drink the tap water. There is no point in mentioning that, because the fact is that if you're the sort of person who buys bottled water regularly, you probably don't need to look for apartments in allegedly undesirable areas.

Just as you have noted, a $400 apartment in the middle of nowhere is of precious little use to many people -- probably all people who don't have a helicopter to fly them to work every day. Similarly, a $400 apartment with schools where your kid will get shot one day is not the bargain it may seem. Distance to work is a very important factor for people who need to commute, and similarly, public schools are a very important factor for people who need to use them. People looking for affordable housing likely fall into both of those categories.

Josephine: "Oliver, why don't you look in one of the other five threads we talked about it in, instead of totally changing the subject?"

Because, as I already pointed to you, we couldnt figure out what you were saying. You contradicted yourself multiple times. It made no sense. I need clarification on your stance to ask the head of your department.

Josephine: "I already told you I was done talking about it-- if you want to talk to someone about it, I already suggested you call the head of dept."

I dont know what to ask them Josephine. You said last night you would answer my questions. You deflected it last night and you deflected it earlier today and now you are deflecting it again. You know why you are doing this? You dont remember what you said and you dont want to say anything now in case it again runs contrary to your original point. You were talking out of your ass like you have been here and in almost every other thread which you post in.

Its a simple 15 word answer at most. What do you think BC does to activation and does activation occur before or after implantation?

Calie: "I spent a little over a year in Austin. You guys do have a much better public trans. system than the Chicago 'burbs. You guys also don't have the Chicago winters! Try walking or riding a bike through the -35 degreee windchills we had this winter! Try doing this with a handcart full of groceries and a toddler! It would be quite dangerous. And you cannot ride a scooter in the snow, trust me, I have one!"

Granted, but there isnt frozen snow year round. There are ways to survive when necessary. Renting a cab twice a month would be cheaper than paying the additonal 800 dollars a month in rent at the least.

Alexandra: "Just as you have noted, a $400 apartment in the middle of nowhere is of precious little use to many people"

Sure, but there are places that cost 600 or 700 that are on buslines and have reasonable crime statistics. There are also apartments that cost 400 that are safe and on transportation lines.

To be honest, as a NYer, my prime concern is access to public transportation. I don't really care too much about crime because I don't really think that there are many places in the US -- certainly not many in NYC -- where you really have no hope of protecting yourself. Granted there are more dangerous neighborhoods, and it would be crummy to need to live in them, particularly if you had kids. But I'd view the concessions made to living safely in a high-crime area to be less of an obstacle than the concessions made to live in an area virtually inaccessible by public transportation. My neighborhood is very safe, but I view that as a luxury, an added benefit -- not really the main reason I live here. (My boyfriend's parents find it terrifying, which makes me laugh -- kind of similar to how some comments in this thread made me laugh!)

I do have a skewed perspective for many purposes, because NY is so dependent on public transportation. Even if you can afford a car, you almost certainly cannot drive to work. There are a lot of areas, particularly in Queens, that are accessible only by taking a train to a bus, and I would rather put up with higher crime than put up with bus/train transfers. It can add a ton of time to your commute, it makes you susceptible to rush-hour traffic, etc.

If I needed to, of course, I would live in an apartment away from public transport, or in a bus-only neighborhood. But it would probably be the last thing I'd give up.

Admittedly, I'm not really all that familiar with Chicago -- transportation or suburbs, and definitely not apartment prices.

Do you live in a "gross" neighborhood Alexandra?

Really, Oliver, I'm not talking about how to get to the grocery store. If folks only left their houses twice a month no one would need cars. Or we could all car-share. You are the one who brought up walking to Wal-Mart.

I'm talking about people who need to go to work every day. People who don't make much more than minimum wage. Let me tell you about a woman whose family I dealt with about seven years ago.

She lived in a suburb that did not have high rents. It was not the greatest area, but it was not horrifically dangerous. Of course, it is not easy to find a service-industry low paying job in these areas, as there is a lot of competition out there for them. She obtained a full time job at a fast-food restaurant (with benefits!) three towns over, in a swankier suburb. Her commute, taking the bus, took her almost 2 1/2 hours each direction. This meant she was away from her house 13 hours a day, and her three young children were on their own until she came home, at almost 8pm. Her ultimate goal was to find a job in the town where she lived, but until then she had to take what she could find.

I think that, when faced with a situation like this, the hardship of it all makes it very appealing to try to make it in a higher-rent apartment closer to ones job. Or to just give up and look for government handouts to support you.

I'm just asking that, on paper (on online, I guess) we can see how others should live their lives (take the bus! Ride your bike! Move to a more dangerous neighborhood so your rent is lower!) but there are factors that, sitting behind our computers, in our houses or at our jobs, we can't imagine.

Anyway, I don't even know where I'm going with this anymore, or how I even got sucked into this, so I'm through!

Hahahahaha Oliver! Some people would certainly consider my neighborhood "gross." Boyfriend's parents are in that group. I find it charming! I'd live here forever if I could, but prices to buy are out of my range so alas, I must look to neighborhoods that are grosser still.

Oliver, I explained it to you last night after the first time you broke it down. But you don't want to see that the article had more than one issue and I brought up a very valid point, supported it and did none of the things you are trying so desperately to accuse me of. No, you would just love to be able to say I'm wrong and as such you aren't even listening to what I have said....And in the process, not coming off so well.If I were being nice (and I should be.... The sunny is shining in my face and making my freckles pop) I would advise you to stop

PS Josephine, I live in the mid Atlantic region. Cooler than the weekend high, but sunny and mild!

Callie,

The point is that if you make more than the limited number for medicaid, you can make sacrifices to survive. You dont NEED certain things. This is the mentality that is destroying our society. When I made little money, we ate ramen noodles, and only drove our car to go to work. If there was public transportation, I would have taken it. Its sruvivable and thats the point. Is it a good life? No, but when did we decide that a good quality of life is given away for free? You have to earn your expensive apartment, internet, cell phone, new car, etc. If having health insurance means that you cant have these things yet, then you have to just deal with it.

Or "grosser" still...

"crude, earthy, gross, vulgar"

Uhm. Joliet is "gross", Oliver. You've never been there. I go a couple times a year on guard related activity, and they put me up in a hotel. Because I'm a girl, they let me bring my boyfriend because they absolutely didn't want me to stay there alone, because of the danger.

They HAVE sent me other places that I stayed alone at, because they weren't dangerous.

Callie is right-- I have to concede. Not every area is bad. But the areas I've been in are. I've yet to see the nice areas-- but I shouldn't assume they aren't there.

Asitis: "Oliver, I explained it to you last night after the first time you broke it down. But you don't want to see that the article had more than one issue and I brought up a very valid point, supported it and did none of the things you are trying so desperately to accuse me of."

What are you talking about? I parsed the argument just now in response to your misinterpretation. You havent responded to that interestingly enough.

Asitis: "No, you would just love to be able to say I'm wrong and as such you aren't even listening to what I have said....And in the process, not coming off so well.If I were being nice (and I should be.... The sunny is shining in my face and making my freckles pop) I would advise you to stop"

Asitis, you are wrong on a daily basis. I dont care if you admit it, I just want to explain it to you as plainly as possible so the more your deny it the more you weaken your credibility. Its obviously already happening.

"No, but when did we decide that a good quality of life is given away for free? You have to earn your expensive apartment, internet, cell phone, new car, etc. "

Uhm, when was I talking about someone with a new car, a cell phone, and the internet? I'm pretty sure in my example the person didn't own a car-- making it harder still to move out of the city.

Josephine: "Uhm. Joliet is "gross", Oliver. You've never been there. I go a couple times a year on guard related activity, and they put me up in a hotel. Because I'm a girl, they let me bring my boyfriend because they absolutely didn't want me to stay there alone, because of the danger."

I thought you were a solider. Does the military not put medics through basic training?

The point was that you said it was gross AND dangerous. What the hell does "gross" mean? Are the buildings too old for you? And are the 14 murders really that dangerous anyways? I wonder how many of those were domestic disturbances.

Josephine: "Uhm, when was I talking about someone with a new car, a cell phone, and the internet? I'm pretty sure in my example the person didn't own a car-- making it harder still to move out of the city."

Yeah, thats why I said you have to earn all of those things. Try to pay attention.

Uhm, they do. Do you know soldiers that carry guns around? I don't..not even soldiers in the regular Army, unless they're MPs. No amount of training makes a 100lbs girl tough.

What do you mean, what does "gross" mean?? Gross is a synonym for: "crude, earthy, vulgar". Dirty.

Thanks, Oliver, for reminding me. And I guess I was trying to say that, whithout knowing an individuals situation intimately, we should not judge the sacrifices we assume that are or are not making.

"Yeah, thats why I said you have to earn all of those things. Try to pay attention."

Yeah, and you were equating it with our other discussion... even though originially, it was a single person who already lived in the city with no car. Your solution was to move to a suburb, which, if you can't afford $100 in insurance a month, that seems like a pretty unrealistic solution.

You shouldn't have to earn your right to be cared for if you have a heart attack. It's not a cell phone, Oliver. It's care.

No amount of training makes a 100lbs girl tough.

I really disagree with that.

Josephine: "Uhm, they do. Do you know soldiers that carry guns around? I don't..not even soldiers in the regular Army, unless they're MPs. No amount of training makes a 100lbs girl tough."

I couldnt disagree with you any more. If properly trained in hand to hand combat, a 100lb girl can be deadly. Glad to see that the military did such a good job training you that you need to carry your boyfriend around with you to hotels in a city with an average of one murder a month. Im sure it was their suggestion too right?

Josephine: "What do you mean, what does "gross" mean?? Gross is a synonym for: "crude, earthy, vulgar". Dirty."

Okay, I guess I have to spell it out for you. What do you mean "gross" in describing a city, and what would that have to do with someone who is too poor to afford health insurance? What do you mean by a "dirty" city? Pollution? Littering? Old buildings?

Josephine: "Yeah, and you were equating it with our other discussion... even though originially, it was a single person who already lived in the city with no car. Your solution was to move to a suburb, which, if you can't afford $100 in insurance a month, that seems like a pretty unrealistic solution."

My argument was that if you cannot afford insurance, then you dont have the right to have standards and enjoy luxuries, specifically those things I mentioned. The main issue you seem to be arguing on is housing, and my point again is that you do not have the right to demand a "non-gross" living scenario.

By the way, I would love for you to tell the average citizen in Iraq/Africa/China/Russia that someone poor shouldnt have to live in a "gross" city as Joilet. Hell, Id like the citizens of Joilet to hear you say that.

Josephine: "You shouldn't have to earn your right to be cared for if you have a heart attack. It's not a cell phone, Oliver. It's care."

Sigh. For the thousandth time, I am not talking about someone who really cant afford healthcare. Medicaid takes care of those people. I know the cutoff in Texas is around 1700 a month for a single person. We are talking about people who COULD make cut backs.

By the way, do any of your friends who cannot afford insurance own cell phones? Internet plans? Cable? Do they eat fast food? Do they buy new clothing, and do they buy them from non-thrift stores?

Sure you dont have to "earn" your right to be cared for, just like you do not have to earn your right to have food. But, if you make 40,000 a year and spend all of your money on drugs, would you think the government responsible to pay for the food? Of course not.

Alexandra: "I really disagree with that."

How could she defend herself from all the rampant murders in Joilet? I mean, there were FOURTEEN murders in 2006!! She needs her boyfriend to sleep with her in her hotel to protect her of course. Thats what the military has trained her to do. Be dependent on a civilian for protection.

"But, if you make 40,000 a year and spend all of your money on drugs, would you think the government responsible to pay for the food? Of course not."

That's exactly the same as making $2,000 a month that you spend on cost of living, and can't afford health coverage. Exactly the same. (sarcasm)

Also, we are talking about danger in cities. Not exactly the same as hand to hand combat from BCT, is it?

Dirty is dirty. Dirty, run down. Don't pretend like I'm the only person you've heard describe a city as dirty. If so, then you've apparently only talked to handful of people.

"The main issue you seem to be arguing on is housing, and my point again is that you do not have the right to demand a "non-gross" living scenario."

I disagree. No one should have to live somewhere dirty just because it's the only way they can afford healthcare. Especially when you get into family situations. I don't think it's right.

"By the way, I would love for you to tell the average citizen in Iraq/Africa/China/Russia that someone poor shouldnt have to live in a "gross" city"

This is funny to me. I'd love for YOU to tell them they DO have to live in a gross city because they're poor. Let's see who gets a better reaction. Me, saying I don't think they should have to live somewhere gross-- or you, saying "You're poor, you don't deserve to have anything"........ which is, esentially what you're saying. Even though some of the hardest workers are probably poor people.

Oliver,

Ok, I know Josephine has sounded pretty stuck up in some of her posts here. But, I will say, that the areas in Joliet where apartments are cheapest would absolutely not be safe for a young, caucasian to live in. Joliet is a large city, and I am fairly certain that most, if not all, of those 14 murders took place in a very specific area of Joliet, the area where rents run 600-700/month and where Josephine would not be safe.

Granted, Josephine let Joliet's reputation among smug Romeovillians sway her into believing that all of Joliet is gross, and she is wrong on that point, but I would hesitate to recommend anyone live in a 600/mo apartment in Joliet without them being comfortable in and familiar with that area. I would also recommend they be childless and street-smart.

Callie-- I'm not from Romeoville. I live in the east suburbs when I'm not at school. My view of Joliet is only when I go to my NG things there.

Josephine,

What are the east suburbs? Indiana?

No, not in Indiana. I'm an idiot and mixed up my east and west. My parents normally live in Highland Park.

Ah, I wouldn't consider Highland Park west, either, that's north!

I live in Oak Park, which I consider to be west. :)

This is funny to me. I'd love for YOU to tell them they DO have to live in a gross city because they're poor.

I think that they would probably be offended that you're calling their city gross. For one thing, 'gross' is an opinion, and a judgmental word. Of course everything is relative, but many opinions -- whether something is dangerous, etc -- can be supported (or refuted) by evidence. "Gross," on the other hand, implies some less tangible kind of dirtiness. Generally the kind of dirtiness that comes as part of the package for living in a low-income area, to be honest about it. Uninspired architecture. Bags of trash on the street. People picking through those bags of trash. Kids hanging outside the laundromat, spitting on the sidewalk, shrieking with laughter and vulgar language.

Gross is a term of privilege, because even being able to worry about living in a gross (or "crude" or "vulgar" or whatever) area is a privileged position to be in. Gross implicitly has more to do with feeling than with statistics or facts. It's a euphemism for "undesirable," because it implicitly relates to things that cannot be expressed in statistics or facts -- crime, transportation, schools -- but rather relates only to preconceived notions of "acceptability."

I can tell you right now, if anyone came into my apartment and said that my bathroom was gross because the grout is falling off the walls, the lighting is gross because the outlets are starting to come loose, the rooms are gross because the city dust blows straight through since the apartment is a train and runs straight from one street to the alley behind it -- I'd be pretty offended. Even if they were saying, "You don't need to live in a gross apartment." I'd be like, "How dare you call my apartment gross." I've got a bathroom, I've got lights, I've got a fridge full of food and enough furniture that the dust quantities SERIOUSLY piss me off. The grossness of my apartment is not due to me not having the things require as a human being to exercise my natural rights; there is no humanitarian concern that qualifies my apartment as being gross -- it's just due to my apartment not being super-pretty to look at. I'd consider anyone who pointed that out to be pretty rude.

Seeing that you are from Highland Park I'm surprised you would want to live in Romeoville. Granted, I've only been there a few times, but I'm not a fan of that entire area. It just seems to be lacking something, like culture or diversity or something. I just picture beige McMansions in subdivisions with names like Meadowlark Court...

Asitis, you are wrong on a daily basis. I dont care if you admit it, I just want to explain it to you as plainly as possible so the more your deny it the more you weaken your credibility. Its obviously already happening.

Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 3:24 PM

Wrong? On a daily basis? Weaken my credibility???? Yes, you would love that. Keep trying Oliver. Pray too, if you are so inclined. May all those dreams come true.

Alexandra, we apparently have different views. My apartment where I am now, at school, is gross. I know it, and I don't care if other people know it. It's in a kind of dirty neighborhood, which I realize. The air conditioner sucks so it's muggy inside, the bathroom is plain dingy...

It's where I live though. Don't care if people tell me the truth about it. I already know.

Well, I don't really want the suburbs at all. That just happened to be an apartment I was shown and a name I used for Oliver's little challenge. I'm actually moving to the city-- if I were going to live in a suburb, I'd probably just move back in with my parents.

Alexandra,
Your comments are a breathe of fresh air.

* * * * * * * *

This is funny to me. I'd love for YOU to tell them they DO have to live in a gross city because they're poor. Let's see who gets a better reaction. Me, saying I don't think they should have to live somewhere gross-- or you, saying "You're poor, you don't deserve to have anything"........ which is, esentially what you're saying. Even though some of the hardest workers are probably poor people.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 4:00 PM

What an amusing exchange on this thread. You are putting words in Oliver's mouth ("You're poor, you don't deserve to have anything..."). Your comments affirm your socialist mentality. Over the years, I have noticed that doctors, as a group, are extremely liberal. ***A warning to those young people (who lean towards conservatism) contemplating the medical profession.

Of course doctors are liberal. They're smart, compassionate, and understand the world.

Actually, anyone with more than four years of education is generally more liberal... it's not something I've noticed over the years. It's a statistics from my current politics class, and probably one plastered all over the internet.

Uhm. Joliet is "gross", Oliver. You've never been there. I go a couple times a year on guard related activity, and they put me up in a hotel. Because I'm a girl, they let me bring my boyfriend because they absolutely didn't want me to stay there alone, because of the danger.

Josephine,
So who is going with you to those big bad scary places when you are deployed. I don't believe you.

No amount of training makes a 100lbs girl tough.

I really disagree with that.

Posted by: Alexandra at March 9, 2009 3:37 PM

As do I. Something stinks in Denmark.

All I have to say is that even to the pro-choicer's here, you are coming across as a stuck up child Josephine. You do so almost every time you post.

You constantly drop your credentials as the source of your argument and not any actual facts or arguments. Here you are arguing that Joilet is a "gross" city and that the government should have to cover the insurance of someone earning over the medicaid limit to avoid living somewhere "gross." The very idea that you call the city gross is beyond insulting.

I actually googled a couple photos of the Joilet area and it looks like a charming town. But then again, I guess janitors may live there and we all know how you feel about those people.

I also notice that after all that time you SITLL havent clarified your stance on BC and activation. You said you wouldnt talk to me because I only googled the information, another sign of your elitism, but now that I have explained to you that I did NOT google the information, you still wont discuss with me. I just need some clarification because you contradicted yourself in the other posts.

Just explain the order of implantatin, fertilization and activation in a few words and then add your thoughts on what BC does to activation. Simple really.

Glynn,

She probably just had her boyfriend come, or asked if he could come, and they let her take him. If they were that worried about her, they would have sent an actual solider. They wouldnt have left her security to her civilian boyfriend. She just wanted the excuse to "shack up" in the gross hotel in Joilet.

Oliver,
I have decided, after last night and what I have read here today that Josephine is indeed a poser. She may well be a doctor's daughter, a privileged spoiled girl who does, as your wife remarked, resemble very much in action and word Paris Hilton. Not a comparison I would find flattering. Her remarks about the Guard allowing her to bring her boyfriend with her when she was in Joliet because it was so dangerous did it for me. I was in the military for 19 years. I am also the child of a 32 year veteran. The service does not make special concessions for women, even 100 pound women with silver spoons.

Josephine, who are you really and why won't you answer Oliver's questions? I asked you a few last night that you also chose to not answer.

Glynn,

She probably just had her boyfriend come, or asked if he could come, and they let her take him. If they were that worried about her, they would have sent an actual solider. They wouldnt have left her security to her civilian boyfriend. She just wanted the excuse to "shack up" in the gross hotel in Joilet.

Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 5:20 PM

Yes, I am sure you are right. ;)

Glynn,

Dont take this the wrong way, but you may be my internet message board soul mate.

Actually, anyone with more than four years of education is generally more liberal... it's not something I've noticed over the years. It's a statistics from my current politics class, and probably one plastered all over the internet.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 5:07 PM

Then perhaps four years of college is highly overrated. You know you can't believe everything your professors say. Do they teach critical thinking in school anymore?

Hal,
What do you mean by "understand the world"? Is this something that liberals have a monopoly on?

Josephine, we lived in one of the most desireable neighborhoods in DFW, heck even the nation in a brand new house. Now one would say that our house was "gross" from looking at it. In fact, they'd say just the opposite. It looked like the peferct little starter home.

You know what was gross? We had mice. Not just like we saw a mouse, we literally had an infestation. See, our nice little starter home was built over their natrual habitat and they weren't so keen on moving. It took us months to get rid of them and it was disgusting.

Now we live in a house that was built in the 60's. I'm sure you'd consider our neighborhood "gross" because there is a self-storage unit on the corner and a bus stop at the light. However, our little old house is actually more charming and more livable than that brand new house in a shining sub-division.

Things aren't always what they seem, and for families who are trying to come up with a liviable family budget, sometimes you have to look in a "gross" area. You might be shocked at how wonderful "gross" can be.

Lauren,
How unfortunate about the mice. Maybe a big noisy dog would have helped. But then, who wants a big, noisy dog?

Lauren, it was NEVER about JUST living in a gross area. It was about what someone would have to give up to afford insurance. You people need to read the whole thread. I don't think ANYONE should have to give up living somewhere CLEAN and SAFE so they can afford health care. I think it's a SHAME that it happens. Instead of paying an extra $5 a year in taxes, you'd rather just watch it happen and feel like you earned everything you have. That's great for you, I think you and your husband are incredibly selfish.

Glynn, uhm, the army and the NG are different things, first of all. I didn't not "ask if my bf could come"... that's why he doesn't go with me when I have to go to Texas. Now, "why wouldn't they have a soldier stay with me" well, you have NO idea what I'm doing there. I don't go there with other soldiers. It's something I work on, sometimes in Texas, sometimes in Joliet.

I will be with thousands of other soldiers when I'm deployed. Your point?

Oliver, first of all-- I'm not pro-choice. And, if I'm a child-- please, Oliver, does it make you feel good about yourself to bully a "child"? Because you can't have it both ways. You're either arguing with me, or your bullying a child.

And, how do I feel about janitors?! WTH. Please tell me how I feel about janitors. I believe Callie also said a young caucasion wouldn't be safe in the kinds of places you were suggesting. Let's just pretend no one else said it though, PLEASE pretend it's just me! :)

And stop saying "gross"... you asked what "gross" meant, and I've been using it synonymously with "dirty"... if you've never heard of a city described as "dirty" I don't think you've ever watched the news.

OOOH!! You googled some more! That means you know exactly what the city is like! :)

Glynn, you asked me what the names of the janitors I worked with were. You said this because YOU were insulted I asked if you were a janitor. :)

"She probably just had her boyfriend come, or asked if he could come, and they let her take him. If they were that worried about her, they would have sent an actual solider. They wouldnt have left her security to her civilian boyfriend. She just wanted the excuse to "shack up" in the gross hotel in Joilet. "

Yeah, because if the military had a male soldier stay with me in a hotel room, that would look great on them. Especially since the males in my unit are sergeants, which I am not... shack the specialist up with an older sergeant for a night. That'd get some good press. ;)

What would the Army had done if you didnt have a boyfriend Josephine? I call bullshit.

Why will you not answer my question by the way? Do you just not know what activation is or when it occurs? Remember you were the one who called me out on not calling your proffesor.

Josephine: "You googled some more!"

What does this mean exactly?

Josephine: "You said this because YOU were insulted I asked if you were a janitor."

No she was not insulted. You insulted janitors by using the term as a derogatory remark. "You dont know anything, you must not work in a hospital, unless you were a janitor."

Pretty insulting. Just like it is insulting to say that a city is too "dirty" to live in even if you cant afford anything else.

By the way, you have yet to explain, how on earth is the city dirty? By the way, you threw this out a few times, but I dont hear people calling cities dirty. Maybe Ive heard it once or twice from other stuck up princesses like you. You might hear it all the time though, based on who you have as friends; people who cant stomach living in Joilet to make ends meet and afford health insurance. Again, do these friends of yours own cell phones, internet connections? You keep avoiding that question too.

"What would the Army had done if you didnt have a boyfriend Josephine? I call bullshit."

Uhm, had me bring someone else. Obviously. You act like the people I deal with aren't the same people over and over. It's not like my unit is this massive thing where no one knows anyone. These are people I spend a lot of time with. They literally told me to bring (his name), but if I hadn't had him, they'd probably say bring "someoneone".

"No she was not insulted. You insulted janitors by using the term as a derogatory remark. "You dont know anything, you must not work in a hospital, unless you were a janitor.""

Hm, yet you left off the part of the quote where I said "because they're the only people in the hospital that aren't in any way involved with patients or billing, except for gift shop attendants"... but, it's okay. Selectively quote. I'm sure you learned that from Fox News.

"Pretty insulting. Just like it is insulting to say that a city is too "dirty" to live in even if you cant afford anything else."

Where did I say this? PLEASE show me, keeping in mind our WHOLE conversation was a single woman. So please, TELL ME? Show me? I'd love that... YOU were the one that said people should HAVE to live dirty places if they can't afford health insurance.

"Again, do these friends of yours own cell phones, internet connections? You keep avoiding that question too."

My spoiled princess friends? Uhm, sure. Sure they do. Not sure what that has to do with anything, either though. What next-- wanna know what kind of cars we drive?

Sorry, Kristen, I meant I wouldn't live in Romeoville. You're right, Downers Grove is nice. I actually prefer it to Naperville! (no offense!)

Posted by: Callie at March 9, 2009 1:49 PM

None taken! I like the older houses in Downers Grove better but hubby is a teacher in 203 so we're here. It's nice to be close to his work and I worked from home so it didn't matter to me much. We moved because we lived on the South side of Plainfield. His 15 mile commute took him 45 minutes on a great day. Talk about a place with horrific traffic!

Josephine: "Uhm, had me bring someone else. Obviously. You act like the people I deal with aren't the same people over and over. It's not like my unit is this massive thing where no one knows anyone. These are people I spend a lot of time with. They literally told me to bring (his name), but if I hadn't had him, they'd probably say bring "someoneone"."

So what if you didnt have anybody to bring? What if nobody was available? Im finding it really hard to believe that the military relies on your friendships and romantic entanglements for your saftey.

Josephine: "Hm, yet you left off the part of the quote where I said "because they're the only people in the hospital that aren't in any way involved with patients or billing, except for gift shop attendants"... but, it's okay. Selectively quote. I'm sure you learned that from Fox News."

And you forgot to mention that your little clarification was NOT a part of the original quote. You also forgot to mention the context of the original quote. You were insulting Glynn based on her experience with the financial aspect, then claimed she didnt know what she was talking about so could only be a janitor. If you brought up the janitor only to point out that she had little experience with the financial side, which was the only aspect discussed, why did you not just leave it as "well youre just a nurse and you have no idea of the inner financial workings?" Why did she have to be a "janitor" when the knowlegde of medicine was not in question? Please.

Josephine: "Where did I say this? PLEASE show me, keeping in mind our WHOLE conversation was a single woman. So please, TELL ME? Show me? I'd love that... YOU were the one that said people should HAVE to live dirty places if they can't afford health insurance."

Where did you say it? Hmm let me go search it out.

Josephine: "No one should have to live somewhere dirty just because it's the only way they can afford healthcare."

Lets compare that directly against what you claimed you did not say.

"No one should have to live somewhere dirty just because it's the only way they can afford healthcare."

Versus

"Just like it is insulting to say that a city is too "dirty" to live in even if you cant afford anything else."

Josephine: "My spoiled princess friends? Uhm, sure. Sure they do. Not sure what that has to do with anything, either though. What next-- wanna know what kind of cars we drive? "

So your friends who cannot afford health insurance own cell phones? Hmmm

"So what if you didnt have anybody to bring? What if nobody was available? Im finding it really hard to believe that the military relies on your friendships and romantic entanglements for your saftey."

HAHAHAHAHA. Oh God. You're an idiot. When did I say "the military relies" on anything? I said they have me bring him. It's safer. It's not safe for me to be in a crappy hotel in Joliet by myself.

Where did I say that? You said my friends. You didn't say anything about affording healthcare. You asked if my friends had phones.

Why would I say a nurse doesn't know anything about finances? They work with patients-- and, if it's like in my hospital, it's nurses who deal with medical billing. A nurse has every reason to know.

But, I already said that before. You'd just like to be selective again. :)

I don't read, in EITHER of those quotes, where I said "Too dirty to live"... I said they shouldn't have to. Again, you didn't really prove anything except that you're reading what you want to read.

Seeing that you are from Highland Park I'm surprised you would want to live in Romeoville. Granted, I've only been there a few times, but I'm not a fan of that entire area. It just seems to be lacking something, like culture or diversity or something. I just picture beige McMansions in subdivisions with names like Meadowlark Court...
Posted by: Callie at March 9, 2009 4:45 PM

Ha ha. That made me laugh! I hate all the "McMansions" they've built in Naperville. They are so ostentatious it makes me sick. And of course they have 3-4 people living in 6800 square feet. Ugh!

And what the heck is it with subdivisions? Can't we just go back to "blocks?" Kids can't just ride their bike "around the block" anymore. It's just not right! :)

Josephine: "HAHAHAHAHA. Oh God. You're an idiot. When did I say "the military relies" on anything? I said they have me bring him. It's safer. It's not safe for me to be in a crappy hotel in Joliet by myself."

So then it was an optional thing right? If theyre worried for your safety, then there would be some sort of protocol, not just bring your civilian boytoy.

Josephine: "Where did I say that? You said my friends. You didn't say anything about affording healthcare. You asked if my friends had phones."

What are you talking about? Will you please read my post?

I posted...

"You might hear it all the time though, based on who you have as friends; people who cant stomach living in Joilet to make ends meet and afford health insurance. Again, do these friends of yours own cell phones, internet connections? "

Im talking those friends you claimed who could not afford an additional 100 bucks a month for insurance. Do they have cell phones, internet, etc?

Josephine: "Why would I say a nurse doesn't know anything about finances? They work with patients-- and, if it's like in my hospital, it's nurses who deal with medical billing. A nurse has every reason to know.

But, I already said that before. You'd just like to be selective again. :)"

Well you may have a point here, but it still stands that you were trying to belittle Glynn by calling her a janitor period. You could have simplified the confusion and said "you must not work in a hospital." You used the term janitor in a derogatory way. Just think about it like this. If you were a janitor would you not be offended by the statement? Its obvious what would happen.

Josephine: "I don't read, in EITHER of those quotes, where I said "Too dirty to live"... I said they shouldn't have to. Again, you didn't really prove anything except that you're reading what you want to read. "

Uhm....if you dont read it in either quote then what the heck are you arguing about? One of the quotes is the one you were claiming you never said. I was showing that the quote you were refuting was nearly identical to your original quote. What on God's green Earth are you talking about "not in either quote?!"

Regardless, your claim was that Joilet was dirty and was therefore not a suitable choice for a move from the city. Or do you disagree and now think that Joilet is acceptable?

Also, why do you continue to avoid the question about BC and activation, Josephine?

But then, who wants a big, noisy dog?

Posted by: Janet at March 9, 2009 6:08 PM

Me!!!!! And the funny thing is, I had no idea until we had him.

Anon was me! (And my dawg!)

Remember a few years ago when the two Navy (I think) guys fell overboard with a woman and one of the guys was found naked in the ocean? He said he took off his clothes to use as floatation (which is one of the first things the Navy, and the Boy Scouts for that matter, tell you to do) but his superiors didn't believe him? He said he and his buddy jumped in to save the woman who was apparently drunk.

Now the one guy (they never found the other) was discharged from the Navy for "conduct unbecoming" because it was thought that he and this woman were having sex and then somehow fell overboard. (Personally I think his story is more plausible than the one the Navy came up with but whatever.) What I want to know is how this guy gets discharged because he may or may not have had sex with this woman on a vacation cruise but the National Guard is A Okay with Josephine bringing her boyfriend on a weekend training.

Glynn, you're right! Something DOES stink in Denmark.

Elisabeth-- have you ever been to a free clinic? Don't you dare tell me those people get good care. :) You do realize how COMPETITVE being a doctor is? The doctors that aren't the best get the jobs that aren't the best. Having more money gets you better care, and that's how it works in America. I see people get turned away from the practice every time I work because their insurance isn't good enough and they can't afford us otherwise.

Get over yourself... many brilliant, fine doctors volunteer at free clinics because they have these things called a HEART and COMPASSION.

Just because you are all about the almighty dollar don't paint everyone else with your brush.

Also, I said it takes the same amount of time. Residents don't spend more time working than doctors. If anything, they spend less. I don't know where you're going with that.

And, I believe I said the salary differences came with experience. By the way, $100,000-- not really that much money. Malpractice insurance costs more than $100,000.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 1:04 PM

What are you smoking? Seriously... do you have any clue the hours residents put in??? (I'm going to have to tell a few of the residents at work you said this just to see the expression on their faces....)

"So then it was an optional thing right? If theyre worried for your safety, then there would be some sort of protocol, not just bring your civilian boytoy."

No, obviously, you're wrong. They suggested I bring him, first of all-- they know him, since he comes to the dinners and what not with me, and they hear about him a lot. If not, they'd suggest I bring someone else. It's not like this is a mandate for hundreds of soldiers. I'm the only one doing this particular thing. You apparently can't grasp the concept.

"Im talking those friends you claimed who could not afford an additional 100 bucks a month for insurance. Do they have cell phones, internet, etc?"

No.

"Regardless, your claim was that Joilet was dirty and was therefore not a suitable choice for a move from the city. Or do you disagree and now think that Joilet is acceptable?"

Uhm, neither. You said that I claimed Joliet was "too dirty to live in" which I didn't. You just made it up, because it sounded the worst.

I'm sorry, Kristen-- did I say I was doing weekend training? I don't think I did. :)

Elisabeth, if you don't care about the "almighty dollar" you wouldn't mind helping people pay for their healthcare. I don't mind one bit. Which of us cares about the "almighty dollar" more in that sense, Elisabeth?

Ha ha. That made me laugh! I hate all the "McMansions" they've built in Naperville. They are so ostentatious it makes me sick. And of course they have 3-4 people living in 6800 square feet. Ugh!

And what the heck is it with subdivisions? Can't we just go back to "blocks?" Kids can't just ride their bike "around the block" anymore. It's just not right! :)

Hee. You guys do have it bad in Naperville, don't you? I think the McMansion may have been invented there. I'm relieved to hear that you don't live in one!

My cousin lives in one of those subdivisions, near 75th st. She's lived there for 12 years, and I visit her at least twice a year, but I still get lost. Every time.

"What are you smoking? Seriously... do you have any clue the hours residents put in??? (I'm going to have to tell a few of the residents at work you said this just to see the expression on their faces....)"

Yes, they put in a lot of hours. So do doctors. I'll have to tell the doctors I work with that there are actually people in the world that think residents were longer hours than doctors.

By the way, Elisabeth-- you do realize MANY hospitals enforce strict 12-hour work days because of the rise of cases of malpractice?? Residents at the hospital I work at in Champaign and Chicago both make sure residents, doctors, interns, nurses... all work 12 hour days, max.

Josephine: "Why would I say a nurse doesn't know anything about finances? They work with patients-- and, if it's like in my hospital, it's nurses who deal with medical billing. A nurse has every reason to know.

What on earth are you talking about? Nurses don't handle BILLING. Nurses handle nursing duties... that doesn't include BILLING.

Oh dear heavens if they tried to foist that off on us on top of all of our other duties (which include taking care of the patient, which I'm not sure you're aware of) there would be a riot.

The only time I even known what my patient's insurance status is is when I have to determine which SVN to give them on a weekend when the case managers are on call but not onsite.

I walk into a room and treat a patient... I don't worry about their payment or their insurance. There is this entire department to handle that... I take care of patients.

Glynn, I'm with you. Josephine is a fake. No nurse would say the things she says.

Callie,

I think the McMansion was "invented" in Lake Forest or Hinsdale, 20 or 30 years ago, well before Naperville was a "boom town". Now's the time to get a good deal on a nice house for the first time buyer who doesn't have to worry about selling their house. There are several in foreclosure...

"What on earth are you talking about? Nurses don't handle BILLING. Nurses handle nursing duties... that doesn't include BILLING."

Uhm, working in billing is a job RN's at BOTH hospitals I work at do. BOTH. I didn't say it's the SAME nurses that work with the patients. Our billing deptartment only has RNs working. Who works in the billing deptartment in YOUR hospitals if it's not a nurse? I don't even understand how that would work.

Also, nurses are the ones that register patients when they come into the ER. The ones that deal with their paperwork.

Just because YOUR nursing duties dont't cover those things, doesn't mean it's not nurses that do them.

Obviously Glynn is familiar with those things, or at least pretending to be, because she was saying she knows about that stuff also.

Elisabeth, if you don't care about the "almighty dollar" you wouldn't mind helping people pay for their healthcare. I don't mind one bit. Which of us cares about the "almighty dollar" more in that sense, Elisabeth?

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 7:18 PM

Obviously you know nothing about me. I fully support AHCCCS (pronounced Access) because it works. That stands for Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System. It is the Arizona version of Medicaid. (Since I doubt you realize it, Medicare is for seniors and Medicaid is for other people who require help such as low income or disability).

In order to receive AHCCCS you must be a citizen or legal alien (don't tell me we turn illegals away because we don't, they just don't qualify for AHCCCS) and you cannot have a drug conviction. Children of those who have drug convictions ARE eligible to be covered, we don't hold their parents' crimes against the children here.

AHCCCS is a perfect example of how we don't need socialized medicine in order to care for the needy.

You have no idea what you are talking about and I have never once stated that I was against helping people. I don't work at County for the lovely environment and the wealthy patients. I work there because I make a difference in the lives of children who really, really need me. (Even got a certificate of excellence from my boss this morning as I was leaving work for my diligence in catching a med error written by an exhausted, overworked resident.)

You offer the same liberal claptrap... we care for the poor because we want rich people taxed! (But hey, as we've all seen amply demonstrated since Obama took office, rich Democrats don't pay taxes!)

I don't need any government rule telling me to take care of others. I don't need any government tax forcing me to pony up my money to help them. I have this thing called a conscience that tells me it is the right thing to do and so I voluntarily give of my time and resources (more time than resources, as my resources are limited). I don't need the government doing it on my behalf. I'm what they call an ADULT... I can do responsible things for others all on my own.

"What on earth are you talking about? Nurses don't handle BILLING. Nurses handle nursing duties... that doesn't include BILLING."

Uhm, working in billing is a job RN's at BOTH hospitals I work at do. BOTH. I didn't say it's the SAME nurses that work with the patients. Our billing deptartment only has RNs working. Who works in the billing deptartment in YOUR hospitals if it's not a nurse? I don't even understand how that would work.

Also, nurses are the ones that register patients when they come into the ER. The ones that deal with their paperwork.

Just because YOUR nursing duties dont't cover those things, doesn't mean it's not nurses that do them.

Obviously Glynn is familiar with those things, or at least pretending to be, because she was saying she knows about that stuff also.

We have registration clerks who handle registration. They aren't RNs. What a waste.

We have medical billers who handle medical billing. They aren't RNs. What a waste.

Are you thinking of case managers? That's a whole different thing and DOES require the skills and understanding of an RN.

Janet, you may be right about the "invention" of the McMansion, but I do think Naperville has "pefected" them! At least the cookie-cutter variety. Have you seen some of those crazy new homes in Hinsdale? My daughter had to see a specialist at Hinsdale hospital a few years back and we would cruise around the area after her appointments ogling some of the giant tacky palaces.

Now would be a great time to snatch up a good deal on a first house. Unfortunately, we bought our home four years ago, at the real estate "peak." It kills me to look at home prices now, in our neighborhood and neighborhoods that were out of our reach for us when we were looking! At least we're not in danger of foreclosing.

"During his fifth year as Vice President, in the late summer of 1973,Spiro Agnew was under investigation by the United States Attorney’s office in Baltimore, Maryland, on charges of extortion, tax fraud, bribery, and conspiracy.
He was never convicted and after resignation and disbarment, paid a boatload of money for back taxes and bribery."

McCain didn't pay property taxes on his home in San Diego.

Ted Stevens didn't pay taxes, but DID end up paying backtaxes. (This was before all his other charges this past year.)

You were saying something about Democrats not paying taxes, I believe?

"Are you thinking of case managers? That's a whole different thing and DOES require the skills and understanding of an RN.
Posted by: Elisabeth at March 9, 2009 8:00 PM

No. I'm talking about RNs. I work with them every week. I'm not allowed to do these jobs yet because I'm not an RN.

I'd just like to make one more note about Joliet. I know it's "dirty" and "gross", but it is also an almost perfect mirror to America's demographics in general.

Joliet:As of the census[1] of 2000, there were 106,221 people, 36,182 households, and 25,399 families residing in the city. (More recent special census (2007) data puts the population number at 145,800 according to city officials.) The population density was 2,790.9 people per square mile (1,077.6/km²). There were 38,176 housing units at an average density of 1,003.1/sq mi (387.3/km²). The racial makeup of the city was 69.32% White, 18.16% African American, 0.28% Native American, 1.14% Asian, 0.02% Pacific Islander, 8.97% from other races, and 2.09% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 18.41% of the population.

There were 36,182 households out of which 38.8% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 51.9% were married couples living together, 13.3% had a female householder with no husband present, and 29.8% were non-families. 24.7% of all households were made up of individuals and 10.0% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.81 and the average family size was 3.39.

The median income for a household in the city was $47,761, and the median income for a family was $55,870. Males had a median income of $41,909 versus $29,100 for females. The per capita income for the city was $19,390. About 7.7% of families and 10.8% of the population were below the poverty line, including 13.5% of those under age 18 and 8.2% of those age 65 or over.

A special census conducted in 2006 pegged the city's population at a certified 142,700. Joliet is currently the fastest-growing city in the Midwest and the 12th-fastest-growing city in the United States among cities with more than 100,000 people.[5]

United States as a whole: Race/Ethnicity (2007)[122]
White 80.0%
African American 12.8%
Asian 4.4%
Native American and Alaskan Native 1.0%
Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander 0.2%
Multiracial 1.6%
Hispanic or Latino (of any race) 15.1%

According to the United States Census Bureau, the pretax median household income in 2007 was $50,233

11–15% of Americans live below the poverty line every year, and 58.5% spending at least one year in poverty between the ages of 25 and 75.

Source, wiki of Joliet, US.

Looks like Joliet is actually doing better in terms of population above the poverty line than the US as a whole. Also, it's a fast growing area which typically means that the population is upwardly mobile.

So, I guess Joliet isn't as icky as previously claimed. It's a typical middle class suburb, albiet one with a slightly higher ethnic population than the United States as a whole. Care to retract your statemens disparaging the city, Josphine?

And the entire medical billing department is staffed by RNs? You're really going to claim that? Give me the name of the hospital, I will call them myself to verify that amazing detail.

No, I don't Lauren. Because I've been there a lot, and you haven't been there once. :) Also, I didn't know poverty or race had anything to do with being dirty?

Uhm, you can try calling all the hospitals in the Chicago area, but I'm not going to tell the entire internet where I work. Especially after they've seen pictures and know my name, AND that my father is a doctor at this hospital.

I've already voiced my concern about safety. Give me a break. Anyone who'd do that would be stupid.

"
And the entire medical billing department is staffed by RNs?"

By the way, if by "entire" you mean all three or four people, then yes.

Josephine: "Uhm, neither. You said that I claimed Joliet was "too dirty to live in" which I didn't. You just made it up, because it sounded the worst. "

Okay, Ill grant you the lie because it doesnt hurt my argument anyways.

Your poor friends can apparently move to Joliet and rent an apartment for 50-66% less money and then afford healthcare. We dont need nationalized healthcare.

That was me just now.

Also, Josephine, would you mind explaining what dirty even means?

Also, why are you still not answering my question about your view on BC and activation??

You'll grant me the lie? Where did I say Joliet was "too dirty to live in"..?? You try to be smug, and then when I say you're lying, you still try to be smug. It's pretty hilarious.

Uhm, and you're apparently ignoring the people that agree with me that a single young person should NOT live in any neighborhood in Joliet that you're talking about.

It's okay, but tell me, is Rush Limbaugh your idol? If not, he probably should be. :)

Josephine: "No, I don't Lauren. Because I've been there a lot, and you haven't been there once. :) Also, I didn't know poverty or race had anything to do with being dirty?"

The problem is that you are a stuck up brat, so your opinions are no good. Why do you think this city is unsafe or dirty? What is dirty? You are working off of a stereotype established by your spoiled upbringing.

You know what else I find amusing, that Josephine knows so much about the financial aspects of public hospitals because her dad is a bigwig on a board. My dad was a firefighter, do you think I know that much about how to fight a fire? I know a few basic things, but nothing that would allow me to claim any authority. Everything about Josephine comes across as fake. I get the idea that she likes to project things that are "almost" reasonable. For example, maybe her dad applied to be on a board, but was rejected. Maybe she asked if her boyfriend would be allowed to come, instead of her superiors asking her to bring her boyfriend. Its the internet so she can twist this all a little bit. Have you even really ever been to Joilet? Or is your "experience" driving through the city a few times?

How small is this hospital?? 3 or 4 people in medical billing is pretty small.

If you lived in a rural area I might buy that... but Chicago???

Wow, Oliver. You're a condescending asshole, and it's hilarious.

I'll make up some stuff about Oliver.

Oliver is bitter because instead of having a future, he grades the tests of kids who do have futures. It makes him sick to see people pass him up in life, and he's very jealous of everyone, so he tries to bring them down. This doesn't work, because most people can see you're a condescending asshole, who, when you AREN'T right, just pretend you are and then insult everyone else. Makes me pretty sad.

Oh, and Oliver, you don't "apply" to be on a board at a hospital. You get appointed. Have I ever been to Joliet? Ah, as a matter of fact, I signed away a lot of life in the Armory there, and continue to spend time at the Armory there. :)

Josephine you said nothing in your post whatsoever.

And good job on the stereotypes. Youre just full of them! Ive never listened to Rush, although now that Ive heard him through the news, I may give him a try sometime.

And just to point out the lie for good ol times....

Josephine: "No one should have to live somewhere dirty just because it's the only way they can afford healthcare. Especially when you get into family situations."

Josephine: "Oliver, then you've NEVER been to Joliet. It's a disgusting, poor city. And honestly, pretty terrifying for a young couple. "

Josephine: "Joliet is gross and scary, and I'm not sorry about that. I wouldn't EVER live in Joliet because I wouldn't feel safe. "

Josephine: "That's the most disgusting city I've ever been in."

Keep in mind that the crime statistics are pretty low.

"The problem is that you are a stuck up brat, so your opinions are no good."

Oh Oliver, dripping in honey!

Josephine,

Seems to me that Ive admited I was wrong a few times already. Ask Asitis. Ive never seen you admit you were mistaken. You only deflect the questions you cant answer. Lets add them up.

What makes a city dirty?

What specifically about Joiler makes it dirty?

If it isnt "too dirty" to live in, then do you agree that those who cannot afford health care in the city could easily move to Joilet and save money?

What does hormonal BC do to prevent activation if it has already failed to prevent ovulation?

When does activation occur?

Why wont you answer pointed questions?

Asitis: "Oh Oliver, dripping in honey!"

Just like what Josephine posted about me right Asitis?

Besides, can you read how elitist Josephine is coming across here? Even pro-choice posters are coming down on her. Heck, even the poster that was semi-defending her admited how spoiled she is sounding. Surely you arent blind to this as well?

O...........Oliver, not getting your point?

Oh, and, as for their "low" crime statistics,

Robbery: 164
Aggravated Assault: 383
Burglary: 883
Larceny or Theft: 2,853
Car Theft: 290
Arson: 64

Those are the numbers you left out when you talked about "only" have fourteen murders.

Asitis: "Oh Oliver, dripping in honey!"

Just like what Josephine posted about me right Asitis?

Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 8:55 PM

What, you mean AFTER you were so insulting? You deserved at least that Oliver. Problem is though, I think she may have cut too close to the quick. Just a guess.

Oliver, why am I an elitist? Lemme know. I'd love to hear your point of view. I value it soo much. :)

By the way, I've answered ALL of your questions, you just don't like my answers. You're going to keep asking until you get answers you like. I've seen you do it to other people, and I'm not going to just be here for you to mess with me. It seems bizarre that someone like you could possibly tell ME to grow up, because you are, apparently, fourteen.

Sorry, I must have missed this:

How small is this hospital?? 3 or 4 people in medical billing is pretty small.

If you lived in a rural area I might buy that... but Chicago???
Posted by: Elisabeth at March 9, 2009 8:47 PM

Honestly, Elisabeth, I have no idea what is normal. The hospital I work at in Champaign only has three people (or if there are more, I've never seen them) working in medical billing, also... and those are regular 8-5, Monday through Friday jobs.

Janet, you may be right about the "invention" of the McMansion, but I do think Naperville has "pefected" them! At least the cookie-cutter variety. Have you seen some of those crazy new homes in Hinsdale? My daughter had to see a specialist at Hinsdale hospital a few years back and we would cruise around the area after her appointments ogling some of the giant tacky palaces.

Now would be a great time to snatch up a good deal on a first house. Unfortunately, we bought our home four years ago, at the real estate "peak." It kills me to look at home prices now, in our neighborhood and neighborhoods that were out of our reach for us when we were looking! At least we're not in danger of foreclosing.

Ha ha. That was me that posted this. I put Janet's name in the name box as I was addressing her, instead of putting my own name there. I guess Daylight Savings Time is hitting me pretty hard...

Josephine: "By the way, I've answered ALL of your questions, you just don't like my answers."

No you specifically havent answered one of those questions. I defy you to find a post in which you did.

I dont ask questions until I get the answers I want. You can ask Asitis. I admited when I misinterpreted one of her responses and since stopped asking the question over it. I ask questions until I get A response Josephine. You have yet to provide a single response.

And for those crime statistics, still not that bad for a suburb of that size. Youll find those rates worse in many many other cities and suburbs. For my hometown the violent crime rate was rather similar, if not a bit higher in some cases.

Asitis: "What, you mean AFTER you were so insulting? You deserved at least that Oliver. Problem is though, I think she may have cut too close to the quick. Just a guess. "

So its okay when she insults me, as long as I do it first?

And as far as "cutting too close to the quick," Im afraid she doesnt even understand my job. I dont even grade tests. Even if I did, itd be like making fun of a school teacher for just grading worksheets all day. Not very accurate I must say.

Josephine: "or if there are more, I've never seen them"

Thats hits pretty close to the point. Youve never seen them. How can you be so sure about the financial operations of your apparently huge hospital if you arent even sure whether or not 3 people handle the entire job on their own?

Okay, the only public hospital I could find so far in Champaign was Carle Foundation Hospital.

In their registration center (a job you said was performed by RNs... were you thinking triage maybe?)... registration is performed by Business Services Representatives.

Here is the listing:
Business Service Representative
Department: Registration Center
Schedule: Full-time
Shift: Days
Hours: M-F, 7AM-3PM, wknd/holiday rotation, min 2 on-calls/mth
Job Details: SUMMARY: This position works in the Emergency department performing registration functions in an effective and efficient manner to enhance coding, billing and case coordination efforts. Makes appropriate independent decisions that require assessment, reasoning and resolution regarding financial requirements to assure appropriate reimbursement for both the patient and the hospital. Interprets and applies hospital policies regarding financial resources and arrangements. Uses exquisite customer service skills when handling patient encounters/issues.

EDUCATION: High School degree or equivalent required. Associates Degree preferred.

EXPERIENCE: Minimum of one year post-high school education in business, healthcare or finance required or one year work experience in related business, healthcare or finance position required.

OTHER SKILLS: Medical Terminology I & II required within first year; keyboarding ability required. Deals effectively with stressful situations and maintains composure at all times. Ability to prioritize and multi-task for long periods of time. Insurance knowledge and billing processes a plus.

Then there is a priority function of billing, certified coders....

Certified Coder
Department: Health Information Services
Schedule: PRN
Shift: Days
Hours: Scheduled and requested to work on an as needed basis
Job Details: SUMMARY: Assigns ICD and CPT codes to hospital records in an accurate and timely manner, ensuring compliance with all applicable federal and state regulations.

EDUCATION: High School degree or equivalent is required. Associates degree is preferred.

LICENSURE/CERTIFICATIONS: Health Information Professional (RHIA, RHIT, CPC or CCS) is required.

EXPERIENCE: 3-5 years prior experience coding inpatient and/or outpatient hospital records.

OTHER SKILLS: Knowledge of ICD-9-CM and CPT coding rules and guidelines, ability to work with others and communicate effectively, both orally and in writing. Knowledge of medical science, anatomy and physiology required. Ability to perform computer data entry. Experience with encoders or other coding software packages.

They also have accountants in billing:
Charge Master Coordinator
Department: Patient Accounting
Schedule: Full-time
Shift: Days
Hours: M-F, 8:00 AM - 5:00 PM
Job Details: SUMMARY: Formulates and maintains the chargemaster to optimize revenue generation, maintains compliance with third party payor requirements, initiates departmental reviews and provides reports and feedback to management.

EDUCATION: Bachelors degree required. Masters degree preferred.

EXPERIENCE: 5 years experience in healthcare financial, information systems, or health information

OTHER SKILLS: Must have knowledge of various medical record coding systems, general ledger codes, revenue codes and pricing methodologies used in healthcare. Must have excellent analytical and problem-solving skills as well as the ability to work with a diverse group of employees with varying levels of knowledge. Must understand compliance issues, their importance, consequences and a detailed knowledge of various payment systems. Must have knowledge and skill in using personal computers to research databases and internet sites, complete financial analysis(spreadsheets) and report generation. Must have skill in networking both directly through colleagues and professional organizations along with the ability to network through internet news groups, organizations, and list serves. Knowledge of healthcare financial computer systems, accounts receivable systems, and chargemasters is essential.

They also have Patient Accounting Representatives:
Patient Accounting Representative
Department: Patient Accounting
Schedule: Full-time
Shift: Days
Hours: M-F, 8:00 AM - 5:00 PM
Job Details: SUMMARY: In an automated office environment, the patient accounting representative provides accurate, timely, and courteous customer service to internal and external customers. Utilizing mainframe and pc-based software, analyzes, posts, and reports reimbursements and contractual allowances. Provides guidelines and assistance with governmental payor rules and regulations to ensure compliance and an efficient billing and collection process.

EDUCATION: High School degree or equivalent required.

EXPERIENCE: 2 years previous office experience

OTHER SKILLS: Must have excellent interpersonal and analytical skills, have knowledge of collection laws, software packages such as Office 97, and basic accounting principals.

and Patient Accounting Techs...
Patient Accounting Tech
Department: Patient Accounting
Schedule: Full-time
Shift: Days
Hours: M-F, 8:00 AM - 5:00 PM
Job Details: SUMMARY: Calculates charges, payments and contractual allowances and edits, corrects, and processes standardized billing forms in accordance with third party rules and regulations in an automated office environment. Works with ancillary departments, HRC, HIS, and other patient accounting staff to ensure accurate information is submitted for payment in a timely and efficient manner.

EDUCATION: High School degree or equivalent required.

OTHER SKILLS: Must have knowledge of medical terminology, basic diagnostic coding, and accounting principles. Requires PC and mainframe experience and typing skills.

... Senior Patient Accounting Reps...
Senior Patient Accounting Rep
Department: Patient Accounting
Schedule: Full-time
Shift: Days
Hours: M-F, 8:00 AM - 5:00 PM
Job Details: SUMMARY: Maintains a variety of complex software packages and systems to support the patient accounting functions. Functions as a liaison and resource for staff, customers, patients, vendors, and management, and implements system modifications as needed. This position will focus on 3rd party liability collections and training responsibilities for collection staff members.

EDUCATION: Associates degree in Accounting or equivalent required. Bachelors degree in Accounting or equivalent preferred.

EXPERIENCE: 2 years previous office experience

OTHER SKILLS: Must have excellent interpersonal and analytical skills, be proficient with personal computers and financial software, be familiar with mainframe computer systems, and have a good working knowledge of accounting principals.

All in all I saw at least seven openings on the website... http://www.carle.org/careers/apply/index.aspx

That's just the open positions. Obviously more than 3 or 4 people work in that area.

These are wonderful professionals, all trained specifically in the areas of registration, billing, coding, and accounting. None of those job listings required an RN.... there is a shortage of RNs nationwide and that would be an inefficient use of RNs, not to mention, those jobs require training that is NOT covered in nursing school.

Oooh, crime is okay as long as it's not violent. I understand. And, as for it being "a suburb of that size"... it's not much over 100,000. What are you talking about?

Oliver, why is it okay for you to insult me but not for me to insult you? Especially since, as you've said, I'm "just a child".

Josephine I think it's more a case of Oliver deciding he has something to prove and not really listening to what the other person is saying. And if you don't go along with him and instead stick to your guns he just gets insulting.

Josephine,

Its fine to insult me. I dont care. I just find it funny that Asitis is so upset over it when I do it, but loves you when you insult me. Besides, at least my insults are accurate.

Also, Joilet was 150,000 in 2007 and is one of, if not the, fastest growing suburbs, which is interesting because as the city grows the crime statistics have been consistently dropping.

When did I say crim is "okay?" I just said the numbers are relatively low and comparable to other middle income suburbs. If you cant afford insurance, you cant be picky about where you live, even if Josephine finds it dirty, whatever that means.

Are you still not going to answer my questions Josephine?

So its okay when she insults me, as long as I do it first?

And as far as "cutting too close to the quick," Im afraid she doesnt even understand my job. I dont even grade tests. Even if I did, itd be like making fun of a school teacher for just grading worksheets all day. Not very accurate I must say.

Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 9:18 PM

I'm not saying it's okay necessarily, but you did leave that door wide open for her. She was just giving you a taste of your own medicine Oliver.

Grading papers? That's what you're upset about? Really?

Anon was me.... obvi

Elisabeth, I don't work at Carle.

Fine... the premise still holds... that is a public hospital in the same city you claim to work in. It is representative of how things work in YOUR area. I know how they work in my area, and it is the same as what I have listed... but just so you can't claim that Arizona is different from Illinois, I just gave concrete proof of how it works in YOUR EXACT CITY.

Asitis: "Grading papers? That's what you're upset about? Really?"

No Im actually specifically not upset about it. The point was that even in an attempt to insult, Josephine shows off her immaturity and ignorance.

Asitis: "Josephine I think it's more a case of Oliver deciding he has something to prove and not really listening to what the other person is saying. And if you don't go along with him and instead stick to your guns he just gets insulting. "

I find it interesting that "sticking to your guns" is the same as "evading questions."

I also like how much BS you just said about me. Did I not agree that I was mistaken over the Monty Hall problem?

Oliver: Its fine to insult me. I dont care. I just find it funny that Asitis is so upset over it when I do it, but loves you when you insult me. Besides, at least my insults are accurate.

Oh c'mon Oliver.... so upset? Hardly. Where do you get that? And as for her insulting you, I could excuse that because you brought it on in spades. You've got a funny way of looking at things Oliver.

" Besides, at least my insults are accurate."

No, they're random crap you make up. You're like a bored twelve year old girl. You just make crap up for fun.

Also, the "150,000" is estimated. The last time a census was taken, there were 106,000 people. Joliet does NOT take it's own census.

"No Im actually specifically not upset about it. The point was that even in an attempt to insult, Josephine shows off her immaturity and ignorance. "

And you showed your class and dignity. Do you wear a monocle? You probably do... I can tell by how sophisticated your insults are.

" Besides, at least my insults are accurate."

No, they're random crap you make up. You're like a bored twelve year old girl. You just make crap up for fun.

Also, the "150,000" is estimated. The last time a census was taken, there were 106,000 people. Joliet does NOT take it's own census.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 9:33 PM

What, you mean like RNs handling medical billing and administering medications that no nurse anywhere is allowed to administer?

I also like how much BS you just said about me. Did I not agree that I was mistaken over the Monty Hall problem?

Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 9:32 PM

BS? I don't know about that Oliver.

Asitis: "Grading papers? That's what you're upset about? Really?"

No Im actually specifically not upset about it. The point was that even in an attempt to insult, Josephine shows off her immaturity and ignorance.

Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 9:30 PM

Right and you starting it off by calling her a spolied brat shows off your incredible maturity Oliver. And saying her father tried to get on a board and was rejected shows your knowledge.

C'mon Oliver. You're not doing yourself any favors here.

When did I say RNs could administer medication no nurse is allowed to administer? What are you talking about?

Also, Elisabeth, you found one hospital in the city my school is in that doesn't work like that. I work at TWO that do. Not sure what your point is, still. It's like you're arguing just to argue, and it's pretty annoying.

No Josephine you claimed YOU administered medications as a medic that NO nurse could administer.

Not sure what my point is? My point is you're either ignorant of how your hospital works or you're lying.

Anon @ 9:38 was me again. Doh!I have to get off my husband's laptop and back on mine!

"No Josephine you claimed YOU administered medications as a medic that NO nurse could administer."

Actually, when I was talking about having responsibilities like that, we were also talking about me being in the field. I believe the majority of the conversation was about breaks and what not. That's a pretty big difference than doing it in a hospital.

And I asked you... what medication can you administer that no nurse can administer. That was your claim and you have never given a med name.

Asitis: "Right and you starting it off by calling her a spolied brat shows off your incredible maturity Oliver."

She said she wouldnt live in a perfectly normal suburb because it was "gross."

She also went outside of the subject to point out that none of her family attended public school so she "realllly" didnt care about it.

Asitis: "And saying her father tried to get on a board and was rejected shows your knowledge"

When did I say that?? I was posing a hypothetical statement to possibly explain her behavior.

Josephine: "When did I say RNs could administer medication no nurse is allowed to administer?"

She didnt claim that you said that. She claimed that you said YOU adminstered drugs than no other nurse is allowed to adminster. Really, why would she say RNs, which are the majority of nurses, administer drugs that no nurse is allowed to adminster? Use some logic to understand her sentence.

Asitis: "BS? I don't know about that Oliver."

So you are saying that I did not admit I was wrong on the Monty Hall problem? Which is it Asitis?

And Josephine, why are you STILL not answering the questions? Ill trim it down a bit.

What makes a city dirty?

What does BC do to activation post fertilization?

Two questions Josephine, what harm could come from answering these questions if you are confident in your responses?

Elisabeth, where was this at?

I'm sorry, Kristen-- did I say I was doing weekend training? I don't think I did. :)

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 7:18 PM

Okay, "overnight training" then. WT...? Get over it Josephine. You are the one that said the NG had no problem with your sleeping arrangements. I'm just pointing out an inconsistency. Why don't you go back to playing in the sandbox? That's obviously where you belong since you throw out a bunch of nonsense and then get snippy when someone calls you on it, never offering any proof to the contrary.

Josephine: "That's a pretty big difference than doing it in a hospital."

When did Elisabeth claim that you did this in a hospital? She was asking you what drug you EVER in ANY circumstance adminstered. Youre deflecting again.

Dont worry Elisabeth. You are the only one trying to get answers to questions from that thread. She STILL wont explain what she meant back there about activation. Its amazing.

Oh, dear heavens, you want me to go back through dozens of threads and find it??? Give me some time, but this is just another way of stalling... you refused to answer on THAT thread and you've consistently refused when I asked you on the threads that follow.

WHAT MEDICATION WERE YOU ALLOWED TO ADMINISTER AS A MEDIC THAT NO NURSE CAN ADMINISTER???

She said she wouldnt live in a perfectly normal suburb because it was "gross."

She also went outside of the subject to point out that none of her family attended public school so she "realllly" didnt care about it.

It ISN'T a normal suburb. You've never BEEN there. STOP pretending. And, when I said I didn't care about public schools, maybe we should mention that the rate of the schools in the area was brought up. Which I DON'T care about.

Oliver, I've answered your questions and you didn't like my answers. You're being a prick to be a prick, and it's getting old. You're just making stuff up. If you don't like my answers, you don't. I'm not going to change my answers so you're happy.

She wont answer Elisabeth. She wont answer the simple questions I am asking her either. What does she have to lose if she really knows the answers?

I actually want you to go back through because I didn't say I could "administer" medication at all. We don't exactly have a pharmacy in the field. That's why I want you to find what I said. That's why it matters. What "thread that followed", Elisabeth? I have only brought that up in ONE thread, and you didn't read it correctly, apparently.

Kristen, it's not TRAINING of any kind. I said it's something I have to do for the guard. It's not training. At all. Okay? I don't know how I can press that in your head anymore.

Asitis: "BS? I don't know about that Oliver."

So you are saying that I did not admit I was wrong on the Monty Hall problem? Which is it Asitis?
Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 9:49 PM

I'm not saying that at all Oliver. You did admit that you were wrong (actually I think the most you would admit to is that you might be wrong) on the Monty hall thing.

But that does not mean what I said about you is BS.

Now as for these insults to Josephine. I suggest that you might want to stop trying to defend yourself, because honestly, it's not making you look any better. And that's the last I'll say on that. It's time for bed here on the east coast and I stayed up way too late last night.

Good night all.

She wont answer Elisabeth. She wont answer the simple questions I am asking her either. What does she have to lose if she really knows the answers?
Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 9:54 PM

Oliver. I have answered you. Repeatedly. I have given you every opportunity to call my school. You are just being, well, dumb.

Josephine: "It ISN'T a normal suburb."

Well so far the statistics point to it being right on the average. What makes it not so normal Josephine? You have yet to point out what makes a city "gross" or "dirty."

Josephine: "And, when I said I didn't care about public schools, maybe we should mention that the rate of the schools in the area was brought up. Which I DON'T care about."

What does that have to do with whether or not anyone in your family has gone to public school? It was completely tangential. Ridiculous.

Josephine: "Oliver, I've answered your questions and you didn't like my answers. You're being a prick to be a prick, and it's getting old. You're just making stuff up. If you don't like my answers, you don't. I'm not going to change my answers so you're happy. "

Okay, dont change your answers. Just repost them. I honestly cant find them anywhere for whatever reason and Im not trying to trick you. Just say them again. Thats all. Copy and paste, thatd be good enough.

1) What makes a city dirty or gross?

2) What effect does BC have on activation and does acitvation happen before or after implantation?

I guess technically the second question is a "two-parter."

Well, you haven't given me an opportunity to call your hospital, so I did the next best thing and you just blew it off WITH NO PROOF.

Josephine: "Oliver. I have answered you. Repeatedly. I have given you every opportunity to call my school. You are just being, well, dumb. "

Can you just not read? Did you get accepted to your school because your Dad is as you call him a "bigwig?" I dont understand. I guess I can post it in capital letters, that seemed to almost work for Elisabeth.

I DONT KNOW WHAT TO ASK YOUR SCHOOL BECAUSE YOU SAID TWO CONTRADICTING THINGS EARLIER. PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT I SHOULD ASK YOUR SCHOOL. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE EFFECT BC HAS ON ACTIVATION AND DOES ACTIVATION OCCUR BEFORE OR AFTER IMPLANTATION?

See if it works!

I can understand the privacy thing, really I can (except you gave the name of your school so I'm not sure why you would do that if you were so worried about privacy....)

Do me a favor... just cut and paste the job description and title from your hospital's employment board that says that RNs handle medical billing.

Or admit you're wrong.

Asitis: "But that does not mean what I said about you is BS."

So I admit when Im wrong. Gotcha.

Asitis: "Now as for these insults to Josephine. I suggest that you might want to stop trying to defend yourself, because honestly, it's not making you look any better. And that's the last I'll say on that. It's time for bed here on the east coast and I stayed up way too late last night."

Where am I defending myself? I just think its funny to watch your reaction to Josephine. I can assure you that I am completely calm right now with a big smile on my face. I told you before, I dont get angry very easily, and it especially doesnt happen from the kind of evasion I see from you and Josephine. You two cant take a stand on anything substantial because you are afraid of being scrutinized. Josephine is demonstrating this quite well and I hope it is sending a message to those who on the fence on the issues.

Good night all.

Minus the Goodnight all. That was a quote from Asitis, once again ducking after not really posting anything.

Robbery: 164
Aggravated Assault: 383
Burglary: 883
Larceny or Theft: 2,853
Car Theft: 290
Arson: 64

Those are the numbers you left out when you talked about "only" have fourteen murders.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 8:56 PM

If those stats bother you why are you looking to live in Chicago?

Murder: 598
Robbery: 17,302
Aggravated Assault: 19,784
Burglary: 25,064
Larceny or Theft: 96,779
Car Theft: 22,779
Arson: 947

For murders that's roughly double the number of murders per capita in Chicago than in Joliet. And the website you got your stats listed only 11 murders in Joliet. (At least the site I looked at had the same numbers that you listed for Joliet.)

The truth is that she doesnt like Joilet because it is "gross" or "dirty." Now whatever that means, I have no idea. Im guessing she doesnt like minorities.

Kristen, it's not TRAINING of any kind. I said it's something I have to do for the guard. It's not training. At all. Okay? I don't know how I can press that in your head anymore.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 9:57 PM

IT DOESN'T MATTER! I don't know how I can press THAT in your head anymore. You really are thick. That guy was dishonorably discharged when he was on LEAVE. You claim to be doing SOMETHING for the Guard and have then claim to have free reign to bring your BF with you and I call BS.

Oliver:So I admit when Im wrong. Gotcha.

Oliver. Let's be clear: I said you admitted you were wrong (or at least admitted you might be wrong) in that one case. I did not make a generalised statement. But nice try.

Oliver: I don't get angry very easily

Really? Well. I'd hate to see you really are angry then! I know it's hard to tell here, but I'm not seeing a whole lot of happy in you.

Okay, now I am off to bed. Not ducking. Not evading. Not running scared from big, bad Ollie-man! Simply going to crawl into bed with my husband. So... feel free to carr on and I'll address whatever you dish up tomorrow.

Kristen,

You fail to understand that Josephine doesnt address the questions that she is unable to answer.

Evasion will only get you so far Josephine. Goodluck on the MCAT with that mentality. If you are afraid of confronting challenges and you avoid the questions you are afraid or unable to answer, you will be destroyed on this test, and for good reasons. How would you succeed as a doctor if you simply evade complications?

You're right Oliver. Can you just see her as a doctor?

"No, I didn't say you had the flu, I said you had 'flu-like' symptoms. I can't make that any clearer to you. Gosh, you are an idiot. Oh, I see you're from Joliet, that explains it."

Kristen, the crimes in Chicago vary greatly on area. It's a VERY large city. Hence why we were talking about safe areas of the city. You can live in an unsafe area in Chicago for pretty cheap. The reason the discussion evolved into this is because of the crime rate in the bad areas of Chicago.

And, I don't care about the stats of ANYWHERE. We're not talking about MY living situation at all. I'm going to guess Oliver's opinion would be quite different if it were his daughter living in these areas. Same goes for pretty much everyone here.

"(except you gave the name of your school so I'm not sure why you would do that if you were so worried about privacy....)"

Because there are a hell of a lot more students at the University of Illinois than employees at my hospital, first of all. Second of all, because my dad's picture is on the hospitals website, and I find that incredibly creepy.

https://www4.recruitingcenter.net/Clients/UCHospitals/PublicJobs/Canviewjobs.cfm?w

Here. This will cover where I work without you knowing where I work.

Please post the job title you are referring to. I did as much, as well as the qualifications.

"IT DOESN'T MATTER! I don't know how I can press THAT in your head anymore. You really are thick. That guy was dishonorably discharged when he was on LEAVE. You claim to be doing SOMETHING for the Guard and have then claim to have free reign to bring your BF with you and I call BS."

I call bs on your story. That doesn't even make sense then. The entire story. Especially since a lot of my sergeants live with and and have children with women they aren't married to. I guess they should be discharged? Holy crap. You apparently don't know what the military even is.

Asitis: "Really? Well. I'd hate to see you really are angry then! I know it's hard to tell here, but I'm not seeing a whole lot of happy in you."

I wont say that Im happy, although I am pretty amused. I will admit that I push the other poster's buttons at times and go a bit beyond necessity, but I never, ever pull the bullshit that you and Josephine pull. I address every question and every point, usually in gross ridiculous detail. Am I angry? No. Passionate? Absolutely. My boss used to call me Banshe at UPS because of my determined style of working. Its what made me the one of the fastest, strongest and the most effecient in my building, but I wasnt angry, just intense. I guess I can see the confusion.

I learned a great lesson there too. Anger does not accomplish anything. If you really want to get someone to crack, you ask him/her the questions that he/she does not want to hear or is unable to answer. It is pretty obvious how that is going for Josephine. Look at how she is lacing grade-school insults into her frantic empty posts such as "youre a 12 year old girl" and "jackass." It is obvious to me that she just cant answer the questions.

Do any job title you want. You just wanted me to provide you with the information. I'd love for you to "prove me wrong"... because, when you can't, you can't say it's because I didn't give you the information, and maybe you'll shut up.

"The truth is that she doesnt like Joilet because it is "gross" or "dirty." Now whatever that means, I have no idea. Im guessing she doesnt like minorities."

Hahaha. Now I'm racist? Okay, well, if I'm racist, you're a pedophile. Because, like you think, we can just say completely made up things without basis in fact.

" I address every question and every point, usually in gross ridiculous detail."

I asked you a question about five times last night that you never answered. Notice how I don't keep bringing it up? :)

Josephine: "Hahaha. Now I'm racist? Okay, well, if I'm racist, you're a pedophile. Because, like you think, we can just say completely made up things without basis in fact."

Well the only thing setting Joliet apart from the average American community is the slightly higher minority rate. Besides, racists tend to refer to minorities as "dirty." What else could explain "dirty?" You obviously dont want to answer this question, so I wonder why? Must be something that you dont want to say.

Josephine, the only open jobs at this time appear to focus mostly in pharmacy. There is nothing on that website that proves my assertions that medical billing is handled by people with billing, coding and accounting skills and NOT by people who are RNs.

Again, are you confusing this with Case Management?

Josephine: " asked you a question about five times last night that you never answered. Notice how I don't keep bringing it up? :)"

What question? Ask me now and Ill gladly answer it for you. If I missed it, it was on accident I can assure you.

ROFLOL... should be "disproves"... that's what I get for posting after a weekend of really long shifts.

(BTW... taking care of poor people and giving them excellent care along with top notch doctors... when my OWN child was ill, I brought her to see them because I know how high caliber they are and wanted her to have access to the very best.)

I call bs on your story. That doesn't even make sense then.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 10:25 PM

You apparently don't listen to the news then. I guess you were about 18 when this happened so I'll let it go but you can hardly call bs on a story that had national coverage.

Josephine,

I THINK I remember your question and it was "where does the money come from?" and I said "I dont know." Which is answer to the question. However I did fint his little gem when trying to find what you are refering to.

Josephine: "Uhm, Oliver. I have healthcare through my parents."

Then later I called you on it and all of a sudden you have healthcare through your job. I think you did admit to it, but not after jumping down my thoat.

So Josephine, try again. I always answer the questions posed to me. I did there and I have in the past.

Now why wont you ans
wer my questions?

Oliver-- uhm, do you realize how prominent the black community is in Chicago, where I'm searching for apartments? Just asking? Or, how about the black community in Chambana?

Elisabeth, I'm NOT confusing it with "Case Management". I work with these women. They're RNs. They were PROMOTED to the jobs they're doing. They make more money then the RNs working with patients.

Josephine: "Oliver-- you tell me, please-- where did you assume the money came from when a patient can't cover their medical bills? PLEASE let me know. Say a man without insurance has a heart attack. Doesn't own a home, doesn't own a car, and can't go back to work--- PLEASE explain to me how you thought his hospital bills get paid for?"

"Then later I called you on it and all of a sudden you have healthcare through your job. I think you did admit to it, but not after jumping down my thoat. "

Actually, you're making stuff up again. I actually apologized and explained that I just switched to using tricare because of my deployment.

RNs who get promoted to helping people navigate their bills and the insurance system and make more money than average RNs are called...

drum roll please...

CASE MANAGERS.

Uhm. If you are a nurse that is registered, your an RN.

And, I just looked up "Case managers" and got a lot of defnitions. Not one of them says "An RN that got promoted".

On the signs in their office, it still says "RN Last name"..

Is this your way of proving me wrong? If so, it's kinda funny..

"Now why wont you ans
wer my questions?"

I'll quote you Oliver. I did and I have in the past.

Josephine,

I answered that question earlier with "I dont know, maybe they dont get paid at all."

And if not, Ill do you the courtesy of answering it here. I dont know, maybe they dont get paid at all, similarly to VISA and Mastercard when they have patients with outstanding debts.

Maybe they do the same thing that companies without funds do to their employees.

Now, I already answered that, and I answered it again because I am never afraid to asnwer a question. Care to answer my questions now Josephine?

What defines dirty or gross for a city in specific?

What effect does BC have on activation and when does activation occur in terms of implantation and fertilization.

Josephine: "I'll quote you Oliver. I did and I have in the past."

You missed part of my quote. I also anticipated your question and reposted the answer.

Why are you so afraid to do it for me?

And by the way you NEVER answered either of those questions for me. Period. I dare you to prove it.

Case Managers do far more than JUST handle billing and insurance issues, but as a part of discharge planning, those are high priorities in maintaining continuity of care.

Many of my classmates work in case management in a hospice system. I work with excellent case managers in our pediatric department who arrange for children to get home oxygen therapy, home health aides, respite care for the parents, and many other important issues.

Again... if you mean a job title other than Case Manager, state it.

Otherwise you've moved beyond ignorance here and I'm calling you out on lying about this.

"Case Managers do far more than JUST handle billing and insurance issues, but as a part of discharge planning, those are high priorities in maintaining continuity of care."

In that case, I'm not talking about case managers. I'm talking about the people that sit in the BILLING ROOM.

I like that you're "calling me out" about lying when I gave you, not only word from my personal experiences, but a link to the chain of hospitals I'm associated with. That's ridiculous.

Josephine: "Oliver-- you tell me, please-- where did you assume the money came from when a patient can't cover their medical bills? PLEASE let me know. Say a man without insurance has a heart attack. Doesn't own a home, doesn't own a car, and can't go back to work--- PLEASE explain to me how you thought his hospital bills get paid for?"

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 10:37 PM

Heck, I can answer that! In 1993 I had an accident that required an ER visit with 10 subsequent days admitted in the hospital. I had just moved back to Illinois from Wisconsin and had no job. I got the bills (talk about a heart attack) and immediately called the hospital to set up a payment plan. They asked for my insurance (none) and where I worked (unemployed) and they said "Okay." Next time I got the bill it was a zero balance. I called again because I thought they made a mistake and they confirmed I wasn't working and said that the state paid. Now I don't know if they'd cover the cost of chemo but no hospital can refuse emergency care to someone who can't pay. And at least in 1993 in Illinois they didn't require me to pay. (Thank God for that, I'd still be paying the bill!)

Kristen, you actually just proved my point... so thanks!! :) Oliver and Glynn had a problem believing me. They thought you got attacked by creditors forever, because I'd been trying to explain for two freakin' hours how it worked.

This was my original answer to your question by the way. I included the timestamp so you could see.

"Did you mean that aimed at Glynn? I wasnt arguing over this I dont think. I actually conceded this point earlier. I also thought the Government covered these costs. However, according to Glynn, this is not the case. It wouldnt be the first time you claimed something without any actual support though. Im personally on the fence. I do know that collections agencies are STILL trying to collect some bills that my wife picked up when we were in college before we had insurance to cover pregnancy. So again, who knows?

Posted by: Oliver at March 9, 2009 1:12 AM"

Now where on earth did you answer what "dirty" meant?

FOUND IT!!
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2009/02/yaz_jazz.html

What are those duties Josephine? What did you personally do that makes you so knowledgeable about the human body?"

Uhm... became an lpn and a medic? You do realize I had to study and get through school for that?

PIP, the book title is in the thread when Jill went on vacation. I only didn't answer Oliver, because frankly, he was being a patronizing butt head.

TSTL, why in the world would you expect me to post a source if NEITHER you or Lauren had? She had a graph that came from a random blogger. You do realize that, right? Just saying "it's from something published" doesn't make sense. Especially because you think certain people with certain degrees that had been bought are real doctors..

"No, you said that you do work that normal nurses cant even do. I want to know what that work was exactly, not hypothetically you would do in a combat situation without any other doctors, but what you have actually done that elevates you above the average nurse, or for that matter, above the average person."

Are you kidding? What have I done that makes me know more about human biology than an average person? Aside from going to school specifically to study it?? I've set a broke leg, I've administered drugs that nurses CAN'T, I've cauterized a wound, I've actually set a broken arm.. I've done a LOT of things.

Posted by: Josephine at February 12, 2009 10:30 PM

Okeyday, Josephine, what drugs have you administered that nurses can't?

Hey, I tell it like it is. (Or was for me.) I don't know that all states do that or even if Illinois does that now but I'm very thankful it was available to me!

Now the ER doctor was a different story entirely. The hospital stay was covered though.

Josephine: "I've administered drugs that nurses CAN'T"

Ohhhh snap. Kudos to going all the way on the effort Elisabeth. Damn that was harsh.

Josephine, if you are going to claim that RNs sit in the billing office and do billing work you are going to have to tell me what the job title is or frankly, you're making it up.

I have posted job titles of those who work in billing... medical biller, medical coder, accountant, patient representative, so on and so forth.

They are NOT RNs. You have linked to nothing that proves your point as nothing on that site referenced positions in billing.

So yes, I'm calling you a liar unless you give actual details.

Okeyday, Josephine, what drugs have you administered that nurses can't?

Posted by: Elisabeth at March 9, 2009 10:57 PM

I can't WAIT to hear this!

AH! Now I know what you're talking about. I had to give a man Propofol (Propophol? don't remember), something an army nurse is not supposed to do.

Josephine, obviously not all hospitals work like this. I am STILL getting bills from Forsythe Medical Center because of an insurance snafu. In fact, they reported to the credit agencies and I've been trying for months to get everythign worked out. This was nearly 5 years ago and they're still in hot pursuit.

I guess I just picked the wrong hosptial!

Maybe your Il. hospitals forgive debts, but it's not the way that every hosptial works. I just wanted to make that point because I don't want it to become a given that every hospital in our country is forgiving debts when that isn't the case.

I despise lying. It was quite a pain, I had to go back, thread by thread and do a ctrl-F searching for "Josephine"... once I found the thread I was pretty sure was it I did a ctrl-F for "medic" and it got me where I was going...

Worth it though, not that I think she'll answer. The fact is that at this point anything that comes out of her mouth is suspect.

I HAVE to get to bed. :(

I'm betting that Josephine has slithered away, but I just wanted to tell you...

Elisabeth - YOU JUST MADE MY DAY! :)

What are you talking about? Do you know what "FINANCE" means Elisabeth??

By the way, Oliver, I like how you pretended that you agreed with me on that... when in actuality, Glynn said, "Don't concede to her" and you started telling me I was wrong. It's all up there.

Josephine: "AH! Now I know what you're talking about."

Interesting that you only now remember that memory that you were called on it. You would think that if this was in your memory that when Elisabeth said "what drugs did you adminster" you would have easily recalled the drug.

Funny how when Elisabeth says those words, they are meaningless, but when she quotes you saying only those words, you remember. Hmmmm

Posted by: Lauren at March 9, 2009 11:04 PM

I totally agree. I think I was very lucky.

Wait, are we all going to pretend I didn't answer, AGAIN? This is just getting ridiculous. You can pretend I didn't answer as many times as you want. It didn't make me answer any less, it just makes you more of liars.

"Maybe your Il. hospitals forgive debts, but it's not the way that every hosptial works. I just wanted to make that point because I don't want it to become a given that every hospital in our country is forgiving debts when that isn't the case."

I never said ALL hospitals worked that way. I was straight up called a liar, and here is someone ELSE with personal experience of an Illinois hospital, and her experience was EXACTLY what I described. They'll have to concede that they were wrong, or that Kristen is a liar too. They can't have both ways.

Now, since we're pretending I didn't answer anyway... I'm going to go study.

"Funny how when Elisabeth says those words, they are meaningless, but when she quotes you saying only those words, you remember. Hmmmm"

Actually it was because she coupled it with the broken leg. I thought she was talking about prescription meds and was confused. Not that big of a concept..

Josephine: "By the way, Oliver, I like how you pretended that you agreed with me on that... when in actuality, Glynn said, "Don't concede to her" and you started telling me I was wrong. It's all up there. "

Read it again. I know its hard to follow multiple threads of a conversation, but try real hard. Once Glynn explained it to me, it seemed extremely absurd.

Now, at least you admit that I answered the question. What was all that made up stuff about me not answering your question? Did you just find a question that you asked me randomly and pretend like I didnt answer it? Whats wrong with you.

By the way, care to post where you answered my question of "what makes a city dirty?"

Good luck, I didnt see it anywhere, but maybe I missed it.

Josephine: "Now, since we're pretending I didn't answer anyway... I'm going to go study. "

Notice how she again leaves without answering ONE single question.

What did you mean by this last night...

Josephine: "I'll be back tomorrow. :) Just don't forget your questions. "

Dont forget my questions so that I can continue to ask you and you can run away?

Honestly, what the hell is wrong with you? How can you be in college and not be able to answer a couple really simple questions? Are you that afraid of me? Its ridiculous.

At least the other pro-lifers and pro-choicers know what a stuck up ignorant kid you really are.

Josephine: " I thought she was talking about prescription meds and was confused..."

Right. Pretty convenient, yet again. Did you really forget that experience until she brought up setting a broken leg? Maybe your poor memory would explain why you cant answer my questions. Maybe, just maybe you try to answer the question and forget midway what you are doing and never get back to me. That could conveniently explain it I suppose.

Diprivan? That's the best you've got? Only in 13 states are RNs not allowed to administer bolus Diprivan at all.

In most states RNs trained in administering Diprivan (either CRNAs or RNs trained in procedural sedation) can administer bolus Diprivan during procedural sedations.

Here is a Medscape article referencing RNs administering Diprivan in an outpatient setting: http://cme.medscape.com/viewarticle/577878_4

And that is just boluses of Diprivan. Diprivan is often given via a drip by ICU nurses. Also referred to as "Milk of Amnesia" it is important for ventilated patients in order to maintain sedation so they don't try to rip their vent out!

Actually, you DIDN'T answer. You said what I was saying makes sense, TOOK IT BACK, so I asked the question again. You never said what you thought happened, not that I saw. Never did I see you disagree with Glynn at ALL.

"crude, earthy, gross, vulgar"

Callie is right-- I have to concede. Not every area is bad. But the areas I've been in are. I've yet to see the nice areas-- but I shouldn't assume they aren't there.
Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 3:23 PM

(Notice how I explained what I meant with "gross"??)

Joliet is a large city, and I am fairly certain that most, if not all, of those 14 murders took place in a very specific area of Joliet, the area where rents run 600-700/month and where Josephine would not be safe.

Posted by: Callie at March 9, 2009 4:02 PM

Notice-- she's talking about the areas where you suggest the single uninsured person live.

"Honestly, what the hell is wrong with you? How can you be in college and not be able to answer a couple really simple questions? Are you that afraid of me? Its ridiculous."

I answered all of your questions and am in NO WAY "scared" of you. For all I know, you're a prepubescent thirteen year old boy.

"Right. Pretty convenient, yet again. Did you really forget that experience until she brought up setting a broken leg?"

No I didn't "forget the experience". The way she asked, I thought she meant I prescribed medicines. I like, Elisabeth how you say "only in some states are nurses not allowed to blah blah blah".... which, you say like it contradicts with something I say, but it doesn't. That's like the fourth time you've FAKE contradicted mean, when you actually haven't.

What are you talking about? Do you know what "FINANCE" means Elisabeth??

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 11:05 PM

Um, yes, I know what finance means... do you? Finance in a hospital setting requires registration clerks (not triage RNs), medical billing specialists (not RNs), medical coders (not RNs), and accountants (not RNs).

Do YOU know what it means??

Also think I should bring up, Elisabeth, that I'm not an RN and I was still doing it. Just so you know. Because, I don't want to come back later and someone see that I didn't correct you on that, because then they'd probably say I claimed to be an RN, which I didn't.

Posted by: Elisabeth at March 9, 2009 11:30 PM

I gave you my hospitals details. Please try and prove me wrong... please.

No I didn't "forget the experience". The way she asked, I thought she meant I prescribed medicines. I like, Elisabeth how you say "only in some states are nurses not allowed to blah blah blah".... which, you say like it contradicts with something I say, but it doesn't. That's like the fourth time you've FAKE contradicted mean, when you actually haven't.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 11:28 PM

I never asked what medications you prescribed. You can't prescribe any medications, you aren't an NP, MD or DO. I asked what medications you administered. How is that confusing?

Hint: It isn't confusing to ANY nurse.

I am aware that medics are allowed to do certain things normally reserved for RNs. My best friend in nursing school was a medic in the army for 10 years.

That doesn't change your statement.... you administered a medication that RNs can't. This is untrue.

Posted by: Elisabeth at March 9, 2009 11:30 PM

I gave you my hospitals details. Please try and prove me wrong... please.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 11:32 PM

There are no details on that site about the makeup of the billing department. There is nothing there to prove you wrong... or right.

I did post to the details of how a similar hospital in the same area ran their billing department, but apparently that isn't good enough for you.

At this point, I've already proven you to be a liar, so I believe the burden of proof falls on YOU.

Josephine: "crude, earthy, gross, vulgar""

You are supplying me with the defintion of the word gross. I teach vocabulary, I can assure you that I know what the word gross means. Lets try again. Ill post the question for how many times I have asked it in the past few posts.

Oliver :"By the way, care to post where you answered my question of "what makes a city dirty?""

"What defines dirty or gross for a city in specific?"

"What makes a city dirty or gross?"

"What makes a city dirty?"

"What specifically about Joiler makes it dirty?"

"What makes a city dirty?"

I could go on, but really I shouldnt even have to. You KNOW what I meant when I asked the question anyways. Even if I did ask it as "what does dirty mean?" a few times. Regardless there several times where I asked specifically what makes a city dirty. Please, I told you before that I dont take bullshit, dont try and pull some on me. You are just deflecting again and are obviously afraid of answering the question.

Really, gross means vulgar. What an idiot.

No I didn't "forget the experience". The way she asked, I thought she meant I prescribed medicines. I like, Elisabeth how you say "only in some states are nurses not allowed to blah blah blah".... which, you say like it contradicts with something I say, but it doesn't. That's like the fourth time you've FAKE contradicted mean, when you actually haven't.

Posted by: Josephine at March 9, 2009 11:28 PM

BTW... bolus diprivan... allowed to be administered by RNs in all but 13 states (so you can hardly say no nurse has the ability to do it) and IV drip diprivan ... allowed to be administered by RNs in all states (so you can hardly say no nurse has the ability to do it)... how is this NOT disproving you when you claimed to administer a drug nurse's can't administer?

Josephine: "Actually, you DIDN'T answer. You said what I was saying makes sense, TOOK IT BACK, so I asked the question again. You never said what you thought happened, not that I saw. Never did I see you disagree with Glynn at ALL."

I like how you are throwing in the conveniently place "that I saw." I actually did end up answering the question a second time later with "maybe they dont get any money."

Regardless I can openly answer the question now as I did before, something that you can not do and have not done.

By the way, what does it matter whether or not I disagree with Glynn? The point is that I asnwered you question and you did not answer mine.

Elisabeth, just call her hospital tomorrow. Ill do it for you if youd like. Whats the name of it?

ROFLMAO... Oliver... I'd do it in a heartbeat... if I could!!!

(BTW, that thread has the whole back and forth with you and her about what to ask her professors...)

Keep after it Elisabeth. The more places we can demonstrate Josephine to be fluffing up her experiences and credentials the better. I personally have no knowledge of the nursing procedures so this is all you for the most part.

Yeah, Ill admit, its hard to ever pin Josephine down. She doesnt answer the questions directed at her, and when she gets caught she makes stuff up. Dont expect her to come back to address your point about the drugs...

I didn't give her the name of my hospital Oliver, so you can call all of them and find out which is mine, if you're so interested. Sure is creepy.

Oh, you proved me as a liar, Elisabeth? Must have missed it? Where at?

I can only imagine that as an LPN, she has no experience in a critical care setting. They don't use LPNs in critical care.

However, I knew about Diprivan drips even before I was an LPN as I worked as a Health Unit Coordinator (aka, secretary! LOL) in several critical care units and was also a Patient Care Technician two critical care units... as I had to send down and copy across the drug orders, I was familiar with what was used.

And I can spell Propofol without question marks.

"allowed to be administered by RNs in all but 13 states"

Fine. We'll ignore everything after the but, because apparently we're allowed to do that. We can just make stuff up, which is what you're doing.

Josephine: "Oh, you proved me as a liar, Elisabeth? Must have missed it? Where at? "

The drug thing I think.

But I can add a few.

That you answered my question about what makes a city dirty or gross.

That I never answer your question previously in this thread.

That you cant find an apartment in a relatively safe place and short distance from Chicago for cheaper than 1500.

Etc etc etc.

Now if I find your hospital and question them on the number of staff involved in the financial side of the hospital and how many of them are RNs, we'll see if this turns out to be another lie.

I also like how you just didn't pay attention to the fact that I said "nurses in the army" which is not "RN at a hospital"... again. We can both be selective in what we see. Oliver, I don't see where you asked me any questions. :)

"And I can spell Propofol without question marks."

Ah. I couldn't spell the name of the drug. You're right-- I'm a fraud!!!!

How am I making things up?

13 states have restrictions against non-CRNAs administering BOLUS DIPRIVAN.

In all of the other states, nurses trained in procedural sedation CAN administer bolus Diprivan.

In all of the states (what was it at last count, 57?? LOL) critical care nurses can administer IV drip Diprivan.

What is it that you are not understanding? Please tell me you know the difference between a bolus and an IV drip.

How am I making up something that I have a Medscape CME eligible article referenced for???

Josephine: "We can just make stuff up, which is what you're doing."

She is? Wheres the proof on that I wonder. You sure seem confident.

"The drug thing I think."

How was I lying about the drug? It's an anesthetic that was used for someone in unimaginable pain. Not a big deal-- something army nurses CAN'T do though.

"That you answered my question about what makes a city dirty or gross."

I listed the qualities of being gross, what makes something gross in general, along with my consensus that not EVERY area of Joliet was gross (which was made... I don't know how many hours ago)

"That I never answer your question previously in this thread."

I still don't see where you answered it directly. Ever. You never said what YOU THINK happens. Not that I have seen yet.

"That you cant find an apartment in a relatively safe place and short distance from Chicago for cheaper than 1500."

Where did I say that? The 1,500 was only brought up in context to what I was looking for, not a lie.

Try again?

Josephine: "I also like how you just didn't pay attention to the fact that I said "nurses in the army" which is not "RN at a hospital"... again."

If I remember correctly Josephine, this whole "nurses in the army" thing didnt appear until this thread. When I saw it crop up, I KNEW you were going to try to fall back on it. The unfortunate part is that, per my memory, you never said "nurses in the army" in the original thread.

Josephine: "We can both be selective in what we see. Oliver, I don't see where you asked me any questions. :)"

In other words, you are afraid to answer my questions, again.

What makes a city dirty?

What effect does BC have on activation and when does activation occur in terms of implantation and fertilization?

Your original statement was:
Are you kidding? What have I done that makes me know more about human biology than an average person? Aside from going to school specifically to study it?? I've set a broke leg, I've administered drugs that nurses CAN'T, I've cauterized a wound, I've actually set a broken arm.. I've done a LOT of things.

Posted by: Josephine at February 12, 2009 10:30 PM

Your original statement said NOTHING about army nursing.

And Army critical care nurses administer IV drip Diprivan all the time. And Army CRNAs administer bolus Diprivan (they are nurses, btw, albeit advanced practice nurses). I am not familiar with Army regulations regarding procedural sedation, but it is possible that they are similar to those in the general population which would then mean that army nurses trained in procedural sedation can administer bolus Diprivan.

Do you now wish to amend that to "army nurses in the field"?

As for the spelling, it merely indicates you aren't overly familiar with the drug. Someone who administers a certain drug more than a couple of times can usually spell it. It's like a dialysis nurse not knowing how to spell Lasix.

Uhm, you do realize that in my original statement, the WHOLE CONTEXT was Army, because THAT was stated, since those were all IN THE FIELD.

When did I say I "administer drugs all the time"? Don't thikn I did. Hm. Interesting. I guess you're just making stuff up... again..

Oliver, a city is dirty if it's crude or vulgar. Both words would describe Joliet. I've already said this, repeatedly, but you choose to ignore it or pretend I'm not answering your question-- because you don't like my answer.

Josephine: "I listed the qualities of being gross, what makes something gross in general..."

And I asked you how do those vague qualities apply to a city?

Here I will help you.

"Define a gross bathroom"

"A gross bathroom is one that is unclean in that it may have urine or feces on or around the toilet area."

See how easy that is? Why cant you do it for "certain parts" of Joilet?

Josephine: "I still don't see where you answered it directly. Ever. You never said what YOU THINK happens. Not that I have seen yet."

I told you I dont "think" necessarily anything happens, although I did suggest that they just dont get paid. That is an answer. I would take "I dont know" for your answer to "what makes a city gross."

Josephine: "Where did I say that? The 1,500 was only brought up in context to what I was looking for, not a lie."

Okay, Ill grant you that. You did however claim that you could not live in the suburbs for a reasonable price to afford health insurance. That I showed you several times.

You also havent responded to my other question, which I was ask again.

What effect does BC have on activation and how does activation fit in with fertilization and implantation?

Josephine: "Oliver, a city is dirty if it's crude or vulgar. Both words would describe Joliet. I've already said this, repeatedly, but you choose to ignore it or pretend I'm not answering your question-- because you don't like my answer. "

How is this specific? I asked you in specifics a few times. You are still dodging the question using circular reasoning.

What quality of a city makes the city crude? Are the buildings carved from stone or something? Just give me one example.

How am I making stuff up? You may have DONE all of those things in the field, but nowhere in that paragraph do you state that you did all of those things in the field.

Step 1: You claim to do things nurses can't do... unfortunately nurses can.

Step 2: You claim to do things nurses in the army can't do... unfortunately nurses in the army can.

Then you take "more than a couple of times" and somehow turn it into all the time?

Who is making things up?

So, Josephine, what makes a city vulgar?

Other than possibly gothic architecture. I find that vulgar... ick.

Or maybe it has a potty mouth?

Josephine: "Uhm, you do realize that in my original statement, the WHOLE CONTEXT was Army, because THAT was stated, since those were all IN THE FIELD."

You said nurses. We were not talking about army nurses. Its right there in text Josephine. How can you claim otherwise? You only brought up Army nurses in this thread. The context is NOT clear enough. We were discussing your experience in the entire medical field, how could we know to switch the context of the entire medical field to just that of the military? Its not clear from context, just admit you were wrong.

Elilsabeth, you have the thread up right? Look up where we jumped on Josephine for insulting ALL nurses, and point out how she did not respond by saying "Well okay guys, I was talking about Army nurses."

I think we can easily prove she is making a baldfaced lie here.

Elisabeth: "Who is making things up?"

Excellent. Now just find the parts in that original thread where she responded to the critique of her attack on ALL RNs. You could just link me and Ill go find it....

Don't have it up, but just read through it. She responded by saying she was a nurse, why would she insult them.

And I'd have been even more upset if she was insulting Army nurses... nursing wouldn't be where it is today without the innovation and dedication of Army, Air Force and Navy nurses.

"You may have DONE all of those things in the field, but nowhere in that paragraph do you state that you did all of those things in the field. "

Yeah, if you go back to the thread, I specifically say I'm only allowed to do anything in the field. I can't walk aorund an army base or the civilian world doing anything I want.

"Step 1: You claim to do things nurses can't do... unfortunately nurses can." You mean "SOME" nurses can. Which would mean some CAN'T. Which means... WAIT! I got it>.. that I am allowed, when acting in the field, to do things that nurses can't.

Hm. Seems like, using the transitive property, you could've gotten there yourself.

Ahh, so, even though your original problem was that I used the word "gross" you're demanding more information? So, basically, you meant me to give you EXAMPLES?? Which isn't what you asked for.

Oliver, here ya go... I'm working on my blog tonight. Desperately need to get some books up there for sale, have been sick with bronchiolitis recently and this month money is going to be very, very tight.

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2009/02/yaz_jazz.html

Elisabeth,

Thats what I thought. If she were REALLY only referncing Army nurses, she would have responded appropriately. Care to explain why you didnt bring up this point way back in the original thread?

You're going to pull grammar on me? ROFLOL, that would be great if it didn't prove you wrong.

You stated you could do something that nurses can't do. You didn't state that you could do something that some nurses can't do. Transitive or not, your original statement is false.

Nice try though, kiddo.

Gross is a non-word for descriptive purposes. My high school English teacher would have graded that down... same with vulgar...

Without giving examples of what you mean, the words themselves are too vague to convey anything of substance.

It's like saying something is "nice"... why bother with the words, you haven't really said anything. Whereas if you said, "She was considered a nice person because of her work with the poor and indigent and the soft-spoken way that she spoke with others" then, you've said something!

Josephine: "You mean "SOME" nurses can. Which would mean some CAN'T. Which means... WAIT! I got it>.. that I am allowed, when acting in the field, to do things that nurses can't.

Hm. Seems like, using the transitive property, you could've gotten there yourself."

Whoa whoa. That is NOT how it works. When you say "I can do something that nurses cant" you are implying an absolute. You clearly, clearly pointed to something that you can do that ALL nurses cant. Sorry to burst your bubble there.

Itd be like saying "Men do not have blonde hair" and then try to pull it off as "Oh I only meant some men."

Besides, I thought you were originally arguing about Army nurses? What happened to that piece of manure?

Josephine: "Ahh, so, even though your original problem was that I used the word "gross" you're demanding more information? So, basically, you meant me to give you EXAMPLES?? Which isn't what you asked for."

Im curious what you thought "specific" meant when I asked that of you?

Besides, you know what I mean. Josephine. I asked you for what specifically made a city dirty. Regardless, what does?

I mean Josephine, did you really think I just needed the definition of gross? I wanted to know what exactly makes a city gross. You are either extremely dense, or purposefully deflecting. Of course, if you are deflecting, you are also extremely dense, so I guess the pure dense route would be the best for you.

Elisabeth, the transitive property is a property of math, NOT grammar.

a=b
b=c
therefore
a=c

So, Elisabeth, if someone said "She's a nice person" you'd say "What does that mean??" If so, you're stupid. There's no way you don't know what someone means when they say something is nice.

"When you say "I can do something that nurses cant" you are implying an absolute."

Sure. An absolute to our Army nurses. What's your point? Don't pretend that the ENTIRE conversation about what I could do in the the other thread wasn't focused around my FIELD work. I'm reading it right now.

Oh, and Oliver, that isn't the definition of gross.. by the way. I just looked.

Josephine: "Sure. An absolute to our Army nurses. What's your point? Don't pretend that the ENTIRE conversation about what I could do in the the other thread wasn't focused around my FIELD work. I'm reading it right now."

No it was about your experience in general. Im reading it too. Besides, when we criticized you on the insult to nurses, you didnt defend by pointing to that it was "army nurses" but that you "were a nurse too." Did you mean you are an army nurse as well? And again, if so, why didnt you specify when we brought that objection up?

Also, you clearly are admiting your transitive property bull doesnt apply because you are admiting that when you said "nurses" that you meant "all nurses" and not "some nurses." Why did you even post that crap at the begining? I mean honestly...

"a=b
b=c
therefore
a=c"

What does that have to do with the understood quantity in the statement "nurses cant do this??"

Are you just completely making crap up now?

Really? No such thing as transitive verbs (of which you didn't use one, which is why I included "or not") ??

http://www.wordpower.ws/grammar/gramch11.html

I wouldn't say "what does that mean"... but I very well may ask, "What makes you say that?" or "In what way?" or "tell me more"... because when you say someone is nice, you haven't really said much.

And it is NOT an absolute to Army nurses. Army nurses in a critical care setting administer IV drip Diprivan!

So basically Josepine, either way you are wrong, even if we granted the army nurse argument, which we are not by the way.

Josephine :"I wish you'd stop pretending I'm not an LPN and medic. In the field, I have to act as a doctor. Have you ever had to do that, as a nurse?"

Thats from your thread that was supposedly about army nurses. Did you mean whoever you were addressing did they do that as an ARMY nurse?

Ill find some more shortly.

No... the Army doesn't have much use for LPNs... that's why they make them train as medics.

Hey....heres another good one.

Josephine: " will post a picture tomorrow, if you'd like. The cover has the title and publisher."

Did that ever happen? Id like to see it. Of course it would be helpful to know what you think it says, but considering that you are afraid to answer that question, who knows?

Okay, here is the conversation of your "have you ever had to that as a nurse" thing.

Elisabeth: "Apparently she's a PRE-medical student. They know even more."

Josephine: "I wish you'd stop pretending I'm not an LPN and medic. In the field, I have to act as a doctor. Have you ever had to do that, as a nurse? :)"

Rae said "Josephine- is it really necessary to
denigrate nurses in order to satisfy your own ego?"

Josephine: "Rae, is it really fair to insult med students, when I've said over and over my information is from a book, not from myself? I didn't write anything I'm saying: neither did anyone else."

So what about that conversation meant Army nurses? You directed the comment to Elisabeth. Did you mean to say that Elisabeth is an Army nurse? Care to clarify?

ROFLOL... I'm definitely not an Army nurse! If I were in I would be a Navy nurse (have considered it) but I chose to wait until the election to decide whether to take a commission and when Obama won it was a no-go for me!

So care to apologize Josephine for lying?

Also,

What makes a city dirty specifically?

And,

What effect does BC have on activation, and where does activation fit in with implantation and fertilization?

Oh and one more thing, please, PLEASE stop claiming that you are pro-life. We dont need your kind on our side.

Eh... watch the language Oliver, I'd hate to see YOU get in trouble. Whilst I agree with the sentiment... keep talking like that and I'll start to think you're a nurse (Um, yeah, the meek should never be in a nurse's station around 2 am... we can make sailors and truckers blush!)

But yes, I think at this point anything Josephine says is highly suspect. The thing about the medical field is that the less that people know, the more they think they know. Generally speaking, CNAs and medical assistants are the worst about thinking they "know as much as nurses"... LPNs think there is no difference between them and an RN... but once you hit the RN level people realize that the more you know the more there IS to know... although there are still ADN RNs who think there is no benefit to a BSN and so on....

Josie here must think you are an Army nurse, as she says it clearly shows in the thread that she was talking about Army nurses and her nurse statement was directed at you. Right Josephine?

Notice Josephine is nowhere to be found....Thats okay though. I will continue to ask her these questions until she addresses them.

Notice how Josephine has disappeared by the way. What could she say really? Dont worry though, I wont let her skirt these questions. I will continue to ask her until she yields or disappears and I encourage you to do the same. We cannot allow the liberals to get away with the evasion. It has to stop.

Josephine.

If your for real, and not flame, you have exposed yourself as lacking in how cities/counties fund local public hospitals.

Try and have a open mind when someone is trying to explain, what is essentially the taxpayers pov of public funding of hospitals.

How citizens are paying property/homestead taxes their entire "homeowner life" for those county/university hospitals.

Yet, when they use a public hospital, they are billed as if not one penny they have put into the "public hospital district" their entire homeowner life, counts towards paying the bill presented to the "hospital tax paying citizen".

Soo, what did you pay those taxes for?

And once again, ER's(private and public) are swamped from the simple fact that people don't get sick 8 to 5.

They have to go to a ER since their family doc doesn't work after hours.

Think about it Josephine. Private hospital Er's are crowded also. And those people waiting in the ER are rich and able to pay their med bills easily.

In fact, I have been with people who were sick, and we're waiting in a plush waiting room of a private hospital for hours, and walked out and gone to another private hospital ER.

The sickness(headache for two days, stomach ache for hours which began in the morning, and when you called your family provider, he had no time open) might be serious or maybe not. But the point is, your the person who cares and loves that sick person and will take them at all hours to ease your nerves and hope it is not serious.

I must come to the conclusion that you have been sick only between the hours of 8 to 5 and have no idea of caring for other people who are not adults(children) or are aged.

You once wrote that I have this hate for medical personel.

Well, actually I have a niece who is a RN, and so is her husband.
Which led me to listen to them complain, moan and groan, because those patients punched their "button" to much. How those "old people" moan and groan all night and don't allow them to read their books and play games all night.

How they were overworked and underpayed while they were employed at private/public hospitals.

Which brings up the nurse shortage in hospitals, which occurs from them finally gettin that med position they always wanted; working for a doc in his 8 to 5 pratice.

BTW, the niece was always going to church, and even going on those trips to some poverty stricken area to save their souls.

Which was interesting, knowing their "hate" for their patients while they were employed at hospitals.

So, I'm gonna give you a hint in life Josephine.
Elders and oldsters can sum you up with one look upon you, and read your character before you might say a word. Ever be around those elderly and have them not say one word to ya Josephine, while a minute latter they strike up a conversation with a co-worker after looking right past ya Josephine?

Okay, woah, a lot happened while I was busy last night. Eh, I'll give it a shot anyway.

Alexandra, we apparently have different views. My apartment where I am now, at school, is gross. I know it, and I don't care if other people know it. It's in a kind of dirty neighborhood, which I realize. The air conditioner sucks so it's muggy inside, the bathroom is plain dingy...

It's where I live though. Don't care if people tell me the truth about it. I already know.

Josephine, whether or not my apartment (or yours) is actually gross is not the point. The point is, whether it is gross or it isn't, do people inherently DESERVE better? I don't think so. Nothing about my current apartment, or neighborhood, interferes with my ability to live. I have easy access to jobs. I have streets so safe that I (another 100-lb woman) frequently walk home alone on them well past midnight -- yes, even with the kids spitting and shrieking on the corner, even with half the signs I pass being written in foreign languages, even with the full block and a half of my commute that takes the alley through the projects. I have utilities. I may WANT better than flaking grout and dusty floors, but do I DESERVE better?

On my walk to and from the subway, I pass a children's garden. It's pretty gross by non-Queens standards. Mini versions of plastic lawn furniture, a few discarded or donated outdoor toys, whatever plants will survive in any given season. And usually it all gets swept up into one big heap and frozen solid like that, in the first big winter storm, so it just sits there like some sculptural ball of trash for three months or so. But I don't think it's gross at all. It changes every season -- the layout of the furniture changes, the plants the kids work to care for change. Yeah, it will never be featured in a gardening or a design magazine, but does that mean it's less than what people deserve? I think it's wonderful. I think the kids don't care what it looks like, and the parents enjoy having some free or cheap activity to do with their kids. I think those people would be pretty offended if you walked up to them and said, "You know, you don't HAVE to live in such a gross place."

You said this to Oliver:

This is funny to me. I'd love for YOU to tell them they DO have to live in a gross city because they're poor.

The point is, nobody is telling anyone they HAVE to live in a "gross" city. People deserve access to the resources they require to survive. But beyond that, you deserve what you earn. I'm quite proud of what I've earned, and I am proud of how I've managed what I've earned. This past weekend I went to look at a 2-bedroom apartment in Jackson Heights (further out in Queens than I am currently) and it was GORGEOUS. I prefer small homes and I think 1100 sq. feet is a good amount of room for having 2 or 3 kids -- I could see myself living there for a long time. Absolutely perfect. It was also $535,000. I have not earned that apartment yet, however badly I may want it. I don't deserve that apartment if I haven't earned it. That's what keeps me showing up at work at 8am on the dot six freaking days a week.

Janet --

Your comments are a breathe of fresh air.

Thank you! I usually try not to get involved but this is something I feel strongly about. My parents moved to this city with just about nothing, and they lived in some pretty gross areas before eventually working their way up to the nice old house in the suburbs with the good school system and the clean streets. I see dignity in that, and I would consider myself successful if I basically just followed in their footsteps.