Plan B easy availability to minors will increase rape

by Kelli

1.pngFrom Students for Life of America:

On Wednesday, the FDA announced it would allow 17 year olds to purchase the "morning-after" birth control pill without a doctor's prescription or parental knowledge. As proved in the SFLA Oct. 2008 undercover video from Charlotte, NC, this announcement will only help Planned Parenthood and their abortion allies to continue to cover up cases of rape...

In June of 2008, a college woman volunteering for SFLA entered a clinic in NC posing as a 15-year-old girl who had unprotected sex with her mother's live-in boyfriend who was in his 30s; the girl told the clinic workers he suggested she come get the morning-after pill.

Not only did PP workers fail to report the statutory rape as required by NC General Statues... they told the girl her rapist could go into any drug store to purchase the morning-after pill... Plan B.

SFLA Executive Director, Kristan Hawkins, said, "The FDA ruling this week which expands access of Plan B to minors is just going to allow rapists to continue to cover up their crimes. Parents won't even know that their daughters are being raped."

View the video below:

[JLS note: Don't forget, Plan B will also now be available over-the-counter to 17-year-old boys. Think about it.]


Comments:

Larry Klayman of Freedom Wathch says "I thus have a compromise suggestion; let's agree to end waterboarding and instead put al-Qaida terrorists in a room with Hillary Clinton; a far worse punishment than any technique employed by the CIA. When Bill Clinton experienced this torture he cracked and confessed to Mrs. Clinton his involvement with Monica Lewinsky. In this way, we can get the prisoners to spill the beans much faster, and teach them a lesson to boot. Just ask Bill Clinton, who must be pleased to be roaming free these days,

[see Revised Code of Washington State ,Chapter 16.24 RCW: "Horses, mules, and 'ASSES' running at large]
as his nominal wife crisscrosses the globe," Klayman said.
----------------------------------------------------

When madam secretary Hillary Rodham/Clinton has a man's stones in her lock box his heart and mind will soon follow.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at April 24, 2009 2:51 PM


I'm really exhausted by this argument of banning birth control resources for teens based on the assumption that it would be used primarily by rapists. This is not the case and everyone here knows it.

ANY form of contraception could potentially be used by a rapist against a female of any age. Condoms could. Crushing a pill in a girl's drink could. A dental dam could. This is your reason why they shouldn't have access? Plan B is a safe, non-Rx resource for women to prevent pregnancy after unprotected sex. Period. That's it. It is simply a higher dosage of the pill. There is no larger conspiracy to encourage rapists to find new and innovative ways to violate their victims.

Call this for what it is. You don't want teens given access to any form of birth control because you believe this lead to unsafe and immoral sexual behavior before marriage. Please stop trying to manipulate the issue in the name of 'protecting young girls from rapists.'

Posted by: Danielle at April 24, 2009 2:57 PM


Anonymous comments will be deleted.

Posted by: Carla at April 24, 2009 3:06 PM


I'm sure my post was only deleted because I forgot to fill in a name and not because the moderators of this fine site were trying to censor me, so here goes again:

You have one instance of Planned Parenthood failing to report a suspected rape and this means Plan B pills commercially available to minors is going to increase rape? What is the implication here? That pregnancies (or potential pregnancies) of minors resulting from rape are a good way of alerting authority figures to the fact that a crime was committed (if the minor, for whatever reasons, is reluctant to admit what happened) and if minors can get these pills on their own then this "rape warning system" of teen pregnancy is being bypassed?

Posted by: Corsair at April 24, 2009 3:07 PM


I'm really exhausted by this argument of banning birth control resources for teens based on the assumption that it would be used primarily by rapists. This is not the case and everyone here knows it.

Posted by: Danielle at April 24, 2009 2:57 PM

You are not concerned about women's health? Mental or physical?

If you were, you would want health professionals render health services. I am ashamed of the PP crowd that claims they advocate women's health and then they say self treatment is good enough. That is what coat hangers are for.

There is no banning of birth control. self control is the best. No sex before marriage. try to act just a little like you want to make a truthfull argument.

Fornication and adultery are not a part of birth control.

Posted by: xppc at April 24, 2009 3:12 PM


You have one instance of Planned Parenthood failing to report a suspected rape ....

Posted by: Corsair at April 24, 2009 3:07 PM


One? Are you kidding me?

Posted by: Kristen at April 24, 2009 3:32 PM


There is no banning of birth control. self control is the best. No sex before marriage. try to act just a little like you want to make a truthfull argument. Fornication and adultery are not a part of birth control.
Posted by: xppc at April 24, 2009 3:12 PM

-You just proved my entire post. Thanks.

Posted by: Danielle at April 24, 2009 3:42 PM


Just what we need.

More 'recreational drugs'.

Might as well go ahead give em over the counter viagra/rohibnol cocktails while you are at it.

Have all the fun you can stand and not have any residual memory to jeopardize your bliss.

Not that is what I call a 'stimulus' plan.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at April 24, 2009 3:45 PM


Rapists often use condoms to cover up their crimes. Why aren't pro-lifers calling for condoms to be made prescription-only?

How many rapists do you really think would be willing to stop by the pharmacy and spend $50 on Plan B, then force their victim to take it, then wait around 12 hours to force her to take the second dose? If he really wanted to cover up his crime, he could just spend 25 cents on a condom and avoid leaving DNA evidence as well as prevent pregnancy. If a man wants to spend $50 on sex, he can just go to a prostitute.

It's a bogus, made-up concern and you know it. Nobody has to force rape victims to take Plan B. Why would a rape victim WANT to become pregnant? And why would YOU want rape victims to become pregnant against their will? Even you have to realize how stupid and sick you sound.

Posted by: reality at April 24, 2009 4:10 PM


xppc,

You are not concerned about women's health? Mental or physical?

Plan B is so safe, an FDA committee voted unanimously that it would be safe to sell over the counter with no restrictions. So who are you to accuse anyone of being unconcerned about women's health? Plan B is no threat to women's health.

Unwanted pregnancy is, however, a threat to women's health, and you happen to be advocating for more of it.

Posted by: reality at April 24, 2009 4:15 PM


The implication seems to be that pregnancies resulting from are good because they are evidence against the rapist. Are you all not aware of much more effective ways of proving rape occurred?

Posted by: Kate at April 24, 2009 4:23 PM


Also, most rape victims want to protect themselves from pregnancy after such trama.

Posted by: Kate at April 24, 2009 4:27 PM


reality,

"Unwanted pregnancy is, however, a threat to women's health, and you happen to be advocating for more of it."

You are wrong.
99.99999999999999999% of the time, an unwanted pregnancy is not a threat to women's health.

Your comment about condoms and prescriptions is irrelevant. Condoms don't kill babies.

* * * *
FYI, Glenn Beck just interviewed Lila Rose about TN Planned Parenthood's rape cover-up. Beck's Monday show will highlight Hillary's high praise for Margaret Sanger's legacy.

Posted by: Janet at April 24, 2009 4:37 PM


Reality,

Like Ronald Reagan said to Jimmy Carter so often, "There you go again.!"

You are playing loose and fast with the truth.

Changing definitions to fit your predilections.

Attributing positions to your opponents that they never espoused.

Why don't you try taking one point, just one, and identify it correctly and use your rational mind to disprove that with which you disagree by applying logic and reason.

We all make mistakes. Identify your opponents mistake and point it out with some demonstrable facts.

"Why aren't pro-lifers calling for condoms to be made prescription-only?"

As a 'pro-lifer' speaking only for myself, I oppose requiring a prescription for a condom.

Condoms make great water bombs and are excellent for constructing a piñata and, in a pinch, they make great bouyancy aids for small children.

Having to get a prescription will only drive up the price and it will inevitably create an underground market where quality will be impossible to determine. There will be substandard 'knock offs' of the real deal.

Prescription is the firt step down the slippery slope to proscription and once the camels nose is in the tent, prohibition cannot fail to follow.

When condoms are outlawed, only outlaws....will...have...condoms.

(Wait, don't we want rapists to have condoms?

You can lead a criminal to latex, but he may be latex intolerant.

Will the rapist get time off for good behavior if practices safe sex?)

Do not awaken the sleeping giant.

No condoms, no peace!

Can condom wars be far behind?

Imagine a world without prophylactics.

No candy filled piñatas por cumpleaños fiestas.

No water bombs for the fourth of July picnics.

No redneck floaties.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at April 24, 2009 4:54 PM


Your comment about condoms and prescriptions is irrelevant. Condoms don't kill babies.

That's the point. This entire argument is based on opposition to Plan B because you don't like Plan B. Not opposition to Plan B because Plan B helps rapists. Condoms are WAY more helpful to rapists than Plan B is so if rape is the concern, condoms should be first on your list.

Posted by: Alexandra at April 24, 2009 6:54 PM


PP's view of Pregnancy: An STD if not PLANNED OUT PERFECTLY.

Pro Lifers Views of Pregnancy: After nine months, ends with the birth of a child: The gift of LIFE!

More contraception does not prevent "unintended pregnancies". And it does NOT provide ANY protection against STDs, which are a LOT worse than carrying a baby for 9 months.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at April 24, 2009 7:01 PM


Planned parent hood violated the Law If I were a lawyer, I'd shut them down! Listen to the video, liberals don't read,they're all the same, following the great Obama, the new god of the demacratic party! However, I choose to follow the LORD Jesus Christ, because he hasn't led me wrong since!

Posted by: RJ Sandefur at April 24, 2009 8:19 PM


Okay, pro-choicers, put rape aside, what about the potential for misuse of the drug by teens who could resort to using it after every sexual encounter? How is that safe? How safe is it to overload a young girl (or for that fact, any woman) with synthetic hormones?

Posted by: Eileen #2 at April 24, 2009 8:48 PM


Eilleen #2,
Good question. I found this on-line.
http://www.optionline.org/map.html?gclid=CLL3nPD0ipoCFQ_yDAodVmNdFw

Posted by: Janet at April 24, 2009 9:16 PM


How safe is it to overload a young girl (or for that fact, any woman) with synthetic hormones?

I don't think it's safe at all. I think there are far more valid arguments against OTC Plan B for minors than "it will help rapists."

Posted by: Alexandra at April 24, 2009 9:25 PM



What are some of the valid arguments, Alexandra?

Love, me

Posted by: Carla at April 25, 2009 8:50 AM


And you wonder why these people are considered right wing extremists??

Posted by: Pain at April 25, 2009 9:55 AM


Hi Pain! Welcome.

Love,
A Right Wing Nutjob Extremist(but you can call me Carla)

Posted by: Carla at April 25, 2009 10:25 AM


This rape argument is so weak. Why bother? Why not just say you're opposed to Plan B because it might stop a pregnancy before it starts?

Posted by: minnow at April 25, 2009 11:07 AM


because that's not even an argument. How do stop something that hasn't started? Are you being facetious, Minnow?

Posted by: Jon at April 25, 2009 12:15 PM


no I wasn't. How can stop something that hasn't started? Prevention.

Posted by: minnow at April 25, 2009 12:30 PM


Yes. Let's prevent rape!! Rape should be illegal...wait a minute.....

Posted by: Carla at April 25, 2009 1:07 PM


Carla @ 10:25 -- heeheehee!


Posted by: Eileen #2 at April 25, 2009 1:35 PM


as someone already noted here, if you really want to prevent rape there are far better ways than fighting Plan B availability.

Plan B is for preventing unwanted pregnancy.

Posted by: minnow at April 25, 2009 1:49 PM


Minnow,
You are assuming that women that are raped might NOT want to carry their babies to term. I know several that have and are very thankful they did not add to the trauma of rape by killing their own child.

Posted by: Carla at April 25, 2009 2:14 PM


I'm not assuming anything. I'm pointing out that the argument about plan b causing rape is weak and that plan b is really about preventing unwanted pregnancy. A minor portion of these unwanted pregnancies are the result of rape. An even lesser portion would be plan b being forced upon a rape victim.


Posted by: minnow at April 25, 2009 2:41 PM


Carla,

Apparently Plan B can work in different ways depending on many factors. The first thing to determine before taking it is to figure out whether you really need it or not. Weigh the risks - there are many. Then learn how it works.

Summarized from the package inserts (see link below):

Learn How the Morning After Pill Works

Many women don’t know how Plan B® works. Plan B® works in one of three ways, and the difference depends upon where the woman is in her cycle.

1) If she has not yet ovulated, taking Plan B® can work as a contraceptive and suppress ovulation.

2) If she has ovulated, it can prevent the sperm from coming into contact with the egg.

3) The last way in which Plan B® may work is a little more complicated. Conception or fertilization is the term used when the sperm joins the egg. When this happens, human life has begun. The embryo moves through the fallopian tube and implants in the uterus about a week later. If Plan B® is taken after an egg has been fertilized it may not allow the embryo to implant in the uterus.xii This would be a very early abortion.

For more information, see
http://www.optionline.org/map.html?gclid=CLL3nPD0ipoCFQ_yDAodVmNdFw
For source documentation, see
http://www.optionline.org/MAP_references.pdf

Posted by: Janet at April 25, 2009 3:52 PM


Some rape victims might want to give birth after what they've gone through. Others may not be at a place physically(childbirth is rough) or mentally. Everyone is different and reacts differently to trauma. This is why it's important to make sure they have access to all their options.

Posted by: Kate at April 25, 2009 3:54 PM


Kate, What do you mean by "not at a place physically or mentally"?
Of course childbirth is rough to most, but to many women it's a wonderful experience. Why should these hinder the carrying of a child, a beautiful child, who was conceived under unfortunate circumstances, who is innocent of any wrong?

Posted by: Janet at April 25, 2009 5:10 PM


To MANY women childbirth is a wonderful experience. To others it is a dangerous and painful nightmare. Every woman is different! Some women suffer through days of labor and months of recovery. For a 14 year old or 40 year old with heart disease going through pregnancy and childbirth might not be so wonderful or even safe.

Posted by: Kate at April 25, 2009 5:30 PM


What are some of the valid arguments, Alexandra?

Well, that depends first on whether you want to argue against Plan B in general, or specifically against Plan B being OTC for people under 18. If you just want to address the minors, then it's easy to just do the same thing we do with smoking, drinking, etc. Restrict the access to an age at which people can reasonably be trusted to act responsibly. I don't know the statistics on these things so I don't know if there is any truth to the theory that 17-year old women might be more likely to rely heavily on Plan B as birth control, but we restrict plenty of things by age based on that logic. If there can be damage done by taking massive quantities of hormones, and if younger people are less likely to be responsible in the quantities of hormones they take, then logically you could argue that younger people should be required to at least speak to a medical professional before obtaining these hormones. And of course anyone can argue that an 18-year old is no more capable of making a rational decision than a girl who might just be one day younger than her, but if you're going to draw lines you need to draw them somewhere.

Posted by: Alexandra at April 25, 2009 6:02 PM


Thank you, Janet!! Thank you, Alexandra!! :)

Kate,
I am not understanding your comments at all. Are you saying that because childbirth is difficult for some they should opt for abortion or the morning after pill?? It is called LABOR for a reason. There is PURPOSE in the pain. A child is born!! How will you know what your labor will be like unless you go through it???

If this is your argument it is the weakest one I have seen in a long time.

Kill your baby cause childbirth could be hard. If I have it all wrong then I look forward to you correcting me on your beliefs.

Posted by: Carla at April 26, 2009 6:50 AM


I'm saying for some women, pregnancy and childbirth is not in their best interests while many here seem to saying it's always wonderful and should be welcomed after a rape. A 13 year old getting ready to attend high school may not want go through nine months what goes along with pregnancy and the risks and trama of childbirth(not to mention the recovery). You may seem to think it would be a cakewalk, but the the person actually going through it it would not be. The same could be said for a woman in her 40s with five kids, a career, and medical issues. These women did not choose to be raped, but you seem to assume they all want a child from it and can handle pregnancy and birth at that time in their lives. The idea that it's always better for the rape victim than the morning after pill is one of the weakest arguments I've heard. If a woman feels she can't go through a pregnancy for various personal reasons who are you to tell her to shut up and PUSH!

Posted by: Kate at April 26, 2009 10:47 AM


Would you all tell the victim in this story that she should not have taken the morning after pill because pregnancy and childbirth is just what she needed?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/09/eveningnews/main700791.shtml

Posted by: kate at April 26, 2009 10:53 AM


Kate,
That was a horrible tragedy that the woman in the story experienced. Rape is horrible. No one here denies that. I don't understand the title of this thread, either, if that is part of your problem with this topic.

Nevertheless, I can't say rape is a good enough reason to take a pill that might stop/kill a pregnancy when there is no OTHER reason I can think of where it would be morally permissible either.

The number of pregnancies that occur from rape each year is not very high, although one is too many if you happen to be the one experiencing it. Why do you assume to know what is in the mind of every rape victim and that most would be willing to take the pill? I think rape is a poor argument for putting a pill on the market (OTC of all things) which could have many more complications than say, an aspirin. Did you read my links above to the MAP package insert information? I would think it would be difficult for even a medical professional to evaluate the first time they were introduced to how the drug works.
http://www.optionline.org/MAP_references.pdf

Posted by: Janet at April 26, 2009 12:50 PM


Since I didn't tell you my opinion you went ahead and thought for me, Kate. :)
Rape is one of the most horrific crimes perpetrated I can think of. It is a serious violation, much like abortion.

PC never mention the serious and long term consequences of rape or the fact that they would like women to seek help, therapy, counseling to overcome the victimization they have suffered. The argument seems to be that abortion cures rape. It does not.

Some things to think about...
Pregnancy due to rape is extremely rare.
The violence of abortion parallels the violence of rape. Both are done at the expense of an innocent person.
Rape is never the fault of the child. The child is the innocent party. The rapist should be punished, not the child.
Abortion does not bring healing to a rape victim.
A child is a child regardless of the circumstances of his/her conception.
What about already-born people that were conceived in rape? What shall we do with them?

I would hope that with the proper counseling a woman or young girl can see that giving birth to a child can have profound healing affects on her life after rape. Something beautiful out of something horrifying. My friend did just that and now has a beautiful son.

Oh, and Kate I hope that you give your mother a big bouquet of flowers and a beautiful card on Mother's Day and let her know that you are thankful that she went through labor to get you here. Not easy but SOOOOOOOOOO worth it!! If you were born after 1973, then you are an abortion survivor.

Posted by: Carla at April 26, 2009 2:27 PM


Thank you, Carla! Well said.

Posted by: Janet at April 26, 2009 2:32 PM


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/09/eveningnews/main700791.shtml

Posted by: kate at April 26, 2009 10:53 AM
-------------------------------------------------------

Here ia curious paragraph from the new story the link that Kate provided:

"The federal government is siding squarely with religious conservatives. Dr. Michael Weaver helped draft national guidelines for rape victims, which strongly recommended offering the morning-after pill."

I am not 'catholic'. Never have been 'catholic'.

I do not profess to be 'protestant'.

I just have a personal penchant for eschewing religious lables and titles.

If you do a little reading you will find that Jesus and the apostle Paul both commented on the subject.

I believe the labels and titles do more to perpetuate division in the body of Christ than they do to promote unity.

That aforementioned paragraph is a clever attempt to bring division to the pro-life community.

I have not read anything, anywhere that would indicate there is any kind of consensus among 'protestants' concerning the rightness or wrongness of the 'morningafter pill'. I do not know of a any concerted effort by 'protestants' to make the 'moringingafter pill' more or less readily available.

In my albeit limited knowledge of the prolife movement that paragraph is baseless propaganda.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at April 26, 2009 3:57 PM


I never said abotion or EC cures rape. In some cases it can prevent further trauma depending on the situation. For example, pregnancy and childbirth would be the last thing I could've gone through when I was 14, especially after such a horrible violation. My little sister had to have a pelvic exam for medical reasons at 15 and it was horrifying for her. I can't imagine her having to go through invasive procedures and pain involved in pregnancy and childbirth right now. For other women it might not be a big deal. Everyone is different! This is why we need to make sure rape victims have all options available to them and why EC needs to be more available. It can help eliminate the difficult choice of abortion or childbirth and relieve anxiety just a little bit, as rape victims have enough to worry about.

I totally agree pregnancy and childbirth CAN be wonderful in certain situations, just not for all rape victims. I plan to give birth someday. I just couldn't have done it after being raped at 12 for example.

I see many of you look at this from a very simplistic viewpoint. What is right for some is not right for all in every circumstance. That is why I support letting women make choices for themselves and being given all the facts!

Posted by: Kate at April 26, 2009 4:32 PM


A baby's life is at stake!!! Not simplistic at all.

You are continuing with "the worst case scenario" of a pregnant 12, 13, or 14 year old girl pregnant through rape. It is very rare indeed.

I have had an abortion Kate. It was one of the most invasive, horrifying experiences of my life. Believe me.

Everyone is different. True. The outcome of abortion is the same. One dead child. One wounded mother.

Posted by: Carla at April 26, 2009 5:02 PM


Kate,

I have no problem with being given facts. If knowing right from wrong are simplistic notions, then call me a simpleton. I'm fine with that.

Posted by: Janet at April 26, 2009 5:04 PM


You are using cliches and generalizations to say you know what is best in every situation. I agree that a surgical abortion is not usually an easy thing to go through either, though in situations it may be easier than giving birth. This is why we need to make sure rape victims always have the OPTION to take EC. Not every woman is in a good position to give birth(women in their teens and with medical conditions are good examples) and having an abortion can also be painful. EC helps reduce the chance of having to make that choice and helps eliminate one more thing for a rape victim to worry about. I don't think any woman should have to deal with worrying about pregnancy while trying to recover from rape!

Posted by: Kate at April 26, 2009 5:20 PM


Kate,
You simply have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

Posted by: Carla at April 26, 2009 5:22 PM


Carla,
Take a class in logic or reading comprehension. I'm not sure if you can't read my points or do not understand how to respond. Simply saying someone has no idea what they are talking about hardly makes it so. Ad hominem attacks means you lost the debate!

Posted by: Kate at April 26, 2009 5:29 PM


Oh yea, I'm studying to be a reproductive endocrinologist, so I'm sure I know more about this topic than yourself.

Posted by: Kate at April 26, 2009 5:32 PM


What part of I HAD AN ABORTION AND IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST INVASIVE, HORRIFYING EXPERIENCES OF MY LIFE is a generalization or a cliche???

You are of the OPINION that being raped and pregnant and giving birth at the age of 14 would be horrible FOR YOU!!

You can say you won if you would like. Doesn't really matter that much to me. I know the truth.

I know women who have been raped and kept their children and are so very thankful they did. I know women who have been raped and had an abortion and it DEVASTATED them.

Posted by: Carla at April 26, 2009 5:42 PM


I have had an abortion, 2 miscarriages(one baby I held in my hand)and given birth to 4 children. I know a little bit myself.

Posted by: Carla at April 26, 2009 5:52 PM


If I were suggesting all rape victims have abortions what you say might have some bearing on the argument. However, I have been very clear that all women are different and should have a choice. I've also recognized that abortion can also be difficult. That only underscores my point that we need to make sure all victims of rape should have to option to take EC, so she won't have to undergo an abortion or be forced to give birth. Your personal anecdotes hardly support the idea that women should have their options limited. If I were advocating forced abortion that would be one thing, but how does the fact that some women regret their abortion support the idea that no rape victim should be allowed the CHOICE or have access to EC?

Posted by: Kate at April 26, 2009 5:53 PM


Oh and would you say you know more about rape and EC than the woman in the story I gave a link to? She seems to support giving victims the option.

Posted by: Kate at April 26, 2009 5:56 PM


My experiences with abortion, miscarriage and child birth are hardly "anecdotes." It is my life you are dismissing.

I can tell you care very much about women as evidenced by the care you have shown to me and my thoughts and experiences.

Goodnight, Kate.

Posted by: Carla at April 26, 2009 6:27 PM


Kate,

" Oh yea, I'm studying to be a reproductive endocrinologist, so I'm sure I know more about this topic than yourself."

Have you posted under another name before? Your responses sound familiar....


Posted by: Janet at April 26, 2009 7:33 PM


"Oh and would you say you know more about rape and EC than the woman in the story I gave a link to? She seems to support giving victims the option."

Posted by: Kate at April 26, 2009 5:56 PM

If experience is a pre-requisite for knowledge, then men should not be allowed to deliver babies.

Posted by: Janet at April 26, 2009 7:39 PM


This assertion that rape-related pregnancy is very rare only underscores the weakness of the argument the Plan B availability increases rape. And saying abortion can be devastating only supports making Plan B available to those who might want it to avoid a pregnancy.

Posted by: minnow at April 26, 2009 8:35 PM


minnow, Plan B can cause abortions. Look at my earlier post. Straight from the product packaging inserts.

Posted by: Janet at April 26, 2009 9:15 PM


Anecdote

"noun a short account of a particular incident or event of an interesting or amusing nature, often biographical."

How is what you shared not anecdotal? Anectdotal evidence is that based merely on personal experience rather than actual social science. This is opposed to statistial evidence for example that has removed biases, like a scientific poll or a double blind study. Personal stories may be more entertaining, but they simply are not more accurate. According to an anecdote someone may smoke a pack a day and live to be 100, yet study after study shows a direct correlation between smoking and early death.

Posted by: Kate at April 26, 2009 10:43 PM


Kate, The story you posted is also anecdotal. You are arguing semantics. Why?

Posted by: Janet at April 26, 2009 10:50 PM


Kate,
Have you posted under another name before? Your responses sound familiar....
Posted by: Janet at April 26, 2009 7:33 PM

Posted by: Janet at April 26, 2009 10:52 PM


Janet,
I have not posted under another name on this thread. I don't think I have on this site period. I don't understand why you care. The news story I gave merely gave a face to the issue and underscored the fact that not every rape victim wants to give birth! Carla used her anecdotes to generalize about all women. The fact that she regrets her abortion is hardly evidence that all women feel the same, and it hardly means that it should be outlawed. Do we really think so little of all women that they need the government to protect them from their own decisions?

Posted by: Kate at April 26, 2009 10:58 PM


Oh yea, I'm studying to be a reproductive endocrinologist, so I'm sure I know more about this topic than yourself.

Posted by: Kate at April 26, 2009 5:32 PM

That folks is a logical fallacy known as; appeal to authority.


An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:


Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
Person A makes claim C about subject S.
Therefore, C is true.

The only knowledge of endocrinolgy is and would be the physical effects of rape. Being that a encrinologist is the study of "ductless glands", a question arises.

What "ductless gland" is damaged in rape? Is it the pituitary gland or the hypothlamus, or both?

Does rape tear and rip the cells of the brain?

So, we have a person who is studying glands which are located in the brain, that send molecules to the reproductive organs, and controls those reproductive organ's function.

So, Kate, see above fallacy which fits your post to the tee.

Therefore C is true.


Posted by: yllas at April 27, 2009 6:44 AM


Do we really think so little of women that all we have to offer them is the killing of their own children to "heal" them?

Women deserve better than abortion.

Janet,
Kate does sound familiar to me as well. But why do we care?

Posted by: Carla at April 27, 2009 7:01 AM


janet, possibly preventing implantation from occuring is not an abortion nor is it possibly devasting.

Posted by: minnow at April 27, 2009 9:25 AM


Reproductive endocrinology is a sub-specialty of gynecology. It includes virtually all facets of women's health.

Carla,
You really know little if you think abortion is always about healing(though you seem to think childbirth always is). Women get them for a variety of reasons. It's quite paternalistic to think that all women have the same needs and require the government protect them from their own choices. Limiting our choices is never empowering. No one is suggesting that women be forced to have abortions. I believe they should have all options available to them with as much knowledge as possible. You would like to remove options from women rather than trust them to make their own decisions. The fact that you don't seem to support plan b when it can prevent women from having to make the difficult choice of abortion or childbirth suggests you really don't care about empowering victims of violence, but rather sugar coat your political agenda in faux compassion.

The fact that you keep injecting personal jabs and sob stories that really have nothing to do with giving all rape victims THE OPTION of EC just shows you have no logical argument against it. Again, WHY SHOULD ALL RAPE VICTIMS NOT HAVE THE OPTION OF TAKING PLAN B? That is what the topic at hand is. I say they should all be given the choice along with all the facts about the drug. This way victims who don't believe in it or would like the chance at carrying to term can decline and others who don't feel they can go through a pregnancy can take it to reduce anxiety and avoid surgical abortion. What is so hard to understand about that?!

Posted by: Kate at April 27, 2009 10:24 AM


I have to agree that if it just comes down to what the woman wants, then keeping the options open makes most sense. Even though abortion hurts many women, there are others who aren't hurt at all by it, so if it's just about the woman's feelings then women should be given choices, information, and support; and allowed to make the decision for themselves.

Of course, if it's not just about what the woman wants -- if it's about something greater than that -- then what the woman wants becomes somewhat irrelevant. If the argument is that abortion is wrong, the reasoning for this isn't that abortion is wrong because women don't want abortions. The reasoning is that abortion is wrong whether women want abortions or not.

I think (can't tell anymore, lol) we're discussing EC, which to my knowledge may only possibly prevent implantation, so I don't personally think that's in the same category as abortion. But even if the argument is somehow that EC is abortion, then IMO the above rules apply. If it's wrong then the emotions of the women involved, while important, are not the reason it's wrong, just as the emotions of women who want abortions do not make it right.

Posted by: Alexandra at April 27, 2009 10:47 AM


I am so sorry Kate.

I have a sick anecdote on the couch today and two other little anecdotes to take care of. I can't seem to stop sobbing about my life either. Weird.

Carry on.

Posted by: Carla at April 27, 2009 10:48 AM


Carla, at first when I read that you had a sick anecdote I thought you meant sick as in slang, like "awesome," and I was like, "Hey, Carla has an awesome kid! What a cool mom!"

I hope your sick (health-wise and awesomeness-wise) anecdote feels better soon. :) It can't be a get-out-of-school ploy because the weather is just finally getting nice, so it's an actual icky-feeling, real kind of sickness. Bummer.

One time when I was in 6th grade (the nadir of my popularity, to be sure; I was wildly popular in elementary school, of the untouchable caste in middle school, and comfortably, somewhat anonymously popular in high school) a boy put gum in my hair. Now, I had long hair (still do) -- it grows soooo fast, like those dolls where you crank the arm and hair just comes out of the head. So I got this big wad of gum in my big wad of hair and it was a disaster; I didn't even know the boy who did it. He just walked up to me in the hall, smeared his gum in my hair, and walked away. I immediately burst into tears, to my horror (that did wonders for my popularity) and I was too embarrassed to tell my teacher what had happened so I said I was ill instead (what illness causes an otherwise calm and happy girl to burst into hysterics? my teacher fortunately did not ask). I went and laid down (gum-haired and everything) in the nurse's office until my mom came to get me. When I told her what had happened she said that while that was very upsetting and unfair, I shouldn't leave school unless I was really sick. But I thought gum in the hair was way worse than being "really" sick! Even today, I think I'd choose sickness over a brutal sadness/humiliation combo.

Come to think of it, most of my "fake" sicknesses revolved closely around how hideously unpopular I was on any given day, or whether if I had a report due that I hadn't finished...but if it had been a nice day I probably would have stuck things out so I didn't get trapped in bed all day. Maybe even if it had been the gum-hair day.

Poor anecdote. All sicknesses are real sicknesses, on pretty days. :(

Posted by: Alexandra at April 27, 2009 11:32 AM


In the interest of full disclosure, I should note that I made myself an easy unpopularity target. My parents had always let me dress myself, viewing clothing as equal parts self-expression and play; and I returned the favor by dressing myself in alarmingly childish, or just plain hideous, things. So in the sixth-grade snakepit, when everyone else was wearing their carpenter jeans and baby tees (oh, mid-90's fashion, I'm so glad you were short-lived) I was wearing legging-and-tunic sets, often with flowers or checkers or some other childish pattern on them. And I couldn't even blame it on my mom because it was my choice. I wore them with pride and wore the resulting unpopularity like some hideously unmatched accessory.

Actually, unpopularity was not the worst consequence of me being allowed to dress myself from a young age. When I was about 4 or 5, my father had to watch us for one weekend for some reason, and he had to make an emergency business trip to Boston. So on Saturday morning he woke us all up nice and early and told us to pick out our favorite plane dresses (we used to dress up for plane rides; to this day I cannot shake the urge to "look pleasant for the other people on the plane"), and took us to Boston with him. I chose a pink dress, white socks, and little black mary janes, displaying far more fashion wisdom at 5 than I would at 13.

He was working in a theater there, which was at that point in the morning empty except for the stage hands. During a coffee break I skipped out to the center of the stage, looked out at the massive house, and began to twirl. It was my stage debut. I eventually worked myself up to such a speed that my dress flew up, and it became readily apparent to everyone present that I had not included underwear as part of my "plane trip clothes." Perhaps I was dressing for comfort, but more likely I just forgot (there was a bit of a learning curve with the getting-dressed thing; I think I have the hang of everything now though: underwear yes, kitten-patterned leggings no). Dad ran up onstage to get me but I had already cemented my reputation.

Now I work in the same industry as my father, and to this day I come across people who meet me and say, "Oh my gosh, I know your dad! You probably don't remember, but the last time I saw you was in Boston...." As though I could ever forget. I swear, you flash everyone once, in the 80's no less, and you never live it down.

Posted by: Alexandra at April 27, 2009 11:49 AM


"janet, possibly preventing implantation from occuring is not an abortion nor is it possibly devasting."
Posted by: minnow at April 27, 2009 9:25 AM

What is implantation? Attachment to the uterine wall.

What is implanted?
a fertilized egg

What is a fertilized egg?
A sperm and egg joined

What is a sperm and egg joined?
A new human being.

If this human being is not allowed to progress through its normal stages of development to birth, it dies. We all know this is what happens in abortion. For some people, the death of a fellow human being CAN be devastating.


Posted by: Janet at April 27, 2009 11:57 AM


yllas,

"An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:"

"Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S."
"Person A makes claim C about subject S. "
"Therefore, C is true."


Thanks for posting. It will come in handy.

* * * *

"Janet,
Kate does sound familiar to me as well. But why do we care?"

Carla,
Reallly?
Good question. Ummm..... you know....Hmmmmm..... Oh, ummmm.....


* * * *

Alexandra,

"In the interest of full disclosure,"

LOL! Good story!

* * * *

Have a good day, all!

Posted by: Janet at April 27, 2009 12:08 PM


Alexandra,
I simply adore you!!

Janet,
I could find out easy enough.

Posted by: Carla at April 27, 2009 1:43 PM


Gee Kate, I thought pro-lifers were supposed to be the ones who lack compassion!
There may be "some" women who don't regret their abortions but with many it is simply a matter of time. Just because "some" don't regret it is not an argument to support the choice to kill an innocent human being. That little innocent is not going to be imposing itself on its mother forever -- only 9 months. So it is paternalistic to remove "choice" for women? Well, I think that it is cruel for women to kill unborn innocent human males and females.

Posted by: Eileen #2 at April 27, 2009 3:05 PM


The argument, if one reads closely, is not that OTC Plan B availability will increase violent rape, but that it will increase statutory rape. The incident with PP involved a young teen and a 30-year-old boyfriend. The idea isn't that the rapist will shove the pill down the throat of the unconscious victim, it is that he (or his victim) will procure the pill and avoid having to talk to a medical professional about the illicit relationship.

And as someone who knows what it is like to *maybe* have lost a child, but not be sure--it's not fun.

Posted by: YCW at April 27, 2009 4:21 PM