Video of elderly priest Fr. Norman Weslin's arrest at Notre Dame

This is heartbreaking...

[HT: reader Mary Q.]


Comments:

this is only the beginning.
Remember prolifers, are terrorists according to the Obama administration.

I have to ask myself where are the seminarians?
Where are the young priests?

Posted by: angel at May 16, 2009 8:22 AM


This is exactly what bigotry and intolerance looks like. There is no way you could protest a coal fired electric plant using the exact same people and motions and get arrested.

Posted by: xppc at May 16, 2009 8:44 AM


Wow, so Fr. Jenkins is authorizing the arrest of his own brothers in Christ for their protest of abortion? Amazing. :(

Posted by: Allison at May 16, 2009 8:45 AM


All I can say is those cops are absolute professionals because if I was a police officer and I had to deal with someone this uncooperative and resisting arrest I probably would have gotten out the taser and I wouldn't have been using sillystring to tie him up either, but handcuffs.

Posted by: devo at May 16, 2009 8:50 AM


I can't imagine having the grace to sing while being arrested. God bless the good father!

Posted by: Fed Up at May 16, 2009 8:53 AM


What greater testament to the hellish depth to which Fr. Jenkins and his Board of Directors have dragged the University named in honor of Our Lady. May God have mercy on his proud and wretched soul.

Posted by: John Francis Borra at May 16, 2009 9:03 AM


devo,

Exactly how would you have wanted to see Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. treated by the police as he was arrested leading a civil rights demonstration?

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 9:17 AM


devo 8:50am

I just saw the video. You were being facetious, right? I just want to be certain before I step in it.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 9:25 AM


All I can say is those cops are absolute professionals because if I was a police officer and I had to deal with someone this uncooperative and resisting arrest I probably would have gotten out the taser and I wouldn't have been using sillystring to tie him up either, but handcuffs.
Posted by: devo at May 16, 2009 8:50 AM

yes and that would have been the use of unnecessary force and you would be disciplined.
You can't just go around tasering old priests, you fool!

Posted by: angel at May 16, 2009 9:30 AM



Let's pretend Father Weslin is an animal rights extremist who is protesting the opening of a fur store while wearing only a faux fur loincloth.

He would be a hero to the left and the media.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 9:30 AM


No, I wasn't being facetious. Whether or not you agree with Fr. Weslin's cause, what he was doing was, plain and simple, criminal trespass on private property. I believe the cops handled it very well and showed great forbearance because they would have been within their rights to tase him or drag him off after he continually refused to cooperate, his old age notwithstanding.

As for your question about MLK Jr., my feelings would be exactly the same for his case as they are here. "Civil disobedience" is still disobedience and if it runs afoul of the law then sanctions must be resorted to.

Posted by: devo at May 16, 2009 9:33 AM


Truly shocking! IF this priest were protesting any thing other than LIFE of the unborn, the above commenter would PRAISE the protestor! Shame on us all, for putting the life of animals, vegetables - and likely some minerals above the lives of the unborn.

God Bless, Father Weslin!!

Posted by: elizabethk at May 16, 2009 9:37 AM


"Shame on us all, for putting the life of ... likely some minerals above the lives of the unborn."

LOL.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 16, 2009 9:39 AM


devo 9:33am

You may be too young to remember but this is exactly how Dr.King led a civil rights movement.

Its also how Gandhi freed India.

Its how folks on the left brought attention to the Vietnam War and helped bring down the LBJ presidency.

Its called civil disobedience.

Taser and old priest? Come on Devo, even you have your limits.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 9:40 AM


devo,

Just a thought. Without civil disobedience black Americans would have spent a lot more time at the back of the bus, and away from the voting booth.

Maybe you want to rethink your Dr.King comment.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 9:42 AM


If this does not shame you nothing will Father Jenkins. Where are the bishops?

Posted by: Maria at May 16, 2009 9:43 AM


"Taser and old priest? Come on Devo, even you have your limits."

I think that, as a police officer (which I'm not, fortunately for all the recalcitrant old priests going around protesting), my "limit" would be an old man resisting arrest by kneeling on the ground and singing "Ave Maria" about 50 times in a row after being repeatedly asked to cooperate.

"Maybe you want to rethink your Dr.King comment."

There's nothing to rethink about my MLK comment. I didn't comment on the rightness of his cause, I simply said that when you break the law then sanctions are rightly invoked in response to criminal actions.

Posted by: devo at May 16, 2009 9:47 AM


devo 9:47am


Oh please, a protesting old man. He's resisting arrest how? Is he kicking and biting?
Again devo, this is civil disobedience, something the people on the left have been doing a long time.


As for Dr.King, he and his supporters were arrested, as well as threatened, assaulted, and attacked by police dogs and fire hoses.

I'm sure you'll agree its a good thing Dr.King persisted with his civil disobedience and didn't throw his hands up in despair and give up.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 10:02 AM


devo,

Any suggestions as to how Dr.King could otherwise have led a civil rights movement except for civil disobedience?

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 10:04 AM


I don't think anybody's complaining about the way the police did their jobs, right? They did what they are supposed to do, did it well, and we all praise them for doing it. They weren't sending anyone to the gas chambers or committing an abortion or otherwise disobeying God's law, and the priest knew exactly what would happen to him when he did what he did. They are supposed to enforce the laws that exist, and they did. I don't know if pro-life police officers would be excused from doing the arrest, but I think I agree with Devo when he commends the way in which the police acted. I don't agree with his reckless remarks about tasering, etc.

Posted by: Jon at May 16, 2009 10:05 AM


I agree with Jon. Fr Weslin knew he would be provoking arrest and perhaps welcomed it. The police were very calm, respectful and did their job.

Posted by: emma at May 16, 2009 10:19 AM


Jon 10:05am

You have a point. It did not seem the police used unnecessary roughness. It helped that Father Weslin was not giving them a difficult time also. This was their job and they did it. The officers have probably done this 100 times.

Kind of reminds me of the San Francisco police who had to put up with mockery and degrading comments from the gay demonstrators they were order by then Mayor Dianne Feinstein to protect.
They showed considerable restraint. They had their orders and they followed them.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 10:20 AM


EEEEwwww, they shouldn't have done that to a man of God. I'm God fearing. They should be also.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 10:20 AM


Heather, who says they aren't God-fearing?

Posted by: Jon at May 16, 2009 10:24 AM


It really is a spiritual battle. It's only going to get worse, so I really am not shocked. No freedom of religion anymore? As Liz from Nebraska always says, we are turning into Nazi Germany. The evil froces want to win this country over, but fear not. Judgement day is coming for us all. We're dead a whole lot longer than we're alive! Stay close to the Lord.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 10:25 AM


Just to be clear, I'm referring--and I thought that Heather at 10:20 a.m. was referring--to the police officers.

Posted by: Jon at May 16, 2009 10:27 AM


Jon, I'd hate to be those cops right now. The judgement is coming. They didn't have to do that. What did the priest even do?

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 10:27 AM


Jon, I was. Okay. Why did they arrest him? Let's begin there.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 10:28 AM


He broke the law that the police officers were asked to enforce. And it's not a law that is contrary to God's law. It's a law concerning private property.

Posted by: Jon at May 16, 2009 10:29 AM


Was he walking on their property? I watched the video twice and I don't see what happened prior to the arrest.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 10:32 AM


Can't recall where I heard it, Heather, but I believe the cops were ordered to arrest any protesters without permits. What I haven't heard is whether pro-Obama people are given the same treatment.

Posted by: Fed Up at May 16, 2009 10:32 AM


Heather, see Jill's article of May 15, 2009: "Pro-lifers, including elderly priest, arrested at Notre Dame."

Posted by: Jon at May 16, 2009 10:36 AM


Jon and Heather,

My issue is with ND. They could have told the police to leave the old priest alone.


FedUp

Good point. I don't know if there are pro-Obama demonstrators. Also, if they're students or have permits then they have a right to be on the campus.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 10:38 AM


Police officers are called on time again to do jobs they would rather not. It didn't seem to me the police were that enthralled about arresting this old man and made every effort to be respectful and careful.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 10:40 AM


it seems the "old priest" welcomes being arrested.

Posted by: emma at May 16, 2009 10:56 AM


Mary, you are correct. I understand the police and the dilemma. Caught between a rock and a hard place. The entire video just gives me an ill at ease feeling.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 10:57 AM


Father is a Warrior....we need more like him. Bless you Father I will offer my rosary for you today.

Posted by: SueBee at May 16, 2009 11:00 AM


The Priest was doing as his Father in heaven would have him do. God's laws trump mans' laws. If we do not stand against the killing of His children we will be judged as if we had the abortion ourselves.
As for the officers, they had a choice, they could have chosen to make their own stand too. They took the path to please men, not God. They too will pay for this.
To those on the left who believe the lies of abortion, I pray you rethink this issue and do your due diligence. A baby is a human life, to stop his heart in any way is murder. May God have mercy on our nation for the millions of babies in garbage buckets since Roe v Wade...

Posted by: exrea at May 16, 2009 11:16 AM


exrea, Thank you for saying what I was trying to say!!!

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 11:19 AM


maybe those officers have different beliefs. Or if they have the same, you would ask them to give up their incomes and careers for this? Would you? Have you?

Posted by: emma at May 16, 2009 11:20 AM


Fed Up, sorry. I just read where you posted. Thank you.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 11:21 AM


emman, as a pro-life nurse, I would not partake in an abortion procedure. I'd quit. I know plenty of other nurses who would do the same.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 11:22 AM


The Westboro Baptist Church and the KKK also
use(d) civil disobedience. Just because they do (did), it doesn't make their cause right.

Posted by: HDT at May 16, 2009 11:23 AM


It's about morals. I work in geriatrics. If someone ever asked me to kill someone, a patient, I would have to quit. Abortion is murder, so I would not assist in committing it.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 11:24 AM


assisting an abortion and arresting a priest who is breaking the law are the same to you?

Posted by: emma at May 16, 2009 11:26 AM


emma, you asked about jobs, income. I gave you my answer. Abortion is murder.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 11:27 AM


They could have said "no." I know. It's a tough call. $ before morals just doesn't compute for me these days.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 11:29 AM


emma, Jill was a nurse who quit woking at a hospital b/c they did abortions. There is a perfect example.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 11:31 AM


as a pro-life nurse, I would not partake in an abortion procedure

Heather, isn't it interesting that the talk of rescinding conscience protection enforcement died down after the comment period closed? One positive outcome of this ND mess is that it's forced him to delay carrying out that part of his agenda. Wonder how long is an acceptable waiting period after the ND speech to put that back on the table again?

Posted by: Fed Up at May 16, 2009 11:33 AM


heather if you were a police officer would you give up your career and income rather than arrest this man who is knowingly breaking the law by protesting on private property?

Posted by: emma at May 16, 2009 11:36 AM


I'm supposed to be busy with other things right now, but I just can't leave your comments unchallenged.

Exrea and Heather, the police officers did not have a choice. The university, I'm sure, asked them to enforce the law against trespassing. Justice is blind. The police officers did their job. They took the path to please God.

Emma, maybe those officers did have different beliefs. They, like all people, are supposed to have the right beliefs. To use the tired old example, Hitler believed that Jews were subhuman. Was he therefore justified in killing them? Were any police officers involved in their arrests--knowing their destiny and their supposed crime--justified in making the arrests? The second question is much more difficult, but it's not one we need to consider here. Here we just have to remember that the end does not justify the means. The police officers are to be commended. But I'm also not necessarily saying that the priest was wrong to engage in the civil disobedience that he showed here. I certainly commend his motives, and I maybe even commend his method.

Posted by: Jon at May 16, 2009 11:36 AM



I suppose police officers could refuse to protect child molesters in their custody. They could also refuse to help a criminal who has been shot robbing a bank or fleeing the scene of a murder.
I don't suppose officers much like the snitches and low lifes they have to depend on for information to better do their jobs and protect us.
Its all part of being a police officer.

I'm sure Father Weslin well understands this. He did nothing to harm the officers and it seemed the officers made every effort to be careful with him.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 11:37 AM


HDT, 11:23am

What exactly was the civil disobedience they engaged in?

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 11:38 AM


Fed Up, agreed! I don't know why he just doesn't say "To heck with it." He's not wanted there! Get over yourself Obama! Not everyone likes you.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 11:38 AM


emma, I just couldn't do it. Just me. I can honestly see that they had their orders. I tend to agree with Mary though. I'm sure the priest understands because of his own belief in the forces of evil.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 11:43 AM


A priest, of all people, would understand this.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 11:44 AM


his remarks on video don't support this heather

Posted by: emma at May 16, 2009 11:51 AM


I'm talking about now.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 11:53 AM


Weeks into the project (Nov. 2003), the contractor hired to build the privately funded $6.2 million Planned Parenthood abortion clinic hit a brick wall: plumbers and carpenters would not work for him. Drywall installers and heating subcontractors would not do business with him. Cement suppliers for miles around would not touch the job.

He had been hit with a boycott organized by abortion foe and construction-industry executive Chris Danze.

The builder finally quit the job this month, stopping the clinic project in its tracks, in what national Planned Parenthood officials said was the first such boycott they have ever seen.

Danze, a 48-year-old who has protested outside clinics, compares the building of an abortion clinic to construction of a concentration camp during the Holocaust. He says that he takes the positions he does against abortion because of his love for Jesus.

"We can't just look the other way," he said. "We can't just take the blood money and run."

The pull-out decision by Browning Construction Co., one of the state's largest contractors, stunned Planned Parenthood, which denounced the boycott and said it will press on with construction to discourage similar tactics elsewhere.

The privately funded $6.2 million clinic was set to open next fall (2004). It would be Planned Parenthood's first Austin clinic to offer abortions, and the fourth licensed abortion provider in Texas' capital city. The clinic also would provide health care for women and men, including gynecological services, AIDS testing, vasectomies, cancer screening and contraceptives, Planned Parenthood spokeswoman Danielle Tierney said.

Danze (an owner of Maldonado & Danze, Inc., a concrete-foundation contractor) oversaw a telephone and letter-writing campaign urging more than 750 Austin- and San Antonio-area businesses not to provide supplies or services for the project. He recruited contractors to join what he called the Texas Contractors and Suppliers for Life Association.

Soon, contractors were flooded with phone calls from the public warning them to stay away from the clinic project or face losing business.

Texas Right to Life, which claims 75,000 members, called contractors to thank them for not working on the project and to offer to share the companies' names with the anti-abortion group's members, spokeswoman Elizabeth Graham said.

Churches (over 600 of them) got involved, too. "When churches started asking me for lists of people who were working on the project, that's when we turned the corner," Danze said.

Danze said hundreds of subcontractors agreed to boycott the project, though not all of them said whether they were anti-abortion. Some simply did not want to get involved in a controversial project, he said.

Planned Parenthood's spokesperson said the boycott was waged through "intimidation and harassment." Tierney said one subcontractor, whom she would not identify, received more than 1,200 calls from around the country -- many to his home -- warning him not to participate. "This is not a simple demonstration of free speech rights," she said.

James Browning, who runs San Antonio-based Browning Construction, said he got a polite call from Danze warning him about the boycott. Groundbreaking on the clinic was held in September (2003); and, over the next six weeks, the project ground to a halt. "I never thought so many different trades would join in," Browning said. Among those boycotting were contractors in lumber, cement supply, foundation building, plumbers, heating and air-conditioning, windows, hardwood floors, roofing, insulation, landscaping and fencing, Danze said. By the time Browning pulled out, clearing and excavation and some of the underground plumbing had been done, but the foundation had not been put in.

Planned Parenthood expects resistance whenever it builds an abortion clinic, but most of the hurdles come during the permit-issuing process. The organization said it would act as its own general contractor and complete the project. Tierney said it is too soon to say whether the setback will increase costs or delay the clinic's opening. She said Planned Parenthood has received calls from other contractors who want to help. She would not name them.

Danze said he will track down any new contractors on the project and have scouts check the construction site three or four times a day. "This is going to be a battle," Danze said. "God does not want this thing built."

Why does Jesus leave His believers on this earth? We must tell about the good news; we must do good; and we must stand against evil! Chris knows that the "Free Choice" side could very well mobilize a counter-boycott against his company. Courageously, he says that such is a risk he just has to take in order to stand against the evil murdering of the unborn...the deliberate shedding of innocent blood (by the end of 2003, over 40 million killed by abortion in the USA alone since Roe v. Wade).

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 11:57 AM


These were some good men!!! I would have refused too.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 11:59 AM


now? Why would he think differently now? He's been through this before. He doesn't seem very understanding.

Posted by: emma at May 16, 2009 12:00 PM


He's not wanted there!

I wish I could agree with that. Obviously he IS wanted by many people there. Sadly, I think his Alinsky playbook had a page to further polarize Catholics and ND handed him the perfect opportunity. A gentleman might excuse himself from the fray and acknowledge that his presence is deeply offensive to many in the Church. A community organizer intent on agitating discontent is likely to do something different.

Posted by: Fed Up at May 16, 2009 12:02 PM


After his arrest.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 12:02 PM


but he's been arrested many times before for this. Why do you think he'd be suddenly understanding of the police's position after this arrest?

Posted by: Emma at May 16, 2009 12:06 PM


"maybe those officers have different beliefs. Or if they have the same, you would ask them to give up their incomes and careers for this? Would you? Have you?
Posted by: emma at May 16, 2009 11:20 AM"
==================================================

To answer your ? Yes in a word I would forfeit my income & my career to stand for my beliefs. & Yes I take up that stand every day.
Regarding the 'believing' officers: I did not ask them to, Jesus did. The officers did have a choice, if they are none believers then they handled the job with as much dignity as they could. However, if they were believers they took the path of sin. They chose to abide by mans law instead of Gods law.
Funny how the libs cry about choice but when others abide by their God given choice they cry foul...seems hypocritical to me! Choice is not just about abortion, it is a choice to serve God or not. So you do not believe in the God I do, that is your choice but you do NOT have the right to impose your choice upon Christians. I freely allow you your choice, even if I believe it is in error, it is still your CHOICE! Please allow me & other Christians the same rights you scream about!
Finally I ask, What about the unborn childs' choice???
Please, remember with each choice we make (believer or not) there are consequences some of which carry a lifetime effect...

Posted by: exrea at May 16, 2009 12:08 PM


exrea,

Let me ask you this. In order to obtain information on major criminal activity, police often have to rely on low level street criminals, turning a blind eye to their activities.
I'm sure the police would rather not, but they aren't going to get information on criminal activity from the residents of the nearest convent.
Yes, the police officers are doing what they don't like to do, being forced to tolerate a little less evil in exchange for ending bigger evil.

Would Jesus approve of this?

I'm not trying to get into any theological debates here.
I'm trying to point out that officers have a job to do and there's plenty they are forced to tolerate that you and I couldn't stomach.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 12:22 PM


Jon, it's rather silly to say the police officers "had no choice". Everyone has a choice, in every instance. They just didn't like the consequences of the choice not to obey their orders to arrest the priest. What about the temple guards who arrested Jesus, do you think they just "doing their jobs like God wanted them to"? Devo, if they'd had tasers back then, do you think they should've used them?

Posted by: Doyle Chadwick at May 16, 2009 12:28 PM


Doyle, I'm saying that any police officer who would refuse to arrest the trespassing priest would actually be disobeying God and applying an unequal standard in the execution of justice. Justice is blind. It shouldn't matter who stands in the dock, whether the accused be a priest, O.J. Simpson, or President Obama himself.

Posted by: Jon at May 16, 2009 12:36 PM


It's a bit less "heartbreaking" when you find out the old man is a grifter who provokes arrest (for the 200th time) then takes a dive and plays "oh poor me" doubtless followed by trying to sue the cops for "brutality"

Posted by: Bystander at May 16, 2009 12:38 PM


that's my thought too bystander. Do you think he's even as feeble-minded as he seems to be on video? Theatrics?

Posted by: emma at May 16, 2009 12:47 PM


And the ND police may be justifiably suspicious of the company he keeps:
Kopp was on the FBI’s Most Wanted List for over two years before his capture in France in March 2001. He has pleaded not guilty to the New York state charge of second-degree murder. He also has pleaded not guilty to the related charges of violating the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act, which prohibits violence and threats of violence to impede receiving or providing abortion services.

Kopp was present at pivotal episodes in the history of militant anti-abortion activism. He has been arrested in connection with numerous clinic blockades, including a major blockade of the Ladies Center in Pensacola. Fla., in 1986. The center was later the site of the first known murder of an abortion provider, Gunn, by local clinic protestor Michael Griffin. Kopp is also credited with authoring sections of the Army of God manual, a how-to for violence against abortion providers. Kopp also served as the advance man for the Catholic direct-action group Lambs of Christ, headed by the Rev. Norman Weslin. In 1992 Weslin told a reporter: “Unless you understand that this is a colossal war between Jesus Christ and Satan, you don’t understand what we are doing.”

Posted by: HDT at May 16, 2009 1:11 PM


Bystander,

Keep in mind that Mahatma Gandhi was viewed as some rabble rousing simple minded old man provoking arrest and playing on people's sympathy.

Dr. King was viewed as a trouble making uppity n----- looking to make a name for himself and a "tool" of the international communist conspiracy. Why "our black folk" were real happy until King stirred things up.

Typical reaction to people we wish would shut up and go away.

How often has Father Weslin sued the police and how much money has he made doing so?

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 1:20 PM


"Let me ask you this. In order to obtain information on major criminal activity, police often have to rely on low level street criminals, turning a blind eye to their activities.
I'm sure the police would rather not, but they aren't going to get information on criminal activity from the residents of the nearest convent.
Yes, the police officers are doing what they don't like to do, being forced to tolerate a little less evil in exchange for ending bigger evil.

Would Jesus approve of this?

I'm not trying to get into any theological debates here.
I'm trying to point out that officers have a job to do and there's plenty they are forced to tolerate that you and I couldn't stomach.
Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 12:22 PM"
=================================================

Let's look deeper into an officers 'choice'. The first thing is they have a choice of being an officer to begin with. They were not forced to take up that career. If they cannot fulfill their obligations to their Lord first then they made an improper choice of careers. The second thing is if the Lord wanted them to be an officer He still wants their dedication first & foremost in their lives. Their consequences for their choices in fulfilling their duties shines the love of God in the world, or should. Finally, Jesus would not approve even the lesser evil...God (the one I serve) molds me daily to become one with Him. And in Him there is NO evil!
These are my opinions, you can take them or leave them...it's your choice...

Posted by: Anonymous at May 16, 2009 1:22 PM


Let me ask you this. In order to obtain information on major criminal activity, police often have to rely on low level street criminals, turning a blind eye to their activities.
I'm sure the police would rather not, but they aren't going to get information on criminal activity from the residents of the nearest convent.
Yes, the police officers are doing what they don't like to do, being forced to tolerate a little less evil in exchange for ending bigger evil.

Would Jesus approve of this?

I'm not trying to get into any theological debates here.
I'm trying to point out that officers have a job to do and there's plenty they are forced to tolerate that you and I couldn't stomach.
Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 12:22 PM

The above post was mine, it was not intentional to post as anonymous.

Posted by: exrea at May 16, 2009 1:24 PM


Hi Doyle 12:28PM

Its likely the temple guards viewed Jesus as just another troublemaker they were getting off the street. Also, disobeying orders in that era could have some very dire consequences.
I understand a Roman soldier who defied orders or fell asleep on duty would be doused with a flammatory liquid and ignited.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 1:25 PM


Fed Up -- you are so right! Fr. Jenkins et al. are "useful idiots" to Obama and his socialist comrades.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 16, 2009 1:26 PM


"Let me ask you this. In order to obtain information on major criminal activity, police often have to rely on low level street criminals, turning a blind eye to their activities.
I'm sure the police would rather not, but they aren't going to get information on criminal activity from the residents of the nearest convent.
Yes, the police officers are doing what they don't like to do, being forced to tolerate a little less evil in exchange for ending bigger evil.

Would Jesus approve of this?

I'm not trying to get into any theological debates here.
I'm trying to point out that officers have a job to do and there's plenty they are forced to tolerate that you and I couldn't stomach.
Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 12:22 PM"
=================================================

Let's look deeper into an officers 'choice'. The first thing is they have a choice of being an officer to begin with. They were not forced to take up that career. If they cannot fulfill their obligations to their Lord first then they made an improper choice of careers. The second thing is if the Lord wanted them to be an officer He still wants their dedication first & foremost in their lives. Their consequences for their choices in fulfilling their duties shines the love of God in the world, or should. Finally, Jesus would not approve even the lesser evil...God (the one I serve) molds me daily to become one with Him. And in Him there is NO evil!
These are my opinions, you can take them or leave them...it's your choice...
Posted by: Anonymous at May 16, 2009 1:22 PM

oops, I goofed again this is the post I did not intend to post as anonymous...

Posted by: exrea at May 16, 2009 1:27 PM


Yes, Mary, you are correct in that the punishment was death -- I am not aware as to the method used, however.

Posted by: Eileen #2 at May 16, 2009 1:28 PM


The graduating class of Notre Dame would be better off if Fr. Weslin could be their commencement speaker. They would see a real example of the Faith their parents hopefully sent them to Notre Dame to enhance:

"Apr 7, 2007
Jury finds pro-life Fr. Norman Weslin not guilty
The news media definitely are not trumpeting it, but there is great pro-life news.

A jury in federal court in Omaha has found Father Norman Weslin, founder of the Lambs of Christ, not guilty of violating the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act.

Father Weslin's alleged "federal crime" was that last April he prayed the Rosary in a security anteroom of the abortion business of the notorious LeRoy Carhart and, while speaking through a mail slot to the waiting room, urged abortion customers inside to let their babies live.

Had he been convicted, Father Weslin could have gotten 18 months in federal prison, three years of probation and a fine of $25,000."

Amazing and courageous man:

http://onelacatholic.blogspot.com/2007/04/please-pray-for-fr-norman-weslin-on.html

Posted by: KC at May 16, 2009 1:29 PM


"Kopp also served as the advance man for the Catholic direct-action group Lambs of Christ, headed by the Rev. Norman Weslin. In 1992 Weslin told a reporter: “Unless you understand that this is a colossal war between Jesus Christ and Satan, you don’t understand what we are doing."

I believe this is what conservative-minded folk would refer to as "paling around with terrorists"... well, only if it was a Democrat politician, a conservative pro-life priest can probably get a pass here.

Posted by: Devo at May 16, 2009 1:37 PM


exrea 1:22PM

Yes officers have choices. We can look at this from a couple of angles.
Do I want the police officer to do what is necessary to protect me, my family, and my community? Absolutely.
Am I thrilled when I get pulled over for a traffic violation? Hardly. I'm sure we have all experienced that sick feeling.

Maybe that officer will have to turn a blind eye to the antics of some low level criminal, who is a great "snitch" to better protect you and me in the long run.

Maybe that officer will be forced to remove you when you tresspass without a permit.

Maybe that officer will put his/her life on the line to protect you. Maybe even sacrifice his/her life to save yours. If you suspect someone is lurking around your home, do you hesitate for a moment to call the police and in effect ask them to do just that?

exrea, the officer's job is not cut and dried.
Its in fact damned dirty. It requires the officer face situations he or she has no choice in and must respond to. The officer cannot decide he/she will do this and not that. Just as a firefighter can't select which fires he/she will respond to or paramedics can choose which emergency patients they will treat.

Aren't you grateful their are courageous and dedicated men and women who will do this job?
My brother was at one time one of them.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 1:38 PM


This is my final thoughts on this issue, as I have lots of things to attend.

I am a Christian and in so I refuse to kill unborn babies or have any part of it. That is my choice. If the libs out there are true to themselves in believing in 'choice' then they must allow me the choice of Christ and of life for the unborn. All your poopaganda otherwise is nothing more then incessant prattle trying to convince themselves & others 'they' are right.

However, I choose life! Again, I stand my ground and stand for the unborn. I pray you find the joy in life I have found too.......

This is the day the Lord has made, I will rejoice and be glad in it!

Posted by: exrea at May 16, 2009 1:43 PM


Devo 1:37PM

Would you please explain, who was palling around with what terrorist?

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 1:45 PM


KC 1:29PM

Was that the same "clinic" that looked like someplace someone would take stolen cars to be "chopped" and in a neighborhood one wouldn't take an afternoon stroll in?

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 1:48 PM


Mary, refer to HDT's post at 1:11 PM.

Fr. Weslin worked with a known anti-abortion radical who was on the FBI's Most Wanted List and is suspected in at least one homicide, among other things.

Posted by: Devo at May 16, 2009 1:56 PM


At one time Koop was associated with the Missionaries of Chairty, do you consider them radicals? Anyone can join any group. Stop trying to vilify Father Weslin, he was a great witness for Life. The police had a choice, do what you're told, even if it's wrong. God will have the final say.

Posted by: Barbara at May 16, 2009 2:07 PM


Bystander,

Thank you. I must admit Kopp sounds as bad as those friends of President Obama, Ayers and Dohrn, who either personally or by members of Ayers' terrorist group "the weathermen" set off explosives, killed police officers, and attempted to kill a judge and his family.
They also went on a rampage in downtown Chicago destroying millions in property and battling police officers.

Something can certainly be said about judging someone by the company he keeps.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 2:09 PM


HDT and Devo Good info on this guy. There are a number of "pro life" grifters and wanna be terrorists among the crowd in South Bend, and I am sure the FBI and Secret Service have obtained good intelligence and are keeping an eye on them.

Posted by: Bystander at May 16, 2009 2:09 PM



My apologies. My 2:09PM post should be addressed to Devo, not bystander.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 2:11 PM


Barbara, it seems the point of my post is lost on you. I am demonstrating the double standard here where Barack Obama was viciously demonized by the kinds of conservatives who frequent this site for his supposed befriending of terrorist(s) (namely Bill Ayers) and yet Fr. Weslin is given a pass despite closely working together with a man who was on the FBI's Most Wanted List.

Posted by: Devo at May 16, 2009 2:12 PM


Bystander 2:09PM

Can you name these "grifters" and "wanna be terrorists" and give us some history on them?

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 2:14 PM


Mary, you really have to go cold turkey off of Faux Noise. No one cares about those two has beens, and constantly bringing them up makes you look as silly as Sean Hannity.

By the way did Sean undergo that waterboarding, or did he discover it would muss his hair?

Posted by: Bystander at May 16, 2009 2:14 PM


Bystander 2:14PM

LOL. You mean we should ignore some inconvenient history, right?
Look, you folks are discussing terrorist associations, I'm just joining the discussion.

You'll have to ask Sean that question.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 2:18 PM


Grifters? We have Randall Terry, Alan Keyes, Scheidler, Norma Mc Corvey, Ron Brock, not sure if Bob Enyart and Ken Scott have made it there yet.Most have a history of arrest and/or violence.

Their histories are a matter of record and involve hundreds of pages. Google and enjoy.

Posted by: Bystander at May 16, 2009 2:21 PM


Devo 2:12PM

Double standards is correct. Obama was given a pass. I do not support or condone Kopp, but next to Ayers and Dohrn he looks like a rank amateur.
Supposed friendship? In the afterword of his memoir Ayers describes Obama as a "family friend".
Obama launched his political career in the living room of Ayers and Dohrn. Do you hold events in the living rooms of people you hardly know?

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 2:28 PM


Bystander 2:21PM

Please, you tell me specifically what crimes they have committed. Histories of arrest? Dr.King had a history of arrests. I would hardly call him a criminal.

Norma McCorvey is who helped get abortion legalized in this country. If the PC crowd hadn't treated her like dirt after using her for their purposes, she may have stuck with the cause.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 2:33 PM


I don't know how you can make the claim that Kopp looks like a "rank amateur" next to Ayers and Dohrn, considering Kopp was on the FBI's Most Wanted list for years and neither Ayers or Dorhn were ever even convicted of any crimes. There is nothing "amateur" about the man at all; he is a hardened criminal.

I'm not getting into one of these arguments again about just how close Bill Ayers and Barack Obama knew each other; the only thing relevant here is that there was some kind of relationship there, professional or personal, between both men, just as there is some kind of relationship here, professional or personal, between Fr. Weslin and Kopp. Conservatives were apoplectic about Ayers/Obama but the revelation in this very comment thread about Kopp's connections to Weslin were all but ignored completely until I brought up this double-standard and forced the issue.

Posted by: Devo at May 16, 2009 2:36 PM


Gee,Mary, Bob Enyart went to jail for mercilessly beating a 7 year old with a belt.

Ken Scott's criminal and mental health history would take thousands of words, as it did in the Westword article of a few years ago. Ken Scott's greatest "hits"- going to jail for refusing to provide support for his own children, slamming his wife's head through a wall, and suing the judge who ordered him to pay child support. Four or more stints in the looney bin. Pro life hero.

I don't recall Dr. King doing those things.

Posted by: Bystander at May 16, 2009 2:43 PM


"Norma McCorvey is who helped get abortion legalized in this country. If the PC crowd hadn't treated her like dirt after using her for their purposes, she may have stuck with the cause."

I'm not sure how the "PC crowd" could have treated her like dirt after using her for their purposes considering she was completely anonymous, known only as "Jane Roe", until she willingly revealed herself many years after Roe v. Wade. At any rate, I would say her actions since then definitely qualify her, as Bystander said, as a grifter, considering she has cashed in on her notoriety by writing books and allowing her name and likeness to be used for political purposes.

Posted by: Devo at May 16, 2009 2:44 PM


Bystander,

That's only two. What crimes did the others you mention commit?

My point about Dr. King is people can have an arrest record but not be seen as criminals. There were those who considered King a criminal.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 2:49 PM


1 John 3:12-14 (New International Version)
12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 2:58 PM


John 7:6-7 (New International Version)

6Therefore Jesus told them, "The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right. 7The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 3:00 PM


John 3:19-21 (New International Version)
19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 3:01 PM


1 John 3:12-14 (New International Version)
12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 3:02 PM


Luke 16:13 (New International Version)

13"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 3:03 PM


Amos 5:21 (New International Version)

21 "I hate, I despise your religious feasts;
I cannot stand your assemblies.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 3:04 PM


Amos 5:21 (New International Version)

21 "I hate, I despise your religious feasts;
I cannot stand your assemblies.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 3:05 PM


Matthew 7:20-22 (New International Version)
20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 3:07 PM


Luke 6:46 (New International Version)

The Wise and Foolish Builders
46"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 3:08 PM


John 10:10 (New International Version)
10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 3:09 PM


Matthew 7:14-16 (New International Version)
14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

A Tree and Its Fruit
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 3:10 PM


Devo,

Check into the history of Ayers and Dohrn.
Ayers founded the terrorist group the Weather Underground". His charming wife Bernadine Dohrn was also a member. BTW she had only the greatest admiration for the Manson Family and their butchery, ecstatically howling over their sticking forks in their victims.

The WU, Ayers and Dohrn were involved in the Days of Rage in Chicago, which started with blowing up a statue honoring police officers. The group then went on to destroy millions of dollars in property during a rampage of vandalism.

Ayers' organization bombed the home of a judge with no regard to the fact his wife and children were in the home.

Set off a bomb in the Pentagon bathroom

Set off a bomb at a New york State Dept. of Correction.

1970, Ayers and Dohrn go underground, Dohrn winds up on FBI most wanted list.

March 1970, 3 members of Ayers WU, using techniques he taught them, blow themselves to hell making nail bombs that they intended to set off at a Fort Dix dance.

September 1970, Ayers' WU helps drug lord escape prison and hides him.

1976-1977 Charges agains Ayers and Dohrn dropped because of prosecutorial misconduct, not because they were found innocent.

1980 Ayers and Dohrn come out of hiding and turn themselves in.

In a recent development the San Francisco Police Officers Association stated that "evidence in the 1970 bombing murder of a San Francisco police officer points to Weather Underground members Bernadine Dohrn and Bill Ayers".

Maybe now you can understand how I can make that claim Devo. Some real sterling characters here.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 3:15 PM


You Notre Dame hypocrites..........you brood of vipers.

Mr. Jenkins are you listening? How can you stand to be called Father when death is on your head? You are no Father.

Mr. Kmiec.....you are the worst kind of yeast. You have fouled the assembly of the worthy. You should be ashamed of your heinous stand on abortion.

Here's a word from God for both of you:

Hebrews 10:26-31

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY " And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."

31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 3:16 PM


I call on the security at Notre Dame to be men, real men or resign.

When you follow the orders of your heinous supervisors to do this kind of injustice the blood on innocents be on your and your faily's head.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 3:21 PM


Should we expect anything less from those that would supoport, promote, and perform the killing of innocent childrne in the womb?

What kind of threat does this elderly priest, this saint, represent to this University other than to protest their decision to give a voice to the most pro-death Presidnet in history?

It is no longer Notre Dame, it is Notre Beelzebub.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 3:26 PM


Devo 2:44PM

McCorvery was a mentally unstable woman who claimed to be pregnant by a gang rape. Her lawyers apparently were not concerned with the veracity of her story prior to going to the Supreme Court. As far as I know, they have never acknowledged if they knew she lied.

McCorvey's name became known, I remember reading about her in the newspaper. For heaven sakes they made a TV movie of her starring Holly Hunter no less. It flopped. She also sought the respect she felt was her due from the PC movement. She admitted to the late journalist, Carl T. Rowan that she lied about being a rape victim, her pregnancy was the result of an affair with a married man. Not exactly something that would inspire a lot of sympathy like a gang rape would.

The PC crowd regarded her as little more than white trash and treated her as such. She had served her purpose.

Please tell me the great sums of money McCorvey has made "cashing in on her notoriety". Tell me about her palatial home and Mercedes Benz.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 3:27 PM


Mr. Jenkins:

Got Word?

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 3:30 PM


It's time for all of you Catholic pro-lifers (and it's sad that I have to be oxymoronic here), to withdraw your financial support from that University up there that claims to represent God's mother.

Yes, God's mother, a young girl, not yet married, impregnated by the Holy Spirit with the Savior of the world, who, if she lived today, would be allowed to legally kill the Savior of Mankind.

And we have a University that bears her name actually supporting her decision to kill her own baby. Is it me? Does anyone GET how blasphemous this all is?

The leaders at ND are either morons or the most evil people on the face of the earth. There is no middle ground here.

Does anyone realize how eschatological this all is? Yes, His return is near.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 3:37 PM


I think they need to make a sequel to "Pulp Fiction" with HisMan as the Samuel L. Jackson character ("great vengance and furious anger").

Now that the Craz-o-meter has been set at 11, I will sign off for now. Have fun getting arrested.

Posted by: Bystander at May 16, 2009 3:49 PM


Bystander:

Don't twist it. If they we're killing you I'd be just as pissed off.

On second thought maybe I wouldn't. Ya see, you're just not that innocent.

Oh and on your film casting aspirations, I think you should stick to being the pro-death abortion hack loser that you so expertly reveal yourself to be.

Oh, you're leaving? Why don't you stay left?

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 4:19 PM


To all you pro-death twisted sisters:

Your death mania, self-delusional position is untenable (look the word up).

ABORTION IS MURDER! AND IF THE MURDER OF JUST ONE INNOCENT CHILD DOESN'T MAKE YOU'RE BLOOD BOIL CHECK YOUR COLD BLOODED MURDERING HEART.

It is not I who is whacked out here. It's the perverted likes of a witch like Bystander who stays on this site every day promoting the ripping, the mutilation, the tearing, and the poisoning of Innocent children in the womb.

Pro-lifers, get off your wimp duff and stand against the likes of these murdering creeps. They are modern day blood sucking vampires.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 4:27 PM


This one's for you Bystander:

Isaiah 5:20 (New International Version)

20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.


Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 4:34 PM


Way to keep things classy and mature, HisMan. You're a real asset to the pro-life movement, whatwith your gentle disposition and thoughtful comments.

Posted by: Devo at May 16, 2009 4:58 PM


Arresting an elderly priest on a Catholic university ? for standing up for the unborn? while they welcome with open arms President abortion?

May God save your souls Notre Dame. The devil owns you.

Posted by: Jasper at May 16, 2009 5:24 PM


Devo:

You're no different than an imprisoned murderer except that the law condones your actions and you're not behind bars. If it was up to me, you and all cowards like you would be thrown into prison with the key thrown away.

If you think the Lord is going to be kind and gentle with you when He finally meets you're unrepentant heart, go ahead, takes ur chances. When you crap all over yourself as you look down at the deep abyss that's going to be your eternal home, you'll be wishing you had listened but, it will be too late.

As far as classy goes, don't you dare dictate to me what classy is, you murdering pro-abort, you pervert baby mutilater. You who promote the murder of innocent children.

You see Devo, I don't see what you support as any different than walking into my house and putting a gun to my twelve year old's head if by some chance you could get by me. I guarantee you if people realized that about abortion, the likes of you would be toast you freak.

And 36 years of the kind and innocent BS has done one thing, it's allowed your blood sucking kind to kill millions more babies, innocent babies whose only crime was the desire to be born.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 6:03 PM


"You're no different than an imprisoned murderer except that the law condones your actions and you're not behind bars."

Oh, plus I've never killed anyone. Trifling detail, I know.

And you can save your spook stories about divine wrath, deep abysses and eternal homes because I don't believe a single shred of it.

Posted by: Devo at May 16, 2009 6:14 PM


Devo, Supporting murder is the same as doing it. What if I told you "I've never raped anyone, but I support it."

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 6:31 PM


Devo, I assume you are a male. Your "right to choose" IS your "right to choose" not to pay any child support. That's the only reason we have PC men.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 6:33 PM


My girlfriend had an abortion, and she is now a PL conservative. The manager of her mother's apartment building is a die hard lib. haha. Funny story. Bruce gets so irrate, he turns purple.....He told my friend, "I would die to protect a woman's right to choose." She said "No." "You would die to keep from paying 18 years of child support."

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 6:37 PM


Such arguing!

Can't we discuss something that does not turn into a debate? We children's rights activists cannot turn them by debating with them at the moment- they feel superiority already over unborn children. For once would it not be nicer to focus on what we can do as pro-lifers to help out, discuss our individual views, and perhaps go a day without a debate that ends up with nothing gained and everything lost?

For anyone here who is pro-choice, I would kindly ask that you search for the semblance of humanity that remains intact, and stop with your constant acerbic comments and your mocking tones. You don't have to be so cold to people, really; you're a person, too.

I mean, this is ridiculous: can we for once have a discussion that does not collapse into an argument over pro-choice? Our enemy is not a pro-choice man or woman; our enemy must be abortion; the evil in humanity and not humanity itself.

Posted by: Vannah at May 16, 2009 6:42 PM


Vannah, there have been PC posters here who debated with skill and patience. They were chased away by people like Jasper and HisMan. When you encourage those posters, you lose the people who actually are interested in expanding their views, even if they aren't interested in necessarily changing them. Do you see what I'm saying?

Posted by: Erin at May 16, 2009 6:55 PM


And you can save your spook stories about divine wrath, deep abysses and eternal homes because I don't believe a single shred of it.

Posted by: Devo at May 16, 2009 6:14 PM
____________________

That's obvious but, very, very dumb.

You also probably don't believe in Divine Creation, the Resurrection or in Eternal Judgement.

Here's an IQ test for you:

Believer in God is to pro-life as infidel is to
_ _ _- _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _. I'll give you a clue. It's what you are.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 6:56 PM


"Devo, Supporting murder is the same as doing it. What if I told you "I've never raped anyone, but I support it.""

That's completely absurd. There isn't a moral or legal system in the entire world that equates performing an action with "supporting" it. What you're getting at here crosses into the realm of thought crimes. There is a reason we don't have criminal sanctions on "supporting" crimes. Even attempted murder and being an accessory to a murder are prosecuted much less severely than actual murder.

"For anyone here who is pro-choice, I would kindly ask that you search for the semblance of humanity that remains intact, and stop with your constant acerbic comments and your mocking tones. You don't have to be so cold to people, really; you're a person, too."

I don't think anybody in this entire comment thread has acted as coldly as the pro-life guy who said pro-choice people are morally equivalent to convicted, imprisoned murderers and should also be locked up thusly.

Posted by: Devo at May 16, 2009 6:56 PM


Devo, I'll tell you what. I can link you to some sites about abortion. When God brought me into the understanding that abortion was a lie.- I fell for the "blob of tissue" lie for years - I began to do my own research. I found Jill's site. I found Death Roe.com. I found Operation Rescue. An abortion at 9 months? WHO KNEW?...I've always been against abortion, but I can tell you that in the past, I never thought it was my place to make that decision for anyone else.....Got truth? You need it.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 6:59 PM


Hi Erin! *waves*

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 7:01 PM


Hi Heather! How have you been lately?

Posted by: Erin at May 16, 2009 7:02 PM


Good Erin. Yourself?

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 7:05 PM


I'll be back in a few. Want to see Nancy Grace for a minute. Got in on in the other room.

Posted by: heather at May 16, 2009 7:08 PM


Great! I just finished my first semester in nursing school with a 4.0. I'm quite proud of myself! Now I'm working on the difficult task of finding a summer job.

Posted by: Erin at May 16, 2009 7:10 PM


Excuse me Vanna:

Let's just keep having a pro-abort/pro-life touchy-feely love fest while another 3,000 babies are killed today, shall we?

Oh, how refreshing. We get to discuss the murder of children while they are being ripped apart, mutilated, thrown away, discarded as crap, flushed, dishonored, etc., etc., etc. It's makes me feel better just to know we're talking, how about you? Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.

Hey, did you watch the final episode of Jay Leno last night? Wasn't that bitter sweet? And Oprah, isn't she divine? I mean she's got us all sucking on the talk show pacifier while the pro-abort industry gets bigger and bigger and bigger and kills more and more and more children....and her boy gains more power to kill innocent children than anyone at any time in history....it's amazing isn't it?

Bystander, have you seen the nice new Planned Parenthood building over on Culver Blvd. today. The sign is just too big and I think they should make it just a little bit smaller, you know...fairness and, just doesn't fit the neighborhood. And the new HHS statistics on the breast cancer/abortion connection. What do you think?

And Devo....don't worry, you don't have to change. God does love you even though you don't believe in Him. He loves everyone. I understand why you are obsessed with child murder.

Oh and Hal......I can't imagine how you feel about killing your first two children. By the way, what are your two new daughter's favorite colors? I bet they like pink.

Give me a break.......we are talking about murder here. The deliberate and legal destruction of innocent children. And you don't want to argue over this? Perhaps Vannah, you really don't believe that killing innocent children is murder? Why do I ask this.....because if the killing of born children was happening as much as unborn children, there would be a literal civil war in this country. I know...."why can't we all just get along"?

Perhaps that's the real answer. We've got a bunch of phony pro-lifers who aren't even willing to raise their voices in horror against the surreal destruction of innocent life that occurs every single day, in every single city in America and around the world.

And what's the drug that keeps us from really doing something about this abortion holocaust? Yep. Talking about it. Discussing it instead of getting mad as hell about it.

I guess we should keep talking our way to Hell.

John Lewandowski.......where are you friend? The so-called pro-lifers on this site are mostly wimps.

Oh and Vannah, did I hurt your feelings? Can we talk?

Oh and baby X, did they hurt your feelings? Can we talk?

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 7:24 PM


Oh, hey, Erin; I see your point. I have no problem with a pro-choicer coming on and discussing, and I hope that no pro-lifer chases them away. But I meant that I was upset by those who come on to post absurd comments galore thinking that they are smarter than the rest of us.

I suppose that I was in a snappy mood, though. I appologize. I had read a depressing and bigoted article on a website that put me in a foul mood- I'm off to read Martin Luther King, Jr. quotes in an attempt to make myself feel more confident about children's rights.

Sorry if I sounded snappy. Forgive me?

Posted by: Vannah at May 16, 2009 7:26 PM


Erin 7:10PM

Incredible. Congratulations.

Posted by: Mary at May 16, 2009 7:27 PM


Vannah, there have been PC posters here who debated with skill and patience. They were chased away by people like Jasper and HisMan. When you encourage those posters, you lose the people who actually are interested in expanding their views, even if they aren't interested in necessarily changing them. Do you see what I'm saying?

Posted by: Erin at May 16, 2009 6:55 PM
___________________

Erin, name one. Oh I know, Cameron and that other abortionist freak doctor.

What amazes me is how high you pro-aborts can get on your horses when we start calling you what you really are.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 7:27 PM


You didn't offend me in the slightest, Vannah!

HisMan- Rae. And prettyinpink. And Doug. And several of your more empathetic PL voices were chased away by the tone of people like you as well. Like MK. Or Valarie. Or Bethany.

Posted by: Erin at May 16, 2009 7:30 PM


Thank you, Mary!!!

Posted by: Erin at May 16, 2009 7:31 PM


The Lord instructs us not to argue with fools, as it makes us one. Leave Devo to his own depraved mind, pray for him but don't argue with him. Pray for Father Norman, our President, and for pro-lifers everywhere. God bless you.

Posted by: Sister C at May 16, 2009 7:33 PM


I thought that Pretty in Pink is pro-life? Was I wrong? I could have sworn that that was where she stood on this by her comments. Maybe I misread her comments. She hasn't been on in awhile, though. Perhaps she's quite busy.

Posted by: Vannah at May 16, 2009 7:36 PM


Vannah, she is. But in most other issues she tends to run fairly socially liberal, and has been beaten down for it by other posters, specifically those like HisMan and Jasper.

Posted by: Erin at May 16, 2009 7:38 PM


I don't think anybody in this entire comment thread has acted as coldly as the pro-life guy who said pro-choice people are morally equivalent to convicted, imprisoned murderers and should also be locked up thusly.

Posted by: Devo at May 16, 2009 6:56 PM
_______________

Gee Devo:

Did I hurt your iddy biddy feelings? I'm sowee.

Well aren't you glad I can't stick a needle in the base of your skull and suck your brains out as they do in a partial birth abortion?

Or worse, pull you apart, limb from limb, yank the head off your neck, the feet from your legs, etc., etc., and then discard you in a trash dumpster and not even give you a going away celebraion (can't call it a funeral...that's too religious).

Or even worser, have someone else do it do you and say it was their right and choice to do it.

Look, let's all grow up about this abortion crap. It's freaking murder, not a civil right. There's a heaven and a hell whether you believe it or not. When you tell me that you don't beleive this I know you're lying becasue God's Word says He's put eternity into each one of our hearts. So cut the crap now!

Tell God your sorry and He will forgive you and then act like the man or woman He created you to be....to promote life and not death. Tell satan to get the hell away and that you are sick of living for that creep.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 7:40 PM


"Look, let's all grow up about this abortion crap. It's freaking murder, not a civil right. There's a heaven and a hell whether you believe it or not. When you tell me that you don't beleive this I know you're lying becasue God's Word says He's put eternity into each one of our hearts. So cut the crap now!"

You're just about the last guy in the world who should be telling anybody to "grow up." And "God's Word" says a lot of things, but I don't put too much stock in fiction. When you're ready to face reality and stop living with your head in the clouds, let me know.

Posted by: Devo at May 16, 2009 7:47 PM


Devo, you are right about one thing:
Supporting a criminal act is not the same as committing it, within the criminal code. You won't be arrested for your support of selling cocaine to eight-year-olds, or of raping teenagers, or of killing babies.
But morally, it is very similar.

HisMan: Do tone it down a little bit. Just because some women on this site are not ladies does not mean that none of us are.

Posted by: YCW at May 16, 2009 7:56 PM


Erin:

What a crock.

I haven't posted on this site in months because I've been too busy doing real pro-life work.

I come back here because the Notre Dame thing's has got me so riled. Know this, that the hypocrisy of guys like Jenkins and Kmiec caused me to leave the RRC and nothing's changed. I mean, are you now pro-life? What about Hal? What about Bystander? What about Reality?

Oh and I chased away Cameron, that pro-abort pseudo-intellectual bully and Dr. Death too? What you wanted those animals to be able to continue to post on this site? That's sick.

What you fail to understand is that a rabidly pro-abort mind is a reprobate mind. It cannot be changed apart from massive repentance and a dose of God's mercy. To receive God's mercy you must realize that you need it. You can't realize that you need God's mercy until you realize that your ass is cooked without it. You can't realize that your ass is cooked until you hear the truth of heaven and hell. If you don't understand what I mean, read the book of Romans or eventually die in ignorance.

The minute someone with balls comes on here and speaks the truth about you pro-abort murderers you all become holier than thou.

Actually I was invited over to Valerie's site by MK. MK realized that speaking to you reprobates was a losing proposition and waste of time. I'm beginning to think so too and Sister C has so eloquently and succinctly summarized.

Frankly, you pro-aborts are not worth my time. You want to keep killing babies go ahead and realize you're going to burn in hell. That's the simple truth of it.

And PIP was never really pro-life. I recognized it and she finally demonstrated it.

So, when it really comes down to it, your reality is of your own making and not the truth. You are an expert at self-deception.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 8:03 PM


YCW:

NO. NO. NO and NO.

When they stop abortion, I'll go away and live the rest of my life in peace.

Until that time, this is WAR!

Lady Pro-Choicer is an oxymoron. Write that down in your little journal thingy.

Oh and this too YCW:

If someone walked into your home and said "we are now legally going to kill one of your children" by order and consent of Barack Obama, I want to know just how lady-like you would be.

I know that my wife would literally rip someone's head off if they tried to hurt one of our children or anyone else's children. And I don't want to tell you what I would do to someone who would touch my kids or your kids.

Again, as a football caoch, let me get you fired up about the game:

Abortion is murder. Killing an unborn child in the womb is no different than killing a five year old. When we finally admit this to ourselves, we will get mad as hell and abortion will change, overnight.

However, if you want to keep talking and meeting and talking some more let me write a note to your kids and tell them how unprotected they are in their own home by a mother who won't do a thing or lift a finger to protect them. Of course this is a rhetorical comment, however, I really, really hope you get the point.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 8:16 PM


And this is really amazing? Has any one noticed?

Not one pro-abort has commented compassionately about the treatment of this elderly priest.

Here's a sampling:

All I can say is those cops are absolute professionals because if I was a police officer and I had to deal with someone this uncooperative and resisting arrest I probably would have gotten out the taser and I wouldn't have been using sillystring to tie him up either, but handcuffs.

Posted by: devo at May 16, 2009 8:50 AM
---------------------------

maybe those officers have different beliefs. Or if they have the same, you would ask them to give up their incomes and careers for this? Would you? Have you?

Posted by: emma at May 16, 2009 11:20 AM
---------------------------------
The Westboro Baptist Church and the KKK also
use(d) civil disobedience. Just because they do (did), it doesn't make their cause right.

Posted by: HDT at May 16, 2009 11:23 AM
-------------------------------

Mary, refer to HDT's post at 1:11 PM.

Fr. Weslin worked with a known anti-abortion radical who was on the FBI's Most Wanted List and is suspected in at least one homicide, among other things.

Posted by: Devo at May 16, 2009 1:56 PM
---------------------------------

It's a bit less "heartbreaking" when you find out the old man is a grifter who provokes arrest (for the 200th time) then takes a dive and plays "oh poor me" doubtless followed by trying to sue the cops for "brutality"

Posted by: Bystander at May 16, 2009 12:38 PM
--------------------------------

It's a bit less "heartbreaking" when you find out the old man is a grifter who provokes arrest (for the 200th time) then takes a dive and plays "oh poor me" doubtless followed by trying to sue the cops for "brutality"

Posted by: Bystander at May 16, 2009 12:38 PM
-----------------------------

Fr. Weslin worked with a known anti-abortion radical who was on the FBI's Most Wanted List and is suspected in at least one homicide, among other things.

Posted by: Devo at May 16, 2009 1:56 PM
----------------------------

Does anyone see a pro-abort pattern here?

You can have a gentle-as-a-dove pro-life priest offer his frail body in protest.....or you can have me come in as a raging bull.

The reaction is the same. You see it's a pro-abort game plan that's born of a pro-death mind set. It's origin is satanic.

And here's it's motto:

"Whenever anyone takes a stand against abortion, we are to demonize them, destroy them, devalue them, cut them down, make them appear as an enemy and threat to everyone. If they are gentle, accuse them of association with dangerous people. If they are vociferous and strong, accuse them of being impolite, ill-mannered and vulgar. But don't let them make you think that abortion is bad, it is not bad, because we are right and they are the wrong and they are the enemy and must be stopped at all costs".

And pro-lifers, you all fall right into the pro-death trap. It is so obvious.

Our methods of dealing with these murderers must change and they must change soon.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 8:40 PM


"Not one pro-abort has commented compassionately about the treatment of this elderly priest."

we can include Erin in that list too..

Posted by: Jasper at May 16, 2009 9:14 PM


Jasper, I think he was treated just fine. He was arrested, that's the extent of the 'brutality' here. The officers were gentle with him. He broke the law, and they arrested him. They never struck or manhandled him. After the events of the past week or so, I can't imagine that he had no clue that arrest was a possibility.

Posted by: Erin at May 16, 2009 9:16 PM


Jasper, I think he was treated just fine. He was arrested, that's the extent of the 'brutality' here. The officers were gentle with him. He broke the law, and they arrested him. They never struck or manhandled him. After the events of the past week or so, I can't imagine that he had no clue that arrest was a possibility.

Posted by: Erin at May 16, 2009 9:16 PM
---------------------------

Erin:

Moral relativism is well, morally relative.

The arrest of this harmless, elderly priest demonstrated the truth at how conflicted, twisted and maniacal the pro-abort mindset is. Thank you.

Similarly the pro-abort reaction to this priest's arrest on this site gave me a chance to show how perverse you pro-aborts all are. Thank you again.

So, the priest broke the "law"? You stand in moral judgment of this priest using "law" as a basis for these actions.

As such, you will then be judged by the same laws. The laws that command - "Thou shalt not murder".

By your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 9:36 PM


I've got to go now guys.

It was great seeing how easy it is to trap these pro-aborts at their own game and demonstrating who they really are. I feel very, very sorry for them.

Exorcism can be an exhausting experience.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 10:21 PM


You're missing the point Erin, the priest should have not been arrested at all. Especially on a Catholic campus.

I'm not talking about the police who arrested him, I'm taking about the traitors at ND who ordered the arrest.

Posted by: Jasper at May 16, 2009 10:30 PM


Sacramento isn't far behind Notre Dame. Three of us prolifers were also treated very ungraciously in front of the Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament during the recent Catholic Lobby Day as we tried to distribute material about Eliminating Abortion Funding from the state budget, only to be called "stupid, idiots, morons" and ordered to "get our crap out of here!" by the Cathedral staff, with the police also being called because we were allegedly "offending people" in the public square and "mis-using church property" with our signs. On the same day, the California Catholic Conference directed over 600 Catholics to lobby for legislation on behalf of three state politicians with 100% pro-abortion voting records, while the Church remained silent on the Sanctity of Life, providing tacit endorsement to the intrinsic evil of abortion.

Seeking healing and reconciliation after such mistreatment, we met with the Cathedral staff representative this past Thursday to explain our purpose and intent. Although this encounter was slightly more peaceful, he once again called one of us stupid, saying we should be grateful he didn't have the police arrest us for trespassing, all the while unconvincingly assuring us that everyone is "sympathetic to our cause and pro-life".

In reality, Prolife Catholics are among the most oppressed and persecuted people of our day, even within our own Church and Catholic institutions.

We pray to the Lord. Have Mercy on us all, when good is called evil, and evil mistaken for good.

Posted by: Wynette in Sacramento at May 16, 2009 11:07 PM


Wynette:

The Lord said this would happen in the last days. That even the elect would be deceived.

Don't be surprised.

Posted by: HisMan at May 17, 2009 12:15 AM


your wright;arresting an elder priest at a catholic university is not right,this is unamerican,is'ent this the same way it started in germany,where someones picked up and no one spoke up ,or came forwared to help,the lack of free speach,the mob like bulling,

Posted by: pickiemagee at May 17, 2009 12:35 AM


pickie:

right on.

Posted by: HisMan at May 17, 2009 12:47 AM


For anyone who would like to know more about Fr. Norman Weslin, see this interview that Fr. Pavone did with him in 2001:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/media/weslin.htm

He is quite an amazing man. For years, for the sake of the unborn, he has been quietly, peacefully and with no violence, getting arrested and spending time in prison. He has been abused in prisons. And he has also been an instrument of grace to prisoners as well. I personally met Fr. Weslin when I worked for Priests for Life and he told me that he uses his prison time like a spiritual retreat and as a time of joining with Christ in His suffering, for the sake of others. He uses it as a special time of prayer and also of ministry to the men behind bars. (If my memory serves, he told me there is nothing like praying while unjustly imprisoned). He sees himself as a priest with a special ministry to be in prison--but not as a chaplain--as a fellow prisoner, suffering with the unjustly accused Jesus, witnessing to the sanctity of life. Fr. Weslin is a widower and a former Army officer, and has children and grandchildren. He is very humble and very courageous. An amazing man.

Posted by: Scott Johnston at May 17, 2009 4:02 AM


Wynette,

what an awful shame.

Posted by: Jasper at May 17, 2009 6:18 AM


HisMan, I am not nor have I ever been pro-choice about killing babies. I am completely, 100% against killing babies in any circumstance.

I would do everything in my power to stop someone from killing my children, born or unborn, including stab them with my bread knife or kick them in the balls.

However, I would not swear or use other vulgar language while doing so. That was all that I asked of you--I very much agree with what you say when you say it in a clean manner.

I am absolutely mad about abortion. It makes me angry and sad and bitter and I long for the day when God will end it.

I do not understand why you are responding to me this way. What do you want me to do? If I swear at our pro-choice-to-crush-little-children's-skulls commenters, will that make me a better person? Will it prevent anyone from getting an abortion?

I stand at ready to do what God will ask of me. Right now that is raising my daughter and gestatiing my second child. It is speaking out against birth control, and providing resources at my church which I recently had confirmed to me have made a difference. I have been recently with other pro-life work of a private nature that I will not discuss.

The reason I am not involved with a crisis pregnancy center is because abortion makes me so mad I think I would have trouble being compassionate. And I don't have a car or a driver's license. Please, though, you tell me what I should be doing. Has God spoken to you and told you that YCW needs to fly to Notre Dame and carry a sign?

Posted by: YCW at May 17, 2009 6:52 AM


Actually I was invited over to Valerie's site by MK. MK realized that speaking to you reprobates was a losing proposition and waste of time.

That's not true. She still speaks to many of "us reprobates."

None of it is a waste of time. Things change every day. People change. Minds change. Lives change. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Posted by: Alexandra at May 17, 2009 7:11 AM


As some of the better comments stated, we pro-lifers are now considered terrorists by the left establishment. This is only the beginning. If we let it go, we will lose not only our second amendment right but the first as well. As far as the police being professional? Most of you are too young to remember the Nuremberg trials. If the police are enforcing an unconstitutional order, they too are guilty. I would like to see some of he arrested protesters bringing charges against the police.

BTW, the comments about other groups gaining their rights by civil disobedience are right. Had they not done so, where would they be today?

The murdering of the unborn must be protested and it must be loud and clear. It must be heard around the world, and it is.

It is hoped enough Notre Dame Alumnus will take action to see this does not happen again.

Posted by: Rick at May 17, 2009 9:17 AM


Don't be afraid or worried or bitter about the people on the left. This isn't about politics; this is about human rights, and they can learn that they do not have to do whatever their liberal neighbor or the Democratic Party says (Republicans: the same). Individuals and equal rights are for everyone regardless of political leaning. They don't have to be the enemy. They can be the ally.

No one needs to say, "The left..." this and that. Lots of liberals support equality and life and liberty for all.

I mean, Jesus was a liberal. And he obviously supported equality and life and liberty for all.

I think that, though most of us aren't liberals, we can support them because they are human beings just like us with hopes and fears and dreams and internal struggles projected outwards. We can get along and speak to them with love and respect; then they'll speak to unborn children with love and respect.

Posted by: Vannah at May 17, 2009 9:33 AM


That's not true. She still speaks to many of "us reprobates."

None of it is a waste of time. Things change every day. People change. Minds change. Lives change. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Posted by: Alexandra at May 17, 2009 7:11 AM

agreed. And really all of us are reprobates to some degree!

Posted by: angel at May 17, 2009 9:41 AM


I mean, Jesus was a liberal. And he obviously supported equality and life and liberty for all.........................

Posted by: Vannah at May 17, 2009 9:33 AM
-------------------------------------

Where in the world does this conclusion come from?

You're certianly not reading the Bible.

Perhpas the Da Vinci code is what you're reading?

Posted by: HisMan at May 17, 2009 10:59 AM


YCW:

You have the most important job in the world.

Being a mommy.

Posted by: HisMan at May 17, 2009 11:02 AM


Scott:

Ha, ha, ha, ha.....

Here's a few of the comments made by paid pro-abort hacks about Father Weslin. Literally, these are hilarious:

"Conservatives were apoplectic about Ayers/Obama but the revelation in this very comment thread about Kopp's connections to Weslin were all but ignored completely until I brought up this double-standard and forced the issue.

Posted by: Devo at May 16, 2009 2:36 PM"
________________________________

"And the ND police may be justifiably suspicious of the company he keeps:
Kopp was on the FBI’s Most Wanted List for over two years before his capture in France in March 2001. He has pleaded not guilty to the New York state charge of second-degree murder. He also has pleaded not guilty to the related charges of violating the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act, which prohibits violence and threats of violence to impede receiving or providing abortion services.

Kopp was present at pivotal episodes in the history of militant anti-abortion activism. He has been arrested in connection with numerous clinic blockades, including a major blockade of the Ladies Center in Pensacola. Fla., in 1986. The center was later the site of the first known murder of an abortion provider, Gunn, by local clinic protestor Michael Griffin. Kopp is also credited with authoring sections of the Army of God manual, a how-to for violence against abortion providers. Kopp also served as the advance man for the Catholic direct-action group Lambs of Christ, headed by the Rev. Norman Weslin. In 1992 Weslin told a reporter: “Unless you understand that this is a colossal war between Jesus Christ and Satan, you don’t understand what we are doing.”


Posted by: HDT at May 16, 2009 1:11 PM"
________________________________

Guilt by association. And trying to companre what Fr. Weslins does to what Bill Ayers did is a complete crack.

This is absolute proof of my conclusion about all the paid pro-death, abortion hacks that comment on this site using talking points. The pattern is obvious and we pro-lifers would do well to understand this:

"Does anyone see a pro-abort pattern here?

You can have a gentle-as-a-dove pro-life priest offer his frail body in protest.....or you can have me come in as a raging bull.

The reaction is the same. You see it's a pro-abort game plan that's born of a pro-death mind set. It's origin is satanic.

And here's it's motto:

"Whenever anyone takes a stand against abortion, we are to demonize them, destroy them, devalue them, cut them down, make them appear as an enemy and threat to everyone. If they are gentle, accuse them of association with dangerous people. If they are vociferous and strong, accuse them of being impolite, ill-mannered and vulgar. But don't let them make you think that abortion is bad, it is not bad, because we are right and they are the wrong and they are the enemy and must be stopped at all costs".

And pro-lifers, you all fall right into the pro-death trap. It is so obvious.

Our methods of dealing with these murderers must change and they must change soon.

Posted by: HisMan at May 16, 2009 8:40 PM"

Posted by: HisMan at May 17, 2009 11:15 AM


"I mean, Jesus was a liberal. And he obviously supported equality and life and liberty for all.....

Posted by: Vannah at May 17, 2009 9:33 AM"
----------------------------

This comment really upset me so I sat down and analyzed it.

Liberals are pro-abortion, Jesus was pro-life.

Jesus said there was just one way to heaven. I think most Liberals do not believe this.

While Jesus was compassionate to the poor and needy, he had a strong work ethic and would not agree to take money from one person who worked and give it to someone who could work but refused to....and this to promote his own agenda.

Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law not to eliminate it.

Every single one of Jesus' apostles were men. While I don't think that Jesus thought that men were better than woman, He did define specific roles, i.e., the family; Husband the head and responsible to Christ, the wife submitted to a godly husband, the children submitted to obey their parents. Feminism and Liberalism rejects these Biblical principals vehemently.

It's not that Jesus was a Liberal or a Conservative it's more that Conservatives more closely follow Jesus than Liberal do.

So Vannah, your statement is completely false that Jesus was a Liberal. In fact, he was not a Conservative either.

However, if you really take the time to study who Jesus was, and then follow Him, you will more likely be a Conservative than a Liberal.

Posted by: HisMan at May 17, 2009 11:48 AM


Wow, Devo, That would make you quite the hero wouldn't it? Tasering an old man and using real handcuffs.

Glad you're NOT a police officer!

Posted by: Elena at May 17, 2009 2:39 PM


People need to wake up from all this CULT mentality.

BTW... I find it funny that you are against abortion, but the BIBLE allows all kinds of MURDER:

Leviticus 20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.

Exodus 35:2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

Ezekiel 20:25-26 I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.

Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men.
2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Leviticus 25:44-45 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

Posted by: Jake at May 18, 2009 8:20 AM


Hi Jake.

It's not terribly impressive to simply cut and paste from evilbible.com or wherever you got those quotes from. If you'd like, I'd be happy to exegete those passages one at a time, but to simply throw a whole bunch of supposedly "murder ordering" quotes at us (while not even all of them are even about killing) is just beyond reasonable.

Furthermore, suppose you are completely correct and that the bible condones murder in some cases. What have you shown? At best, this shows that the bible is not infallible. However, it does nothing to undermine the historical resurrection of Jesus nor his claims to divinity. Christianity would still be true, but we would just have to give up the bible being infallible.

Even then, your argument does NOTHING to address any argument that pro-lifers put forth from science and philosophy as to the humanity and personhood of the unborn. There are many atheist and skeptic pro-lifers on this blog, not to mention a whole website devoted to skeptic pro-lifers http://godlessprolifers.org/home.html . Your above quotes are completely worthless to them.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 18, 2009 8:42 AM


I simply put them there b/c it's hilarious that many members of the Jesus cults believe the Bible to be the actual 'word of god'.

Now, if you want some INTELLIGENT quotes on religion, here are a few that I like:

“Faith is a state of openness or trust. To have faith is to trust yourself to the water. When you swim you don't grab hold of the water, because if you do you will sink and drown. Instead you relax, and float. And the attitude of faith is the very opposite of clinging to belief, of holding on. In other words, a person who is fanatic in matters of religion, and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God and the universe, becomes a person who has no faith at all. Instead they are holding tight. But the attitude of faith is to let go, and become open to truth, whatever it might turn out to be.”

- Alan Watts


“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”

- Seneca


“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

- Gandhi


“Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.”

- Blaise Pascal


“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

- Douglas Adams


“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

- Steven Weinberg

Posted by: Jake at May 18, 2009 1:18 PM


Jake,

What are we supposed to say to those quotes? Do you think one of them makes a really good point? I think some do, I think some are soundbites with little substance behind them. What is a single really good point that a Christian needs to hear in those quotes?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 18, 2009 2:33 PM


I think this is horrible!! He was standing up for what he believes in and isn't that what our country was founded on?!?!?!?! Isn't the United States of America suppossed to allow freedom of speech and many other freedoms?? And while thinking of many other freedoms... WHAT ABOUT THE FREEDOM TO LIFE??? I say it is NOT the baby's fault! so why punish it by MURDERING it??!?!!!?? I totally and COMPLETELY agree with Father Weslin!

God Bless him and ALL Pro-life people!
I also pray for all those that think murder (aka abortion) is ok! I pray for a conversion of their hearts!

Jesus Christ Be with you always,
ket

Posted by: ket at May 18, 2009 6:20 PM


Giving a woman rights over her own reproductive system = MURDER

but..

Killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens = HEROES

I get it now! Thanks!

Praise Jesus!

Posted by: Jake at May 18, 2009 6:34 PM


>> What is a single really good point that a Christian needs to hear in those quotes?


This:

“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

- Gandhi

Christianity has become fear disguised as love, and little more. It's the exact opposite of what Jesus was supposedly about.
It's become a cult, full of idolatry. People who pretend the Bible is the 'word of god' are being idolatrous. Same goes for worshiping a crucifix or clergy member.

God = love. And he/she/it is EVERYWHERE. No person is holier than anyone else. The Pope is a fraud. Televangelists are frauds. Anyone who preaches fear instead of love is a fraud.


You want to see a good Christian?

Look to people like George Munoz - http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/03/19/cnnheroes.jorge.munoz/index.html?iref=newssearch

or Leonard Knight - http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/17476

Posted by: Jake at May 18, 2009 6:50 PM


I don't see how u can say "The pope is a fraud" when he is out trying to make peace and what are you doing?? just curious...

o and for all of you that are pro-choice..
if you were in the womb of your mother right now.. would u still be pro-choice? even when ur mother said its my right ill do what i want. and decides to kiil u?? will u STILL be pro-choice?? think about it... pray about it... try to remember that the baby did absolutly nothing wrong!

Posted by: ket at May 18, 2009 6:58 PM


Jake,

You're making a lot of assertions, but I don't see any reason to believe any of them. You haven't offered any evidence. It's just a bunch of claims.

"No person is holier than anyone else."

How do you know this? You come on here attacking us, but you haven't offered any reasons why we should hold to what you are saying.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 18, 2009 8:06 PM



“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

- Gandhi

Jake,
I'm curious about the context of this quote. Who was Gandhi talking to?

Posted by: Janet at May 18, 2009 9:05 PM


Jake, you (and many others on the internet) didn't include the last part of Gandhi's quote.

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. The materialism of affluent Christian countries appears to contradict the claims of Jesus Christ that says it's not possible to worship both Mammon and God at the same time." -- Mahatma Gandhi[16]

(Mammon = greed and materialism)

So Gandhi is not condemning Christianity per se, but the materialism of the Christian world. I haven't found out to whom he was addressing his comment.

Posted by: Janet at May 18, 2009 10:39 PM


Ahh.. I see they're deleting my posts.

Figures.

Just like when religion burns books or bans science.
(or murders scientists)

Anywho..

check out these 2 resources to see where western religion came from:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331&ei=eeoSSr6rL4q4rgLz8azrDQ&q=zeitgeist&hl=en


http://www.pharmacratic-inquisition.com

Posted by: Jake at May 19, 2009 12:21 PM


"Ahh.. I see they're deleting my posts."

What posts? Unless you've been posting under a different name than Jake, I don't think any of your posts have been deleted... unless you're the one who has been posting as "friend"...

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 19, 2009 12:31 PM


Jake, I haven't seen any of your posts deleted. Was there a specific one missing?

Unless you posted something extremely offensive or posted anonymously, that doesn't happen around here.

You seem to be very anti-religion, Jake. Perhaps it would interest you to know that not everyone on this blog claims a religion. We have pro-life atheists who post here as well.

Posted by: Kel at May 19, 2009 12:34 PM


Jake,

I simply do not have the time to sit down and analyze and refute line by line a 2 hour video. I'm not even sure what in the world the second link is supposed to be.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 19, 2009 12:38 PM


You don't need to analyze it.
Just watch it & learn something.

I don't necessarily agree with each & every point made in the film, but the overall thesis is 100% correct.

Posted by: Jake at May 19, 2009 1:21 PM


I cannot view the video on this site, but I saw a smidge of it on national television, and I can tell you, no matter what, the arrest of pro-lifers on a Catholic university is a disgrace. I was embarassed to see that, but I already know that the forces of the pro-choice people, and especially the Obama regime, are rejoicing at the division that is taking place in the Church here in this country. It plays right into their agenda of divide and conquer, but I look at it another way: the wheat is being separated from the chaff. The fruit of such actions will be more than apparent in the future, when we have a stronger and more faithful, perhaps smaller church in the US. But all the more stronger in faith, and works. Stand firm, and stand with those good shepherds that are true leaders of the Faith, and of the faithful of the Church.

Posted by: Life Lady at May 19, 2009 3:32 PM


Just for the record... I am absolutely against abortion.
I think it's disgusting that people are irresponsible & then use it as a form of afterthought birth-control.

However, I still support a woman's right to choose.
Especially in cases where her health may be in danger, or in cases of rape.

I also find it hilarious that so many "pro-life" folks also support the United States' war of terror.

Posted by: Jake at May 19, 2009 6:58 PM


Devo,
Based on world's criteria," Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for infractions of the law ". But based on Divine law, where most human laws are based upon " Ignorance of the law will be dealt with compassion and understanding ". There lies the big difference of your ignorance and indifference to Fr. Weslin's sorry & deplorable condition.You're like the hypocrite referred to in the New Testament. Laws are for evil people, but you won't have a need for it if you could only compassionate.Fr. Weslin hasn't done anything wrong, he was just defending teachings of the Church.And you what are you defending? Peace and Order? There would be peace if people like Fr.Jenkins would be allowed to teach you how to live moral lives based on the teachings and traditions of the Church of which Jesus Christ founded.The Church founded by the son of GOD who created you and me, and the people of your great nation.My prayers are for you, may you see the light, brother...

Posted by: Philip De Guzman at May 20, 2009 9:00 PM


WHEN I WATCHED THE YOU TUBE ON THE ARREST OF A DEFENDER OF ABORTION I THOUGHT OF THE GESTAPO IN GERMANY HAULING THE JEWS TO CONCENTRATION CAMPS.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 20, 2009 11:47 PM


^ And the over-exaggeration award of the day goes to . . .


Posted by: Jake at May 20, 2009 11:55 PM


Hi People, I found this on another site:

Pope John XXIII wrote in his encyclical letter Pacem in Terris, AN UNJUST LAW IS NO LAW AT ALL -and Pope John Paul II echoed that many times and said we in fact have an obligation not to obey unjust laws.

God bless everyone with what ever we need!
All through Mary.

Posted by: jo at May 21, 2009 1:30 AM


Hi People, I found this on another site:

Pope John XXIII wrote in his encyclical letter Pacem in Terris, AN UNJUST LAW IS NO LAW AT ALL -and Pope John Paul II echoed that many times and said we in fact have an obligation not to obey unjust laws.

God bless everyone with what ever we need!
All through Mary.

Posted by: jo at May 21, 2009 1:31 AM


^ yyyyyyea...not so sure that's how it works. =P

We live in a society that has laws. And just because your cult of fairy tales disagrees with said laws, doesn't mean you can break them.
If you really want to live in a society ruled by fairy tales, perhaps you should move to the Middle East.

Besides, the church has consistently been wrong about everything throughout history, and their ignorance continues to the present day.

"The Earth is flat."
"The planets all revolve around the Earth."
"Telescopes are blasphemy."
"Evolution isn't real."
etc..

Use your brain for a change, rather than just your brainwashing.


Peace.

Posted by: Jake at May 21, 2009 10:16 AM


P.S. How old is the Earth again?

A few thousand years, according to the Bible?


LOL.


Come on now. Time to grow up already. ;)

Let's start acting like the intelligent people God created. Not the brainwashed fools that man's fear-based religions manipulated.

THINK about it.

Posted by: Jake at May 21, 2009 10:19 AM


I would love, LOVE some documentation on when the Church taught the earth was flat. Also, you need to understand that all scientists thought the sun revolved around the Earth when the Church did as well. Please also provide official documents deeming telescopes "blasphemy." I'd also love to see some documents from the Catholic Church claiming evolution isn't real.

The fact is, Jake, you have been brainwashed. You are simply parroting all the same old tired objections that have no basis in reality that people spew against the Church. You will never never ever never find any such documents of the Catholic Church teaching all that silliness you said they did. Seriously, look into it for yourself. Don't take the words of the "new atheists" like Dawkins and hitchens who engage in junk philosophy and are a disgrace to thinking atheists.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 21, 2009 10:27 AM


Are you kidding me?
For YEARS heliocentricism was banned by the church. Galileo was imprisoned for it, and other scientists were as well.

And TO THIS VERY DAY many of the Jesus-worshippers still maintain that the Bible is a scientific source & they use it to say that the Earth is only a few thousand years old.
As a scientist, statements like that make me LOL.

By the way, Liberty (air quotes) "university" has a dinosaur skeleton in their museum & it's labeled as being only a few thousand years old.

True story!

Posted by: Jake at May 21, 2009 4:38 PM


Not what I asked, Jake. Find me where the Church taught the earth was flat. Find me where the Church taught the telescope was heresy.

Sure, Galileo was imprisoned. Not arguing that. Are you arguing that it was NOT the scientific consensus that we lived in a geocentric universe back before Galileo's time? Heliocentric was also "banned" by scientists back in the day.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 21, 2009 4:49 PM


Oh, and don't forget to show me where the Catholic Church taught that evolution was false.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 21, 2009 4:51 PM


They STILL teach that evolution is false.

Then they fabricated "intelligent design" as a re-branding of creationism.

Here's a great show on it, free to watch online:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html

12 chapters, a bit long, but very well done.

Posted by: Jake at May 21, 2009 5:12 PM


False. The Catholic Church has NEVER taught ID, nor has it ever taught that Darwinian evolution is wrong. Show me a document from teh Catholic Church teaching ID or saying Darwinian evolution is false. You can not do it because it does not exist. In fact, from the very first time the Church spoke on evolution in Pius XII encyclical Humanae Generis he wrote

""The Church does not forbid that...research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter."

PLease stop listening to TV specials and internet documentaries and start using critical thinking to assess these claims. You STILL have not shown me where the Church taught that the earth was flat, where she condemned the telescope as heresy, nor where she taught evolution to be false. You need to show me official Vatican documents.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 21, 2009 6:16 PM


OK..perhaps you are misinterpreting what I mean by "the church". I don't use that term to mean only the Catholic Church, but the whole lot of Jesus-worshippers in general.

Study the origins & history of these institutions, and you will see little more than greed, manipulation, social control, and outright lies.

Jesus, whether or not he ever existed, seemed like a pretty decent chap from most of the texts. Especially a lot of the lesser known ones such as the Essene Gospels.
But the church in general has become almost the exact opposite of Jesus. I read & listen to sermons from all over the place, and it's sad how much of a downright cult it has become. Fear being preached, disguised as love.
And the so-called religious 'leaders' are even worse.

But they did a damn good job at the whole thing. For members to even question the religion/cult.. it's considered a sin.
And, of course, the whole story of the ever-loving god.. who is all-powerful... but needs you to worship & believe in him... or else he'll send you off to eternal torture.. is just plain asinine.
And my all time favorite... a Jesus fish on a car... alongside a Marines sticker.
Because, you know, OF COURSE Jesus would want his beloved good Christians to murder hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens... so that oil companies, Blackwater & Haliburton can make billions.

Posted by: Jake at May 21, 2009 6:54 PM


Look at this quote from evolutionary biologist Ken Miller from Chapter 9

"I've never made a secret of the fact that I'm a Roman Catholic, and a long tradition of scholarship in the Catholic Church has argued that truth is one, that science and religion should ultimately be in harmony. But that doesn't make faith a scientific proposition. I think, as many religious people do, that faith and reason are both gifts from God. And if God is real, then faith and reason should complement each other rather than being in conflict."

I've read his book "Finding Darwin's God" and Miller nails it. He knows that there is absoultely no conflict between the Catholic faith and Darwinian evolution.

In fact, a quick search/find in the transcript reveals that that is the ONLY time the Catholic church is mentioned in the entire documentary. So I requested that you show me where the Catholic Church teaches ID and where it demonizes Darwinian evolution, and you sent me to a program which mentions the Catholic Church ONCE and it was in the context of how the Catholic faith and Darwinian evolution co-exist.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 21, 2009 6:58 PM


I'm a Protestant, and I make no secret of the fact that I believe the earth to be only thousands of years old, not millions. If Jake want to demonize any church, let him to try to demonize my church. It stands in the Reformed and Presbyterian stream of Protestant Christianity. There have been Presbyterians in the past who have believed in aspects of evolutionism, but more and more the orthodox among them are coming around to full-fledged creationism.

I don't care much that Jake ridicules me; I know in the end that Jake accepts his evolutionism by faith just as much as (or more than) I accept my creationism by faith. It's interesting that the history of science resembles the history of the world in that explosive changes have occurred in both, changes which uniformitarianism cannot account for (at least not with respect to world history).

And it's instructive that the natural sciences were cradled by Christianity, i.e. it was largely the Christian world-and-life view that brought them into existence.

But Bobby correctly leads this discussion as we are in this post talking about the Roman Catholic Church. I am a Protestant.

Posted by: Jon at May 22, 2009 9:45 AM


>>> I make no secret of the fact that I believe the earth to be only thousands of years old, not millions.


Well, unfortunately you are 100% wrong in that belief.

But I guess if you're willing to believe in burning bushes, people walking on water, and Noah's ark... you'll probably believe anything. ; )

Posted by: Jake at May 22, 2009 9:54 AM


Very good, Jon. As you know, the Catholic Church has not spoken on these kinds of questions and it allows a variety of opinions (under some guidelines, of course) about the questions of the biological origin of man, and since I don't know much about the science, I personally do not have a belief about it. I do think the earth is older than 6000 years, but can not back that up, and respect those who hold to a young earth.

Unfortunately I'm having a hard time pinning Jake down on exactly what is so anti-intellectual and anti-thinking about Christianity.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 22, 2009 9:58 AM


"But I guess if you're willing to believe in burning bushes, people walking on water, and Noah's ark"

Thinking that belief in these things is irrational is only a result of an a priori anti-supernatural bias. Without having an anti-supernatural bias, how do you show that one is not epistemically justified in holding to a belief in miracles?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 22, 2009 10:03 AM


This comment is an aside. I'm previewing it now and see that the discussion between Bobby and Jake has continued.

Jake said, "[M]y all time favorite... a Jesus fish on a car... alongside a Marines sticker."

I like it. There's no inconsistency. One explanation of its origin is Matthew 12:40. Mariners have often considered Jonah unlucky: a Jonah is a "person who brings, or is sacrificed lest he bring, ill luck" (The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English of 1964). However, for the Christian, Jonah is a sign of the Resurrection. Seems fitting to me that a Christian Marine, especially, would proudly display the symbol.

I'm sure your problem with it has to do with the militant nature of a Marine. I'm not sure why you think that all Christians must be pacifists. Very few are, at least not in history. The civil government's main responsibility is to exercise justice to protect its citizens against violence both within and outside of its borders. As God's minister (Rom. 13), it is equipped with the sword, an instrument of death, so that it may justly punish the evil-doer. In the Creation (Genesis 1-2), God made man in His own image. In the Re-creation, after the Flood (Genesis 9), God reaffirmed the special value of human life, specifically calling for capital punishment for murderers.

The American soldiers in Iraq are not murderers. The terrorists are murderers. Proceeds from the sale of oil in Iraq go to Iraq, to the best of my knowledge. The oil companies have not made a "killing," but I would not fault them if they did. The spoils of war belong to the victor. Hell is a destitute place.

Posted by: Jon at May 22, 2009 10:20 AM


I'm sorry... if you believe in the Noah's ark story (or the epic of gilgamesh, where the story originally came from, or the countless other ones that existed far before Christianity)... you're simply not an intelligent person, plain and simple.

Just think about it. There are MILLIONS of species. And they all need different environments. And if they were all together, they would eat each other. And many, even today, have difficulty being sexed male vs. female.
Even w/ all of our technology... we couldn't build a floating zoo w/ one male & one female of EVERY species.
But... some dude in ancient times did?
Come on!
We all love fairy tales, but when people actually believe them... it's pretty scary.

As for the U.S. troops... they ARE terrorists, by the very definition of terrorism.
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

BTW..
civilian deaths on 9/11: under 3000
civilian deaths in Iraq: over 600,000

so tell me... who are the 'terrorists' again?


Posted by: Jake at May 22, 2009 11:16 AM


Again Jake, your anti-supernatural bias is showing. Every argument you give would be absolutely no problem for an all-powerful all-knowing being to accomplish. Could not such a being move all the animal's wills to begin walking towards the ark? Could not the all-powerful being make it so that none of the animals had an inclination to eat each other and were all calm, cooperative, and sedated? Could not an all-powerful God temporarily suspend certain animals need to be in a certain environment and allow it to survive outside of said environment?

I personally don't know if Noah's ark is meant to be taken as a literal historical retelling of events that actually happened in exactly the way that we think of it today (bible is infallible and inerrant, just not sure WHAT it wants to teach sometimes), but if it is, I don't see why it couldn't be true based on having an all-powerful being behind your cause.

"if you believe in the Noah's ark story (or the epic of gilgamesh, where the story originally came from, or the countless other ones that existed far before Christianity)... you're simply not an intelligent person, plain and simple."

Again, you need to provide a syllogism as to why it is not intelligent to believe in miracles. You would either have to show that 1) it is irrational to believe in God, or 2) that God somehow could not perform such a miracle, or 3) that there is good reason to believe he never gets involved in human affairs. And not only do you have to show that there are good reasons to hold to one of the three possibilities, but you since you claimed that belief in Noah's ark is not intelligent, you have to show why it is not intelligent to hold to the negation of ALL THREE of the above possibilities. This is a tremendous burden of proof you have put on yourself.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 22, 2009 11:27 AM


"Magic God" can obviously be an excuse for ANY kind of illogical or irrational belief.

But perhaps it's time to leave the imaginary friends & fairy tales behind for a bit & live in the HERE & NOW.


Posted by: Jake at May 22, 2009 11:30 AM


""Magic God" can obviously be an excuse for ANY kind of illogical or irrational belief."

This is question-begging. You are calling such a belief irrational which assumes what you're trying to prove.

Refute magic God then.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 22, 2009 11:40 AM


I don't need to refute anything.

I'm intelligent enough to see simple brainwashing when I see it.

I can tell you that a Magic God came to me just 5 minutes ago & said that if you don't give me all your $$, you're going to suffer tremendously in the afterlife.
Are you going to send me all your $$?
No, because you're not that dumb.
But when they brainwash you from birth... it seems to work a lot better.

Posted by: Jake at May 22, 2009 11:45 AM


"I'm intelligent enough to see simple brainwashing when I see it. I can tell you that a Magic God came to me just 5 minutes ago & said that if you don't give me all your $$, you're going to suffer tremendously in the afterlife. Are you going to send me all your $$? No, because you're not that dumb."

I see no good reason to believe this claim. That is the difference. In light of the absence of a defeater, this claim is void.

"But when they brainwash you from birth... it seems to work a lot better. "

This commits the genetic fallacy. You are essentially saying that the only reason I believe in God is because I was taught this from birth. But how does that really refute the existence of an all-powerful being? It does nothing to address the positive arguments for God's existence; it only asserts that because you know where a belief originated, you have reason to believe that it is false. But this is clearly not true. For suppose I tell you that the only reason that you believe that he live in a heliocentric universe is because you were taught that as a child and were born in 20th century America. Had you been born in 13th century Italy, you would be a geocentric. Is heliocentrism therefore incorrect? Of course not. Seeing as how you are a scientist, you might tell me that you have studied experiments or at least have good reason to believe in the results of the scientific community today. But it would be a logical fallacy to conclude that heliocentric is not correct just because you were told that from birth. So this is some very faulty reasoning. The evidence itself needs to be addressed.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 22, 2009 11:52 AM


The difference is... when science is wrong, it learns from it.

When religion is wrong, it fabricates all sorts of illogical nonsense to try & make it seem right after all.

Religion is nothing more than creating god in man's image.

Posted by: Jake at May 22, 2009 12:08 PM


Really examine what you believe:

An all-powerful and all-loving God created me.
But, because I don't believe the stories that people wrote about him & because I don't worship him & his son... he will be forced to send me hell to be tortured for all eternity.

Seems sensible, no?

(lol)

Posted by: Jake at May 22, 2009 12:20 PM


"Really examine what you believe"

Yes, I have for a very, very long time.

"An all-powerful and all-loving God created me. But, because I don't believe the stories that people wrote about him & because I don't worship him & his son... he will be forced to send me hell to be tortured for all eternity. Seems sensible, no? (lol)"

This is completely incorrect. It isn't simply about belief or some intellectual ascent, it is about having a personal relationship with him. Simply believing that the bible is true and Jesus was God's son is not good enough. Nice straw man, though.

"he will be forced to send me hell to be tortured for all eternity"

This too is wrong. God does not send people to hell; people send themselves to hell because they do not want to be with him. It is up to the individual. Hell is also not a place of gleeful torture but a place of separation from God, exactly where the one who goes to hell wishes to be, totally separated from God. Since the very nature of man is to be in loving union with God, being away from that which we were created for is the most horrible fate we could suffer.

Finally, suppose your argument is 100% correct and not horribly inaccurate and logically flawed. At best, all this shows is that the Christian concept of hell is not right. It does nothing to prove that God doesn't exist, it does nothing to even undermine the fact that Jesus is God's son. Christianity could still go on more or less the exact same way as it has. At the very, very best it shows that the Christian concept of hell is not entirely correct.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 22, 2009 12:28 PM


Fine, let me play your role for a second...

show me ONE iota of proof that God or Jesus ARE real.

And please don't quote anything written by man, or say that they must be real b/c the universe exists.

Posted by: Jake at May 22, 2009 12:34 PM


Oh goody, I thought you'd never ask! I have to go teach now, but I"ll get to this this weekend...

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 22, 2009 12:39 PM


And, for the record, I'm not an atheist.

But I also think that spiritual experiences are personal, and anyone or any institution that claims to have the monopoly on them - especially when they use fear to achieve their power - are the real blasphemers.

The best examples are the televangelists, but most clergy members are guilty of it to one degree or another.

Posted by: Jake at May 22, 2009 12:49 PM


There are many arguments for God's existence. I will focus here only on one. Note that this is only argument about the existence of a supreme being and that this does not address any particular religion's truth claims; specifically, it says nothing about the truth or falsity of Christianity and the claims of Jesus of Nazareth.

I will give the syllogism below and discuss the two premises briefly afterward.

1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2) The universe began to exist.
Therefore, the universe has a cause.

We define God as that cause. Observe that once we accept the two premises, the conclusion follows inescapably, so the soundness of the argument rests on the validity of the two premises. I will look at the second premise first because I will need to say less about it; for you, as a scientist, are probably familiar with big bang cosmology and the current big bang model. This asserts that the universe began as an initial singularity which began to expand at a very rapid rate. The universe, as well as all of space, time, and matter came into begin with the initial singularity. Without the initial singularity (notice, I can't say "before" because there was no "before") there was nothing; at least, nothing scientifically observable. Hence, whatever caused the big bang is outside of space, time, and matter. As scientists, we know that this is the generally accepted model of the origin of the cosmos.

Now onto the first premise. This is a first principle of metaphysics; that all effects have a cause. In fact, all of science is based on this principle. When we study a phenomenon, we ask "what caused this? how did this come to be?" So postulating that everything that begins to exists has a cause is completely consistent and indeed a cornerstone of all of science.

The alternative is that the universe popped into being, uncaused out of nothing. In other words, we have non-being causing being. But how can nothing cause something? For by definition, "nothing' is that which has no properties- in particular, it lacks the property of causality. It also lacks potential. So it is a metaphysical absurdity to think that something can come from nothing. Let us take this further. I"m sitting here at my computer, alone in my room. But I have no fear that all of a sudden an elephant is going to pop into being in my room and eat my computer. And if something can come from nothing, I would be justified in being concerned that an elephant would pop into being in my room. Or a tiger, or a gun, or anything. But this is simply silly to worry about. We have no evidence of any such thing happening. Never in this world do we postulate that something came from nothing.

So when you consider the reasons for holding to these two premises, it seems we have in overwhelming amount of evidence to being that each premise is very plausible. Hence, it is very plausible that the cause of the universe, which we are calling God, exists.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 22, 2009 5:47 PM


The universe is infinite, therefore it doesn't have a beginning or an end.

I'm a scientist, but I think the "big bang" is simply the religion of science.

The problem is, we're using our finite thought processes to try to think about something that's infinite. This makes us feel uneasy, so we make up stories to explain it.

Where's the 'beginning' of a circle?
There is none.
Same think with the universe.

Posted by: Jake at May 26, 2009 3:37 PM


God Bless Fr. Weslin. He is a true hero. Fr. Jenkins is the real issue. He and the trustees need to go. These characters have no respect for the church, its teachings, or the American Catholic Bishops. Bishop D'Arcy has a duty to pursue this to uphold the integrity of Notre Dame as a Catholic institution. Correct me if I'm wrong but ND belongs to the Catholic Church not the public like a state university. Is D'Arcy hiding under his desk? This is an outrage.

Posted by: Vance at May 26, 2009 6:27 PM


to devo
re taser use

Oh. You are one of those killers with license to kill. I get it. That's why my trust in police is so low. You obviously got enough brains to use a taser but not enough for any self reflection.

Posted by: Gabe at June 1, 2009 9:55 AM