Weekend question

UPDATE, 5/10, 6:30a: While I disagree with Terry/Keyes' tactics, they have already borne short-term fruit, forcing Notre Dame to pay for extra police coverage during President Abortion's visit next weekend. From the Associated Press, last night:

The University of Notre Dame has agreed to pay some of the costs that local police will face for helping provide security during next weekend's visit by President Barack Obama.

keyes arrested.jpg

Notre Dame spokesman Dennis Brown said the school will pay the South Bend and St. Joseph Co. departments for services beyond those required by the Secret Service.

Anti-abortion activists are planning protests when Obama visits next Sunday to speak at the commencement ceremony.

On Friday, former Republican presidential candidate Alan Keyes and 21 others were arrested when they marched on the university to protest the commencement speech.

About 75 protesters gathered Friday outside the school's front gate to pray and to listen to Keyes speak before about 30 of them walked onto campus.

Police say the 22 arrested were handcuffed and taken to the St. Joseph County Jail on trespassing charges.

This is so ironic: a Catholic university arresting peaceful pro-life protesters while paying for extra security to honor the most pro-abortion president in history.

Donations by pro-life ND alum comprise some part of this Obama-enabling.

[Photo attribution: WorldNetDaily]
_______________

weekend question.jpgThis is the last time I'm going to mention Alan Keyes or Randall Terry as they relate to the Notre Dame scandal unless they do something really outrageous.

Both have done great good for the pro-life movement in the past. Keyes is an amazing orator for the sanctity of life. Terry was one of the founders of pro-life activism....

IMO Keyes lost his standing during his US Senate race against Barack Obama. I was there. He alienated friend, foe, and all who previously had no opinion. Somewhere throughout those months he became a mockery of himself. IMO Terry lost his standing for his personal indiscretions, for which he did not repent.

But many people respect both, and that's what I want to examine in this weekend's question:

Violence aside, where is the line drawn in pro-life activism?

keyes spongebob.jpgI was horrified when viewing the videotape of Keyes' arrest, along with 21 others for trespassing on Notre Dame property yesterday, according to ChicagoBreaking
News.com
, to see a bloody Spongebob Squarepants in the stroller he pushed. Oh. My. Goodness. What in the world was he thinking?

It was bad enough that the group caricatured abortion with doll babies and fake blood. As commenter Milehimama wrote, "Can you imagine if someone piled up mannequins and ketchup to protest Holocaust deniers? Bad form."

I cringed when I saw Keyes and his stroller. He took bad form to a new level.

keyes bloody man.jpgAlso note the guy with the blood-stained shirt walking behind Keyes. Bad form as well. He ended up sitting next to Keyes in the arrest van. Oy.

So please tell me what I am missing. How do stunts and stuntpersons like this help our cause? And where is the line drawn? Dr. Martin Luther King was arrested when he took a stand for civil rights. What is the difference here, if there is any?


Comments:

I don't think the blood is necessary by any means.. It was in very poor taste and I don't know what it is suppose to make us look like. Especially since he could have just stepped on campus to get arrested.

And I agree with you completely about his Senate run. That's when things turned sour for me as well.

Posted by: Greg at May 9, 2009 7:27 AM


why did they get arrested? I'm confused.

Posted by: Jasper at May 9, 2009 7:28 AM


Maybe not the best idea, but I still know their intentions were good. A sign would have been just fine. I also don't know why they were arrested. Cleveland cops are much cooler!

Posted by: heather at May 9, 2009 7:34 AM


To be fair, remember when the college student submitted her "Abortion project" all in the name of art.

Posted by: heather at May 9, 2009 7:35 AM


Can prochoicers and prolifers agree then that this is in poor taste? That this is bad form?

When I gather with Silent No More MN and hold the signs I Regret My Abortion, it is solemn, it is serious, we take a stand.

That little parade is a freak show.

Posted by: Carla at May 9, 2009 7:38 AM


That little parade is a freak show.

Posted by: Carla at May 9, 2009 7:38 AM------------------ I agree.

Posted by: heather at May 9, 2009 7:43 AM


Jasper - good point. I'll clarify in post. He trespassed on ND property yesterday.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at May 9, 2009 7:45 AM


What would happen if one couragous Catholic bishop pushed one of these strollers!

I am sick and tired of pro-life infighting. Quit complaining about how the other pro-lifer is fighting to save the unborn and go do something! Anything!

I challenge every prolifer not happy with Keyes' tactics to do 5 things, any 5 things, to stop Obama at Notre Dame.

1) You can Contact Fr. Jenkins: Call him at 574.631.5000

2) fax him at 574.631.2770

3) write a personal email president@nd.edu

4) or mail your letter to 400 Main Building, Notre Dame, IN 46556

5) Contribute to a billboard

6) sign an online petition

7) go to Notre Dame yourself and show us how a real protest should be done

8) pray, (but pray like everything depends on God and WORK like everything depends on you)

9) stop wasting your energy complaining about other hard working prolifers with whom you may disagree, and get to wrok yourself...


Posted by: Diago at May 9, 2009 7:45 AM


Diago, I do. I sidewalk counsel at abortion clinics. Actually, I'm on my way out the door now.

Posted by: heather at May 9, 2009 7:50 AM


Diago, this was a tough call. But the fringe has to be repudiated. And you must admit this was fringe activity. Note I said this was the last time I'm going to mention those 2, because I don't like dwelling on our probs. The focus must remain on abortion and pro-aborts. I appreciate your activism suggestions.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at May 9, 2009 7:54 AM


Hey, 20 years ago, people said when gay rights activists did stunts like this, or when animal rights activists did stunts like this, they were being "over the top" and so forth.

Yet look at them now. More Americans think it's immoral to wear fur than think it's immoral to get a divorce or an abortion. Most Americans favor "gay rights" to some extent.

Like it or not, these are the kinds of tactics that work to influence public opinion.

Posted by: JC at May 9, 2009 8:00 AM


Diego,

AMEN!!!

Posted by: Leslie Hanks at May 9, 2009 8:04 AM


Let me get this straight. The people who carry around 6' x 8' posters of mutilated fetuses, blown up 50x, are criticizing the people who push fake "dead babies" in strollers, for "bad taste"!!!!!! You can't make this up!

Enjoy your publicity stunt/circus, I am sure everyone who sees this freak show will be duly impressed. Keep it classy, folks.

Posted by: Bystander at May 9, 2009 8:11 AM


Perhaps the protestors believe, as I do, that most
people are persuaded that abortion is all about a
"medical procedure."

The focus being on the "procedure," so that there is very
little focus on the victim.

Little kids and former little kids love Sponge Bob. Bloody
Sponge Bob makes them think. Why is he bloody, Mom?

If y'all have a more "professional" way of bringing the whole "bloody business" home to the minds of the average citizen, we await your witness.

Posted by: Leslie Hanks at May 9, 2009 8:13 AM


Bystander, the photos show the reality of abortion. Interesting that you admit the "fetuses" were "mutilated." That was via the abortion you support, as you know. Your choice of terminology is also telling. I don't think you'd call dissected livers or spleens "mutilated."

Posted by: Jill Stanek at May 9, 2009 8:13 AM


The tactic is offensive to be sure and we may not choose to do that, but they are certainly not setting the movement back so why condemn them? They are bring attention to the greatest evil of our day.

Think about it. If the craziest, smelliest, homeless, bum, holocaust protester in Germany walked around one of the death camps day and night with a bloody mannequin for 2 weeks until he was shot dead, he would be considered one of the greatest German heroes of all time by the whole (right thinking) world!

Thanks to our Lord for Keyes & Co. and pray that many hearts will be changed to stop the mass murder of these precious, innocent people.

Posted by: GO Personhood! at May 9, 2009 8:29 AM


Ever ask someone who has never been to an abortion clinic to come pray with you outside the building? First they say 'no' because the activities depicted in this story are exactly the kind that goes through the mind of someone who has never prayed at a clinic. No sensible pro-lifer wants to be associated with these self-indulgent theatrics. If anything it makes our witnessing THAT much harder.

Posted by: Cranky Catholic at May 9, 2009 8:31 AM


Leslie, 8:13a: You say that because you like Keyes. But what about Focus?

Posted by: Jill Stanek at May 9, 2009 8:36 AM


I think when we are considering protest tactics, we need to ask ourselves "what is the purpose of this protest?" In this case, I think we can all agree that it is to raise awareness of the humanity of the unborn, what abortion is, and what it does to an unborn human being in hopes that 1) an individual may decide not to have an abortion and 2) to overturn Roe vs. Wade. OK. Now I think the next step is to put ourselves in the shoes of those people who happen to walk by, and happen to see the protest randomly. What might generate the most interest in a random person to turn them to our cause and consider joining our above goals? And it is when we put ourselves in a random person's shoes that we see that pushing bloody strollers will definitely attract random people but will probably not cause them to take us seriously. Let's face it- if we see grown adults covered in blood pushing strollers with Sponge Bob in them, we simply shrug them off as nuts, as crazy, even though in reality they have very good and very serious things to say.

In contrast, when you see someone solomley standing there prayerfully holding a sign, you may find the sign offensive or gross, but you have more of a sense of class and tact from that person. I think this is the main distinction; that while I would do whatever is necessary to protect the unborn, I think we have to strategize as to what will reach people. It seems to me that a protest with only pictures and prayer will have much more of a chance of reaching people and getting them to ponder the issues rather than an extreme shock tactic which I would have no problem doing if I thought that it would help unborn babies. It just doesn't seem to me like it would.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at May 9, 2009 8:41 AM


I/we love Dr. Dobson enough to confront him
to uphold his pledge to God to never again vote
for someone who would ever deny life to a single
pre-born baby.

By endorsing McCain he broke his oath to God.
Yet he continues to play the oath in the Focus welcome
center, as tho he still upholds his pledge.


Posted by: Leslie Hanks at May 9, 2009 8:46 AM


I'm sure there are plenty of people willing to be arrested for protesting in this cause, but not on the terms of a couple of particular personalities. That is, they don't wish to be identified with those who appear to be narcissistic rather than altruistic. What touches the heart of the Creator would be those who truly suffer, without notice, btw,... like old, infirmed, holy priests who get frisked, jailed and beaten. They seem to give up more without the reward of attention or publicity. They more follow the admonition of "when you pray go to your room and close the door, etc." or when you give don't let one hand know what the other is doing. The Lord sees and knows the genuine offering and grants graces accordingly - whatever the cause! He sees the heart involved.

Posted by: KC at May 9, 2009 8:47 AM


Bobby, 8:41a: Great articulation of the nuances of the differences here.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at May 9, 2009 9:15 AM


Jill, no one will take your precious posters away. But do you ever stop to think how foolish and crazy it looks to normal people when you walk around with bloody dolls and posters?

This circus reminds me of the drag queen/freak shows that always are part of "gay pride" events. These displays anger my gay friends, because they reinforce the bigoted notion that all gays are freaks and exhibitionists.

Just as you anger people who are sincere in their pro-life beliefs, since you reinforce the notion that all pro-lifers are freaks and exhibitionists.

Posted by: Bystander at May 9, 2009 9:23 AM


Leslie, did you get arrested at Focus on the Family? Or was it just your buddies, Bob and Ken?

Posted by: Bystander at May 9, 2009 9:26 AM


"First they say 'no' because the activities depicted in this story are exactly the kind that goes through the mind of someone who has never prayed at a clinic."

No, they say no because they don't want to be seen as the "crazy bible banger who is always praying outside the abortion clinic". In my opinion they can pray outside and it doesn't bother me at all and I pray quite often but they are most certainly not seen as someone a pro-abort would need to worry about as far as converting someone. Witnessing is one thing but actually going out and actively doing something is quite different and as far as i'm concerned. I'm glas there are people with more guts out there who are willing to make a few wave and go to jail for it. Attention is exactly what our cause needs people!

Posted by: rosie at May 9, 2009 9:46 AM


Jill
I agree with your assessment here on Keyes. He is behaving like a spoiled brat who didn't get his way. Its really all about him and getting personal attention. Abortion has NOTHING to do with Sponge Bob or baby strollers and this does turn things into a circus. The graphic images of real, ripped apart babies... hands and feet diemembered, brains literally sucked out of the skull... this IS abortion. Keyes has lost his way and is consumed with bitterness over recent defeats for office, etc. His articles on WND.com are some of the most vitriolic I have read and they are directed at conservative Republicans who he seems to hate more than the Obama types... wow! Sadly, the media if they cover this at all will focus on these fringe types.

Posted by: Rick at May 9, 2009 10:18 AM


"Jasper - good point. I'll clarify in post. He trespassed on ND property yesterday."

Thanks Jill, but what I was referring to is that usually people do not get arrested for walking thru a college campus peacefully like they were. Another example of how pro-lifers are treated like 2nd class citizens.

Posted by: Jasper at May 9, 2009 10:24 AM


Bystander,

Getting arrested isn't my cup of tea, nonetheless, I admire
those with the moral fortitude to stand for their beliefs,
despite the cost.

Why do you ask?

Posted by: Leslie Hanks at May 9, 2009 10:25 AM


During Obama's compaign, he successfully exploited the pre-existing dysfunction within the pro-life movement to divide and conquer his opposition. We cannot let that happsn in this situation.

What Dr. Keyes is doing is extreme but he is an unbending witness for truth and justice. Rather than being threatened with arrest, Dr. Keyes should have been welcomed on campus, given an appropriate venue, and supported by UND. Instead, UND's goal is to keep things as tamped down as possible. Well - it's a little late for that. The pushback is needed, in all it's forms.

Strength to Dr. Keyes who wlll not let our God be mocked.

Posted by: concerned at May 9, 2009 10:31 AM


Well, Leslie, you said you "confronted" Dobson, and I thought that meant you got arrested, like the others for trespassing at Focus. Just curious.

Posted by: Bystander at May 9, 2009 10:35 AM


Mark 9:36-40

36 And He [Jesus] took a little child and put him in the center of their group; and taking him in [His] arms, He said to them,

37 Whoever in My name and for My sake accepts and receives and welcomes one such child also accepts and receives and welcomes Me; and whoever so receives Me receives not only Me but Him Who sent Me.

38 John said to Him, Teacher, we saw a man who does not follow along with us driving out demons in Your name, and we forbade him to do it, because he is not one of our band [of Your disciples].

39 But Jesus said, Do not restrain or hinder or forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in My name will soon afterward be able to speak evil of Me.

40 For he who is not against us is for us. [Num 11:27-29.] AMP

Matt 3:1-2, 4,7-8 1 IN THOSE days there appeared John the Baptist, preaching in the Wilderness (Desert) of Judea

2 And saying, Repent ( think differently; change your mind, regretting your sins and changing your conduct), for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

4 This same John's garments were made of camel's hair, and he wore a leather girdle about his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. [Lev 11:22; 2 Kings 1:8; Zech 13:4.]

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee and escape from the wrath and indignation [of God against disobedience] that is coming?

8 Bring forth fruit that is consistent with repentance [let your lives prove your change of heart]; AMP

Matt 14:3-10 For Herod had arrested John [the Baptist] and bound him and put him in prison [to stow him out of the way] on account and for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife,

4 For John had said to him, It is not lawful or right for you to have her. [Lev 18:16; 20:21.]

5 Although he wished to have him put to death, he was afraid of the people, for they regarded John as a prophet.

10 He sent and had John beheaded in the prison.
AMP

Matt 11:11-12 11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. AMP

Luke 18:9-14 9 He [Jesus] also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves and were confident that they were righteous [that they were upright and in right standing with God] and scorned and made nothing of all the rest of men:

10 Two men went up into the temple [enclosure] to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

11 The Pharisee took his stand ostentatiously and began to pray thus before and with himself: God, I thank You that I am not like the rest of men — extortioners (robbers), swindlers [unrighteous in heart and life], adulterers — or even like this tax collector here.

12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I gain.

13 But the tax collector, [merely] standing at a distance, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but kept striking his breast, saying, O God, be favorable (be gracious, be merciful) to me, the especially wicked sinner that I am!

14 I tell you, this man [tax collector] went down to his home justified (forgiven and made upright and in right standing with God), rather than the other man; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted. AMP


Acts 5:38-42 38 Now in the present case let me say to you, stand off (withdraw) from these men and let them alone. For if this doctrine or purpose or undertaking or movement is of human origin, it will fail (be overthrown and come to nothing);

39 But if it is of God, you will not be able to stop or overthrow or destroy them; you might even be found fighting against God!

40 So, convinced by him, they took his advice; and summoning the apostles, they flogged them and sternly forbade them to speak in or about the name of Jesus, and allowed them to go.

41 So they went out from the presence of the council (Sanhedrin), rejoicing that they were being counted worthy [dignified by the indignity] to suffer shame and be exposed to disgrace for [the sake of] His name.

42 Yet [in spite of the threats] they never ceased for a single day, both in the temple area and at home, to teach and to proclaim the good news (Gospel) of Jesus [as] the Christ (the Messiah). AMP

------------------------------------------------------

I was once priveleged to be in the presence of grandmothers and grandfathers, moms and dads, students and professionals who put their 'dignity' at jeopardy and risk being arrested in the hope that they might save the life of at least one pre-natal child who was scheduled to be executed at a well publicized and identified 'abortuary'.

There are children preparing to graduate from high school who would not be alive today if some selfless people had not been willing to be be 'undignified'.

Whatever God has given 'you' to do, do it with all your ability as though you are employed by the GOD you know and love.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at May 9, 2009 10:41 AM


Some confronted with signs and informational
flyers.

Posted by: Leslie Hanks at May 9, 2009 10:46 AM


From the perspective of an outsider, I see Carla's "I regret my abortion" sign much more effective then Keyes stroller or Jill's bloody posters. I see the difference between what Jill supports and what she questions, but I don't think there is a meaningful distinction. As Bobby said, it's important to reach people with a message they'll hear, rather than dismiss as "nuts or crazy."

Like it or not, your "real" bloody abortion posters, trucks, and banners seem more on the "nuts or crazy" side to people not already on your side.

(Just from friendly observations--feel free to try whatever you think will get the job done)

Posted by: Hal at May 9, 2009 10:46 AM


Alan Keys wasn't doing anything wrong. Arrested for pushing a stroller with a bloody SpoungeBob in protest? I commend Mr Keys for doing this prior to pro-death President Obama's commencement speech at this so-called "Catholic" college!

Posted by: Mike Hassett at May 9, 2009 11:07 AM


Posted by: Leslie Hanks at May 9, 2009 11:08 AM


Thanks Hal but why are they "Jill's bloody posters?"
I would hold one of those signs too!! I would indeed "do time" for praying outside of a mill as well.

The end result of an abortion is torn and bloody pieces of a human child which the posters depict.

Posted by: Carla at May 9, 2009 11:20 AM


Leslie, Alan Keyes has given more powerful pro-life sermons all across this land in the last two decades than any other one hundred "pro-life leaders" I can think of put together. And I know most of them, bless their souls.

But that picture is by far the most powerful speech Alan Keyes has ever delivered, by several orders of magnitude.

Every Christian in America should put feet to their pro-life words and go to South Bend to stand with Dr. Keyes now.

This scandal, and the reaction of Christians to it, as so many events have in the last two years, is going to further separate the sheep from the goats.

For Life and Liberty,

Tom Hoefling
Chairman, America's Independent Party
Chairman, The Personhood Imperative
www.AIPNEWS.com
www.BanAbortionNOW.com

Posted by: Tom Hoefling at May 9, 2009 11:25 AM


I think Keyes wants attention for himself. HE KNEW he was going to be arrested. What exactly did this accomplish except attention for himself?

And the dolls with the fake blood makes me sick. It totally degrades the real victims of abortion who are the helpless and innocent babies.

Posted by: Joanne at May 9, 2009 11:30 AM


I believe Mr. Keyes was pushing Spongebob on private property, and that was why he was arrested. I'm avidly prolife, but if he was in my backyard with bloody dolls, I'd probably call the cops too.

Posted by: Milehimama at May 9, 2009 11:37 AM


"I think Keyes wants attention for himself. HE KNEW he was going to be arrested. What exactly did this accomplish except attention for himself?"

In his defense (god help me) his arrest does generate publicity and discussion of his cause. As you know, most Americans are unaware Obama is going to speak at ND or that there is any controversy about it. Keyes getting arrested makes the news.

Posted by: Hal at May 9, 2009 11:40 AM


MLK did protest and use civil disobedience. But he broke unjust laws. Private property rights are not unjust.

My problem with the bloody dolls, is that it creates a caricature of the children who have been murdered. It lessens their humanity by creating a sensationalized plastic version of the murder victims.

Suddenly, instead of tragic casualties of an America that allows, and encourages, mothers to kill their children and pays for it, the children are reduced to a freak show suitable for TMZ.

It also lessens the credibility of the men and women who work and pray that these children will not be killed.

MLK (to my knowledge; I wasn't there) never dragged black mannequins around behind him connected to a noose.

Posted by: Milehimama at May 9, 2009 11:43 AM


I find it interesting that pro-lifers attack one another. I would never dress up in a skeleton outfit waving flags at people going into clinics, but I would not attack that person for their tactics, especially when some women see that and it hits them more than the typical bloody sign.
Why can't pro-lifers just do their own thing and not be upset at others for what they are doing. Isn't arguing amongst ourselves destructive? Doesn't that exclude people from the pro-life movement?
(All this is said of course with the understanding that it is wrong for a pro-lifer to break any moral commands like do not murder anyone.)
Trespassing is not breaking a moral command, just like a sit down, (aka civil disobedience in the steps of Martin Luther King Jr. ) in order to make a point (knowing you will be arrested) is not wrong.
I have seen women leave a clinic, save their baby, because another pro-lifer has done/said something that I didn't feel comfortable doing. Why should I judge against that pro-lifer? What makes me a "better" pro-lifer than others.
I think this article might lead people to try to judge Alan Keyes wrongly and those who feel showing blood is an accurate portrayal of what occurs secretly in our country every day.

Posted by: Rachel at May 9, 2009 11:48 AM


Dr. King was arrested for breaking the state of Georgia's trespassing law while picketing. He was transferred to Reidsville State Prison but was released on $2000 bond on October 19, 1960.
-http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/mlking.htm

Posted by: Rachel at May 9, 2009 11:49 AM


Leslie, the picture you posted is profound almost beyond words. It draws the parallel between the black man's hands in bondage of slavery to the bondage of abortion. Dr. Keyes is holding the model of a twelve-week-old baby in his left hand. I don't care what position you take -- the comparisons between slavery and abortion are undeniable. My prayers are with Dr. Keyes and his fellow abolitionists who will not stand in prayerful silence any longer. I will publish your picture, Leslie, everywhere I can. Stay strong and continue to speak God's truth, Leslie!

Posted by: Nancy at May 9, 2009 11:54 AM


Posted by: Milehimama at May 9, 2009 11:43 AM

"MLK (to my knowledge; I wasn't there) never dragged black mannequins around behind him connected to a noose."

-----------------------------------------------------

Photographs of black men's charred bodies hanging by their broken necks are still in use today by the opponents of 'racism' to focus on the victims and the bigotry that begat the 'lynchings'.

Marginalizing and de-humanizing the intended victim and the victims defenders and rescuers is just one of the predictable steps that bigots take when they are confronted with their bigotry.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at May 9, 2009 11:59 AM


"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18

Alan Keyes is not an embarrassment to me. His actions demonstrate humility, sincerity and integrity.

Posted by: Savvy at May 9, 2009 12:05 PM


Let me get this straight. The people who carry around 6' x 8' posters of mutilated fetuses, blown up 50x, are criticizing the people who push fake "dead babies" in strollers, for "bad taste"!!!!!! You can't make this up!

Bystander, what's the problem with our pictures? Do they bother you? If so, why?

Posted by: heather at May 9, 2009 12:08 PM


Jill and all: I am not sure that Dr. Keye's antics were as terribly disruptive as stated. Yes, perhaps they were not in the best taste, but, Lord knows the brutality and pain suffered by the defenseless little ones cries out for justice.

I agree, though, it is healthy that we have an open forum on this matter. The jury is still out as to how effective these kinds of tactics are, but there is well documented evidence that when some people finally see the truth behind the media black-out of the reality of abortion, that it has changed their minds.

But, on the other side of the matter there are people who really get turned off by the bloody baby displays. Just yesterday we witnessed a passerby pushing a baby stroller descend into epitaths of "f" bombs as she confronted a man holding a baby Malachi sign. There is a rage roiling beneath the surface in some people that these signs gives vent to. For this particular woman it was a sense of moral highmindedness that says good taste prevails over terrible reality.

To some degree I sympathize with that woman, but the absolute horror of dismembered babies in my mind trumps the sense of decor. Would the concentration camps in Germany have been sustained had the world known of the depravity inside? If German citizens had the ability to protest and display images of the shrunken, almost cadaver like detainees in those camps, and the media had displayed those images, would the situation endured for as long as it did?

Posted by: Jerry at May 9, 2009 12:34 PM



Posted by: Bystander at May 9, 2009 9:23 AM

"But do you ever stop to think how foolish and crazy it looks to

'normal'

people when you walk around with bloody dolls and posters?"

-----------------------------------------------

normal-

a:according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle.

b: conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern.

c: of, relating to, or characterized by average intelligence or development b: free from mental disorder : sane.

bystander,

By 'normal' do you mean people who agree with you?

I once viewed all 'protesters' as wackos, but once I was confronted with the injustice of pre-natal homicide, my conscience constrained me to take some sort of action.

It was hard to do, but I carried a sign on a picket line.

Since then I have a different attitude towards people who are passionate enough about an issue to protest publicly .

I may not agree with them, but I give them props and creds for having the courage to act consistently with their convictions.

Contrary to the contemporary liberal/progressive notion of civility and polical correctness the 'Boston Tea Party' was not tea and crumpets in the afternoon.

It was a co-ordinated criminal conspiracy intended to challenge the tax policy of the existing government and involved trespass and the willfull destruction of private property.

To divert attention the 'protesters' disguised themselves as indigenous people.

Now that was tacky!

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at May 9, 2009 12:34 PM


More Americans think it's immoral to wear fur than think it's immoral to get a divorce or an abortion. Most Americans favor "gay rights" to some extent.
Like it or not, these are the kinds of tactics that work to influence public opinion.

JC (8:00AM), I think you are off base about this. Regarding the success of the animal rights and gay rights movements in shifting public opinion (which has achieved success with the younger generations much more than with older folks), far more important than public theatrics, has been the infiltration of their ideas into elementary and secondary school education.

Kids who are taught (either directly or through suggestion and innuendo repeated over the years) at school that animals are people too, and that gay marriage is just fine, grow up to be adults who believe these things. The public theatrics of these groups, I would bet, have had very little to do with it.

Posted by: Scott Johnston at May 9, 2009 12:40 PM


More Americans think it's immoral to wear fur than think it's immoral to get a divorce or an abortion. Most Americans favor "gay rights" to some extent.
Like it or not, these are the kinds of tactics that work to influence public opinion.

It has nothing to do with tactics. Gay people and animals are more sympathetic than fetuses. Killing small furry animals in the name of fashion, or discriminating against gay people in the name of tradition just seems wrong. There's really no compelling argument for fur or for discrimination against gay people.

Abortion is completely different because on the one hand you have a fetus that might look cute but can't feel or think yet, and on the other you have women and teenage girls who we don't want dying in septic abortion wards. There is a very compelling argument against illegal abortion: women will die.

It has nothing to do with tactics. And frankly, I don't see how you can draw a line between bloody baby dolls and the other ridiculous things anti-choice protesters do. It all looks like a freak show to the general, non-activist public.

Posted by: reality at May 9, 2009 1:00 PM


People believe gay marriage "is just fine," because it is. Not because they are taught it. I think those who oppose gay marriage are doing so simply because that's the belief they've always been taught.

Posted by: Hal at May 9, 2009 1:00 PM


Bobby (8:41AM) wrote,

when you see someone solomley standing there prayerfully holding a sign, you may find the sign offensive or gross, but you have more of a sense of class and tact from that person. I think this is the main distinction; that while I would do whatever is necessary to protect the unborn, I think we have to strategize as to what will reach people.

And Milehimama (11:43AM) wrote,

My problem with the bloody dolls, is that it creates a caricature of the children who have been murdered. It lessens their humanity by creating a sensationalized plastic version of the murder victims.

I agree with both of you. Well said.

Someone else mentioned the unusual character of the arrest. I was thinking the same. Any adult not a student at a university can walk across any university campus I have seen and not fear being arrested for trespassing. Though private university campuses are private property, I think there is a public quality to some areas of college campuses so that they operate somewhat like a public space (think of church parking lots for a comparison). That being said, I don't agree with the bloody doll tactic. I do agree with a careful and serious use of authentic graphic photos.

Posted by: Scott Johnston at May 9, 2009 1:03 PM


Posted by: Jerry at May 9, 2009 12:34 PM

"Just yesterday we witnessed a passerby pushing a baby stroller descend into epitaths of "f" bombs as she confronted a man holding a baby Malachi sign."

---------------------------------------------------

Jerry,

Just 20 years ago I was carrying a sign outside an 'abortuary' with the photograph of an intact human embryo/fetus and some innocuous text like 'Choose Life' and a woman, who was well beyond her child bearing years, approached me and became almost apoplectic as she emptied her bomb bay full of f-bombs.

They were not 'smart' f-bombs.

She was relying on quantity rather than accuracy to destroy her intended target.

Unhealed wounds remain sensitive even though years have passed since the injury occurred.

There are some wounds time cannot heal.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at May 9, 2009 1:07 PM


"There is a very compelling argument against illegal abortion: women will die."

There is also a very compelling argument against legal abortion: a female OR a male dies EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at May 9, 2009 1:12 PM


Keyes was arrested because he had been told not to come on campus. Otherwise, the open nature of a campus would protect you from arrest.

Posted by: Hal at May 9, 2009 1:16 PM


Posted by: Hal at May 9, 2009 1:00 PM

"People believe gay marriage "is just fine," because it is."
--------------------------------------------------
Hal,

Thanks for resolving the issue for us.[sarcasm]

Some people believe the 'state' equating homosexual unions with heterosexual marriage is not just fine, because it is both factually incorrect and morally wrong.

Some of these people are atheists, humanists, liberals, progressives, socialists, democrats, etc,.

I am not a member of the aforementioned classes of people, but I agree with them on this issue.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at May 9, 2009 1:24 PM


Hal,

"Keyes was arrested because he had been told not to come on campus. Otherwise, the open nature of a campus would protect you from arrest."

Is this based on the fact that ND is a private school? I'm asking sort of in general. So can anyone be on any public or private college campus unless they are specifically told they may not be? Or is there a public/private school distinction?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 9, 2009 1:29 PM


It's mostly the private/public thing Bobby. A private school can exclude anyone they want for almost any reason. But, because the campus is considered "open to the public" you couldn't be arrested for trespassing by walking around. This doesn't mean you or I could walk into a dorm or a classroom. We could probably walk around the "public" areas. However, if you have been specifically warned that you're not welcome, then you do get arrested. Stores for example, can issue "trespass admonishments" to suspected shoplifters. If they go back to that store, they can be arrested. You or I can walk into the store and shop, but we couldn't snoop around the back room.

The government can't ban someone because of the content of their message, so Keyes would could not have been warned to stay out of a particular park, or sidewalk. A public university is a more complicated question. In general, I think they would be treated more like a private university, but perhaps with more careful scrutiny of the reasons they're trying to prevent someone from being on campus. A private school can legally say, we don't want any anti-abortion protests on our land. I don't think a public university could limit a particular viewpoint. It's an interesting question, but I haven't researched it.

Posted by: Hal at May 9, 2009 1:43 PM


Great, thanks Hal. Makes sense.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at May 9, 2009 1:49 PM


The audacity of a catholic, entering the campus of a catholic university, carrying an exact replica of a 12 week old human fetus in one hand and a rosary in the other hand and praying to the lady for whom said universtiy was named, asking her to petition God the Father to remind the catholic priest, who is president of said catholic university, what the catholic church and, not conincidentally the Son of God, teaches about those who harm the 'least of these little ones'.

yor bro ken


Posted by: kbhvac at May 9, 2009 1:56 PM


Bobby quoted someone who said ""There is a very compelling argument against illegal abortion: women will die."

I would like to point out that women die from "safe, legal" abortions quite frequently. Check out http://realchoice.blogspot.com There you will find abortion deaths from both legal and illegal abortions.

Also, I'd like to note that the number of women who died from abortion was actually lower in the year prior to Roe than the year after Roe. The number had been decreasing since the advent of antiseptic.

The numbers of supposed abortion deaths was completely fabricated. Dr. Bernard Nathanson openly admits that he lied about the numbers of abortion occuring, the number of women killed by abortion, and public support for abortion.

Posted by: Lauren at May 9, 2009 2:41 PM


Quite a variety of opinions on this topic, I see. Of all those I read, Rachel's stands out as having the most common sense.

Since the ProLife "movement" is not monolithic or actually united in any way, there are bound to be many clashes of opinion about what tactics are most efficient, and which are "acceptable". That is unfortunate, but unavoidable.

My suggestion for those prolifers who find the tactics of other prolifers "unacceptable" is simply not to use those tactics, and bite your tongue before you publicly chastise them.

Unless you believe that person/group to be insincere and trying to hurt the ProLife cause, it is you yourself who is doing the most harm by picking a public fight with other ProLifers, IMO.

Over my years as an activist I've seen many different tactics tried, even some "theatrics" that seem more bizarre than the festivals of the sixties. But sometimes trying new things is just what we need, at least until it is proven that they are ineffective. We need new ideas, we need new energy and new enthusiasm to break the "status quo" that we seem stuck in. It is simply not enough to "try a little" and stop short of actually experiencing personal discomfort. This is a war, and we ought to be on the lookout for new ways to stop the slaughter, and not just this as a worthy cause that we have taken up as a sort of "hobby" in our spare time.

And finally, let me assure you that no matter how mild and conservative your tactics/activities are, you will still be attacked visciously by both the proaborts and the "almost prolifers" all around you. You can't get unoffensive enough to avoid being attacked, any time you try to stand up and speak up for the unborn. So why not just go ahead and ignore them, and do what your heart tells you to do?

Posted by: Doyle Chadwick at May 9, 2009 2:42 PM


Since this isn't the Miss USA pageant I think we all PL and PC alike, are entitled to our opinions. :)

Milehimama,
Thank you for saying what I could not find the words to say. My daughter Aubrey who died during an abortion is best depicted in the photos of babies aborted at 10 weeks. Those hands and fingers, feet and toes hurt to look at but those are the children that die every day in abortion. Bloody dolls do not show how my daughter died.

Posted by: Carla at May 9, 2009 3:08 PM


Here's a few points to consider:

- Dr. Keyes & Terry assume the media will promote their protest. The truth is, they won't, because if the MSM covered for Obama over BAIPA or Partial Birth Abortion or FOCA, they certainly won't provide wide exposure for Keyes. From the look of it, the coverage is spotty, minimal. This was not a human-rights protest that built a momentum to arrive at a consequential act. I know it's suppose to spark momentum... we'll see.

- A more effective protest would have been to put together a march on the day of commencement with perhaps 10,000-15,000 people. March as a human wave onto ND during commencement. Force the state try to stop the wave. Just keep going. The press would cover that. Arrests? They'd be going nuts. Particularly if cardinals, bishops and priests were leading the charge. Nice story - Catholic school calls to arrest Catholic priests for marching onto campus... How do you think it would be spun? Make it un-spinnable.

- If you could gather enough people to represent the generations of Indianans killed by abortion, that would be powerful. One protester per aborted child. Each protestor carry a pair of baby shoes to bring and pile at the base of the platform.

- every pro-life effort needs a team of coordinated volunteer journalists to cover events. I'm talking several hundred cameras, still and video cameras in addition to cell phones cameras etc.. There needs to be a support center set up to dump the raw material out to teams waiting to distribute it to the world.

- Who is the audience? Cold hardened hearts will not turn because Keyes goes marching in with Sponge Bob in a stroller. But if teens went marching in - that would be a bigger problem, because America's youth would look rebellious and the state would be squashing their rights. If commencement is about kicking off making your mark in the world - thousands of teens marching into a campus would be making a major mark for life.

- If Keyes had lead a huge contingent of post-abortive mothers with red tape on their mouths that would've been far more effective. But timing wise....

- What's the long term strategy? If you're alienating the base because your actions seem narcissistic, then all it does is isolate you. Pro-lifers cannot pull anarchist bleeding-edge stunts because the principle is the violence of abortion cannot be stopped with violence. However, pro-lifers can be civilly disobedient in ways that force the state to question why this is happening, and give pause to many others about their liberties and beliefs. That's why the teaparties were mocked - because they represent a serious threat by a small contingent of highly passionate people.

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at May 9, 2009 3:41 PM


There is a big difference between showing documented evidence (i.e., photos) and making up fake-o plastic bodies like a bad halloween joke.

Posted by: Milehimama at May 9, 2009 5:42 PM


I mostly lurk around here, but when I think someone is harming the prolife cause, and doing injustice to the murder victims, then yes, I will stand up and say something.

Just because someone else is prolife doesn't mean I must agree and go along with everything they say or do. The Westboro Baptists are prolife, but I wouldn't hesistant to criticize their tactics, for example.

Posted by: Milehimama at May 9, 2009 5:47 PM


Not sure why pushing a stroller with a doll on it is offensive and a plane flying through ND airspace all day with a giant photo of a bloody, dead baby is not. I personally have NO problem with either approach.

Seems to me a diversity of approaches is needed: Prayer, petitions, political lobbying, witholding donations, funding pro-life groups, letters to the editor, phone calls, trucks, planes, strollers, etc. Each of us is called to something different.

The more approaches the better, as long as people are non-violent and respectful. If they trespass and peacefully accept arrest as a form of civil disobedience, that seems fine to me to.

Posted by: ND Alum at May 9, 2009 6:02 PM


People believe gay marriage "is just fine," because it is. Not because they are taught it. I think those who oppose gay marriage are doing so simply because that's the belief they've always been taught.

If you are trying to somehow equalize gay "marriage" and marriage you must delierately bypass the fundamentals. Gay "marriage" can only ape marriage. Marriage is the standard bearer for the start of comparison. It is. The other therefore isn't. You have certain essentials that already exist and necessarily form the definition. If those are not there, then it's only counterfeit, "aping". We don't need another "emperor's new clothes" situation. We already have Obama!

Posted by: KC at May 9, 2009 6:20 PM


Rachel and Diago ... I couldn't agree with you more and it's refreshing to see your posts. I wish Jill would lay off the "competition" and do her own thing. This blog is nothing but a pro-life rag sheet. Strange combination indeed. Jill should pick what she'd rather do (rip people apart or try to save babies from the same fate), and then stick with it.

Posted by: maggielee at May 9, 2009 7:08 PM


I'd like to entroduce my self. I was the smallest baby in the United States in 1979, waying One pound and five ounces, and eleven inches long, I was given only a two percent chance of serviving. I'm turning thirty at the end of this moth, so thouse of you that think the prolife movement doesn't amount to any thing, just look at my situation. My mother chose not to abort me when she could have!

Posted by: RJ Sandefur (The smallest baby in the United States in 1979) at May 9, 2009 7:30 PM


RJ, God bless!!!

Posted by: heather at May 9, 2009 7:31 PM


If we are to judge a tree by its fruit, what can we say about this? I was not always pro life, and part of what kept me away was those that i considered to be extremists. The easier you made it for me to label someone as extreme, the easier it became to dismiss the pro life cause. What converted me was actually an "i regret my abortion" poster and the calm, loving witness of a priest. He had facts and he didn't seem threatened by my view. I felt he was a normal human being that could understand me "as i considered myself a normal human being". I have now taken that same approach to talk to many other people with pro choice views and have seen a lot of success, and one thing remains the same, NONE of them have had their views converted or even shook by graphic photo's OR this sort of thing Mr Keys did. in fact, that just hardens their hearts. perhaps those who use these tactics know they work because of the droves that join their cause from the enemy lines... I haven't experienced this. However, if have seen that if people trust me and see that I respect them, they are willing to listen. I'm not worried about converting the whole world at once, but only loving those that God sends to me, as many as that is, in truth. as well as not being afraid or ashamed to live the Gospel. God bless all of you for your desire to do what is right. I share what has worked for me, make sure what works for you actually works and isn't just idealism. idealism is good when the ideal is God's will. but the devil likes to twist things to suit his purposes, he even does this with our zeal for a good cause. but what do i know. Just trying to judge the trees by the fruit.
Peace
Love
Blessings

Posted by: Broseph at May 9, 2009 7:34 PM



Not sure why pushing a stroller with a doll on it is offensive and a plane flying through ND airspace all day with a giant photo of a bloody, dead baby is not

Let me try to clarify.

One reason the dolls in the stroller offends me so much, in addition to my previous comments, is that it also makes a mockery of the circumstances surrounding the actual victims death.

Aborted babies are aborted at their mother's request. Those babies' mothers couldn't be bothered with strollers or walks. In addition to creating a tabloid style caricature of murder victims, Keyes et al give the FAKE babies privileges that the real babies never had.

Plus, it's a publicity stunt to put attention on the PROTESTOR, not the issue or victim.

Posted by: Milehimama at May 9, 2009 8:31 PM


Milehimama,

Good point.

Posted by: Jasper at May 9, 2009 8:54 PM


Two things come to mind as I review this thread -
Jill has expended a fair amount of ink criticizing
American Right to Life for being critical of other
pro-lifers (who support laws that clearly violate
God's enduring command, "Thou shall not murder.")
This thread is clearly doing precisely what she says is off limits.

Am I the only one who thinks it incredibly odd that
our resident pro-abort "gets it" when so many
"pro-lifers" don't??

Posted by: Leslie Hanks at May 9, 2009 9:02 PM


One reason the dolls in the stroller offends me so much, in addition to my previous comments, is that it also makes a mockery of the circumstances surrounding the actual victims death.

Aborted babies are aborted at their mother's request. Those babies' mothers couldn't be bothered with strollers or walks. In addition to creating a tabloid style caricature of murder victims, Keyes et al give the FAKE babies privileges that the real babies never had.

Plus, it's a publicity stunt to put attention on the PROTESTOR, not the issue or victim.
Posted by: Milehimama at May 9, 2009 8:31 PM

Absolutely! You couldn't have said it better.

As an ardent pro lifer the dolls and the fake blood in carriages really offends me.

Thanks for explaining this so well.

Posted by: Joanne at May 9, 2009 9:17 PM


"...(a fetus) that can't feel or think yet"...Reality. Actually, there is much evidence to the contrary. Unborn children DO react to physical stimuli, and brain scans of unborn children DO reveal significant mental activity. We know, for example, that unborn children react to music.

The most astonishing thing about Reality's statement (and Reality is not alone) is the underlying presumption that we are enlightened enough to make such a sweeping claim. Equally amazing is the same people who would react with horror if an animal were to be abused, who seem to know that these animals feel pain, deny both science and intuition when it comes to an unborn human baby being able to feel pain.

Medical breakthroughs and new horizons of scientific knowledge are being discovered on an almost daily basis. As we study embryology and fetal development we are sure to uncover new, previously unknown facts that challenge here-to-fore unquestioned notions thought to be absolute.

On matters such as this we must keep an open mind. Many abortion advocates are stuck on the notion that the human fetus is something less than an incredibly complex, unique individual. On this subject alone they are amazingly closed minded. We understand the reason for this, because to recognize the humanity of the unborn child creates a conumdrum for many pro-choicers who base their position on abortion upon false notions about fetal development.

Posted by: Jerry at May 9, 2009 10:55 PM


The end result of an abortion is torn and bloody pieces of a human child which the posters depict.

Posted by: Carla at May 9, 2009 11:20 AM

Carla,
just a couple of months ago you protested my referring to abotion as tearing baies from their mother's wombs in bloody pieces. Have you had a change of heart?

And Keyes and Co. rock!

Posted by: truthseeker at May 10, 2009 12:55 AM


Let me try to clarify.

One reason the dolls in the stroller offends me so much, in addition to my previous comments, is that it also makes a mockery of the circumstances surrounding the actual victims death.

Aborted babies are aborted at their mother's request. Those babies' mothers couldn't be bothered with strollers or walks. In addition to creating a tabloid style caricature of murder victims, Keyes et al give the FAKE babies privileges that the real babies never had.

Plus, it's a publicity stunt to put attention on the PROTESTOR, not the issue or victim.

Posted by: Milehimama at May 9, 2009 8:31 PM


And what is a crucifix milehimama?

A bloody reminder of what they did to the son of God. Which is why the Evangelicals are the pro life group protesting Allan Keyes.

Any Catholic who thinks a baby stroller with a bloody doll in it is offensive, is a CINO.

Protestants and Evangelicals have no CRUCIFIX"'S anywhere near their house of worship.

Take a guess why.

P.S. When you read this censor, be sure to not post it, since your innner prejudice always win's the day.

Posted by: yllas at May 10, 2009 4:21 AM



Why don't/didn't Evangelicals protest against those Protestant Universities, the Ivy League, when abortion was being reviewed and found to be a new virtue of Christians?

Because deep down, Evangelicals are incapable of a coherent biblical response to abortion. The bible was neutralized by those Protestant Ivy League theologians.


Where were all those Protestants protesting and being arrested, when those Protestant universities made God into a murderer of his innocent Creation?

Deep down, Evangelicals are nothing more then Christians who experienced a "personal feeling", that their abortion was a "sin" or wrong. Before that, they were mainline Protestant's following the love of God by allowing abortion of his Creation.


You let the abortion cat out of the bag, and your really aren't going to allow abortion to be illegal again.


Posted by: yllas at May 10, 2009 4:57 AM


Leslie, 9:02p, wrote:

Jill has expended a fair amount of ink criticizing American Right to Life for being critical of other pro-lifers (who support laws that clearly violate God's enduring command, "Thou shall not murder.") This thread is clearly doing precisely what she says is off limits.

Leslie, that's a fair critique. We both appear to be hypocritical.

I criticize you for lambasting pro-life Dobson, Focus on the Family, and incrementalists, whom you say are not pro-life enough and who are adding to the body count of preborn babies.

And you criticize me for lambasting Terry, Keyes and purists, who I say are engaged in counterproductive activity and are adding to the body count of preborn babies.

I've been thinking about this, noting that very point in my own mind.

I could spend a lot of time justifying my thoughts, and you'll use them to justify yours.

I'll say this. The consistent thread for me is ARTL, CORTL, Terry, Keyes, and Enyart all belong to the same tribe within the pro-life movement, whose actions I find in general to be counterproductive.

And I'll say this group often ends up on the same side as pro-aborts, albeit for different reasons, but nonetheless telling. And your thoughts and actions often end up as bolstering words on pro-abort blogs (such as your PBA Ban laments), which is also telling. You exemplified this in the same aforementioned comment:

Am I the only one who thinks it incredibly odd that our resident pro-abort "gets it" when so many "pro-lifers" don't??

I don't think it's a good thing to use pro-abort agreement to validate your point.

That said, as someone pointed out in a comment, who's to know years down the road if efforts like Terry/Keyes over the weekend add to the tension against the culture of death in general? Someone mentioned the animal rights activists who threw fake blood on women wearing fur coats. They were roundly condemned, but did they subliminally add to the cultural disfavor against fur coats? Probably.

The same could be speculated about Terry/Keyes' actions at ND. That's one reason I wrote at the onset of this post I won't be saying anything more about them unless they do something really outrageous, which I don't think they will. While I disagree with their tactics, I expect somehow, some way they help increase the tension.

In fact, their actions have already borne short-term fruit, forcing ND to pay for extra police coverage, as MSM articles today.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at May 10, 2009 6:25 AM


TS,
Change of heart?! I know what an abortion is and what it did to my child.

Have you found more compassion in your heart for mothers who regret the day their child was aborted? Or more compassion in your heart for mothers who DO NOT regret it?

You stood in judgment of mothers who have aborted. I am one, as are hundreds of my friends. That is what I took issue with.

Posted by: Carla at May 10, 2009 6:29 AM


Carla,
When I had made the comment it was not directed at post-abortive mother's it was directed at Hal.
Happy Mother's Day and may God bless all you mommies out there!! ts

Posted by: truthseeker at May 10, 2009 8:24 AM


Someone mentioned the animal rights activists who threw fake blood on women wearing fur coats. They were roundly condemned, but did they subliminally add to the cultural disfavor against fur coats? Probably.

The same could be speculated about Terry/Keyes' actions at ND.


Jill you make an interesting point here but....?

This tactic is not new. People have been doing this sort of thing (showing pictures, the bloodies dolls etc.) for years and it simply hasn't had the same effect that the animal rights movement had with theatrics and over the top pictures.
Think about it. How many pictures have we seen of battered seals, harpooned bludgeoned whales, foxes and wolves in leg traps etc.? And these worked. People said, "Oh my God, this is terrible. We have to stop this."

Now think about how many movies, sonograms, pictures the public has been exposed to regarding abortion. Even a dead baby, fully formed lying limp and battered on a table after being aborted doesn't seem to have much impact anymore.
We need to ask ourselves why this is so?
Look at the response of people to both sets of pictures.

In the first instance, the actions of the animal rights people changed others behaviors. They stopped wearing furs (although this trend is starting to reverse somewhat). Fox hunts were discontinued. Canada can't sell it's seal products although the Inuit hunt seal as a way of life.

In the second instance the response has been to ban the pictures of aborted babies. We can't get even the most innocuous of pictures on buses, television or in magazines. Why?
Not only that but the very validity of these pictures are called into question. Silent scream is considered fake. The aborted baby pictures are toted as being fake. How many people questioned the validity of the dead baby seal pictures? (many were staged pictures)

So I have to ask myself what is it that makes human beings want to stop killing animals but at the same time believe that there is a "right" to kill an innocent helpless human baby in the most barbaric way - by dismemberment?


Posted by: angel at May 10, 2009 8:32 AM


Much like the different Christian demoninations that need to set aside their differences / preferences for the sake of unity, so does the Pro-Life movement.

There were several posters who commented that the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform pictures were offensive and turned them off to our cause. At the same time, many babies have been saved as a result of this imagery and the CBR website.

We are never going to totally agree on what tactics are the most effective or which may be too offensive. Yet we are encouraged to find common ground: Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Co 1:10

There is a tremendous synergy in unity as taught by the Scriptures. (see Ec 4.12, Le 26.8, De 32.20) We will be much more effective (exponentially) if we focus on our common goals. In fact, I believe it's the only way we're going to win this war.

Where should the line be drawn? In a big inclusive circle - Unite for Life!

Posted by: Ed at May 10, 2009 8:43 AM


Increase social tension!!

No child killing with tranquility!

www.collaboratorsproject.com

Posted by: Leslie Hanks at May 10, 2009 8:46 AM


Increase social tension!!

No child killing with tranquility!

www.collaboratorsproject.com

Posted by: Leslie Hanks at May 10, 2009 8:47 AM


Hey Angel,

I'll take a stab at a few of your comments.

I believe that just like our hands become calloused with work and repeated use, the human heart gets hard or conditioned to seeing the same images or information. Scripture talks about the need to "Break up the fallow ground" of our hearts.

It also uses the symbolism that our flawed reasonings and arguments (e.g. "it's my body, I have the right to terminate my pregnancy if I want to and the goverment should stay out of my business" are strongholds that must be torn down if we are going to see the truth. (2 Co 10.4-5, 2 Co 4.4, Mt 13.13-15)

It amazes me as well how hard the human heart can become so as to perform or even tolerate such evil.

May God have mercy on us.

Posted by: Ed at May 10, 2009 9:16 AM


angel and Ed, that's where Micheal Savage coined the phrase "LIBERALISM IS A MENTAL DISORDER"...there is something REALLY WRONG with the way they think!!!!!!

Posted by: heather at May 10, 2009 9:57 AM


Never ever should an animal's life be valued over the life of a human being!!!! I don't care what anyone says. I don't condone animal cruelty, but I also don't condone the murder of children!

Posted by: heather at May 10, 2009 10:00 AM


"This is so ironic: a Catholic university arresting peaceful pro-life protesters while paying for extra security to honor the most pro-abortion president in history."

Why do you state this Jill?

What other fruit can come of a man like Obama? This is just the tip of the iceberg who years from now will be revealed as the most destructive president in history. In truth he is a divider not a uniter, he a thief, he is a communist, he is a blasphemer and worst of all he is the world leader of the movement to kill innocent children in the womb.

Posted by: HisMan at May 10, 2009 11:36 AM



And He [Jesus] took a little child and put him in the center of their group; and taking him in [His] arms, He said to them,

Whoever in My name and for My sake accepts and receives and welcomes one such child also accepts and receives and welcomes Me; and whoever so receives Me receives not only Me but Him Who sent Me.

John said to Him, Teacher, we saw a man who does not follow along with us driving out demons in Your name, and we forbade him to do it, because he is not one of our band [of Your disciples].

But Jesus said, Do not restrain or hinder or forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in My name will soon afterward be able to speak evil of Me.

For he who is not against us is for us.
-------------------------------------------------------------
General Eisenhower, commander of the Allied Forces during WWII said one of his biggest jobs was to continualy remind the 'Allies' who the enemy was.

What ever God has given you to do, do it with all your ability as an employee of the the LORD.

Unity of the Spririt does not mean that we all agree with one another, but that we all agree with GOD.

From my experience HE is quite capable of directing one person to do one thing and another person to do a different thing.

Sometimes the two different things 'appear' to be mutually exclusive and counterproductive.

'religion' demands uniformity, but the Creator delights in diversity.

When Jesus was hanging on the cross, brutalized and dying, I am confident few, if any, recognized the efficacy of that strategy.

The disciples had pinned all their hopes on this one man and now he was as dead as any other mortal and His followers were left to fend for themselves.

Most, if not all of them, were paralyzed by fear.

They were were hiding in building with all the doors and windows barred shut for 'fear' they would be apprehended next.

They had witnessed their King, Messiah, and LORD being killed at the bequest of the religious leaders of their day who were collaborators with their Roman occupiers.

God does not require success, HE desires obedience. Not out of fear of punishment, but from a grateful heart that has been changed by HIS love.

Pray, fast, pray some more, not to 'succeed' but to have ears to hear, the eyes to see and a willing heart to do what God asks of you.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at May 10, 2009 3:04 PM



And what is a crucifix milehimama?

I would object to a crucifix, copy of the Pieta, etc. being used in sensationalized way that took attention away from Christ or mocked His sacrifice - like certain "art exhibits" do.

I am not opposed to realistic representations/photo documentation being used to educate people on the issues, and think it's a good idea.

Protestants and Evangelicals have no CRUCIFIX"'S anywhere near their house of worship.

Not sure where you get your info, but many Evangelical churches put on Passion plays and have artwork depicting Christ's sacrifice explicitly or implicitly.

I also know a few who own rosaries and know how to use them. My husband is a Southern Baptist, and we have crucifixes in our home.

Posted by: Milehimama at May 10, 2009 3:55 PM


For the record, SpongeBob + ketchup in a stroller is not a realistic representation of a child drawn and quarted at his mother's request.

Posted by: Milehimama at May 10, 2009 3:57 PM


To clarify--

Keyes and Terry were arrested for trespassing, and these were not special rules made up for the occasion.

From Notre Dame's duLac guide to student life:

"Demonstrations
All demonstrations must be registered in writing with the Associate
Vice President for Residence Life and also must observe the following
rules:
a. All demonstrations must be peaceful and orderly.
b. Only members of the University community may organize or
lead a demonstration on campus.
c. Demonstrators may not impede the freedom of the
University community."

Those who participate peacefully in the ND Response-led on-campus demonstrations the weekend of commencement will not be bothered. Those who attempt to otherwise venture on to campus with graphic images, strollers, etc. probably will be.

No double standard here, the same standards have been applied to outside protesters at ND in the past (such as a gay rights caravan that attempted to make a stop here a couple of years ago).

Posted by: anon at May 10, 2009 4:45 PM


From Caos blog:

I agree with Keyes on this - and I am amazed that Illinois Review would ask the question:

IMPACTFUL OR EMBARRASSING? KEYES ARRESTED AT NOTRE DAME

Being that today there are “free speech zones” - Christians - who are still much of the republican base (but who are being admonished by republicans for being ‘radical extremists’)- If that’s the case, our founders were “radical extremists”. Christians today are being maligned by this administration. As an example, Obama just snubbed the National Day Of Prayer,is on record saying we are no longer a Christian nation and poked fun at the Bible - from which we obtained our laws!!!

I think more people need to stand up against these speech codes and the rest before we’re not allowed to stand up at all.

I commend Alan Keyes for what he did here - and all the others who were arrested; we should be free to speak our minds in this country - hell, the leftists are not only allowed to do that and deface property, they get news coverage and book deals for it.

We should never have to apologized for our Christian beliefs or hide them. Shockingly, I really believe it’s coming to that - as though we were living in the Soviet Union.

It is Obama who should be embarassed - and I think Notre Dame should never have honored Obama - considering Notre Dame is supposed to be a “Catholic” private University.

http://caosblog.com/10310

Posted by: Leslie Hanks at May 10, 2009 9:55 PM


And what is a crucifix milehimama

Posted by milehimama.

Gee, what does a crucifix represent Milehi?


A bloody reminder of God being murdered by humans.

Maybe it should have been a bloody "Baby Jesus" that Keyes was strolling with, and you might be offended again Milehi.

Or, the "Sacred Heart of Mary". A image of a heart outside of the body. What does that symbolize Milehimama?

In fact, a abortion is a bloody offence against a innocent human being, as was the bloody death of God.

Yes or no?

You will find no crucifix's in Protestant or Evangelical churches. Putting on a "play", is exactly that.......playing.

No Protestant or Evangelical wears a crucifix, they wear "crosses". A bland symbol of a bloody act, reduced to a symbol that any person wears as a trinket, a piece of "jewelry".

And every rosary has a crucifix attached to those beads, don't they Milehi?

Some of the greatest art work in Western civilization are representations of the crucifix, or a cross, with God in his final human state......bloody.

Got any Protestant artwork which is centered upon a bloody death of God on a cross?


Protestants rejected the crucifix hundreds of years ago. Care to tell me why they did, Milehimama?

This site always finds a way to snipe at Catholic's and their "culture". Such as this article on a Catholic named Allan Keyes.


Posted by: yllas at May 11, 2009 6:30 AM


Yllas, Protestants focus on the risen Savior, hence the empty cross, while Catholics focus on the suffering of the Savior, hence Jesus on the cross. Both have merit. Stop bashing Protestants or you'll be banned again. This post is not about bashing Catholics. You'd see it's quite the opposite if you weren't so paranoid.

Angel, 8:32a: The reason people accept photos of bloodied animals and turn on the killers while they reject photos of bloodied preborn babies and turn on the messengers is because so many people are complicit with abortion, either having had one, encouraged one, enabled one, or accepted one.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at May 11, 2009 7:00 AM


So I have to ask myself what is it that makes human beings want to stop killing animals but at the same time believe that there is a "right" to kill an innocent helpless human baby in the most barbaric way - by dismemberment?

I realize you were talking about marketing earlier in this post, in which you brought up the good question about how why it works for animals but not abortion. (I have no answer to that.)

But animal rights causes don't make a very good parallel to abortion. The animals you're talking about are born already, so it's not a fair comparison unless you're talking specifically about killing born babies.

Even animal rights activists don't get up in arms about veterinarians aborting a litter of puppies, for instance. Most animal activists believe in population control and forcibly sterilize their pets. They also believe in euthanasia, in which the animal has no say.

Those are parallels that don't really help your cause. Not that I've ever come across an analogy that works well for abortion, actually.

Posted by: Terezia at May 11, 2009 7:00 AM


Yllas, you are out of line. Many "protestants" (I don't like the word; I am a Christian, not a protestant of the Catholic church) are indeed fully against abortion. To say that Protestants don't use crucifixes because we don't want to be reminded that we caused Jesus to suffer is as ridiculous as saying that Catholics who consistently picture Jesus on the cross don't believe that he ever got off and rose again. The suffering Jesus on the cross and the empty cross proclaiming that Christ has risen are both valid Christian symbology. If one church uses one more and the other uses the other symbol more, why is one more Christian than the other? I am a good deal more Catholic than most of the 51% who voted for Obama, I am sure--I follow most of the rules of the Catholic church--yet out of my respect for the church (in part), I would not call myself a Catholic, because I am not willing to take on all the doctrines of that Church as my own.

Now you can go ahead and think that I am a counterfeit Christian and that I don't honor Jesus' sacrifice if you want, and you will be wrong. You can go ahead and think that if I enter heaven it will be only because of the grace given to the Catholic church, and that my faith is valid only insofar as it is based in the One True Church, and you may just be right, and you certainly have a right to believe that. But even if I am wrong, mocking me because my church does not have a crucifix is at least as counterproductive as mocking those who use bloody dolls to call attention to abortion.

Personally, I find SpongeBob disgusting, not an innocent symbol of childhood, so that one really irks me. I am reminded, though, of the campaign a while back which had war and land mines affecting the Smurfs, and turned out to be quite successful. So I can't say there is no validity to Keyes' strategy, though it is certainly not what I can do. I think it would be preferable to use a character who more clearly symbolizes innocence or perhaps a model of an actual fetal human being. I do think that the pictures would be more effective because they are real--I don't know how people can look at them and think this is okay. But I don't understand how people can think abortion is okay at all.

Maybe what I want is selfish.

I want my children to be recognized as human beings with rights from the time they are conceived, even if they die before they begin to look human. I don't want someone else to have to wonder if they may have killed their own child by taking a drug they were pressured to take by peers and mentors who did not know the danger and doctors who didn't tell the danger or offer alternatives even when asked for them. I don't want someone else to have her suspicions of early miscarriage ridiculed and ignored and not taken serious action on until she learns on her own that a simple pill could have saved her children. I don't want children who could have been my adopted sons or daughters to be killed because they were inconvenient to the woman carrying them. I don't want to bring my three-week-old daughter to a doctor in a plastic bag only to be told that the doctor won't see her and have nothing to do in the end but flush her down the toilet.

All this crap about how abortion doesn't affect people if they don't have one, about how wanted children are still perfectly valued in our society... well, it's crap. You can't expect that if an eight-week-old "unwanted" fetus (and let me tell you, I want him or her, if no one else is willing to) has no value and can be discarded, a two- or three-week-old embryo who is desperately loved and wanted will be respected and treated as a human being.

Posted by: YCW at May 11, 2009 7:36 AM


In truth he is a divider not a uniter, he a thief, he is a communist, he is a blasphemer and worst of all he is the world leader of the movement to kill innocent children in the womb.
Posted by: HisMan at May 10, 2009 11:36 AM

A thief and a communist? You get so bent out of shape when you percieve false claims being made against you, (stern warnings, etc) but you freely make false accusations against our President. Why do you hate America? You are free to disagree with Obama's policies, but any rational person would know he is not communist. I'm not sure why you label him a "thief" either. Taxes? We've had taxes for a long time.

Posted by: Hal at May 11, 2009 9:27 AM


I THANK GOD FOR ALLEN KEYS!!!!! MARY, PROTECT HIM!!!!! JESUS, GIVE HIM STRENGTH!!!!!

Posted by: Bernadette at May 11, 2009 10:00 AM


Terezia,

"Even animal rights activists don't get up in arms about veterinarians aborting a litter of puppies, for instance. "

Really? I've always wondered why we don't hear about animal abortions. Why don't we?

Posted by: Janet at May 11, 2009 10:23 AM


Janet, I'm no expert, but my guess is it's because of the support for population control.

Posted by: Terezia at May 11, 2009 10:28 AM


"I THANK GOD FOR ALLEN KEYS!!!!! MARY, PROTECT HIM!!!!! JESUS, GIVE HIM STRENGTH!!!!!"

Posted by: Bernadette at May 11, 2009 10:00 AM

Amen. He said himself that he didn't want Randall Terry to have to stand alone at ND. I believe it was a self-less, not self-aggrandizing act that led him to do what he did.

Posted by: Janet at May 11, 2009 10:40 AM


Ronald Reagan had a "commandment" not to speak ill of his fellow republicans. He conveyed an image of optimism and unity, and accomplished a good deal in the face of overwhelming odds.

A sincere pro-lifer or pacifist would see a bloodless end of the cold war as a significant success.

Time for pro-lifers to stop urinating in each others' gardens.

It's not effective.


Posted by: KB at May 11, 2009 10:52 AM


When Jesus ate with the Pharisees and criticized them for spiritual failings while doing it, wasn't that "bad taste", to criticize one's host? When John the Baptist called some of those coming to be baptized "vipers", wasn't that "bad taste", to be so "unloving"? The fear of offending "taste" is sometimes an excuse for our own timidity.

I watched the tape of Alan Keyes on the Notre Dame campus. It certainly looked orderly, sane and dignified to me. Ask yourself why this culture is so threatened by images, but not by the act itself. That is the breach these brave people are standing in.

Posted by: S Moore at May 11, 2009 12:07 PM


yllas, per Jill, you've now been banned.

Seems like that's what you were hoping for, anyway.

Posted by: Kel at May 11, 2009 1:00 PM


Hal,
Please understand that it goes beyond "disagreeing" with Obama for me. I won't be name calling him or wishing him harm. I do however get sick to my stomach thinking of my husband's and my tax dollars going to kill babies by abortion. You do understand that much at least right? I can hardly bear to think of it actually.

Posted by: Carla at May 11, 2009 1:29 PM


Terezia: the point is that gory pictures worked for animal rights activists - they generated sympathy for their cause.

Gory pictures of abortion instead seem to anger proaborts who react with in a stubborn and illogical manner - denying the truth of those pictures - that these are human babies that suffer greatly and whom are largely aborted for reasons of personal convenience. It's almost like they can't face the reality of what they advocate.

Posted by: angel at May 11, 2009 5:03 PM


Angel, 8:32a: The reason people accept photos of bloodied animals and turn on the killers while they reject photos of bloodied preborn babies and turn on the messengers is because so many people are complicit with abortion, either having had one, encouraged one, enabled one, or accepted one.
Posted by: Jill Stanek at May 11, 2009 7:00 AM

yes, with so many having been complicit in abortion I suppose they reject these pictures.

I guess after all, how many people have set out leg traps to kill an animal ( unless you are a farmer and then some people I know have devised electric traps which kill the animal immediately).

Posted by: angel at May 11, 2009 5:05 PM


I'm still wondering why no one decries animal abortions.

Are there no animal rights activists who are anti-abortion for animals?

Posted by: Janet at May 11, 2009 5:27 PM


Angel, 8:32a: The reason people accept photos of bloodied animals and turn on the killers while they reject photos of bloodied preborn babies and turn on the messengers is because so many people are complicit with abortion, either having had one, encouraged one, enabled one, or accepted one.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at May 11, 2009 7:00 AM------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This happens often. Some people see our signs and yell "I've got kids in the car!!"..Okay. Help us get rid of the abortion clinic, and we'll go home.

Posted by: heather at May 11, 2009 6:25 PM


heather,

"Some people see our signs and yell "I've got kids in the car!!".. Okay. Help us get rid of the abortion clinic, and we'll go home."

Amen!

Posted by: Janet at May 12, 2009 1:32 PM