Jon and Kate split

My husband and I, like many others, tuned in to Jon & Kate Plus Eight last night hoping People magazine was wrong yesterday when scooping the show that Jon and Kate were divorcing.

The promo was ominous, but we hoped we were in for a bait and switch. Would Kate really lend her voice to promote an episode announcing her marriage's demise? Did her concern for ratings really trump her concern for the welfare of her family?

Yes, we hoped Jon and Kate would instead announce they were seeking counseling or getting back together. I mean, it was less than a year ago when they renewed their vows in Hawaii...

jonkate.jpgAlas, and stupidly, the 2 announced they had filed papers for divorce Monday. I sensed Jon was the one who really wanted out. He likely had numerous voices in his ear (accurately) complaining of Kate's emasculating treatment. Kate appeared to have regrets; said she didn't want to be alone.

I got really tired of them both saying everything they did and do was "for the kids." If they were doing what was best for the kids they'd put a hold on the show and get counseling. This is all crazy. I feel very badly for their beautiful 8 children. I'm praying for that family.
Here's a recap of events from the Boston Herald:

The Gosselins' announcement raises new questions about the future of Jon & Kate, which, now in its 5th season, is TLC's most popular series.

But both parents say the show will continue, with their segments of the show filmed separately.

jon and kate 3.jpg

"Parents of multiples have triple the divorce rate," Kate explained during the record-setting season premiere. "I was thinking we were going to beat that...."

The couple, who have become megacelebs for their family struggles and alleged infidelities, have spent lots of time apart over the past month....

Trouble began brewing in the tabloids in February when photos surfaced of Jon partying with young women on a visit to see his ailing mother. The couple quickly attempted to quash rumors of problems.

But in May, the scandal erupted again when 23-year-old Deanna Hummel was photographed driving Jon's car home, and Kate Gosselin fought off allegations of an affair with a family bodyguard.

As a result of the couple's bad behavior, their TLC show has become must-see TV - nearly 10 million people tuned in to last month's season premiere, making it the most-watched cable TV show of the year.

[Top photo attribution: boston.com; bottom photo attribution: People]


Comments:

That's right, just hang your dirty laundry out there, who cares that 8 children don't need the exposure.

Posted by: carder at June 23, 2009 12:54 PM


This train wreck is a travesty for all involved despite the faults and flaws of the individuals who chose the put the lure of money and luxury before each other and their children.

The adults became hollow versions of themselves when the acts of parenting became only that, created senarios for the camera as opposed to actual authentic reactions and plans and adjustments required by the hard process of parenting and being a family, not a show.

Posted by: Sherry at June 23, 2009 1:05 PM


If Jon and Kate want to get the best marriage counseling in the world they should contact Leo Godzich at www.NameOnLIne.net .

Posted by: HisMan at June 23, 2009 1:11 PM


The Duggar family has 18 Children (no IVF's)...with deeply-rooted Christian faith coupled with responible and mature parenting.

Guess why Jon and Kate are splitting up and Jim Bob and Michelle are not?

Posted by: RSD at June 23, 2009 1:45 PM


Umm...because their religion says they HAVE to stay together, even if they're miserable?

I don't think you guys realize the kind of damage that staying in a bad marriage can do to your kids. Really, sometimes divorce is better. My husband's parents were never married, and they knew their relationship didn't and wouldn't work, but he turned out fine. I can only imagine what it must've been like to be raised in a family without parents at each other's throats every other day/one constantly belittling the other in a very harsh way all of the time. I'm sure it was wonderful.

Posted by: xalisae at June 23, 2009 2:11 PM


I honestly wonder what the divorce rate is for those that had multiples naturally versus those that had the multiples due to IVF or fertility treatments. I honestly believe it's similar to the rates of divorce amongst those couples that practice NFP (2%) versus contraception (50%) meaning that I'm sure it's lower in those couples that had multiples naturally versus those that had them due to IVF or fertility drugs.

However, the marriage isn't in the tank due to the kids. It's the parents. I was really hoping they'd announce they're canceling the show to focus on their marriage and family.

BTW... the Duggars work because they respect each other and communicate. Kate doesn't respect Jon (yes, that's my opinion) and he has grown to not respect her.

Posted by: Dirtdartwife at June 23, 2009 2:21 PM


I've seen no evidence that Michelle and Jim Bob are anything but happy.

On the other hand, I've never seen much evidence that Jon and Kate were ever happy.

Posted by: Lauren at June 23, 2009 2:22 PM


Umm...because their religion says they HAVE to stay together, even if they're miserable?

I don't think you guys realize the kind of damage that staying in a bad marriage can do to your kids. Really, sometimes divorce is better. My husband's parents were never married, and they knew their relationship didn't and wouldn't work, but he turned out fine. I can only imagine what it must've been like to be raised in a family without parents at each other's throats every other day/one constantly belittling the other in a very harsh way all of the time. I'm sure it was wonderful.

Posted by: xalisae

Counseling can help these families, if they work at it. I have seen it work. My dad was very abusive physically and emotionally. He got counseling and the change in him was great. I have also seen counseling work for married couples that you'd think would never work but it does.

Posted by: RooForLife at June 23, 2009 2:26 PM


Here's something interesting from The View today, in regards to children and divorce. Shocked the heck outta me:

Barbara Walters, who was the only person on the View panel who admitted to watching Jon & Kate, said that she thought that "if you have more than five children, you shouldn't be allowed to get divorced."

The audience applauded enthusiastically.

http://watching-tv.ew.com/2009/06/elizabeth-hasselbeck-kate-gosselin-the-view-.html

Posted by: Kel at June 23, 2009 2:27 PM


Dirtdartwife,
I was thinking the same thing. You can also add parents of very premature babies to the high divorce rate.
A high percentage of these symptoms are linked to abortion and dangerous contraceptives. Women have been maimed by abortion and impaired their fertility by many of the hormonal contraceptives. Many premature babies are born to post abortive women and they are the lucky ones that still were able to have a child. Many women seeking fertility treatments have had abortion in their past.
The Catholic Church has the best kept secret in the art of Natural Family Planning. It reveals why the teachings are what they are. Premarital sex, birth control, and abortion leads to dyfunctional marriages, prematurity for subsequent babies, STD's and the need to go to the fertility mills when it's time to have the "wanted" babies.

Posted by: muriel at June 23, 2009 2:31 PM


Roo, I agree. I've seen families bounce back after affairs...but only with true repentance, forgiveness and counseling.

I heard Jon say on TV today "I was tired of her ruling the roost and I finally put my foot down and I feel good about myself."

I rolled my eyes. These people are acting worse than children. It's just unbelievable. "She told me to do stuff and I said "no!" *insert foot stamp here* "So there! And I don't wanna be married to her anymore."

I mean, do they listen to themselves?? These are NOT unresolvable issues. Domestic violence and adultery are two very, VERY serious issues and situations where divorce is justified (my opinion), however, divorcing someone because you don't like the way she tells you what to do...?

Posted by: Kel at June 23, 2009 2:31 PM


Kel, the evidence seems to point to multiple affairs. That said, I agree it is absurd for someone to act like a child when they have 8 of their own children to care for.

I actually feel sorry for Kate. Though I definitely agree that she treated Jon poorly and emmasculated him, it seems as though she is really upset by the divorce while he is excited to go party.

Pretty pathetic.

Posted by: Lauren at June 23, 2009 2:39 PM


One more thing about the fertility mills...
Because of the mentality of the contraceptive/abortion culture, children have become viewed as commodities. It is the "all about me" mentality. It's not the right time, so I will wait and have my child latter when I am married. Also there are the women who don't need a father to have a child, they can buy the sperm donation at the mill to have their wanted baby after they are established in a career or whatever. Then they percieve their child as an entitlement.
Babies are blessings whether planned or unplanned. Women who rob themselves of the unplanned joy of motherhood because it was the wrong time, tend to try to make up down the road and be supermom. That may bring the unnatural circumstance of multiples/preemies or just the baggage from the past into the future marriage.
IMO, anyway you look at it, abortion is breaking down society in so many more ways than just the obvious ones.

Posted by: muriel at June 23, 2009 2:45 PM


Well, if they've had multiple affairs, then this was bound to happen.

Keeping the show alive, however, is not healthy for those kids. They're using the show for money at the expense of their children's emotional well-being.

But then, if they were thinking of their kids' well-being at all, there would not have been multiple affairs...they would have gotten counseling instead.

Posted by: Kel at June 23, 2009 2:47 PM


"Counseling can help these families, if they work at it. I have seen it work. My dad was very abusive physically and emotionally. He got counseling and the change in him was great."

That requires first that someone a.) acknowledge they have a problem, b.) be willing to seek help for it, c.) put forth the effort to create that change in themselves. This is RARE, and very few people will. If they're won't, at least think of the children, and the fact that kids probably shouldn't be exposed to that kind of behavior, and maybe the best option should be removing yourself to somewhere you can act civilly.

And as far as the Duggars go...I'm sure they have tight control in public, and when the cameras are on in their homes. When everyone is watching, it's easy to keep the kids in line. My dad excelled at it. It's keeping HIM in line when nobody is watching that's hard. I'm not saying they are definitively like this, I'm just saying that nobody can really tell what it's like there when the cameras are off.

Posted by: xalisae at June 23, 2009 2:52 PM


I never watched this show so I don't much about it.

I generally agree with the idea that it is not fair to children to put them in a reality show that focuses on intimate family issues, especially when there are family problems.

I think that generally it is best for children when their parents are in a happy partnership. But if their partnership is not happy, staying together "for the sake of the children" is not necessarily the right choice. In many situations, divorce is the best thing FOR the children.

The concept of Kate "emasculating" Jon is so wrong. Maybe she treated him disrespectfully -- in which I case I would disapprove of what she did. But the word "emasculation" implies that disrespectful treatment is worse when directed at a man.

Posted by: Prochoicer at June 23, 2009 2:54 PM


Wow, I actually agree with Banana. I'm going to go chop off my fingers now.

Posted by: xalisae at June 23, 2009 2:56 PM


pro-choicer, I disagree. Emasculating is generous. Were Jon saying the same things to Kate that she said to him, we would be saying that he was verbally abusive.

Posted by: Lauren at June 23, 2009 3:00 PM


Well, I like to think you can still be rational, reasonable, logical and pro-life as well. But don't get me wrong, because my emphasis tends to be on that last part, in most cases.

Posted by: xalisae at June 23, 2009 3:07 PM


There's a reason I prefer 18 Kids and Counting on TLC. I can't wait to see if Josh and Anna have a boy or a girl later this year.

I am very sad for the children.

I say cancel the show and get MARRIAGE COUNSELING.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at June 23, 2009 3:10 PM


For the record, NFP does not mean you are open to getting pregnant every time you have sex. It means you chart your body's own natural cycles and know when your fertile time is. If you want to avoid pregnancy, you avoid sex during the fertile times. It's really a pretty amazing thing.

And no, I'm not Catholic.

One does not have to be overtly religious to believe in working with one's own bodily systems rather than working against them.

Posted by: Kel at June 23, 2009 3:12 PM


"Then why don't we say Kate was verbally abusive?
By saying she emasculated him, it does sound a bit like it's not manly to have a disrespectful wife. Would we say he was making her less feminine if he treated her so disrespectfully. There is something to the comment I think."

Well, I think it's more a turn of phrase that has been adopted over the centuries than an accurate assessment of gender, but I do rather agree in that it's probably time to retire it, but I'm somewhat biased because I'm a pretty spunky and outspoken female who likes first person shooters, zombie movies, metal music, and hates traditional gender roles. :X

Posted by: xalisae at June 23, 2009 3:12 PM


There's a reason I prefer 18 Kids and Counting on TLC. I can't wait to see if Josh and Anna have a boy or a girl later this year.

I am very sad for the children.

I say cancel the show and get MARRIAGE COUNSELING.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at June 23, 2009 3:10 PM


Those people creep me out. They remind me of an exaggerated version of my family when I was growing up. I'm so glad I finally broke out of the mind control, as did my siblings, for the most part. I watched an episode where apparently one of the sons was getting ready to get married or something, and the couple was obsessed with hand-holding...it was very weird. They had some freaking hand-holding fetish. I don't think they realize that you might not be kissing or having sex, but it is possible to transfer the same eroticism over to another action (in this case hand-holding) and it doesn't make you any better or worse than the people who are kissing, you're just doing the same thing they are in a different way. But oh well, I guess it requires someone to actually have their own brain to understand stuff like this.

Posted by: xalisae at June 23, 2009 3:20 PM


Somehow when people are being murdered by their government
for their exercise of free speech, this triviality seems a bit hollow!

That said, this entire bunch will need therapy to recover from
the voyeuristic TV exploitation fest.

Everyone should rent the prophetic movie Network !

Posted by: Leslie Hanks at June 23, 2009 3:21 PM


If a man hits you once he will hit you again! I can't believe there are those who would recommend counseling in such a situation. It's not worth the risk for the victims. There should be zero tolerance for domestic violence IMO.

On another issue, Jon amd Kate didn't have IVF. Kate had PCOS, so she took meds to help her ovulate. This has nothing to do with age(she was about 25 at the time). Both of them were against abortion actually.

I have PCOS, and it has nothing to do with having abortions, using contraception to sleep around, or putting career ahead of family. Most women with it just have trouble ovulating and need a little help.

Posted by: Libertarian at June 23, 2009 3:21 PM


Kel,
Some people confuse NFP with the old rhythm method which it is not. It is also about being open to life, communication and the mutual respect for the gift of fertility in marriage. It can be used to achieve pregnancy in a natural way. It is much more than avoiding pregnancy. It builds strong marriages. If couples preparing for marriage take the class together, there would be a much lesser risk of divorce in their future.
Sorry Kel, I just wanted to differentiate the difference between NFP and rythym.
Anyone interested check out the couple to couple organization.

Posted by: muriel at June 23, 2009 3:26 PM


And Josh and Anna are having a girl.

Posted by: Libertarian at June 23, 2009 3:27 PM


X- It isn't fair to project your family's disfunction onto the Duggers. Nor is it fair to imply that anyone who "doesn't see it" is lacking a brain.

Obviously we don't know what goes on when the cameras are off, but the children all seem very happy and well adjusted. The same could not be said of Jon and Kate's 8.

Posted by: Lauren at June 23, 2009 3:31 PM


I don't think you guys realize the kind of damage that staying in a bad marriage can do to your kids. Really, sometimes divorce is better.

Posted by: xalisae at June 23, 2009 2:11 PM


No offense really xalisae but did your parents divorce? My parents did and it was horrible, MUCH worse than listening to them fight when they did. I can't even get into the damage it did to me and my brother and sisters. Even 20 years later and the death of my dad hasn't really put it to rest for any of us.

I know many kids from divorced parents and I have yet to meet even one who says they were better off. Frankly I have yet to meet one who didn't wish their parents would get back together.

In Jon and Kate's marriage, and I think in MOST divorces, it's because the parents are selfish. "Oh, he doesn't appreciate me." "She always nags." Give me a break. Unless it's physical or substance abuse there is no reason for divorce. Happiness is a CHOICE. Another person cannot give you happiness.

Posted by: Kristen at June 23, 2009 3:43 PM


Libertarian,
Sorry, I didn't mean to infer that Jon and Kate did, I was talking in general terms. To me having multiples unnaturally (meds or invitro,)is not the way Mother Nature intended.
As far as PCOS, pregnancy can be achieved by nutrition and diet. Many women regulate their cycle by following a diet much like a diabetic would. It takes diligence but the point I was trying to make is when you take the procreative natural act out of the picture to make babies artificially, it leads to problems.
If she took the ovary hyperstimulation meds (like clomid) it can raise the risk of breast cancer down the road. That is an unwanted side effect that women are also not truly informed about.

Posted by: muriel at June 23, 2009 3:45 PM


Diet modification generally only works for overweight women with PCOS. There is the option of diabetic drugs such as Avandia, but these are actually riskier than fertility drugs(which do not raise the risk of cancer it turns out) with a lower success rate. Besides, why is taking diabetic drugs not messing with nature while taking drugs to stimulate ovulation is? Wouldn't any drug be messing with nature by your logic? Not all medical issue can be solved with diet alone.

Posted by: Libertarian at June 23, 2009 3:51 PM


My mother the downer has been saying that this would happen for such a long time. I'm a glass-is-half-full kind of person in such situations, and I was so hoping for peace between the two and a good thing to heal their marriage.

But I really have no business commenting on their personal affairs. I hope that the cameras leave them alone- especially the poor children.

Posted by: Vannah at June 23, 2009 3:54 PM


My parents divorced when I was 4, and my only regret is that my mother didn't leave my father sooner. I'm so much happier now. My mom is happier. I have nightmares about their arguing. I'm so glad I got to spend most of my childhood in a much happier environment.

Posted by: Libertarian at June 23, 2009 3:56 PM


My husband was relieved when his parents got divorced (when he was 12). I spent my childhood wishing my parents would get divorced. Sometimes divorce is better.


Posted by: Prochoicer at June 23, 2009 4:11 PM


Libertarian,
I respectfully appreciate your view and stand corrected. I did not mean to infer that diet can correct all problems. However I disagree that fertility drugs carry no risk. I have 2 friends (one is a R.N.) both diagnosed with breast cancer a year ago. Both were asked by their oncologist if they were using HRT, had used hormonal birth control in their past, had an abortion or used fertility drugs. My friends had both used fertility drugs only and both of the doctors told them the breast cancer was likely from the fertility drugs.
I understand your point, but I can not dismiss the tampering of the female endocrine system with fertility drugs to be safe for women.

Posted by: muriel at June 23, 2009 4:14 PM


Honestly, I think the Duggars are doing their kids a disservice by keeping them in the spotlight, too.

The Gosselins need our prayers now. Kate needs to treat her husband like a man, and herself as God's treasure. Jon needs to treat himself like a man, and his wife like God's treasure. Instead, Job and Kate both act like Jon is a child and Kate is a bit**. And the constant media attention just reinforces that attitude.

Those poor children are going to be deeply affected by this whole experience, and not likely for the better. Having your parents divorce is difficult enough, but having them do so on national television? It's awful!

Not to mention the damage it does to the image of a family nationwide.

And the Duggars, well, yes they are putting a great image for the camera, which may or may not be accurate. I don't know them, I don't know if it's accurate or not. But they're putting their children out there for the world to watch, and it's usury. It usury of their children for attention and money, and it's wrong.

I can't watch any of those shows. It just hurts to see.

Lord, watch over those little children. In Your wisdom, give them examples of normalcy and stability throughout their lives. Keep them in your sight, and guide their lives, Lord.

Posted by: MaryRose at June 23, 2009 4:26 PM


X- It isn't fair to project your family's dysfunction onto the Duggers. Nor is it fair to imply that anyone who "doesn't see it" is lacking a brain.

Obviously we don't know what goes on when the cameras are off, but the children all seem very happy and well adjusted. The same could not be said of Jon and Kate's 8.
Posted by: Lauren at June 23, 2009 3:31 PM

I didn't say they were probably just like my family. I said that they remind me of how my family used to be. That is a fact, they DO remind me of my family, I'm not projecting anything. They could be quite different, and I believe I stated that plainly in my comment " I'm not saying they are definitively like this...". And I didn't say they didn't have ANY brains...just not being allowed to use their own. "...actually have THEIR OWN brain to understand stuff like this." I don't think this family lets their children do their own thinking, and I think that's not only dangerous, but just plain wrong, at least when their kids reach adulthood and start their own courtships. "...but the children all seem very happy and well adjusted." Not from what I saw. Any young ADULT that is getting ready for MARRIAGE, for pete's sake, should not be so obsessed with the act of hand-holding. They didn't look like they were getting ready to get married, the acted like they were preparing for jr. prom. This isn't well-adjusted, it looked more like stunted emotional growth to me.

Posted by: xalisae at June 23, 2009 4:34 PM


I have never watched this show, nor do I plan to. However snanning the magazines while waiting in line at the grocery store almost every tabloud has them on the cover.

Allegations of adultry by both of them do not help. I think those could be seriously messed up kids before too long. If they are really so concerned for the kids the show should be cancelled. However, I'm betting it won't. It's too big a cash cow for TLC and of course for Jon and Kate.

Kate complains often about how her privacy has been invaded. Hello? Why did you agree to do a reality show in the first place?

Posted by: Joanne at June 23, 2009 4:38 PM


No Banana,
I did not say from birth control.
Many times cancer patients are asked about their family medical history and other risk factors are asked as well. I did not say from their birth control. With both of my friends, there was no family history but they did undergo fertility treatments through drugs. The fact that some oncologists ask these questions is disturbing to me. Obviously, they see a pattern but other doctors do not acknowledge it.

Posted by: muriel at June 23, 2009 4:43 PM


To bring up a point I haven't seen anyone else mention, there's a LOT of money involved here. The show pays to clothe, feed, and shelter the entire family. Neither of the adults have a job. They're under contract and without the money the show affords them right now, they wouldn't be able to support themselves. I'm not saying I approve of it in the first place, because I think it's ridiculous, but at this point they do have to take into account their contractual obligations if only for financial purposes.

Posted by: Erin at June 23, 2009 4:45 PM


Here is some research that puts any risk in perspective:
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2009/02February/Pages/Fertilitydrugsandcancer.aspx

Not having any children and not breastfeeding does raise the risk of cancer, so even if there were a tiny increased risk I don't see it as being important. I personally am not going to live my life worrying I might get cancer in 30 years. Heart disease is a much more real concern to me anyway(It kills more American than ALL of the cancers combined). I would rather have kids than live to be 100 anyway.

Besides, what does fertility drugs having risks have them being morally wrong and the result of an immoral lifestyle like is being suggested here? My acne medication has more serious side effects.

Posted by: Libertarian at June 23, 2009 4:53 PM


Erin,

This is true.
However, both Jon and Kate have worked in the past. And I think the amount of money has a LOT to do with why they're staying on camera.

I sympathize, to an extent. Jon and Kate must have been at somewhat of a loss for how to afford so many kids before TLC pitched this idea. They must have jumped on it like white on rice. Enough income not to ever have to worry about bills. And all they have to do is let some cameras follow them around. Sounds like a sweet deal.

And they likely thought they were making the best choice for their family.

But they were putting their children in the limelight, all the time. And at some point, long before now, they should have realized that it was too damaging. They should have found alternatives.

My parents have 9. The most they've had to support at one time is 8. Neither of them has a degree. No associates, no bachelor's. My dad has about 2 years equivalent of college. My mom might have about a year equivalent in outdoor sports courses.

They have managed to support their children, and send them all to private schooling. And when I was living with them, they had a 1600 sq ft house. It was tiny, for all of us. But we love that house.

And let me tell you, my parents are no financial whizzes.

It is quite possible for Jon and Kate to figure this out financially. It is a testament to their characters that they haven't tried.

Posted by: MaryRose at June 23, 2009 5:00 PM


Banana, before I had my son, I was having trouble getting pregnant (my daughter and son are 5+ years apart), and my husband and I went to all kinds of doctors, had all kinds of tests done, and ultimately, they found I had a thyroid problem and I was given a prescription for clomid. My doctor didn't tell me there was any risk associated with it.

Posted by: xalisae at June 23, 2009 5:08 PM


Xalisae,
Clomid is handed out almost like candy at times. It's amazing to me how rarely doctors mention the risks associated with all sorts of prescriptions.

Posted by: MaryRose at June 23, 2009 5:11 PM


That's why I'm glad I didn't get it filled, MaryRose. ;)

Posted by: xalisae at June 23, 2009 5:17 PM


I was also nearly given Clomid.

My doctor decided to chart one cycle first. I became pregnant during that cycle, but miscarried. He was ready with the Clomid the next month, but I wasn't. About 6 months later I got pregnant naturally. My kids are a little over 3 years apart.

Posted by: Lauren at June 23, 2009 5:24 PM


Glad to hear the NON-Clomid success stories :)

Posted by: MaryRose at June 23, 2009 5:29 PM


Well, I figured if it was going to happen, it'd happen, and if not, I could just focus on my daughter, and start my education back up again. Go figure the minute I decided it would be ok not to have another kid, he came around. :P

Posted by: xalisae at June 23, 2009 5:34 PM


x,
Isn't that just telling? Once you relax about it, that's when it all falls into place, lol.

Or when you least expect it.

Or both.

:)

Clomid has its place, I suppose, and it has its success stories. I just wish there were less of an attitude of, "Oh, women'll figure it out" and more informing about what's going on!

But I'm pretty sure you know that about me from our BC debate ;)

Posted by: MaryRose at June 23, 2009 5:41 PM


I personally would not use Clomid. It's a waste of money IMO. I would go straight to injectables. The success rate is much higher. A lot of doctors don't even prescribe it.

Posted by: Libertarian at June 23, 2009 5:59 PM


Xalisae, a few comments... as a mom of a large family, who homeschools and is very familiar with both the homeschooling methods and curriculum used by the Duggars and, through it, the Duggars and their family... you couldn't be more wrong about them. They really ARE a very happy family.

Also, they were debt free and had independent businesses that supported their family before they were approached to do the shows. While the Gosselins seem to have seen the shows as a way to support their family, the Duggars saw the shows as a ministry and outreach project. Very different mindsets from very different families.

You may not see the projection occurring... but that doesn't mean you aren't projecting a wee bit in the case of the Duggars. Trust me, Michelle Duggar has QUITE a brain of her own... it's one of my favorite ones to go to for advice.

I am so happy for Josh and Anna...

Posted by: Elisabeth at June 23, 2009 8:13 PM


Who are these people and what makes them any more news worthy than any of the other 50% of American marriages that end in divorce?

This is not 'news'.

It is just one more episode of the Jerry Springer/Maury Povich/Dr Phil/Oprah Winfrey/Dr. Laura 'soap opera'.

My life has enough grief of it's own without vicariously incorporating the dysfunctions of other failures in this adventure we call matrimony.

I will weep for the dearly departed tomorrow. I do not have time or energy today.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at June 23, 2009 8:19 PM


This is a very severe warning given by the Lord about divorce, especially to husbands:

Malachi 2:16
"I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.

God is saying here that by divorcing his wife a man is covering himself with violence. This exposes him, his wife and his family to all kinds of bad stuff.

Divorce is never the answer, reconciliation is; and it takes a real man to humble himself even if he know he's right.

It is much better to become a real man, realize that you are responsible for your family, that you are the leader and priest of your home, stop thinking about yourself and give yourself up for your wife.

This is the godly model.

Besides, God did not create marriage to make us happy but to make us holy. Therefore, even if we get divorced, we will never truly find happiness in another marriage.

It's a spiritual law just like the law that says if you shed innocent blood your own blood will be shed.

Mr. Gosselin I hope you are listening. Here's a shot at a reconciled marriage:

Leo Godzich www.NameOnLine.net

If anyone knows Mr. Gosselin, please send him this link.

Posted by: HisMan at June 23, 2009 8:24 PM


Well, Elizabeth, the proof is in the pudding, and I stand by my former statement:

"Any young ADULT that is getting ready for MARRIAGE, for pete's sake, should not be so obsessed with the act of hand-holding. They didn't look like they were getting ready to get married, the acted like they were preparing for jr. prom. This isn't well-adjusted, it looked more like stunted emotional growth to me."

Posted by: xalisae at June 23, 2009 8:43 PM


Kel,
Some people confuse NFP with the old rhythm method which it is not. It is also about being open to life, communication and the mutual respect for the gift of fertility in marriage. It can be used to achieve pregnancy in a natural way. It is much more than avoiding pregnancy. It builds strong marriages. If couples preparing for marriage take the class together, there would be a much lesser risk of divorce in their future.
Sorry Kel, I just wanted to differentiate the difference between NFP and rythym.
Anyone interested check out the couple to couple organization.
Posted by: muriel at June 23, 2009 3:26 PM
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No problem, muriel. A lot of people have the misconception that they are the same thing.

I've been able to conceive two out of three times now by watching for my fertile times due to the books I've read on NFP. Helpful for me in that case, as my cycle is very, very irregular.

I agree that it is about much more than preventing pregnancy. However, I've known couples who have been able to "time" their children by using NFP. WOOMB (http://www.woomb.org/bom/index.html also has information on NFP.

Posted by: Kel at June 23, 2009 8:57 PM


Guess what... I get just as giddy holding MY husband's hand. We hold hands everywhere we go and yes, I ADORE it. Why is it stunted emotional growth to not be blase about small acts of love? Oh, yeah, I forgot... they should be like all the other kids out there who have had sex so many times that they get no thrill out of holding their future spouse's hand....

Since they have a baby on the way, obviously, they weren't held back from marital relations due to their "stunted emotional growth"....

Personally, I think it is more of a stunting of emotional growth to be so unable to see young love and joy that isn't jaded by premature sexuality.

Posted by: Elisabeth at June 23, 2009 9:00 PM


Xalisae, it may look like stunted emotional growth, but it isn't necessarily. Some kids and families are very, very serious about remaining physically pure before marriage, and go to extremes to avoid anything beyond hand holding.

I do agree with your statement earlier, though: I don't think they realize that you might not be kissing or having sex, but it is possible to transfer the same eroticism over to another action (in this case hand-holding) and it doesn't make you any better or worse than the people who are kissing, you're just doing the same thing they are in a different way.

Posted by: Kel at June 23, 2009 9:11 PM


I find it very disturbing that anyone would put their life on TV. It beggars belief.

Posted by: Louise at June 23, 2009 9:27 PM


Yes, and I think people are missing my point. It's not what they were doing, but their attitude. Whether they're kissing, hand-holding, or having sex, I think their giddy, giggly attitude is a little immature when you're talking about something so severe as marriage, and I think that's part of the problem with the divorce rate being so high. But I'm a cynic, so I will say I have a certain bias about this issue. I hope they grow up together in a way that brings them closer rather than drives them apart.

Posted by: xalisae at June 23, 2009 9:38 PM


xalisae,
I don't think the young Duggar boy and his fiance cared about appearing better than anyone else. It was somewhat surprising to see the innocence of their relationship compared to what we normally see on TV today, but I found it refreshing as well. I'd be surprised if they had to do it again that they'd handle their physical relationship any differently. I'm sure they'll be asked that question in the future.

Posted by: Janet at June 23, 2009 9:40 PM


"Whether they're kissing, hand-holding, or having sex, I think their giddy, giggly attitude is a little immature when you're talking about something so severe as marriage, and I think that's part of the problem with the divorce rate being so high."

Xalisae,

Their giggles may have been more a result of having cameras recording their every move, than immaturity. You know how some people laugh inappropriately when they are nervous? Who knows... I hope they're happy. :)

Posted by: Janet at June 23, 2009 9:45 PM


I certainly hope they have a long and happy life together, too. :)

Posted by: xalisae at June 23, 2009 10:00 PM


Let me clarify. I agree with this part of your statement: I don't think they realize that you might not be kissing or having sex, but it is possible to transfer the same eroticism over to another action (in this case hand-holding)...

I tend to think that it's not the giggly, swoony romantic attitude that makes the divorce rate high--it's the expectation that love is always supposed to be at that particular stage. But it isn't...it deepens and matures over time, unless one or both parties is looking for that same "romantic, giddy high" that they had at first.

I've seen many relationships ruined because sex became the focus before marriage, which left them no room to build a lasting friendship. It's that friendship and deep love that will be there after the giddy feelings have faded.

Posted by: Kel at June 23, 2009 10:10 PM


Not to mention... aren't brides SUPPOSED to be excited? Aren't grooms supposed to be giddy in love looking at their future wives? How sad to view this as stunted... they were excited (and frankly, Josh was pretty down to earth... he's more used to the cameras though)... how very sad and jaded one would have to be to see anything wrong with how two young people were giddy in love with the person they were about to marry.

Posted by: Elisabeth at June 23, 2009 10:34 PM


Other things besides sex can become a focus and interfere with a relationship, but for the most part, yeah, I think you're right.

Posted by: xalisae at June 23, 2009 10:36 PM


[b]"Besides, what does fertility drugs having risks have them being morally wrong and the result of an immoral lifestyle like is being suggested here? My acne medication has more serious side effects."[/b]Fertility drugs (and birth control) is an attempt to side step God in His plans. He didn't make all couples fertile and children aren't rights nor entitlements, they're blessings.

And anything that would severely increase a woman's hormones to make them operate in a highly unnatural state (birth control, fertility treatments, HRT, etc) has been linked to breast cancer. There's more studies to prove this and a simple google search will work.

While I haven't found any proof, I still believe that having multiples unnaturally (by using any form of fertility treatments) is what will cause a couple to divorce. To me, I can't get past the idea that there is a slight contraceptive mentality still stuck in there because they're using the drugs to have just one child, not alot. When couples have multiples naturally (not using fertility treatments), I really think there is more of an acceptance mentality and it's so much easier to see how God had a hand in it, not a drug. Yes, God creates all children, but to try to take control from Him is another story.

I agree with those that said this marriage needs counseling. When two *ADULTS* behave like humble adults, then it can work. But when these grown up children refuse to behave like adults, then they're going to crumble and only the real children will suffer. You can't tell me Kate has shielded those children from everything... they can read so when they go to the store, they've had to see some of the trash in print.

Posted by: Dirtdartwife at June 23, 2009 11:26 PM


I would have been giddy beyond belief if I had been a virgin marrying another virgin.

Posted by: Carla at June 24, 2009 7:04 AM


I don't think any of us know exactly what's going on with them. I have personally been through divorce, and although not a Christian at the time, I was very adament that marriage was forever. My husband was addicted to porn and internet relationships for the 4 years we were married. He finally left me for a co-worker and I had to take the step of filing for divorce for "peace and resolution". Kate claims to be a believer and we are told in 1 Timothy to "Honor all men, love the brethren, fear God, and honor the king." Let's pray for this family - it's never too late.

Posted by: SIMZ at June 24, 2009 7:18 AM


SIMZ,
I am sorry about what you have been through. I know several couples who have husbands addicted to porn and they are getting help and staying together. Also know at least 3 that have had affairs and are still together after much time in counseling. Of course, one spouse has to be willing to seek help. Nothing is impossible with God.

I join you in praying for their marriage.

Posted by: Carla at June 24, 2009 8:28 AM


Not even the Catholic church sees fertility drugs as a part of the "contraceptive mentality". They allow the their use.

Posted by: Libertarian at June 24, 2009 9:27 AM


I would have been giddy beyond belief if I had been a virgin marrying another virgin.

Posted by: Carla at June 24, 2009 7:04 AM

I probably would've been scared ----less and been contemplating making a run for it. Knowing then what I know now, I would've had good reason to be. I'm glad I wasn't a virgin when I got married, and through experience I learned what to look for in a physical relationship.

Posted by: xalisae at June 24, 2009 12:51 PM


I would have been giddy beyond belief if I had been a virgin marrying another virgin.

Posted by: Carla at June 24, 2009 7:04 AM

I probably would've been scared ----less and been contemplating making a run for it. Knowing then what I know now, I would've had good reason to be. I'm glad I wasn't a virgin when I got married, and through experience I learned what to look for in a physical relationship.
Posted by: xalisae at June 24, 2009 12:51 PM
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Well, I wasn't scared ****less. :D We were both virgins. We weren't giddy, necessarily, either...but we sure were excited! lol "Finally!" :D And I have no regrets. :) I am one amazingly blessed woman.

I was attracted to my husband physically, and he to me. That was pretty much all I needed to know about what I was looking for in a physical relationship. Things weren't awkward for us, either. I think people have that misconception sometimes about virgins.

It's SO not true.

Posted by: Kel at June 24, 2009 1:04 PM


Carla: not only does the spouse who needs help want to be willing to get it, but both spouses need to be willing to work at their marriage. If one person decides the marriage is over, there is likely no hope, given current divorce laws.
I just hope they cancel the TV show for the sake of those children.

Posted by: angel at June 24, 2009 1:15 PM


Well, all I have to go on with things like that is personal experience. My first time was terrible, I was scared, it hurt, and I didn't even know what an orgasm was let alone have one. If I had married the man I had my first sexual encounter with, I probably still wouldn't to this day-even though I loved him very much. I'm very happy with how my life has worked out. I'm glad I had the past experiences I have, good and bad, and glad I have the frame of reference with which to judge certain things so that I have the wonderful relationship with my husband I do today. I was tickled pink to be marrying my husband on the day we wed, but I'm also glad we didn't enter into the thing with false ideas of how blissful wedded bliss really is.

Posted by: xalisae at June 24, 2009 1:36 PM


I'm also glad we didn't enter into the thing with false ideas of how blissful wedded bliss really is.
Posted by: xalisae at June 24, 2009 1:36 PM
**************************************

I think this is another reason why people divorce so frequently...they have no clue that marriage takes work! Premarital counseling helped us tremendously to see things in a very realistic way.

Posted by: Kel at June 24, 2009 1:40 PM


xalisae and other parents, I just saw this posted:

http://www.parentalrights.org/index.asp?Type=NONE&SEC={520635A0-D52D-4DA9-8AE7-CA574A3228F0}

Obama admin is now beginning to push for the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. :(

Posted by: Kel at June 24, 2009 1:43 PM


Sorry, angel. I think that is what I meant. Takes both to WANT to seek help. :)

Posted by: Carla at June 24, 2009 1:47 PM


Over my dead body will some disgraceful failure like the U.N. usurp MY parental rights to raise MY children as I see fit. I wouldn't let a U.N. council raise a kitten, let alone my kids.

Posted by: xalisae at June 24, 2009 2:31 PM


X, I've been trying to call the phone numbers at that link I posted, but the WH's comment line appears to be a bit busy at the moment...

I think all hell will break loose if this thing passes. Supposedly all other countries except the US and Somalia have ratified it. It makes me ill just thinking about it...

Posted by: Kel at June 24, 2009 2:41 PM


Sorry for the off-topic posts. Back to your regularly scheduled program on the drama of Jon & Kate. ;)

Posted by: Kel at June 24, 2009 2:42 PM


I called the AR senators today and voiced my concerns via message. I don't think it will help, but it might if I start getting other people out there to start doing the same. I might join the PTA once we get settled and start spreading the news.

Posted by: xalisae at June 24, 2009 11:07 PM


"Kate needs to treat her husband like a man, and herself as God's treasure. Jon needs to treat himself like a man, and his wife like God's treasure."

Here's an idea Mary Rose, why don't they just treat each other with respect like people. Kate isn't a treasure, she isn't an object she is a person.

Women aren't just decorative baby making items.

Posted by: A Woman at June 27, 2009 4:53 PM


A Woman,
I'm confused. Where did I say women were decorated baby making items? Or bring baby making into the agenda at all?

I wasn't referring to women as objects, quite the opposite. God's treasure, I said. As in, someone God cherishes. If anything, it sounds upon re-reading as though I was calling Jon less than he is, and Kate all-important.

My point was that they both need to treat each other with dignity. In the media, Jon has treated Kate as a controlling domineering b**** and Kate has treated on without the respect that her husband deserves and needs.

I used the wording I did because of their individual behaviors. I'm sorry if this offended you or came off wrong. I do not mean in any way that women are only the sum of their baby making. I meant QUITE the opposite.

Posted by: MaryRose at June 27, 2009 6:07 PM