Late-term abortionist Carhart wants to continue Tiller's "mission"

From the Associated Press, June 2:

carhart news conference.jpg

Physician LeRoy Carhart wants to continue providing third-term abortions after the brazen slaying of his friend and colleague George Tiller, but the NE doctor doesn't have anywhere to perform them - and he's one of only a handful of providers who will....

Carhart, 67, is one of a handful of remaining doctors in the United States who perform third-trimester abortions....

Ok, blech, let me pause here and say third trimester abortions are never medically necessary....

The 3rd trimester begins at 28 weeks, when over 90% of healthy babies survive. It is just as easy if not easier and safer to deliver a late-term baby rather than abort. Not once in this long article on the topic of late-late-term abortions was the question addressed, "Why?" Continuing this advocacy piece on the killing of viable babies:

Carhart, a vocal abortion rights advocate who has been at the epicenter of the debate on what abortion foes call partial-birth abortions, first met Tiller more than 20 years ago and began working at the Wichita clinic a decade ago. He said he regularly traveled to KS for a few days every third week. He only performs third-term abortions at Tiller's clinic...,.

The former Air Force surgeon also operates his own clinic, Abortion & Contraception Clinic of Nebraska, in a nondescript building in a working-class neighborhood of Bellevue, an Omaha suburb. But he said he doesn't perform abortions past the 22nd week of pregnancy there.

Let's take a station break to view photos of Carhart's "nondescript building," taken in March 2009 on the day it reopened following refurbishment after a fire (NOT blamed on pro-lifers). It was almost immediately shut down because Carhart reopened without getting an occupancy permit, as I previously reported, and was running his electricity off a generator...

carhart clinic 1.jpg

carhart clinic 2.jpg

carhart clinic 3.jpg

Continuing the article:

The type of late-term abortions performed by Tiller, Carhart and the handful of others are rare.... Less than 2% of abortions occur at 21 weeks of pregnancy or later, according to Guttmacher Institute, a reproductive-health think tank. It is unknown how many are done specifically in the third trimester, but Carhart said 75 to 100 of the "several thousand" abortions he performs annually are in the third trimester.

Abortion rights advocates also worry the group of physicians who can provide the service is dwindling.

"There are very, very few abortions that happen at that time," said Nancy Northrup, president of the Center for Reproductive Rights, who said she worries about a "severe shortage" of physicians who can perform the procedure. "People who need those services need caring and compassionate and qualified doctors like Dr. Tiller who are able to provide those services."

With Tiller's death, there are fewer than 10 doctors who perform third-trimester abortions in the United States, Carhart estimated, and though he has worked with younger physicians before, he hasn't trained any abortion providers in third-trimester techniques for at least five years.

That's because not only is there no need for third-trimester abortions, no self-respecting bonafide doctor would step foot in Carhart's filthy mill. Continuing on:

warren hern.jpg

Another doctor who performs third-trimester abortions, 70-year-old Warren Hern of Boulder, CO, said he's also concerned there won't be enough doctors trained to perform abortions in the future. Hern is an associate clinical professor at the University of CO-Denver School of Medicine, but he said he hasn't been asked to speak on the topic of abortion at the school in 21 years....

Hern, who is being protected by U.S. Marshals following Tiller's killing, said many medical schools shy away from teaching about abortion and doctors don't want to learn about it....

Another station break. Hern is the guy who grandiosely and delusionally told the Los Angeles Times on June 1 " he was now 'the only doctor in the world' who performed very late-term abortions...."

About late-term abortions, Hern also wrote in a paper presented to Planned Parenthood abortionists in 1978, "We have reached a point in this particular technology where there is no possibility of denial of an act of destruction by the operator. It is before one's eyes. The sensation of dismemberment flows through the forceps like an electric current."

How totally bizarre. Continuing the AP piece:

A day after Tiller was shot, Carhart vowed to reopen his friend's KS clinic and continue Tiller's mission. But on Tuesday, Tiller's family said there were no plans to reopen. Carhart said he remains hopeful that Tiller's family will change their minds. If not, he hopes another abortion provider will open a clinic in KS where he can work part-time.

For Carhart, the dispute over abortion is personal. In 1991, his family's rural home burned in a fire apparently started by an abortion foe....

On that last paragraph, "apparently" - says Carhart. No one was ever apprehended or prosecuted.

I've pulled excerpts, but this entire article is worth reading to gain a fuller understanding that MSM has seized upon Tiller's murder to lionize late-term abortionists. So have pro-aborts. It can't get much more bizarre than this, by RH Reality Check's Amie Newman, in a June 1 column entitled "The circle continues: Dr. Carhart takes on Tiller's practice." (Funny, and speaking of lions, when I hear "circle of..." I think of the Lion King's "circle of life." Whoops, not so here.)

In this piece Newman repeated a presumptive statement Carhart made to the Omaha World-Herald the day of TIller's murder that "he said he was en route to Wichita to run Tiller's clinic for at least the next week." What a hero, but whoops, it didn't happen.

Anyway, get out the violins. Wrote Newman:

amie.jpg

Never mind, of course, the children. Pro-lifers love them both. Pro-aborts can't.

[HT: Sonia Dalton and Leslie Hanks; attribution for photo of Carhart: AP; for photos of Carhart's mill: Dr-Tiller.com]


Comments:

This is a great piece, Jill.

Wow, Carhart's mill looks like a hellhole...

Posted by: Kel at June 3, 2009 9:32 AM


"There are very, very few abortions that happen at that time," said Nancy Northrup, president of the Center for Reproductive Rights"

Didn't George Tiller admit to/brag about having killed
60,000?

Posted by: Leslie Hanks at June 3, 2009 9:43 AM



A nondescript building? Now that's what I call being charitable. I wonder if illegal abortionists were ever described as running their businesses out of "nondescript" buildings.

Are those "port a potties" I see in the parking lot? I know the place got its electrical power from a generator but outhouses?

Hey, nothing but the best for you ladies.

I would say it looks like a stolen car chopshop but even car thieves have higher standards.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 9:45 AM


Kel,

It IS a hellhole. It IS a little piece of hell.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at June 3, 2009 9:48 AM


This is worth saying again and again and again.

Third trimester abortions are NEVER medically necessary.

Posted by: Carla at June 3, 2009 9:52 AM


This is the literal, back-alley abortion of the legal kind.

Could someone who works in a hospital answer this? Why would a hospital doctor refuse to perform a late-term abortion on a deformed fetus? If the ultrasound revealed a deformity so heart-breaking and the child had a near-zero chance of survival outside the womb, would the hospital find someone willing to kill the child since it might fit within their standards as an "emergency?"

If that is the case, the idea that Tiller and others are performing "life-saving" procedures makes no sense. Because if these fetal conditions were so dire, wouldn't the hospital have taken care of it rather than shoving the woman out the door?

Posted by: Cranky Catholic at June 3, 2009 10:08 AM


Trust women indeed! How about take advantage of women for profit!

Posted by: Maria at June 3, 2009 10:14 AM


Less than 2% of abortions, Guttmacher says? There are what now, 1.3M abortions a year in the US? Less than 2% is less than 26,000 late term abortions. Wow. Something to be proud of - NOT!

Posted by: Kyleen Wright at June 3, 2009 10:15 AM


Carhart is ONE SICK MAN. He is doing the work of the Devil. I wouldn't trust that man to do dental work on me, let alone deliver (not abort) a baby!

Third trimester abortions are NOT NECESSARY.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at June 3, 2009 10:21 AM


How do those people sleep at night? Can't they see thousands of little, dead bodies with crushed heads? Do they NOT see that what they are doing is murder?!?!

Posted by: Ashley at June 3, 2009 10:21 AM


Sounds like Carhart is just as grandiose and delusional as Hern.

Posted by: Keith at June 3, 2009 10:27 AM


Be careful, Ashley, we're not allowed to call Abortion "murder" according to those who are on the pro choice side. *face rolling eyes*


Posted by: LizFromNebraska at June 3, 2009 10:31 AM


taxpayer funded NPR inteviewed Warren Hern yesterday, they pretty much kissed his behind.

The MSM are on the pro-aborts side, no doubt about it. After all, they are pro-aborts themselves.

Posted by: Jasper at June 3, 2009 10:44 AM


The tragedy of the above photo's is that we as a society have not given women any better "choice" for dealing with crisis pregnancies.

The fact that women have to go to a dump like this, and to a deranged sociopath to eliminate "the problem" is a sad commentary on how we have so little respect for life and make abortion the easy way out.

We have reached that lowest possible point where EVERYTHING is now "disposable"...including life itself...at any stage, for any reason...for any price.

God help us.

Posted by: Mike at June 3, 2009 11:01 AM


As a building inspection engineer, I can tell you that the building's parking area does not appear to meet any minimum standards for the American's with Disability's Act.

There does not appear any striped parking areas delineated for handicapped parking nor any that are marked with the proper signage. Further, the pavement and sidewalks (flat work) appear to be in disrepair and very rough and not flat.

If the building was designed, constructed, or altered with Federal funds the it must comply with ADA requirements. Also, because it's a two story building any services offered that are paid for with Federal funds and are done on the second floor must be handicap accessible, i.e., there must be an ADA approved elevator. This would cost about $50,000 or more to install.

See this: http://www.ada.gov/cguide.htm#anchor66055

"The Architectural Barriers Act (ABA) requires that buildings and facilities that are designed, constructed, or altered with Federal funds, or leased by a Federal agency, comply with Federal standards for physical accessibility. ABA requirements are limited to architectural standards in new and altered buildings and in newly leased facilities. They do not address the activities conducted in those buildings and facilities. Facilities of the U.S. Postal Service are covered by the ABA. For more information or to file a complaint, contact:

U.S. Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board
1331 F Street, N.W., Suite 1000
Washington, D.C. 20004-1111

www.access-board.gov

(800) 872-2253 (voice)
(800) 993-2822 (TTY)"

At a minimum, the local code authorities,
http://www.bellevue.net/code%20enforcement.html

could shut him down since, depending on the scope of the remodel, they could have required that the entire building be brought up to current codes and ordinances.

The link I referenced has a statement about inoperable vehicles being parked is not allowed, for example. Call this guy: Chief Building Official, Steve Carmichael, 402-293-3015 steve.carmichael@bellevue.net

Any one who lives down there can file a complaint with the code jurisdiction officials down there. They would then have to investigate.

If the city of Bellevue didn't comply I would then go the the State of Nebraska's Attorney General office. Just looking at Bellevue's website tells me that this is a backwater town. It's pathetic. I wouldn't doubt that there's some payola going on. I say go after everybody.

Finally, I will pray for Dr. Carhart as I prayed for Dr. Tiller. I really hope he stops doing what he's doing soon.

Posted by: HisMan at June 3, 2009 11:07 AM


I take these statements with a grain of salt, although this is revealing (emphasis mine):

...Carhart estimated, and though he has worked with younger physicians before, he hasn't trained any abortion providers in third-trimester techniques for at least five years.
Hern is an associate clinical professor at the University of CO-Denver School of Medicine, but he said he hasn't been asked to speak on the topic of abortion at the school in 21 years...

Either the author is outright lying or Carhart and Hern are being completely avoided by those who are studying to practice abortion. Hern is the author of the standard textbook on the practice. From Hern's own website (skip visiting the site - it's got an asian web-virus):

In 1988, he received his Ph.D. in Epidemiology from the University of North Carolina School of Public Health. He is the author of Abortion Practice, the first and only single-author medical textbook concerning abortion, which was first published in 1984 and which remains in print.

It would be nice to know current sales volume of the book, as well as what alternatives are used and taught in medical schools.

Are Carhart, Hern & Tiller avoided by medical schools due to pro-life education about late-term abortion or are they considered dinosaurs by the abortion industry because medical technology advanced way past their understanding of late term abortion practice?

Or have things now moved to the point where induced labor and external "fetal demise" is now the accepted practice?

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at June 3, 2009 11:10 AM


Carhart's button should read "Trust Me".

Posted by: carder at June 3, 2009 11:10 AM


Speaking of Tiller, the best article I have seen so far on the subject of the morality of his killing can be found at:

www.christorchaos.com

Clixk on "Reichstag II" on June 1.

Posted by: Joe at June 3, 2009 11:13 AM


Well said Mike.
The angry pro-choice women libbers of the 60's and 70's that fought for this choice.... I hope they are proud of themselves. As long as women are kept in the dark as to the after effects and dangers of abortion,it is still a man's world. Hopefully the young authentic feminists of the future can enlighten and prevent women to be exploited by these mill providers. I refuse to call them doctors.

Posted by: muriel at June 3, 2009 11:14 AM


Carla, Cranky Catholic,

Exactly. Why go to an abortionist when a good OB/GYN can handle any of these difficult cases??? A good doctor (non-abortionist) is always there to save the baby and the mother.

After abortion was legalized in the U.S. 1973, hospitals started doing early abortions for the "convenience" of the mother regardless of the reason. The pro-abort feminists were unhappy because the control was taken away from them, something they hadn't foreseen happening. The hospitals didn't do "late term abortions" as we understand it today because normal obstetric care didn't do late term abortion "on demand". If an emergency arose, it was dealt with according to normal procedure as a doctor saw fit. The abortion industry saw abortion as an easy way to make money and separate clinics and chains rose up around the country, under the guise of "helping women" who they'd brainwashed to think abortion was a good idea.
Fast forward to 2009. Was the abortion industry really necessary? Are we better off with 50 million people in our country?

Posted by: Janet at June 3, 2009 11:17 AM


I found Nebraska Vital statistics for abortion in 2008, 2,702 abortions-Length of Gestation* (in weeks) was not reported, so we dont know how old those 2,702 preborn babies were when they were killed. According to what I found Caharts abortion center is in Sarpy County where 1,949 were done in 2008. Someone might look into the reporting laws of Nebraska and find out if the law is being violated. Here's the link to 2008 Nebraska Report on Abortions in 2008: http://www.hhs.state.ne.us/srd/ABORTION2008RPT.PDF
To find other years I did a search on Statistical Report of Abortions http://www.nebraska.gov/search/search.cgi

I wrote this blog before Tiller was killed called "In Your Father's Name" where I asked for people to donate money to their local CPC in their Father's Name. I will be donating to the Pregnancy Center that is next door to Tillers Abortion Center in my Father's name. http://tinyurl.com/fathersname
Since Carhart is suppose to resume abortions sometime next week it will be needed more then ever to help support Choices Medical Clinic.

Posted by: RooForLife at June 3, 2009 11:17 AM


To answer the question... if the child was in the third trimester and was deemed medically incompatible with life, the mother would have the choice of waiting until labor started on its own, inducing early, or if medical complications arose for the mother, induction or c-section would be performed. The baby would be given full care as a separate patient, although the parents would have the right, as any parents, to determine how medically invasive the care would be. Both mother and child would be treated in safe, medically responsible way. Carhart and Tiller are unnecessary.

Posted by: Elisabeth at June 3, 2009 11:19 AM


that should say:

"50 million fewer people in our country"

Posted by: Janet at June 3, 2009 11:19 AM


Doctors preserve life, they don't TAKE LIFE.

The Hippocratic Oath has become the Hippocritic oath. One of the lines of the Hippocratic Oath is "First, do no harm,"

Abortion does harm! So does Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at June 3, 2009 11:20 AM


This may have been covere already but I just read that the man who murdered Tiller was schizophrenic and wasnt taking his medication.

Posted by: Lauren at June 3, 2009 11:21 AM


I had to ask myself, what would cause a young intern doctor to become a late term abortionist when there are so many other opportunities to serve? Insecurity, poor grades, incompetence, childhood trauma?

I wonder if there's a way to get a hold of Tiller's, Carhart's and Hern's medical school grade transcripts. I bet those would answer a lot of questions.

I've got to say that it is probably due to one's own perception that they would not be a standout doctor, i.e., the only one or one of three in any other field of medicine. Also, the greed factor is there as well. Perhaps they thought because of their mediocrity that they could make as much money.

They then cover their own sense of insecurity with the false mantle that they are protecting women, i. e. "Trust Women". No they're not. They are killing women, both the women in the womb and the souls of the mother.

And why would I want to trust any woman who: 1) Had sex that could result in a pregnancy she could not support and 2) Want to kill the very baby growing inside of her?

No, the button should have read: "Love Women" by counseling them not to abort their babies.

Posted by: HisMan at June 3, 2009 11:22 AM


Liz,

I believe that faithful line is now removed from most of the current/modern versions of the Oath.

The line removed (in 1964) states:

"I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy."

It was replaced with:

"But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God."

The rest is now bloody history...

Posted by: RSD at June 3, 2009 11:57 AM


"I've got to say that it is probably due to one's own perception that they would not be a standout doctor, i.e., the only one or one of three in any other field of medicine. Also, the greed factor is there as well. Perhaps they thought because of their mediocrity that they could make as much money."
=============================================

Hisman..you are correct.

My wife was an MD before she gave that up to focus and raise our family...and she states that MD's that go into abortion are the bottom-scraping kind of scum with no morals, no empathy to patients nor their families (ie..no bedside manners) and are in it (the medical profession) only for themselves...either only to make a name or money or both...they are not there to Heal.

They are, generally, looked-down upon by their Medical peers.

Posted by: RSD at June 3, 2009 12:12 PM


Regarding your "Ok, blech, let me pause here and say third trimester abortions are never medically necessary...."

I'd love to see some citing from reputable sources indicating this is true.

I'm not criticizing your opinion, I am a fan of arguments supported by actual facts.

Thank you.

Posted by: kasdc at June 3, 2009 12:35 PM


Carhart is creepy. That junk yard he operates (i have seen pics before) is the back alley deal that they promised women to get away from. Like I have said for years. The veterinarians have higher standards for cats and dogs.

Posted by: xppc at June 3, 2009 12:52 PM


Also, it's fairly rich to make a tactic out of denying doctors clinic space, then using the clinic space they have to settle for as a weapon against them.

Fully consistent, but rich nonetheless.

Posted by: Auguste at June 3, 2009 12:54 PM


Wow, it seems like the trolls have come out in full force.


There are medical situations in which labor must be induced early or c-sections performed. There is no medical reason for the child to be killed prior to either of these procedures.

Futhermore, there is no medical reaons for a woman to go to an outpatient clinic, undergo cervical dialation over several days in a hospital room, deliver a dead baby, and be immeditely released back to the hotel room.

If a woman's life is in danger, labor should be immedietly induced within a hospital setting. Everything possible should be done to save both the mother and child. The mother should remain hospitalized for the appropriate time following her delivery.

Posted by: Lauren at June 3, 2009 1:01 PM


I'm sorry. That should read "several days in a hotel room" not "several days in a hospital room."

Posted by: Lauren at June 3, 2009 1:04 PM


"therapeutic abortions "...

there is nothing "therapeutic" about abortions...not to the woman and never for the baby in the womb...

Posted by: RSD at June 3, 2009 1:10 PM


Xanthippas,

Wasn't legal abortion the answer? Didn't it mean these conditions would never exist?

What stops Carhart from setting up a modern clinic, one that actually has electricity, not a generator, in a nice neighborhood?

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 1:34 PM


Anon, Kansas law says: substantial and irreversible bodily harm. Subsequent definitions have included "metal health" as bodily harm. Reasons cited in Tiller's records included: unable to attend a rock concert, unable to play H.S. sports

Posted by: Keith at June 3, 2009 1:37 PM


Auguste,

Ever wonder why anyone won't rent them office space? Also, who forces the building owners to refuse to rent office space?

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 1:37 PM


Welcome the trolls. The veiws per day should go up because the Tiller publicity drives googling information. People can see and learn her. They get truthfull posts deleted at liberal newspapers.
Jill has high standards. No cussing and attacking of others and the truth is important.

Posted by: xppc at June 3, 2009 1:38 PM


HisMan, Tiller's illegal abortion providing father died in a plane crash. Tiller began his career shortly thereafter.

Also, being from Kansas and operating a pro-life booth, I heard a story from a gentleman who's MD friend went to medical school w/ Tiller. He said Tiller tried to get him to partner w/ him in the abortion field. The MD said Tiller was espousing the exurbanite amounts of money they would make doing them.

Posted by: Keith at June 3, 2009 1:42 PM


Auguste,

While the article is quite the sob story, have you ever wondered why anyone won't rent them office space? Also, who forces the building owners to refuse to rent office space?

For all his work on the place Carhart overlooked electricity. How hard up, orjust plain stupid, is this guy?


Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 1:43 PM


*exorbitant*

Posted by: Keith at June 3, 2009 1:45 PM


wow! when I looked at the pictures the following came to mind:

chopshop, butcher, seedy, and yes it definitely is a piece of hell.

And this isn't back alley abortion? I'd be expecting bloody floors, walls, and a dirty, smelly "doctor".

Posted by: angel at June 3, 2009 1:49 PM


Lauren 1:01PM

Excellent post. I would add that in any health or life threatening situation at any point in pregnancy, everything necessary will be done to preserve the mother's life and health and that of her unborn child as well.
She need only go to a hospital capable of managing her care.

Have any of these trolls ever heard of high risk maternal care and neonatal intensive care units?
Just what kind of patients and situations do these high risk maternal care units handle? Dahhhhh.

There is nothing new about obstetrical emergencies requiring premature induction or cesarean section. In the last trimester they do not require the killing of the baby first

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 1:55 PM


Can you imagine calling for directions to this dump?

Receptionist:
"Yes, you will see a large sign that says abortion/contraception when you pull into the parking lot from the BACK ALLEY. Just park next to the hunk of junk pick up truck with a flat tire or better yet, park next to the group of red port o potties. This may be easier as we always ask for a urine sample prior to any procedure. There are styrofoam cups in each stall for your convenience." Be careful with the sample as you walk to the entrance. The parking lot is not paved and quite muddy."


Ick. Ick. Ick.
Is that acutally a truck stencil on the brick exterior wall?
What a disgusting place.

Posted by: Sandy at June 3, 2009 1:56 PM


Sandy,

LOL. You might add to be careful not to hit the port o potties as there might be a patient or staff in one.

If this guy doesn't have brains enough to make certain his building has electricity, why would anyone assume he knows enough to have indoor plumging?

Oh, and don't pay attention to any police raids in progress on the garage next to the back entrance.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 2:06 PM


Sandy,

I just noticed the stencil. Certainly gives the place class.

What is that "wacker" trailer near the entrance.

Oh, you would want to warn clients about avoiding the dumpster as well located in front of the lovely beige building that looks something like a drug den.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 2:13 PM


wow! when I looked at the pictures the following came to mind:

chopshop, butcher, seedy, and yes it definitely is a piece of hell.

And this isn't back alley abortion? I'd be expecting bloody floors, walls, and a dirty, smelly "doctor".

Posted by: angel at June 3, 2009 2:13 PM


Thanks for the replies. I think the case can be made that the mere fact a mother boarded a plane or drove a thousand miles to a late-term abortion clinic like Tiller or Carhart's, then it wasn't a "necessary" procedure in the first place.

The media doesn't ask the question, "Why does a mother have to go to an abortion clinic for a medically necessary abortion?" (If the doctors in the hospital won't do it, then hold the hospitals accountable.) Why are there so few doctors doing it? Because doctors won't kill a third-trimester child just because the mother broke up with her boyfriend.

Posted by: Cranky Catholic at June 3, 2009 2:14 PM


Jill, this is excellent. The legitimate medical community's snub of late term abortionists is definitely telling.

Equally telling is how abortionists hate proposed legislation that they be required to have hospital privileges.

Late term abortion clinics are, in a word, rackets. Actually, rackets run by quacks, in other words, "quackets." They are a "legal" illegality, like all abortion clinics. Abortionists do what would be illegal for anyone else to do without the protection of the powerful. As Lila Rose's undercover documentaries and thousands of pieces of documentation have shown, they exploit young victims of rape and incest and lie to protect rapists. They feed off of fear and deception, and exaggerate the risks of pregnancy and birth. They are not in it to "trust women" or any of that hooey. They are in it for the cash!

If so many women, as these abortionists say, are special cases who desperately need late term abortions, what about the great majority of women in the same circumstances treated at hospitals by real OBs? Are we sincerely expected to believe their claim that they, the heroic late term abortionists, are providing better treatment than the majority of the medical community? How asinine. It's like the guys who say you'll never get out of debt without their Ponzi scheme or the quacks who say you'll never lose weight without the latest dangerous fad. The media has made Tiller and cronies out to be heroes and martyrs, who saved women's lives and were the womens' only hope. Yet, the media have never produced a single instance of a condition that could not have been handled in a safer and more humane way by a hospital.

The media's apotheosis of George Tiller and snub of murdered Army private William Long, is also, indeed, very telling.

HisMan: Good insights about Carhart's dump.

Posted by: Catherine at June 3, 2009 2:18 PM


"Late-term abortions are NEVER necessary."

I would have to disagree. Andrew Sullivan's blog ran a number of compelling stories from mothers, family members, doctors, etc.

One example: assuming that a woman gravely ill from cancer could not have a medical need for an abortion is a rather fanatical conclusion.

Posted by: Mason at June 3, 2009 2:19 PM


Catherine,

As I pointed out previously, there are maternal high risk units.

There are medical specialists. There are OB specialists.

Pregnant women can get whatever medical is necessary to preserve their health and life.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 2:22 PM



I can't imagine any OB or family practitioner diagnosing a serious risk factor in a pregnant patient and not referring the patient for specialized care.

I can see the doctor refusing to abort the woman who can be helped or has no medical issues, then her claiming she "needs" an abortion for "medical" reasons.

Its like your family doctor diagnosing you with cancer then telling you you're on your own, go find someone who can help you.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 2:26 PM


Want a little rundown on carhart's dumpster?

He has no electricity. For a single late term abortion or 2 he pulls in 10 grand. so money can't be an issue.
No ice box for meds because the generator doesn't run at night. No fridge for worker lunches. No lights at nigh to clean the pigsty. No Hot water? I hope people reading the wichita papers google this site.

Posted by: xppc at June 3, 2009 2:29 PM


Mason 2:19PM

Nothing fanatical at all. There would be any number of circumstances to consider with the terminal patient.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 2:29 PM


One more thing -- calling the people who question you "trolls" cheapens the term. I am willing to agree with you and most of the commenters here that there is NO reason for late-term abortion IF there is compelling, nigh-irrefutable evidence. However, the more compelling arguments I've seen at this point lead me to conclude that there are morally justified exceptions.

Calling pro-choice commenters names doesn't help you change the laws.

Posted by: Mason at June 3, 2009 2:30 PM


Mary,
Why can't those that support late term abortion say what they really mean to say?

Late term abortions are necessary to kill the fully formed human child that a mother does not want. She wants a dead baby or else she would give birth and that would terminate the pregnancy.

Posted by: Carla at June 3, 2009 2:33 PM


Mason,
If you stay and comment using intelligent dialogue and can hold an adult conversation you are not a troll.
There were a couple of comments on this thread that were deleted. I would call them trolls.

Posted by: Carla at June 3, 2009 2:36 PM


Mason,

As was pointed out yes, obstetrical emergencies can occur requiring premature induction or c-section.

Women can have serious medical issues.

That is why we have maternal high risk units and medical specialists. That is why we have OBs specializing in the care of high risk pregnancies.

About the cancer patient, any medically necessary procedure can be safely and legally done in the hospital.

That is why there is no need for Carhart and company.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 2:38 PM


Carla 2:33PM

You answered your own question :)

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 2:40 PM


One example: assuming that a woman gravely ill from cancer could not have a medical need for an abortion is a rather fanatical conclusion.
Posted by: Mason at June 3, 2009 2:19 PM

in fact, a recent discovery is that women who have cancer can be safely treated with chemotherapy after the first trimester with absolutely no harm to the baby.

Posted by: angel at June 3, 2009 2:43 PM


Mason 2:30PM

Carla's 2:33PM post addresses your post as well.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 2:46 PM


Auguste 12:54PM

I honestly don't know why you even posted that article. It certainly doesn't do much for Carhart.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 2:49 PM


One example: assuming that a woman gravely ill from cancer could not have a medical need for an abortion is a rather fanatical conclusion.

Posted by: Mason at June 3, 2009 2:19 PM
============================================

Do you have factual medical statistics to prove these aboprtion scenarios OR are these just 2nd-hand stories you read somewhere or are all these in your head??

Posted by: RSD at June 3, 2009 2:51 PM


Mary -- thank you for replying in a civil manner. I appreciate it.

To clarify the situation: a woman is told she will die within a few months without immediate chemotherapy. The fetus will of course die with the treatment. She is told the recuperation time after Caesarian will leave her too weak for too long for her to survive chemo. The only option which gives her any medically likely chance of survival is an abortion. If this woman was your sister, or your daughter, could you tell her that an abortion at that point would be unforgiveable? A criminal act?

Is the D&E of an already-dead fetus abortion?

That's a few scenarios. There are others on Andrew Sullivan's blog (the "It's So Personal" series). I note here that as a practicing Roman Catholic Sullivan is strongly pro-life, but moderate on what should be considered criminal.

My experience has been that the more one learns about the physical details surrounding abortion the more moderate one becomes. Saying "abortion is always murder", or "Keep your hands off my body!" is a lot easier when you know less about the biological details.

Getting back to your response, Mary -- if you (or others) could be more specific in your response I will take the statement "Late-term abortion is NEVER necessary" more seriously.

Posted by: Mason at June 3, 2009 2:51 PM


Carla at 2:33 says: "Late term abortions are necessary to kill the fully formed human child that a mother does not want. She wants a dead baby or else she would give birth and that would terminate the pregnancy."

But these many of these women are aborting WANTED babies. In one story I read, a woman learned that her fetus was diagnosed with Brittle Bone disease. She learned that her fetus was in excruciating pain and, once born, would only live a few hours. Rather than prolong its agony (and her own), she chose to abort at 21 weeks. I don't think she wanted a dead baby, but she was going to get a dead baby no matter what.

Posted by: Prochoicer at June 3, 2009 2:52 PM


"Rather than prolong its agony (and her own), she chose to abort at 21 weeks. I don't think she wanted a dead baby, but she was going to get a dead baby no matter what.

Posted by: Prochoicer at June 3, 2009 2:52 PM"
============================================

yeah...let kill the baby now..it's gonna be dead anyway, in a few weeks or months.

Posted by: RSD at June 3, 2009 2:54 PM


PC 2:52PM


I thought fetuses didn't feel pain???
That's what your side claims anyway.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 2:55 PM


"One more thing -- calling the people who question you "trolls" cheapens the term"
==========================================

hey, you're right...'trolls' just guard small bridges...

Let me think...what DO we call people that are for the killing of innocent, unborn babies in the womb???

Posted by: RSD at June 3, 2009 2:59 PM


Prochoicer,
I hear ya.
The mom decided to have her baby killed before it died.


Posted by: Carla at June 3, 2009 3:06 PM


Hi Mason.

"To clarify the situation: a woman is told she will die within a few months without immediate chemotherapy. The fetus will of course die with the treatment. She is told the recuperation time after Caesarian will leave her too weak for too long for her to survive chemo. The only option which gives her any medically likely chance of survival is an abortion. If this woman was your sister, or your daughter, could you tell her that an abortion at that point would be unforgiveable? A criminal act? Is the D&E of an already-dead fetus abortion?"

I appreciate your civil tone as well :) Let me address your quote above. I have two daughters, aged 1.5 years and the other 3 weeks. I unequivocally state that it would be morally reprehensible for them to obtain an abortion in the circumstances you described above. First of all, the way way in which the feuds dies is important. Yes, the fetus will die either way, but I am not a utilitarian, and hence when I attempt to determine the morality of an action, I look at not only the ends, but also the means (as well as other considerations). That being said, I hold to the principle that one may never do evil (in this case, a direct abortion) so that good (a better likelihood that the mother will survive) may come of it. The fact that a c-section will make the mother weaker for her chemo is not a death sentence to the mother. The chemo may have not worked either way, or in her weaker condition she may still undergo successful radiation treatment. The way I assess the situation is that you (not you Mason, but someone in general) are directly performing an evil act with the hope that it will bring about good, and that is a principle that I simply can not agree with.

Now I will also say that under NO circumstance is abortion EVER unforgivable. Always, always, ALWAYS abortion and anything else is forgivable.

As far as your last question goes, by definition, no, it would not be an abortion because abortion involves killing, and one can not kill something that is already dead. If a D&E was proposed in your above scenario on an already dead fetus, I would be willing to hear some reasons why that should be permitted. It seems to be somewhat of a disrespect for the body of the deceased, but if it is a matter of disrespect of the body of the deceased vs. a higher percentage of saving another's life, I tend to lean towards wanting to do what can be done to save a life.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at June 3, 2009 3:08 PM


I had a friend who was pregnant with a child who had Potter's Syndrome. The little girl was going to die soon after birth. The mom was pressured to abort. She did not. Grace lived 30 min. She was held and loved and sung to. She died in her Mommy's arms.

I had another friend who was pregnant with a child who had anencephaly. She was pressured to abort. She did not. She named her baby Grace as well. Grace lived for one hour. She was bathed and dressed and held and loved until she passed away surrounded by friends and family.

I have another friend who has a baby boy right now who has hydrocephaly. He is now home with infant hospice care and surrounded by friends and family that love him dearly. He will pass away peacefully as well.

What a beautiful legacy they have left for their families and friends. To witness such courage and strength in the midst of terrible pain. These babies were all welcomed and given honor and dignity.


A late term abortion would have helped HOW?

Posted by: Carla at June 3, 2009 3:12 PM


Mary at 2:55 p.m., I don't think that's an accurate characterization. It depends on the stage of development.

Carla -- I actually do appreciate your response. It wasn't clear to me whether people on this site denied such situations exist or whether you simply think it is wrong to have an abortion in that situation. You may think it is better to force the fetus to live in agony for several additional months and to force the woman to give birth only to see her baby die in agony within a few hours. But I don't think you can characterize the mother or her doctor as an evil psychopath for choosing abortion, even if you disagree with that decision. (I am not saying you are calling them evil psychopaths but it seems to be the assumption of many posters here that at least the doctors are.)

Posted by: Prochoicer at June 3, 2009 3:16 PM


Someone very close to me just stopped her cancer treatments because she is pregnant. She is refusing to "terminate the pregnancy." She wants to give this baby EVERY opportunity to live and grow and be and she believes it is a miracle. A high risk pregnancy to be sure, but a miracle.

Posted by: Carla at June 3, 2009 3:17 PM


Prochoicer,
I do not take any of those stories lightly. I cannot imagine being in that circumstance. I do know that many of my friends and family and myself included would not want a child to suffer but to live as long as he/she will live and let nature take its course.

Very heart wrenching to me. All of those women are my friends. I have walked with them through their pregnancies. The highs and the lows. The births, the deaths and the grief.

Posted by: Carla at June 3, 2009 3:21 PM


It is one thing to have a late term abortion because you are depressed and another to have a late term abortion because you don't want the baby to suffer. The end result though is the same. A dead baby and a wounded mother.

Posted by: Carla at June 3, 2009 3:24 PM


Carla,

I just read your response about the women you know whose babies died shortly after birth I also see your response about the woman close to you who stopped her cancer treatments.

The woman whose story I read chose to abort at 21 weeks because she wanted to end her fetus's pain and to end her own pain. She concluded that under the circumstances abortion was the kindest option in a situation with no good options. I understand that other women might decide to go through the birth and hold the baby while he or she dies. What I don't understand is the demonization of people who support the woman's right to decide what is best for herself and her child in this kind of heartbreaking situation.

I honor the choice of the expecting mother with cancer to sacrifice her own health, or perhaps her life, for that of her fetus. That SHOULD be every woman's choice. But would you force a woman to forego cancer treatment if she did not want to make the same choice?

Posted by: Prochoicer at June 3, 2009 3:28 PM


There is also a huge difference between a late-term abortion performed by for profit greedy high priced charlatans like Tiller and Carhart and medical induction of labor in an appropriate hospital setting with all care given both patients even though the child is not expected to survive.

Posted by: Elisabeth at June 3, 2009 3:29 PM


We are cross-posting. I agree that the results are the same in late-term abortions -- dead baby and wounded mother. At least we agree that these are awful situations.

But I think the alternatives are often equally bad or worse. That is why it has to be up to the mother.

Posted by: Prochoicer at June 3, 2009 3:30 PM


But these many of these women are aborting WANTED babies. In one story I read, a woman learned that her fetus was diagnosed with Brittle Bone disease. She learned that her fetus was in excruciating pain and, once born, would only live a few hours. Rather than prolong its agony (and her own), she chose to abort at 21 weeks. I don't think she wanted a dead baby, but she was going to get a dead baby no matter what.

Posted by: Prochoicer at June 3, 2009 2:52 PM

Pcer,
I read that article and found it ridiculous. As Mary stated, your side claims these babies don't feel any pain. If this baby felt pain, then how much pain did it feel when it was ripped apart from it's mother's womb? How much pain do all of these babies feel as their skulls and chests are crushed, limbs ripped from their bodies, or being burned by saline solution?

This little one could have been given pallative care to ensure it felt no pain after birth.


Mary,
I am not sure what the WACKER could be. Maybe he attaches the suction hose to this super powered vacuum machine for quicker faster results.
Good humor on not hitting the port o potties as you pull into the lot. This looks like something out of a horror flick.

Posted by: Sandy at June 3, 2009 3:33 PM


"What I don't understand is the demonization of people who support the woman's right to decide what is best for herself and her child in this kind of heartbreaking situation. "
==========================================

Funny you mentioned the word "demonization"...What, pray tell, would push the mother to kill her own child SPECIALLY in this heartbreaking situation??

Posted by: RSD at June 3, 2009 3:34 PM


It wasn't clear to me whether people on this site denied such situations exist or whether you simply think it is wrong to have an abortion in that situation. You may think it is better to force the fetus to live in agony for several additional months and to force the woman to give birth only to see her baby die in agony within a few hours.

we don't deny that these difficult situations exist, we just do not believe that abortion is the answer.
For many of us, we also believe that each person, no matter how short their existence on this earth, has a purpose.

And babies do not have to "die in agony". Most of these babies die peacefully, in their mothers arms surrounded by love not only from their families but by nursing staff as well.

And we also acknowledge the terrible grief and pain that mothers and fathers must go through in these sort of circumstances. We believe, however that this is a positive grief in a sense, knowing they gave this life a chance and they cared for the baby until death. It gives the parents a chance to meet their baby, say goodbye and acknowledge his/her existence. I don't think parents who abort in these circumstances can really do this.

Posted by: angel at June 3, 2009 3:36 PM


How much support does a prochoice dr. actually GIVE a woman with a baby who is growing inside of her that might live a short time after birth?

A few of the women switched to prolife doctors during their pregnancies because of the pressure to have abortions.

I can hardly FORCE a woman to forego cancer treatments or FORCE a woman to stay pregnant.

I mean this sincerely, THANK YOU for having a conversation with me on a subject that has impacted my life in so many ways. I appreciate your candid responses.

Posted by: Carla at June 3, 2009 3:37 PM


What I don't understand is the demonization of people who support the woman's right to decide what is best for herself and her child in this kind of heartbreaking situation.

It is never morally correct to end a person's suffering by killing them - either in the womb or outside. This is murder masked as compassion. Once again it highlights our society's dread of suffering which is deemed useless.

Oh and we don't "demonize" them. We state that it is morally wrong. It is their conscience that convicts them. Not us.

Posted by: angel at June 3, 2009 3:41 PM


PCer,
Also it needs to be understood that dr.s will more often than not pressure women to abort when their babies are diagnosed with fatal anomalies.
In most cases women already feel guilty that somehow they have caused the situation. Then they are put into a position that now they are pressured to kill their baby.

I volunteer with professionals in the pregnancy loss field and with out a doubt, women who carry their babies to term and allow their babies to be loved, held and die on their own terms never regret that decision. Women who feel pressure to abort and then do, will often come back seeking help for depression and guilt over the decision to end their child's life. Where are these drs. to help them now???? Nowhere.

I also agree with Bobby, even if a baby has died in utero, how horrible it is to dismember it. How disrespetful to that baby. What mother could ever feel comfortable with this??

Posted by: Sandy at June 3, 2009 3:43 PM


RSD -- a fair question. The details in the cancer scenario are my fabrication, the scenario though is not.

For example, here: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/06/01/late_term_abortion/index.html

"Abortions were necessary to qualify for chemotherapy." Doing some quick web searches have thus far not revealed greater details.

I was also edified by the discussion here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31065403 (transcript), http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#31051686 (video).

Some facts, not independently verified: About 300-600 abortions -- or up to four one-hundredths of 1 percent -- are performed after 26 weeks, out of the 1.5 million that are performed in the U.S. each year.

It appears that most abortions categorized "late-term" occur around the time of viability (24 weeks or so) or just before.

A quote:
"Eight in 10 Americans surveyed consistently say that abortion should be legal in cases of fetal defect. Severe fetal defects often are not diagnosed until late in pregnancy. Amniocentesis, which can be used to diagnose hundreds of these serious fetal conditions, may not produce results until after 20 weeks of gestation. Consequently, locating a physician who will perform the abortion, making travel arrangements, and securing the necessary funds may be a time-consuming process."

It appears that late-term abortion to save the life of a mother is very rare, and the vast majority of them are due to fetal defects, often fatal.

Posted by: Mason at June 3, 2009 3:44 PM


Posted by: Sandy at June 3, 2009 3:33 PM
--------

WACKER is a portable electric generator. This is the one that's supplying AC power for his operation in the building. As HisMan points out - that's okay for construction, but completely against OSHA standards for medical equipment operation.

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at June 3, 2009 3:47 PM


Carla, I believe most women get very little support for continuing their pregnancies in such circumstances.
I think the pressure to abort is very strong and unless a woman/couple have a very strong prolife ethic prior to the pregnancy, they will find it tough going.
I have a friend who contracted 5th disease during her 6th pregnancy. She was pressured to abort (which she did not!) because she was told her baby would be born dead. Being the prez of the local prolife group she wasn't considering abortion but was concerned about her baby. I was able to comfort her with the stories of two other friends who delivered healthy babies despite having 5th disease.
Doctors can be wrong.

Posted by: angel at June 3, 2009 3:47 PM


"It appears that late-term abortion to save the life of a mother is very rare, and the vast majority of them are due to fetal defects, often fatal.

Posted by: Mason at June 3, 2009 3:44 PM"
=========================================

So, what's wrong with letting the baby be born and letting them live their few hours/ days/ weeks of life naturally?

They may die, they may live...but who are we to decide that?

With Life, there is Hope..I always say.

Posted by: RSD at June 3, 2009 3:49 PM


Carla,

I know we have talked before and I do appreciate your perspective.

I didn't mean to imply that you could personally force any particular choice on women -- only that you perhaps support laws that might force a particular course of action on women in these situations.

How much support does a prochoice dr. actually GIVE a woman with a baby who is growing inside of her that might live a short time after birth?

I would imagine that prochoice doctors come in varying degrees of dedication and supportiveness to patients undergoing difficult situations -- just like prolife doctors. I have met a lot of horrible doctors, but my current doctor is prochoice and I would trust her to go above and beyond the call of duty if I were ever in that situation.


Posted by: Prochoicer at June 3, 2009 4:06 PM


"Abortions were necessary to qualify for chemotherapy." Doing some quick web searches have thus far not revealed greater details.

Also this protocol is now changing. As I stated earlier, studies have now demonstrated that after the first trimester, chemotherapy is safe to administer to the mother.

Posted by: angel at June 3, 2009 4:07 PM


Which laws are we talking about, Prochoicer?

Did anyone notice the group of people praying in the first photo?

Posted by: Carla at June 3, 2009 4:13 PM


yes I did Carla. At least I assumed that's what they were doing.

Posted by: angel at June 3, 2009 4:14 PM


The news media is portraying Tiller as a hero and saint whose only motivation was to help "desperate" women who were pregnant with babies that had terrible defects or some condition that would have been fatal immediately or very soon after birth.

However, we have no right to play God. I agree with RSD's post above.

Also to get back to Tiller, there seems no doubt he also did late term abortions on healthy babies. No word from the "news" media on that, or on the obvious profit motive. I believe Tiller made in excess of a million a year, something hardly any doctors can claim. I think even top ranking heart specialists probably dont make that much but could be wrong.

Posted by: Joanne at June 3, 2009 4:14 PM


Oh and Cathcart's mill really gives new meaning to "back alley abortion." What a disgusting place.

Posted by: Joanne at June 3, 2009 4:15 PM


Carla,

Well, that's my question. I am wondering whether you would support outlawing a woman's decision to abort a child who is going to die within hours of brittle bone disease? I am wondering whether you would support outlawing a woman's right to get chemotherapy if it would endanger her fetus?

Posted by: Prochoicer at June 3, 2009 4:19 PM


for those who wish to become informed about cancer during pregnancy:

http://www.pregnantwithcancer.org/

see the articles section of the website.
Also Dr. Elyce Cardonick is a leader in this field.

Posted by: angel at June 3, 2009 4:20 PM


Prochoicer: if a woman wants to seek treatment for her illness that is fine. The intent of the treatment is to cure her. A secondary effect may be to kill the unborn baby.
However, she cannot kill her baby FIRST and DIRECTLY by aborting it and then seek treatment for her illness. This is not morally permissible as Bobby outlined above.

Posted by: angel at June 3, 2009 4:22 PM


You made exactly my point, Jill -- of course Carhart wants to keep Tiller's mill running. It's an upgrade from his old place. It's as if the owner of the largest, most opulent Mercedes dealership in town died, and Junior Sample stalwartly offered to keep the business afloat for him, just out of the goodness of his heart.

Posted by: Christina at June 3, 2009 4:23 PM


Can find information on abortion in KS from 1998-2008 Abortions in Kansas: Preliminary Reports
http://www.kdheks.gov/hci/absumm.html

Posted by: RooForLife at June 3, 2009 4:24 PM


You made exactly my point, Jill -- of course Carhart wants to keep Tiller's mill running. It's an upgrade from his old place. It's as if the owner of the largest, most opulent Mercedes dealership in town died, and Junior Sample stalwartly offered to keep the business afloat for him, just out of the goodness of his heart.
Posted by: Christina at June 3, 2009 4:23 PM

oh, yuck! never thought of it like that.....:(

Posted by: angel at June 3, 2009 4:26 PM


Mason, a woman whose life was in danger wouldn't be going to a clinic like Tiller's. She would have her labor induced or a c-section at a hospital where she could be closely monitored.

There is no medical situation in which the safest option is to travel half way across the country and spend 3 days in a hotel while your cervix dilates slowly only to be sent home within an hour of your delivery of a dead baby.

If a woman's life is in danger, a hospital will take necessary action. I had a c-section at 32 weeks because I was developing an amniotic infection. The infection was dangerous to both mine and my son's health, so we decided on a pre-term c-section.

My friend had severe pre-eclampsia and also had her daughter delivered prematurely. Hospitals have no real qualms about doing this. The difference between a hospital inducing and early labor and Tiller's clinic, is that the hospital tries to save both lives. The hospital also cares for the woman far more carefully than did Tiller.

Posted by: Lauren at June 3, 2009 4:30 PM


Mason, also the statement that 'the vast majority' of late term abortions are performed due to fetal deformity is not correct.

By Tiller's own admission, 3/4 of his late term patients were simply teenagers who had hid their pregnancies until they became obvious.

Posted by: Lauren at June 3, 2009 4:33 PM


good points Lauren

I think Tiller's clients were women who for the most part just didn't want the baby so they went to someone who would get rid of "it".
If they went to a hospital they would have a live baby. They don't want a live baby. They want no baby. Period.

Posted by: angel at June 3, 2009 4:34 PM


Oh how gross! I'll snap a few pics of the clinics I go to. They are equally disgusting. I wouldn't drag a dying dog into one.

Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 4:39 PM


Ever notice how Pro-deathers won't touch this one with a 10 foot pole??

Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 4:42 PM


Lauren,
Do you have a link to that information? I would love to send it to my local paper (not that they would print it) to debunk the glory piece Planned Parenthood wrote about the late Tiller. They absolutely took this opportunity to propogate the need for this type of "compassionate" care from such a "compassionate" man that women need in their deparate situation.
Eww.

Posted by: Sandy at June 3, 2009 4:45 PM


Carhart really creeps me out!

Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 4:46 PM


Let me gather it up Sandy. The 3/4 statistic was in the KS newspaper ages ago, but I'm pretty sure I can find it online. The information about the techniques used should also be pretty easy to find again.

Posted by: Lauren at June 3, 2009 4:52 PM


Here's a link that has some good information on late term abortions, including Tiller's own claims about his practice.

http://www.nrlc.org/ABORTION/pba/pbafact9.html

Posted by: Lauren at June 3, 2009 4:54 PM


If a woman's life is in danger, a hospital will take necessary action. I had a c-section at 32 weeks because I was developing an amniotic infection. The infection was dangerous to both mine and my son's health, so we decided on a pre-term c-section.

My friend had severe pre-eclampsia and also had her daughter delivered prematurely. Hospitals have no real qualms about doing this. The difference between a hospital inducing and early labor and Tiller's clinic, is that the hospital tries to save both lives. The hospital also cares for the woman far more carefully than did Tiller.
Posted by: Lauren at June 3, 2009 4:30 PM

Excellent points Lauren and explains exactly why late term abortions are not necessary. A c-section ends the pregnancy but gives the baby a chance for life. And with doctors saving babies even 3 months premature these days the babies chances are very good.

Posted by: Joanne at June 3, 2009 4:56 PM


xppc 2:29PM

I wonder if those port o potties means he also has no indoor plumbing. Honestly, nothing would surprise me.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 5:04 PM


This looks like a nearby junkyard in my town. The final resting place for cars damaged beyond repair in wrecks.

Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 5:09 PM


Actually, the car dump looks better.

Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 5:10 PM


RSD -- I partially agree with you on "letting the baby be born".
Sometimes doctors are wrong (as a previous poster noted). Sometimes life does "find a way". Some mothers would feel more at peace having a chance to hold their baby, however short his or her life would be outside the womb.
(For example http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/05/its-so-personal.html for a nebulous case.)

I partially disagree as well.
- Some babies have birth defects so severe that they will be born as (and I hurt to say this) monstrosities.
(See lokywoky's response, four posts down, on fetal defects here: http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5565 ).
- Some babies suffer so much outside of the womb that their parents wish, in retrospect, that they had terminated the fetus to give it a less painful death.
(See http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/its-so-personal-ctd-the-catholic-mother.html).
- Some parents do not have health insurance, have low incomes, and would be bankrupted by the medical costs associated with trying to keep the baby alive, and thus choose the well-being of their older children over the noble attempt to prolong the life of a 24-week-old fetus.

This last reason, as venal as it might be characterized, is an act that I cannot see as criminal, and is in a gray area for me morally. That's the main issue I have with excessive prohibitions on abortion -- we have to distinguish a moral wrong from a criminal act. Abortion clinics are, indisputably, places of death. However I find that calling abortion doctors "mass murderers" to be over-reaching. War is a nasty dirty business as well, but few among us would call our own generals mass-murderers.

Posted by: Mason at June 3, 2009 5:13 PM


I wonder if those port o potties means he also has no indoor plumbing. Honestly, nothing would surprise me.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 5:04 PM

I think he may not have running water. How thoughtfull of him to have portibles so the ladies can freshen up and get on with life. Tiller had his customers stay at a La Quinta. special rates and I don't know some PA or nurse made rounds? before they checked out or were dismissed? When the La quinta found out, no more. Too much liability to have someone die after a back yard special and ruin their 5 star reputation.

Posted by: xppc at June 3, 2009 5:16 PM


Here's a site that has a lot of information specific to Tiller. *

Some of the stories are really heartbreaking.


http://www.dr-tiller.com/elective.htm

Posted by: Lauren at June 3, 2009 5:17 PM


I had a friend who was pregnant with a child who had Potter's Syndrome. The little girl was going to die soon after birth. The mom was pressured to abort. She did not. Grace lived 30 min. She was held and loved and sung to. She died in her Mommy's arms.

I had another friend who was pregnant with a child who had anencephaly. She was pressured to abort. She did not. She named her baby Grace as well. Grace lived for one hour. She was bathed and dressed and held and loved until she passed away surrounded by friends and family.

I have another friend who has a baby boy right now who has hydrocephaly. He is now home with infant hospice care and surrounded by friends and family that love him dearly. He will pass away peacefully as well.

What a beautiful legacy they have left for their families and friends. To witness such courage and strength in the midst of terrible pain. These babies were all welcomed and given honor and dignity.

A late term abortion would have helped HOW?

Posted by: Carla at June 3, 2009 3:12 PM
------------------------------------

Carla:

To God, the length of our physical lives here on earth, is a vapor.

It doesn't matter if it lasts 30 minutes, 1 hour, or 100 years.

Compared to eternity, it's irrelevant.

What is relevant is that abortion takes the ultimate decision of when life begins and when life ends from the Creator. It is profoundly unwise to assume we know all and take this decision away from the One who can only work it for good.

James 4:13-15 (New American Standard Bible)

13Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit."

14Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.

15Instead, you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that."

Posted by: HisMan at June 3, 2009 5:24 PM


Lauren, OMG! Could you imagine 10 women delivering dead babies all in the same room? Oh, I'm gonna be ill. How traumatizing! I've heard Kelli's story from SNM. She was only 14 and left her baby in a toilet dead! The screaming. The terror. HORRID!

Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 5:24 PM


Hi Mason, 2:51PM

You're entirely welcome, my pleasure

Late term (6-9 months) abortion is not necessary. At this point a premature induction or c-section can be utilized with every effort made to save both mother and baby.

The same can be done if a life threatening situation to the mother develops or worsens, such as pre-eclampsia

There can certainly be obstetrical emergencies where there is little choice in the matter.

In the case of cancer it has been pointed out by some other posters that chemo does not harm the unborn baby as was once thought it did. Again this would have to be taken on an individual basis, type of cancer, condition of the patient, etc.
If the mother's life is truly endangered, then what ever is necessary must be done. PL people have never argued this. Before Roe v Wade hospitals had every legal right to do whatever was necessary to save a pregnant woman's life, including abortion and premature induction and c-section.

I guess technically the D&E of a dead fetus is abortion, though it is certainly not your intent to kill the baby. If the woman is not miscarrying the dead fetus, it can pose a threat to her after a period of time. There's also the emotional factor of women who just do not want to wait for nature to take its course.
I see no moral issues with this.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 5:28 PM


Mason, every child has the right to live a full life. We do not have the right to cut off another's life out of some misplaced concept of charity.

I know many children who you would consider "monstrosities." Some have lived long lives, other's very short. Regardless, they were given human dignitiy.

I can tell that you are really working through this issue, which I appreciate. Here are a few stories I think you should see about real children with the most fatal of pregnatal diagnosis.

http://babyfaithhope.blogspot.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th6Njr-qkq0

Eliot's family also has a blog http://mattandginny.blogspot.com/

Posted by: Lauren at June 3, 2009 5:31 PM


Chris 3:47PM

Good Lord!!

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 5:31 PM


Excellent discussion pro-lifers!

Look at Carhart's sad photo. Does he look like a man fulfilled? Lord have mercy on him and all those involved in the abortion industry.

Posted by: Janet at June 3, 2009 5:35 PM


xppc 5:16PM

In fact he had no trained or credentialled staff and patient care was "supervised" by someone hired off the street. I often wondered if Kansas has a board of regulation and licensing.

I also wonder if they have a Board of Health. The thought of being an unsuspecting LaQuinta custoner checking into a room where women have been been bleeding and expelling amniotic fluid makes my skin crawl. Can we say "serious health hazards"?

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 5:36 PM


To the poster calling himself "Randell Terry."

The man who killed George Tiller was a schizophrenic who was not taking his medication. He acted alone, and has been denounced by every pro-life group. Please take your hyperventilating rhetoric elsewhere.

Posted by: Lauren at June 3, 2009 5:37 PM


RT 5:30PM

Tell us how you feel about the murder of an American soldier by a muslim "Jihadist".
Do you blame anti-war groups for this, black Americans, or Muslims??

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 5:40 PM


Mary @ 5:28,

"I guess technically the D&E of a dead fetus is abortion, though it is certainly not your intent to kill the baby. If the woman is not miscarrying the dead fetus, it can pose a threat to her after a period of time. There's also the emotional factor of women who just do not want to wait for nature to take its course.
I see no moral issues with this."

I don't think a D&E of a dead fetus is abortion, but I may be wrong. I can understand where it might be necessary to remove it - where induced labor and delivery might not be possible...

Posted by: Janet at June 3, 2009 5:45 PM


RT,

Lauren has it right. Take your hyperventilating rhetoric to the militia blogs, which Roeder did belong to and tell them what you think of them influencing and spawning a lawless fanatic like Roeder.

But before you go, tell us the PL organizations that Roeder belonged to and all the PL leaders and spokespersons who support him.

A word of caution. These aren't nice people and I wouldn't sleep well at nite knowing they had my e-mail or IP address.

But hey, you're a person of great conviction, go tell them what you think.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 5:45 PM


Randell,
Did you know him personally?
Do you really think it is moral to perform late term abortions on girls who "want to attend a rock concert"?

Is it moral to brag to other physicians about how much money can be made doing the dirty deed?

Is it moral to leave a vulnerable dying woman in a hotel room with no help becuase you are afraid to help her?

His own clinic worker (don't know her name) after she quit came out with stories of him falsifying documents related to the gestational age of the babies he murdered. she couldn't even stick around to witness any more carnage.

yeah, he was a real stand up guy.

Posted by: Sandy at June 3, 2009 5:49 PM


I'd bet RT posted that comment to every PL'r he could find. Lovely.

Posted by: Janet at June 3, 2009 5:49 PM


Randell,
Did you know him personally?
Do you really think it is moral to perform late term abortions on girls who "want to attend a rock concert"?

Is it moral to brag to other physicians about how much money can be made doing the dirty deed?

Is it moral to leave a vulnerable dying woman in a hotel room with no help becuase you are afraid to help her?

His own clinic worker (don't know her name) after she quit came out with stories of him falsifying documents related to the gestational age of the babies he murdered. she couldn't even stick around to witness any more carnage.

yeah, he was a real stand up guy.

Posted by: Sandy at June 3, 2009 5:50 PM


To the person who mentioned "brittle bone disease" (pro-choicer?):

I recall a story a while back about a boy born with brittle bone disease. He was about ten years old. Although his life was not easy, with the help of his family he was able to live a pretty "normal" life. It obviously wasn't fatal.

Posted by: Janet at June 3, 2009 6:04 PM


I find it strange that the very act of fighting for the rights of living human beings is now considered an act of hatred. Pro-choice individuals and organizations tout it as rhetoric, but what is it really?

Truth. Constitutional truth, at that.

We actually have written into law something that violates the very document we were founded upon. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Compare that with Roe v. Wade, which completely denies an unborn baby the right to life in favor of the mother's right not to be "forced" to remain pregnant.

Posted by: MaryRose at June 3, 2009 6:18 PM


How would they even be able to DETECT brittle bone disease BEFORE birth......I think that'd be pretty hard unless there's a way with amniocentisis. But that's no reason to kill a baby.

There was a commenter @ journalstar.com defending aborting a child diagnosed with anecephaly (just because they would be born with only part of their brain & possibly be blind and deaf) Sickening! (its on the Carhart wants to continue Tiller's "MISSION" article here:

http://journalstar.com/articles/2009/06/02/news/nebraska/doc4a25aabfb2c18191456874.txt


Disgusting. All those commenters THANKING Tiller and Carhart.......

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at June 3, 2009 6:20 PM


Randell, spare me, would you? You just wanted to come here and shake your finger at us. Hey, I didn't kill Tiller. In fact, I've never killed anyone in my life. I am a proud American and a law abiding citizen, so save it.

Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 6:26 PM


Pat, spare me.

Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 6:29 PM


Pat or Randell...Do you really believe that we all walk around full of hate? You have no idea how many people I have helped. How about yourself?

Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 6:36 PM


how you could possibly think that any of your work relates to the teaching's of Jesus Christ is astonishing.
Posted by: Pat Robertson at June 3, 2009 6:25 PM

And how you could possibly think any abortions relate to the teachings of Christianity is equally astonishing.

And here we have another pro abort calling pro life people the "taliban" and yet we are the ones who "hate."

Yeah right.

I'll second what Heather says.

Posted by: Joanne at June 3, 2009 6:36 PM


Pat R., you are the hater! 'Hater alert'!!! Watch out for the Pat, Bob, Randell troll!

Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 6:39 PM


Disgusting. All those commenters THANKING Tiller and Carhart.......
Posted by: LizFromNebraska at June 3, 2009 6:20 PM

Liz.... the internet and "news" media is full of propagnada like that. Almost without exception the stories are like that.

Only Anderson Cooper interviewed a woman who did not have a late term abortion.

Pro aborts are making Tiller into a "saint".

And pro aborts are exploiting his death with intimidation such as "pat robertson's" post above. They want us to shut up and WE ARENT GOING TO!

My goodness what has this world come to? Late term abortions arent just tolerated now they are celebrated!

Posted by: Joanne at June 3, 2009 6:40 PM


Joanne, I know. They are a sick group. I've told you about some of the things people yell out while I'm @ the abortion clinic. They yell "Kill them!" or "We love abortion!" Whatever happened to abortion being a sensative topic? The pro-deathers are celebrating.

Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 6:48 PM


Pat Robertson 6:25PM

Small world. Someone by the name of Randall Terry posted this exact same thing.

Made it over to the militia blog yet??

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 6:48 PM


Heather and Mary,

Isnt it a co-incidence that Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Randall Terry and Phyllis Shafley have all been posting exactly the same thing?

I cant say I am surprised the trolls are here. After all Jill's blog is well known.

They claim we are the ones full of hate but what would you call that post?

And Heather it's beyond believe what people will say and do isnt it?

Arent they glad though that their Moms were pro life?

Posted by: Joanne at June 3, 2009 6:57 PM


Joanne, sure. Pro-deathers all like to play the same game. It's called trying to play God, and they will decide who lives or dies. How many pro-deathers do you hear promoting adoption or keeping the child? They want death.

Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 7:01 PM


They all want death for an unborn child, but they sure do love being utter control freaks in their own skin.

Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 7:04 PM


"Isnt it a co-incidence that Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Randall Terry and Phyllis Shafley have all been posting exactly the same thing?"

It was "Randell Terry" not "Randall", for the record. :)

Posted by: Janet at June 3, 2009 7:05 PM


I agree with you Heather. Adoption is not an option.

And it's disgusting these trolls are using the names of James Dobson and Pat Robertson among others.

Truly evil.

Posted by: Joanne at June 3, 2009 7:10 PM


Well, now Randall Terry has posted.... I stand corrected.... :^b

Posted by: Janet at June 3, 2009 7:11 PM


Glenn Beck too. :^I

Posted by: Janet at June 3, 2009 7:13 PM


These clowns ought to be doing their own 'infomercials' on the home shopping network.

The 'non-descript' building looks like some facilities I have seen in the poor parts of border towns in Mexico (perdoname mis amigos).

It has the look of a bordello I once saw in another life.

Shade tree mechanics and back alley butchers.

yor bro ken

yor bro ken.

Posted by: kbhvac at June 3, 2009 8:44 PM


Wow, this is a veritable bunch of sick 'n' crazy gathered here. Since you all got "Tiller the Killer," you've decided that you're going to go after this Carhart chap. I'm waiting for y'all to come up with some slogan that expresses your utter murderousness while at the same time is both short and cutesy.

So what will it be? "Carhart the Tar Heart"? It doesn't have quite the ring of "Tiller the Killer," does it? Don't think that it would quite do the trick, when said over and over and over again for more than two decades, to finally inflame a mentally unstable fanatic to take a weapon and kill the doctor in question.

No, you all have to think of something different, I'm sure.

(Oh yes, that's my real name up there. Having tangled with $cientologists in the past, I am absolutely unafraid of confronting you people.)

Posted by: Deana Holmes at June 3, 2009 9:01 PM


Deana: what else would you name someone who personally claimed responsibility for the deaths (and keep in mind that he BRAGGED about this) of at least 60,000 unborn children? That sounds like a serial killer to me. Except he did his killing under the 'guise of a "legal" law.

That's enough children to populate a small sized city.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at June 3, 2009 9:05 PM


Deana,

Tangling with us? Aren't you courageous. Go to the militia websites and tell them what you think of them spawning the likes of Roeder.
Come on, show us what you're made of!
Let's see some real courage.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 9:08 PM


(Oh yes, that's my real name up there. Having tangled with $cientologists in the past, I am absolutely unafraid of confronting you people.)

Posted by: Deana Holmes at June 3, 2009 9:01 PM

------------------------------------------------------

Deanna,

You have nothing to fear but fear herself/himself.

What are you going to do for your next death defying act?

Leap over a book of matches in a single bound?

Who made you sheriff of the kingdom?

May we see your badge?

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at June 3, 2009 9:17 PM


"Carhart the Tar Heart"

That'll work.

Posted by: Janet at June 3, 2009 9:34 PM


JA 9:41PM

Any outrage for the soldier that was killed in a terrorist attack by an Islamic "jihadist"?

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 9:44 PM


JA,

Would you take your wife, sister, girlfriend, or daughter to Carhart's clinic?

I mean, look at those port o potties and that electrical generator.

Would you take your dog there?

Come on, give us an honest answer.

Posted by: Mary at June 3, 2009 9:47 PM


Trolls are showing up here because if you do a google search at least one pro abortion blog has posted about this.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 3, 2009 10:05 PM


Sorry the anonymous post above was mine.

Posted by: Joanne at June 3, 2009 10:07 PM


Surprise, this is actually a pretty balanced article.

JUNE 4, 2009
Common Ground on Late-Term Abortion: Anguish
The Killing of Dr. George Tiller Has Rekindled an Old Debate, but Partisans on Both Sides Acknowledge Each Other's Pain
By STEPHANIE SIMON

(excerpt)
Dr. Tiller's killing has pushed some young doctors to commit to a career in abortion. Lisa Hofler, a medical student at Emory University, had been mulling over the idea for some time despite her husband's concern for her safety. Now, she said, she's determined to offer abortions as part of her practice.

Still, she expects to limit her practice to first-trimester abortions. She doesn't feel comfortable, she said, pushing the boundaries.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124407988050683807.html

I'm wondering which boundary would that be? The one between life and death?

Posted by: Janet at June 3, 2009 10:19 PM


Baker:

Calling the kettle black, huh, frying pan?

Seems like you're calling for harm to Jill.

Well let something happen to her and we'll know where to point the FBI and the Justice Department.

What is your IP Address? Oh, Jill has it? Good.

Isn't this all so silly?

Jill didn't want Tiller murdered, she just wants the murder of innocent children to stop. Excuse me, why don't you?

What would you give your life for Baker?

Jill's giving hers for children.

Posted by: HisMan at June 3, 2009 10:37 PM


I call him Car Heartless.

Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 10:55 PM


JA BAKER, A George Carlin lover. Say no more.

Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 11:00 PM


Sandy 4:45 p.m.

In response to your request to Lauren for the #'s of healthy third trimester babies aborted by Tiller, here's some insider info from a now pro-life former employee of his: http://prolifeaction.org/providers/tivis.htm


Posted by: klynn73 at June 3, 2009 11:19 PM


First of all, it's "Deana," not "Deanna." If you're going to use the name, please scroll up and spell it correctly, thanks a bunch.

Second, I'm not a troll. I'm deadly earnest when I ask you and yours what kind of cutesy but deadly name you're going to come up to express your true sentiments towards Dr. Carhart.

Speaking of "tar hearts," there's a real collection of black ones here. You people claim that there's no danger for me here...tell that to Dr. Tiller. Oh yeah, he's dead, after two-plus decades of allegedly pro-life people calling him "Tiller the Killer."

I sincerely hope that the federal and state governments are keeping track of the statements being made here. Because I have no doubt in my mind that you people still harbor murder in your hearts.

And while I think Woody Allen is a creepy sleazebag and jerk, he had you guys pinned decades ago when he had his character in "Hannah and Her Sisters say, "If Jesus came back and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up." Think about it.

Posted by: Deana Holmes at June 3, 2009 11:32 PM


Deana,

I have to agree w/your WA quote, particularly the concept of offering baptism (in Jesus' name) of the babies you've just murdered in one's "late-term abortion package". But the quote's flawed in that it assumes He's somehow not seeing what's happening now. As for harboring murder in our hearts, hmm, nope, (welcome to the blog by the way) can't agree with you there. Exposing what sort of work Tiller did (& his colleagues do) is not a justification for his death, nor a call for theirs; the central tenet pro-lifers embrace is that ALL life is valuable, including that of the abortionists. This is not how any of us wanted the George Tiller story to end. I'd have preferred he become another Dr. Bernard Nathanson who realized the 75,000 deaths he presided over were murders of innocents, sought and found repentance in Jesus Christ and has been instrumental in the pro-life movement.

Posted by: klynn73 at June 4, 2009 12:25 AM


OK Deana...so since you are so fearful for Carhart's safety and security, why don't you pack your bags, move to Wichita and you can be Carhart's personal security guard?

Perhaps you can be of further assistance to him inside the clinic (where he's REALLY safe from the likes of us ) by helping him clean up the arms, legs and heads of the babies after he's dismembered them. I've heard that even his own "highly trained and skilled staff members" don't even like to do that.

You must be mighty fierce and a force to be reckoned with if even Scientologists are scared of you !

Posted by: Mike at June 4, 2009 1:49 AM


OK Deana...so since you are so fearful for Carhart's safety and security, why don't you pack your bags, move to Wichita and you can be Carhart's personal security guard?

Perhaps you can be of further assistance to him inside the clinic (where he's REALLY safe from the likes of us ) by helping him clean up the arms, legs and heads of the babies after he's dismembered them. I've heard that his own "highly trained and skilled staff members" don't even like to do that.

You must be mighty fierce and a force to be reckoned with if even Scientologists are scared of you !

Posted by: Mike at June 4, 2009 1:52 AM


Posted by: Deana Holmes at June 3, 2009 11:32 PM
-------

Welcome to the blog Deana.

I appreciate your using your real name. I use my full name because I stand behind what I say.

I have a question for you though - you came in here claiming that you're not a troll, however what I'm seeing in your posts are direct accusations about those who are commenting.

How does that make you any different than those you accuse?

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at June 4, 2009 6:26 AM


Here's a site that has a lot of information specific to Tiller. *

Some of the stories are really heartbreaking.


http://www.dr-tiller.com/elective.htm

Posted by: Lauren at June 3, 2009 5:17 PM------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey Lauren, I'm glad you found this site. I'd seen it before, but I couldn't find it. OMG, did you read some of the stories from the patients???? The one young lady said that while in labor, Carhart and Edna Roche threw her into the back seat of Carhart's car. They drove her from the hotel to the AB clinic to deliver. She was in severe pain and Edna blasted rap music on the ride! I'm just shocked. THIS is healthcare??

Posted by: heather at June 4, 2009 7:40 AM


In one story I read, a woman learned that her fetus was diagnosed with Brittle Bone disease. She learned that her fetus was in excruciating pain and, once born, would only live a few hours. Rather than prolong its agony (and her own), she chose to abort at 21 weeks. I don't think she wanted a dead baby, but she was going to get a dead baby no matter what.

Most forms of Osteogenesis Imperfecta (Brittle Bone Disease) are non-fatal, only type two is known to be fatal (source). In fact, my former karate instructor(an adult in her late 30's/early 40's) is alive and well despite having OI.
Rachael C.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 4, 2009 8:26 AM


Rachael,
Thank you so much for all of your efforts in getting info!! I appreciate it very much that you do the research.

Posted by: Carla at June 4, 2009 8:43 AM


Alan Guttmacher Institute: An Overview of Abortion in the United States

Reasons for Abortions After
16 Weeks Since Last Menstrual Period

Woman did not realize she was pregnant 71%
Difficulty making arrangements for abortion 48%
Afraid to tell parents or partner 33%
Needed time to make decision 24%
Hoped relationship would change 8%
Pressure not to have abortion 8%
Something changed during pregnancy 6%
Didn’t know timing was important 6%
Didn’t know she could get an abortion 5%
Fetal abnormality diagnosed late 2%
Other 11%
Source: Torres and Forrest, 1988 (1987 data)

According to AGI, abortions for indication of fetal abnormaility only consists of 2% of all late term abortions.

Of the 30 original criminal complaints filed against Tiller, which is available as a PDF here, based on a review of patient records, the compelling medical reasons given in Tiller's records for these third-trimester abortions were:
Anxiety Disorder Not Otherwise Specified or Adjustment Disorder With Mixed Anxiety and Depressed Mood: 1
Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode: 9
Fetus "non-viable" but with no record of how non-viability was determined: 2
Acute Stress Disorder: 2
Anxiety Disorder Not Otherwise Specified: 1
No medical basis documented: 14

Christina at Real Choice has documented cases of late-term abortions which were elective and fatal or near fatal to the woman.

The overwhelming evidence points to the vast majority of late-term abortions are preformed for socio-economic reasons, not fetal abnormalities or endangerment to the woman's health.
Rachael C.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 4, 2009 8:46 AM


You're welcome, Carla :) Using documentation from non-biased medical sources only strengthens our argument :)
Rachael C.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 4, 2009 8:54 AM


Heather,
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, as I haven't gotten to the library lately to use the internet (have been using internet on my phone, which is limited). Thank you for the compliment on my blog. I see Elizabeth has volunteered to help you set one up. I recommend using either Blogger or Livejournal as both have great features and are easy for a new user to use. Best of luck and please share the link with us when you get it set up :)
Rachael C.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 4, 2009 9:25 AM


I sincerely hope that the federal and state governments are keeping track of the statements being made here. Because I have no doubt in my mind that you people still harbor murder in your hearts.

And while I think Woody Allen is a creepy sleazebag and jerk, he had you guys pinned decades ago when he had his character in "Hannah and Her Sisters say, "If Jesus came back and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up." Think about it.

Posted by: Deana Holmes at June 3, 2009 11:32 PM

Pro life are opposed to murder from conception to the grave. Not our right to judge and murder.

I am not being judgemnetal, but girls if you have to swing by and pay a visit to Carhart's place for restablishing your figure, just a reminder, take a fly swatter and some extra wipes. The outdoor facilities get used by the neighborhood and they may be short on paper. You know tough times. I doubt carhart has a fly swatter in his clinic. He has sterile gloves on.

Posted by: xppc at June 4, 2009 1:05 PM


I will help in any way possible, Heather. However, I recommend staying away from LiveJournal or Blogger (or any of the free blogging software).... you don't truly *own* your own work and if TPTB find it *offensive* and Blogger is owned by Google which is highly pro-Obama (not a problem, I still use and love Google, but we may disagree on what is offensive) you may find a lot of work done and then lost.

I use a system that was very easy to use if you have a little help with it, very inexpensive, and you own your own work and site. It's well worth the little bit extra for that.

Seriously, Heather, any time you want. Email me and I'll give you my cell phone #.

Posted by: Elisabeth at June 4, 2009 2:07 PM


You all stand in judgement but be warned: some of us are ready to stand and be counted too.

Posted by: Big Herb Dickerson at June 4, 2009 2:44 PM


Posted by: Carla at June 3, 2009 3:12 PM
You would force others to endure your "ideal infant death scenarios". It sounds painful and extraneous to me. It's better to end the potential life before it is self aware. You are projecting your values on a fetus/baby. What's worse is you would force others to adhere to your ideology.

Posted by: Deleted at June 4, 2009 4:19 PM


I want to add that, what you are doing is promoting more and more people to be against pro-lifers. Everytime you do something like post pictures, name and addresses of third term abortionist, you push more and more people to be against you. Everytime you protest outside an abortion clinic someone is walking by, making an instant decision that they don't want any part of hate. Dr. Tiller being shot has only one good thing to come about it, and thats more people will break away from the pro life/anti choice estabilishment, and see what is actually at the core of your organization.

Posted by: Chloe at June 4, 2009 4:22 PM


I am having an abortion tomorrow.....I don't feel bad, I cant take care of the baby, i dont want it, it was the result of a rape and I refuse to carry a monsters baby in me for 9 months and give it to someone else to raise. I am a medical student (2nd year resident) and have participated in providing abortions. I have seen what comes out after an abortion and it in no way,shape,or form resembles a human being, it is a pile of cells and blood. If you all believe in the bible and feel that you are advocating for god by judging these people, i do recall from my bible studies that no one has the right to judge their fellow man, only god can judge us. So maybe you should all shut your mouths on that part! If you dont agree with abortion, that is your choice and you are welcome to petition the government to change the laws, to peacefully protest and express your opinions about how wrong you feel it is. But none of you are god, therefore you have no right to judge the choices of others, what I do is my bussiness to settle with god, not yours.......

Posted by: Kris at June 4, 2009 4:24 PM


Thanks, Jill. All the stories in the news and blogs about how women needed late tri abortions and got them sickens, we just know they're lying. Now we have names and photos we can follow for the other baby-killers, we can make sure they meet the same end as Tiller. Good work, Jill. Lock and load!

Posted by: Richard at June 4, 2009 4:38 PM


Kris, An abortion does not look like a clump of cells.

Posted by: heather at June 4, 2009 4:44 PM


You yourself are a medical provider Heather???? you have witnessed the procedure??? Well, in light of your obvious medical expertise, please share your expieriences with the group by all means.......

Posted by: Kris at June 4, 2009 4:47 PM


Heather, how do you know?

Also for Richard an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Posted by: Chloe at June 4, 2009 4:47 PM


Heather, how do you know?

Also for Richard an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 4, 2009 4:49 PM


Heather, how do you know?

Also for Richard an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 4, 2009 4:49 PM


Kris, it is not a pile of cells. It is a human being and I highly doubt you have actually witnessed an abortion if you are unable to admit that there is more to it than that.

I am sorry about your rape, there are several of us on here who have been raped. I am even more sorry that you are willing to kill your child because of something that his or her father did.

Kris, this is a pro-life blog where we have come together to support precisely those activities that you are stating we should do... petition the government, protest and express our opinions. We did not seek you out in order to "judge" you or do anything else in regards to your specific situation. If you come to a prolife blog you must anticipate that the people who frequent it are, for the most part, prolife and therefore do not agree with your decision in this matter.

If you are as set on this as you claim to be, why did you come here? Does it change your decision? Do you feel some need to throw your ability to kill your child in the face of those who disagree with you? If so, why? Do you want one of us to say, "It's okay, we understand, go ahead..."? We do understand, some of us intimately understand. We just disagree with your conclusion and fear for your long-term health, both mental and physical should you go through with this. We will pray for you during this difficult time. We do pray for your child's sake that you will reconsider.

Posted by: Elisabeth at June 4, 2009 4:51 PM


I am a medical provider, Kris. I have seen ultrasounds of children at all stages of development from the first weeks on. I do not participate in abortions, this is true. However, it has been a part of my job to care for women after miscarriages and after fetal demises at all stages of development and so I do know what children look like from conception to full term birth.

You are incorrect. We will pray for you and for your child.

Posted by: Elisabeth at June 4, 2009 4:54 PM


Elisabeth you are a very good writer, I am not Kris but the reason I came here and posted was because of Jill. And I am wondering why you are supporting this woman considering the following?

Stanek has claimed that "domestic violence is acceptable against women who have abortions".

She is among those opponents of abortion who also believe that the use of birth control pills is the equivalent of "killing" children.

Many pro-life activists have also criticised Stanek for avoiding arrest or jail time for her anti-abortion activities.

You seem like a very smart person, and am wondering why your supporting and also posting on Jill's website?

Posted by: Anonymous at June 4, 2009 4:58 PM


This is rediculous. Saying that it's never medically accurate is a lie. Kansas law REQUIRED abortions to be MEDICALLY necessary before Tiller was allowed to preform them, and Tiller MAINTAINED a WAITING LIST of those who wanted to adopt the babies he couldn't legally abort. One of the reasons for late term abortions of which I've heard is a disorder called Anencephelay.

"Anencephaly is a cephalic disorder that results from a neural tube defect that occurs when the cephalic (head) end of the neural tube fails to close, usually between the 23rd and 26th day of pregnancy, resulting in the absence of a major portion of the brain, skull, and scalp[1]. Children with this disorder are born without a forebrain, the largest part of the brain consisting mainly of the cerebral hemispheres (which include the isocortex, which is responsible for higher level cognition, i.e., thinking). The remaining brain tissue is often exposed—not covered by bone or skin."

These babies are going to die regardless of whether or not they are aborted. The parent often chooses to terminate the pregnancy in order to protect, not just get rid of like most people assume. And it's never an easy decision to make. Often it isn't diagnosed until later on in the pregnancy, and due to laws and restrictions that make it difficult to obtain abortions anywhere, it pushes the woman even later along in her pregnancy before she is finally able to go through with the procedure. All this hateful rhetoric just makes an already painful, devestating procvess that much worse. Aren't these the people you're trying to reach out to? Why should they listen to you?

Posted by: Taylor at June 4, 2009 5:00 PM


Okay Elisabeth, lemme quote....

"Kris, this is a pro-life blog where we have come together to support precisely those activities that you are stating we should do... petition the government, protest and express our opinions. We did not seek you out in order to "judge" you or do anything else in regards to your specific situation."


Then why am I reading comments like this:
"Now we have names and photos we can follow for the other baby-killers, we can make sure they meet the same end as Tiller. Good work, Jill. Lock and load!" -Richard

Posted by: Taylor at June 4, 2009 5:07 PM


Elisabeth, I will e-mail you...:]

Posted by: heather at June 4, 2009 5:08 PM


Anonymous, please use a name so that I might address you properly.

As a long time reader of Jill's writings, you have mischaracterized some of her positions. In addition, I come here not only for Jill and the information provided, but also to "meet up with" and discuss issues with both friends and respected "opponents". Iron sharpens iron, as the Bible says, and it assists me in finding words for my thoughts to have to discuss them with those who agree with me, those who agree with me partially, and those who disagree with me.

I do not require every blog that I read to hold 100% of the exact same positions I hold on every single issue. Are there any two human beings who hold precisely the same position on every aspect of everything? I doubt it.

I don't think it makes much sense to criticise Jill based on the fact that other people criticise her. She has her role to play. Others have been called to different roles. Some of us are called to sidewalk counseling, others to working in CPCs. Some of us disseminate information and report on situations as they happen, while yet others take part in those situations. Each role is valuable to the whole. It is not my place to determine what role Jill is called to play. It is my place to listen to God and do what He would have me do and allow her to do the same.

I love my fellow posters on here dearly, even some of whom I disagree with vehemently.

Oh, and by the way, I happen to agree that there is a risk of a conceived child failing to implant when BCPs/IUDs are used. It is up to each family to determine if that risk falls within/without their faith and acceptable risk. For me, my family does not use artificial birth control of any type. For me, the risk is too great.

My feelings for these materials used by others has more to do with my mandate as a health care provider to provide complete information and I do not feel that this full and complete information is always provided to all patients.

Posted by: Elisabeth at June 4, 2009 5:09 PM


Kris, I've seen plenty of pictures of aborted babies. Do you have any pics you would like to show me? If not, I'll keep believeing the ones I see. I'm willing to look. So POST EM!

Posted by: heather at June 4, 2009 5:10 PM


Taylor, anencephalic babies are born all of the time and live anywhere from a few moments to a few months. Abortion does not fix the problem. Abortion in a situation such as Tiller/Carhart's clinic can provide grave consequences for parents in terms of their ability to receive appropriate counseling. If you read the methods used, they also risk future fertility and cervical incompetence. The amount of laminaria that Tiller used without appropriate supervision is medical malpractice and he should have had his license revoked on that basis alone.

As for Richard, anyone can come on here and post anything. I wouldn't be surprised in the least to find out that some in the pro-choice movement are coming on here posting inflammatory statements in order to make the pro-life movement look bad. I am not familiar with this poster, which means he isn't a regular (at least under that name). I speak for myself, and I repeat... Kris came here. We didn't seek her out. I'm glad she came. I will pray for her.

Posted by: Elisabeth at June 4, 2009 5:14 PM


I expected this backlash. Went out to the abortion clinic today, and 2 teens got out of their car. The girls looked at us and one screamed, "You guys like to kill doctors in churches!"

Posted by: heather at June 4, 2009 5:17 PM


Thanks to you also Rachel C.!

Posted by: heather at June 4, 2009 5:20 PM


Elisabeth thank you for enlightening me. But I must debate you on the remark Jill made on domestic violence. That comment in and of itself shows that Jill probably doesn't think much of a woman making up her own mind, and if that is not what she means she must expand on it.

Also I have heard many pro-lifers talk about how they do not use "artifical birth control", and many believe sex education should not be taught in school. Don't you see the problem with that? How a woman whose parents could be like you, would want to seek out an abortion, if she was unmarried or young?

Posted by: Anonymous at June 4, 2009 5:22 PM


Anon, I know you weren't addressing me, but when did Jill advocate Domestic Violence? I've been off and on for 3 years. Can you refresh my memory?

Posted by: heather at June 4, 2009 5:28 PM


I wonder why you protest outside abortion clinics? Don't you think you could get farther by protesting at your state house or governors office? I grew up very close to an abortion clinic (which was blown up) and I must say that it had a profound affect on me. Probably the reason I am pro-choice, seeing the signs, the things pro life side would say to these woman (no I am not a troll, nor do I work for any pro-choice organization). I just would like you to see things from a different side, not meaning I am trying to change your opinion but instead asking why you do the things you do.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 4, 2009 5:29 PM


Stanek has claimed that "domestic violence is acceptable against women who have abortions".

She is among those opponents of abortion who also believe that the use of birth control pills is the equivalent of "killing" children.

Many pro-life activists have also criticised Stanek for avoiding arrest or jail time for her anti-abortion activities.

You seem like a very smart person, and am wondering why your supporting and also posting on Jill's website?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 4, 2009 4:58 PM
******************

First off, anon, please choose a moniker. Anonymous comments will be deleted.

Secondly, it's so inspiring to know that you can use Wikipedia and think it a reliable source for your information. Especially the entries which are under dispute for neutrality. ;)

You seem like a smart person. How about you give us some proof of these allegations? Quotes from Jill, etc.

Posted by: Kel at June 4, 2009 5:34 PM


Heather, I believe this is the correct article.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200808220022

this is the quote: "domestic violence is acceptable against women who have abortions".

Posted by: Anonymous at June 4, 2009 5:36 PM


Sorry Kel.

Kel here is the article about "The Pill that Kills" written by Jill Stanek. Also Kel I don't think you need to get snippy with me, I really and truely am trying to understand your side.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=66215

Posted by: Jane at June 4, 2009 5:43 PM


Then why am I reading comments like this:
"Now we have names and photos we can follow for the other baby-killers, we can make sure they meet the same end as Tiller. Good work, Jill. Lock and load!" -Richard
Posted by: Taylor at June 4, 2009 5:07 PM
******************************

Interesting, Taylor. Just when did you record that particular comment? I've not seen it. However, we have received similar comments to that effect, one of them signed with the name of Tiller's murderer. No simple task, since the man is incarcerated and the comment was posted just hours ago.

See, Taylor, around here, we have people known as "trolls." These people come to this (and other websites) simply to stir up trouble and slander pro-lifers.

Regular posters here haven't posted such things.

BTW, saying that Jill has given out information about Carhart is ridiculous. The information is available through any search engine, with maps to his clinic. Posting about it on a blog or any other news site isn't going to make it any more or less visible than it currently is. Hello, the man runs an abortion business! He's on the internet He provides online maps to his facility! This whole thing is purposely being overblown to demonize Jill and other pro-lifers.

Jill was not the first to post about Carhart, the mainstream media was.
Yahoo: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090603/ap_on_re_us/us_the_next_tiller

Will you all be lambasting Yahoo and the Associated Press for reporting that Carhart wants to take over for Tiller, as well?

Posted by: Kel at June 4, 2009 5:55 PM


Jane, thanks for choosing a moniker. I do tend to get a little snippy when people don't do their research before they make unfounded statements based on skewed sources.

Jill is against the Pill for various reasons, as are many on this site. However, the claims regarding domestic violence are what you emphasized, and they are wholly incorrect.

The article to which Wiki is referring is this one: http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54486 which quotes a famous scene from a Godfather movie. The quote in which it is *taken out of context* that she approves of violence is this one:

"That spontaneous slap was the reaction of a real man who a woman had just told she aborted his baby. Compare that to the modern day cowardly male response, 'It's your choice. Whatever you decide, I'll support you.' Or worse, his threat to abandon her if she does not abort.

It was this fierce devotion to family that strangely endeared us to the Corleone men despite their otherwise heinous behavior.

In fact, Mafiosos aside, the Italian culture has always evoked thoughts of large, loving families.

No longer. Legalized abortion has poisoned Italy." Notice, she identified their behavior as "heinous."

Now, if you or anyone else wants to read that as saying she advocates violence, you are really reaching. This is why the information on Wiki is under dispute. MediaMatters, in all of its "non-biased reporting" chose to take Jill out of context to advance its skewed views.

Posted by: Kel at June 4, 2009 6:09 PM


By the way, Jane, I notice the Media Matters article has no actual quote from Jill regarding the domestic violence issue. It simply states that she advocates it. The WND story I referred you to is the one they've chosen to take out of context, so there you can read what she *actually* said for yourself.

Posted by: Kel at June 4, 2009 6:18 PM


No, I have no fear that my daughters will want abortions. And very few pro-lifers are against actual sex education... we're just against what parades as sex education too many times today. My daughters and my sons are fully aware of where babies come from, how they are made, and what is required to avoid making them (abstinence). They also know what is taught as "birth control", they know it is a misnomer, and they know it is not 100% reliable.

My daughter is fully aware of the joys and responsibilities of parenthood as the oldest of seven siblings. She is choosing at this time to have a wide variety of friends and no boyfriends because she has goals that are important to her to reach prior to having children. She also knows that if she were to end up pregnant, we would support her during the pregnancy and help in any way possible to ensure that she finished her full educational pathway so that she could provide a good future for her and for her child/ren. She is ardently prolife having witnessed the ultrasounds and births of all of her siblings. She is also extremely close to her aunt who is only one year older who has DS and is aware of the children with medical needs that I care for and therefore does not believe that children should be aborted for so-called "fetal defects".

We are a very open family and discuss all of this regularly. Why do people assume that prolifers do not discuss sex, birth control, pregnancy, decision making, etc., with their children? The only difference is that my children will not be told, "You're having sex? Here. Use this so you don't get knocked up"... because I know there is a good chance that given typical use (and even worse, typical use of teenagers!) pregnancy would be the inevitable result.

I assure you, I have never read any comment of Jill's that could be construed as advocating domestic violence. I would require an actual quote and citation for where it came from, not a report of a report that says she said it before believing it to be true.

Posted by: Elisabeth at June 4, 2009 6:29 PM


The reason that people protest outside of abortion clinics is that is where abortions take place. Does that seriously need to be pointed out?

Posted by: Elisabeth at June 4, 2009 6:33 PM


If you aid and abet murderers, or try to incite other potential murderers, you can't honestly call yourself "pro-life."
The only "crime" Dr. Tiller committed was believing what millions of other Americans believe--and legally practicing his beliefs. He did not deserve to be executed at his place of worship simply because he did not agree with your fringe religious beliefs.
Since you are attempting to terrorize other doctors away from performing perfectly legal medical procedures, you should be investigated--and prosecuted--as a domestic terrorist.
And, finally, for some of the commenters here, if you're so anxious for the murder of other abortion providers, if it is a virtue in your twisted set of mores, then why can't you just be honest about it? You want to defend posting the personal information about other abortion providers on a site that is known to fan the flames of anti-abortion rhetoric, and then you want to pretend that you can't imagine how that would encourage someone to violence? I thought lying was a sin--but then, again, I thought murder was one too. Silly me.

Posted by: concerned one at June 4, 2009 8:38 PM


@KelThat spontaneous slap was the reaction of a real man who a woman had just told she aborted his baby. Compare that to the modern day cowardly male response, "It's your choice. Whatever you decide, I'll support you." Or worse, his threat to abandon her if she does not abort.

And you approve of this? That slapping your wife instead of supporting her makes you a real man instead of a coward? That modern men are either cowards for supporting their wives or abusive ones who will force her to abort? Talk about a false dichotomy that has nothing to do with reality.

The context or the full quote doesn't actually make it much better. My conclusion is that Jill has a warped view on modern men, and that she can keep her 'real men', seeing as, according to her, they come in the guise of abusive and controlling men like Michael Corleone, to whom their families are something they control, not cherish.

Posted by: PA at June 4, 2009 8:51 PM


Anon, Kansas law says: substantial and irreversible bodily harm. Subsequent definitions have included "metal health" as bodily harm. Reasons cited in Tiller's records included: unable to attend a rock concert, unable to play H.S. sports

Okay, this kind of claim is so obviously meant to sway people's emotions that if it were actually true, you'd have a cite for it. Without one, you just make yourself look ridiculous.

Posted by: Amy at June 4, 2009 9:24 PM


And you approve of this? That slapping your wife instead of supporting her makes you a real man instead of a coward?

****************************

No, I do not approve of slapping one's wife, and neither does Jill. The point (as you already know) was to point out that the man actually cared enough to be angry that his wife would do such a thing to their unborn child, and many of today's men simply don't care if their significant others abort, and often they "demand" that they abort to "save" the relationship.

"The comparison That modern men are either cowards for supporting their wives or abusive ones who will force her to abort? Talk about a false dichotomy that has nothing to do with reality."

Actually, we see it all the time in counseling situations. Very common. I'd say coercing a woman to abort is pretty controlling.

The context or the full quote doesn't actually make it much better. My conclusion is that Jill has a warped view on modern men" and that she can keep her 'real men', seeing as, according to her, they come in the guise of abusive and controlling men like Michael Corleone, to whom their families are something they control, not cherish."
Posted by: PA at June 4, 2009 8:51 PM

**********************************

Well, you missed the point of her blog (purposely or just out of ignorance, I'm not sure).

If a man does not object to his wife aborting their child, does he "cherish" his family?

I notice you "overlooked" the part where she called the act "heinous." Not that I'm surprised. Have a good evening.

Posted by: Kel at June 4, 2009 9:47 PM


As far as your last question goes, by definition, no, it would not be an abortion because abortion involves killing, and one can not kill something that is already dead. If a D&E was proposed in your above scenario on an already dead fetus, I would be willing to hear some reasons why that should be permitted. It seems to be somewhat of a disrespect for the body of the deceased, but if it is a matter of disrespect of the body of the deceased vs. a higher percentage of saving another's life, I tend to lean towards wanting to do what can be done to save a life.

Um. 'Scuse me. You're talking about a dead fetus. You'd be "willing" to hear reasons why it might be a good idea to perform a D & E to remove it? You're saying IF it's done to save another's life?

Are you actually suggesting that the need to remove a dead fetus from a woman is not in and of itself sufficient reason to perform that procedure?

Posted by: Greg at June 4, 2009 9:50 PM


Thanks Jill I was wondering where the other two were located just in case I needed them. Because I trust women, I believe abortion on demand, without apology.

Ta, Ta.

Posted by: Jackie at June 4, 2009 9:52 PM


If you aid and abet murderers, or try to incite other potential murderers, you can't honestly call yourself "pro-life."

Care to list examples of how we've "aided and abetted murderers" here?


He did not deserve to be executed at his place of worship simply because he did not agree with your fringe religious beliefs.

No, he should not have been murdered. The act, in my opinion (and in the opinions of most pro-lifers) is inexcusable and cannot be justified. It was a despicable act.

Since you are attempting to terrorize other doctors away from performing perfectly legal medical procedures, you should be investigated--and prosecuted--as a domestic terrorist.

How are "we" attempting to terrorize other doctors? Could you please list examples of how we on this blog have done so? Those who have done such hateful acts in the past were rightfully prosecuted when caught, were they not? By the way, praying in front of a clinic is not "terrorism."

And, finally, for some of the commenters here, if you're so anxious for the murder of other abortion providers, if it is a virtue in your twisted set of mores, then why can't you just be honest about it?

Well, let's see, we've stated that we're NOT anxious for the murder of anyone (repeatedly), and yet you seem to want to believe that we do. It appears that you are projecting your own dishonesty on to this blog's commenters.

You want to defend posting the personal information about other abortion providers on a site that is known to fan the flames of anti-abortion rhetoric, and then you want to pretend that you can't imagine how that would encourage someone to violence?

Please list the "personal information" about abortion providers that has been published on this blog. Oh, wait... you can't, because it's all public knowledge. No personal info has been listed. The location of the clinic is well-known and Dr. Carhart has maps online from his own website. But nice try.

I thought lying was a sin--but then, again, I thought murder was one too. Silly me.
Posted by: concerned one at June 4, 2009 8:38 PM

No one has lied. Nice try, though. And yes, murder is a grave sin. Along with slander and bearing false witness. Have a good evening.

Posted by: Kel at June 4, 2009 10:00 PM


And by the way, the majority of this article is from the AP. How many of you pro-choicers have written and harassed the Associated Press for writing their piece on Tiller and Carhart?

Anyone? ...

Bueller?

Posted by: Kel at June 4, 2009 10:08 PM


Welcome the trolls. The veiws per day should go up because the Tiller publicity drives googling information. People can see and learn her. They get truthfull posts deleted at liberal newspapers.
Jill has high standards. No cussing and attacking of others and the truth is important.

Posted by: xppc at June 3, 2009 1:38 PM

But calling someone "Tiller the killer" is fair game, and posting links insinuating that abortionists are akin to hitler.... also okay.

Posted by: Yo La Tengo at June 4, 2009 10:23 PM


By publishing the location of the doctors you oppose because they performs late-term abortions is tantamount to painting a target on their backs.

You will, no doubt, hide behind the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, which is your right, but just because you can do or say something, does not make it right or moral.

I fought, at the risk of my life, your right to express your opinion, an opinion I will spend my lifetime opposing. The law of the land is Roe vs. Wade. The Supreme Court has spoken. Feel free to appeal until the ruling is overturned. Feel free to petition your government to change the law, but do not engage in irresponsible actions that could get people kiled.

You are a bunch of "true believers" and there is nothing more dangerous than true believers. Nazis were true believers. Al Qaeda is a bunch of true believers. The religious zealots that burned "witches" at the stake in Salem were true believers. Intolerance of alternative viewpoints to the point of placing them in jeopardy, which I believe is a willfull and malicious act on your part, is not something for which I risked my life.

If any of these doctors are killed or injured and it can be, in any way, traced back to your exercising your Freedom of Speech, you should be charged with Accessories before the fact.

Posted by: Bill at June 4, 2009 10:27 PM


Bill, Jill hasn't posted the addresses. The AP has. Take your beef up with them. BTW, take it up with the abortionists themselves... their own websites post their addresses.

Posted by: Elisabeth at June 4, 2009 11:15 PM


Good, decent, rational human beings do not achieve their goals through violence and harrassment.

But terrorism is evidently fine as long as it's being used by someone waving an American flag and thumping a bible, eh?

You are truly disgusting people.

Posted by: Amy at June 5, 2009 12:22 AM


It saddens me to see how truly misinformed 99% of you anti-choice folks are.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 5, 2009 1:11 AM


It saddens me to see how truly misinformed 99% of you anti-choice folks are.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 5, 2009 1:12 AM


Good answer as to Olberman, I think he's a jerk anyway but fun to watch once a month to see how stupid he can be. I'm independent and liked your answer so I looked you up. I agree there whole world (abortchuraries) is to bring in more business, kooks included. Actually that is one of the main criteria. As you said they advertise. But not providing the service means the young girls will just go back to the hangers. I don't agree with it, but there is a need for it sadly. But before you think of abortion, think of this.
The baby you kill may be the next Doctor that cures Cancer??

Daniel ............ Toronto, Canada

Posted by: Daniel at June 5, 2009 2:22 AM


"Abortion Stops a Beating Heart". Sure does, if they do it right!

Posted by: iamevolved at June 5, 2009 6:16 AM


TAKE A GOOD LOOK at that excuse for an office and repeat after me, "I'm SO glad abortion is legal so women don't have to get them in back alleys."


Posted by: Patrick at June 5, 2009 12:19 PM


Quoth "Cranky Catholic":

Why would a hospital doctor refuse to perform a late-term abortion on a deformed fetus?

Probably because hospitals, med students & doctors have been brow-beaten, stigmatized and terrorized into not providing those types of abortions or any others.

Just a guess.

Posted by: Jason at June 5, 2009 4:16 PM


You are deplorable for posting pictures of this doctor and his facilities. What gives you the right to force your beliefs upon others?

Posted by: Kelly at June 5, 2009 6:56 PM


silly americans, pro life but willing to kill for it.
the richest country in the world spending the lowest amount of money to third world countries and pretend to care about life.
A kid dies each 3 seconds of hunger.
Half your youth is addicted to some kind of drug.

Educate your children like we europeans did , no wonder we have the lowest rate of abortion aids and addicts in a country where prostution drugs and abortion are legal.
Your society can't even handle a simple gun law.

Posted by: hemaworstje at June 5, 2009 7:31 PM


Hello hemaworstje,

What country are you from? Why do you think you have lower abortion rates? Less sex? Lower fertility rates? Smarter use of birth control? Do you count emergency contraception in your abortion numbers?

Posted by: Janet at June 5, 2009 10:51 PM


"You are deplorable for posting pictures of this doctor and his facilities. What gives you the right to force your beliefs upon others?"

Posted by: Kelly at June 5, 2009 6:56 PM

Don't you think women deserve better than this? Where's your outrage over these facilities? Would you go there?

Posted by: Janet at June 5, 2009 10:53 PM


But before you think of abortion, think of this.
The baby you kill may be the next Doctor that cures Cancer??
-
Daniel, I thought of that, but then I realised that, with no public healthcare to keep my unwanted pregnancy a healthy one, my little embryo would likely be malnourished and sickly and, if it survived to term, die soon after birth.
Being a self-sufficient American gal I said, self, you can waste taxpayer's money on a baby that might grow up to be the next Hitler if it makes it, or you can go brew some rue and call that period back.

Anyway, if you really have a problem with the conditions of these doctors' offices, you know what you've go to know off. If you really want there to be less abortions, stop lying to teenage girls and telling them condoms won't work etc just to emphasize abstinence. They believe you about the condoms and so just have sex without them, and no later than their comprehensive sex-ed classmates. (John Hopkins, 2008.)
If you can't deal with abortion and can't deal with women enjoying sex, well, chill out and see if you live in The Republic of Gilead next year, yeah?

Posted by: Kit at June 6, 2009 1:16 AM


Kit,
Each of us benefits from abortion in so many ways. I never realized how awful America would be without it. Being able to have sex whenever we feel like it is sooo worth it! Thanks for commenting.

Posted by: Janet at June 7, 2009 11:21 AM


"But before you think of abortion, think of this.
The baby you kill may be the next Doctor that cures Cancer??"

Then lets argue both sides of this, shall we? That "baby you kill" may be the next Dr. Tiller.

Posted by: Pointing it out at June 10, 2009 12:16 PM


Sadly, most of the people in favor of this lunatic pro-liar will never have to face the decision to abort.

"The only moral abortion is MY abortion." Right.

Posted by: pro-choice secular humanist at June 10, 2009 2:53 PM


Yes, you are all terrorists. If you actually wanted to change laws to fit in with your fringe religious beliefs, you *would* be protesting in D.C. or in front of your local representatives' offices or at the state capitol.

But, no. You choose to go protest at medical clinics to stalk, harass, and intimidate women and doctors exercising their legal rights to do what they believe is best for them and their families. Absolutely vile. And that's what the "best" of you do.

The worst of you send death threats, vandalize and blow up clinics and blow doctors' heads off while they make soup at home or attend church.

As long as you continue to behave in this way, any claims that you make to be "pro-life" will be seen as the ridiculous lies that they are. And this anti-pill stuff just makes you look all the more loony.

Posted by: Sane at June 11, 2009 1:02 PM


Oh, and to the person who got yelled at by the teenaged girls, "you people shoot doctors in church," your point was? Crocodile tears that you can't have your cake and eat it too? Oh, we want to terrorize doctors, but we don't want to be known as those people who terrorize doctors.

Posted by: Sane at June 11, 2009 1:06 PM



You, casually, not the expert?

Posted by: LeraJenkins at June 22, 2009 4:02 AM