Jan - there have always been divisions when it comes to very serious issues. Christ made it clear that his presence would mean division even among family members.

In your discussions with those who hold opposing views, it's important to point out that you uphold their immeasurable value as human beings, and follow through by acting that way towards them. It's also very important to make it clear, there's a distinction between an objective moral wrong, and merely opinion.

It's better to place a small irritating pebble than to clobber someone over the head with rock.

Just make sure that when others fail to engage with you on this issue, are refusing to do so, because they know in their heart they are wrong, and not because you appear to care more about the issue than you do them. (Been there, done that, sharing experience.)

I have always been pro-life, but not active until the last few years. This has definitely caused a change in my friends. I simply cannot hang out with the people who were my friends before, as they do not share this belief with me.
While we have not discussed this, I know that it would be a dividing point with them, so I simply do not bring it up when we do see one another. I also suspect that one of my friends had an abortion, given the way she reacts to anything I have said. Just a feeling I have.
The others would be of the opinion that a woman has a right to choose.
I now spend time with those who have this same belief, as we share so many other things as well. Because my pro-life beliefs have become so front and centre, they do determine a lot of other choices I make. And one of those choices is who I spend time with. I simply do not wish to give time away to people with whom I would be at odds much of the time.

I have always been pro-life and everyone I come in contact with where the issue happens to come up knows it. I am very passionate in my views with my immediate family, but I try to be still passionate yet gentle when dealing with others. I have encountered people who advised me to abort when I was pregnant at seventeen years old (my father, my grandfather). It did not take long for them to understand my position.
Just the other day I had the opportunity to tell some truths about abortion where lies have been told. I listen very closely and go through the truth. I back it up with reputable references.
I have not lost friends or people close to me, but they just do not bring it up around me unless they have a question about it, which I do get often. I agree with p.p. they know in there heart they are wrong, which in turn makes it hard to talk to someone who is right.

I lost a friend...she actually was the wife of my husband's friend. They met and married and got pregnant within months. She told my husband's friend she was pregnant with his baby two weeks after they met (they had sex within an hour of meeting...yes, I know. EWWW) She miscarreid twice supposedly and then he went ahead and married her and she got pregnant a month later. She was a little strange..she liked to rub my belly a lot when I was pregnant and obsessed over getting pregnant herself.

I hung out with her because she had no friends and I tried to be sweet and kind though I found her a little odd to say the least. I had written a pro-life blog on my myspace page and when this woman saw it she sent me an angry rambling email. Finding out she'd had an abortion years earlier did not surprise me at all given her rage at my stance. You know, and you have to remind yourself, all their rage comes from the incredible guilt they carry. And they blame you for their guilt. Because you remind them that their "choice" cost them their child's life.

She had by this time given birth to a little girl who was several months old. I tried to dialogue with this woman about the ultrasounds she had had with her daughter...didn't she clearly see that her daughter was a baby within her and not some blob of tissue? She argued that her daughter was human because she had been planned and insinuated that my son had been a blob when I carried him because he had been unplanned. Which just left me scratching my head at the utter lack of logic with which this woman formulated her opinions. So I lost her "friendship" over my stand.

You have to stand firm with your pro-life convictions and without apology...at the same time you have to be loving. Remember Roe (Norma McCorvey) was won by love!

I don't want to be friends with pro-aborts. Before I became an activist, I had friends who were moderate pro-aborts. Any time they'd say something was "wrong" or "right" (i.e. animals in captivity at the county fair), I'd think, "You support dismembering babies. How can you say anything is right or wrong?"

It's hard for me to keep company with people that believe it's okay to kill other people is certain circumstances, like if I had an accident and became brain-injured. I'd much rather keep the company of people who have a moral compass and would take care of me if I were vulnerable, instead of using my vulnerability as a justification to murder me.

I alienate would-be pro-abort friends and I'm all the better for it. Not a loss at all.

I am in academia and will continue to be in academia once I graduate- I can not not be surrounded by people who support abortion.

Our Lord promised us that if we followed Him, we would be despised. If you don't ever lose any friends, you probably don't stand for anything. Everything you have including your friendships, health, family, honor and accomplishments, you will eventually lose. The only thing that lasts to eternity is your relationship with the Lord. What does it profit you to gain the (friendship of) the entire world if you lose your soul? More simply what good is a friend that doesn't respect what you think and your right to say it? That isn't being a friend. That is being a doormat to avoid conflict. Do you really want to go there? There are 6 billion people in the world. No need to be lonely.

Also, even if you lose that friend, she will still be affected by your example of faithfulness which could change her heart someday.

My aunt and I no longer speak because she took my 14 year old cousin in for an abortion (after I had just visited for Christmas earlier that year and expressed quite vocally my pro-life views, which she had professed to adamantly agree with...) If someone could lie to my face about their opposition to abortion, then actually go and help a minor in her care get one, lie about that to everyone else, admit to me finally that she did it, then refuse to give any reasoning behind having done so other than say "I had my reasons"...I do not care if she is my aunt or not, that person is someone I wish to separate myself from. That level of irresponsibility and deceit is just too much, and frankly, I'm better off not considering her to be within the realm of my family.

It's caused a lot of conflict between my husband and myself. He started out completely pro-choice, then still pro-choice but not personally, now somewhat pro-life but nowhere near as strong as my views. It still causes a bit of tension because I do spend so much time debating it with others and he just doesn't feel as strongly about it as I do, but it's gotten better and I only expect it to get more so over time.

If someone is willing to listen to me, and be genuine with me, I will debate with them and we might come to find both our views altered somewhat, to find a bridge between acceptable justice for the unborn and protection of freedoms of the born. I'm a fan of both of those things, not just one or the other. There are a few people who I've actually made friends with who say or have said some pretty terrible things about pro-lifers, but they've heard me out, came to see the matter a little more from the other side, and might not have changed their core views, but have changed their approach and are more understanding individuals now than before. Actually listening to the other side is the first step in either coming around to their view, or finding a resolution you might both see as acceptable.

My mother-in-law don't talk about it anymore. I think she needs to sort through some things after the last time she and I talked.

*My mother-in-law and I don't talk about it anymore

I think you have to deal with family and co-workers in a somewhat different way than you would with random strangers or with politicians, and perhaps differently than you would with friends.

With family and especially with co-workers, you can be sure that there will be those who feel as strongly pro-abortion/pro-choice/laissez-faire as you feel pro-life. I handle it by not making my pro-life position a wedge between us. They know that I am pro-life. They know better than to start an argument with me about the subject. I need my family. I need my job (and I work remotely, with the main office in California, which is staffed by people who were very angry about the outcome of Prop 8, including my boss and including one gay man who has a "wife" -- pro-life isn't the only thing that can become a wedge). With co-workers, if someone were to try to put me on the spot, I believe I would respond by saying that I am faithful to the teachings of the Catholic Church, and that faithfulness is not subject to negotiation. So, I'm not silent, but I'm not in-your-face about things either. I believe they need to know, and I don't believe I need to constantly tell them they are wrong. If anyone would ever ask for a respectful discussion of the matter, I'd be happy to do so, but I'm not into starting/promoting arguments that only end up destroying relationships without changing the other person -- in fact most arguments I've overheard on these matters have only served to harden the hearts of the pro-abortion/pro-choice/laissez-faire person.

With random strangers, politicians, and most of my friends (if they happen to be pro-abortion/pro-choice/laissez-faire), I pull no punches.

I am a recent convert to pro-life. I was not particularly pro-abortion before but I just didn't think it was such a big deal and didn't give the subject much thought.
A series of events in my life brought me to a deeper walk with Christ and I began to understand how wrong it was to decide to terminate a human life, something that God had willed into being.
I understood that choosing to do so meant telling God that He had made a mistake and that the woman had the right to correct that mistake.
My newfound belief has cost me some friends. Not initially, but over some months I just couldn't bear to be in the presence of people who so callously spoke of "choice". My defense of the unborn, even done in a gentle way, raised some eyebrows and that look of "here she goes again".
So now my circle of friends is much smaller but I do not regret it for an instant. Once you begin to understand how precious life is and how wrong it is to terminate it,it changes your own life forever.

People can be opposed to abortion if they want,and they have every right to express their opinions about this. But whether you think it's "right" or not is immaterial.
Sure, the US government COULD make abortion illegal, but those who think that this will"end" it
are deluding themselves. And you should remember that countries where abortion is illegal have higher abortion rates than countries which permit it. This is a fact, and you can't get around it.
Women will seek and obtain abortions whether they are legal or not,and if they are too poor to obtain illegal ones,they will try to do it themselves, with the inevitable disastrous results. You can call it "murder" if you like,
compare abortion to slavery,which is ludicrous,
and say how abortion"hurts" women, and quote phony reports about the supposed link between abortion and breast cancer.
My mother is a breast cancer survivor and she did not have any abortions.
People who are against abortion can speak out against it until they are blue in the face and spend all the time they want protesting .
But this will never stop it. Why don't they do something really productive such as campaigning for the government to provide more financial help to poor pregnant women,married or single,
so they will be less likely to seek and obtain abortions?
And when the hopelessly deluded Father Frank Pavone says"America will not reject abortion until it sees it", he doesn't know what he's talking about.
This is nothing but wishful thinking.
And more people should use contraceptives; many just aren't responsible,and many unwanted pregnancies happen.
And if the US government,under the influence of anti-abortion fanatics, were to make contraceptives illegal, this would only cause a marked INCREASE in abortions,and create a black market in them. That would be unbelievably stupid.
And the notion that private donations and charities can provide everything for poor pregnant women is just not true. Sure,I'm all for charities, and they have their place, but they can only do so much.
So please get with reality,people.
And if you don't like my pro-choice comments here, why not spend time at pro-choice websites and blogs, and give them a piece of your mind?
It's a free country after all, and you have the right to express your opinions.

80% of women going in for abortions when asked said themselves that if abortion were illegal, they just wouldn't get one.

I actually DO visit pro-abortion-choice videos on YouTube, pro-abortion-choicer's user pages, blogs, etc. Thanks for assuming we never do.

I'm sure, Mr. Berger, that you are already well aware that not all pro-lifers here favor making contraceptives illegal? If not, maybe YOU should "get with reality".

You're full of it. Are your eyes brown, Mr. Berger?

Robert Berger -

While I recognize it's poor practice to feed the trolls, I feel I need to say a few things to you (you are in my "random stranger" group).

You claim certain facts about the number of abortions in countries where are abortions are illegal, but you don't provide any numbers or cite any studies. Fail.

The changes that need to be made do not begin or end with making abortion illegal. The changes need to address restoring a proper respect for chastity and marriage.

As long as abortion is legal, it is wrong to require those of us who have a conscientious objection to abortion to participate by paying for abortions through our taxes or through a public insurance option.

The parallels between slavery and abortion are drawn as a way of pointing out that certain things that some people held as rights (owning other people) were eventually outlawed despite Supreme Court rulings (did you know that the SCOTUS never overturned the Dred Scott decision?). The parallels are not ridiculous -- you just don't like that there are parallels.

Charities and private individuals certainly can and do make a difference. Many who post here have personally financially supported women who had their children rather than abort them, and supported those women and their children after the children were born. We are not hypocritical fanatics. If we can pay $x to the government (most of which will be wasted on bureaucrat salaries) to pay for abortions, we can pay the same $x to Catholic charities that will provide alternatives to abortion and to support women and children -- without the unjustifiable overhead that the government has to support. To quote somebody else, "Yes, we can!"

As to posting on "pro-choice" sites, I prefer not to waste my time. I would rather remind politicians that the tide of popular sentiment in this country is against abortion, and that their hope of re-election will be swept away if they continue to try to oppose it.

Now that I have wasted time feeding you, I am going to go back to my regularly scheduled life with my family.

I hope God grants you better understanding. And I hope Our Lady sends all the politicians the grace of the Fear of God.

I have a very unique relationship with a good friend of mine. We met each other at our tennis club and we've been hitting partners for 3 or 4 years now. It's funny because our personalities really click, yet we couldn't be more different. I'm a Christian, he's an atheist. I'm pretty conservative politically and he's about as far left as you can get. He supports gay marriage, I don't. He supports unborn child killing and I obviously don't.

We both knew that the other was "on the other side" but we didn't know how passionate each of us was until about a month ago. We were talking after a match and he went down a list of questions that really located where I stood on several core issues.

He left pretty dejected that day, because he now knew his friend stood for everything he opposed. I think he said I was like one of those hate-filled right-wing extremists. As he was leaving, I told him that even though we disagreed on almost everything, we could still play tennis.

He didn't believe me at first, but we've gotten together several times since then and we laugh and joke and really enjoy each other's company. I tell him I don't mind hitting with a lost heathen if he doesn't mind playing with a Jesus freak.

In fact, we played tennis today (I won). I've had other friendships that weren't as strong and when I found out their position on abortion it kind of killed the relationship.

Paul the apostle said as much as possible, to walk in peace with all men. He also said that he continually sought to find some common ground with people so that he might win them to Christ (1Co 9). My friend and I love tennis, appreciate each other's sense of humor and we're both single so we talk about chicks.

Love is the key.

I've always been pro-life and argued the point when it was discussed as I would any other issue I truly believed in.
My discussions changed when I had an unplanned pregnancy at 26 -- I had my daughter. That decision alone changed relationships -- several 'friends' counseled me to abort, as they had done. When I had my baby those folks disappeared from my life.
Some of my friends continued in the, not personally pro-abort, but pro-choice category. We don't often talk about it as a group, but one-on-one it does come up. Several have moved to pro-life, especially after having children and experiencing the miracle of life themselves. They are and have always been opposite of me politically, yet as we have gotten older life experience has caused them to see Life as a moral -- not political issue.

I find that discussions about Life are most effective when taking the politics out of it. There are many people who are too partisan for their own good -- not looking at the issues on their own merit. (I have to guard myself on that too). Take the politics our of it and put the personal in and folks can have an honest conversation.

Then again, just being me and raising my 'unplanned child' does take the whole -- You are a hypocrite -- attack off the page.

Posted by: Robert Berger at August 29, 2009 4:13 PM
-------

Robert, you're wrong. Still.

Let us know when you finally learn the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.

We're claiming elective abortion is morally wrong in all circumstances, and it's not simply our opinion.

And unlike you, we simply can't pretend abortion is compassionate when in reality it is cruel.

I am in academia and will continue to be in academia once I graduate- I can not not be surrounded by people who support abortion.
Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at August 29, 2009 1:47 PM

so Bobby, how do you deal with it?
Is it not a topic for discussion?
Do people know you are very prolife and if so what is their reaction?

"We're claiming elective abortion is morally wrong in all circumstances, and it's not simply our opinion."

That's what you think.

About 98% of my friends are pro-choice, ranging from "safe, legal and rare" to "anything goes." A few are post-abortive themselves. Although my views are fairly conservative, my personality and lifestyle is more compatible with liberals, so I rarely hang out with another pro-lifer (save my husband, who used to be pro-choice until I told him I didn't date pro-aborts). Everyone who knows me knows I'm a die hard pro-lifer. A few of my closer friends are open to respectful and honest debate, and I usually come away from the discussion feeling like I learned something, and I believe they feel the same way. Most of my friends avoid the topic, so out of respect I don't try to weasel it in to the conversation. When it does accidentally come up, everyone looks really uncomfortable and glances nervously at me. I'm not sure if they're worried that I've been offended or if they think I'm going to give them a lecture, haha. I generally say a couple sentences, something that makes my stance clear while avoiding saying anything that could be taken personally, and then change the subject to something everyone can enjoy. Since most of them are very understanding and respectful of my beliefs, especially since I'm the only one on the other side, I return the favor by not constantly interjecting my opinion when I know it would only cause discomfort.

There are a few people who are friends of my friends who choose not to pursue a friendship with me because my beliefs don't align with their own. But those few are pretty hostile to anyone who disagrees with them, and will fabricate nit-picky reasons to dislike others so they don't have to admit that they refuse to associate with people who are different than them. So, although technically I have lost a few potential friends for being pro-life, I have a feeling that I'm not missing much.

If the friend walks away from the friendship because you are pro-life and that person is not, well, there is nothing you can do about that.

In my opinion, I believe that if a so-called "friend" walked away from a friendship because of a difference in beliefs, it was never a true friendship to begin with. You may have been a true friend, but the friendship was not reciprocal.

I find it hard to believe that we are in synch 100% in beliefs with our true friends. I think that there will always be a difference in some type of belief somewhere down the line.

That being said, I would never, ever, ever walk away from a friendship because that person was not pro-life. I always believe that there may come a time in that friend's life when either that friend, or someone he/she knows will be contemplating abortion. From past stories I've heard, when one is undecided, that person will usually confide/ask for advice from the pro-life person, because they already know what their side believes/thinks. It's an excellent opportunity to share and possibly save the life of that baby that I certainly don't want to miss! I truly believe that God puts certain people in our lives at certain times for specific purposes/reasons.

I just can't understand for the life of me why some self-proclaimed Christians on this board would shun a person out of their lives for not sharing the same belief as them. I'm truly baffled.

X,
How is your cousin doing? Do you talk to her? Can I help in any way?

I have lost many friends over the years as I have become more and more vocal about my abortion regret. Many had abortions and told me,"it was the best thing I ever did."
Although, I still pray for them and they check up on what I am doing, I have met so many amazing people in the movement and feel blessed in the work of Operation Outcry, Silent No More MN and Rachel's Vineyard.

Do any of you know who Brandy Lozier is? She is an abortion surviver, who was burned alive in her mother's woom like Gianna Jessen was.

RJ,

"Do any of you know who Brandy Lozier is? "

Yes, we're facebook friends.

Me too. :)

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)

No, Carla, but I will be when/if we can go out to Cali for Christmas this year. I'll be sure to give her information about the groups you are in. I would have last time we were out, but the only person I ended up having time to talk to was my aunt...and that didn't go well.

My mother, grandmother and I are the only STAUNCHLY pro-lifers in my family. My grandmother died four years ago, and my mother died almost exactly a year after her, So I am really the only pro-lifer left. I have argued many times with my own brothers, aunt and cousins over the issue. My sister doesn't say much, but I know she almost aborted my nephew 25 years ago, and I'm PRETTY sure she was the one who pressured my niece into her recent abortion. She told my niece to tell me she had a MISCARRIAGE, but my niece knows I knew better. I have been the only one 'there for her' since she 'did it'. She is 'almost' convinced that God hates her now for 'what she did' (her words). I constantly tell her that all she has to do is ask, and accept God's forgiveness and healing. Pray for her with me, friends.

Excellent responses and insights, all. I really enjoyed (if that is the right word) reading what you had to say.

Posted by: Hal at August 29, 2009 7:20 PM
-----

Yes Hal, that's what we think. Thank you for acknowledging we've carefully considered these situations, and have come to rational, well thought-through conclusions.

It's good to know you support us.

Pamela and Xalisae,
I will continue to pray for your cousin and your niece. It breaks my heart. I am only an email away. I will do the best I can to find resources in their area.

For years I believed that abortion was unforgivable too until I met the only One who can heal the wounds that abortion leaves.

Lots of good comments, and of course one or two of the usual proabort attempts at distraction and diversion, most notably by the burger man. I can't help but feel sorry for someone who feels so compelled to spew out such nasty lies and venom, he must be fighting against a very unhappy conscience.

We can't choose our families, and usually our co-workers either. So sometimes there are some people in our lives with whom it is better just to not bring up the subject of abortion. But if they bring it up, give them an ear full.

In choosing voluntary "friends and associates", go gor quality over quantity every time. You will find your life a lot more serene and peaceful.

For years I believed that abortion was unforgivable too until I met the only One who can heal the wounds that abortion leaves.

Posted by: carla at August 30, 2009 7:04 AM
*******************

Glory to His Wonderful Matchless Name. He came to heal the brokenhearted.

His Name is Jesus!

Just make sure that when others fail to engage with you on this issue, are refusing to do so, because they know in their heart they are wrong, and not because you appear to care more about the issue than you do them. (Been there, done that, sharing experience.)

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at August 29, 2009 12:18 PM
-------------------------------------------------------

What he said!

yor bro ken

Posted by: carla at August 30, 2009 7:04 AM

"For years I believed that abortion was unforgivable too until I met the only One who can heal the wounds that abortion leaves."

-----------------------------------------------------------

What she said!

yor bro ken

Posted by: Robert Berger at August 29, 2009 4:13 PM

"And if you don't like my pro-choice comments here, why not spend time at pro-choice websites and blogs, and give them a piece of your mind?"

------------------------------------------------------------

mr. Berger,

Please be so kind as to give us the address for the owner of that circus. We are little weary from dealing with the clowns.

yor bro ken

Posted by: Hal at August 29, 2009 7:20 PM

"We're claiming elective abortion is morally wrong in all circumstances, and it's not simply our opinion."

That's what you think.

------------------------------------------------------

Hal,

I have an idea.

Why dont we lay out all the evidence for both sides and ask a jury of 12 5th graders chosen at random to determine arguement best reflects reality.

Would you accept their verdict?

I would.

yor bro ken

First of all, one might lose one's job or pay penalties for one's pro life convictions, especially if in health care (right, Jill?) But that's not limited to health care.

That causes loss of the workplace friendships. Personal experience was that some who maintained contact with me did not have a cultural prolife ideology, but respected my decision to refuse to dispense abortive drugs. Most of those who should have had prolife ideology from their cultural background were silent or opposed my decision. That was interesting, and remains a caveat for pro lifers in the workplace.

As for church life.... one can suffer a bit of disappointment knowing if the church doesn't want to use a prolife activist in ministry functions. Need to watch that collecion plate. Forty percent of people might get offended enough to leave if the prolife stuff gets pushed super hard. That it is presented at all is probably costing some attendance.

Remember how the churches were filled right after 9/11??? One can bet the difference immediately before and immediately after can be accounted for by the people who have trouble with the sex restrictions and the prolife ideology.

It's difficult to have a close relationship with anyone who places recreational activity above human life in their hierarchy of personal needs.

It's difficult to respect anyone who doesn't think that a human's right to life supercedes and precedes all other rights.

I generally like people, and try to be helpful to them, do my best for my patients, and wish well for the human race in general. However, I regard over-reliance on close interpersonal relationships (concern about being liked in return) as a possible pressure to make unethical decisions. Other than my husband and kids, and a very small number of others, I don't exert effort to build close relationships.

Glory to His Wonderful Matchless Name. He came to heal the brokenhearted.

His Name is Jesus!

Posted by: Ed at August 30, 2009 9:32 AM
--------

Amen Ed!

Robert Berger,

I suppose you are aware that you say basically the same thing. Every. Single. Time.

No, Janette, I don't think he's 'aware' of very much, since he 'apparently' lives in LaLa Land. Same neighborhood as our 'friend' Reality. :)

Hal,

I have an idea.

Why dont we lay out all the evidence for both sides and ask a jury of 12 5th graders chosen at random to determine arguement best reflects reality.

Would you accept their verdict?

I would.

yor bro ken
Posted by: kbhvac at August 30, 2009 12:02 PM

Decisions like abortion are a little too complicated for me to be willing to let 5th graders decide the issue. They've never feared an unwanted pregnancy. How about a jury of college students?

Ok, Hal! Can I be included, please?!

Hal,

Is that what it's about? Fear? You're comment really resignated with me. I've struggled years ago with fear about just about everything!

What I've learned from "fear", is that what we fear is the unknown. We contemplate the worst case scenerio and do everything in our power to avoid that scenerio. What we realize, down the road, is that things usually turn out a heck of alot different than what our fears came up with. And we also realize the things we didn't fear ended up turning out alot different than what we expected as well.

Abortion is not a solution. It's killing off the fear of the unknown. It is certainly not a guarantee that after the baby is gone life will go exactly as planned. So, it's not a solution.

Bobby-

We're pretty much in the same boat- but I can, even in public admin (not mathematics) avoid talking about religion and politics. I endure my academic counterparts as co-workers, but make my friends elsewhere. I don't intend to remain in this circle post-grad, though, and I know you do. So like any other secular job, it can just be tactful conversation.

That may make me a snob, but I'm a happy snob.

Decisions like abortion are a little too complicated for me to be willing to let 5th graders decide the issue. They've never feared an unwanted pregnancy. How about a jury of college students?

Hal, this brought a question to my mind. Should a person's experience with fearing an unplanned pregnancy have any bearing on a rational view of abortion? By that I mean, if we ask a group of 5th graders whether it's wrong to steal, you could rightly argue that 5th graders have not yet felt the fear of owing rent and having no money, or the pressure of putting food on the table. But does the empathy for situations which make stealing an attractive option have any bearing on whether or not stealing is a VALID option?

I think it's absolutely correct to say that 5th graders are unlikely to understand the complexities of the abortion debate. But I don't know that I would consider emotional reaction to unplanned or unwanted pregnancy to be a complexity that informs a valid opinion on the subject. Certainly empathy is important, and it's something I often find lacking from religious pro-lifers when it comes to the subject of fearing unplanned pregnancy (it is a grave fear of mine, that's for sure, and I loathe having that fear dismissed or being told that it's somehow pathological; this is not a Christian belief, but it a belief often professed by Christians) -- but I don't know that empathy with the emotional reasons for favoring legalized abortion should be a criteria for a logical discussion of whether abortion should be legal or not.

I don't know if that makes any sense. I'm kind of just thinking out loud, and I'm having trouble finding the right words.

OK, OK,

I must agree with Jill, this is a superb set of comments.. I personally would like thank Hal and R. Berger for being so clear with their articulation.

There is a problem with this line of debate - the person thus persuaded needs radical change and acceptance. Both, (I feel) are in general, short supply except for a few souls.

Please note, that the phenomen of abortion is not only a moral/religious one,, but is more than likely a biochemical one! If my suspicions have merit: then a whole DIFFERENT perspective ensues. One, in which there are not 'sides' buut a mutual promotion of health

Decades ago I was sent an intreguing rundown on the observations of a Ob/Gyn from New Zealand, Dr. Patric Dunn. From interviewing his pregnant patients and assessing their moods during pregnancy, he found some rather strange phenomenon. A woman's mood-disposition ranged radically DURING pregnancy. These mood swings formed into a defined pattern. The 1st PERIOD OF DEPRESSION lasted from wks 8-11. The 2nd PERIOD OF DEPRESSION started (and grew worse in time with) the third trimester. Then there is a glitCh of 'euphoria' at birth. Then he recorded a 3rd PERIOD OF (severe) DEPRESSION folloowinng birth. What IS interesting to note for pro-lifers::: that the 'choice' is not a rational one, but is usually under an induced 'duress'. Dr. Dunn found that 80% of all abortions were done during weeks 9-10. [It reminds me very much of the 82% figure quoted by abortionists.] Also note, that this is the only procedure to taken to surgically remove depreesion.. In most cases surgery is consider usually a wait-until-the-depression-ends. This makes abortion bad MEDICAL PRACTICE. ((SEE below))-any medical operation uses up zinc in the healing process. So any depression caused by a zinc-deficit will just increase the depression ... Note: carla's years-of-regret.

In personal biochemical studies on zinc status, we humans have 4 periods when a larger than usual amount of zinc is needed ........ the fgirst occurs in gestation when the optic nerve, etc fform - wks 4-5-6; a second periodd spells the finishing of multiple systems within the human body - all the third trimester; the 3rd DEPRESSION is immediately after birth, when zinc formms a large part of the immune system and also is used to form insulin and numerous digestion/breathing functions. {Zinc levels are the second highest of any known food in colostrum/first-milk.]
There is also a forth stage off very high zinc use. It is the stage of maturing known as puberty.. So any pregnant-teen would be a shoe-in for pregnancy-related zinc-deficit problems.

[[This analysis applies to many societal problems: alcoholism; criminality; birth defects ... etc. eet ... likely even homosexuality.]]

If this IS the rreason for the phenomenon of abortion, tt lies allmost untapped and each succeeding generation just gets siclker and sicker.

Is this correct? Will you change it, or find out if I'm correct?

Posted by: Hal at August 31, 2009 11:34 AM

Fear a pregnancy?

Wow. Oh - wait, that's right, it's the difference between wanted and unwanted. Just the ticket.

http://www.thrufire.com/blog/2009/08/is-america-bipolar/

New life is very, very dangerous - those babies - they poop.

Oh, the humanity!!!

....but I don't know that empathy with the emotional reasons for favoring legalized abortion should be a criteria for a logical discussion of whether abortion should be legal or not.

Posted by: Alexandra at August 31, 2009 1:14 PM

I think most people use logic to defend their opinions, not form them. Thank you for your comments. My point about "fear of unwanted pregnancy" was that the abortion debate, like most things, is not black and white and being sexually active and not wanting to be pregnant might allow someone to see the issue more broadly.

5th graders know it's a baby.

Exhibit A, thanks Chris. There are many reasons to fear an unplanned pregnancy. I have never known anyone who worried about pregnancy because babies poop.

Hal, I agree that many people's views on abortion are broadened when they have personal experience with the fear of unwanted pregnancy. I know mine were! I guess that saying that this emotionally-broadened view is a positive thing, or a necessary thing when building a control group, is begging the question, because it assumes that such a broadened view is the correct view. Of course, the other stance -- that 5th graders are correct because they haven't been corrupted by their own emotional fears and desires specific to the abortion debate -- makes the same mistake, in the other direction. Oh well.

"Wow. Oh - wait, that's right, it's the difference between wanted and unwanted. Just the ticket."

You're beginning to understand.

Hal,
Please put me in touch with the women you know who feared their pregnancies and then faced their fears by having that baby and now regret it. Thank you.

I am as staunchly pro-choice as many are pro-life on this board and have managed to maintain friendships with other pro-life women (not suprisingly the topic of abortion never comes up). We respect each other's boundaries and viewpoints and no one needs to become the insufferable 'Miss Know It All' at the dinner table.

It's an easy enough compromise...but I guess if you're that bent out of shape about ANY issue, it would be hard to tolerate anyone who didn't believe what you did.

Carla, I know a woman who very much regrets that she had her two children. I don't know whether she would have preferred an abortion, we haven't talked about that. But she very clearly wishes she never had them. It's hard for me to grasp, but it's what she says.

Generally, however, most of the women who have had their abortions probably don't regret it, and most of the women who had their children probably don't regret that. If people are free to act on their own wishes, they'll have few regrets.

Hal,

On the topic of fearing an unplanned pregnancy or emotional involvement having any weight in the debate (that rhymed): I believe from personal experience, the testimonials of others and just a general hunch that pregnancies void of fear and heightened emotion are quite rare. The prospect of bringing another human into being is, like Ron Burgundy, kind of a big deal. It seems like common sense that trying to process that fact, secure resources, deal with less than supportive loved ones, and cope with the physical strain of pregnancy is necessarily going to invoke fear. I'm afraid I don't understand how perfectly natural emotions, even if they're negative and intense, assign merit to abortion. I am in no way trying to minimize the flurry of emotions that weigh on a pregnant woman's mind, but I can't find the bridge that connects unpleasant feelings with justified murder. Your comment suggests that including feelings experienced by unexpectedly pregnant women would provide essential clarity to the abortion debate. I disagree and believe it clouds the debate. When evaluating if a human being is worthy of life, it's dangerous for another's feelings to be a deciding factor. It's too easy to imagine the various slippery slope arguments that could be introduced using the same emotion-based reasoning (what about the elderly or disabled? what if their lives relied on the fears/feelings of others? etc). So now we're chasing another distracting argument that leads us away from a clear conclusion. I may have rambled a bit, but my point is that when trying to set up a fair debate situation, I think incorporating emotional reactions to pregnancy (fearful or joyful) would only distract from the substance of the issue.

Janette, you make some good points. But, at the end, many women who have "unwanted" pregnancies are going to seek abortions. We can try to talk them out of it, offer alternatives and support, but I'm more comfortable leaving the ultimate decision to them and their doctors.

Hal,
I am sure she has let those children know too. It is conveyed to them right? Are you saying she should have killed them when she had the chance??

Hey Danielle!!
So those that have convictions are Know It Alls and get bent out of shape? I believe that life begins at conception. Science proves it. I will fight for the rights of the unborn to live until my last breath. Boundaries, Schmoundaries......I will always defend the most defenseless among us. Don't give a rip if someone won't "be my friend" if I say abortion hurts women.(Actually been unfriended quite a bit on Facebook, which always cracks me up.)

Greg Koukl has some excellent advice for Christians in his Tactics book, and the same advice applies to pro-lifers. I'll do my best to paraphrase....

Be winsome, sincere, and loving. Always do your best to be a true friend to everyone whom God has placed in your path. "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." Be a peacemaker.

Eventually, you might find that your convictions will cause a rift between you and someone else. If that happens, then you must be sure that the problem is your convictions, not you. If you have done your best to be a gracious friend, and the person still chooses to part company with you, then you will at least keep a clear conscience.

...

Practically speaking, my parents are both fiercely pro-abortion-choice. They know that I disagree with them. We have discussed the point from time to time, but we do not do so often, because it upsets my parents too much. The rest of the time, I try to be a loving son. Meanwhile I pray that the Holy Spirit will open their hearts to God's truth ... not just about abortion, but about a myriad of issues.

So those that have convictions are Know It Alls and get bent out of shape?
Posted by: carla at August 31, 2009 3:01 PM

No, I too have convictions. I also know my flaws as a human being - some of which are: a) a flair for the dramatic, b) being judgemental and c) a sometimes self righteous attitude. I work hard to be a civilized human being and tamp these down when in polite company. I've got plenty to say (and usually all the time), but I also know the pain of being trapped in a circular debate with a precious, insufferable soap boxer. They come in liberal and conservative strains and they both annoy the *!(# out of me. I'm saying that I choose not to go there, especially when there's no other objective other than hearing my own self talk.

Hal,
You said: "But, at the end, many women who have "unwanted" pregnancies are going to seek abortions."

Precisely. Having the legal option to become unpregnant will continue to prompt women to do just that. No amount of resources, support or pleading will stop people from doing what they are legally able to do. I'm sure there are many laws that, if abolished, people would also take advantage of their options, no matter the moral implications or the consequences to others. That's why the taking of innocent human life must not be allowed.

"We can try to talk them out of it, offer alternatives and support, but I'm more comfortable leaving the ultimate decision to them and their doctors."

If we were talking about actual medical treatment, I would agree with you. But since we're speaking of an elective procedure that seeks to violently thwart a biological process, not treat/cure an illness, I don't see how a doctor's willingness to participate for a dollar amount holds any special importance. I am in favor of privacy and choice in most instances, even if people choose differently than I would, but not when it comes to the intentional destruction of innocent life. But I suppose that's where we'll always disagree :)

I know it is tempting to use opinions on abortion as a way to select or grade friendships. It sure feels nice to be around people who share a deep respect for life. There is a need, at times, to preach to the choir or to benefit from the shared strength of other pro life friends and acquaintances. As my wife and I meet new people, mainly other parents of the kids' classmates or new neighbors, abortion has become the topic of discussion at unpredictable times, although, needless to say, it is not a good conversation starter. Slowly, you get to know who's who. As I have become a little less inhibited over the years about offering my pro life opinion, and have been recently more inspired to put my words into action, I feel some discomfort when getting together with the abortion supporters, (they mostly call themselves pro choice. I think a close friendship with a person adamantly and actively pro abortion would be impossible.) I do not know if they share the discomfort. So what to do? Constant preaching would certainly cause a widening rift. In response to discussing abortion on Facebook posts, my wife has been unfriended by former Catholic high school friends, so I guess we have lost a few distant friends. We have not lost any close, long-term friends or newer friends yet over this difference of opinion. I would not want to abandon the friendship entirely and lose hope that they may someday reject “choice”. Keeping distant would reduce the possibility of engaging them further and possibly trying other approaches. It is conceivable that their children may need a place to turn for information they may not get at home, so their kids may think of us or our children as an alternative source. It is very puzzling how some of the otherwise good people that we know accept abortion as an option. I guess they are actually choosing to keep the topic at arms length and not think about it beyond the abstract and theoretical. Many of them are school moms who want to keep the abortion option available should any of their daughters have the misfortune of a rape pregnancy.
Debating friends and classmates began back in my high school years. The Roe v. Wade decision was made midway through freshman year. Being adopted, as the unwittingly hurtful “these unwed mothers shouldn't be bringing unwanted children into the world” comments began to flow, I was able to counter with my own appreciation for my life, expressing thanks I did not end up in a garbage can. In more recent conversations, I struggled to come up with a response to the rape-incest exception. I was somewhat taken in by the argument claiming the abortion option was the most compassionate for the victim. That is until I began learning of instances where rape victims gave birth and either raised their child or surrendered for adoption and consequently felt a greater level of healing from the rape by doing so. I read the stories of rape conceived children http://www.rebeccakiessling.com Exploring that new information was preceded by the discovery that I was conceived in rape. Learning of this made me even more thankful for my life and gave me another huge point to bring to subsequent abortion conversations. My wife is also adopted. Her birth mom was forcibly taken for illegal abortions 3 times by the birth mom's father and each time refused to go through with the abortion. Other attempts were made at home to end the pregnancy which thankfully failed. Her birth mom is pro choice, and that is a tough dilemma for my wife. I have a pro choice sister-in-law, who is also adopted, so the abortion subject is a hot one in our families also. Can't understand how anyone in the adoption triangle can support abortion in any way.
So our stories add a little personal kick to the moral and logical weight of the pro life argument we bring to the conversations we have. So many people have never thought about rape conceived children and our right to life. We have seen other people change their views in front of our eyes. At the very least, when they hear the stories, almost everyone we talk to about this subject who has not yet gone beyond the conceptual level, has admitted to giving the matter a lot more in depth thought.
So we plug away, getting more involved in pro life activities and building new friendships there, while continuing to spread the truth to others about abortion when we can. I guess the bottom line is that I have tried to keep some of the uneasiness that I feel around some people under wraps, not allowing it to develop into anger or spite, and hope for future conversions.

Danielle,

I completely agree with and can relate to your most recent comment. I am a very opinionated person (obviously) and I have to employ discretion when choosing times to passionately state my views or realize that doing so wouldn't be helpful. My liberal friends (I can count my conservative friends on one hand) have been pretty gracious when I've hijacked a conversation to do a mini-sermon, so I try to be patient with them when they do the same and to carefully consider my motives before I speak about sensitive topics.

jsable,

Thank you so much for sharing your wonderful testimony. What amazing biological mothers you and your wife have! :)

Wow, jsable :) That's an incredible life story. I appreciate you sharing that.

I have one adopted relative and one relative who was conceived by rape. It's so unsettling to think that many people view their existence as optional merely because of circumstances beyond their control.

jsable,
Thank you for sharing your story. Very moving. I also put up your link for Rebecca Kiessling's site. I hope everyone takes a moment to read her story as well.
So glad you came here. God bless!

I am Jan who emailed the "weekend question" to Jill. Below is my recent email thanking her for bringing my question up on her blog. Jill could have answered my question in the usual generic manner we usually get from people who are really busy, but she did not do that, so all I can say is:

Wow Jill ! All I can say is thank you, thank you, thank you.

So many responses to my question! So many helpful comments! I haven't been able to read them all yet, but what I have read has been so helpful in many ways, even above and beyond my initial question.

I can't ever remember asking a question, or having a special need, and receiving such an overwhelming helpful and caring response.

What did I learn? Oh my, I've learned so much and I'm not finished reading. Where do I begin, I learned foremost that our prolife beliefs are front and centre, and they determine a lot of the choices we make, (how true, I never really thought about it, but it is true). Like who we want to spend our time with and that it is o.k. to not wish to give time away to people with whom I would be at odds with all the time. It is reassuring to know that others have become alienated from pro-abort friends and consider it no loss at all. Then, I read the many reminders from Sacred Scriptures, how our Lord promised that if we follow him we would be despised and also that If we don't ever lose any friends it means we don't stand for anything.

There is so much more, I could go on and on. There was something worthwhile and helpful in every comment and I am overwhelmed by the spirit of lovingkindness from those who shared a thoughtful answer to my question.

God bless Jill and God bless all who took the time to help me.

Jan

Hal,

"I think most people use logic to defend their opinions, not form them."

That may be true in the courtroom, Counselor, but not in the real world. I'm guessing you learned that in law school? What you are describing is moral relativism. Thinking (logical) people are not moral relativists.

"Decisions like abortion are a little too complicated for me to be willing to let 5th graders decide the issue. They've never feared an unwanted pregnancy. How about a jury of college students?"

Posted by: Hal at August 31, 2009 11:34 AM

Fear can blind us to the truth. This is why we need to form our moral opinions at an early age, before the fears that accompany adulthood distort our decision-making abilities. Should we be ruled by our fears? I agree with Marie, who in her comment to you, said "no". Bring on those fifth-graders!

Jan,
Thank you for the question!! :) I am grateful for the discussion that it sparked!!