Weekend question

weekend question.jpgModerator Carla posed a good question to pro-aborts in a comment this week:

HOW do they help a young woman who is pregnant, alone and broke but DOESN'T want an abortion?

Well?

[HT: moderator Bethany]


Comments:

You send her to (or start!) a Gabriel Project

http://www.glgabrielproject.org/

http://catholicanew.com/abortion-action-gabriel-main.htm

Posted by: Patty at September 12, 2009 8:27 AM


*chirp* *chirp* *chirp* *chirp*

Posted by: Bethany at September 12, 2009 8:49 AM


This post should get alot of comments :\

Posted by: Marie at September 12, 2009 9:02 AM


The help would come in the form of "counseling" her that the "responsible" thing to do for both herself and society is to kill her child.

Posted by: Subvet at September 12, 2009 9:21 AM


I would really love to know the answer to this question. It has always seemed soooo manipulative to me that PP apparently has the attitude of "have an abortion with us--we can help you, we can make this all go away--but if you don't want one, well, you're on your own. Good luck (you'll need it)" If PP won't even discuss the many PL organizations that will help women and families with their physical and emotional needs, aren't they de facto preying on panic and fear instead of on free choice? I'd like to know if my impressions are wrong. And if they aren't, why don't PC people, and PP supporters in particular, seem to care?

Posted by: EH at September 12, 2009 10:08 AM


*passes out popcorn (your choice of plain, buttery, cheese and/or caramel corn), bottles of water or ice tea, and chocolate chip cookies*

If we're going to be waiting, we might as well have some snacks!

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at September 12, 2009 10:10 AM


There's a local pregnancy center here that pairs these women with sort of "surrogate homes", where they can stay with a family and help them get on their feet. These are extreme situations though... the question didn't necessarily say how poor the woman is, or if she's homeless, etc. It's a program I look forward to participating in, once we get out of this apartment and into a house :)

The pregnancy center would also help her with adoption options (because the question also didn't specify whether she wanted to keep the baby or not). If she doesn't have the financial ability to raise a child, and wants the best for her child, adoption is certainly a wonderful option.

Posted by: Jenny Z at September 12, 2009 10:16 AM


The answer is they don't help women in these situations.

We have had a few cases in Texas where they will actually send a girl to one of our CPC's because they literally do not know what to do with her.

A girl in that kind of situation is an anomollay to them. She stands in complete contrast to everything they believe.

Posted by: Andrew at September 12, 2009 10:34 AM


Liz had provided the snacks, now here's the entertainment:

has anyone heard BarlowGirl's new song Tears Fall about abortion?
go to their site and on the right side is their new album music player:

http://www.barlowgirl.com/

good song.

Posted by: angel at September 12, 2009 10:51 AM


Jenny Z--

Is the pregnancy center you refer to pro-choice or pro-life? The services you describe seem commendable either,and they are what I would expect from a pro-life pregnancy center (the wording of "pregnancy center" itself I also associate with pro life). Since the questions was specific to pro-choicers, I just want to clarify--are you describing a PC organization that does specifically help women through their pregnancies and beyond if they don't want to abort?

Posted by: EH at September 12, 2009 10:52 AM


Jenny Z--

Is the pregnancy center you refer to pro-choice or pro-life? The services you describe seem commendable either way,and they are what I would expect from a pro-life pregnancy center (the wording of "pregnancy center" itself I also associate with pro life). Since the questions was specific to pro-choicers, I just want to clarify--are you describing a PC organization that does specifically help women through their pregnancies and beyond if they don't want to abort?

Posted by: EH at September 12, 2009 10:52 AM


This question is probably 'above their pay grades.' They're probably wondering why the young woman wants to 'punish themselves' when they can pay PP to do it for them. After all, who wants a 'wee-wee' problem which is what you get when you have a child?

Who knows? The only thing that makes sense to them is death. For everybody else that is. At least, that's what the teleprompter said.

Posted by: Stephan at September 12, 2009 11:32 AM


At the PP I went to in college for exams, I once ran into two young women who were there specifically because they were pregnant and not having abortions. They had had their pregnancy tests done at PP, and when they said that they were not going to abort but had no insurance, PP booked them appointments on the day that the Prenatal Care and Assistance Program worker was going to be at PP. Apparently they had a day every however often when someone was there to accept identification and paperwork, etc, and get you covered by the public insurance program, so that you didn't have to go to a social services office or wherever else to do it. They also had a list of local obstetricians who were usually covered.

Posted by: Alexandra at September 12, 2009 11:41 AM


moderators I have a comment with a link waiting

Posted by: angel at September 12, 2009 11:42 AM


I think it's a good question. Fighting for Obama's health care plan might be a good start (making medical care assessable for those who want to have a baby) Also, we should all work for better Domestic Violence programs and facilities.

I have an 18 year old relative who just had an unplanned baby. I've helped her out in many ways.(her parents, by the way, were not very supportive--but the father's parents were)

Posted by: Hal at September 12, 2009 12:12 PM


As a pro-choicer the first thing I would help her with is to try and find her health care we can afford. Next I would help her make up a resume and set up some interviews so she can at least get some work to save up money before the baby comes. I would then help her find a cheap little apartment near her job or maybe We could find someone looking for a roommate. The goal would be to help her stay afloat for a few weeks after the birth until she can put the baby in daycare (sometimes the government pays for daycare until the mother finds a job). Once she is settled with a job and her baby has day care we can work on other important things, helping her go back to school or saving, etc. A good financial foothold will be a big help to her and her child.

Posted by: A Woman at September 12, 2009 12:30 PM


I would also buy the baby a bond for their college fund.

Posted by: A Woman at September 12, 2009 12:32 PM


A Woman-that's awesome.

Posted by: Pansy Moss at September 12, 2009 12:41 PM


Dear “A Woman”,

As a pro-lifer I would encourage you to do exactly as you propose you would do. Your local pro-life crisis pregnancy center can help facilitate the process...as they do this kind of work regularly. They will also gladly accept donations of any kind as funds are always short and demand high. One need not be pro-life to help women in crisis…but it does seem to work out that way. Lets all work on changing that.

Posted by: Tom R at September 12, 2009 12:47 PM


Oh I thought the question was about PP for some reason, not all pro-choice people. I know a lot of pro-choice people who work to help women who aren't aborting.

As a pro-choicer, I expanded an organization at my college which provided transportation to women who needed to get to Planned Parenthood for STD testing, exams, pregnancy tests, and -- yes -- abortions. I worked to have that organization also help women get to some local CPCs, so that no one felt that they had only one choice.

Posted by: Alexandra at September 12, 2009 1:00 PM


They will simply dehumanize her like they do to the unborn child.

Posted by: BK at September 12, 2009 1:14 PM


“HOW do they help a young woman who…DOESN'T want an abortion?”

Excuse me? HOW do they help a young woman who DOES want an abortion? Your question implies that the average abortion provider wants to actually HELP the abortion minded.
Help them get to the PP clinic quicker. Give them a few more condoms I suppose? Yeah, that will help.

Forget about them altruistically and lovingly helping anybody long or short term. I think most professional pro-aborts are in it to exploit a crisis pregnancy for their own enrichment. What happens to a woman after an abortion is only a concern in so far as it might result in repeated business. Or perhaps to ease their own repressed feelings of guilt and shame. Or perhaps they offer some occasional service (that doesn’t impact the bottom line) so they can advertise multiple services. Everything else is just a lot of talk and not much action.

Perhaps in time I can be proven wrong…but as for now I’m still waiting for some real evidence.

Posted by: Tom R at September 12, 2009 1:17 PM


I have an 18 year old relative who just had an unplanned baby. I've helped her out in many ways.(her parents, by the way, were not very supportive--but the father's parents were)
Posted by: Hal at September 12, 2009 12:12 PM

very good Hal! This is the sort of thing we want to hear about you. ;)

Posted by: angel at September 12, 2009 1:43 PM


Alexandra,

Exactly what kind of services did the CPC offer that PP was incapable of providing? I mean if PP is so pro-choice and involved in helping all kinds of women in all kinds of crisis pregnancies...why did you have to take them to some other service provider?

That darn profit motive gets in the way don't it.

Posted by: Tom R at September 12, 2009 1:45 PM


Hey Tom --

The services of the local CPC I chose to work with included helping women get in touch with adoption information, helping women find housing or jobs, helping with insurance stuff, referring to ob/gyn's, an ultrasound machine, etc. As far as I am aware, Planned Parenthood also refers women to adoption agencies, and obviously also has an ultrasound machine, though it's not free like I think it was at the CPC, which is one thing that's really great about CPCs; and from my own experiences they help pregnant women get insurance; but I felt that it was important for women to have the option of going to either, since there is clearly an emotional difference in reaction, which is visible simply from the conversations here. If a woman felt uncomfortable going to Planned Parenthood for whatever reason, I didn't want that to affect the resources and aid being offered to her.

Acting like pro-choicers don't care about pregnant women does absolutely nothing for the pro-life movement, because every pro-choicer who cares about pregnant women immediately recognizes the lie.

Posted by: Alexandra at September 12, 2009 1:58 PM


Tom R., Had to respond to your "get them to PP quicker" comment ---sidewalk counseling I've seen couples sent home for one to two weeks to get further along (preferring a surgical vs a medical abortion) and yes, I've actually been told "they said it's too early". At 8 weeks the baby's body parts are bigger to ensure they're all out, I've read. From an extremely insightful post-abortive woman at ambivablog.typepad.com/ambivablog/2005/01/note_this_essay.html

"One day in October, after waiting the requisite, excruciating month “till it was big enough so they could get it all”..."

On an upbeat note, a couple left the abortuary today after Dad took the information back to his wife, praise God! Please pray for this family to be put back together as he described it, they are separated and "this was a mistake" --I asked gently, "A human life, a mistake?" and he seemed to think about that. I don't know what finally clicked for her as he admitted he would take care of the baby if she wouldn't. But whatever it was, that little one's still alive and kicking!

Posted by: klynn73 at September 12, 2009 2:00 PM


Alexandra,

Okay, okay…First of all let me applaud you for working to get the transportation services you were involve with to include transport to a CPC. I am sure it is helpful for the women who use it. Thank you for this. I am also sure that you personally really care about women in crisis.

I know that PP does do many kinds of services like as a CPC. However, I have never thought of PP as a comprehensive crisis pregnancy service provider in the same way as many CPC’s are. Unless they was some special governmental type funding source. I would be for more of that…especially if a CPC had a fair shot at getting some…and in some places they do.

Second, you might notice in my comments that I directed my criticism toward “average abortion provider” and “most professional pro-aborts”. Not your average guy on the street pro-choicer (who is most likely against abortion in 80-90% of cases anyway). Like every good American the average pro-choicer is a compassionate loving person who just wants people to be free to live their life as they see fit. And what can be wrong with that? Except if somebody gets killed in the process.

With all the best regards.
Tom

Posted by: Tom R at September 12, 2009 2:40 PM


Speaking from experience,

What does PP offer to a pregnant woman not seeking an abortion?
winter '07 I didn't know where else to go for a proof of pregnancy. I wasn't familiar with any local CPCs and didn't know what to search. I made the appointment and clarified that I wasn't interested in abortion. At the appointment, I restated this fact. The waiting room had typical teenage magazines (Cosmo, Seventeen, etc). Obviously, there were no children and no children's toys or books. They offered a urine test and an EDD based on my most recent period, literature on the importance of folic acid in pregnancy, Plan B (which I ended up throwing away in the exam room after they continued to push it), and a pamphlet on my "options" (actually, it didn't mention keeping the child or adoption once-it was different abortion procedures in nice innocuous terms). Then they charged me $7. Had I not known at the time that we needed Medicare and how to apply, I would have been completely lost.

What does a CPC offer to a woman not seeking an abortion?

In May '08, we went to a CPC (we planned our 2nd and got pregnant right before my husband got laid off and we lost our insurance). They welcomed our son and had books and toys to entertain him. They had a much smaller waiting room, with a parenting magazine, a cooking magazine, and some photography books. At the appointment, they offered us an ultrasound and spoke with us to determine an accurate due date. They asked whether we were considering keeping the baby, and we told them of course we were keeping the baby. The nurse gave us a pamphlet on adoption "just to have" and told us that they counsel women and couples through the adoption process and beyond. We were asked if we had insurance, and if we knew how to apply for Medicare. We were told about various prenatal and postpartum classes offered to expecting parents. We were told about other services, including maternity wardrobes, baby supplies and clothes, breast pump supplies, etc. They have a program where you use what you need and bring it back (with the exception of supplies that can't be reused).

Posted by: MaryRose at September 12, 2009 3:16 PM


Like every good American the average pro-choicer is a compassionate loving person who just wants people to be free to live their life as they see fit.

I guess I wonder which pro-choicers you think you're most likely to be talking to, in a venue like this? The "professional pro-aborts" or the "average guys on the street" -- whose problem is less that they don't care about women, and more that they care about women at the expense of logic and reality? If you are talking to some average pro-choicer on the street and you say, "Pro-aborts don't care about pregnant women at all," the argument becomes "Yes I do" versus "No you don't." And of course, the reality is that the pro-choicer probably does care about women -- often quite a bit -- and sometimes they back up their support of pregnant, non-aborting women in real-life ways, but sometimes they have other pet causes that they support instead; and even if they don't do anything beyond donate money or vote a certain way, what is the point of arguing over that, anyway? I know pro-lifers who have other, preferred causes besides abortion, and that doesn't mean they care less about women than anyone else.

The argument is not, "You don't want to help women," it's, "Some of the ways in which you want to help women are incorrect." I will set aside the argument that abortion never "helps" women, because I do know women who feel greatly helped by legal abortion, who -- years afterwards -- are not scarred or angry but are merely grateful; and to be honest it does not matter to me, for the purposes of argument, whether many women are not hurt by abortion, because abortion is right or wrong regardless of that fact.

As you noted, I care quite a bit about women. I always have. Pregnant women, non-pregnant women, women who want abortions, women who don't want abortions, women with children, women without children. Women who want to be pregnant and women who don't want to ever get pregnant. Not just women, but for the topic of legal abortion, which usually deals with bodily autonomy, we will leave it at women. The problem has never been that I don't care. It was, perhaps, that I cared so much that it informed my intellectual interpretation of reality. I recognized a rhetorical device, a logical fallacy, a lie, every time I was told that "pro-choicers" didn't care about women, didn't help women, only cared about money. Who would listen to a liar?

Posted by: Alexandra at September 12, 2009 4:12 PM


My experience with this was similar to MaryRose's. I went to PP to get verification of pregnancy. At the time I was on Medicaid and needed a reliable verification. I took the tesp. It was positive. The woman took me to the counseling room to dicuss my options. She kept bringing up abortion. I told her four times I was not interested before telling her if she even mentioned the word one more time I would get up and walk out with or without my papers. She never once referred me to ANY resources. She never once encouraged me. She never mentioned adoption. She handed me my paper and told me where the exit was.
I have worked for the CPC in my area. I wrote grant applications for them and gathered data for those grants. The grants were to expand there programs for parenting classes, baby clothes, diapers, and maternity clothes. They had information out the wazoo for adoption, and local resources. They also had counselors on-call and in office to speak to anyone who needed them. Too bad it was not available when I needed them.
I love my daughter she is a true survivor of Roe v Wade and "choice".

Posted by: kmann at September 12, 2009 4:18 PM


A legislataor posed that very question to the head of the local PP in Tn. His answer was we give her a free sample of pre natal vitamins!

Posted by: Maria at September 12, 2009 4:46 PM


Posted by: Alexandra at September 12, 2009 4:12 PM

I can almost see what you're saying. It's true a lot of people think they're helping women out by pushing and encouraging abortion, or even just keeping it an option. Which doesn't make them bad people, really, only ignorant. But since abortion has been proven firmly wrong for at least one, sometimes both of the main parties involved--the woman and the baby--(and even sometimes the clinic workers), then what's the good of leaving the abortion-supporters ignorant? Even if all women were blissfully happy with abortion, and clinic workers didn't sometimes become disillusioned, and religion accepted it as it once did slavery, how would that make the killing of a human being any more morally correct? Is killing people automatically okay if they're in the way and won't be missed? Because that can definitely be twisted to enclude a much wider range of people than just "fetuses."

Posted by: Abel at September 12, 2009 4:53 PM


Alexandra, a few weeks ago an incident at the abortuary led to a long talk with one of the deathscorts. After several hours of conversation, we could conclude that we both sincerely care about the women, something he admits he witnesses with the sidewalk counselors, but until he (and every other PCr) can care as much about what abortion does to the babies, we're getting nowhere. abortionNO.org Hidden injustice is still injustice. Dehumanizing the victims of injustice is standard operating procedure whether one calls them: "hunde" "untermenschen" "insects" "non-viable tissue" "product of conception" or "3/5 human".

Posted by: klynn73 at September 12, 2009 4:53 PM


then what's the good of leaving the abortion-supporters ignorant?

oh, I don't support leaving anyone ignorant. I just support debating facts without assuming --or insisting on -- bad intentions, or just neglect, on the part of the person you're talking to.

Even if all women were blissfully happy with abortion, and clinic workers didn't sometimes become disillusioned, and religion accepted it as it once did slavery, how would that make the killing of a human being any more morally correct?

is this addressed to me? I specifically mentioned this in my comment.

Posted by: Alexandra at September 12, 2009 5:10 PM


Alexandra,

In the original weekend question the pro-abort “they” is not specifically defined. I had thought (perhaps wrongly) that the “they” referred to were the movers and shakers of the abortion industry i.e. the clinic owners, the managers, the abortionists, those who are in control of operations and propaganda. These folks may care to a certain extent, but are mainly in it for the money with very few exceptions. That’s just a sad fact. The nurse staff, the receptionist, the escorts, the hourly workers who drive the bus between campus and the PP clinic, like common pro-choicers…they almost always care in their inner heart and mind…although often (out of necessity) in an emotionally detached and misguided way. Being involved in abortion does that.

I would never say to a guy in the street or a clinic worker “you don’t care about women”, because 99% of the time it is not only wrong and heartless it is as you indicated profoundly stupid and ineffective. I would defy you to show me how I said any such thing in my comments. I’m sorry to find you took what I did say so personally.

Posted by: Tom R at September 12, 2009 5:58 PM


Don't worry Tom, I didn't take it personally. :)

I initially thought we were talking about Planned Parenthood as well, so I shared my observations there. But I did see some nice examples of "average" pro-choicers saying more individual things, so I figured I'd add mine.

Posted by: Alexandra at September 12, 2009 6:18 PM


"...and to be honest it does not matter to me, for the purposes of argument, whether many women are not hurt by abortion, because abortion is right or wrong regardless of that fact."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this sigular ambivalence, but what you said doesn't answer my question. All I got fom it was that you'd be willing to let people die daily for the sport of arguing about it. Either a human being is dead, or they're not. There's no in-between. And arguing this point will do nothing but waste time--during which a lot of babies lose their lives.

How can a person (you, specifically) be pro-choice, and yet, argue that a person's biology cannot be influenced by what his mother thinks of him? That's the exact rhetoric of the pro-choice side--if it's wanted, it's a baby, and if not it's a blob. The opinion changes what the baby is--and yet, you say that opinion doesn't direct the morality of the act... I don't get your thinking. Am I missing the point here? Are you pro-life or something?

Posted by: Abel at September 12, 2009 8:14 PM


Maybe I'm misunderstanding this sigular ambivalence, but what you said doesn't answer my question. All I got fom it was that you'd be willing to let people die daily for the sport of arguing about it.

You're misunderstanding. I said that as far as debating the legality of abortion, whether some women are legitimately not hurt by abortion, but are grateful for it, is unimportant -- because whether or not some women are grateful for legalized abortion has no bearing on whether abortion should be legal or not. If every single woman who had an abortion was glad for it, that would still mean nothing as far as whether abortion should be legal. So I find the argument that "abortion does not help women" is a distraction from the central issue, because even if abortion definitely DID help women, that does not change what it is, nor does it change whether it should be legal or not.

You are certainly missing the point, I am not pro-choice, and I am at work so I'll have to be brief. But you're incorrect that the rhetoric of the pro-choice movement is that it's either a baby or a blob. Plenty of pro-choicers rely on the bodily autonomy argument, which basically says that they don't care if it's a baby, because it's inside someone else's body and cannot be removed without killing it, so abortion should still be legal. The opinion does not determine what the baby is, just whether or not it is allowed to continue to be.

Posted by: Alexandra at September 12, 2009 9:12 PM


Uh....PP is a non-profit, profit making organization benefitting all the high paid execs in the organization.

I'd rather be in the Mafia than work for Planned Parenthood.

At least Mafioso would consider it very unmanly and subhuman to make money off of killing innocent babies.

Those who now unprepentantly work for PP will eventually suffer the unquenchable fire of hell.

Posted by: Phil Schembri is HisMan at September 12, 2009 9:18 PM


Alexandra,

In a post you put up in this comment section at 1:00pm today you said (while extolling the virtues of PP):

“As a pro-choicer, I expanded an organization at my college which provided transportation to women who needed to get to Planned Parenthood for STD testing, exams, pregnancy tests, and -- yes -- abortions.”

And now at 9:12pm you state:
“You are certainly missing the point, I am not pro-choice…”

Which is it?

Does this mean you were once pro-choice and have since changed you mind? If so, I am curious. What changed your heart? And/or what exactly do you consider "the central issue"?

Posted by: Tom R at September 12, 2009 10:26 PM


Alexandra,

I don't know which of our experiences were typical of PP, but I can say with confidence that in my city, PP doesn't offer u/s's to pregnant women seeking abortions. While I would guess that they perform u/s's on women seeking abortions after a certain time period, I would be truly amazed to find out that these u/s's are shown to the women.

Also, I have yet to hear anyone say from personal experience that PP offers adoption counseling of ANY form in their clinics. At least, in this city. Now, I realize that there isn't an overriding rule for the specifics of what literature is provided, etc. Perhaps there should be. Regardless, I just wanted to make the point that in my experience and from the information I have garnered, a few of the services that the PP with which you're familiar offered are not offered in the PP clinics in my city. It sounds like you are acquainted with clinics that hold themselves to a far higher standard of practice than those with which I'm familiar.

It's not that I doubt your comments. I know you to be fair-minded and intelligent, as a general rule. I just enjoy the comparison and contrast. :)

Posted by: MaryRose at September 13, 2009 12:49 AM


Does this mean you were once pro-choice and have since changed you mind?

Yes, Tom. Sorry for the confusion -- I said, "As a pro-choicer," as I'd have said, "As a college student," etc. I consider the central argument to be whether the right to bodily autonomy outweighs the right to life.

Mary Rose, I am also pretty near certain that Planned Parenthood does not offer ultrasounds to women "just because" -- by that I mean that they mostly have them there for diagnostic purposes on the day of the abortion. You can see the screen before the abortion (I think in some states they ask you, but in some you have to ask; in the past some women were denied this opportunity, but I have not heard of it happening in recent years) but that's a vastly different environment from just seeing the screen as you try to figure out what to do next. IMO, one of the greatest things about CPCs is the ultrasound machines, and that was the reason I initially looked into them -- I think that providing free use of an ultrasound machine is most certainly an act of charity, so I don't necessarily fault PP for NOT doing it, but I definitely think it's a good thing to offer women.

In my experience, PP's vary wildly in just about every way. I know women who had totally crappy experiences there in a variety of ways -- a woman who went to the Manhattan clinic for a medical abortion, had her ultrasound and blood test, then waited nearly 5 hours, was told to take a break and go get some food because the doctor was starving and needed to get food herself, waited three hours after lunch. etc. Sometimes they are good in ways that you can regulate -- I don't know if every PP in New York State offers PCAP assistance, but you could make sure that they would -- and PP resists these regulations because it's not the most reasonable organization, to say the least. Sometimes they are bad in ways that can't be regulated -- treating women like cattle, etc. I think both types of experiences -- positive and negative -- are equally valid when it comes to what Planned Parenthood actually "is like," so I definitely value and appreciate you sharing your experience. My college Planned Parenthood demonstrated a care and concern for women, but that is definitely not the case at every Planned Parenthood.

Posted by: Alexandra at September 13, 2009 6:04 AM


Are you kidding? They admit flat out that women don't WANT abortions. It's not about what she wants. It's about what the fashionistas want. And if a few tens of millions of poor women get ground up in the abortion mills so the fashionistas can have their fashionable abortions without public censure, they win.

Posted by: Christina at September 13, 2009 6:10 AM


Alexandra,

In your opinion, does the “right to bodily autonomy” apply to a pre-born human in precisely the same way it applies to an adult human?

_____ yes

_____ no


PS: I would think it would be really cool if I could see you type these words:
“I am pro-life.”

Posted by: Tom R at September 13, 2009 9:41 AM


I was pregnant, alone and broke and didn't want an abortion. I was convinced by an abortion clinic "counselor" that killing my child in an abortion was "the best thing" I could do. They are VERY good at selling death and preying on the fear of women.

Tom R
PP likes to think they "help." The "help" they offer is killing. I had to learn that the hard way.


Posted by: carla Author Profile Page at September 13, 2009 8:10 PM


Hal,
Thank you for helping your 18 year old relative and also the women your donation will help!!

Posted by: carla Author Profile Page at September 13, 2009 8:13 PM


You're welcome Carla. And thanks for all you do.

Posted by: Hal at September 14, 2009 10:44 AM


Welfare is now known as TANF. Poverty attorneys and Not-for-profits think TANF is a failure because the grants are too low (in Illinois) and it is too difficult to get on (qualify) and stay on the program. Basically, if the women earns less than whatever grant for which she'd be eligible (plus $90) she can get on the program. After that, they discount $2 for every $3 that the woman earns while on the program.

Example: A single woman with 2 children on TANF would get a grant of $432 per month in Cook County. So long as she can show that she earns less than $522 per month, she can get on the program.

After she is on, she can stay on TANF so long as she can show that she is earning less than $1,296 per month. Her child care will cost her $12 per week for full-time care for two children. She can choose 175 different locations in the City of Chicago alone. Some are at-home daycare and some are institutional day care. She will be exempt from any work requirements so long as she has a child under 12 months of age. She can also be exempt from work if she is engaged in a domestic violence or substance abuse program.

A case worker will craft an individualized "Responsible Services Plan" or "RSP" and will follow up with that woman regularly to make sure she is putting one foot in front of the other to realize the goals outlined in her RSP.

Highlights:

1. Full time NAYCE accredited Child care can cost about $10 per week for TWO kids full time (older than 6 weeks).
2. There is a lot of special help available for domestic violence situations and addiction issues.
3. There is a 60 month life-time benefit limit. This clock can "stop ticking" if the mother does a few things such as attends a post-secondary institution for a certain number of credit hours, etc.
4. Particular assistance can even include small business training and a 5K grant to open your business if the plan is approved, transportation assistance, job hunting costs (hair cut, clothing, resume help, postage allowance, etc.)

Can you believe that only 15% of all eligible Illinois citizens are enrolled on TANF??

Other services:

Medical Card (automatic if you are pregnant and uninsured)

WIC - covers the mother while pregnant and 6 mo. post-partum if bottle feeding and 12 mo. post-partum if breast feeding. Covers children until the age of 5. If you are single and pregnant with no kids and you make less than 20K, you can qualify for WIC

LINK (formerly known as food stamps). A single person with no kids and no income can get $200 in food. A single mother of two making less than $1,200 per month can get more than $600 in free food.

Child care

A woman making less than 185% of the poverty level (which is now $27K for a family of 2 in Illinois) can qualify for deeply subsidized child care.

We should educate ourselves about what is really out there and then we can better counsel these women.

Posted by: Nora Doherty at September 14, 2009 11:49 AM


Brent,

What's wrong with a "save" when we're talking about saving a human life? It's so crazy that pro-aborts spread lies that there are "fake pregnancy centers". When have you ever heard a news report about (a fake) one by the MSM that wasn't fed to them by NARAL and the like?

Don't blame Operation Rescue for more abortions. I'm not buying that. As for delaying an abortion by a week, well what does it matter unless you are worried about a woman being charged more? Sad. For every abortion delayed one week, there was another saved. Not bad.

What do people "know better" about the huge signs depicting late term fetuses? Please don't say abortions don't look like that. Ask Jill.

It's all about deception and lies in the abortion industry.

Posted by: Janet at September 14, 2009 3:37 PM


Brent @4:44 PM,

Have you ever seen a first-trimester aborted fetus? All of AbortionNO.com's photos, and all of their trucks, depict first-trimester abortions, and those got just as strong reactions--perhaps stronger--than late-term pictures. You can tell, very clearly, that what was being destroyed was a human being, and that it was destroyed violently. First-trimester signs "save" just as often as third-trimester. And then, what's the difference? A 5-month-old fetus will look just like a baby, but it will be just as viable as a two-week-old fetus--do looks and dependency really matter when it comes to humanity?

Are we back to square one on that?

As to your war-poster question, if the parents objected to your showing that sign, then no, that's not all right. But with aborted fetuses, the mother actually consented to kill her child, which isn't the case with the parents of the soldier (the mother didn't tell the other side to dismember her son or even hope for it), so therefore I believe, if the mother's going to argue that her aborted fetus shouldn't be shown, first she has to prove that it's hers and second, shouldn't she be brought up on charges of severe child abuse? The photos show this, and if she was disturbed by them enough to object, well, isn't that saying something about the humanity of the fetus? I personally wouldn't give a damn if someone took a snapshot of my donated kidney and stuck it on a poster. What's the difference?

The real question here, cutting through all the and "lies on both sides" (although you've given little example of our supposed lying, other than the poster thing, and pro-life picketing doesn't occur outside CPC's), is whether or not all living human beings deserve the same basic rights. So I ask you now: do we?

Posted by: Abel at September 14, 2009 5:20 PM


Brent, the holocaust pictures were very effective and were morally just. Do you think they were disrespectful?

Posted by: Bethany at September 14, 2009 6:39 PM


Brent, do you have a problem with Peta using images of animals being tortured?

Posted by: Bethany at September 14, 2009 6:42 PM


Brent @ 4:44 PM,

The men and woman going to a recruiting office are there for an honorable reason. They want to defend our country. There is no honor in killing babies. That analogy doesn't work.

As far as showing graphic was pictures of war, I don't think it is necessary because no one lies about the horror of war in the way that pro-aborts lie about babies being a blob of tissue. That analogy doesn't work so well either.

Since you've seen all of these abortions, I'm assuming you work in an abortuary or have assisted or performed abortions in some setting. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

I never said the means justifies the ends and I'm not sure what you're even talking about. Is there a point you are trying to make?

Posted by: Janet at September 14, 2009 7:45 PM


I should correct myself:(7:45 PM)

You didn't say you've seen abortions, but ratheraborted fetuses (sorry, my error in reading your comment). In what situation were you able to see the fetuses if you didn't in fact work at an abortuary?

Posted by: Janet at September 14, 2009 7:51 PM


Brent @ 5:57:

"And, no, a two-week old fetus is not as viable as a 5 month old fetus. Better take Biology 101 again."

A 5 month old is not really more viable outside of the womb than a 2 week old...even with medical intervention...neither are ready for the outside world. However, both are equally viable in the place they were meant and designed to be. Inside their mother's womb.


Posted by: Tom R at September 14, 2009 10:43 PM


Tom R., great post!

Posted by: Bethany at September 16, 2009 12:51 PM