Weekend question

life magazine ultrasound imaging.jpg

On September 18 the inventor of ultrasound imaging, Dr. John J. Wild, died at the age of 95....

Here is the Wall Street Journal's bio of this fascinating man.

Ultrasounds have come a long way, from grainy 2D black and white imagery to 4D video....

Imagine the pro-life movement without ultrasound imaging, the "window to the womb." How has this tool changed the debate?

[HT: Dan Gilgoff of US News & World Report]


Comments:

I share in your sentiment that the ultrasound is an indispensable tool with many wonderful uses for medical professionals and expecting mothers. For example, detecting ectopic pregnancies and fetuses with Down Syndrome so that the mother can make an informed choice on whether or not to continue with or terminate a pregnancy.

However, I must strongly condemn "pro-life" efforts at mandating ultrasounds for women seeking abortions. Such requirements are a gross abuse of the ultrasound technology and a politically-motivated encroachment on the mother's privacy. The ultrasound was never meant to be used to guilt-trip women seeking abortions into continuing pregnancies they do not want and when it is used in this way it's a flagrant violation of both medical ethics and civil rights.

Posted by: Ted at September 26, 2009 12:53 PM


If it's just a non-sentient blob of cells, Ted, what's to "guilt-trip" anyone about?

Posted by: xalisae at September 26, 2009 1:14 PM


when they ultrasound someone's ovary and find a cyst, do they not show it to her so they don't guilt-trip her into not having it removed?

Posted by: xalisae at September 26, 2009 1:17 PM


"Non-sentient blob of cells" (your words, not mine) notwithstanding, it's a fact that pregnant women are hormonally-charged and emotionally vulnerable, especially as it relates to their fetuses. Forcing them to view ultrasound pictures that they don't want to look at is an attempt at manipulating that hormonally-charged emotional state in a way that causes them to behave differently than they intended to in the absence of that unwanted emotional trigger. It's a "pro-life" powerplay designed to circumvent the rule of law that guarantees abortion rights.

As for your ridiculous analogy, I've never heard of any laws legally compelling doctors to forcibly show women, against their will, pictures of ovarian cysts prior to removing them.

Posted by: Ted at September 26, 2009 1:28 PM


Ted,
Tell that to the abortion-minded women I know who were completely amazed and astonished when looking at the ultrasound and embraced life for their child. Guilt? Try truth.

Posted by: carla Author Profile Page at September 26, 2009 1:33 PM


Theodore,

When your mother was pregant with you what species of embryo/fetus was present in her uterus?

Do you consider pregnancy a 'sexually transmitted disease'?

Is pregnancy an infirmity that must be cured with surgery or drugs?

If pregnancy is just an illness then can 'government' require women to be inoculated?

In your estimation are women who 'choose' to remain pregnant mentally ill for enduring an illness that is so easily remedied by simple surgical or chemical intervention.

If the you had growth of one of your testes (assuming you have not already chosen to have them both removed to prevent infecting any more women) would you not want to see the images of the tumor before you gave your consent to having surgery to remedy the situation?

Manly man that you are I am sure that you would want a second opinion and some more images before you made the irreversable decision to be castrated.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at September 26, 2009 1:38 PM


oh yes, so the mother can terminate a baby with Downs because the baby is "imperfect". Unfortunately, while Ultrasound technology has saved 1000s of babies, it has also backfired by being used for evil (Detecting girl babies in China for example).

Ultrasound technology is wonderful and shows that the unborn baby is not a piece of tissue or a blood clot!

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at September 26, 2009 2:01 PM


"Imperfect"? "Imperfect" is being born underweight. Down Syndrome goes way beyond "imperfect." It's a debilitating condition that precludes having any sort of normal, productive existence and requires full-time care for the entire duration of the sufferer's life. There's a good reason 90% of Down Syndrome-afflicted fetuses are now aborted and it's not because the mother is selfish and can't stand the thought of having an "imperfect" child.

Posted by: Ted at September 26, 2009 2:36 PM


What the....?

Ted, you're a bigot. There's no need for anyone to engage with a bigot.

Posted by: Vannah at September 26, 2009 3:36 PM


So, to take the attention and put it back where it belongs, outside of the arena of abortion, where it has definitely been very helpful, the ultrasound has helped all walks of life. It can diagnose illnesses in women, pregnant or not, and is literally lifesaving.

Furthermore, an ultrasound was never used to "bully" or make women feel guilty- it was used as informed consent. Essentially, a woman can't make this decision without knowing all of the facts, including having an accurate knowledge of stage-by-stage pregnancy. They're used to educate and enlighten and advance health.

Definitely they've been good for things outside of the abortion debate; they are pro-life.

As far as ultrasound laws go, an ultrasound is not only informative, but it's also healthy- if they were any kind of doctors (well, first of all they wouldn't end up abortionists), they would like to have an idea of the pregnancy themselves. It ought to be a part of numerous things- long-term and short-term risks, possible complications, alternatives, pros and cons- that women ought to know about before having an abortion.

Education is a tool, not something to use as "bullying."

Posted by: Vannah at September 26, 2009 3:37 PM


Hey Ted,
If as you say: 90% of Down Syndrome-afflicted fetuses are NOT aborted because the mother is selfish and can't stand the thought of having an "imperfect" child. Then what exactly is the reason they choose to abort?

Are you suggesting that those living with Downs are some kind of non-person monsters not worthy of life?

Posted by: Tom R at September 26, 2009 3:37 PM


You know Ted, you really need to watch your mouth. Seriously. I have lurked through the "imperfect child" posts to my absolute fill....who in the HELL ARE YOU to decide whose life is worthy to be lived? My younger brother was born with Retinal Blastoma (genetic), had both eyes removed by the time he was 3 months old, endured countless surgeries, chemo treatments and even a bone marrow transplant. My mother suffered all of this with him as did the rest of us who loved him....he died at the tender age of six back in '79 and we just went through the 30th anniversary of his death last week. To this day friends who knew us all back then comment what a "little gem" my brother was. His existence impacted every life it touched...he was an angel on earth and is still today an integral part of the lives of those who loved him. As far as I'm concerned you and the rest of your "damaged people should be terminated" ilk can go lemming yourselves off a cliff. We all suffered with him and that IS PART OF LIFE. But all of our lives would have been less without him here for the short time we were privileged to know him.

I'm sorry folks....I let most of the drivel roll off me but this was one that finally made me see red. My brother was not ever worthless....he did not ever deserved to be "terminated" lest he suffer and the sadistic morons and useless idiots who parrot this blather have no idea how deeply they insult those of us who knew and loved "imperfect" children...

Posted by: Hooves at September 26, 2009 3:37 PM


Sorry for the spelling errors folks....I was typing in the heat of anger and hit "send" before I spell-checked....

And if I knew how to insert a photo to a comment, Ted, I'd SHOW you the little guy you would have liked to see torn limb from limb for not being "perfect"....

Posted by: Hooves at September 26, 2009 3:52 PM


Hooves, I'm so sorry for the loss of your brother. He sounds like he was such a special person.

Posted by: bethany Author Profile Page at September 26, 2009 4:06 PM


“Special” doesn’t even come close.

He was, quite literally, Heaven Sent. Heaven doesn’t always send “perfect” children….and people like Ted show just how arrogant, ignorant, and shallow they really are.

Forgive me, but I need to bow out of this thread before Ted posts again and I hit full blown apoplexy….

Posted by: Hooves at September 26, 2009 4:20 PM


Ted,
You obviously don't know anyone with Down Syndrome. I feel so sorry for you.
On behalf of all of the students I have had and the friends that have children with Down Syndrome, I invite you to please crawl back under your rock.

Posted by: carla Author Profile Page at September 26, 2009 4:25 PM


What an incredible brother you had, Hooves. I'm sorry that he was taken so soon. :(

Posted by: Vannah at September 26, 2009 4:31 PM


The ultrasound was not invented for the benefit of the anti movement. What an unusual post and unusual spin on history!

Posted by: Dhalgren at September 26, 2009 4:35 PM


Theodore isn't SoMG?

It's a debilitating condition that precludes having any sort of normal, productive existence and requires full-time care for the entire duration of the sufferer's life.

funny, I think Chris Burke would think you were stupid. I'm quite sure he doesn't require "full-time" care nor does he consider himself a "sufferer".

Posted by: angel at September 26, 2009 5:31 PM


"...it's a fact that pregnant women are hormonally-charged and emotionally vulnerable, especially as it relates to their fetuses."

So, a woman IS capable of making a proper decision in regard to her fetus if that decision is to kill it, but if she sees said fetus and decides not to kill it, she's just acting on hormones and doesn't know what she's doing? That's a double-edged sword you're wielding there, Ted.

Your words...not mine.

Posted by: xalisae at September 26, 2009 5:54 PM


You know what Ted? you're sexist! oh us poor hormonal, EMOTIONAL,vulnerable poor little gals just can't handle an ultrasound! We might know the truth and be SAVED from making a terrible mistake and suffering a lifetime of guilt! So better for you big strong men to shield us and make decisions for us. you're attitude says it all Ted....

Posted by: Sydney M at September 26, 2009 7:53 PM


furthermore, my friends have a down's little boy and he is the light of their lives. He has very severe Downs and he is the FAVORITE grandchild of his grandparents. He never disobeys, he never throws a fit but he loves to be held and kissed and snuggled. His life is HIS to live, not yours Ted. Maybe since you're obviously such a bitter jerk, YOUR life is "imperfect" and you shouldn't be allowed to live...see where your logic takes you? If you call into question the sanctity of someone else's life you call into question the sanctity of your own.

Posted by: Sydney M at September 26, 2009 8:00 PM


My mother's cousin, "C" went home last December. Shall we read about his "debilitating condition that precludes having any sort of normal, productive existence and requires full-time care for the entire duration of the sufferer's life? In his sister's words:


...born in 1955, C's mother suspected there was something unique about him. Her suspicions were confirmed about 6 months later when C was diagnosed with Downs Syndrome. Faced with the choice (prevalent at that time) whether to keep C at home or relinquish him to an institution to provide for his unique needs, C's parents were committed to keeping him within the family. C has had a profound impact on his family. He was loved and nurtured to the full extent of his capabilities all the days of his life.

The son of a Lutheran pastor who accepted a Call to be pastor of Messiah Lutheran Church, C moved, with his family, in 1956. The family home was a parsonage provided by the church. It had a very small yard and C had a huge desire to explore the world outside the limits of the fenced yard. In spite of his young age and limits to his ability to learn, it was obvious that he had some special gifts as an "escape artist". In spite of multiple locks on doors and fence gates, designed to keep him safe within established limits, he was able to figure out how to get past every obstacle set before him. He even figured out how to lock his mother in the basement as she washed clothes down there, allowing him the needed time to move chairs to facilitate getting to the highest locks, then proceeding out the door and out of the yard to explore uninhibited. It didn't take him long to learn the route from home to the nearest Dairy Queen where he was usually rewarded with ice cream, even though he arrived penniless. He was a charmer even at that young age. His parents and siblings learned to check for him there before searching elsewhere in the neighborhood. The local police, when called by Dairy Queen employees, quickly learned the route back to his home and returned him safely there on several occasions.

Given the opportunity to purchase a home of their own a few years later, his parents chose a small farm outside the city limits, near the end of a quiet country lane, surrounded by 10 acres of tree dotted pasture. The first time C walked out of the door of this home (which had no special locks to restrict his explorations), he walked a few yards and then turned back to see if anyone was following him. Inside the house, the family watched as he walked a few more yards and repeated his check for followers. He repeated this process several more times as he left the yard and walked up the country road. Finally, assured that no one was going to restrict his explorations, he returned home, never to wander again. He was content to remain within the limits of the 10 acres, mingling with the chickens, cows, horses and cats that were now part of his "family". He was always accompanied by the family dog, Fawna, who looked after him as if he were her very own "pup". The cows treated him as one of their own, allowing him to grab their horns and climb on their backs as they lay chewing their cud. When C was on horseback, the same horse that loved to gallop to the closest low hanging apple tree branch in an attempt to dislodge her rider, never tried that maneuver with him. In fact, when once he inadvertently lost his grip on the saddle and fell off the horse, she promptly stopped and returned to stand protectively beside him until help arrived. It seemed that all the "critters" regarded him as one of "their own".

In 1965, C's father accepted a call to Calvary Lutheran Church. The family moved to a home on four acres of land on what was then the edge of town. C soon became involved in Special Education suited for his age and abilities. When it was appropriate he was advanced into the Special Education Program at Sunset High School. He graduated from the Sunset High program, at the age of 21, complete with cap and gown, in ceremony with the entire senior class of that year. As each graduate took their place on stage left, they were given their diploma or certificate of completion, received a congratulatory hand shake from the administrative staff, and then proceeded across the stage where one was given a rose and one final word of congratulation prior to marching down the steps and returning to their assigned seat. When C took his place on stage left, the entire senior class rose to give him a standing ovation, far surpassing any recognition given any other graduating senior that day. Always one to have an impeccable sense of timing and drama, C proceeded to center stage, removed his cap and took at full, seeping bow, acknowledging the applause of all his admirers. He then proceeded with dignity to stage right for his rose and final handshake, down the steps and back to his assigned seat. It was obvious that C had continued to charm his classmates just as he had charmed the Dairy Queen employees years before.

During these same years, C participated in the life of Calvary Lutheran Church. He was confirmed in his Lutheran faith. He learned the responsibilities of being an acolyte, lighting the worship candles before the service began and extinguishing them as the service ended. He sang, in his own fashion, the hymns of the church, several of which became life-long favorites, most noteably "Jesus Loves Me" and "How Great Thou Art". He observed the Motion Choir that would occasionally enhance the worship music with orchestrated motions depicting the words being sung. He learned to listen to the dynamics of the music and orchestrate his own solo performances, similar to those of the Motion Choir. His favorite was providing motion enhancement to the words of "O Holy Night" which he performed annually until 2007, in front of the family Christmas tree.

Following his graduation from Sunset High, C went to work at the T----- Valley Workshop. He quickly became independent in taking the city bus to and from work. He enjoyed having a job and quickly became acquainted with his co-workers and supervisory staff. He was out-going, gregarious as always, quick to give a hug and often a smooch of a kiss on any cheek willing to receive it.

From there, C's Dad accepted a one-year call to Salem Lutheran Church. By now the home family was limited to C, his Mother and Father.

A year later they moved and C and his parents were founding members of Nativity Lutheran Church. C participated in the congregation as he had for years, serving as its first acolyte. He worked at Opportunity Center of Central ------, under the direction of a manager with a unique ability to win contracts from large corporations, and then design a fail-proof system for his special-needs employees to accomplish the tasks required so they met those business contracts with greater accuracy than the same work being done by "normal" employees elsewhere. The Opportunity Center flourished and the employees earned wages unheard of before. C actually had to file an income tax return for the first time in his life. He loved his job. He loved his paycheck, of which he always got a portion for his own spending (the rest went into his savings account). C shopped for himself. He liked to buy watches, usuallly several each year. He would have had a large collection of them had he not misplaced many of them along the way.

During these years he learned to swim, down-hill ski, go bowling, and participate in several events at the Special Olympics. He has many Special Olympic medals to show for his efforts in this arena.

When that manager of the Opportunity Center left his position to pursue a doctorate, no one else was able to bring his same unique skills to the Center and its success declined rapidly. C's parents began to explore other work possibilities for C. Finding a position in a sheltered workshop, the family moved there. They joined St Matthew's Lutheran Church, becoming active participants there. As usual, C had no problem learning the new bus route to and from work and getting aquainted with his new co-workers and the members of his new congregation.

Planning ahead for the time when they would no longer be able to care for C (due to their advancing age), and wanting him to have increased independence, C's parents had been exploring and applying other living situations for C for several years. When they received word that Lutheran Good Shepherd had an opening, they immediately accepted it. C moved into that community living situation and his parents moved to be near him so he could visit them on weekends. They joined Emanuel Lutheran Church in because that congregation had a special education adult Sunday School class that would fit C's needs. C has been a member of that congregation and a part of the Lutheran Good Shepherd/ Bethesda community ever since. He has served as acolyte at Emanuel as often as he could possibly finagle it.

C's love of music continued to his last day. His ability to win friends never ceased. His child-like faith in Jesus was consistent and unfailing. He always loved a party, especially weddings. He held the marriage relationship in high esteem and "proposed" to many single women during his lifetime, never discouraged by lack of acceptance of those proposals. Those he held in special esteem we greeted with a hug and the words, "You my Friend!" He loved to engage others in the simple song, "Where is (enter that persons name)?" That required the response of "Here I am." C would then answer, "How are you today, Sir?" expecting the response of "Very well I thank you" and ending with "We're all here, we're all here!" C then hoped that someone else would initiate the same song to him, singing, "Where is C?" That gave him opportunity to respond boldly and proudly with "Here I am!" continuing on to the final phrase of "We're all here!"

C's love of music was apparent from a very early age. Even though he was unable to master any formal instrumental learning, he had a sense of rhythm as steady as a clock and a musical ear that guided his fingers to find notes, on any keyboard, that somehow blended pleasantly even though the composition was entirely of his own making. As a little child, he loved to listen to his siblings as they gained keyboard skill, sometimes lying on the floor beneath the piano with his head resting on the foot of the pianist. In that position he enjoyed the music from the instrument while sensing the rhythm from the motion of the foot using the expression pedals below his head. During his life he played keyboard, drums, tamborines, marimbas, and bells. His ultimate joy was participating as a member of the Lutheran Good Shepherd Bell Choir. The special direction by its conductor facilitated the special needs of its musicians, so the music made gave pleasure to the participants and audience alike. In fact, his last act in life was entering Trinity Lutheran Church on December 7, where he was scheduled to perform with that Bell Choir for their Christmas Concert. Unfortunately he had a cardiac arrest in the narthex, was transported to the hospital, where he died the next morning surrounded by family and friends.

C was preceeded in death by his parents. He grieved their deaths, while being confident that they had gone to Heaven to be with Jesus. He looked forward to the day when he would be with them again in Heaven. No doubt, when that day came last Monday, he greeted them with hugs and kisses. No doubt he is making music and dancing for joy in ways far surpassing what he was able to accomplish on earth. No doubt he is eagerly getting acquainted with all the heavenly throngs and has already climbed into the "lap" of Jesus without reservation or timidity.

C will be missed by his 3 siblings, his nephews and their children, his nieces and their children. He will also be missed by his Lutheran Good Shepherd/ Bethesda Family who have lived with him, worked along side him, celebrated and cherished him on a daily basis ever since he joined their community so many years ago. He will be missed by friends from the many congregations where he has been a member, especially Emanuel Lutheran Church where he was nurtured and had opportunity to serve until the end of his life.

Blessed be the memory of C.

P.S. I'm including a letter from his nephew that provides his perspective on C's life:

Dear Uncle~

It's hard to put down in words the feelings I have knowing that I won't be able to come visit you anymore. I won't be able to call you on the phone or send you a letter. I will miss that part of not having you around. Please forgive me for not being closer to you. It's times like this one where ------- feels like another planet and the reach between us insurmountable. Know that I have always loved you, I will never forget you and that you will always remain an important part of my growing up. Even now, there are things I can say for certain I learned from you that now one else could really show me. Things like always be a kid, love the Lord with all your heart, pray, sing, love eating and never forget to hug when you greet someone, leave someone or don't have anything else better to do.

Those hugs! I will also miss the hugs and the laughing and the playing piano on all the white keys and then playing piano on all the black keys. I'll miss watching Lawrence Welk together and getting to watch you acolyte at church. I'll miss watching you pretend to read books like Ulysses and War and Peace and really read books like the Bible. I'll missing singing hymns with you and watching you play the bells at church. I'll miss having coffee together or dinner or lunch or a late breakfast. I'll miss cuddling on the couch with you and reading Barney books. I'll miss Christmas time and sharing familiar songs and unwrapping presents. I'll miss not being able to share you more with my girls but don't worry: they will hear about you and see your picture and I'll get to tell them this:

See, A and S, this is your great uncle C. A, you got to meet C one time when you were very little and S, you only got to hear C on the phone. Your great uncle was very special and taught us all a lot about living and about life. If C were here right now, he would give you a hug and say: "I love you" or "Silly Goose" or "Jesus loves you." C had many talents: he could play the piano and the hand bells and loved to sing. One of his favorite songs was Jesus Loves Me. He could play the piano and sing that at the same time. And it was like no version of Jesus Loves Me you had ever heard before but it was something to remember. Uncle C loves you girls. I know that because he loved everyone he met. From the time I was born to now, C never changed. He was always the same with his attitude and how he shared three core beliefs: I love you, Jesus loves you and tickling is fun.

I will miss you C. More now than ever. Please hug your mom and dad for us. We'll be coming for a visit where you are in due time. Please check in on our girls from time to time if you think of it: watch over and protect them. I will do my best to pass on to them the love that you so easily showed us by being who God intended for you be: a terrific uncle, a loving little brother and a dedicated and adoring son. May we all be able to match your grace in some small way.

--------------------------------------------

It saddens me that anyone would dare suggest that this was not a life worthy of living. When we eliminate people we consider imperfect, we are the poorer for it.

Posted by: klynn73 at September 26, 2009 8:02 PM


You know Ted,

Pro·abort people often refer to a 6 weeks old fetus as pregnancy tissue. You just need to read clinic´s web page. I´m sorry but most pregnant woman after seeing the little "tissue" in a 4D ultrasound will understand that it is more than that and perhaps gain strenght and courage in continuing the pregnancy.

I just wonder about all the woman who were told it is just " tissue" and then they see the documentary.

Ultrasound permit us to see and know what is going on.
Actually I dare an abortion doctor to turn on a 4D ultrasound while performing an abortion. A 4D Silent Scream might be what is needed to finally wake up. But of course if it ever comes out, prolifers or the doctor will be accused of manipulating images, ect. I don´t think they would dare try it. There is too much at stake.

Posted by: Chantal at September 26, 2009 8:16 PM


I know a couple that attends my Parish who adopted a baby boy with Downs Syndrome. His birth mom knew he would have Downs,but instead of destroying him through abortion, she gave him life and then placed him in the arms of a couple who could not have a baby of their own. Yes, he does have medical issues (he has autism) but he is THEIR son.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at September 26, 2009 8:48 PM


Ultrasound...You can actually see(up close) the developing baby-how awe inspiring is that!

Posted by: Robyn at September 26, 2009 9:14 PM


Ted, I would like to enlighten you a bit as I work in direct care at a residential facility, on a unit with severely disabiled girls, including those with Down Syndrome. First of, the severity and impact of the mental retardation falls on a spectrum and depends if other developmental disabilities are present as well as availability of special education programs and early intervention. Also, there are medical and surgical interventions to correct and improve physical conditions associated with DS (such as surgery which correct heart defects and occupational therapy for muscle weakness and coordination, and occupational/life skills training). Anyways, there is no reason why these individuals can't live healthy and productives lives and why they shouldn't be given a chance.

Posted by: Rachael C. at September 26, 2009 9:52 PM


The Nazi's were known to experiment on the disabled, especially those with DOWNS.

I think someone posted a similar video to this, its about a grocery bagger named Johnny, who has Downs:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5059143759817044986#

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at September 26, 2009 10:05 PM


"Imperfect"? "Imperfect" is being born underweight." My little girl was 4 pounds, 2 ounces when she was born. She WAS and IS 'perfect'. BTW..she's 2 1/2 now, and TALL for her age, and her weight is right within average for her age. She was born 7 weeks early...and she was perfectly healthy. There is only ONE who was born 'perfect'..and I'm afraid you're not HIM, Ted.

Posted by: Pamela at September 26, 2009 10:24 PM


Also take into consideration that when many women received an adverse prenatal diagnosis such as a condition such as Down Syndrome, they were given worse-case scenario and frightening statistics by the obstetrician/geneticists (as a means to protect themselves against a wrongful birth lawsuit) and abortion is often the first and often only option given (it is often immediately assumed she will want to abort even if she is considering carrying to term or undecided). She often faces both subtle and not so subtle pressure to have an abortion by her doctors, her spouse, and even family members to have an abortion. Yet there are numerous educational and support groups for parents, created by parents of infants, children, and adults with DS, but doctors are ofen unfortuantly unaware of these groups and rarely inform expectant mothers of these resources. I recommend visiting BeNotAfraid.net for first-hand stories of expectant women and a number of resources for those facing an adverse prenatal diagnosis.

Posted by: Rachael C. at September 26, 2009 10:38 PM


It has made the pro-death positiion indefensible.

They are without excuse!

Still, pro-aborts spit in the wind.

Posted by: Phil Schembri is HisMan at September 26, 2009 10:46 PM


Troll or not, sadly Ted sounds like some individuals I've encountered, who were grossly misinformed and/or ignorant about those with developmental disabilities or those with a mental illness.

Posted by: Rachael C. at September 26, 2009 10:50 PM


has the debate changed?

Posted by: sarah at September 26, 2009 11:17 PM


Ted:

Your cavalier attitude is pretty out there.

I think you are SoMG.

Moderators, please check.

Posted by: Phil Schembri is HisMan at September 27, 2009 1:07 AM


I agree with HisMan... this has got to be a troll/SoMG.

And my SIL who has DS is the light of ALL of our lives... her parents, her siblings, mine, her nieces and nephews, cousins, aunts and uncles, and family friends.

She swims on the high school swim team. Last week my FIL was there and heard the coach pick two team "captains" who did the old "choose a team" routine where each captain says a name, and so on. His immediate reaction was, "Well, she'll probably be one of the last ones picked." Actually, no... the kids on her team have known her since kindergarten. She is now a junior in high school. She was among the first half of the group chosen, right around the middle. Dad choked up just telling us about it... nobody wanted her to feel left out.

My SIL is not "suffering". Not in the least. Nor will she ever, as when my MIL and FIL can no longer care for her, we will. And should we be blessed that she lives a long and healthy enough life to outlive OUR care... our eldest children have already pledged that they will continue to care for her... and with seven of our own kids, she will have plenty of choices!

Posted by: Elisabeth at September 27, 2009 2:01 AM


HOW ABOUT THIS ONE!!! Just this past Thursday, I, a pro-lifer, had a "civilized conversation" with a PP escort (she was off-duty) in front of the clinic on abortion day in which she declared that it was a matter of personal opinion whether or not a fetus was human, and when life begins. It was raining. I asked her if it was a matter of personal opinion if it was raining at that moment. She said I was being absurd.

I wonder if that woman has ever looked at a high quality ultrasound of a baby at 8-12 weeks gestation...

Posted by: MEL at September 27, 2009 8:06 AM


Hooves and Klynn73, thank you for sharing those heartwarming stories about your family members.

How has 4D Ultrasound changed the debate on abortion?

For us Pro-lifers, it is one more piece of evidence documenting the humanity, personhood and preciousness of preborn babies. This imagery strengthens our determination to continue to fight the culture of death that has made the slaughter of over a million innocent children and victimization of over a million young mothers a legal, lucrative, $4 billion per year industry in the US.

To the Pro-death crowd, it offers a clear indictment of their hard, calloused, evil, wicked hearts. That they would advocate for the brutal, barbaric, heinous dismemberment and murder of God's precious little babies is unconscionable and intolerable. It defines their truly macabre nature, which they have received from their father, the devil himself.

Then there are many in the middle, not really wanting to concern themselves with the genocide being perpetrated in their neighborhoods. They say, "Oh well, innocent babies are being mercilessly slaughtered. I guess that's a decision between a mother and her doctor."

Your apathy in light of 4D Ultrasound imagery condemns you. As part of the company of "The Lukewarm" you qualify to be spewed out of God's mouth. In other words, you make God sick to His stomach.

4D Ultrasound is a 20,000 watt searchlight exposing the hard truth of what abortion is, who its victims are, and who in our society is culpable for the blood-red stain on American culture and mankind worldwide. Like the graphic abortion imagery displayed by groups like the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform, it has a defining and polarizing effect.

Abortion is genocide.

America, REPENT!

Posted by: Ed at September 27, 2009 8:24 AM


That's crazy, MEL. That's just plain crazy. Humans give birth to humans, not dogs, not cats, not calves, not cubs! HUMAN BABIES.

I think fetal development should be mandatory in school, instead of sex ed. Learning about the amazing development of the human being before birth is important.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at September 27, 2009 10:21 AM


Mel:

According to this PP worker, when does it change from an opinion to a human? I guess after it's exit from the womb then?

Isn't that preety stupid scientifically?

And these people are "healthcare workers"?

Posted by: Phil Schembri is HisMan at September 27, 2009 11:52 AM


"Ted stated, "Forcing them to view ultrasound pictures that they don't want to look at is an attempt at manipulating that hormonally-charged emotional state in a way that causes them to behave differently than they intended to in the absence of that unwanted emotional trigger"

First, where in the US is it mandatory that a woman view an ultrasound? I am unware of any law that goes any further than requiring that option be made available. Secondly, if simply viewing an ultrasound image causes a hormonally-charged woman in an emotional state to behave differently than intended in the absence of the ultrasound viewing, how do you suppose the abortion option affects a hormonally charged woman in an emotional state? According to The Elliot Institute, as many as 64 percent of women claim that they felt pressured to abort. So when it comes to being informed on the development of a woman's unborn child, she's just a fragile little flower who must be protected from medical information. But when it comes to having surgery that will end the life of her unborn child, the same emotionally-compromised hormone-stricken woman is perfectly capable of making an objective decision?

Also, maybe the baby's father or another male can attend the ultrasound with the women so he can cover her eyes if it becomes too intense for her. We wouldn't want such simple creatures to worry their pretty little heads with medical science, now would we? Next thing you know, they'll want to vote or own property.

Posted by: Janette at September 27, 2009 1:05 PM


A matter of opinion is important to anyone, but there is nothing intolerant about us refusing to be tolerant of intolerance (whew...). We don't have to put up with their disrespecting human rights. Some arbitrary bull definition that separates humans? Stupid. And it has, from slavery to Rwanda, been a horrific failure.

Equal rights- nothing more, nothing less.

Posted by: Vannah at September 27, 2009 1:56 PM


angel,

My first thought about Theodore's ridiculous remarks was that he must have some vested interest in the abortion industry and he certainly sparked some heartfelt comments for what it's worth. SOMG fits the bill and knows he shouldn't be here.

Theodore,
You are so wrong.

Posted by: Janet at September 27, 2009 2:14 PM


Hooves,
I'm so sorry for your loss of your brother. It must be so hard to get through the anniversary of his death every year. I lost a baby brother one day after he was born and can't wait for the day to meet him again. He's my angel in Heaven. Thank you for your comments.

Posted by: Janet at September 27, 2009 2:15 PM


I guess it must be emotional to look at an ultrasound and realize those pro-choicers have been lying to them all this time. You are right Ted, it must be hard to know that a baby won't be killed some time when their mother realizes it's not just a "blob of tissue," after all.

Posted by: prettyinpink at September 27, 2009 4:55 PM


Thank you everyone for your comments about my brother. I don’t have the eloquent letter posted by klynn73 (which was very dear and sweet, btw!), but I can share several memories that would never have happened if my mother had decided to abort her “damaged” fetus….gosh, I can’t even fathom thinking of Danny as a “fetus”….

Since he was blind and couldn’t always find me in the big backseat of our enormous Ford station wagon in order to irritate me by “touching” me….he would hum at me instead. Mom heard many a whine from the back seat, “Mah-ooom…….he’s HUMMING AT ME!!!”

He preferred my arm to his cane. And taught me never to leave doors half-open.

He once popped his fake eyeball out on purpose in front of one of my friends to freak her out. Of course she squealed quite satisfactorily and then went home and told her mom that “Danny can pop out his eyeball!” For which she was promptly spanked and sent to bed without dinner for lying. Her mom called my mom to clear up the matter and was much chagrined to find out Danny COULD in fact, pop out his eyeball.

He stopped Mom once in a parking lot after running his hands along the backs of the parked cars and said, “Mom, this is our car.” It was not our car. But it was the same make, model, year and COLOR…..we never did figure out how he did that.

His favorite treat was an “Extra Large Triple Malt Chocolate Shake” from Goodrich Dairy on Wednesday nights. It wasn’t until I was a teenager that I learned those trips for ice cream were specifically intended to try to keep weight on him after a round of chemo….

After his last surgery he was left with a gaping hole in his face where they removed his entire eye socket back to his brain and down to his throat. He wore a gauze pad over it held in place with an eye patch (Don’t tell HIM it’s not a PIRATE PATCH!!). He thought it was consummately cool that no one would be able to smother him by covering his nose and mouth….because he could breathe through his eye.

He used to freak out women at church by walked up to them and “breathing” through his eye patch, thus making it flex in and out or yanking off his floppy hat that always hid his bald head…..remember his reward was auditory….and older church ladies make a fantastic target for extracted screams.

We attended a VERY conservative Presbyterian church—you were not to applaud anything, even a guest singer. Once, after Danny’s latest stay at the hospital we were sitting in the front pew (his favorite, of course) and he wanted to stand up and “give thanks” during the “give thanks/prayer request” time. So he stood on the pew, faced the congregation, and in his tiny, 5-year-old-little-bird voice clearly said, “I want to thank everyone for their prayers for me while I was in the hospital….” He got a roaring standing ovation from over 500 people…..I still get chills telling that story.

I remember the night he died in my mom’s arms. He went into convulsions on the couch and she and Dad scooped him up and shot to the hospital. I was sent to stay with a church friend. Danny died en route and they came and got me in the morning. I’ll never forget my dad’s words. “I have good news and bad news. The good news is Danny is no longer suffering. The bad news is he won’t be here with us anymore.”

My dad was murdered the day before the second anniversary of Danny’s death. The good news is Dad is with Danny. The bad news is I had to grow up without my dad.

We put a monarch butterfly on the cover of Danny’s memorial service program. To this day I think of him every single time I see one. I am surprised that after 30 years the memories are as sharp and clear as if they were yesterday….and as painful as some of them are I wouldn’t trade the worst of them for one day without Danny in my life. I will carry his legacy, memory and love with me to my own grave….the day I am carried on monarch wings back to my father and brother.

I can only pity those who are so hard inside that they will NEVER know that kind of love….or sacrifice. It is the love you can only feel when you give your heart unconditionally to someone who isn’t one of the “beautiful people”.

Posted by: Hooves at September 27, 2009 5:56 PM


Some of you shared some very moving stories about your experiences with family members or other people suffering from physical and genetic disabilities whose lives you feel enriched your own in some way. While I was certainly moved to tears at various points while reading these touching anecdotes, I'm not sure exactly how they counter my original statement that such conditions prevent a normal life as a productive member of society. I'm also not sure why this is such a controversial thing to say. If we can be honest with ourselves for a moment here and try to look at things objectively rather than emotionally, we're forced to conclude that a sufferer of Down Syndrome, for example, simply cannot and will not ever become a productive, useful member of society. Reality can be a cruel thing sometimes but we must do our best to come to terms with it, rather than hide from it.

Posted by: Ted at September 27, 2009 6:49 PM


Ted, I guess it comes down to whether you view a person's worth by how "productive" they are or by an intrinsic value that is fundamentally immeasurable. I don't think that a normal person is "worth" more than a handicapped person, because worth shouldn't be measured by productivity. If that is the case we might as well off all the sick and the lame. Disastrous things have happened when governments start to take on this mindset. As a person with epilepsy I must take medicine that surely takes more time and resources than a person without it does. If this then becomes a measure of my worthiness to live, please kill me first, because I'd rather not live in a world where this is considered a normal outlook on life.

Posted by: prettyinpink at September 27, 2009 6:57 PM


Thank you Hooves for these beautiful memories of your brother and your wonderful family. I am so sorry for your loss. How dare anyone say that Danny was "immperfect" and "should never have been born". How dare anyone think that human beings are capable of deciding who is "fit" or the "unfit" (Margaret Sanger's words and recent sentiments of Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg, who I pray will repent before she leaves this earth for expressing such thoughts). How dare anyone think that they should decide who should live and who should die inside or outside of the womb. I pray for all the preborn babies right now who are in danger because they are not "perfect", whatever that is. All the babies with Down's Syndrome, Trisomy 13, deformed hands or feet, cleft palates and any other challenges who's mothers are going to receive "genetic counseling" to abort them, forgive me for not using the sanitized word "terminate" them. The end result is the same, a dead baby. I pray that their mothers' will chose LIFE.

Posted by: Prolifer L at September 27, 2009 6:59 PM


"Reality can be a cruel thing sometimes but we must do our best to come to terms with it, rather than hide from it."

Which does better at doing that?
Raising your child or killing it?

Posted by: prettyinpink at September 27, 2009 7:17 PM


Wow! I just read the last comments posted by Ted. Wow! Hitler's spirit is NOT dead. Boy, Ted you would have been right at home at the death camps in Germany and in the slave markets in Western Africa. If you don't make the cut for productivity you're "out of here". I cannot remember which social engineer you remind me of. Maybe productivity cleansing sounds much nicer than ethnic cleansing but I am sure my ancestors would never have qualified in the "survival of the fittest" contest you have going in your mind. Talk about being a legend in your own mind, you have more nerve than anyone I ever known or at least anyone willing to express in print. If I may ask, why are you stopping by a prolife blog dropping off all of these bombs? What is the point or do you just you enjoy trolling to see what reaction you can get? I think it is time for the ignore treatment like a pesky gnat. Thanks prolifers for your beautiful post but sometimes you are just "casting your pearls before swine" like the Bible says.

Posted by: Prolifer L at September 27, 2009 7:31 PM


I am beginning to think Ted really is SOMG. Or a freak combination of Hitler and Sanger DNA.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at September 27, 2009 8:10 PM


Wow Ted. I will just assume that you Ted, take no medication, and never have. If you do or ever have, I guess you should have been put to death. I do not take any medication, therefore, simply put, I am much more useful to society Sorry, guess you gotta go! Your rules!

Posted by: luvmy6kids at September 27, 2009 8:28 PM


Ted, I spoke in concise medical terms and in collective experiences from many parents, however I dare to say that until you work directly with the disabled and their parents and open your mind, you will continue to remain in ignorance.

Posted by: Rachael C. at September 27, 2009 9:16 PM


From Dictionary.com:
pro⋅duc⋅tive
–adjective
1. having the power of producing; generative; creative: a productive effort.
2. producing readily or abundantly; fertile: a productive vineyard.
3. causing; bringing about (usually fol. by of): conditions productive of crime and sin.
4. Economics. producing or tending to produce goods and services having exchange value.
5. Grammar. (of derivational affixes or patterns) readily used in forming new words, as the suffix -ness.
6. (in language learning) of or pertaining to the language skills of speaking and writing (opposed to RECEPTIVE ).


Definition 1) I would submit that my brother’s existence produced, generated and created not only many memorable events, but many life lessons to be carried in perpetuity from everyone who knew him personally.

Definition 2) I would submit that my brother’s existence readily and abundantly created useful life and personal integration skills to everyone he met personally and those that the first generation “Danny-ites” interacted with throughout their lives (think “pebble in a pond”)….

Definition 3) I would submit that my family spent a fortune on artificial eyes, medical care, specialized toys, household items, landscaping and teaching services for my brother.

Definition 4) Blind-NESS: an affliction of those so hardened by their own arrogance that they see less than a child with no eyes.

Definition 5) As in a blind child who reaches for a new toy and says, “Let me see….”


Ted, may I respectfully suggest that you read “Architects of Annihilation”...available on Amazon.

But then again, maybe you already have…..

Posted by: Hooves at September 27, 2009 9:49 PM


Ahhh--I just realized I mis-number at 3. Since my brother was incapable of crime and/or sin in the way we would assign it I feel that my argument stands....

Posted by: Hooves at September 27, 2009 9:55 PM


Ted,

You say you were moved to tears reading the anecdotes about how these physically challenged people heroically and courageously lived their lives loving, and being loved, deeply enriching the lives of those who knew them.

Why do you go back and try to justify your position that their murder would have been justified if their mother had sought that "service" thinking their lives wouldn't have been as productive?

I think you need to read the anecdotes again, perhaps several more times.

Posted by: Ed at September 27, 2009 10:02 PM


And Ted, by your definition everyone on welfare should be lined up and shot. Including those annoying "homeless" parasites with their pathetic cardboard “will work for food” signs since they produce NOTHING. And while we’re at it, how about every retail employee whose only job is to sell crap since they don’t PRODUCE anything. And let’s go ahead and throw in every lawyer and government employee (I can say that, I used to be a CA state firefighter…),housewives, nurses, librarians, bus drivers, infantrymen, teachers, journalists, entertainers, managers, salesmen, delivery drivers, shipping clerks, doctors, surgeons, receptionists, admin. assistants, HR pros, accountants, etc., ad nauseum ….need I go on?

If you measure human worth by what they PRODUCE then you are on a slippery slope indeed……

Posted by: Hooves at September 27, 2009 10:12 PM


Hooves:

Wow, what a moving account.

I am so sorry you lost your brother Danny and dad.

No worry, heaven is our home. No death, no disease, no sin, no tears, no sorrow. Surely, your dad and bro are shedding tears for you now in your earthly struggles that remain. Perhaps Danny is helping Jesus prepare that mansion with many rooms. For who better to know what you would like and dislike than your blind bother who's imagination is far bigger than those of us who can see? Go ahead, dream about it.

And Ted:

If God deems a child worthy just to be born, that is enough for me. We should not question God's will by executing the child via abortion.

Besides, in the fullness of time, when all is said, all is made, all is spent and all is burnt up and Jesus returns, we will not be judged on how "productive" we were, we will be judged on how we treated Jesus as represented by the "least of these", for our works are as "filthy rags" in His sight.

If a "Downs Syndrome" child or any other handicapped child comes into the world I am sure we are entertaining "angels unawares".

Tell me Ted, what great works have you performed that we should vote for your reprieve from a holy God's wrath? You see, with God, perfection is required, not just good or even best. PERFECT is required and you ain't.

Please read the last few chapters of Job and God will ask you a few questions through that book of the Bible.

Posted by: Phil Schembri is HisMan at September 27, 2009 10:55 PM


Well, Ted, you're already getting slammed, but I have to point something out. You said:

"I'm not sure exactly how they counter my original statement that such conditions prevent a normal life as a productive member of society. I'm also not sure why this is such a controversial thing to say."

Several people here have pointed out how they have grown and their lives have been enriched by those with special needs. Is that not productive?
In a society filled with selfishness and greed, one where people pay thousands of dollars a year to "find themselves" and find happiness and fulfillment, I would think these special needs children are contributing in a major way. A way that nobody else on this Earth can. They are making good people better. What better contribution is there?

Posted by: Amanda at September 27, 2009 11:28 PM


Indeed, beginning to judge the value of other humans based on our own perceptions, beliefs, and biases can lead us down a dangerous path and down a slippery slope, a lesson we should've already learned in history. Also this kind of thinking can lead to generalizations, stereotyping, and stigma towards an individual or group of individuals who have similiar or same characteristics.

Posted by: Rachael C. at September 28, 2009 12:12 AM


The worst thing about Ted is not so much the things he says, but the sanctimonious tone. It's as appalling as watching one of those old pro-Nazi pre-war propaganda films coldly discussing inhumane ideas, all in the name of building a better society.

Posted by: Stephan at September 28, 2009 3:15 AM


TED--you better never retire or you're gonna have to be "put down" because at that point you are no longer a productive member of society.

I know a man with Down Syndrome who is a bagger at my local supermarket. Always there with a smile on his face...bags my groceries quickly and efficiently (doesn't put the heavy items on top of my eggs and bread which some NON-Down syndrome baggers have done in the past!) Then compare this man to another guy I know who is addicted to pot and can't bring himself to stay employed but lives at 25 years of age with his parents and lives off them. Who is the more "productive" member of society?

MEL---I would asked the PP deathscort that if a doctor found a lump in her breast and told her it was "a matter of opinion" whether the lump was cancer of not, what she would think of that? Her argument is ABSURD. OPINION does NOT affect BIOLOGY!

Posted by: Sydney M at September 28, 2009 8:15 AM


Hooves,

Sorry about the loss of your brother.

To the rest of you,

Great job defending those among us who Ted calls "unproductive".

Posted by: carrie at September 28, 2009 12:01 PM


"The worst thing about Ted is not so much the things he says, but the sanctimonious tone."

Stephen,
I agree. When other comments are tinged with eugenics, usually it's just half-baked talking points that sound appealing on the surface and are repeated here without real conviction. Just loosely tied together sound bytes thrown out in an attempt to assign any sort of merit to abortion. It's hard to take those types of comments seriously when it's doubtful that their authors have given the statements much thought. But Ted's comments are so calculated and dispassionate; he truly believes that human worth is subjective and can (and should) be measured. As I'm typing this, I'm picturing a slave's teeth being inspected at an auction, similar to the way a horse's teeth are inspected during a show. That sort of mental disconnect that is essentially saying, "your stories about disabled family members are cute, but to be an efficient society we must let go of our emotional attachment to the unfit," and believing that is an acceptible sentiment. It's frightening, really.

Posted by: Janette at September 28, 2009 3:23 PM


Great posts! We grew up with a mentally retarded child in the neighborhood. His whole family was happy to ahve him in the family. He has been able to work, as an adult, in a supported work setting. His pride would shine when you would ask about his work. The "reason" to abort a mentally retarded not-yet-born child is to spare us misery, not the person with mental retardation.

Just another anecdote to suggest that the life-of-misery is ours, not theirs.

Posted by: Row1 at September 28, 2009 9:17 PM


The part that ticks me off is how he keeps calling people with Down's "sufferers". My SIL doesn't suffer at all. Her world is full of nothing but love (and I intend to do my part to keep it that way!)

Posted by: Elisabeth at September 28, 2009 9:23 PM