Pelosi's office trashed; priest + 11 arrested

Nancy Pelosi, healthcare, abortion, Randall Terry.jpg

The above is a shot of the wild scene outside Nancy Pelosi's office yesterday afternoon, as described in The Hill last night...

Conservative protesters chanting "Kill that bill!" stormed the Capitol on Thursday as Republicans launched a last-ditch effort against the Democrats' healthcare bill.

The protesters from around the country entered House office buildings after attending the "House Call" rally on healthcare, largely the brainchild of Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN)....

It is unclear how many people attended the event, thought the protesters appeared to number in the thousands. House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) estimated 10k attended.

Our own Bethany's parents even attended the House Call rally! Attendees were encouraged to take a page from the 2k page healthcare bill to their congressperson's office and demand s/he explain it. At Pelosi's office, though, people crumpled theirs and trashed it...

Nancy Pelosi, healthcare, abortion, code pink 2.jpg

Look closely at that still shot. Code Pink counter-demonstrators were standing to the left outside Pelosi's office door, but staging his own personal sit-in inside was Fr. Norman Weslin, who we last saw being arrested at Notre Dame.

And whoops, he did it again, leaving Pelosi's office and laying down in the hall, where he was again arrested...

Fr. Norman Weslin, healthcare, Pelosi, abortion.jpg

According to the Associated Press:

U.S. Capitol Police have arrested a dozen anti-abortion activists outside House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's office after a massive protest against the Democrats' health care bill.

The charges ranged from unlawful conduct to disorderly conduct and unlawful entry in the incident, which happened around 2:15 p.m. EST Thursday....

Was this Randall Terry's doing? Yep.

Here's some wild video of the scene. All 7:30 minutes are worth watching...


Comments:

This is so wrong on so many levels. I do not agree with Pelosi and her liberal policies but that is no excuse for these protestors to do what they did.
Send letters and emails, make phone calls and even stand outside their offices but do not go in unwelcomed (trespassing) and destroy or litter someone else's property.
All this does is make the protestors look bad and give Pelosi and the other democrats another excuse to cricize the protestors and call them unruly or crazy.

Posted by: Marge at November 6, 2009 7:14 AM


Class act. Obviously Jill approves of this idiocy, since she promotes and publicizes it.

In the meantime, the adults got the endorsement of AARP, AMA and American Cancer Society to move health care reform forward.

Thanks again to Randall Terry for making the opposition look completely crazy. Good job.

Posted by: Bystander at November 6, 2009 7:25 AM


God bless you Father Weslin. Charles Rice, Notre Dame Professor Emeritus in his letter to father Jenkins after his arrest at Notre Dame wrote lovingly of him: "You would profit from knowing Fr. Weslin. Notre Dame should give Fr. Weslin the Laetare Medal rather than throw him in jail. Norman Weslin, born to poor Finnish immigrants in upper Michigan, finished high school at age 17 and joined the Army. He converted from the Lutheran to the Catholic faith and married shortly after earning his commission. He became a paratrooper and rose to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel in the 82nd Airborne Division, obtaining his college degree enroute. After a distinguished career, he retired in 1968. As the legalization of abortion intensified, he and his wife, Mary Lou, became active pro-lifers in Colorado. In 1980, Mary Lou was killed by a drunk driver. Norman personally forgave the young driver. Norman Weslin was later ordained as a Catholic priest, worked with Mother Teresa in New York and devoted himself to the rescue of unborn children through nonviolent, prayerful direct action at abortuaries. In 1990 at Christmastime, I was privileged to defend Fr. Weslin and his Lambs of Christ when they were arrested at the abortuary in South Bend."

Posted by: DisturbedMary at November 6, 2009 7:47 AM


Question: Did the Code Pink Characters get Arrested? If not, why not? They were chanting " Health Care 4All," like a Mantra, over and over again. For AP 2Lie, and say it was "Republicans," is an "Untrue Depiction of what was Shown on This Video." Both "for" and "against" the House of Representatives, Health Care Reform Bills, were present. Most of the more Vocal and Loudest Chanters in this Video were the folks from the Gay Community called "Code Pink." Why weren't "They Arrested, too?" It looks to me, "AP does One-Sided Fact Gathering," when it Reports the News. My feelings are mixed regarding Randall Terry. I am Glad the Priest wasn't hurt. I am not sure this helps or hurts our cause. Only God Knows. Time will tell. I was Glad that they Spoke Up at Notre Dame, but to Scare Mrs. Pelosi, even though I don't agree with her, is Unkind and Will just serve to Embolden Pelosi, to Continue to Lie to the American People, and Embolden Her to Pass this Bill by the Weekend. What
will this have done? I wasn't there, but I am glad you posted this Video. No one in the Media, seems smart enough to present the whole picture. I am glad that this Video Proved both Democrats, Republicans, Independants, Pro-Life & Gays were Chanting. It looks like the Code Pink People, were as disruptive, if not more distruptive, than the Right-Side, the Pro-Life Protesters. However: I don't like Randal Terry's Ways. I don't know why, but, the Way He Protests, is Disruptive, not Peaceful Demonstration, like the Good People who Protested Peacefully, outside.

Posted by: Dixie Meyers at November 6, 2009 7:57 AM


Desperate times call for desperate measures, we are not in normal times right now. We are headed to a place we do NOT want to go and they are not listening to us. These people are fed up, many of these people have been in the pro-life movement for years and are getting weary. They are worried all their work is going down the tubes. I really don't see this as bad, I've seen alot worse. Poor Fr. Weslin, he has done so much for the pro-life movement, so sad to see. God bless him!

Posted by: kweb at November 6, 2009 7:59 AM


Marge - I totally agree. That's definitely crossing the line. Randall Terry is such an embarassment, as is this whole "Pelosi's office" incident.

Posted by: army_wife at November 6, 2009 8:00 AM


Bystander, get back to me after you've had a chat with your flag burning friends who plop crucifixes into urine and throw blood on fur coats.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at November 6, 2009 8:09 AM


If such a demonstration took place at a GOP office, Pelosi would be fawning with adoration, describing as the quintessential exhibition of "Americanism" and "Democracy."

Having said that, I do not think that behavior at this level helps...

Posted by: JacksonianLawyer at November 6, 2009 8:18 AM


Posted by: Bystander at November 5, 2009 7:54 AM


"I understand Boo Hoo Beck is in the hospital and needs someone who is adept at paranoid crazy talk to take over his show. Ken should audition."
------------------------------------------------------

BS'er,

Just because quisling apologists and apathetic appeasers attempt to divert attention from the present reality by falsely saying I am paranoid does not mean, the Jew hating mass murderers and serial killers are not out to destroy all of us.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091106/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_shooting

Ft. Hood suspect reportedly shouted `Allahu Akbar'

FORT HOOD, Texas – Soldiers who witnessed the shooting rampage at Fort Hood that left 13 people dead reported that the gunman shouted "Allahu Akbar!" before opening fire, the base commander said Friday.

Lt. Gen. Robert Cone said officials had not yet confirmed that the suspected shooter, Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, made the comment, which is Arabic for "God is great!" before the rampage Thursday, which left 30 people wounded, including the gunman.

At least six months ago, Hasan came to the attention of law enforcement officials because of Internet postings about suicide bombings and other threats, including posts that equated suicide bombers to soldiers who throw themselves on a grenade to save the lives of their comrades.

"He said Muslims had a right to attack" the U.S., said Col. Terry Lee, who worked with Hasan at the Texas post, where the devout Sunni Muslim refused deployment. "He said Muslims shouldn't be fighting Muslims," he added. "He was very clear on that."

This summer, Lee says he overheard Hasan praise the Muslim who shot two soldiers at a military recruiting station in Little Rock, Ark.

"He was happy" about it, Lee said in an interview with Fox News. "He said 'Maybe we should have more of these people. Maybe people should strap [on] bombs and go into town squares.'"

---------------------------------------------------

It seems the conservative christians are not the only ones clinging to their God and their guns.

But the Jew hating mass murderers and serial killers are actually using their guns in the name of their god to kill indicriminately.

yor bro ken

ps: Please note 'Jew hating mass murderers and serial killers' does not apply to all muslims, just the crazies who are at war with civilization.

Posted by: kbhvac at November 6, 2009 8:29 AM

Posted by: kbhvac at November 6, 2009 8:34 AM


Where was idiot Pelosi anyway? Funny how many liberal pro-death individuals are checking out Jill Stanek's website and spewing their hate. Scared of the turnaround that is taking place in America?

Posted by: SmartOne at November 6, 2009 8:49 AM


I second the comments of kweb!!

Posted by: CabbyMom at November 6, 2009 8:50 AM


the adults got the endorsement of AARP, AMA
Posted by: Bystander at November 6, 2009 7:25 AM

Of course they did. The AARP stands to profit from endorsing supplemental policies to their members who had Medicare Advantage plans. The AMA (which represents fewer than 20% of physicians) will profit from selling CPT licenses for compliance with new reporting mandates.

Posted by: Fed Up at November 6, 2009 9:04 AM


Whoopdeedo! So what. They crumpled paper on the floor. They didn't hack furniture apart or beat Pelosi. They crumpled paper. Thats how fed up people are. Maybe if their elected officials would start LISTENING we wouldn't be so irate right now. These patriots see where our country is headed. We are headed to a socialistic state where government controls everything--I mean you can still have an abortion but you can't educate your children how you wish, or medicate your children (or not) how you wish, youcan't pray with your kids, oh and when you get to a certain age you'll get shipped off to the planned grandparenthood clinic so you can be put out of your misery. you think its not coming? Then you're a fool. A fool who doesn't study history. History tends to repeat itself.

I mean Pelosi shouldn't be upset. Its just astroturf.

Posted by: Sydney M at November 6, 2009 9:15 AM


Did you see the code pink people in the video with their rear ends hanging out? Thats more offensive than throwing paper on the floor!

Posted by: Sydney M at November 6, 2009 9:24 AM


Why weren't the Code Pink Chanters, who were dressed up in Hospital Gowns & Surgical Caps, with Pink-Paint on their Butt-Crack, Not Arrested, first? They were More Vocal, And, as Disruptive as, Randall Terry & Fr Weslin.

Does Fr. Weslin have a Bishop, that let's him do this? Is he a Retired Priest, that helps out at a Parish and Do Hospital Calls as a Priest? I usually suspect priests that Go Rogue on the Right or the Left. However, at times, like at Notre Dame, Last May 2009, I think it was Called for. For the Setting needed a Bold Priest to Stand Up, for the Unborn, dismembered & decapitated alive, and called "a right" and "a health care," by the ambivalents to the left. But, I bet deep down, they don't like abortion, either. Engaging in Dialogue is After All, taught by Our Fathers in the Catholic Faith, in the Sixteen Documents, that should serve as a Road Map on these Present Day Issues. Faith & Reason, Who is God, Himself, Demands this of both sides, of any issue. I have only been successful at this 25% of the time in my own life. But, it is an ideal to strive for. On the Night before Jesus Died, he Wash His Apostle's Feet. When He was done, He said, "Now, I give you a New Commandment: Love One Another, As I Have Loved You!" We can at least try people, with God's Help. If Tempted, while trying to do this, say the Holy Name of "Jesus," over and over again, until you succeed! With Him, you will win. Apart from Him, you won't. And, don't try to re-invent the Wheel. Jesus founded only One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church! It's Teachings are Indefectible. It's Members are not. When the Bishops in Union with the Pope Speak, they are Speaking for God. When the Pope speaks via the Ordinary Way or Ex Cathedra, on Matters of Faith & Morals, listen to him. It has to line up with what is already revealed and expounded on, to make clearer and more relevent to each age. God is immutable, never changing. He is All Good. God is Love, God is Just and God is Mercy. Get to know Him!


Yesterday, at Ft Hood, we saw An American Soldier, Go Nuts and kill people he didn't like. I don't agree with Nancy Pelosi or her Evil Ways or Ideals. She should be Excommunicated Formerly and Publicly by the Church, although, she has Excommunicated herself, Ipso Facto, by her Pro-Abortion
Words and Actions.

All I can do is Pray for All of Them, Love Them, and Do Good to Them, even if this Note on Your Blogg, is Tough Love for both the Right & the Left of this Issue.

"Two Wrongs, Don't Equal, A Right!"

I tend towards anger myself, when riled, so these admonitions are for me, as well as them.

Recall Ghandi's Quotation & Take on Jesus' Words, to Ponder On Today, regarding both sides complicity in disrupting Mrs Pelosi's Day. Ghandi said, "An Eye for An Eye, and A Tooth for A Tooth, Only Makes, Both Sides, Blind and Toothless!" Ghandi's thought's on Jesus's words, "You have heard that it was said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth was allowed. But, I say unto you do good to those who persecute you, insult and hurt you. When one wants you to go a mile with him, go with him two. When one strikes you on the cheek, turn the other one to him as well." (Jesus's Words Paraphrased, from Memory).

I think it is High Time, both the Right and the Left open up an Approved Catholic Bible and Catholuc Catechism, and don't just read it, study it to learn and apply it to your daily lives. For ultimately, we are All, going to stand before the same Judge on Judgment Day, for the Verdict of Our Eternal Address! You would not want to see Both Sides for All
Eternity, in Hell together, Complaining and Blaming Each Other for Being There.

Just Some Catholic Thoughts, on the Four Last Things: "Death, Judgment, Heaven or Hell." You get to "Choose Your Eternal Apartment." It can't get any simpler than that, for either side of this issue.

If your Mad at God, for where your at in life, consider Cut God Some Slack. You put you on your own personal paths to destruction. Blaming God, or someone else, is not healthy. Blame yourself, asking God's Forgiveness, and believe He Forgives 7x70. Don't abuse His 4Giveness, Mean it, when you apologize to Him. Don't say, "I'm Sorry, But...!" God doesn't want to hear about your Butts, As Sorry, As they are!
No, God wants True Contrition for your Sins: whether Venial, Mortal, or Sacriledgious. So do all people when you cross them in little ways, or big ways. Even People don't want Hear Your Excuses, When You Apologize.

I think Both Sides, should Write Mrs. Nancy Pelosi, an Apology Letter, for Chanting Stupidly Outside Her Office, and Trashing it with Litter, you should have picked up, not them.

I am a Mom, and I Approve This Message!!!!

Posted by: Dixie Meyers at November 6, 2009 9:27 AM


I agree with Marge. This doesn't accomplish anything, it just makes us look bad.

Be peaceful, my pro-life peeps!

P.S. -- Texas executed its 20th person last night. Is there anyone else here opposed to the death penalty besides me?

Posted by: Phillymiss at November 6, 2009 9:33 AM


I am Against the Culture of Death! That includes: Abortion, the Death Penalty, Euthanasia, Pride, Greed, Lust, Jealousy, Contraceptives, Adultery, Fornication, Homosexuality, Beastiality, Pedaphilia, Ebophilia, Etc, Murder, Extremism to the Left or Right, Cunning, Flattery, Hypocriticalism, Sloth, Anger, Drunkeness, Drug Use, Exhibitionism, Extortion, Rape, Stealing, Blasphemy, Cussing, Swearing, Lewd or Hate Speech, Haughtiness, or any other Sin that Violates God's 10 Commandments, that deals with Don'ts in regards to Our Conduct with God or Our Neighbor and Ourselves.

I Forgot to Say: Read the Sixteen Documents of Vatican Council II, on Ecumenism & Dialogue. It would Do Both Sides, a World of Good, to Read, Ponder, then Live those Sixteen Documents of Vatican II. Subsequent Post Consilliar Documents will help Both Sides as well. Engage in Dialogue, when you witness.

Trashing a woman's office, is beneath the Dignity of a Gentlemen. Remember the Manners, your Mother's Taught you! And, Be Good to Each Other, A's God is Good to Both Sides. God gives you both Air to Breathe, daily, and Water & Food, and the Same Cultured or Wild Flowers & Unborn Babies to Cherish, and Invite into the World we live in. Welcome them, with open arms.

I don't think either side wants disrespect. Start there. People on the Right see how the people on the left are killing themselves by their self destruction that makes them ill, and unhappy. But, for Both Sides to Hold A Public Temper-Tantrum, is Crazy!

I have to go. I have my own problems.I will pray for both of you ins. Good Day. God Bless you all with a ton of more sense than this. Having seen Parents destroy Each Other, who were on Opposite Ends of the Spectrum, I have No Family left. My Siblings are killing each other. I have to move off my property so they can sell it, so they can be happy, making me homeless. It's been their secret dream of revenge for having spoken up about how they were living in mortal sin. However, God is My Inheritence. He will help me weather this Land Grab, with His Help. I bid you Good Day!

Posted by: Dixie Meyers at November 6, 2009 10:19 AM


Phillymiss @ 9:33,
To answer your question, I'm against the death penalty too. (Isn't it pretty much like pre-meditated murder by the State?)

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2009 10:34 AM


I agreed with the other commenter's "peaceful intelligent conversation does not work with these liberal radicals".

The good thing out of all is that no one's physically hurt yet... I believe that a peaceful 'sit-in' type would probably be good enough since Ms Pelosi appeared to be "tone-deaf" and "blinded" by all the crys, and protests over the course of summer. Even the 912 gathering in DC seems to just not affect her at all. May by after this incident, she'll get a wakeup call (knock on wood).

Posted by: Tim at November 6, 2009 10:43 AM


More apple pie, this type of non violent protest is as old as America. Origian tea party the dumping of tea in Boston harbor to the trashing of Pelosi office. I wish I could have been arrested.

Posted by: David Coit at November 6, 2009 11:00 AM


Peaceful protest is constitutional and an excellent way to foster charity and truth. But what happened here cannot be called peaceful protest.

Posted by: Nick at November 6, 2009 11:06 AM


bystander,

The fact Jill reports something does not mean she approves of it. I definitely did not get the impression she in any way does. Can you directly quote Jill expressing her approval? Does reporting the Fort Hood shootings mean that CNN and Fox News approves of them? Hardly.

I see that it was a few protesters who tore up the bill in Pelosi's office, they didn't tear her office apart or destroy her property.

Do I approve of this? No. Am I glad there were no personal injuries and/or damage to property?
Very much so.

Posted by: Mary at November 6, 2009 11:13 AM


There was nothing violent here. There is nothing wrong with peaceful protests -even if it means getting arrested. I seem to remember some greats in American and world history demonstrating non-violence and being arrested.

The pro-life movement is simply the manifestation of those struggling for human rights and the dignity of every individual.

Posted by: RobK at November 6, 2009 11:17 AM


Funny how Reuters reported that the protesters "trashed" Pelosi's office,,, the funniest part of the whole thing is that Pelosi's office is FULL of trash EVERYDAY!!! SHE IS TRASH and SHE OCCUPIES THAT OFFICE!! DOWN WITH NAZI PELOSI AND OBAMA'S DICTATORIAL REGIME!!!!

Posted by: Joe at November 6, 2009 11:26 AM


Every time I read comments from Bystander, I'm reminded of my long-standing desire to write a textbook about Troll Taxonomy. I really need to get that in gear... :)

Posted by: Paladin at November 6, 2009 11:27 AM


Nobody got hurt, right?

Well, then it's just free expression.

Call a Waaaaaaaaaambulance for the leftie whiners.

How about that Fr. Weslin going for the gusto -- sixties style.

Posted by: Pharmer at November 6, 2009 11:31 AM


God Bless Randall Terry, Father Weslin, and all the other protesters who got arrested. These actions are what is going to end child-killing (abortion). For this is what gets on the news. Martin Luther King did civil disobedience, got arrested? Did he not? And look Civil rights was brought up on a national level and won!
We need more protests like this, remember we are doing this for the UNBORN BABIES THAT ARE BEING SLAUGHTERED!!!
Was it not the death of thousands and thousands of martyr's that brought many to the Christian faith? Because I know everytime I watch videos like these, I wish I was there.
To those who find it "unclassy" or "disgrace", get some courage and common sense for it is stories like these getting national attention.

Posted by: James at November 6, 2009 11:58 AM


Numbers 35:30-31: "Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses:but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die". "Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death." Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood,by man shall his blood be shed". Am I against the Death Penalty? No.

Posted by: Pamela at November 6, 2009 12:14 PM


I don't know. I used to be against this sort of thing. But they are NOT listening to us - even though the science of unborn life has grown, even though the majority of Americans are now prolife, even though the majority of American WOMEN, including many former prochoicers like myself, are now prolife. What will it take to get the minority who happen to have a lot of political power to listen to the majority whose views are being suppressed and trampled on?

I am angry and feel betrayed by the increasing strong-arm tactics of supposed "feminists" who claim to speak for all women, but in fact speak for only a few, and frankly are some of the most sexist and bigoted women on this earth, Pelosi especially. She is an insult to American women.

Posted by: theo at November 6, 2009 12:29 PM


No, the death penalty (capital punishment) for murder is a recognition and protection of the sanctity of human life. It protects human life. It was the only measure specifically given by God in the Re-creation after the Flood (see Genesis 9) as a means to restrain the violence which caused the Flood. God blessed Noah as he had blessed Adam, urging him to go out, conquer, and subdue the earth, to be fruitful and multiply. He gave him the animals to eat too. Only Noah and his descendants were not to kill each other. "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He created him."

The New Testament makes clear that enforcement of justice, whether to punish aggressors within the nation (criminals) or aggressors outside (terrorists) is the responsibility of the civil government. It is, in fact, their main responsibility. (They have almost no business in health care.) The apostle Paul in Romans 13 says that the civil government has the power of the sword. A sword is not used to butter bread. The government, said Ronald Reagan (I think), is power, raw power. Capital punishment for murder, when performed by the proper authorities, the civil government, is thoroughly just, Biblical, and Christian.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2009 12:53 PM


Jon,

I'm no Biblical scholar, but as a Christian, I have to disagree with you, even when you use the Bible in defense of your position.
The Bible was written 2000 years ago and we certainly don't use swords in our modern society as they did back in New Testament days. Those words by Paul may have been metaphorical, I can't say. I can say that we are a bit more civilized compared to those citizens of early Rome. We have formal courts and jails to protect society against criminals.

Is it our duty or our choice to take a man's life before he has a chance to repent of his sin? It is our choice, IMHO, and with that choice we are playing God.


Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2009 1:33 PM


Janet, how many sex offenders go on to either offend again or do even worse, like murder their victims? And with DNA testing today as it is, it's even more of a sure bet you're getting the proper offender. Some people are far beyond repentance. Would 11 women be alive now if Anthony Sowell had been put to death for his past crimes?

Posted by: xalisae at November 6, 2009 1:42 PM


And, I see no conflict in my stance as a pro-lifer and support of the death penalty. Preventing those who are inclined from killing innocent people by killing them IS pro-life. Some people just are unfit to live in society. That is the difference between my stance and that of a pro-abortionist. I at least want to see if a person is actually unfit or not before killing them rather than assume that they wouldn't be because of bad circumstances and kill them in their mother's wombs from the start.

Posted by: xalisae at November 6, 2009 1:47 PM


Janet, I know that we may never EVER play God. But the civil government is NOT playing God. It is representing Him, as His minister. Read Romans 13, and remember that the likely emperor at the time was Emperor Nero (not a nice guy to Christians). As a Protestant, I dare say that the civil government more truly represents God than the pope represents Christ. But that's another issue, for I know that you're a Roman Catholic. My point is that the civil government is not playing God when it does the job that God gave it to do.

The apostle Paul in Romans 13 was not speaking of a metaphorical use of the sword. The Romans actually did use swords. They used them to kill. The apostle Paul speaks of being afraid of the powers that be. He says that they are meant to scare evil-doers.

The civil government does not weigh the mind. Justice is blind, and only God can weigh the thoughts and intents of the heart. The civil government can only reward DEEDS, not words or thoughts (with some exceptions such as slander). The kind of murder that the civil government punishes (as opposed to Jesus' application in the Sermon on the Mount) is indeed in deed.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2009 1:50 PM


One principle of justice is "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth." (That's from the Bible too.) The evil-doer is to be punished as a public example to evil-intenders.

The Church can show the mercy of Christ to a murderer even while he is condemned to death row. He dies, but if he has repented, just like the thief crucified with Jesus, he goes to heaven, a much better place.

The Lord Jesus urged His followers not to fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. He said to fear God who can condemn both body and soul to hell forever. Where do our priorities lie? I know it's hard to live out these convictions, but "seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness."

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2009 1:56 PM


Thank you, Janet.

To Pamela and Jon: I am not Catholic, but I am Christian, and as I understood it, Christ's atoning death means that we are no longer under the old covenant. If we went by the Old Testament's laws, it would be acceptable to stone adulterers, kids that disrepect their parents, aand gay people.

As for DNA evidence -- it is extremely accurate, but not 100 percent. What do we say to the families of those who were wrongly executed? "Sorry" just won't do.

Posted by: Phillymiss at November 6, 2009 2:01 PM


Phillymiss, the civil laws of Israel are no longer applicable because Israel as a theocracy no longer exists. The Noahic covenant (Genesis 9) still applies. Besides, you still have not explained Romans 13, which is in the New Testament.

Regarding the use of swords at the time that the New Testament was written, recall the following: Jesus said to Thomas, "Reach here your hand, and put it into My side..." (John 20:27)

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2009 2:07 PM


And, Phillymiss, even if the civil laws of Israel are obsolete, the principles of justice contained in them are not. America was founded on them. See http://noapologies.ca/?p=4805

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2009 2:11 PM


People are desperate.This might save Pelosi and the rest in the future from a really angry lynching mob!They are literally thrashing the will of the majority.To whom these people work for?

What would it take for them to listen?

Posted by: lome at November 6, 2009 2:15 PM


I think the majority is behind health care reform.
If it doesn't pass, I might join an angry mob in D.C.

Posted by: Hal at November 6, 2009 2:19 PM


"Janet, how many sex offenders go on to either offend again or do even worse, like murder their victims? And with DNA testing today as it is, it's even more of a sure bet you're getting the proper offender. Some people are far beyond repentance. Would 11 women be alive now if Anthony Sowell had been put to death for his past crimes?"

Posted by: xalisae at November 6, 2009 1:42 PM

I believe these serious criminals should receive a sentence of life imprisonment. I don't believe they should be paroled, but unfortunately they are and this I see as a HUGE problem with our judicial system. It is not perfect and I REALLY wish it would change. Unfortunately, I don't have the power to do that myself.

* * * *

"As a Protestant, I dare say that the civil government more truly represents God than the pope represents Christ. But that's another issue, for I know that you're a Roman Catholic. My point is that the civil government is not playing God when it does the job that God gave it to do."

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2009 1:50 PM

Forgive me for being rather blunt, but is this, regarding civil government, is news to me. It's quite a generalization. Is this in regards to ALL matters or only capital punishment?

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2009 2:20 PM


Jon,

I don't think you read my statement about the sword correctly . I didn't say they were never used, I said: "The Bible was written 2000 years ago and we certainly don't use swords in our modern society as they did back in New Testament days."

I would have to go back and read the Romans 13 to comment on that further.

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2009 2:28 PM


Jon,

Sorry, I mixed up the wording of this sentence.
I should have said:

"Forgive me for being rather blunt, but this, regarding civil government, is news to me. "

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2009 2:31 PM


I think the majority is behind health care reform.
If it doesn't pass, I might join an angry mob in D.C.

Posted by: Hal at November 6, 2009 2:19 PM

Go for it! Be sure to wave to us conservatives if you see a news camera. :)

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2009 2:34 PM


Phillymiss asked, "What do we say to the families of those who were wrongly executed?"

We, who are NOT the civil government, sympathize with them. The civil government apologizes, and if it can, demonstrates (e.g. in the lawsuit) that it carefully followed established procedure.

Are you a statist? Do you trust in the civil government for all your needs? It will fail you and eventually oppress you. I think that someone said that democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others. The American penny (I think) says, "In God we trust." Man will fail you, but God is impartial. That's a horrible thought for sinners except that there is also the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Pacifism is a dangerous philosophy. It may end up neutering America just as it has neutered Europe and opened it to the Mohammedan barbarians.

The government is power, and it is the job of the government to restrain evil. Evil doesn't follow the rules; it doesn't play nicely. At one point in the world's history, the Flood was necessary, after which God shortened man's lifespan (sorry, that makes two measures to prevent violence, doesn't it).

Now for my question: "What do we say to the families of those who were cruelly murdered? Do we imply that the victim's lives were worthless by letting the criminals continue to live? Or do we give the perpetrators (murderers) justice by ending their own lives?"

Remember also that God's forgiveness is not free: Jesus Christ died in my place. The Atonement was substitionary. The price was paid. The wages of sin is death.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2009 2:35 PM


Anyone else notice that, although many pro-lifers were arrested early in the video and Fr. Weslin was at the end, that Randy Terry is still walking around free at the end of the clip? Why are people willing to get arrested for someone who will not get arrested himself?

Posted by: Corrina at November 6, 2009 2:36 PM


Jon @ 2:35

"The government is power, and it is the job of the government to restrain evil. "

Jon,

Just as it was the job of the Nazi's to restrain evil? They didn't do a good job of it. How can you place all of your trust in government which is comprised of flawed humans? Let's be practical.

Sorry for so many short comments in a row.

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2009 2:44 PM


I used to be for the death penalty. I wouldn't say I am AGAINST it, but I just don't know what I think. I see the merits of both sides of that issue. I think both sides make very intelligent arguments for or against the death penalty.

But I hate when pro-choicers try to equate that issue to abortion. The difference is one is a GROWN person who has had justice in that he/she got to go to court to defend themselves and having been found GUILTY must now forfeit their lives as payment for the life or lives they have taken.

The second act is an act whereby a CHILD is given no chance at defense but is torn apart and murdered though the child has done nothing wrong and is INNOCENT.

Posted by: Sydney M. at November 6, 2009 2:47 PM


Jon: I am at work and I don't have time to go into in-depth theological arguments, but there was a time when I was very pro-choice. The thing that got me thinking about the issue is when one of the "enemies" (a prolifer) asked me if I would perform abortions if I were a doctor. My answer was no, of course, then she asked me "why not?"

Now if you were the governor of Texas or Florida would you sign a death warrant? If you were a medical professional would you inject those lethal drugs?

I wouldn't say I was a pacifist, because I believe that we all have the right to defend ourselves. Also, I think there are such things as "just wars." If the Nazis had won WWII, as a person of color, I wouldn't be writing this.

Put murderers, etc., in a "supermax" type of prison where they are allowed no visitors and are in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day. This is where the unabomber and others of his ilk are.

Posted by: Phillymiss at November 6, 2009 2:55 PM


Good point, Sydney M.
Pro-choicers use the issue of capital punishment as a reason to discredit pro-lifers in general. Because they don't have a good argument to defend abortion, of course.

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2009 2:57 PM


Janet said, "The Bible was written 2000 years ago and we certainly don't use swords in our modern society as they did back in New Testament days."

The principle remains the same even if the technology changes. Now we use lethal injection instead of the sword.

Janet said, "Forgive me for being rather blunt, but this, regarding civil government, is news to me. It's quite a generalization. Is this in regards to ALL matters or only capital punishment?"

Start in Romans 12 to get some context. "Never pay back evil for evil to anyone... Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,' says the Lord." (12:17,19)

Then comes a means of divine vengeance: the ruler is "an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil" (13:4).

The ruler is God's representative: "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves" (13:1-2).

Capital punishment is not directly referred to, except as the "power of the sword": "For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behaviour, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger..." (13:3-4).

VENGEANCE means justice, an eye for an eye and a life for a life. The punishment should match the crime. It's true that the apostle Paul hasn't presented a legal code for the civil government to follow (he wasn't writing to them, after all). Nevertheless, the Creation principle of the sanctity of human life because of its resemblance to the divine nature still holds as much today in the twenty-first century after the first Christmas as it did at the Creation, the beginning of history. This principle means, God said in Genesis 9:6, capital punishment for murder.

Janet asked, "How can you place all of your trust in government which is comprised of flawed humans? Let's be practical."

We shouldn't place all of our trust in the civil government. No! Remember Mr. Reagan's famous saying, something to the effect that a government that is powerful enough to give you all you want is powerful enough to take it all away too. I believe in small government. Health care, for example, is not the job of the government, except in a very limited regulatory sense. When God's prophet Gad offered King David a choice of three different punishments, David answered in faith, "I am in great distress. Let us now fall into the hand of the LORD for His mercies are great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man" (1 Sam. 24:14).

Janet, are you saying that Emperor Nero was a better ruler for the Christians than Adolf Hitler was? Remember that Nero (I think he was the one) used to tar Christians and set them on fire to light up his garden parties. He certainly persecuted the Christians greatly. Yet Paul's letter to the church in Rome may have been written while Emperor Nero was in power.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2009 3:17 PM


Oh, Janet, I also think that a common saying is this: any government is better than no government. Evil breeds fastest in a situation of anarchy. What would you recommend in the place of the civil government?

Please also note that life imprisonment, even if it were practical (doesn't the United States already have a huge prison population?), isn't compassionate. And it shouldn't be. Crime must be deterred. Perhaps some of the United States have a very good system presently: they use capital punishment but only very rarely. I don't know. I just know that the sanctity of human life means that a murderer forfeits his own life.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2009 3:29 PM


Phillymiss asked me, "Now if you were the governor of Texas or Florida would you sign a death warrant? If you were a medical professional would you inject those lethal drugs?"

Yes, I certainly would. I would be doing my job, fulfilling the responsibility God gave me to punish evil-doers.

As Sydney and Janet have already implied, abortion and capital punishment are apples and oranges (or even worse, apples and dogs). In performing an abortion, I become a murderer and deny the sanctity of human life. In performing capital punishment, I reward a murderer for his murder and affirm the sanctity of human life.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2009 3:39 PM


The actions of the protestors vis-a-vis Mrs. Pelosi's offices were wrong on so many levels. First, you do not change BAD law by breaking existing laws (trespassing, wanton destruction of the property of others). But making the people who are so very much against this health care debacle look like lunatic goons is hardly the way to win friends and influence people. Yes, abortion is an abomination before God, but two wrongs do not ever make a right and the end does not justify the means. That's the Left's tactic and we don't sink to their level ever!

Posted by: Gayle Miller at November 6, 2009 4:02 PM


Jon,

At the risk of belaboring the point, one other thing. I've thought about this quite a bit. I would make major reforms in the prison system in the US. Where you and I differ is that I don't think we need to show much compassion for a criminal once he is sentenced to prison. I wouldn't execute him though. As a deterrent, make the prisons less like country clubs and more like prison. (I imagine the cold, dingy prisons of Europe in the 1600's.) No television, ipods, telephones,weight rooms, softball games, or other luxuries. For many repeat criminals, prison is a welcome sight compared to the lives they live on the street. Let them learn how to live outside the prison system instead of the State paying their room and board, providing meals, a bed to sleep on, etc. They are criminals after all.

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2009 4:03 PM


All my reasonable comments now being made, I do think that Mrs. Pelosi's feet should be held to the fire by her own bishop and priest and she should be reminded of her obligations to her God. Isn't being denied the sacraments sufficient warning to her? Does she need to be loudly and very expeditiously excommunicated in order to "get it"? She still thinks that the Church's laws are "suggestions", doesn't she? What a boob she is - you almost have to pity her ignorance?

Posted by: Gayle Miller at November 6, 2009 4:08 PM


I think that I agree with you, Janet. I was trying to say that if imprisonment isn't compassionate (and shouldn't be), then what do you have against capital punishment? Phillymiss had wondered what to say to the families of someone wrongly executed. I'm not sure that losing a decade or two of a loved one's life (because of his being in prison) is much better. If the convict is a spouse, there's probably a strong temptation to abandon him. Also, a long imprisonment may not be better for the Christian wrongly executed (he was innocent); however, if executed, his spirit goes immediately to heaven, a much better place. (Read Anglican C.S. Lewis's SCREWTAPE LETTERS for this kind of perspective.)

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2009 4:26 PM


Janet: That's what I mean by putting these serious offenders in a kind of prison where they just get the basic amenities. No "Club Fed" type accommodations!

Jon: I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this issue. Unless it's in self-defense, I don't want to take part in the destruction of any human life.

Posted by: Phillymiss at November 6, 2009 4:39 PM


Janet: That's what I mean by putting these serious offenders in a kind of prison where they just get the basic amenities. No "Club Fed" type accommodations!

Jon: I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this issue. Unless it's in self-defense, I don't want to take ANY part in the destruction of any human life.

Posted by: Phillymiss at November 6, 2009 4:40 PM


Hi Janet 4:03PM

While I support this in theory, in real life a predator is not going to concern him/herself with punishment. That is not how these people think.
They are predators, and given the opportunity they will kill again and again. Oh, they are masters of manipulation, they've changed, they've reformed, etc. Horse puckey. They're trying to stay out of the gas chamber.
The most disgusting thing I ever watched was Ted Bundy blubbering to Dr.Dobson how pornography drove him to kill. The only thing more disgusting was Dobson's actually believing it.
Bundy knew exactly what Dobson wanted to hear, and played Dobson like a fiddle.
Do I support capital punishment? Absolutely.

Posted by: Mary at November 6, 2009 4:54 PM



For the record, I was overjoyed when Ted Bundy was fried.
One of his victims was a nurse my sister knew. I also worked at the same hospital as her and knew the doctor who was her fiance.

Posted by: Mary at November 6, 2009 4:57 PM


Mary:

While I support this in theory, in real life a predator is not going to concern him/herself with punishment.

This is what the "personally opposed" crowd says. They are pro-life in theory, but when a woman is raped, or is a victim of incest, or is poor . . . I think you know the argument.

Posted by: Phillymiss at November 6, 2009 5:02 PM


"extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice."
B.G.

Posted by: jeanne at November 6, 2009 5:44 PM


As a child of the 60's, growing up during the Vietnam war era and racial protests across the land, a torn up paper in Pelosi's office by comparison does not amount to a pimple on an elephant's ass.

Yes, many pro-lifer's cringe at the sight of this kind of action. We are law abiding and peace loving people. Given our druthers we would rather be at home with our loved ones any day of the week. But here is the rub: millions of innocent humans are being killed and we cannot stand by and do nothing. We pray, we write letters, we vote, we protest...and on occasion there are things some of us do that make us squirm a bit. But it is a well known axiom that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and maybe that is what is happening here.

Posted by: Jerry at November 6, 2009 5:46 PM


Hi Phillymiss,

Sorry, but I don't see the connection. Society has to be protected from predators. These people have no conscience or remorse. They're no better than mad dogs. Ted Bundy and Wayne Gacy were no better than mad dogs. You would have every right to shoot to kill either one of them or any other predator to protect yourself.
If life imprisonment is such punishment, why do these predators fight to stay alive in prison?
I'll tell you why. They are remorseless, consciousless machines determined to stay alive.

Oh, one such mad dog was locked up in our prison system. A bunch of do-gooders got him out. Guess what? He raped, tortured, and murdered a woman. He'd been fantasizing about doing such a thing since he'd been put in prison. I'm hoping some convict finishes him off like one did Jeffrey Dahmer.

Posted by: Mary at November 6, 2009 6:14 PM


Jerry 5:46PM

An excellent point. I well remember the 60's. Campuses closed down, buildings occupied, ROTC buildings burned, students denied access to classrooms, etc. Oh, and weren't President Obama's friends the Ayers or at least Mrs. Ayers, AKA Bernadine Dohrn, also involved in the 1969 "Days of Rage" in Chicago which resulted in hundreds of millions of dollars worth of damage?

Listen to the left whine now over a bunch of torn up paper!

Posted by: Mary at November 6, 2009 6:21 PM


I couldn't agree more, Mary. Well said.

Posted by: xalisae at November 6, 2009 7:55 PM


Mary, did you know Jeffrey Dahmer came to Christ and was baptized before he was murdered?

The minister who baptized him writes about his realization that he should be put to death for his crimes.

www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2006/11/Saving-Jeffrey-Dahmer.aspx?p=1

Posted by: klynn73 at November 6, 2009 8:12 PM


Thanks, Mary. There is an incomprehensible double standard in the way things are reported. At the annual Group of 19(?)conferences world leaders are routinely met with thousands of rowdies that emerge on cue. Cars get burned, shops get ransacked, hundreds of armour clad policemen are shoulder to shoulder, tear gas and rubber bullets often employed to break up unlawful demonstrations, and yet the liberals are silent. But whoa, what's this? Some pro-lifer tore a piece of paper up? My gawd, let's lock down the Capital!

Posted by: Jerry at November 6, 2009 8:13 PM


klynn73, 8:12pm,

Thank you so much for posting that! Right after reading Mary's comment, I was thinking the same thing. (never read the story, but heard of it...thanks for the link as well!)

As for this demonstration, I don't know what to think. On one hand, it looks pretty silly, but on the other, it is soooooooo bad-a$$ (especially the priest!) I appreciate the passion, and can't help but thinking that these people went to this extent because of their love and compassion for the unborn. WOW! I guess if you piled the bodies of every aborted baby into one area and saw what the millions and millions of dead babies actually looked like, this protest would definitely pale in comparison, and I suppose many, many more would be filling those halls. However, I wouldn't want to do what the protestors did. It's just "not me".

As for the death penalty, I'm the same way. Undecided, but leaning much more towards supporting it. The way I feel, is that in society, there are levels of punishment based on the crime. The more severe the crime the more severe the punishment. It's not that certain heinous crimes deserve death, but there must be a punishment that deters people from wanting to commit such heinous acts. Death is the ultimate and most severe punishment. I truly believe that certain crimes are deserving of that penalty. And, I also remember watching "lock up" on MSNBC, and many inmates do try (and succeed) at killing the guards. I couldn't imagine workin in such a hostile environment day after day after day.

Posted by: Marie at November 6, 2009 8:35 PM


"I guess if you piled the bodies of every aborted baby into one area and saw what the millions and millions of dead babies actually looked like, this protest would definitely pale in comparison, and I suppose many, many more would be filling those halls."

Posted by: Marie at November 6, 2009 8:35 PM

The 40 Days for Life during the last Lenten season, I was at one of the vigils and had picked up to carry a sign stating the MN Dept of Health statistic that 829 children had been murdered in 2006 at Regions Hospital's abortion clinic. It suddenly struck me that 829 children who'd be turning 3 this year would fill to overflowing the 4 lanes of the street in front of us, stretching from downtown all the way up the hill. It was a very sobering realization. Someday we will see them, though my mind can not comprehend what 1 billion children look like. God have mercy on every nation contributing to that unimaginable number.

Posted by: klynn73 at November 6, 2009 9:06 PM


klynn73,

You are so right. When you put a face to the number it hits you like a ton of bricks. It's not "just a number" anymore. God help us.

Posted by: Marie at November 6, 2009 10:18 PM


Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2009 3:17 PM


"Capital punishment is not directly referred to, except as the "power of the sword": "For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behaviour, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger..." (13:3-4)."

--------------------------------------------------

Jon,

What kind of punishment do you think Jesus was referring to when HE recomended tying a millstone around an offenders neck and throwing the offender into the deep blue sea?

That scenario is not likely to end with the offender remaining in the land of the living.

But you know Jesus, HE was always making these wild statements. I am sure Jesus was just speaking figureatively or was speaking parbolicly.

You know like when HE said there would not be one stone left on another of Herod's temple.

Actually histroy tells us that Jesus understated that scenario just a little bit.

The destruction of Herod's temple was so complete that the sight became a plowed field.

Did you ever meet a carpenter that was a wimp?

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at November 6, 2009 10:19 PM


Hi klynn73@8:12PM

Very interesting. Thank you for the info. Personally I am highly skeptical of these prison conversions, especially when prisoners are trying to stay off death row, but I will give the benefit of the doubt to Dahmer who was not on death row. Do I believe he remained a potential predator? Absolutely.
I suspect he knew he was a marked man and maybe he just felt it was what he deserved. Who can ever know??

Posted by: Mary at November 6, 2009 10:33 PM


X, 7:55PM

Thank you :)

Posted by: Mary at November 6, 2009 10:35 PM


I guess maybe it comes down to this--is it sometimes justifiable to take a life, such as, in self defense? I would never go out and kill someone, but you better believe if someone is breaking into my house to harm my child I am gonna grab my gun and blow his brains out and not think twice because I am protecting the life of my child. I wouldn't consider myself to not be pro-life anymore because I protected my family and had to kill someone who intended to do us harm.

Isn't capital punishment the same? If you premeditate and kill you show you are a threat to society. Doesn't society have the right to protect itself from killers by removing them from the planet? Killers by their own actions place themselves in the electric chair so to speak.

Posted by: Sydney M. at November 6, 2009 10:57 PM


Sydney,

Excellent point! I never thought of it that way.
:)

Posted by: Marie at November 6, 2009 11:08 PM


Phillymiss...I'm not Catholic, either. I'm Pentecostal. :)

Posted by: Pamela at November 7, 2009 1:03 AM


Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2009 12:53 PM

I think I'm beginning to fully understand the key difference between your type and the homocidal Muslims who murder innocents--you are spineless and passive-aggressive, while they fully display the courage of their convictions. You both cite religious doctrine to justify your violent, vengeful fantasies of punishing sinners as per God's wishes, except they go out and actually follow through on their ancient, backwards mythology while people like you sit here and try to explain why the death penalty has the Jesus seal of approval and the state not only has the right but the responsibility to carry it out, too stupid to realize that your self-righteous bloodthirst is a double-edged sword and the government, being the sole arbiter of what does and does not qualify for capital punishment, could just as well decide tomorrow that spouting off 2000-year-old religious dogma is as much a reasonable cause for execution as first-degree homocide is.

Posted by: orbital at November 7, 2009 3:55 AM


"Isn't capital punishment the same? If you premeditate and kill you show you are a threat to society. Doesn't society have the right to protect itself from killers by removing them from the planet?"

No, it's not the same. In the situation you described, you exercised immediate self-defense against a violent aggressor and in the absence of doing so, you or your family would be in immediate danger. Capital punishment only follows after a convict has been detained and is already in the criminal justice system. Society's interests in defending itself are already satisfied; capital punishment is a strictly punitive measure. There is a good reason (actually, lots of good reasons) why civilized nations are abandoning capital punishment as a barbaric, unnecessary practice.

Posted by: orbital at November 7, 2009 4:06 AM


Orbital,

So what if there is a mass-murderer (handed down the "death penalty sentence"), in the prison system, that every chance he/she gets attempts to harm/kill the guards when moving him/her from place to place. And, if they did attempt to kill or actually kill the guard, do you not deem them a persistent threat to society? Aren't the prison guards "society"?

You also said,
"I think I'm beginning to fully understand the key difference between your type and the homocidal Muslims who murder innocents--you are spineless and passive-aggressive, while they fully display the courage of their convictions."

Why do you think it's courageous? That sounds like a word someone uses as a seal of approval, no?

Posted by: Marie at November 7, 2009 7:31 AM


orbital,

I don't base my support for capital punishment on religious conviction any more than I do the right to self defense.

Its not like people are convicted one day and executed the next. Here in the US its a long drawn out process, unlike so many other countries. Also there is the
DNA factor which is a great help in preventing and/or reversing wrongful convictions.

Killers can also kill in prison as well as out of it and do. I see inmates and prison personnel in danger as well as innocent people who get in the path of homicidal convicts who have escaped.

To me capital punishment is society's self defense.

My favorite account is what happened to a group of pirates who boarded a Chinese merchant ship and executed the entire crew.
The Chinese caught them, tried them, lined them up at the edge of a ditch and had soldiers execute them with a bullet in the back of the head, in the exact way the crew members had been executed.
Guess what, pirates don't go near Chinese ships anymore. Sounds like the Chinese gov't did a great job of protecting its merchant crews and preventing these dirtbags from killing again.
As I said, self defense.

Posted by: Mary at November 7, 2009 7:48 AM


I see nothing wrong with this from either a political or moral perspective. The means were proportionate to the desired ends.
When Our Lord used a whip to drive the money changers from the Temple and uprooted their 'offices' He showed that there comes a point when the expression of outrage, even that which involves some destruction of property, is not only justified but also righteous.

Posted by: Bosco at November 7, 2009 8:50 AM


What is wrong and embarrassing is that this country sanctions the murder of the weakest among us, a Constitutional violation of the first and most basic right, the right to life. Honestly, we all should have the courage these people have. If enough Americans would rise up, we could put an end to this atrocity, this American holocaust. Abortion ends a human life in a grotesque, horrific way. We should be helping women give life to their children.

Posted by: Jaclyn Gregory at November 7, 2009 6:45 PM


Thank God for these peaceful protesters sending a loud message to Congress. I admire their guts!
It was a peaceful but pointed demonstration - ripping up pages of the horrendous healthcare bill, which Nancy will impose on us if she has her way.
I hope she got the message! 'We the people' are starting to push back.
The crude and rude, code pinkers should have been arrested for indecent exposure. A strange double standard isn't it?

Posted by: jill at November 7, 2009 7:54 PM


Stupid, Orbital? Speaking for myself, my I.Q. is 148, Thank you very much. For the record, If you want to sound as if YOU have any intelligence, the word to use would be 'unintelligent', not 'stupid'. Verbally attacking total strangers on a blog....talk about "spineless and passive aggressive", Orbital!

Posted by: Pamela at November 7, 2009 10:02 PM


Strangely it has become popular for many Catholic prolifers to oppose the death penalty. Many Catholics think it is the only view consonant with their Catholic faith and that not to oppose the Death Penalty is a sign of poor understanding or poor catechesis, etc. There is an interesting essay by the late Cardinal Avery Dulles which effectually proves that Catholic support of the Death Penalty (when necessary) is not only legitamate but of longer and sounder standing than the more modern view.

Here is a link to it. www.firstthings.com/article/2008/08/catholicism-amp-capital-punishment-21

It seems many think that in order to be truly prolife is to oppose death in all its inflicted forms. While well intentioned it is overly simplistic and fails to take into account the fallen state of this world. Not only that but often it fails to protect the innocent as even other inmates and guards in prisons are possibly placed in danger (solitary confinement- docters and guards must occasionally enter) and therefore can be placed in a dangerous situation. Objectively the right of the innocent is more pressing than that of those who are guilty of serious crimes. It also fails to note that God's mercy is exhibited in permitting His Son suffer for our sins. God is Just and as such every offense must be paid for. Whether it be by the offender or Christ or the saints (in a lower order/ level) it must be satisfied. There is no forgiveness without recompence. His mercy is that We are allowed throw ourselves upon the mercy of Christ. That is why only a sinless man/ sacrifice could redeem us. Only such did not "owe" Him anything. If we do not avail ourselves of it then we pay. Either way God's Justice is satisfied.

Yes earthly human life is sacred (but the sacredness is received and that is why murder is a sin that cries out to God) but Divine Justice is intrinsically sacred. Earthly life is not the highest good- God is. To know and love God is also so the beautific vision is pretty high on the list. Sometimes it takes someone to fully realize they will soon die in payment for their crime (perhaps such as Annias and Saphira) to bring them to repentance. God's Justice sometimes commands it. Mercy is good and in a sense higher but it must be tempered with Justice. As soon as the two are divorced it is not Mercy and neither is it Justice. It is far from either.

It also seems many prolifers believe that opposition to the death penalty will create common ground with liberals or think to "out mercy" the liberal.

Due to the lack of Christain influence in our society there is much more violent crime. Even young girls are committing violent acts that were virtually unheard of just 10yrs ago. Former studies in psychology have indicated that this was very uncommon. We can no longer claim that we are a more civilized society and can do without the "barbarisms" of the past. Our society is already collasping- all the behavioral aberrations are just signs of it. Modern man has forgotton that Justice is a virtue and must be satisfied.


Those who will say that well Jesus forgive all on the cross... Yes but only those who avail themselves of His mercy are forgiven. Those who do not must satisfy the Justice of God alone.

Another problem is that those who believe that it was commanded by God in the Old Testament but is no longer permitted fail to reflect upon God's unchanging nature. God can never command one to sin. Capital punishment is not sinful. Its necessity is perhaps debatable but not whether it as a principle is wrong or right. Those who just somehow feel it in their hearts should reconsider that study and thoughtful reflection are necessary for good theology and history. However, my main concern is not with the individual application as much as with the principle. The application can depend on the crime, the evidence, sobriety, mental competence, etc. That is where the rubber meets the road. In all cases regarding Capital punishment the primary responsibility is to protect the innocent- even if lethal force is required to prevent a reoccurrence of such crime. Thank you for you time and God bless all.

Posted by: Robert at November 8, 2009 1:51 AM


Great post, Robert!

Posted by: Marie at November 8, 2009 10:15 AM


If I remember rightly, the opposite of justice is not mercy. The opposite of justice is charity. Mercy is the synthesis of justice and charity. Am I correct or am I mistaken?

Posted by: Bosco at November 8, 2009 12:16 PM


Thanks for posting Jill. I saw 3 maybe four nonviolent pro-life cohorts there. Alleluia some seemed to be there for the purpose of photo-journalism which is wonderful for those of us who couldn't attend. My famous humble Fr.(at ND88) was there again I could see that one of the officers refused to haul him off like a criminal. Amen. I think the pro-lifers got a little help from a friend in order to make it that far into the building. I saw no media coverage on this I wonder why. Why did the demonstrators on the Pelosi side not get arrested as well: unlawful pro-death people who obviously did a little more than tear up a piece of paper?

I wish I could say it mystifies me but it doesn't, but what a great representation some bare asses representing an Ass.

Posted by: s.fane at November 8, 2009 2:22 PM