Weekend question 12-12/13-09

I received the following email this week:

Vanessa Brown email.png

How would you respond?


Comments:

There are so many answers to this question Like
Gods plans includes instructions:

Thou shall not kill, Being one of them

But maybe a better answer for this person is

Why would God create a baby for you to destroy?

Is that really God's plan.

Posted by: Greg at December 12, 2009 7:45 AM


First of all, isn't she trying to control your decision and doesn't she think she knows the way. Secondly, where is there evidence in the Bible that God's will is to kill an innocent unborn child? If she thinks that it's God's plan to kill the unborn, then she shouldn't have a problem with a born child being killed. If a family realizes they are not ready to care for a born child, then using her logic, it would be God's will to kill it.

Posted by: Monte at December 12, 2009 7:58 AM


It is not God's will that a child be killed. A child is always meant to be born unless the mother makes the choice to end her pregnancy. When she does that it is not God's will but her will that has made the choice that the child not be born. She has interfered with God's plan. And yes, she may relfect later on in life with the deepest regret she will ever know and like no other to remind her of the choice she made.

Posted by: Mary Rose at December 12, 2009 8:00 AM


Let's use our big girl words, Vanessa.

Who DO I think you are?

Dear Jill,
You are an amazing woman who heard a call on her life. You held a tiny baby boy so he wouldn't die alone. You have been an inspiration to me in so many ways since I first read your story on Lifenews.com. I prayed for you and knew that you would face tremendous opposition to telling the world what you witnessed at Christ Hospital. You have gone before us and allowed our voices to be heard. I am sure many of us do not know of the threats on your life, the extent of the scrutiny and the disdain you endure. And still you fight on. I am privileged to know you and be part of your team here at Prolife Pulse.
THANK YOU for standing up and speaking out when so many choose to look the other way.

Fighting with you!!!
Carla

Posted by: carla Author Profile Page at December 12, 2009 8:17 AM


I think the point here is actually a valid one, despite the poor way in which this query is phrased. Assuming that one does believe in the Christian God, how are we to know that our interpretation of His plan is accurate? Further, how are we to which actions actually violate this plan, assuming that He has one? And then how are we to judge the severity of the violation--assuming, that He has a definitive plan and, secondly, that we have indeed violated it through either arbitrary choice or a misinterpretation of His word? It's entirely possible that all of us--even fervent believers--almost continually violate the intentions of the One that they most revere without even realizing that they have done so (ie., by choosing, perhaps to attend a university other than the one that He has selected, ect.).

Posted by: Enigma at December 12, 2009 8:19 AM


"Sometimes children should not be born to the parents who spawned them..."

(From Encarta Dictionary)

Spawned

1. Egg Mass: a mass of eggs of a fish, amphibian, or other water animal

2. Offspring: progeny or offspring, especially if numerous

3. Fungal Threads: a mass of microscopic fungal threads mycelium, especially when prepared on a growth medium for starting a new culture of the fungus

4. Seed: a seed, germ, or the source of something


Ignorant:

2. lacking knowledge or education in general or in a specific subject

Not that this is the only thing I find disturbing and wrong about her email to Jill...

Posted by: Marie at December 12, 2009 8:22 AM


Enigma,

People who do not know God certainly cannot know the nature of God or His will for that matter...

God's nature is 100% love. Do you feel that an abortion is loving in nature?

God's has a will/plan for every individual - no matter how small. Wouldn't you say that people who do not know God and are doing things according to their own will, (not trusting God or seeking His guidance), are playing "God" themselves?

Posted by: Marie at December 12, 2009 8:37 AM


First, give me an example of a child who should not have been born to her parents.

Posted by: Cranky Catholic at December 12, 2009 8:38 AM


Pray. Prayer is needed for all souls who do not yet know God. May the Grace and Peace of Jesus Christ enlighten everyone. For without the Holy Spirit moving in a person's heart and mind, spiritually dead people cannot be rational.
Pray for this Gift.

Posted by: grace at December 12, 2009 8:44 AM


This email makes no sense the way it is worded. This girl is all over the place with her lack of logic.

She says on one hand that if a baby's meant to be born, it will be- and to stop interfering in God's will.... but then she says in the same breath that it should be a person's choice to interfere in God's plan and prematurely end a baby's life that could have been "meant to be", as she put it. Makes no sense.

And wow, this girl is really ignorant of how babies are created if she thinks that we are "spawned". She obviously doesn't know what it means. Gotta love Marie's 8:22 post.

Posted by: bethany Author Profile Page at December 12, 2009 8:51 AM


This lady either has a mistaken view or no view of God. It is like there are souls waiting for bodies and if the start is ended in abortion, that soul goes back of the line and see who they get the next time their number is up. This is a mistaken view of God and His creation and showcases a secular viewpoint of life. I don't know that your time would be well spent in trying to educate her in an email format. The fact that she reads your blog will eventually get through. Pray for her and encourage her to keep seeking with an open mind.

Posted by: Maria at December 12, 2009 8:53 AM


Here's Vanessa's myspace page:
http://www.myspace.com/yabbadaubado

Posted by: bethany Author Profile Page at December 12, 2009 8:54 AM


And I'm surprised to see she is 45....would have thought she was 15-19 by reading that email.

Posted by: bethany Author Profile Page at December 12, 2009 8:56 AM


Maria, after reading your explanation, I understand her email better. Maybe that is what she believes. Maybe she had an abortion and this is her way of making herself feel better about her decision. I've heard of abortionists telling women this lie as they are giving them abortions.

Posted by: bethany Author Profile Page at December 12, 2009 9:03 AM


Please think of this when an e-mail like this is sent...she maybe post-abortive.

The pain many of us suffered from and had to "hide" in order to get by in our everyday life can cause this type of reaction. Not unheard of in anyway.

How sad it is that she is obviously suffering deeply from some wound...if not her own abortion possible from abandonment. Pray for her as we should for all who walk in their blind pain.

Posted by: beenthere at December 12, 2009 9:07 AM


The Anchoress on line says it best.
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/theanchoress/2009/12/11/christmas-climate-lie-down-and-die

Posted by: grace at December 12, 2009 9:11 AM


Whether or not the author of the email is post-abortive (which may well be the case, I don't know), she's evidently not thinking rationally. By her logic, no murder or other crime should be punished. I mean, she's basically saying that anything that actually happens must be God's will. If she's going to be consistent, she'd have to oppose punishing all kinds of criminals as an interference with "God's will."

If you do respond, I'd just say that you're sorry you've (evidently) offended her, but you know, sometimes there's just a CHOICE, and you chose to be pro-life and write about it on your blog. If God intends you to stop, YOU WILL. BUT in God's good time. In the mean time, she should stop trying to interfere with God's Will.

Posted by: Courtney at December 12, 2009 9:21 AM


The answer is of course to respond with prayer.

This person confuses the will of God. There is his permissive will in that he allows evil to happen, but this does not mean we should do evil. Yes God will bring good out of evil, but we can never do evil to do good. We should be aligned with the positive will of God.

Posted by: Jeffrey L Miller at December 12, 2009 9:24 AM


Clearly, Vanessa has a greater issue with this:

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." [Mt 16:13-16]

And this;

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' [Mt 7:21-23]

Is it really the Father's will that his children kill his other children?

If so - why stop in the womb?

Vanessa - If we are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves, and this commandment is like Love the Lord your God with all your heart mind, soul and strength, then killing each other cannot be an expression of love, or God's will.

For He came to conquer death.

And for my brothers and sisters in Christ - is there a better way we can express love for Vanessa?

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at December 12, 2009 9:26 AM


I think Vanessa, by her last line, is labouring under the delusion that the baby conceived is soul-less and will thus come again sometime or will go to some other family. But neither mom nor dad is what gives a person his or her soul; it is only from God. It is too hard to believe that this unique and exclusive person carrying the genes of mom and dad and all their ancestors will never come again, though some of us may fool ourselves that this is the case. No. He or she, when killed, is dead. Forever. What God forms bears His imprint, and His imprint is our soul. This child will never come again, not at the right time, nor to the right parents.

Posted by: Carol at December 12, 2009 9:51 AM


I think that you ought to respond in a manner that demonstrates love for all people. It's hard when people scream and throw profanity around, but things work out for the best if people turn the other cheek. :)

Posted by: Vannah at December 12, 2009 10:05 AM


I can't understand her 'logic'..starting with the first statement she makes..Jill is 'intrusive'? how so? This is JILL'S BLOG. If somebody doesn't want to know what Jill has to say..DON'T READ IT. Seems to me, if Vanessa comes over and reads Jill's blog, then Vanessa is the one being 'intrusive'. I agree with everyone who said that this woman needs prayer. I also agree that she OBVIOUSLY knows nothing of "God's Will"....God help her.

Posted by: Pamela at December 12, 2009 10:19 AM


I think this email merely demonstrates how it is possible to be a very very ignorant person incapable of forming coherent thoughts.

Vanessa, please, please, try to think your way through.
A baby conceived is a living human being. To abort it means it dies.
Unless you support murder, abortion is never an option for dealing with an unwanted pregnancy?
Would you kill off a brother, father or classmate/coworker because they caused you problems?
If not, why not?

Posted by: angel at December 12, 2009 10:45 AM


Bethany, I agree, her email made her sound younger and I would be willing to bet she had an abortion as a young woman, was obviously wounded by the experience and her emotional development has been hindered by her wound.

My heart goes out to her.

I'm sure Jill or a post-abortive Mom could write something better than this but it might be something along these lines:

Hi Vanessa darling,

Thank you for your note. It's always nice to hear from my one of my biggest supporters :)

Allow me to respond to your comments one by one:

A bible thumper? Guilty as charged. At one point in my life, I was a messed up (little girl/young woman). I cried out to God and He heard me, came into my heart and gave me a new life, His Life. He is so loving and merciful and kind. He is the best Heavenly Father anyone could hope to have. He forgives me for all of my sins, and cleanses me from all my unrighteousness, even when I don't deserve it. And He helps me and leads me and guides me through this life of trials and hardships.

Do I know the way? I certainly don't have all the answers. Regarding unwanted pregnancy, it's true many young girls find themselves in a difficult situation. Being a mother is a huge commitment. There can be shame in getting pregnant especially when you don't feel you are in a position to raise a child. If a young lady decides to carry the child to term and put him/her up for adoption, there are conflicting emotions to work through as she is compelled to give away a child she's begun to emotionally bond with.

However, as quick and easy a solution as abortion sounds in terms of making this unwanted pregnancy "go away", there are a host of complications. First, there is the danger of the surgery itself. Women die or are severely injured every year getting abortions. Statistics prove that women who get abortions are more likely to become unfertile, have more miscarriages, develop breast cancer in addition to a whole host of psychological issues including depression and suicidal thoughts. Many women are sold a bill of goods that their abortion is an easy fix to their unwanted pregnancy only to find out afterward that they were tricked into killing their own child.

As far as God’s will is considered Vanessa, He is the Creator of Life. There isn’t one child that He didn’t plan and provide for. They are all precious to Him, just like you are so very precious to Him. When a mother is given the privilege of childbirth, it is up to her to determine, to choose whether to parent that child or give him/her up for adoption.

I’m sorry for putting it so bluntly Venessa but killing God’s precious gift is not a morally acceptable option.

My prayer for you sweetheart is that you meet the One who is eagerly waiting for you to turn to Him with all your heart so that He can shower you with His Love, Mercy, Kindness and Forgiveness. He can flood your soul with His Peace and give you Everlasting Joy. Furthermore, He has a plan for your life that is fulfilling and glorious, just like the plan He has for every child conceived in the Earth.

And if you have had an abortion, your child is safe with Him, waiting for you to join him/her in Glory.

Take care.

Posted by: Ed at December 12, 2009 10:54 AM


"...other peoples' decisions..." (by definition) reflect their own rationalized, personal will. These decisions are only consistent with God's will if the person conforms their will to God's...or does the email's author expect God to conform His will to hers?

Generally speaking, if it is God's will to end a pregnancy before birth, I think we call that a spontaneous miscarriage, not an elective abortion.

And if you want to take God out of the argument: We also know (scientifically speaking) that each of us is conceived with unique DNA; meaning once conceived, a person is never duplicated or "re-conceived" to some other parents. Abortion ends the one and only chance that that unique human being had at a life in this world.

Posted by: FrankR at December 12, 2009 11:02 AM


Oops, I meant to say childbearing, not childbirth.

I bet a lot of you Moms would be quick to correct me about the act of childbirth being a privilege.

You gals that are able to tough that out are to be admired :)

I'd probably opt for the epidural!

Posted by: Ed at December 12, 2009 11:03 AM


Show me a baby that "shouldn't be born to those parents," and I'll show you some parents who should love the child God blessed them with.

Anything else is unconscionable and wicked.

Posted by: Jamie Schofield at December 12, 2009 11:07 AM



And I'm surprised to see she is 45....would have thought she was 15-19 by reading that email.

Posted by: bethany at December 12, 2009 8:56 AM


Maybe she is 15-19 on the inside.

Posted by: hippie at December 12, 2009 11:14 AM


That was exactly my point Hippie. And she should be responded to accordingly.

Posted by: Ed at December 12, 2009 11:19 AM


It sounds like that emotional wound is still pretty raw.

Posted by: Ed at December 12, 2009 11:20 AM


Hey Jamie,

I'm still looking forward to having that beer with you :)

Posted by: Ed at December 12, 2009 11:23 AM


"Show me a baby that "shouldn't be born to those parents," and I'll show you some parents who should love the child God blessed them with.

Anything else is unconscionable and wicked.

Posted by: Jamie Schofield at December 12, 2009 11:07 AM"

Absolutely Jamie! In EVERY situation where there is abuse and the child and parent should be separated, guess who's fault is always it? THE PARENTS!!! So why punish the baby when a parent is unfit? Makes no sense, but then again, it's rare when a pro-abort does make sense.

Posted by: Peg at December 12, 2009 11:44 AM


I don't think talking about God right off the bat would help this person. She clearly isn't thinking very clearly, theologically, and is probably not very God-oriented.

How I might respond...

-----

You wrote, “Sometimes children should not be born to the parents that spawned them.” Could you explain why these children should not be born?

*wait for response*

[er...her response from there will determine how to continue. Explanation below.]

-----

Different people have different sticking points that they think justify abortion. Emotional venting on their part only tells you that they support abortion; you need to ask about their reasons.

After they tell you their reasons, you'll need to state where they're being reasonable (e.g. "poverty is a terrible thing, I agree") to show them -- and yourself -- that you're listening. And then you use that common ground (agreement about the evil of poverty) to approach the disagreements (abortion should/shouldn't be performed for reason X).

Often times people begin with irrational emotional venting, and after you ask them a couple questions, they calm down and start thinking quite clearly.

We are speaking to people, not positions. The more we treat them like positions, the less they will listen to what we have to tell them.

Posted by: mtm at December 12, 2009 12:32 PM


Vanessa,

So you think Jill is an intrusive B@%$* who wants to control other people's decisions because of her unique take on Biblical injunctions such as "Thou shalt not murder"?

If that makes her an intrusive B@%$* then I must heartily agree with you. And might I hasten to add that she's not only intrusive in militating against mothers killing their own babies, it's far worse than you portray.

She actually believes that no man should have the right to rape you. Can you believe that? What a Victorian scold! She even thinks that no one should murder you, or steal from you, or bear false witness against you! What an insatiable beast!

She even thinks that should you be naked or starving, people (beginning with herself) have a moral obligation to see to your food, clothing, and shelter. G-d D%$#@*&^ busy bodies!

Why not let nature take its course. If women are too stupid to know that they're being stalked, then let's have a hefty helping of Natural Selection. "Hey You! Out Of The Gene Pool!" Same goes for people too ill-equipped to see to their own sustenance. I say thin the herd. And while we're at it, close the damned hospitals. Who are those damned trauma surgeons to interfere with nature's course because you were too stupid to take off the iPod before crossing the street? Dummies who are so easily distractible are doing us a favor by dying young. You sick and injured people, you rape and murder victims, how do we know it wasn't God's plan to cull the herd?

I'm with you all the way Vanessa. It's every man for himself. Ignore Jesus saying that we are our brother's keeper. Probably drunk when he said it. And that last judgment scene in Matthew 25, "When I was hungry you gave me to eat..." Obviously a later invention. God wants us looking out for #1. Whatever happens to others through our neglect is simply to be chalked up to God's will.

You tell 'em Vanessa. 1.8 Billion abortions world wide since 1960 can be distilled to one word: CHOICE.

Just a few questions Vanessa. I'm a little confused. You say parents 'spawn' children. I thought fish spawned, no? Don't parents gestate and give birth- a much more loving, nurturing environment and experience?

Also, how do we discern God's plan, if not through the repository of His self-disclosure to humanity, namely Scripture? Apart from the Darwinian model you set forth, how can we judge ANY behavior to be immoral or illegal, especially if we don't have you on speed dial to discern for us God's will in any given situation.

From what you have revealed here, every career criminal would love to have you as the prosecutor in their county. You've declared that there are no moral absolutes. Can you please explain yourself?

Posted by: Gerard Nadal at December 12, 2009 1:34 PM


Typical pro-choice!

Posted by: Jordan Delaney at December 12, 2009 1:48 PM


The correct way to respond to this is to point out that our position on abortion is no different than our position on the murder of pre-schoolers.

Yes, I'm trying to enact laws that will stop some people from making decisions. I readily admit that and don't try to defend it. That's what pretty much all laws do. The laws we propose are, well... good.

Posted by: Alex at December 12, 2009 1:54 PM


Hey Vanessa,

If you're monitoring this thread, and our suspicions were accurate, that you are a post-abortive Mom, there is a website called Rachel's Vineyard that is a great resource for anyone seeking inner healing from the hurts of a past abortion. Apparently they have retreats available in your area.

I hope you feel better.

Posted by: Ed at December 12, 2009 2:07 PM


Great reply Chris Arsenault!!!!

Maria, you and I must be 100% in agreement. Everything you ever post always has me fist pumping the air!

I thought what you all thought...for this topic to set this woman, a STRANGER off like this...she must be post-abortive.

I had a friend who FREAKED out over my pro-life blog on my myspace page. It was a blog I wrote and didn't care if anyone read or not. I never invited her to read it or anything but you would've thought I called her on the phone and commanded her to read it the way she had a hissyfit. She was SO MEAN the way she responded and attacked me as a PERSON and a mom. It really stung me.

I was a little taken aback at first and angered. And then I calmed down and tried to explain why I was pro-life and then the truth came out--she is the mother of at least one dead baby. I couldn't understand if she'd had multiple abortions because she seemed to allude to it but she had at least one. And then all her anger at me suddenly made sense. And I didn't feel anger anymore.

We have to love these women which can be hard when they're so volatile and hostile and just unlovable. But Christ loves us even when we're unlovable and we should show that love to others.

Posted by: Sydney M. at December 12, 2009 2:20 PM


Sydney,

I'm sorry your friend treated you like that, but at least you know now and can pray/help her!

I think the anger and hostility comes from this:


John 3:19-21 (New International Version)

19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

and...

Ephesians 5:12-14 (New International Version)

12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.
13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible,
14for it is light that makes everything visible.
This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."

Jill's site, and being a pro-life witness is a light that shines through us by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. When this light shines on the darkness of abortion, women who had them have knowledge of what they have done. The evil is exposed to them.

Vanessa's email to Jill began with hate towards her, and just as the scriptures tell us, they will HATE the light.

Posted by: Marie at December 12, 2009 2:57 PM


My response would be this:

I speak for those who cannot (the unborn), not those who can (the born.)

Thank you for your opinion. Feel free to email me anytime you would like to discuss these issues, rather than hurl insults.

Posted by: Cristy S. at December 12, 2009 3:13 PM


This post is in response to Enigma. His/her comments will be in italics and my response will be regular font.

I think the point here is actually a valid one, despite the poor way in which this query is phrased. Assuming that one does believe in the Christian God, how are we to know that our interpretation of His plan is accurate?

We can't. This is where you accept that God is bigger than you are. He doesn't need our permission or assistance to ensure that everything He planned works out the way He wants it to. He's entirely capable of doing it on his own.

Further, how are we to which actions actually violate this plan, assuming that He has one?

Read the Bible. Some things are spelled out for us so that we don't need to wonder about them. That way, we can look at some action or another and go, "This is wrong." or "This is right." In fact, that's one of the major purposes of the Bible in the first place.

And then how are we to judge the severity of the violation--assuming, that He has a definitive plan and, secondly, that we have indeed violated it through either arbitrary choice or a misinterpretation of His word?

It doesn't actually matter how severe a violation of God's law is. They are all wrong.

Now, I would think there is a limit to how much can be reasonably legislated on this basis in a secular nation. For example, I don't think we should make it illegal to be gay, a la Uganda. However, when something is not only immoral, but also harms society as a whole (like abortion), then there isn't really a big question mark there as to what God wants you to do about it. He wants you to oppose it. Full stop.

It's entirely possible that all of us--even fervent believers--almost continually violate the intentions of the One that they most revere without even realizing that they have done so (ie., by choosing, perhaps to attend a university other than the one that He has selected, ect.).

That's only assuming that it is indeed possible to thwart God's plan. In which case, I refer you to a Yiddish saying. "Man makes plans. God laughs." You are crediting humans with an awfully huge amount of power if you think we can do anything that God hasn't planned for.

So, here comes the brain-breaking part. The fact that we can't thwart God's plan does not mean we can not do evil. Clearly we can, and there are whole history books full of examples of just that. However, to say that we can act contrary to God's instructions (do these things, don't do those things) is different from saying that we can act contrary to God's plan. Acting contrary to the instructions is always wrong. Acting contrary to the plan is always impossible.

...Yes, I am a Calvinist, for anyone wondering.

Posted by: Keli Hu at December 12, 2009 3:20 PM


Keli Hu,

I wanted that plaque last year and actually received it as a Christmas gift last year!

I hung it in the hallway right outside my bedroom so it's the first thing I see every morning.

Mine says, "We Plan -- God laughs".

It's a great reminder to me every day of Who is in control!

Posted by: Marie at December 12, 2009 3:36 PM


My response:

I am sorry that you feel that murder should be a legally protected choice. I will be praying for you.

My love in Christ,
MaryRose

Posted by: MaryRose at December 12, 2009 3:59 PM


Wow. It seems that the best thing to do is just ignore them as they are not genuine seekers of truth.

Posted by: Abortion Support at December 12, 2009 4:40 PM


First, the *choice* comes BEFORE conception. And once conceived, the fact is that there may be unwanted pregnancies but there are no unwanted children. Thanks to abortion (sarcasm) people are having to adopt from other countries for a newborn. There is NO cost to a woman who will bear the child until birth for adoption.

Aside from scripture being used absolutely incorrectly to justify the killing of the unborn, there are those who are atheist/libertarian/gay and lesbian groups who are prolife. As a matter of fact, science alone can prove that it is indeed the taking of a human life...non negotiable anymore.

There are indeed plenty of organizations waiting to help a woman in wrap-around fashion to help through the pregnancy to adoption. A mere 9 months is nothing compared to the killing of a child, and a bio mom can live the rest of her life knowing she made the CHOICE of love by having completed those 9 months.

The phone book opens up just as easily to abortion alternatives as it does to the abortion clinic.

In summation, the real choice is prior to conception and if that choice was not made, the next best choice is adoption, the loving choice.

Posted by: MemoriaDei at December 12, 2009 4:54 PM


Actually, this blog has been answering those questions for years.

Why don't you start with the first entry and work your way up from there, Vanessa?

Posted by: carder at December 12, 2009 4:55 PM


Hello Vanessa. You seem to be looking at children as a "choice" without dignity unless their parents want them. Do you think all are human beings or just the few who are "wanted"? If we believe Life is sacred for us adults, why is it not true for those born in lesser circumstances? I have recently seen the movie "The Human Experience" and seeing suffering through the eyes of brothers visiting the Lost Children of Peru, they showed me that there are children who were unwanted by their parents, yet they are joyful children who want to LIVE!!! despite their sufferings and being unwanted at birth, someone now loves and takes care of them. You know what those children did? Those children showed a band of brothers searching for meaning in their lives-the meaning of love, the meaning of being human. Have we forgotten what it means to be human? When we start talking about killing children-especially the unborn as a choice and not as a human being with dignity and the right to life, we need to remember the words of Martin Luther King Jr. "Remember, everything that Hitler did was legal." Every life is worth living. I believe that. And because of the Victor, Angela and the other children from Peru, I firmly believe that. Every Victor and Angela deserves the right to life.

Posted by: Chistina Hiracheta at December 12, 2009 5:12 PM


The pre school killers probably came from messed up mums who would have aborted the foetus if possible. Most killers have bad parents who fail them totally. Yet you think if a woman realises her baby is at risk of becoming abused and therefore a possible abuser, she should still unleash it on the world? Most unwanted foetus' suffer excess stress hormones fed to them by the mums umbillical cord whilst still in the womb.Abuse in utero. And so it begins. And eventually ends in them being punished for murdering a real and developed child.Or being murdered themselves. where is the logic?

Posted by: lilmishap at December 12, 2009 5:31 PM


Reference Ezekiel 18 and also Luke 10:31 where Jesus Christ says that things occur by accident or "by chance" along with Luke 13:1-5.

Then finish by telling her to F-off. Works for me!

Posted by: Ezek1319 at December 12, 2009 5:37 PM


This lady only wants to pick a fight it seems like. So I won't even respond. If she were a post abortive mother, she most deffently won't refur to people such as myself as spon! I am a human, and am not a fish! Just like my history teacher said, People these day's don't know how to think for themselves! However, If you did respond, I'd tell her of the harm abortion does to wimmen Such as Sycloria Williams, and others such as Angele, and chalenge her to look up this information up for herself. If she continuse her Lib talk, then she is a Lib. An honest person, would look the information up, and read it for themselves! Obama, is trying to turn us in to a nation of unlearned cretins! RJ

Posted by: RJ Sandefur at December 12, 2009 5:51 PM


Good point RJ Sandefur!

I would also respond by first asking her "How old was your baby when you killed her??"

Posted by: Ezek1319 at December 12, 2009 5:57 PM


I totally agree RJ. Ignore the troll.Don't waste your time.

Posted by: Prolifer L at December 12, 2009 6:43 PM


Thank you. Ever since I've began telling Sycloria's Story to people, who tell me abortion is a woman's choice say, "Wow, I didn't know about that side of it. However, some christians will make the statement, "RJ, I don't feel sory for this woman one bit, she got what she deserved! She shouldn't have had an abortion! That is such a weak argument, so I respond with What about you or I? What if we got just what we deserved? Hell? RJ

Posted by: RJ Sandefur at December 12, 2009 6:51 PM


"Blessed are you when men revile you and utter evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad for your reward is great in heaven; for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you."
Jill,rejoice and be glad because you are blessed and I am sure you will be able to bless this woman who curses you. The Lord will give you the right words.

Posted by: Darlajune at December 12, 2009 8:05 PM


I would say..

We all "want to control other people's decisions." This is one principle of our legal system: some decisions should simply not be made. Stealing is against the law; rape is against the law; murdering an adult is against the law. These are illegal because of the basic consensus that those decisions should not be made. Most pro-lifers fully support all sorts of decisions. Women should have a right to choose their occupation, their husband, where they want to live, on and on. Some choices are just wrong.

As far as the "Bible thumper" claim, there are many non-religious pro-life people, myself being one of them. I don't "thump" any Bibles because, though I know many good and wonderful Christian people, accepting that a book is literally the word of God is not something I could do lightly. Faith does not come easily to someone like me. The use of reason is the basis of my pro-life view.

"Sometimes children should not be born to the parents that spawned them."
The real question here is not whether a child should or should not be born (or conceived), but what is a child in the womb. What is the unborn? If the unborn isn't a living distinct human being, then abortion is really no different than an appendectomy. But if the unborn IS a distinct living member of the human family, then abortion is murder, and it is wrong.

I would say that it is clear to me that a fetus is a living distinct valuable human being, and we can't use its unique situation and location in the womb to justify killing it. We cannot discriminate on it based on its small size, its environment (the womb), its dependency on its mother, or its level of development; since we do not use such factors to discriminate on born people.

All arguments about "choice" and "learning experiences" fall away when we realize that the unborn child is a distinct human being worthy of protection. However, I used to be pro-choice myself … so I know too well that using things like "logic" and "reason" to argue the pro-life position will have no effect until the person is ready.

Here's hoping you can get through to her though!!

Posted by: Genevieve at December 12, 2009 8:13 PM


lilmishap,
Did you say unleash a baby on the world?

Posted by: truthseeker at December 12, 2009 8:34 PM


I'm not sure I would answer it, but I have to say that she sounds like a very unhappy person. Her thoughts about "God's will" and "learning experiences" have a ring of desperate justification about them.

Posted by: Marauder at December 12, 2009 10:27 PM


A great theologian stated that the unforgivable sin is, "The sin of so often and so consistently refusing God's will that in the end it cannot be recognized". That is, one can reach a point in one's life, by their choices and behaviors, that even He can't save.

For one to blaspheme God by stating that termination of a child in the womb can somehow ever be related to God's will is certainly very close to being not able to recognize that a child in the womb is in fact one of the most direct and explicit expressions of the Creator's will to always choose life that He will ever demonstrate on the planet.

May God have mercy and patience for these lost and theologically ignorant souls at a time of the year when we remember and celebrate that God chose to reveal Himself, yes, in a helpless and defenseless baby.

Posted by: Phil Schembri is Hisman at December 12, 2009 10:34 PM


No Jill, I wouldn't answer her. She has her mind made up for now....but God. I agree with the poster who said she sounds "post abortive" herself. Who is she trying to convince? I don't think you or us...probably herself. May God have mercy on her...

Posted by: eileen smith at December 12, 2009 11:30 PM


Probably not the best way to respond - but sooo tempting!


Dear Vanessa,

Thank you for your interest and comments. I believe I have some things that may be of interest for you.

First, please find below a link to an online Bible. I believe you will find the Contemporary English version which is written at the 8th grade reading level a bit challenging but there is also a Kindergartener's Bible which you should find acceptable. I would encourage you to read it from cover to cover taking special notice of the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount. I have high hopes for your ability to correct your poor theology with some applied study of Scripture.

My second recommendation would be for you to call the Drug Abuse hotline at the number I have included below. Without the obvious effects of chemical stimulants I feel certain you are a caring, rational human being instead of the irrational harpie portrayed in your email rant.

My best wishes for your complete recovery from drug abuse and for your growth in your understanding of God.

Regards,

Posted by: Phylis Maddox at December 12, 2009 11:47 PM


What a wonderful evening I have had reading your comments...I have been laughing all night! Post abortive? not even close! I did have 2 freinds who had the procedure and it was not an easy decision for either of them...but I support their decision. I get so sick and tired of reading about you God Fearing people(The ones who are casting so much judgement on me and making unfounded accusations)telling the rest of us how we should live.
I am not for any abortion after 3 months but before that, it's just a medical procedure and you need to get over it.
Don't think I don't know what it feels like for a baby to die...My first daughter died at 3 months from SIDS. During the funeral, the pastor tried to "SAVE" me...I don't think a funeral is a time to get your bonus heaven points.

If something good happens...you call it a blessing!
If something bad happens...God works in mysterious ways...

If someone dies...It was there time to go

You are all so full of bologne and have an explanation for everything...Oh..and BTW...I grew up in the church..until I realized it was just a bunch of condesending people bagging on each other during intermission =I

(removed personal info)

Posted by: Vanessa at December 13, 2009 12:53 AM


"I am not for any abortion after 3 months but before that, it's just a medical procedure and you need to get over it."

What's is called after 3 months if it's not a medical procedure?

Posted by: jasper Author Profile Page at December 13, 2009 1:36 AM


My response to Vanessa would be that it's awfully peculiar to refer to other people as "Bible-thumpers" and then to turn around and claim that you just KNOW that when a fetal human being dies, it was "God's plan."

Posted by: bmmg39 at December 13, 2009 1:44 AM


I would not respond. You know the old saying. Do not argue with a fool because nobody will know who is who. Keep educating people, and let this moron live in their ignorance.

Posted by: tim kraulidis at December 13, 2009 2:05 AM


Vanessa,

You lost a 3 month old to SIDS and you come here advocating the slaughter of innocents? This isn't the forum for you. Had I this knowledge earlier, I would not have posted at all, save to tell you that counseling is where you need to be, not here. Your rage is leaking out sideways in all of the most inappropriate ways.

God Bless

Posted by: Gerard Nadal at December 13, 2009 2:18 AM


I guess Vanessa would like us not to interfere with "God's plan" should she suffer a calamity, life threatening illness, or direct threat to her own life.

Some people are independent like that......

Posted by: pharmer at December 13, 2009 2:28 AM


Vanessa,

I'm sorry to hear you lost your daughter to SIDS.

I also understand where you're coming from regarding some pastors and congregations. At times, when compassion and love are probably best expressed silently and with respectful restraint, many are focused on themselves and forget the one who is suffering. Regardless of faith, all of us do a really poor job of showing love to one another.

At times, love has to be about sharing the truth. For instance, it's hard to read this:

I grew up in the church..until I realized it was just a bunch of condesending people bagging on each other during intermission… Posted by: Vanessa at December 13, 2009 12:53 AM

and not point out this accusation of yours is precisely what you did with your letter to Jill.

And, just an observation, but your 3 month mark for approving abortion coincides with the most likely time period your two friends underwent their abortions.

Apparently something on this website touched a raw nerve, for you to email Jill.

Jill can be sarcastically witty with the media personalities she regularly spars with, but usually not with individuals who email her. My guess is she's hoping her readers will rise above petty persecution and perhaps provide some insight for you. From your response, I'd say it's a mix.

Don't think I'm not slightly skeptical of both your letter and response. Sincerity is established over time. For all I know, this might be a gag you're playing for laughs. We've seen it before.

I'm leaning toward your sincerity - and as Gerard wisely suggested, this forum is not the place to really discuss deep personal matters. That would be better done with wise, compassionate and non-judgmental friends.

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at December 13, 2009 6:44 AM


"I am not for any abortion after 3 months but before that, it's just a medical procedure and you need to get over it."

recognize, Vanessa that you used a euphemism here - a "medical procedure" is a sanitized phrase for the killing of a developing human being who is genetically unique from it's mother.
You can call it whatever you want Vanessa, but in the end, the baby still dies.

I am very sorry to hear that you lost a child to SIDS, but you sound bitter and angry at God and at people who have children. I agree that you need some counselling. The death of a child, as you've experienced, is a terrible thing to experience and is also similar to what post-abortive mothers experience.

I agree with Gerard, your rage is palpable. :(

Posted by: angel at December 13, 2009 9:11 AM


Vanessa,

First and foremost, I am so, so sorry for the loss of your child. I couldn't even imagine what you went through and are still going through. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

you said, "During the funeral, the pastor tried to "SAVE" me...I don't think a funeral is a time to get your bonus heaven points."

Pastor's know that they do not get "bonus heaven points" and they also know that only God can "save" someone. It's a gift from God, not the pastor

I don't want to even speculate as to what words the pastor may have chosen to try to get you "saved", but if he truly believes in Heaven, and believes you aren't saved, maybe his intentions were appropriate at the funeral because 1) you never know when your time is up and 2), the pastor saw your pain and wanted you to be able to spend eternity with your daughter.

Also, along with becoming "saved" comes a whole bunch of blessings...healing from any type of pain is just one of them!

I'm with ya' on the church thing, though. I have a difficult time with the hypocrisy of others, but then I have to realize that if I'm thinking about what they are doing, I am judging them myself. I certainly don't want to be judged by others, so I try not to do it myself. My relationship with God is between Him and me alone. If you don't like going to church, as I certainly don't, try finding a good pastor who's articles, sermons, etc. are online. Nothing beats going to church in your pajamas! :)

And one more thing.

You said, "If something good happens...you call it a blessing!
If something bad happens...God works in mysterious ways...

If someone dies...It was there time to go"


Sounds odd, I agree. I had a hard time with these answers people would give me when I went through things myself. They would also tell me "In everything give thanks...", and I had a REALLY hard time with that one as well. I never fully understood these things until I read the book of Job. It really helped. If you don't have a bible, you can go to this link:

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job&version=NASB

It lets you choose the version as well. I prefer the New American Standard Bible, but that's just me.

Vanessa, reading this really helped me understand things. If you get a chance, maybe even sometime in the future if you think about it, please read it. It doesn't take that long to read and there are so many things that helped me (and my child) through the rough times in life in this book. I hope it can help you (if you want it) as well.

Lastly, I don't agree at all with Chris Arsenault's post at December 13, 2009 6:44 AM. I've seen people on this forum post deep, personal matters and get support and even make friends "on the side" with others here that are willing to help them or help them find the help they need. I think what you posted about your child passing from SIDS IS a deep, personal matter, and I commend you for sharing your pain. If you feel that it's easier to share pain with strangers (as I sometimes do), feel free! It's your pain and you have every right to express it where you'd like, and if it helps you in any way, more power to ya'!

Take care, Vanessa. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!



Posted by: Marie at December 13, 2009 9:13 AM


Marie, I think what perhaps disturbs me is that if Vanessa had written Jill in a different manner than she did, we might be more sympathetic to her pain.
Her email called Jill an intrusive "b****". She wasn't searching or struggling to understand - she was angry, combative and insulting towards the blog author.

I think Chris is correct in stating that something on Jill's blog struck a raw nerve for Vanessa.

It's one thing to come on a blog and make reasonable statements, question positions and viewpoints and bare your soul a little. It's quite another to send hate mail to someone who doesn't agree with your proabortive position.

Posted by: angel at December 13, 2009 9:24 AM


Angel,

Why do YOU think Jill posted her e-mail to begin with?

When I put myself in Vanessa's shoes, I'm VERY sympathetic to her pain. People don't always relay their pain in the same ways, Angel.

I remember when I was younger, I disagreed with my parents on several issues, and said some really mean, nasty and hateful things to them. Yes, simply because I disagreed with them. It's not uncommon and it does happen.

Also, when I was younger, I supported women who had abortions as well. It didn't bother me at all at the time. Later in life, though, it did and still does. For some it will hit them at a time in their life like a ton of bricks, and for some it won't. Again, people don't always relay their pain and open a conversation or discussion in the same ways.

Posted by: noemail@noemail.com at December 13, 2009 9:49 AM


noemail whoever you are, I don't care how hurting you are, it is inappropriate to express your anger, disagreement and HATE in the manner Vanessa did to Jill. Period. :P

Posted by: angel at December 13, 2009 9:54 AM


Angel,

I don't care how hurting you are,..."

Well now I understand your viewpoints.

Wow.

Posted by: Marie at December 13, 2009 10:08 AM


Vanessa:

It's sad that you lost a child to SIDS, however, this gives you no moral high ground for the justification of your views on abortion. All of us have suffered loss. I lost my mother and father, two brothers and a nephew and almost lost an 11 year old. These events did not cause me to run from God, rather I ran to Him for I know that He is the only One that can make things right.

You're mad at God and not the one who really caused your pain, Satan, who wants to kill you, steal all you have and destroy you. Do not forget that none of us as sinners, or law breakers deserves anything from God let the alone the sacrifice of His Son on the cross for our redemption.

It's sad that you've chosen to cut off the only One who can heal you. Perhaps He will grant you repentance from your very, very deep root of bitterness.

Remember this, God only wants what's best for you and yes He allows bad things to happen to all of us but, He does prmoise that things work for the good for those that love Him and are called according to His purposes.

There is absolutely no way for you to know on this side of eternity as to why God allowed your child to die. The only answer is faith and trust in Him that He knows what He is doing.

Therefore, we must trust Him who holds time and the ultimate fulfillment of our destinies in the very palm of His hands.

These few years we spend here on earth as spiritual beings in physical bodies is nothing compared to the eternity we will spend on the other side in our spiritual and indestructible bodies.

Reading the Book of Job would be good if you understand the context in which it was written. Remember it was Satan that killed Job's children, took his possessions and struck him with a disease, however, God would not allow Satan to kill Job. God's Soevereignty over all matters of life and death is never to be challenged and it is He and He alone who can be trusted to save us, yes, even from ourselves.

My hope for you is that the light of His unimaginable love for you would go on in your heart.

Posted by: Phil Schembri is Hisman at December 13, 2009 10:12 AM


These few years we spend here on earth as spiritual beings in physical bodies is nothing compared to the eternity we will spend on the other side in our spiritual and indestructible bodies.

Posted by: Phil Schembri is Hisman at December 13, 2009 10:12 AM

Exactly! We are only here a split second compared to eternity. God is so much more concerned about our soul than our earthly bodies!
There will be NO PAIN and NO SORROW in Heaven. The lack of pain and sorrow was not promised here on earth.

Posted by: Marie at December 13, 2009 10:19 AM


Angel,

I don't care how hurting you are,..."

Well now I understand your viewpoints.

Wow.
Posted by: Marie at December 13, 2009 10:08 AM

Marie,
there are appropriate ways of expressing anger.
Where would you draw the line on Vanessa expressing her hatred towards Jill?
hate email?
death threats?
going to Jill's house and firebombing her?

where, Marie? where?
Or is it because the internet is seemingly soooo discreet and so safe that people say and do things they never would face to face?
Would Vanessa have said this to Jill's face in public at some sort of event?

You are suffering from misguided charity. I understand your sentiments but don't share your views at all.

Posted by: angel at December 13, 2009 10:20 AM


Vanessa, You may not be post-abortive but you are reacting like someone who is. I know... I had an abortion and have come to know many more women who have and yes many of us spewed our anger out as you have.

Baby dying from abortion or baby dying from SIDS what difference does it make when in the end the pain is to much to bear.

Your judgement of those who are "Christians" can very well be right. Why? Because we are all human and we will fall, fail and sin. We will make mistakes. Being a Christian does not make us perfect, by all means for me it makes us more accountable and that is about it.

If for some reason you coming here and reading the responses gives you a sense of empowerment..like "look at all these people thinking they know what they are talking about and yet they don't know me." why don't you stay and reveal yourself some more so we can "know you"...that is the real power...being intimate with others and not hiding behind your wall of pain. Yes you will get some responses you will not like but I am willing to bet over time you will come to know many on here will come to care about you.

We don't have to agree on what we believe but to show the love of Christ is not based on agreement. It's based on the fact that you and I along with the others are made in the image of God and that alone should be enough.

My thoughts and prayers are with you as I get ready for Mass today.

May the peace of Jesus be with you as we live out this season of advent and enter into the holy season of Christmas.

Posted by: beenthere at December 13, 2009 10:31 AM


Baby dying from abortion or baby dying from SIDS what difference does it make when in the end the pain is to much to bear.

agreed. It's is too much to bear, that's why finding someone to share your pain and grief with is so important.

We don't have to agree on what we believe but to show the love of Christ is not based on agreement. It's based on the fact that you and I along with the others are made in the image of God and that alone should be enough.

again, agreed. Vanessa God does love you and wants you to know this.
Maybe, he directed you here all along - to help you find the help you need to heal.
You will be in my prayers.

Posted by: angel at December 13, 2009 10:36 AM


We don't have to agree on what we believe but to show the love of Christ is not based on agreement. It's based on the fact that you and I along with the others are made in the image of God and that alone should be enough.

Posted by: beenthere at December 13, 2009 10:31 AM

again, agreed. Vanessa God does love you and wants you to know this.
Maybe, he directed you here all along - to help you find the help you need to heal.
You will be in my prayers.

Posted by: angel at December 13, 2009 10:36 AM

Angel,

I'm glad that "beenthere" could help you see what I was trying to say to you all along.

Posted by: Marie at December 13, 2009 10:42 AM


sorry Marie but your comments appeared to be advocating that people express their pain in whatever way is best for them.
Depends upon what you mean by that. There are healthy ways to expressing anger and pain and there are unhealthy ways. Vanessa's way was unhealthy.
Therefore, I still disagree with your comments. :)
Nothing's changed in my way of thinking from 9:13am this morning and now.

But thanks for the smack-down. :)

Posted by: angel at December 13, 2009 10:52 AM


I'm certain people don't like to be told that their friends, that they might view as family due to their circumstances, are murderers. I'm sure they do not want to hear that they willingly invest their time and emotions into people who have killed their children. That must be hard, no doubt. But attacking those people who expose the nature of what your friends have done is not the way to deal with such things.

Vanessa, does it not bother you to know that your friends willingly made a decision and paid hard-cold cash for it which accomplished the same end as your poor daughter who you loved and cared dearly for met against your will? When you would've done anything to keep your child from going before her time, they ushered their children hastily to their graves?

Vanessa, your qualms are not and should not be with us, but I think you might have some misdirected anger towards your friends, and you might want to address that. Also, not all those who oppose abortion are religious. You will find several here like myself who have no religion whatsoever and oppose abortion on the grounds that it is the taking of another human life, and that human life should be protected by the law, as all of our lives should be.

Posted by: xalisae at December 13, 2009 11:07 AM


sorry Marie but your comments appeared to be advocating that people express their pain in whatever way is best for them.

No, I NEVER said that it was ok to call Jill a
b--ch, even in a private e-mail. Nor did I ever advocate it or even suggest that it was ok.

You apparently misread my comments from the beginning. Let me explain (again).

I disagreed with Chris' post that (his word's): that "this forum is not the place to really discuss deep personal matters. That would be better done with wise, compassionate and non-judgmental friends."

Which I responded (to Vanessa) with:
"I've seen people on this forum post deep, personal matters and get support and even make friends "on the side" with others here that are willing to help them or help them find the help they need. I think what you posted about your child passing from SIDS IS a deep, personal matter, and I commend you for sharing your pain. If you feel that it's easier to share pain with strangers (as I sometimes do), feel free! It's your pain and you have every right to express it where you'd like, and if it helps you in any way, more power to ya'!"

Angel, my response to Vanessa was about her pain with her child passing from SIDS. Both Chris and I were talking about THIS FORUM. Although Chris brought up both this forum AND the email to Jill, my post was not a response in absolutely any way about her PRIVATE e-mail to Jill. I had absolutely no problem with her response on THIS FORUM, which is what I ADDRESSED. I had sincere compassion for HER PAIN which was addressed on THIS FORUM.

I totally agree with Chris' statement in the same post that "Jill can be sarcastically witty with the media personalities she regularly spars with, but usually not with individuals who email her. My guess is she's hoping her readers will rise above petty persecution and perhaps provide some insight for you."

Very wise indeed.


Posted by: Marie at December 13, 2009 11:42 AM


Emails and postings are funny things. It's very easy to misunderstand and be misunderstood because you don't have the benefit of eye contact, voice inflection, hand gestures and other forms of non-verbal communication to clarify intent and meaning.

I've seen exchanges really blow up and get out of control between people who's views really aren't very different, just misunderstood. Sometimes we need to just let it go, in the Love and Forgiveness of Christ...

Vanessa,

Sorry to hear about your bad experience in the church. Unfortunately, it's not uncommon, as you've observed in the comments of this thread.

There is good news however. God is pouring out His Spirit and His Love in a new and refreshing way. In recent years there have been revivals in Toronto, Brownsville FL, Lakeland FL, and now it's breaking forth in Kansas City. (You knew at some point it was going to break out there. They've been praying for it around the clock, every day since 1999 at the International House of Prayer.)

I will be the first one to admit some of it looks a little weird and kooky but if your mind can get past that, God's Love shines through and He is healing hearts and bodies and restoring lives.

More than anything, He is showing Himself as a Loving Father, Who like in the story of the prodical son, when He saw His son (or daughter) a far way off He ran down the road to meet him.

My prayer is that in spite of us imperfect religious people who are trying our best to be Christ-like, you will find the warm loving acceptance of the Father's Love, and of His Son Jesus Christ. And that your union with Him will sustain you and strengthen you through life's trials.

Posted by: Ed at December 13, 2009 12:44 PM


Vanessa, I am sorry for the loss of your daughter.


You wrote:
I am not for any abortion after 3 months but before that, it's just a medical procedure and you need to get over it.

I'm not sure I understand. At what point exactly does abortion change from medical procedure to killing?

At 2 months and 30 days, is abortion still just a medical procedure, but it becomes something more than that the next day? What biological changes occur in that day that makes the unborn change from non-human to human...or from non person to person (or whatever terminology you prefer) between 1 day before 3 months, and 3 months?

Posted by: bethany Author Profile Page at December 13, 2009 1:42 PM


And also, why don't you support abortion after 3 months? In your own words.

Posted by: bethany Author Profile Page at December 13, 2009 1:44 PM


Vanessa wrote to Jill that "Sometimes children should not be born" and that these children are "just a CHOICE and a learning experience" for later reflection. She goes on to say that "God's plan" is for children to be born to families that are prepared and "meant for" these children.

It's very sad if this is Vanessa's understanding of God. I would have a hard time trusting in a God that makes mistakes, as she seems to imply He does. But not only that, I would never be able to view myself as having any inherent worth, dignity, or fundamental human rights. Those things would be dependent on the benevolence of others who choose to bestow them on me. They wouldn't be mine to claim as a child of the Almighty who created me according to His plan and out of His immense love for me. Vanessa, I wish you peace and pray that He gives you the grace to accept the fullness of His love for you.

Posted by: Fed Up at December 13, 2009 2:08 PM


And also, why don't you support abortion after 3 months? In your own words.
Posted by: bethany Author Profile Page at December 13, 2009 1:44 PM

yes I wonder. WHAT changes after 3 months? Why 3 months and not 4 months or 6 months or 3 days before birth?
The only changes are ones of development.

Posted by: angel at December 13, 2009 3:22 PM


Venesa, I ask you to please keep an open mind as you read the following article. Then tell us what you thought. Florida Catholic | A botched abortion in mother’s own words
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December 13, 2009

RELATED:
Laid to rest: Baby Shanice
| DOCUMENT:
State of Florida Emergency Order

A botched abortion in mother’s own words

The mother of a baby ‘born alive’ and hidden on the roof of a Hialeah clinic tells her side of the story.

DANIEL SOÑÉ | FLORIDA CATHOLIC CORRESPONDENT

Posted: 02.06.09 | Last Update: 03.05.09

DANIEL SOÑÉ | FC
During an interview at her attorney’s office Jan. 28, Sycloria Williams reflects upon her experience at a Dade County abortion clinic. “They never said
anything to me that would make me think it was a baby. They never said anything like baby, fetus. Nothing.”

Recent Developments

Abortion clinic owner arrested

Posted: 03.05.09

More than two years after a botched abortion at A GYN. of Hialeah, the State Attorney’s Office has charged the clinic’s owner, Belkis Gonzalez, with the
unlicensed practice of medicine and tampering with evidence, second- and third-degree felonies respectively.

Gonzalez was arrested March 3 and released...
CONTINUED

MIAMI | On the morning of July 20, 2006, Sycloria Williams, age 18, went for an abortion – a late-term abortion that she says went terribly wrong.

Now 21, the Hollywood resident has filed a civil lawsuit accusing the clinic staff of delivering her child alive and killing the newborn girl by stuffing
her into a biohazard bag.

Williams spoke exclusively to the Florida Catholic Jan. 28. She said she is sharing her experience of what happened inside A GYN. of Hialeah Inc. because
people “need to know.”

A slight woman with dark, almond-shaped eyes, black hair and a bright smile, Williams said her friends call her “Slim” because of her build and propensity
to stay that way. Her favorite food is coconut shrimp.

Williams named her dead daughter Shanice Denise Osbourne, after her then-boyfriend, who accompanied her to the abortion clinic. “Shane looked over me,”
she said.

The baby’s biological father had left after she told him she was pregnant. “He just stopped calling, coming around,” Williams said. “He just disappeared,
you know.”

Originally, aborting the baby was not part of the plan. “We were reluctant at first, but as time passed it became more and more of an option,” Williams
said.

She had had a prior pregnancy at 17 that had ended in a miscarriage. She said she was unaware of how far along she was because she was not showing. “My
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ABORTION: DAY ONE

According to Williams and the allegations in the lawsuit, she found the clinic in the Yellow Pages. On July 17, 2006, she went to Miramar Woman Center Inc.
and was told the procedure would cost $1,200 – $400 more than she expected, because a sonogram had determined that the pregnancy was 23 weeks along, requiring
a more complicated late-term abortion.

Williams said that day she signed consent forms and was given some medications, all without meeting her doctor, Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique.

She met him two days later, July 19, at A Woman’s Care Inc. in North Miami. Williams said Renelique gave her a brief, undetailed description of the procedure.


“He said that it was a two-day procedure, to take my medicines, and come back the next day. He just said it like one, two, three,” Williams said.

She said she asked questions about the abortion and felt Renelique’s answers were to her satisfaction.

“I asked a lot of questions. I asked like how long it would take, who would be my doctor, how often have they done this, about the equipment, and what they
do with the baby,” she said.

“They said they freeze the body,” she added. “They freeze it,” she repeated in a whisper, lowering her head and eyes.

After their meeting, according to Williams, Renelique inserted laminaria sticks, thin rods of dried kelp that absorb moisture and slowly dilate the cervix.
According to the lawsuit, he also gave her a prescription for Cytotec, a brand of the drug misoprostol, to induce labor.

“He just to told me to come back the next day and that he would be there,” Williams said.

Shortly after leaving, Williams said she received a call from Natali Vergara, the daughter of clinic owner Belkis Gonzalez, telling her to go to their Hialeah
clinic, A GYN., instead of the North Miami one to complete the procedure.

ABORTION: DAY TWO

On the way to the clinic the next morning, her boyfriend at the time, Shane, “didn’t want to go through with it,” Williams recalled. She just wanted to
put it all behind her. “I was thinking ‘Come on. I want to get this done!’” she said.

When she arrived at the Hialeah clinic, she remembers having to knock on the glass doors because they were locked. “They weren’t open yet.”

The receptionist, a woman identified as Rosemary Chaneton in the lawsuit, let her in. Williams remembered that the clinic had white walls, tiled flooring
and inset fluorescent lights.

She said Chaneton gave her two white pills to take. “She didn’t know what the pills were but said she would ask. She said they would make me feel sick,”
Williams said. According to the lawsuit, the white pills were another dose of Cytotec, to induce labor.

She took the pills and waited in her car. “I wanted to wait in the car because I was feeling a little sick already and Shane was there.”

She waited in the car for Renelique to arrive. About 45 minutes after taking the two white pills, Williams said she felt sick with nausea and felt the baby
dropping “… like something was pushing it down.”

She went inside the clinic and exchanged her white T-shirt, blue jeans and flip-flops for a white hospital gown with little blue dots and “the back out.”
She was then taken to a patient waiting room in the back. Shane was prohibited from entering. The waiting room had eight reclining chairs, with the same
white walls, inset lights and tiled floor.

“The chairs looked comfortable,” Williams said. She sat in the one closest to the door of the waiting room.

“I was alone in that room for about three hours with Rosemary (the receptionist) and other people checking up on me every couple minutes,” Williams said.


As the Cytotec continued to work, Williams felt sicker and sicker. “I was nauseated and I had a temperature,” she said.

Although she was relatively calm, she was worried that Renelique had not arrived. “‘Where is the doctor?’ I was thinking.”

Williams remembers feeling worse as her labor intensified. She was curled up in a ball with the receptionist by her side. “I was supposed to be asleep for
all of this. I wasn’t supposed to see anything. Just wake up and it will all be over,” Williams said.

LIVE BIRTH CAUSES PANIC

What happened next haunts her to this day, Williams said. “It was like everything inside was coming out at once.”

Williams recalls grabbing the armrests of her chair and elevating herself to a squatting position, heels at the edges of her seat. The receptionist and
staff kept telling her to sit down and close her legs, but she couldn’t comply. “There was just no stopping it,” she said.

Williams said she delivered her baby, Shanice, onto the recliner almost immediately after squatting. First amniotic fluid spilled out, then the baby dropped
onto the cushion.

“When I saw that happen, I jumped off the chair and turned away, facing the wall,” Williams said.

Shanice’s body slid on the blood and amniotic fluids into the rear corner of the recliner because she was still attached to Williams by the umbilical cord.
“When I jumped off I pulled her like into the back of the chair because she was still attached,” she said.

According to Williams and the lawsuit, the receptionist and the staff began screaming and rushing, trying to figure out what to do. Williams said she stood
against the wall, glancing in horror at her newborn baby. “She wasn’t moving much. Twitching, gasping for air. She wasn’t crying though, just hissing.
Hissing sounds only.”

The sight of a fully formed baby was a complete surprise to Williams.

“I thought it would be a blob thing, but bigger, not a baby,” she said. “She looked like a Water Baby. Like those dolls you fill up with water. She was
really little, like this,” she said, holding her hands about 12 inches apart.

(Water Babies are sold in stores such as Toys ”R” Us. A product description on the Toys ”R” Us online store reads, “Water Babies are water-filled dolls
that replicate the warmth, weight and feel of a real baby.”)

According to the lawsuit and Williams’ recollection, Gonzalez, the clinic’s owner, who has no health care licensing, came into the waiting room, cut the
umbilical cord, and scooped Shanice’s body into a red biohazard bag, sealed it and tossed it into a trash can.

Williams said she was in shock. “It felt like a dream,” she said.

She recalls begging God for help and trying to listen to the staff. They only gave her Motrin for her pain because Renelique had not yet arrived. “Everyone
was panicking,” Williams said.

According to the lawsuit, the doctor arrived about 60 minutes after Williams delivered Shanice. No one called an ambulance. The lawsuit also states that
Renelique gave Williams a shot to put her to sleep: “She awoke after the procedure and was sent home still in complete shock.”

She said while Shane was driving her home, she told him, “I don’t think that baby was dead.” Answering almost as if he did not hear correctly, Shane asked,
“What do you mean? Are you sure?”

He asked several more questions which Williams said frustrated her because she was preoccupied with what happened to her at the clinic. “I was just focused
on trying to deal with it. I was scared,” she said.

POLICE FIND BODY

The next day, Hialeah homicide detectives, tipped off by an anonymous caller, arrived at her residence. “Oh, I know why you’re here,” she said she told
them. She said she spent four hours that night at the police station, and returned the following morning to file more reports and make more statements
to investigators.

According to the lawsuit, Hialeah police investigators executed a search warrant at the clinic on July 22, 2006. They found medical records but could not
locate the baby’s remains. Six days later, another anonymous caller told police the baby’s body had been hidden on the roof. Police responded but found
nothing. After a third tip and another search warrant, the police found the baby’s decomposing body in a cardboard box in a closet at the clinic. DNA linked
the remains to Williams.

Williams said in the immediate aftermath of the abortion, she did not have much time to digest what had happened. “I was very busy with everything.”

She does recall the most startling part: Her 23-week-old pregnancy looked like an actual baby.

“They never said anything to me that would make me think it was a baby. They never said anything like baby, fetus. Nothing. They only said things like ‘termination’
and ‘pregnancy’ and ‘termination of pregnancy,’” she said. “They cheated me because they didn’t tell me everything and the doctor wasn’t there.”

She said the staff’s reaction to the live birth made her feel disrespected. “They tried to make it look like this was my fault. Like I asked for this. …
They wouldn’t admit to me the whole time something went wrong,” she said. “I feel like they treated me like nothing, like a nobody.”

She said she has not sought professional counseling. “They’ll listen because that’s their job, but they won’t care. They won’t understand,” Williams said.


She said she and other post-abortive women need love, support and family. She also has changed her mind about abortion.

“No one should lose their life if you get pregnant,” she said. “If I got pregnant again I would have the baby.”

Her advice to women in unplanned or crisis pregnancies is to make abortion their last option, if at all. “I would tell them not to do it. I’ll say whatever
to make them have second thoughts so they don’t do it,” she said. “There is help out there.”

ABOUT THE CASE

Sycloria Williams is being represented by the Thomas More Society, with Miami attorney Tom Pennekamp handling the case. She is suing for wrongful death,
medical negligence and personal injury. The lawsuit alleges that Belkis Gonzalez and 12 other defendants – who jointly own or work for a conglomerate of
four south Florida abortion clinics – engaged in an unlicensed and unauthorized medical practice, botched abortions, evasive tactics, falsified medical
records and killing, hiding and disposing of a baby who was born alive.

Williams finally buried her daughter
, Shanice Denise Osbourne, last November at Our Lady Queen of Heaven Cemetery in Fort Lauderdale. The Miami-Dade County Medical Examiner had held onto the
body for nearly two years, concluding that the child was born alive, but would have died anyway due to extreme prematurity. The state attorney’s office
says the matter is still “under investigation.”

The Florida Catholic tried unsuccessfully to contact the clinic owner and others named in the lawsuit. Pennekamp said he has not been able to find all the
defendants in order to serve them with copies of the lawsuit.

A GYN. of Hialeah Inc., where the abortion took place, has closed down, but the court filing alleges it has been replaced by a new clinic a few miles away
that “shares the name of the previously mentioned corporation, only lacking a period after GYN.” A Miramar Woman Center Inc. and A Woman’s Care Inc. in
North Miami remain open.

Belkis Gonzalez and Siomara Senises, both defendants in this lawsuit as co-owners of A GYN. in Hialeah, were arrested for the unlicensed practice of medicine
in connection with a 2004 case in another Miramar clinic co-owned by the pair, according to newspaper articles and public records obtained by Williams’
attorney. That clinic was shut down in 2005. Two doctors who performed abortions at that clinic were found to be unlicensed; one was found guilty of practicing
“abortion medicine” without a license and the other fled to Trinidad and has arrest warrants pending in Miami-Dade and Broward counties. Gonzalez pleaded
“no contest” in that case and was adjudicated “guilty” and sentenced to five years probation Dec. 20, 2007. Under the terms of her probation agreement,
she is not allowed to directly or indirectly own, operate, conduct, manage or be employed or associated with any health care clinic, business or establishment.


On Feb. 16, 2007, the Florida Department of Health filed an order of “emergency restriction” against Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique’s medical license
because of the events that occurred at the Hialeah abortion clinic in July 2006. He is accused of medical malpractice and falsifying medical records and
is awaiting “a formal restriction or discipline of the license” by the department.

At a hearing Feb. 6, 2009, the Florida Department of Health revoked Dr. Pierre Jean–Jacque Renelique’s medical license — meaning he will not be able to
practice medicine in Florida — because of the events that occurred at the Hialeah abortion clinic in July 2006. He was found to have violated Florida statutes
by committing medical malpractice, delegating responsibility to unlicensed personnel and failing to keep an accurate medical record.

Editor’s Note: The name of the cemetery where Shanice Denise Osbourne is buried was incorrectly reported when this article was originally posted and was
corrected on 02.13.09.

 
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Posted by: RJ Sandefur at December 13, 2009 4:10 PM


I hope that V will read the story of Sycloria and baby Shanice with an open mind, and see the truth about what abortion really does to a woman. RJ Sandefur

Posted by: RJ Sandefur at December 13, 2009 4:18 PM


Vanessa,
If a child is not meant to be born, it will happen naturally, without being caused by human intervention. It is called a miscarriage.
My wife miscarried twins with our first pregnancy.
My sister-in-law also miscarried her first as did my wife's niece.
You need to stop attending your Hitler Youth meetings and find a real church.
There a lot of churches that claim to preach the word of God. Sadly, many have become far too infected with socialist politics.
I suspect like many on the left, you are only "pro-choice" when people make choices you approve of. Or worse, you may also believe is it "God's will" for the government to mandate the termination of all babies deemed defective. After all, it couldn't possibly be God's will for a child to live a life of dependence on taxpayers. Right?

Posted by: fishydude at December 13, 2009 8:47 PM


Marie...I grew up in a hypocritical church. I stopped going to church for years, then joined the Catholic church for a while until I realized I did not agree doctrinally with them. So instead of being a Kennedy and pouting and trying to change the Catholic Church, I returned to my roots and found a wonderful Bible believing, Bible preaching church. It is small with only 100 people (and half of them are children! Its so lively!) but I love this church for the very sweet nature of the people there. I thank God for leading me to this church. No church is perfect because it is made up of humans who aren't perfect. Satan loves to get in there and stir up strife and bitterness and see churches split and lose their effectiveness for God.

Vanessa...if you reject Christ, someday those words of your pastor trying to "save" you will haunt you for all eternity. You will be sorry you didn't listen. Christ offers eternal life to anyone who will place their trust in Him and Him alone. Your daughter is in heaven. If you want to see her again you better stop mocking and start thinking about your soul. But I'm a mom too and I am so very sorry for your hurt and loss. I can't imagine losing a child.

Posted by: Sydney M. at December 13, 2009 9:11 PM


Thank you Fishdude. Babies like I was in 1979. If that abortionist renelique had been my mom's doctor back then, well... I would not be here! Oh, I am not nor was I spon from my mother! I find that verry offencive! RJ

Posted by: RJ Sandefur at December 13, 2009 9:12 PM


Sydney,

Your "new" church sounds like just the kind of church I'm looking for! My parents found one that sounds similar to yours, and they just LOVE it!

I live in a large city, and most are too big for my taste. I truly believe that church is not just about hearing the Word of God, but also becoming a family with other church members. That's exactly what I want. I guess if I don't try, I'll never know. Although I'm not fond of New Year's resolutions, I'll try really hard to make it a point to find a GREAT bible-based church that I can attend weekly and start in the New Year. (by praying, of course, that God leads me there!) I guess I'll just have deal with a long drive to a smaller city nearby to find one.

Thank you for your post. It really made me think about going back. It's been weighing on my heart heavily lately!

:)

Posted by: Marie at December 13, 2009 9:29 PM


A Feuernal is not the place to discuss salvation.

Posted by: RJ Sandefur at December 13, 2009 9:46 PM



A Feuernal is not the place to discuss salvation.

Actually, a funeral is the PERFECT place to discuss salvation. We are reminded at funerals that tomorrow is not promised and we could face judgment at any time. We also long for the hope of a reunion with the loved one we lost. What better, more appropriate time is there to give someone the good news? Moreover, what if the bereaved die in a car wreck on the way home from the funeral and where not given the gospel because it's "not appropriate"?

Vanessa, I am sorry for the loss of your baby and pray that you will be reunited in Heaven. Supporting the murder of babies on earth, however, no matter how young, is not compatible with asking God to save you. Causing more death, more heartache through abortion does not heal you of your own, either. Jesus died so you may live- you just have to take Him up on His free gift to you.

Posted by: Jacqueline at December 13, 2009 10:11 PM


Jacqueline, I'd like to discuss this with you further. Feel free to email me at joltingjacksandefur@gmail.com RJ

Posted by: RJ Sandefur at December 13, 2009 10:24 PM


Jesus died so you may live- you just have to take Him up on His free gift to you.
Posted by: Jacqueline at December 13, 2009 10:11 PM

If Jesus hadn't died, we would not be alive?

Posted by: Hal at December 13, 2009 11:57 PM


If Jesus hadn't died, we would not be alive?

Not abundantly, and not eternally. Jesus' death saves us from Hell, for those that accept salvation offered through Jesus. Please, PLEASE take him up on it. Jesus didn't suffer and die for you to choose to suffer for eternity.

Posted by: Jacqueline at December 14, 2009 12:01 AM


Jesus didn't suffer and die for you to choose to suffer for eternity.
Posted by: Jacqueline at December 14, 2009 12:01 AM

Perhaps he did. I find it impossible to believe He couldn't have saved my soul in a much easier fashion if He wanted. Therefore, He did what He wanted to do; no longer my problem. Jesus, as God, had free will.

Posted by: Hal at December 14, 2009 9:13 AM


Jacqueline, Mabie the following story might help you in understanding what I'm trying to say. Jane was devoted to God and her church, but when her Fourteen year old daughter Seriah died from cancer, things changed The pastor came out to the home, and Jane had a hard time coping with the fact of her daughter's death. When she expressed her feelings to her pastor, her pastor responded, "Jane, You need to understand the God's ways are higher than our ways, and the fact that you are questioning God shows that your faith is weak... come to think of it, your faith has always been weak." At the Feuernal, the pastor invited people to come down front to be saved. Afword, when Jane tryed to discuss her daughter's death with her pastor, She was told to "turn it over to Jesus, n

Posted by: RJ Sandefur at December 14, 2009 9:32 AM


Posted by: Hal at December 14, 2009 9:13 AM
-------

Hal - you're a lawyer, so you should be versed in justice. (IIRC, you practice mostly civil law). The Hebrew word for sin means to "miss the mark". God must be "just" meaning he can't allow his own judgement to "miss the mark". How is it possible for God to forgive sin (unholiness) without someone paying the penalty?

For clarification, Christians believe Jesus paid that penalty, but God allows substitution - our penalty of death due to our sin exchanged for Jesus death. All we have to do is agree with that substitution. In exchange we get eternal life with our savior.

A lot of people believe they are "alive" meaning they are not dead, however it is only a matter of time until they are overcome. Though we walk the earth and believe we are free, I think the better analogy is that we are caged on earth (as prisoners of sin) and are waiting on death row.

In Genesis 2, God says the penalty for sin is mut-mut (forgive my transliterated Hebrew). That like morte-morte or death-death. How is it possible to be "really dead"? For Christians and some Orthodox Jews, the answer is 2 deaths - one which is physical and the other a spiritual one - existence without the immediate presence of God.

If you were preparing for a case, you'd gather as much evidence as you could to defend your client. In this case, of an impending physical death, the client is yourself.

Ultimately - the decision to do so is all yours.

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at December 14, 2009 10:02 AM


Hal,

Jacqueline is right on.

God reveals Himself through the Scriptures. If you really are interested in knowing why God instituted a system of blood sacrifices and why it was necessary that He send His Son to die for you so that you could have a close intimate relationship with Him, I would be happy to detail it for you.

He is an Awesome God and I find the subject fascinating, but if you're not really interested, I won't waste my time.

Posted by: Ed at December 14, 2009 10:20 AM


Perhaps he did. I find it impossible to believe He couldn't have saved my soul in a much easier fashion if He wanted. Therefore, He did what He wanted to do; no longer my problem. Jesus, as God, had free will.

It very much IS your problem if your soul is not saved. You can bicker about the mode God used to do it, or you can accept it. Even if you insist that Jesus didn't have to suffer and die to save you, that's what He did, and if you reject it because "He didn't have to do it the hard way" you end up in Hell all the same. I would argue that it is absolutely your problem.

Think of it this way. There is a gorge you need to cross in order to save your soul. While you would prefer it if God had erected a straight, solid bridge and given you a tram to take across it, the only way is a rickety bridge that requires you to watch your step. You have to crawl and balance yourself to cross. You can stay on one side and say, "I find it impossible to believe He couldn't have saved my soul in a much easier fashion if He wanted." Or you can take the bridge. I took the bridge. And while I understand God's justice so the method God used to save me is not foreign, I'd like to think myself smart enough that even if I didn't understand why that rickety bridge was the only way, that I would still cross that bridge, rather than staying behind and losing my soul.

So this "God chose to suffer and die to save me. That was His choice." that you use to reject salvation- Yes, it was His choice to save you. It's your choice to accept what He did for you. He, of His own free will, suffered and died for you. You, of your own free will, only have to LET HIM apply His justice to you and redeem you. You seriously have the good end of this deal, as you should have been nailed to that cross. I should have been nailed to that cross. I realize that and take His pardon. You need to, also.

Posted by: Jacqueline at December 14, 2009 11:10 AM


Hal, I'm curious: How should the God of all creation chosen to save your soul?

How do you think He should have done it? What could He do to save you that would meet your approval enough to accept it?

Posted by: Jacqueline at December 14, 2009 11:18 AM


By the way, I hope I didn't equate the road to salvation as a negative thing. Yes, it's narrow, but I love being on this bridge! There is so much joy!---and sorrow is spared by not being a part of so much evil and degradation.

So it's not, "Jesus is the only way and I don't like it but I'm not dumb enough to argue about it"- I LOVE the only way. While I regret that my sin meant that Jesus had to die to save me, I love my savior and this narrow road.

It's so much better this way. I've seen both sides, darkness and light. There is nothing more joyful than a relationship with Jesus and the hope of Heaven.

Posted by: Jacqueline at December 14, 2009 11:26 AM


Hal, as a lawyer, maybe this will make sense to you.

Imagine the son of a judge came to trial for a speeding ticket. Small town, the only judge available for pronouncing judgment was the father. When the son presented his side and the officer presented his side... the judge ruled his son guilty of the offense.

Then, quietly, he came around to the other side of the court and paid his son's fine in full.

The judge had to go with the penalty already set down in the law. It was obvious his son was guilty, the penalty, as set previously, needed to be paid in full.

In the Bible, the penalty set down for sin is death... "the wages of sin are death"... blood sacrifices of animals were held in atonement for sin, but they were not capable of fully paying the debt...

God, being the just judge, must rule that yes, we are guilty. Each and every one of us is guilty of sin. There is no possible defense, the penalty must be paid.

And so, He, the ever loving Father, has paid the penalty for us. He sent Jesus... His Son, but also, as the mystery of the Trinity teaches, an aspect of Himself. Jesus, fully human, fully God, paid the penalty of death on our behalf.

Merry Christmas to all of you (even you, Hal), friends here I consider a part of my family and heart.

Posted by: Elisabeth at December 14, 2009 11:42 AM


He couldn't have saved my soul in a much easier fashion if He wanted. Therefore, He did what He wanted to do
Posted by: Hal at December 14, 2009 9:13 AM

Yes, Hal, He could have accomplished it easier. The cruelty He permitted demonstrates how much He wanted to do this for you and how much He understands any suffering that you undergo during your life.

He was betrayed by one friend and abandoned by the others, endured an unfair trial, beaten, whipped with a flagellum that rips apart the flesh, ridiculed and mocked, publicly condemned, stripped, tortured, and executed. We don't have a God who understands our difficulties in an abstract way. We have a God who has experienced them.

He could have died in a manner that only satisfied the necessary blood sacrifice that Ed referred to. But He chose to go beyond that by paying the penalty in a way we can understand how much He desired to pay it and in a way we can know He understands betrayals and sufferings that befall us.

Merry Christmas, Hal. May the Christ Child be born in your heart :)

Posted by: Fed Up at December 14, 2009 1:13 PM


Jacqueline, Are you a nurse or something? RJ

Posted by: RJ Sandefur at December 14, 2009 2:06 PM


Oh and Hal?
Jesus was innocent. An innocent man suffered a horrifying, agonizing death FOR YOU! He died for Hal and all of mankind.

I would love to buy you The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel for Christmas. It may appeal to your lawyerness. :)

You can email me your address. Love you.

Posted by: carla Author Profile Page at December 14, 2009 3:06 PM


Hal...what kind of gift would mean more to you--say you were in the hospital and needed a kidney transplant. You had no money of your own (you couldn't find work as a lawyer and you hadn't a nickel left to your name or health insurance). A friend came to see you. He is a lawyer too. He still has money but he kindly pitches in a thousand bucks towards your very expensive dialysis, hospitalization and impending transplant (as soon as you can find a kidney!)

Very generous indeed. Then a friend comes to see you. He is someone you have been HORRIBLE to. You spread lies and rumors about him, you've beaten him up before. Then you just cut him out of your life and wouldn't even let him in your house when he came to visit and stood on your porch knocking on the door. But even despite how horrible you've been to him he still comes to the hospital to see you and you find out he has sold his mansion and all his goods to come up with the money to pay ALL your hospital bills AND all the other bills you owe like your mortgage, your credit cards, your car etc...

Not only that, but this friend who has sold EVERYTHING for you is willing to give his own body to save you. He is going to donate one of his kidneys to you. During the surgery he dies while you receive a kidney and live.

So what gift mean more? The friend who gave a little or the one you wouldn't even call your friend giving EVERYTHING including his life to save yours?

Thats what Christ did for me. And he did it for you too Hal.

I deserve hell. I am a sinner. I am unworthy of heaven and to bow before a holy, perfect God. And yet Jesus, before I ever knew Him, loved me. He gave up the glories of heaven to come to this awful earth. And while here He was reviled and spit on and mocked. Then He gave up His body and His life and allowed them to torture Him and nail Him to a cross where He languished for hours. Then He died. But He didn't stay dead! He rose from the grave. He ascended into heaven. And He offers HIS sacrifice on the cross as the FINAL PAYMENT for ALL OF MANKIND'S SINS. It is a gift Hal. All you need to do is accept it. It isn't rocket science but it does take faith.

Romans 5:7,8 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

But God commendeth His love towards us, in that while we were yet SINNERS, Christ died for us.

and my favorite

Romans 10:9-13
(previous verse says "we preach")

That if thou shalt confess with they mouth he Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the scripture saith "Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed (disappointed).

For whosoever calleth upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Posted by: Sydney M. at December 14, 2009 3:36 PM


sorry for the typos...should be "For if thou shalt confess with thy mouth THE Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

I dwell on the miracle of my salvation every time I lose my temper or act in an unloving way that even though I am sinful and so unlovable, Christ gave it all for ME! I don't want anyone to die and go to hell but even if Hal or any other mocks it (too bad for them) I still marvel at the sweetness of God's mercy towards me!!!!! My life has been very difficult at times, but I always see God's mercy towards me, and how He provides and loves me. God is so good!!!!!

Posted by: Sydney M. at December 14, 2009 3:39 PM


RJ-

Where'd you get that idea? I'm flattered :) My mother is a nurse. I'm a statistician in social services (i.e. a social worker that does math). I'd love to be a nurse, but lack several necessary qualities.

There is a such thing as tact when it comes to funerals. I heard a disturbing homily last night of two unmarried people that were not a couple, but were both morning the loss of their baby. Mom had moved in with another man (not the father of the child and not her husband) and their lives were pretty poorly lived- and the priest said he wondered if they were upset just about the loss of the baby or about the sin in their lives. He didn't say anything to the mourning parents (thankfully) because there is a time to address certain things, but the fact that it distracted him so when he was called not to rebuke but to comfort at that time disturbed me. However, I think altar calls at funerals are very pertinent when done correctly.

Posted by: Jacqueline at December 14, 2009 4:49 PM


I should know better than to pick a fight and go to work..... wow, what a response. And all from people who truly care about my soul. It would be unkind to respond with offensive or blasphemous comments, so I shall not do that. You guy are okay. I don't accept any of what you're saying, but do accept and appreciate the devotion you feel and the love you express.

I know some of you think I'm here searching for something, but I'm really not. I'll try to restrain my more offensive tendencies and let you all enjoy the season.

Posted by: Hal at December 14, 2009 6:32 PM


Lovers of Christ:

I came across this scripture the other day and found it totally applicable to Hal. Here it is:

"2 Timothy 2:20-27

20In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

22Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."

God is awesome and the sovereign over all. Peace.

Posted by: Phil Schembri is Hisman at December 14, 2009 8:53 PM


Your words made me think you were a nurse! I know you might think this is weard, but I have a character whose name is Jacqueline Sutton. She is a police officer, who lives in Orlando Florida, who has a boyfriend named Luis who is a minister. I created Jacqueline long before I began posting here, about four years ago... She's big in that she's a tall person, 6-1. RJ

Posted by: RJ Sandefur at December 14, 2009 9:15 PM


Jesus didn't suffer and die for you to choose to suffer for eternity.
Posted by: Jacqueline at December 14, 2009 12:01 AM

Perhaps he did. I find it impossible to believe He couldn't have saved my soul in a much easier fashion if He wanted. Therefore, He did what He wanted to do; no longer my problem. Jesus, as God, had free will.
Posted by: Hal at December 14, 2009 9:13 AM

Not a chance, Hal. God died so that you might live forever in Heaven.
If go to Hell, God will not be happy. :(

Posted by: angel at December 14, 2009 9:30 PM


Carla, Who writes that book you were suggesting to Hal? I thought I heard the book title from somewhere else before, and for those who might be wondering, RJ stands for Robert James. RJ

Posted by: RJ Sandefur at December 14, 2009 9:45 PM


Posted by: Hal at December 14, 2009 6:32 PM
------

Hal - I forgot to mention this earlier - Happy Hanukkah! May the light of the season kindle your spirit!

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at December 14, 2009 9:57 PM


RJ, I think it's Lee Strobel? Carla, correct me if I'm wrong.

Jacqueline, what necessary qualities for being a nurse do you lack?? As a nurse myself, I bet you'd make a great one.

Posted by: Elisabeth at December 14, 2009 10:38 PM


Thanks Chris. Did you know I was Jewish (ethnically)?

Posted by: Hal at December 14, 2009 10:39 PM


You're sweet, Elizabeth. I can't put my finger on any specific characteristic. Nurses are just a caliber of people I don't count myself among. It's likely because my mother is that an amazing, heroic and nurturing person that I grew up watching- She'd vaccinate thousands of people in Third World countries on her time off and pull people from the rubble of hurricanes- all with kids in tow that she managed to still rock to sleep if we'd have a nightmare. That's so awesome I think.

I'm certainly content to be what I am, but I admire you guys a lot.

Posted by: Jacqueline at December 14, 2009 10:49 PM


Thanks Chris. Did you know I was Jewish (ethnically)?

Posted by: Hal at December 14, 2009 10:39 PM
------

Yes - I recalled that from some time last year from a conversation you had with Bobby B.

Posted by: Chris Arsenault Author Profile Page at December 14, 2009 11:19 PM


I think a good bible for V to Read is the Holman. Put out by the SBC. Jacqueline, The Lord is using you in an amaising way... You've got a good grasp on the scriptures. RJ

Posted by: RJ Sandefur at December 15, 2009 9:27 AM


Thanks Chris. Did you know I was Jewish (ethnically)?

Posted by: Hal at December 14, 2009 10:39 PM
------

Me too! The baby has been LOVING the Hanukkah lights. And the kids are loving the new book on the Maccabees and Antiochus I got them for this year. Do you celebrate the holiday?

Posted by: Elisabeth at December 15, 2009 7:29 PM


ROFLMAO... you sound like my daughter. And I'm sure your mother feels about you like I do about her... that it's all there inside her... and you, just waiting for a reason to come out.

Posted by: Elisabeth at December 15, 2009 7:51 PM


Thanks, Elizabeth! I'm content transferring euthanasia patients and rescuing babies from abortion. It's not quite as badass as my mom running in front of traffic to pull an injured kid to safety, but it's what I'm made to do. You two were meant for nursing, and I was meant for this. I can admire you all, but I wouldn't trade. :)

Posted by: Jacqueline at December 15, 2009 8:02 PM


Hey everyone, if you love history and want to see if the scriptures hold up to it regarding the birth of Christ (and if you love science too!) then check out www.Bethlehemstar.net

It is really really neat. Hal might like it too, it talks a lot about Jewish history and its presented by a LAWYER.

Posted by: Sydney M. at December 15, 2009 9:03 PM


Me too! The baby has been LOVING the Hanukkah lights. And the kids are loving the new book on the Maccabees and Antiochus I got them for this year. Do you celebrate the holiday?
Posted by: Elisabeth at December 15, 2009 7:29 PM

Well, you have to understand my mother is a non practicing Lutheran, my father a non practicing Jew, raised by non practicing Jews. I'm not "Jewish" at all by most standards (as I understand them) There isn't much tradition left in the family. Some years we pull out the menorah and light the candles, but not every year. We don't do anything religious about it.

Posted by: Hal at December 15, 2009 9:09 PM


Hal:

So you're Jewish.

Well, even more reason to believe in Yahweh and Emmanuel.

Posted by: Phil Schembri is Hisman at December 15, 2009 10:52 PM


Hal,
I grew up Lutheran. :) Ran as fast and as far as I could after confirmation. Of course you cannot run from God. Never heard of having a personal relationship with Jesus until the age of 26.

I hope you can read and feel others love for you and your soul.

Love wins.

Posted by: carla Author Profile Page at December 16, 2009 7:55 AM


Phil, I don't know if I'm Jewish or not. The Jewish religion doesn't consider me so, since my mother was not Jewish. I don't consider myself Jewish either. I suppose the accurate thing to say is I have some Jewishness in my background, along with Scottish, Irish, a few others.

Posted by: Hal at December 16, 2009 9:25 AM


Hal,

Glad you're restraining those tendencies out of respect. It's a dying art, and much appreciated.

"Jesus didn't suffer and die for you to choose to suffer for eternity.
Posted by: Jacqueline at December 14, 2009 12:01 AM

Perhaps he did. I find it impossible to believe He couldn't have saved my soul in a much easier fashion if He wanted. Therefore, He did what He wanted to do; no longer my problem. Jesus, as God, had free will."

How is Jesus' death salvific?

Relationships are two way streets, no? If I offend another, THEY set the terms for reconciliation, not me. Pride and arrogance cause our separation from God. Were we to say how, when, where we get to reconcile, on OUR terms, would be to compound the tragedy by treating God as completely irrelevant.

Imagine a criminal justice system that allows the criminal to set the terms of retributive justice.

As the offended, as God's perfect Love and prefect Majesty have been offended, only God can be the propitiative sacrifice and atonement. Were we to bear the just burden for having offended God's perfect majesty, then as the Psalmist said,

"Lord, if you should mark our guilt, who would survive?"

So God made Himself the perfect sacrificial offering for sin. Seriously Hal, do you see any other way out that satisfies the dual requirements of Perfect Justice and Perfect Love?

Posted by: Gerard Nadal at December 16, 2009 6:33 PM


I don't know what "justice" is. (and I've been wandering the "halls of justice" for over twenty years) I do know what mercy, kindness, and love are. Saying "worship me as your God or spend eternity in Hell" is not a very loving thing to do. Sounds petty and small to me. Guess we see things differently. I'm okay with that. You float your boat and I'll float mine.

Merry Christmas


Posted by: Hal at December 16, 2009 9:06 PM


I don't know what "justice" is. (and I've been wandering the "halls of justice" for over twenty years)

Justice the righting of wrongs. I take what is yours and justice is either your goods being returned to you or my being punished to compensate for wronging you, as it would be unjust for me to persist in enjoying something at your expense.

I do know what mercy, kindness, and love are.

Then you know there is nothing loving about injustice, especially not to the victim. Thank of your children. If one child took a toy that belonged to the other and you let them persist in stealing and enjoying the ill-gotten gain, how loving is that toward your other child. That's not loving nor kind. You might be merciful to the child that took the toy and spare her a time out in exchange for her apology and returning the toy, but allowing her to persist in harming another isn't loving or kind.

Saying "worship me as your God or spend eternity in Hell" is not a very loving thing to do.

That's not what He's saying. He IS God and an eternity in Hell is the just punishment for the wrongs you and I have done. But instead of letting us spend an eternity there, He paid the penalty for my wrongs to save me from Hell. That's worthy of worship!

So in no way is God threatening you with Hell. You're going there by default for wrongs you've done. All He is doing is offered to save you at the cost of enduring torture and death. All you have to do is take his offer.

Moreover, have you ever sent your child away for disrespecting or yelling at you or their mother? Is that petty or small? No, because you're the parent and they are the child, and you are deserving of respect for that reason. Likewise, even if God hadn't saved me from Hell, He is God and I'm not.

Guess we see things differently. I'm okay with that. You float your boat and I'll float mine.

I'm not okay with that, even though I am ultimately going to be okay. I'm not okay with you rejecting salvation and paying for sins that God suffered and died to pay for on your behalf. Now, I can not be okay with it all day long and that isn't going to change anything, but I want you to know that where you'll spend eternity is not a cavalier, "tomato, tomahto" affair.

Posted by: Jacqueline at December 17, 2009 12:08 AM


"worship me as your God or spend eternity in Hell" is not a very loving thing to do. Sounds petty and small to me.

Hi, Hal. If God honors your free will in life, would you have Him dishonor it at death? If you want nothing to do with Him, would you have Him drag you against your will into His presence for eternity? How would heaven be bliss for you if you were eternally united to One you didn't want to be with?

Shalom :)

Posted by: Fed Up at December 17, 2009 1:07 AM


Imagine you are trapped in a burning building. You can't find your way out and you are facing death. A fireman suddenly breaks through a wall and sees you and says "Hold on to me! I will get you out of here!"

Now imagine you stood there and said "So I have to trust you to save me or I will burn here? Who do you think you are? why do I have to trust you? I can save myself!"

How stupid would that be? So you reject your saviour and burn to death in the building.

That is analogy is exactly like salvation Hal. God DOESN'T send anyone to hell. People send themselves with their sin and their PRIDE. Hell was created for Satan and his angels NOT for people. But people chose sin. Heaven would not be heaven if God allowed sin into it. If God allowed you or me into heaven without being cleansed by the blood of Christ then it wouldn't be heaven anymore.

But God sent His Son Jesus to die an excruciating death that I'm sure you in your comfortable life couldn't imagine dying. He was beaten to the point that the Bible says He wasn't recognizable as a human being. Chunks of flesh were torn out of His back by the whips. A crown of thorns were beaten onto His head. He was swollen and drenched in blood. Then huge nails were hammered into His hands near the wrists and huge nails were hammered through the bones of His feet. He hung there thirsty and slowly suffocating for six hours. And He did it for love of YOU Hal. Because He DIDN'T want you to pay for your own sin by suffering FOREVER in hell.

Jesus hasn't forced you to worship Him. He hasn't forced you to do anything. He will allow you to make your choice. But His heart breaks for you because He loves you and He calls softly to your heart to receive Him. But because our God is just He will allow you to reject His Son if you so choose and by your own choice spend an eternity in the lake of fire.

Posted by: Sydney M at December 17, 2009 8:37 AM


"God DOESN'T send anyone to hell. People send themselves with their sin and their PRIDE"

according to rules that this God made. He can't reject responsibility for sending me to Hell if He created the rules by which I'm sent there. He could have created a universe for which the price of sin was a week without TV. He decided that eternity in a ocean of flames sounded like more fun. I'm not going to worship that.

Posted by: Hal at December 17, 2009 10:03 AM


according to rules that this God made. He can't reject responsibility for sending me to Hell if He created the rules by which I'm sent there.

So every legislature that creates a law that imprisons rapists are responsible when rapists go to prison? Not the one who committed the rape?What if a rapist rejects probation and chooses prison for his crime- Are those that created the law to protect the innocent and promote justice still responsible for that rapists' imprisonment? Did he not choose, first in raping and then in rejecting probation, to go to jail? So who is responsible here?

Yes, God in his goodness gave us laws to protect us/others and there are consequences when these laws are broken. But then, God did our time to offer us a way out! Therefore, if we still choose to take the punishment by first breaking the law and then denying God's clemency, it's doubley our responsibility for where we end up. Nobody but us.

He could have created a universe for which the price of sin was a week without TV.

Is that justice? Is that appropriate for all the evil we've done in our lives? I doubt a week without TV counts as a punishment in your household for failing a spelling test. Should every child abuser, murderer and theif before judges right now or incarcerated just get a week without TV? I dare you to tell a grieving mother whose child was molested and then murdered by a sex offender who in your justice system, would go free, "It's okay. He has to go a WHOLE week without an TV." Doesn't that insult your sense of justice?

He decided that eternity in a ocean of flames sounded like more fun.

No, in fact, He hates it so much that He suffered scouraging and crucifixion so no one would ever have to go there. Hell was created for those angels that did not want to be in the presence of God. The absence of God is Hell. Hell was never intended to be a place where people end up, but people still choose to go there, much like you are saying you'd choose to go there right now.

Did you know that the word excruciating came from crucify, since crucifixion is considered the most pain a person can endure? He did that because He doesn't want anyone to go to Hell. Justice is served through Jesus' sacrifice and no one will ever have to go to Hell- unless they choose to.

I'm not going to worship that.

Would you worship a God cares for his creations so little that He has no interest in protecting them? I worship a God that loves me enough to protect me and so much so that, while I am guilty and He is innocent, He suffered and died so I would be spared my punishment and can spend eternity with him.

Once again, no one ever has to go to Hell. God does not want anyone to go to Hell, but by rejecting salvation, you choose to. The irony also is, by accepting Jesus, you aren't just spared Hell, you're graced with paradise. So not only does God not give us the Hell we deserve, He gives us the Heaven we don't deserve.

I AM going to worship that!

Posted by: Jacqueline at December 17, 2009 12:19 PM


Yes, God in his goodness gave us laws to protect us/others and there are consequences when these laws are broken.

I think that Hal's point is that, thinking more broadly, "God in his goodness" gave us laws to protect us/others from the very world God created. Not so much a "why is there evil" thing because yada yada yada evil is not created by god but it is merely the absence of god, whatever. But rather that your analogy is false, because the law just enforces the fact that rape is wrong (wrongness of rape, and the origins thereof, not part of this discussion) - whereas God is not merely the enforcer of salvation-law, unless he is a police officer rather than the creator of everything. Refusing God's gift would not be wrong had God not created a world in which refusing his gift is wrong - not so of rape, ie raping is only wrong because we have created a legal framework in which rape is wrong.

It's like the circular reasoning of the "abortion is LEGAL, rape is ILLEGAL" argument when the rape/abortion analogy is brought up. Well yes, rape is illegal, but that is not why it is wrong - rather, that it is wrong is why it's illegal. The legal system does not create justice. It enforces it. God, allegedly, is both the creator and enforcer of justice.

Posted by: Alexandra at December 17, 2009 12:52 PM


Alexandra,

I could go into deeper theological talk about how God created the world perfectly and man's choice to sin brought the evil into it that demands justice (the Fall of Adam), but let's deal more with the character of God. Let's remember that I'm severely limited in my ability to explain this, but bear with me.

God invented everything and he did so with a perfect order. That order is called natural law. People inhale oxygen and release carbon dioxide. Plants receive carbon dioxide and release oxygen. Fire gives warmth and cooks food- water nourishes our bodies, cleans us and is fun swim in...People are quick to complain about being burned on the stove or getting wet in the rain and bemoan, "Couldn't have God made fire that doesn't burn ME or water that only gets me wet when I want it to? Apparently God WANTS me to burn or be miserable." So God, who created a world so complex we can't understand it- We humans can't make a single-celled organism- we are quick to blame God for how He made things. Could we have invented things better? The irony is that the world was perfect, natural law is perfect- humans violate it. We could argue that the sun, which gives us warmth and food and vitamin D is horrible because it burns our skin when we're in it too long, but the nature of the sun will not change to only gives us what we want from it and not sunburn. Only a fool would argue with the sun. The rest of us wear SPF40 or limit our exposure.

God, allegedly, is both the creator and enforcer of justice.

Who better to enforce justice than the only capable of understanding it? I fail to see how the role of creating laws to protect people and enforcing those laws are at odds. Should it be my mom that created the "no hitting your sister" law in my household and Dad that enforces it? Mom OR Dad, creator, guardian and protector of both daughters by virtue of that role have every right to make rules to protect us and enforce those rules.

This idea of a teen yelling at his mother who is waiting up for him "You can't punish me for breaking my curfew! You're the one who set my curfew! If you'd have made it 2:00 instead of 12:00, I'd not be grounded!" Yes, mom could have made the rule 2:00 am, but she knows that bars close at 1:00 and a large volume of intoxicated people try to drive and she doesn't want her 16-year-old out in that. Or maybe, she has to get up early to work to clothe/feed/shelter his ungrateful butt and does not want to stay up past midnight. The reasons don't matter so much, but the truth is and will always be that parents make rules to protect their children. Our Heavenly Father did the same thing, so I tend not to bicker with Him about it.

Moreover, the enforcement of justice is a GOOD thing. The imprisonment of rapists is a GOOD thing. The enforcement of justice is not bad because the perpetrator doesn't enjoy it.

I think that Hal's point is that, thinking more broadly, "God in his goodness" gave us laws to protect us/others from the very world God created.

It's a good world. Simply because good things are misued and harm us or others doesn't make them bad. My parents wouldn't deny me a bike for fun and exercise because I could run over people with it. I am simply told not to run over people with it, and if I do, it's taken away and I am punished. God doesn't deny us good food because glutons have too much and get sick or deny us sunlight because someone will tan for too long and end up in pain- instead, like a good parent, he warns us of dangers and we can be foolish and ignore Him or heed His warning. But, for the sake of others, He can't allow the foolish to continue in wickedness unchecked.

You can argue with the sun about how it should only tan you and not burn you -OR- you can limit your exposure to the sun.

You can argue with God about how He shouldn't have created a sun that can burn you or anything that can be misused for evil -OR- you can heed his warnings about how to only get the intended good from things and not the bad.

More importantly, you can argue with God about how He shouldn't have to save you because He could have done things another way and suffer in eternity -OR- you can let him save you.

Suppose you disagree with God's natural and moral laws and wrongly claim they are unjust, you're still subjected to them.

Think of it this way:

Disagreeing that overeating cause obesity won't keep you thin if you overeat. Disagreeing with your parent about curfew time won't keep you from being grounded if you break it. Disagreeing with God about eternal judgement won't save you.


Seeking to understand why things are as they are is one thing, disagreeing with a principle you can't change at the expense of your body and soul would be foolish. I fought God on all this for a year before I gave up, only to learn that everything I didn't understand was a consequence of His love for me, even Hell. Perhaps people have to take the first solely self-interested step in letting God save them before they get to that part.

Posted by: Jacqueline at December 17, 2009 1:44 PM


I fail to see how the role of creating laws to protect people and enforcing those laws are at odds.

I'm sorry you thought that was my point; it wasn't at all. I was just illustrating that the metaphor between sin being punished with hell, and rape being punished with jail, is incorrect; because the police officer is the enforcer and god is both the creator and enforcer. I have no problem with someone creating and enforcing the rules - but if someone creates the rules AND THEN, when he enforces them, you turn around and say, "What do you expect him to do? Rules are rules, he's just enforcing them," well, that's a different story.

I would rather not get into the rest of it right now - have done it endlessly already (I particularly enjoy Kreeft's Handbook of Christian Apologetics) but of course the argument of someone with Hal's point of view is likely to be not, "God could have created a world in which I did not need to be saved, rather than a world in which I was doomed to hell unless I consented to being saved; therefore I will not worship God" but rather to be, "It is unlikely that an omnipotent god who is so loving that he would die to save mankind would have simply not just created a world in which he did not need to die to save mankind; ergo the Christian concept of god is incorrect." It is less often an act of refusing to accept god's terms, and more often of refusing to accept that god would have set those terms in the first place.

Of course I'm not Hal, I don't even know Hal, etc. So I don't want to speak for him.

Posted by: Alexandra at December 17, 2009 1:55 PM


That's basically what I'm saying, although I don't give it nearly as much thought as you guys. It seems strange to me that refusing to accept Jesus as my savior is a sin as deserving eternity in Hell as murder and rape. It's a bizarre system. I don't see any reason to take that leap of faith. If I were going to believe in a God, I would have as much right to design the theocracy of that God as you guys do. My God would save Hell for the really bad guys.

I'll stop now also. Have a great day.

Posted by: hgw@Hotmail.com at December 17, 2009 2:45 PM


It seems strange to me that refusing to accept Jesus as my savior is a sin as deserving eternity in Hell as murder and rape.

You aren't understanding- it's not your refusing Jesus' rescue that condemns you, it's your sin. You've condemned yourself and you can accept pardon or reject it. Basically, you make your own bed that you would lie in by default if Jesus didn't offer to save you. You are not perfect. And while you may never rape anyone, you are still guilty of other forms of wickedness and evil that a perfect God can not keep company with, so He redeems you. If you let Him.

My God would save Hell for the really bad guys.

What's your standard? What qualifies as "really bad?" Think of it this way: Imagine I hold up a glass of pure water and a dropper of pig urine and ask "how much of this pig urine would I have to put in this glass to get you to no longer want to drink it?" The whole dropper's worth? Two drops? A half a drop? I'd bet the answer you'd give is that any amount of pig urine, no matter how little would keep you from drinking that water. Think of sin like pig urine: Any amount, big or little, is too much for God.

Another example would be an apartment complex that won't allow felons. A felon complaining that he only was guilty of assault, NOT murder doesn't change the fact that any felony is enough to not let him into your community. Any sin is enough to keep you from Heaven and if you can't get into Heaven, that only leaves Hell.

So again, what counts as "really bad?" A house that only smells of both cat urine and not dog feces is really bad but a house that only smells of cat urine is okay? A petty theif is okay but a child molester is really bad? What is your standard?

God's standard is perfection and if we can't meet that on our own, He meets it for us!

Posted by: Jacqueline at December 17, 2009 4:03 PM


I understand now, but I'll address certain things anyway. Not that you haven't heard these responses, Alexandra, but that others may have not:

God could have created a world in which I did not need to be saved, rather than a world in which I was doomed to hell unless I consented to being saved; therefore I will not worship God

In a world where you would not need to be saved, you'd have no free will. If you have no free will, you're a robot. Robots can not love. Love is a act that can only come of free will and in order to love God, we must have it. God desires our love and freedom so much that he gave us free will knowing the evil we'd do with it and that He's have to suffer and die to save us from those consequences. So God's world that he created as it is presents the only way for a person to be a person. I can program a voice program to say "I love you, Jacqueline" all day long and tht voice program would never wrong me, but I'll take my friends and family and their real love in spite of the fact that they hurt and fail me at times. And if I gave my free will in order to never hurt or fail them, I couldn't love them, either.

"It is unlikely that an omnipotent god who is so loving that he would die to save mankind would have simply not just created a world in which he did not need to die to save mankind

Jesus did not WANT to die to save mankind. He asked God, if there was another way, for a way around crucifixion. But there wasn't, so Jesus chose to endure it anyway in exchange for our salvations. Certainly, if there was another way, a way to create a world where we could be free and not need a savior, He would have done so. This is hard to grasp but THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. And those that complain that God should have done things differently are incapable of explaining how He could have done it, given that there is no other way.

Posted by: Jacqueline at December 17, 2009 4:17 PM


"Certainly, if there was another way, a way to create a world where we could be free and not need a savior, He would have done so"

well, I guess that's the crux of what we're debating. I'm not so sure he would have. Hence, not the great Guy everyone says He is. Anyway, I'm not impressed.

Posted by: Hal at December 17, 2009 4:58 PM


well, I guess that's the crux of what we're debating. I'm not so sure he would have.

So you think that he wanted to suffer and die, since he could have created a world where He wouldn't need to? Or are you saying that His self-worth comes from being our Savior, in that being the God of the universe just isn't enough?

Hence, not the great Guy everyone says He is.

I'm confused- so dying to save us unnecessarily would make Him a bad guy? Or the fact that He died to bring glory to Himself means He's a bad guy. Clarify.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, let's suppose you are right and God is not a great guy. Let's suppose He is an attention-hungry tyrant that died unnecessarily in order to be worshipped as a hero. How does that have any bearing on your eternal state? You can not accept salvation out of the principle that "God's not nice" and burn in a lake of sulfur in a "cut-off-nose-to-spite-face" fashion, or you can accept the rescue whether or not you like the rescuer. If I were drowning and my worst enemy tossed me a life jacket, I would take it. After all, it doesn't hurt my enemy for me to suffer, does it?

Anyway, I'm not impressed.

Salvation aside, I sure am. Creation impresses me. The uniqueness of my fingerprint fascinates me. I certainly am not capable of creating anything rivaling what God made from nothing, even if He gave me the materials to do it. Suppose God didn't love me or offer to save me, I would still have to give me credit for his awesome power.

Posted by: Jacqueline Christine Harvey at December 17, 2009 5:34 PM


Jacqueline,

We just don't see it the same way. I'm not going to change your mind, you're not going to change mine. Have a Merry Christmas.

Posted by: Hal at December 18, 2009 2:21 PM


We just don't see it the same way. I'm not going to change your mind, you're not going to change mine. Have a Merry Christmas.

Maybe not- but then again just ten years ago I made the same arguments you are making now, and my mind (moreso my heart) DID change. So I'm holding out hope yours does too- not for the sake of your soul, but the joy in life that comes with knowing Jesus.

Have a merry Christmas, too!

Posted by: Jacqueline Christine Harvey at December 18, 2009 2:51 PM