Yes I was outside of an abortion clinic (planned parenthoood) in the city I live in when a woman drove up in her car and was chewing out my husband for our 4 year old daughter having to see the graphic abortion pictures and how it's evil of us to subject her to these pictures. I politely said "excuse me are you pro-choice?". She said "yes I believe in a woman's right to choose." I said, "oh so you think it's ok to chop up an unborn baby but you think it's bad for my already born daughter to see the photos of what you think is ok?!" She drove off speechless and very infuriarated over my comments.

I'm sorry, but am I living in some freaky parallel universe? Children understand far better than we sometimes that KILLING OTHER CHILDREN IS WRONG. No need to discuss it, research it, interview folks about it. They get it from a very young age. How come we get to be adults and murder of the innocent doesn't seem so evil anymore?

Good for you, Joselyn! Thank You for teaching your daughter to "fight the good fight". :) Maybe you also gave that woman something to go home and think about.

Um, what's so wrong/strange about strapping a child to your body via a baby carrier? It's just a way to help you hold your child and keep them close to you while you go about your business. And puh-lease... parents, no matter what they believe, pass those beliefs onto their children (whether or not their children continue in those beliefs when they get older depends, of course). I'm with you, Jill... can't get over the irony of it all... they're so worried about these children that are NOT being harmed, yet they could care less and aid in the brutal death of the children in their mothers' wombs.

Ummm... strap them onto their bodies as if they are bombs??? They're called baby carriers/slings and millions of moms & dads use them simply to carry their child! It keeps the baby safe, warm and close to the parent, and allows the parent better freedom of movement. Come on Ashley, you can do better than that!

My kids wanted to go to the protests at the Aurora PP. My 13 year old son was so adamant about abortion being wrong he carried as many signs as he possibly could. He gets very teary eyed every time we have to drive by the mill and always says an Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be for the moms so they wont kill their babies.

'Wenches' thinks children of pro-life parents will grow up angry??? How angry does she think it makes a child of pro-'choice' parents when the child grows up and finds out how many siblings he/she would have had if not for 'pro-choice' parents? Seems like the anger is coming from being pro-choice. *If pro-choicers are so proud of what they are, why don't they just say "I'm pro- baby-killing" ?*

I would never get An Abortion , I think its wrong . Then again , I wouldn't want my 3 yr old to see those images either . There are things Id like to keep her from knowing about until the right time , And I'm sorry but 3 is not the Age where she should see aborted babies. You all can get angry at that but its Just my opinion . But I still believe Abortion is wrong and more people need to become aware that its not a simple procedure but murder , but hovering someone in the street with a video camera is a bit extreme dont ya think ?

Sorry, I want to be pro-life for a number of reasons. Then every time I want to side with you people, you reveal yourself to be dangerously extremist. Not one person would say it's wrong to let your kid get arrested outside an abortion clinic. If you want to prove a point by getting arrested, stop being a coward and do it yourself. Don't send your small child to do your dirty work just because you know the charges against a kid will be dropped. That's child abuse.

Oh, there was this article yesterday. Documentary filmmakers caught CPC staff on camera telling women that their boyfriends would stop beating them if they had his baby. How could someone be that horrifically irresponsible--especially since the #1 cause of death for pregnant women is murder by an abusive boyfriend?

Then they talked a woman out of abortion by promising her rent money, food, and clothing. Then when she goes to the CPC, all they give her is a stuffed animal.

http://tinyurl.com/27eqp5l

Revolting.

Ashley,
If you truly believe that life begins at conception and that life should be protected then be prolife! Fight the good fight! Nobody here is stopping you but you. Or do you need to blame "some extremists" for not embracing the truth you have come to know?

Do all prochoicers believe the exact same things?? Do you all share one brain??

Ashley,
Try asking specific questions to specific posters. Instead if insinuating that we all think alike.

Like this
Hey Carla would you bring your child to an abortion clinic to be arrested?

Ashley, your example was from 1992, a different era, the rescue years. Come on.

I Agree with you . Parents making their children doing their dirty work .
Or Bullying the pregnant woman into Keeping a child . Let these people figure it out when they walk in that the child they are carrying Can be adopted rather than murdered. Bullying and Guiltily them with your children doesn't make things any different , they will go someone else . So why not Talk to them rather than saying Oh my baby was left to die the day after he was born . Its all wrong !! Your using your children as bait !

Sorry Ashley, either you believe unborn children deserve the right to be born or you don't. It doesn't matter if you agree with everyone here on every issue or not. That is a cop-out. I don't agree with many people here on different issues (gay marriage, circumcision etc...) but that doesn't make me go "Well now I'm not pro-life anymore!"

You may not think children should be at rallies but that doesn't change how you feel on ABORTION.

I actually agree maybe children shouldn't be at rallies just because how crazy and EXTREME you pro-choicers are! I mean, you're the ones who try to run us over with cars and bring guns and shoot us for holding signs. Who is violent and extreme? Def you guys. Which is not surprising, you wanna kill babies who do nothing but grow in their mommies' wombs so of course you want to maim and kill those of us who piss you off.

That's funny, because the only pro-lifer ever shot or attacked was that one guy in Michigan, and they never concluded it had much to do with politics. The shooter also killed another person for no apparent reason. And how many arrests and murders of abortion doctors do you guys have under your belts?

Still waiting for someone to comment on CPCs telling women their boyfriends won't abuse them anymore if they have a baby. Any lie that works, right?

Yeah, Peg..I don't think Ashley has ever seen/ worked her way thru a child carrier. Even the tribal natives in Africa have one for their kids.

And she likens kids strapped to parents like "bombs"? Gee..it really shows how she treats kids/ babies.

"Don't send your small child to do your dirty work just because you know the charges against a kid will be dropped. That's child abuse."

Ashley...Abortion is the ULTIMATE Child Abuse, but you're ok with that, right?

Okay fine, I'll try to stop being unfair, I guess. I'm still not going to stop criticizing the dark side of the pro-life movement, and there definitely is one. Just like there are decent abortion doctors and doctors who slap around or rape patients.

Sorry, Ashley, but the CPCs in my city give real help to these women and girls - baby clothes, furniture, equipment, help with food, finding jobs, and I don't even know what else they have. Tons of help available.

By the way, do you think the abusive boyfriend would stop beating his girlfriend if she put their baby to death? Didn't think so. Punishing the child with death isn't going to make him stop beating anyone. What abused women really need to do is dump the losers and get restraining orders.

And who exactly uses their kids to protest just so they won't get arrested? I've never heard of that before. Where are these videos of CPC workers lying? IF CPC workers were lying, then I disagree with their actions.

One last note - every time I hear of a pregnant woman being killed by her boyfriend, it's because she REFUSED TO GET AN ABORTION WHEN HE PRESSURED HER TO DO SO.

There are extremists in every movement. Doesn't mean we're all that way or that we all agree with such actions. If you really wanted to be pro-life, you would be. You can support basic rights for all humans regardless of age or developmental status without subscribing to a radical belief set held by a few unbalanced individuals.

I'm thinking about designating my blog officially "pro-life"--abortions are bad for everyone involved--but running an Extremist Watch feature, so pro-lifers who don't agree with the crazies and the bullies have someone to side with.

Ashley, George TIller, who was the DOCTOR who did abortions in Kansas tried to drive over two pro-lifers just standing on the sidewalk. Its on TAPE. He left the street and aimed his Jeep right at them. There are other numerous instances. In the 80's a abortion clinic worker came out and stabbed a pro-lifer with a used needle. There are many other instances and a lot of them are on tape, of pro-lifers being punched, kicked, spit on. Even instances of police arresting pro-lifers for trespassing and SNAPPING their arms the wrong way, breaking the bones.

Example: sign on the right (of a developing fetus) is fine for children's eyes. Sign on the left is not. There has to be some room for non-extremists who see these things.

And I wouldn't call these people baby-savers. Their tactics appear to backfire. Not one of the videos on the YouTube channel shows a single woman changing her mind because of the bloody fetus pictures and relentless chasing and hounding.

I think most of us are put off by extremists on any side of an issue. So we can agree on that. However, the pro-choice media are calling even ordinary people extemists. Ashley, I appreciate how hard you are working through this.
When I was very strictly vegetarian, I found it awful when people would ruin other people's property by throwing paint on fur. However, even though I disagreed with that, I didn't start eating hamburgers because some of the people at PETA were nuts.

"When I was very strictly vegetarian, I found it awful when people would ruin other people's property by throwing paint on fur. However, even though I disagreed with that, I didn't start eating hamburgers because some of the people at PETA were nuts."

This is a good analogy. There are people who care about animal rights and work through educating others, and there are the screaming banshees who vandalize animal testing centers and throw paint on people wearing fur. (Although that part of the movement seems to be a thing of the past)

I do agree that IF the parents were directing their children to purposefully commit actions that would get them arrested, that is wrong! And I agree that IF a CPC was telling a woman her boyfriend would stay with her if she didn't kill their child, that is wrong... not that it's wrong to try to encourage her to keep her child, but wrong to make her believe that will solve all the problems with the boyfriend... and like someone else said, she should dump him and get a restraining order. And IF a CPC told a woman that they would help her and didn't, that's wrong too.

My experience with the CPCs in my area have not been that way, however. I know that for me personally, they gave me a free pregnancy test, which counted toward me being able to get state assistance as I didn't have insurance with my first child, they gave me the paperwork to fill out to get that assistance and sent it in for me (and yes, they really did), they gave me information to get WIC, they accurately estimated how far along I was based on my LMP and my estimated due date and they gave me a free ultrasound, which accurately confirmed how far along I was at 10 weeks, complete with several pictures. And let me tell you... because I was self-employed, it was a headache to get DSHS for my medical, so I wasn't able to get to a doctor until I was 15 weeks (state's fault, not the CPC), so getting that free ultrasound where I was able to see my son and confirm he was alive in there and hadn't died... that was priceless to me! I'll never forget getting to see him with his beating heart as he bounced around like a little jumping bean (a preview of how he'd be throughout my pregnancy and after birth... still can't hold still 4 years later... lol). They offered me free parenting classes and free baby stuff, but I had/have a very strong family support system and several nieces and nephews that I've helped out with since I was 12, so I told them to use those resources for women that REALLY need it.

I've also seen multiple accusations that we pro-lifers and PCPs give false information about the babies, but I've only ever seen information given that has coincided with neutral sources such as medical websites/textbooks, embryology textbooks and even documentaries by Nova and National Geographic. I have, however, seen many a pro-abort claim that an unborn child is not as developed as they are at a given point and what they say could easily be refuted by going to a neutral source. Granted, I'm not omnipresent or omniscient, but that has been my experience.

Posted by: Ashley Herzog at June 15, 2010 1:02 PM

I wouldn't want my child to be arrested outside of a PP. That would mean they are doing something wrong. Of course, that is assuming that they are not being arrested b/c PP lied about what they were doing, or that the police are not over extending their power like in the case of the Aurora PP, when the City and Police tried everything short of shooting to get rid of the protesters.

And the dumbest statement of the day:

Sorry, I want to be pro-life for a number of reasons. Then every time I want to side with you people, you reveal yourself to be dangerously extremist.

You have got to be kidding me. You rely on the conduct of others in order to declare your stance? And you apparently are choosing the pro-abort side? The side that uses lies, misinformation and stupidity to further their agenda? Go for it.

And B -

Three year olds tend to notice what you point out. I have had six of them so I speak from experience. If you pointed to the picture and said it was the body of a baby ripped apart by a suction abortion (let us suppose they even know what that would mean) sure they would notice it. But kids that age (and mine are all very intelligent) would look and not really know what they were seeing.

It has been my experience that the questions come when they are ready to hear the explanation, and why would you not tell them? It is no different than any other circumstance in their life.

A woman has a right to choose, get over it! This is not 1950 this is 2010. Using these children as your tools of guilt and exposing them to graphic pictures that they are not old enough to comprehend is the real crime here!

God says this, God tells us that...why don't you tell your God to show up at a clinic and set the record straight?? Try explaining to your God why the murder of an abortion doctor who could be pregnant herself is acceptable and legal medical procedure of aborting an unborn non-developed fetus is the work of the devil.

You have problems with abortion? Why don't you put your grown-up pants on and put pressure on the political parties that be and leave law abidding citizens alone.

I'm over here laughing (and perhaps crying a little inside) over the fact that a grown woman (I assume) is using YOUTUBE as proof that babies aren't saved by pro-lifers outside abortion clinics.

Ashley-The sign on the left is not the product of a "pro-life extremist". It is the sad, true product of an abortion. I can understand how some people find the photos of pre-born babies torn apart to be very disturbing, because it IS disturbing that this is what actually happens in an abortion mill. Those photos acurately represent what abortion is. I am however always intrigued by a pro-abort who finds the signs repulsive, or extremist, or claim that they are not accurate or faked. It would just seem to me that a pro-abort should somehow try to defend the photos rather than decry them, given they represent something thaat a pro-abort supports.

Strap the babies to their bodies... made me laugh!

And, even if the children of prolifers grow up angry, at least they got to grow up.

I do not think there is such a thing as a decent abortionist, either, Ashley. The very act of abortion is outrageous and indecent. No amount of opening doors for ladies or giving to charity or showing up at fundraisers can make up for that.

This comment also has me rolling on the floor: "That's funny, because the only pro-lifer ever shot or attacked was that one guy in Michigan, and they never concluded it had much to do with politics." Ignorance must be bliss. Or is it?

A woman has a right to choose, get over it! This is not 1950 this is 2010.

Posted by: Amy C at June 15, 2010 2:08 PM

Hmmm. I wasn't aware that in 1950 a woman was carrying a human being and in 2010 she isn't. How silly of me!

A woman has a right to choose, get over it! This is not 1950 this is 2010. Using these children as your tools of guilt and exposing them to graphic pictures that they are not old enough to comprehend is the real crime here!

God says this, God tells us that...why don't you tell your God to show up at a clinic and set the record straight?? Try explaining to your God why the murder of an abortion doctor who could be pregnant herself is acceptable and legal medical procedure of aborting an unborn non-developed fetus is the work of the devil.

You have problems with abortion? Why don't you put your grown-up pants on and put pressure on the political parties that be and leave law abiding citizens alone.

Oh, there was this article yesterday. Documentary filmmakers caught CPC staff on camera telling women that their boyfriends would stop beating them if they had his baby. How could someone be that horrifically irresponsible--especially since the #1 cause of death for pregnant women is murder by an abusive boyfriend?

Posted by: Ashley Herzog at June 15, 2010 1:02 PM
------

Ashley - even if what you say is true, what bearing does that have on the humanity of the child? It only makes the boyfriend responsible for the murder of two human beings - which is true in 32 states IIRC.

And how does the availability of legal abortion feed that boyfriend's desire to eliminate the child? Why do something illegal when it can be done legally? Free to choose - ha!

Further - what does the presence of abortion say regarding his commitment to the life of the mother and his child? (If it is his - which seems to be the excuse behind most of the murders I know of...) It removes the consequences of his actions. He doesn't need to commit to her. However the presence of a child with his DNA/blood relation demands accountability and responsibility. Abortion simply aids and abets him.

An excuse is the presence of fear. Abortion feeds on that fear and fans the flames of avoidance.

Sexual intercourse is very serious business - far more than simple pleasure - which is why for centuries it has been treated with the seriousness it deserves.

---

Currently you're making an excuse for not being pro-life - why? What are you really afraid of Ashley?

Sorry to add since I already sort of wrote a novel :P....

I personally don't like seeing the pictures of the slaughtered babies. I know what abortion is and I don't like seeing anyone mangled (I don't even watch graphically violent movies and that's fake!), especially a baby (at any age, born or preborn). I do think it's necessary, however, for those that deny what abortion is and continue to insist it is oh so necessary. I have an add blocker on my web browser though and for myself, I block the pictures of the murdered babies. And no, I would NOT let my children see those at their current ages (9 months, 2 years and 4 years) anymore than I let them watch violent images on TV (and I don't).

I do agree with Sydney that perhaps it's best to keep young children away from protests and that sort of thing due to the violence and hatred I have seen committed by pro-aborts against pro-lifers.

And I also agree with Milehimama... decent abortionist? That's an oxymoron! That's like saying decent ax murderer.

Hmm . . . I took my daughter to abortion protests when she was younger and prolife dinners, etc. She is now a lovely, well-adjusted senior in college, worked with Marian Wright Edelman and the Children's Defense Fund, started her own charity and is president of her class. No screaming, angry, anti-choice fanatic here. And she is most definitely prolife.

Amy, numerous people on this site have condemned the shooting of Tiller and other abortionists, including Jill. Yes, we think abortion is wrong, but two wrongs don't make a right. The shooters at abortion clinics were "lone wolves" who had no connection with any established prolife group. There are millions of prolifers in the country; should we all be condemned because of the actions of a few sick and deranged individuals?

Ashley, there's some things about the prolife movement I don't like, for example, how some are opposed to contraception. Many are also too conservative for my taste. At one dinner one speaker actually said "God is a conservative." I just cringed! But if you go back and read some of the writings of the abolitionists, quite a few of them would be classified as racist today. Does this mean that the anti-slavery movement was wrong? Of course not. In other words, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

CPC's should always be honest and upfront and not exaggerate or mislead. Telling a woman her boyfriend would stop beating her if she had his baby is irresponsible; most likely he would beat both her AND the baby. But there are thousands of CPCs in the country, and there are bound to be a few that are questionable. If all of them are bad, as PC'ers like to say, then why are women still using their services?

I can't help but remember the pro-abort kid pics Jill posted here. Do pro-aborts worry about the message sent by the child in the orange coat holding an "I WAS A CHOICE" sign? Do pro-aborts worry that these children will grow up feeling no inherent worth and dignity because they are nothing but a subjective "choice" made by another?

Thanks FedUp. I was thinking about those photos too!!

How many women have been injured or killed at CPC's?

Kristen ,
Its great the way you raise your children , but I personally dont agree with telling my 3 yr old if asks whats wrong with the baby in the picture , b/c she can clearly see its a baby in Some pictures that are shown on Posters, that someone killed the baby limb by limb or however it was done , Thats just cruel . Thats like inviting nightmares. But good for you , Im glad you feel its okay that if your 3 yr old asks , then they must know the truth at such a young age . Two each is own . I just stated my opinion . you dont have to like it , Just as nobody has to agree with anyone's comments on here , everyone is entitled to an opinion and you can cram yours down their throats all day but it still wont change them , Just like The woman who go through abortions , Sometimes You cant change their minds . And its Sad .

Fed up, speaking of, I forgot to mention in my post that it appears pro-aborts sure don't mind exploiting pro-life kids in photos and videos.

Ashley,
Stop making excuses and just be pro-life! (and to the author of the article you linked to, we DO have our own lives. I am a medical student who just took the boards yesterday!)

You don't have to agree with everyone in the movement, but you CAN work in your own way to stop the awfulness of abortion and the pain it leaves behind.

Case in point, I disagree with Phyllymiss:
Phillymiss, you stated that you don't agree with pro-lifers who are against contraception. Did you mean artificial contraception, like birth control pills? Because I don't understand how you can support the pill when it can act in an abortifacient manner, causing the death of a pre-formed new life. And have you seen the studies which show that where artificial birth control is pushed heavily in schools, the abortion rate does NOT go down (even tho pill peddlers love to falsely claim that it reduces abortions)? The promotion of the pill does not lead to a decrease in abortions, but instead creates a market for them. More people believing the lie that you can have sex without consequences. More people taking risks without considering what happens if they get pregnant because 'that can't happen on the pill.' More people having sex with people they have no intention of raising a child with.

Here are some questions to ask yourself:
Do you feel that it is consistent to practice artificial birth control and also be pro-life?

Do you think that there is a link between the advent of the pill and the legalization of abortion?

Do you think that the contraceptive mentality has reduced children to be seen as a commodity or a "right" to be had when you want them how you want them instead of as a gift?

Do you think that the contraceptive mentality has fueled the "free love" movement, leading to more sex outside of marriage and out of marriage pregnancies?

Do you think that artificially (yet incompletely) separating sex from the creation of children causes people to believe that sex and procreation can be separate and thus seek to satisfy their sexual urges without considering the possibility of pregnancy--and then to seek an abortion once they are proven wrong and are shocked by an unwelcome pregnancy?

Wouldn't this kind of view of sexuality--that it can be separated from its procreative function--necessarily lead to abortion?

If you use contraception in your marriage and still are pro-life, how do you answer these questions?

Ashley, I'm not understanding you. How can you come on here and argue against pro-lifers while writing on Townhall against pro-aborts?

http://townhall.com/columnists/AshleyHerzog/2010/06/10/barbara_boxer%E2%80%99s_abortion_lie

Um, I don't see how opposing extremism and militant tactics is "making excuses." That's like saying anyone who supports animal rights has to support the Animal Liberation Front (the band of crazies that engaged in terrorist acts like arson and bombings, just like some pro-lifers have bombed clinics.) Are pro-lifers never allowed to utter a word of criticism about the militant fringe of the movement? Should all blacks concerned about civil rights have supported the Black Panthers?

If you're lying to women about how far along they are and telling them their boyfriends will stop beating them when they have a baby, that's being so extreme you believe 100% in telling lies to further your cause. I'm not sure how extreme chasing women down the street is, but it sure doesn't seem to work. All the clinic escort blogs I read say maybe one or two women a year actually decide to check out the CPC after being stalked by pro-lifers. And to promise a woman rent money and child support and give her only a stuffed animal as soon as she leaves the abortion clinic? (Read the Marcotte article. This was all caught on tape.)

I also worry that if I become pro-life, people will think that I just had a negative experience with MY abortion and did it for the wrong reasons, and I'm just projecting my selfish feelings onto others. Best way to combat this?

Scott -- good for you, we certainly need more prolife doctors.

I don't much about the Pill and I'm past childbearing age, but I am mainly talking about nonhormonal methods such as condoms, etc. What's wrong with them?

The abortion clinic told me I was 8 weeks along. Years later I figured I was 10 weeks. The abortion clinic told me it was just a bunch of cells. That I could get on with my life.

Lies are lies.

Best way to combat this Ashley is to truly take a really good look at your abortion experience and find abortion recovery.
So you had a positive experience?
You did it for the right reasons?

You are one confusing lady but I like ya!! :)

Ashley @ 4:00:
For your own good -
1. Stop caring what other people THINK. Go with your gut on these things.
2. Stop looking to pro-choicers for the truth. They tend to make things up as they go along.
3. Stop reading Amanda Marcotte.

"people will think that I just had a negative experience with MY abortion and did it for the wrong reasons,"

Ashley, you seem to worry way too much what people think. What do you think? Is abortion the killing of a human being and if it is, should it remain legal? What are the "right reasons" to abort and if so, what are they?

"Just like there are decent abortion doctors"
You realize that someone who shoots an abortionist is an extremist but you cannot see that the abortionists in the first place are extremists.

I personally feel that you are avoiding the strong emotions and feelings that are right below the surface regarding your own decision to abort. I have no way of knowing this for a fact but you have definitely come to the right place if this is the case. I don't believe you will find more compassionate people than those that have been down your road and emerged into the light on the other side.

I know sometimes it may seem to you that some of us don't care, myself included, but this is not the case. You will find a mix of "good cop, bad cop" here and you prolifers won't say what you may at times want to hear. This is seldom in your best interest anyway.

"You been out ridin' fences for so long now. . . "

You'll always find prolifers here waiting to catch you with open arms.

I was always amazed, as a sidewalk counselor, how pro-aborts were so concerned about the children seeing dead baby pictures or being w/ their families to protest abortion...It is insanity to not see that babies are going inside and being ripped limb from limb and you are concerned about this...It is a classic case of DENIAL & projecting your guilt onto pro-lifers...If you want something to really be concerned about how about the 1.5 million aborted babies!

"So you had a positive experience?
You did it for the right reasons?"

No, exactly the opposite. I blame my serious problems with alcohol on it. For a couple days after, I watched YouTube videos of newborn babies (I know that's really weird, but it's true). Then I started wanting to socialize constantly. Since I was in a college town, that meant hanging out in bars every single night with whoever was willing to go out with me. I literally could not bear to be alone, especially alone and sober, at night. As soon as I sobered up I would feel extremely "down" again (supposedly this is chemical and heavy drinkers experience this regularly), so then it turned into drinking during the day. I'd like to say I'm recovered, but I still have a real problem with it.

I also see that as the point where the relationship with the guy was over, and that in itself caused a lot of depression, even if I knew he was bad for me.

"So you had a positive experience?
You did it for the right reasons?"

No, exactly the opposite. I blame my serious problems with alcohol on it. For a couple days after, I watched YouTube videos of newborn babies (I know that's really weird, but it's true). Then I started wanting to socialize constantly. Since I was in a college town, that meant hanging out in bars every single night with whoever was willing to go out with me. I literally could not bear to be alone, especially alone and sober, at night. As soon as I sobered up I would feel extremely "down" again (supposedly this is chemical and heavy drinkers experience this regularly), so then it turned into drinking during the day. I'd like to say I'm recovered, but I still have a real problem with it. I also picked up a DUI afterward, which was an overall horrible experience.

I also see that as the point where the relationship with the guy was over, and that in itself caused a lot of depression, even if I knew he was bad for me.

Ashley,
You completely missed the point of my post. I was not saying we shouldn't decry extremism or that doing so is "making excuses," but that using their existence to keep from being pro-life is "making excuses." There are extremists on both sides.

***My point was that you don't have to agree with everyone in the movement to be a part of it!***

I even illustrated that with an example. I'm sad how you could take what I said, twist it, and then use it to make it sound like I was saying something ridiculous. Maybe you just read it too fast and got defensive, but if not, I really don't appreciate being made into a straw man when I'm trying to reach out.

"Best way to combat this?"

Simple. Just explain that your opposition to abortion is based on the fact that an innocent human being is killed during abortion. This fact stands by itself, regardless of your past acts.

I'm really glad that you are standing for life. It doesn't matter if you disagree with some tactics, what matters is that you agree with the above statement. Personally, I don't want my olde kids (5&2) to see the pictures of aborted babies because they don't even understand the concept of an adult being killed, let alone a baby. They're not mature enough to handle that reality yet.

That said, I've brought my daughter to sidewalk counsel outside a clinic when she was an infant. I even strapped her to my chest via her Moby wrap.;) The reason I did so was because she was still nursing and I couldn't leave her for the afternoon.

Best way to combat this? Posted by: Ashley Herzog at June 15, 2010 4:00 PM

You'll never be able to control what others think of you. All you can control are the efforts you make to become the best-adjusted person you can be so that anyone who does throw flames in your direction does little if any harm. Whatever it takes to make Ashley the healthiest (for example, post-abortion counseling or alcohol counseling/treatment) is the best means to combat this IMHO.

Jill - I'm not seeing Ashley as being explicitly pro-life in her article in Townhall - for instance she says this:

That question was posed by Newsweek columnist Anna Quindlen back in 2007. "She" is a woman who aborts a pregnancy.

Being post-abortive, Ashley didn't say "She is a woman who aborts a child." She used the very typical pro-choice terminology "aborts a pregnancy".

There's avoidance in her language, but it's clear she's also pro-choice:

If pro-choice activists have faith in the movement, they need to do better than trotting out a scenario that never happened in this country and claiming it's a historical reality on the verge of re-emerging. If they truly have the moral high ground, they have nothing to lose from being honest.

Ashley is not claiming abortion is wrong - only pro-choice tactics are being dishonest.

My walk-away understanding is not diametric opposition to abortion, but non-opposition to the legality of abortion (which she reiterates above), combined with a desire to see people willingly choose life.

I think the term used is a "compassionate pro-lifer".

So Ashley - is that an accurate assessment?

No, "aborting the pregnancy" is an accurate use of the word. "Abort" means to end a process. You can abort downloads in progress. Pregnancy is a process. A person is a process (at least not in a literal sense). You might want to say "aborted the baby's life," but "abort the baby" is not correct language.

Ashley please please please consider talking to someone about what you've been through and more than just here on this blog. From the completely outside looking in, my heart breaks for you because it seems like you are struggling to make peace with your actions in the past and your convictions today. Right or wrong, you're directing your anger at those who don't represent your pro-life views in what you feel is the best manner.

You are not the only woman who has had to struggle with this and you do NOT have to walk this journey alone. Maybe one of these is a good place to start:

http://www.rachelsvineyard.org/
http://www.abortionrecoveryinternational.org/
http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/

You are a strong passionate woman with a gift for writing. Please know that you will be in my prayers tonight. God bless you Ashley.

Posted by: Ashley Herzog at June 15, 2010 6:05 PM
-------

Ashley - that's very close to what Obama does - plays technical semantic games. While pregnancy is a process, no one is explicitly stopping the process, because it's clear that pregnancy means to be "with child". So the pregnancy is not merely stopped - that can be achieved with a cesarian birth. That's not what was meant and you know why you chose the words you did.

If you're trying to establish yourself as one whose views have merit, then playing such word games will eventually lead to your dismissal when enough people understand you.

You also cherry-picked my observations, avoiding the primary topic of my comment, which is my assessment of your position re: playing both pro-life and pro-choice.

You can generally mislead others on their own assumptions while playing a fall-back position of never stating precisely where you stand. It might gain audience for a while.

Obama does this a lot - it's a technique I call moral illusionism.

Sadly - it's a lot closer to self-delusion.

If you want to call others out for not being principled, you might want to start with yourself first.

Logs, eyes and all that...

Ashley, I always read your comments and wish I could do something more to help you.

I think that at one point or another, I've probably disagreed with every regular commenter on this site about something important. You don't have to agree with everyone about everything in order to be pro-life - think of all the different Christian churches there are, but even though they're different, they're all still Christian.

When it comes to extremists, every cause has them. Nat Turner's protest against slavery was to kill a bunch of white people, including some little kids who were playing outside their school. Was that a totally depraved thing to do? Yes, it was. But it didn't mean that Nat Turner was wrong to believe that slaves should be free, or that abolitionists all rejoiced when they heard he'd killed pretty much every white person he could get his hands on.

"I also worry that if I become pro-life, people will think that I just had a negative experience with MY abortion and did it for the wrong reasons, and I'm just projecting my selfish feelings onto others. Best way to combat this?"

Stick with the science. They can't argue that unborn babies aren't human or aren't alive without looking like they're lying or really, really ignorant. And if they acknowledge that unborn babies are living humans but still argue it's okay to kill them, well...in that case, it's not YOU who has to worry about what people will think of you. And...

"You'll never be able to control what others think of you. All you can control are the efforts you make to become the best-adjusted person you can be so that anyone who does throw flames in your direction does little if any harm. Whatever it takes to make Ashley the healthiest (for example, post-abortion counseling or alcohol counseling/treatment) is the best means to combat this IMHO."

Yep. :)

"For a couple days after, I watched YouTube videos of newborn babies (I know that's really weird, but it's true)."

No, that's not weird. Did you ever read the book "Forbidden Grief"? It's by the woman who started Rachel's Vineyard, and it talks about things like that.

"I literally could not bear to be alone, especially alone and sober, at night."

My mom had a friend like this - only she didn't have an abortion (that I know of), she was sexually abused by her grandfather as a child. It sounds like a reaction to trauma.

Jasper, lay off Ashley. She's going through a difficult time and you're not helpful.

I'm looking into counseling options now. I've already started some from the alcohol, but also you know, "that thing." Thanks, everyone.

Ashley, I appreciate your honesty and willingness to be vulnerable as you try to work things through. Stay close to Carla. She can help you.

Sorry for my constant schizophrenia on abortion. What are those new John Mayer lyrics? "Half of my heart's got a grip of the situation, half of my heart takes time." But I think I've finally found my position: compassionate pro-life. (No bullying tactics.)

Ashley - I just caught up with the comments. My earlier responses were delayed (I was addressing even earlier commentary) and apparently missed quite a bit of discussion.

It's not a good idea to cook steaks and blog at the same time... one or the other is going to get burnt! heh

Anyway - I wanted to clarify my last comment, because with on-line commentary it's easy to misunderstand. I've often misread the comments only to discover a different understanding with a later reading.

I wasn't implying you were being deliberately dishonest - only it appears that way.

I'm glad you're looking into counseling - I've appreciated your sharing here and will be praying for you.

"But I think I've finally found my position: compassionate pro-life."

Posted by: Ashley Herzog at June 15, 2010 7:50 PM

Sounds like a great plan, Ashley ;) No one will better able to be compassionate toward someone contemplating an abortion or who is suffering the after-affects of one than someone who has been through it like you. Every witness like yours is incredibly valuable.

I believe you are on your way to becoming whole again. Hang in there; we are all praying for you.

Ashley, we've had our war of words here, but I honestly mean this, I hope you will find peace in your heart.

You are not weird and the reactions you've had to your abortion sound EXACTLY like the reactions my friends had to theirs. One friend became a huge party girl too...constantly drinking, never wanted to be alone. Just like you.

Another friend became BABY OBSESSED and tried to get pregnant by every guy she could.

There is peace to be found.

I will be praying for you to receive the healing that you need Ashley. There are good people who can help at the websites that Kelly gave in her post. I want you to be whole and free. I know that you are hurting right now but you can be healed.

Praying for you too, Ashley. I am so thankful that you keep wondering and questioning and coming back here. Your honesty is refreshing.

I drank like a fish after my abortion. Trying to escape and cope the only way I knew how.

email me anytime
carla@jillstanek.com
I can help you find resources that are near you.

Bless you Carla for offering your help. I hope Ashley will take your information and contact you directly. I will be praying.

Carla, I love you. :)

Ashley, I am glad to hear you're seeking some help to sort through all your circumstances. I will keep you in my prayers as well.

Marauder,
Sorry about that, I haven't read through all of the comments, I removed mine...didn't realize Ashely was going thru a tough time...

It is clear that Ashley Herzog, Wenches, and others of the pro-slaughter of new, tiny human beings via induced abortion, etc., are suffering from a form of derangement.

They complain about parents attaching their children and carrying them as if the parents are strapping bombs onto themselves in order to commit a terrorist, violent, homicidal act, when these parents are actually involved with life and loving their children.

The abortuary is the site of the violent, terrorist act. The abortuary death escorts are the terrorist, radical activists leading another child to the slaughter, and leading another woman to her medical rape and misogynistic abuse at the hands of the abortuary personnel.

Strapping children to themeselves like bombs?

ABSURD!

What do those loving, caring, compassionate pro-slaughter via abortion activists-advocates think of their friends who have children and carry them in baby carriers?

Oh, wait! Don't tell me. They don't have friends who ever have babies. All their friends avoid birthing and raising babies, and/or abort their babies. Of course, perhaps Herzog, Wenches, and other pro-death of new babies via induced abortion, etc., just don't hold their children, or they just don't wear their children.

What would one expect who is pro-slaughter of innocent children via abortion?

I see on this comments list that Ashley Herzog has typed some newer messages in which she expresses a more pro-life stance.

That is encouraging to read, Ashley.

I wish you well.

My heart goes out to you, Ashley! I will be praying for you!

Ashley let me tell ya a story. at 5 months pregnant my mother found out she had cancer carrying me in 1976. the easy way out would of been to abort me. the doctors told my mother she would not live if she carried out being pregnant with me. said she was very ill and said she should abort me. my mother said she has lived her life so if she died she was willing to do that for me. she was willing to sacrafice her life for mine.im pro life because my moms decision we both go to our state march and the one in washington dc. no one hates u ashley. forgiveness is what we were taught by our our savior. no one especially pro life has to right to terminate anyones life. i was digusted when when that guy killed tiller. tho i think he was just a nut ball not a true prolife person

"Obama does this a lot - it's a technique I call moral illusionism."
Posted by: Chris Arsenault at June 15, 2010 6:27 PM

Hey Chris, Good term for this technique.

I've always thought of it as riding the fence --"Abortion is wrong for me and my family BUT I don't have the right to tell others they shouldn't have one." -- UGH!

I firmly believe that if all the fence riders looked in the mirror, took a deep breath and jumped off the fence to the side they knew was Right and True, atrocities like the holocaust could have been prevented.

After all, very few of the hearts of the bad that held the most power and only wanted more could have been changed. The good hearts that knew what was really happening were already doing everything in their power to help the oppressed and change things.

It was the moral illusionists/fence riders who knew what was going on, knew it was bad but were unwilling to stick their necks out due to their own insecurities and fears who could have been the saving grace for many innocent people and stopped the violence.

Would the pro-aborts rather see a parent leave their baby in a stroller and walk up and down a block "neglecting" their child while they protested the abortion mills? The baby sling argument is a desperate grasp far from reality.

As for small children seeing chopped up baby photos? I have not a problem with my 3 young daughters (7, 5, and 2) seeing those photos. As one commenter posted, children can grasp abortion and the killing of a human life far easier than adults can. It is an injustice and we as a society of young parents (should) teach our children to stand up for the injustices in this world....abortion is one of them. Plain and simple.

Ashley, will include you in my prayers, too.

I'm hoping you find your inner peace..God Bless.

I love you, Kel!

Bless you Carla for offering your help. I hope Ashley will take your information
Posted by: Prolifer L at June 15, 2010 10:40 PM

Me too! A lot of counselors are not skilled in dealing with postabortion issues. I don't say that to discourage Ashley, but with the hope she will accept a referral from the postabortive community. I too, am praying for Ashley and wish her only the best.

Ashley, I'm sorry to hear that you are struggling, but I'm glad you're interested in seeking counseling. In addition to seeking out a professional counselor, I recommend checking out the PASS Support Boards. This message board provides politically neutral, non-judgmental "peer support", information, and help and healing from other women who've experienced abortion, and is just a safe place to talk and work through your feelings. The ladies there come from a variety of backgrounds and beliefs and most are kind and helpful. I'm a member there, let me know if there's anything I can do to help. I hope to see you soon!
Sincerely,
Lahela Rose

I used to picket our local child killing center on a regular basis. One morning as I was leaving the house one of daughters asked if she could go with me.

It has been so long I do not remember her age at the time. (6 or 7 years old?)

I said sure.

The sign I carried that day was a Lenart Nilson photo identical to one in the third photograph of this post ('Is this a choice or a child?'): An intact 7-8 week old pre-natal child. No blood no gore.

The writing on my sign read:'Dr. James, please stop performing elective abortions.'

Pretty tame.

The police paid us a visit.

One of the police officers was already having a bad hair day before he arrived on scene. He asked me for my ID.

(Unbeknownst to me, had I been a victim of racial profiling?)

When I told HIM it was in my truck, he reached into my back pocket to retrieve a wallet that was not there. I guess he thought I was being dishonest.

I wanted to thank him for the grope, but at that moment in time I knew he did not a have sense of humor of which he was aware.

(By the way, American citizens are not required to carry identification if they are just standing on a public sidewalk. The officers had not observed us doing anything illegal, so they had no legitimate reason to demand my ID.

If he had asked I would have retrieved it from my truck. I was not being contentious. I do not like to carry a wallet in my hip pocket, so I keep my check book and drivers license in my vehicle.)

The other police officer (That's right, two officers were dispatched to quell this imminent threat to the public peace.) took charge and told us why they were there

A city bus driver had complained we were blocking his view of the intersection while standing on the public sidewalk. (It was a false accusation by someone who did not like what we were doing.)

There was one other fellow pro-lifer carrying a sign and our stories were consistent, so the officers bid us good day went back to 'crime fighting'.

That same a day a middle aged woman walked up to me and went ballistic, cursing vehmently and screaming and whining the same old stuff any pro-life picketer has heard who has spent more than one day walking the line.

I was just standing there looking at this woman and listening to her discombulate emotionally.

When she finally ran out of steam and left my daughter asked me, "Daddy, what is wrong with that woman?"

I said, "I guess she is just not a very happy person."

I think the ladies behavior frightened my daughter a little bit, but my daughter did not ask to leave. She stayed there right by my side til we were done for the day.

Today she is 23 years old and seems to be quite well emotionally adjusted. She is going to college and working part time. Still a virgin. Not carousing or doing drugs or getting drunk.

If I asked I bet she would go with me today to picket at an abortuary. Heck, If I told her I was going she would probably ask me if she could come with me.

Ashley, I want you to know that I am praying for you, that you will receive healing in your heart and peace of mind.

Ashley, my heart is really touched and encouraged by what you have written recently. Like the others, I wish the best for you and for you to find peace! There's forgiveness and second chances. :) I'm so happy you're getting the help you need to work through things! Sometimes we need that little extra something that talking to someone like a counselor can give us. I'm praying for you, Ashley... that you can find what you're looking for. :) And if anything I said was hurtful toward you, I didn't mean for it to be and I sincerely apologize!

Thanks, everyone.

Even though I don't agree with the tactic, what strikes me about the video is: this guy is a real man. He adopted an abandoned black kid (notoriously hard to find homes for--I even heard a black woman defend abortion on the grounds that black kids can't get adopted). He's starkly different from the guy who berates a woman into an abortion.

I agree with you Ashley the man in the video is a real prolife man, who "walks the walk". These beautiful Black babies did not deserve a death sentence, look how adorable they are. They are so innocent and precious. We care about them and you too Ashley.