Jivin J's Life Links 6-02-09

web grab.jpgby JivinJ

  • William Saletan rather thoughtlessly attempts to argue that it makes sense for pro-lifers to kill abortionists:
    I applaud these statements. They affirm the value of life and nonviolence, two principles that should unite us. But they don't square with what these organizations purport to espouse: a strict moral equation between the unborn and the born.
    Yes, they do. If it is wrong to kill unborn humans because they have inherent worth and intrinsic value, then it is also wrong to kill born humans (including George Tiller and other abortionists) because they have the same inherent worth and intrinsic value....

    If a doctor in KS were butchering hundreds of old or disabled people, and legal authorities failed to intervene, I doubt most members of the National Right to Life Committee would stand by waiting for "educational and legislative activities" to stop him. Somebody would use force.
    Well, there was that case not so many years ago of a deranged man who killed and assisted in the suicides of more than a hundred people in MI. Most of the people weren't terminally ill and some of them weren't even sick. They were often found dead in hotel rooms or delivered by van to hospitals. The ghoulish individual even removed organs from at least one victim. For years authorities failed to intervene and failed to convict more than a couple times when they did intervene. Yet no members of the NRLC attempted to use force or violence to stop Jack Kevorkian.

    dawn eden.jpg

  • Americans United for Life has hired pro-life blogger Dawn Eden (pictured left).

  • USA Today has an article which provides more details on Scott Roeder, George Tiller's alleged murderer:
    Scott Roeder called himself a citizen of the Republic of Kansas who didn't want to pay income or Social Security taxes or register his car. In the 1990s, he belonged to a group that said its members were not subject to federal or state laws.

    Roeder's brother, David, said in a written statement that Roeder has a history of mental illness.

    Roeder's ex-wife said in an interview that his views led to the breakup of their 10-year marriage.

    A local NBC station has a few more details from Roeder's ex-wife and his mug shot from 1998.


  • Comments:

    Go Dawn Eden!! :)

    Posted by: Carla at June 2, 2009 4:37 PM


    Whoo Hoo! Dawn Eden ROCKS!!!!!!!

    Posted by: angele at June 2, 2009 4:48 PM


    Hey Hal:

    I clicked on a link to Kelly's rants and saw that you commented on my rant about professional athletes' salaries and why Obama isn't cutting theirs like he is with CEOs. And also how you put in a dig that I was being disingenuous.

    I didn't initially see the comment so I don't want to think that I was ignoring you or failing to counter your attacks (ha, ha).

    Here's my response.

    Hal:

    Most of my professional athlete friends are old has beens.

    They didn't make the money that pros make now.

    In fact, many of them were screwed by the NFL. They get peanuts for pensions and very poor medical care even though may of these guys suffered injuries while playing the sport they loved.

    The point is that today's professional athletes are way over paid in proportion to their contribution to society.

    My old NFL friends would agree since so much money is spent on paying guys like LeBron (who couldn't even touch my hero Dwight Howard), etc. very little money is left for owners and hence, the NFL, NBA, etc. to pay for adequate athlete's pensions, medical care, etc.

    Here's one area that Obama could score some points, helping old athletes.

    In fact, Mike Ditka, has answered the call for many of these forgotten heroes who built the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,295185,00.html

    So please Hal, stop trying to make me into a liar by bringing these types of things up, especially the Obama in Muslim garb thing (it will bite him some day, I promise). It's tiring.

    Posted by: HisMan at June 2, 2009 5:55 PM


    You can recognize that what a person does is abominable without being compelled to kill him. This is something every opponent of the death penalty grasps.

    Or do death penalty opponents not think that ordinary murder (of non-abortionists) is abominable?

    Posted by: Christina at June 2, 2009 6:10 PM


    Christina:

    Can you reword that please?

    Posted by: HisMan at June 2, 2009 6:27 PM


    "If it is wrong to kill unborn humans because they have inherent worth and intrinsic value, then it is also wrong to kill born humans (including George Tiller and other abortionists) because they have the same inherent worth and intrinsic value."

    --------------------------------------------------

    Though I have no quarrel with the notion that prenatal humans have inherent worth and value simply because they are humans, that alone is not what makes elective abortion wrong.

    It is wrong because innocent prenatal humans are summarily executed with no due process of law.

    Everyday men and women make knowing willful 'choices' to engage in conduct that by it's very nature forfeits their 'right to life'.

    Does the'jihadist terrorist' share the same inherent worth and intrensic value as any other human being?

    Of course they do, but when their twisted convoluted ideology results in 'choices' to kill their fellow man simply becasue he does not share their perspective, then though their inherent worth and intrensic value has not changed, their behavior has separated them from the community of men and the protections thereof.

    This nation has soldiers half way around the world who are hunting these self disenfranchised men down and killing them. Though I regret the loss of opportunity for these misguided missles strapped to a bomb to live a productive life and contribute to the betterment of society, I have no guilt or remorse or grief that they are no longer among us in the land of the living.

    'Choices have consequences'. There are some men who need killing.

    I recognize there have been and there always will be people of good will who cannot in good conscience bring themselves to kill a fellow human being.

    My father was one of those men, but his conscience did not prohibit him from ministering health and healing and hope for other men who did not share his compunction and those men went about the grim business of protecting us from people who would kill us simply because they could by killing them first.

    In my estimation it was wrong for mr. Roeder to murder mr. Tiller because mr. Roeder made himself god as judge, jury and executioner. But mr. Tiller had knowingly placed himself squarley in harms way and no one who loved him or should have loved him appears to have done anything to remove him from the target hairs he placed himself in.

    How was Tiller any different from the jihadist who sawed off the heads of his victims and video taped the event and prouldly broadcast the gruesome act around the world?

    Are Tillers victims any less dead than the Jihadist?

    Tiller attended, even served in his 'church'. Jihadist do the same in their mosques.

    'Choices' have consequences as mr. Tiller and his family, friends and business associates are now learning.

    After having been shot once before and surviving the attack mr. Tiller appears to have re-counted the costs and determined the benefits to be derived outweighed the assets to be risked.

    mr. Tiller rolled the dice and they came up snake eyes.

    I am not elated at his passing, but instead I am saddened that he wasted his life, by his own estimation, depriving some 60,000 others of theirs.

    yor bro ken

    Posted by: kbhvac at June 2, 2009 6:46 PM


    why am I not surprised that Saletan cannot reason. His position on abortion doesn't make any sense and neither does his take on prolifers.

    Turns out I was right about Roeder's anarchist connections. It just seemed to me that this is what he would be. I would dearly like to see the Army of God shut down because they are neither. And they do the prolife movement a terrible disservice.

    Posted by: angel at June 2, 2009 7:16 PM


    See, this is why we must be careful.

    Some try to use this type of thing as a Catch-22. Either we'll "admit" that we support actions like the shooting death of George Tiller, or we'll "admit" that abortion isn't the same as killing, say, six-year-olds on a playground, since "you would kill the guy who was killing six-year-olds on a playground, right?"

    That doesn't mean we need to turn around and support what happened Sunday. It means that our response must be extremely careful and thoughtful, so as not to suggest that abortion is somehow less heinous, simply because a few scattered people use violence against abortionists.

    Posted by: bmmg39 at June 2, 2009 8:17 PM


    ***1964 Planned Parenthood ad: "An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun. It is dangerous to your life and health."***

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2261931/posts

    ---

    Ah Hah!!

    Checkmate!!

    Mike

    Posted by: Mike at June 2, 2009 8:49 PM


    Dear Angele, Please forgive me... I have no Idea who you are talking about. Who is this Don you and Carla are excited over? RJ

    Posted by: RJ Sandefur at June 2, 2009 8:49 PM


    My birthday on Saturday was low key, because my cool brother-in-law, was in the hospital do to high blood pressure. Please pray for him. He is out now, but it will take him a while for him to get back on his feet! I love being thirty! RJ

    Posted by: RJ Sandefur at June 2, 2009 8:55 PM


    Hey RJ,
    Dawn Eden a prolife blogger was hired by Americans United for Life. Angele and I were cheering her on!!
    :)

    I will pray for your brother in law!!

    Posted by: Carla at June 2, 2009 9:51 PM



    I just saw this mentioned in another link. Just thought I would "share"


    http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/reader-diaries/2009/06/01/vigils-dr-tiller

    Posted by: angele at June 2, 2009 10:31 PM


    Hey RJ,

    Dawn Eden is a pro life blogger and author that I admire. We have never met, but were I had hoped to meet her at the March for Life, this past January.

    She and Charmaine Yoest will do good works.

    Congrats on diggin' 30!!!!

    I will be praying for your brother in law's speedy recovery.

    = D

    Posted by: angele at June 2, 2009 10:36 PM


    What a ridiculous argument!

    It's so strange that the pro-life community, whose primary goal is to give human rights to a group of human beings, is constantly under the attack of the so called "pro-choice" movement.

    As I always state when confronted, I am pro-choice. I am all about the choice to have sex or abstain.

    There is absolutely nothing remotely close to double-talk in the argument that it was a tragedy that Tiller died, as well as a tragedy that he killed over 60,000 babies (and proudly).

    Because human life is sacred in all of its forms.

    Our society is unwell, so much so that Saletan was able to say, "Tiller was brave. His work makes me want to puke. But so does combat, the kind where guts are spilled and people choke on their own blood. I like to think I love my country and would fight for it. But I doubt I have the stomach to pull the trigger, much less put my life on the line." Somehow, THIS statement was considered acceptable.

    BRAVE?

    Yuck yuck yuck yuck.

    Posted by: MaryRose at June 3, 2009 12:53 AM


    Nice find Mike. When When Planned Parenthood thought it would profit their birth control sales they were happy to advertised that
    ************
    "An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun. It is dangerous to your life and health."

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2261931/posts
    ************

    Mike, Thanks for the proving that my yard sign saying Planned Parenthood Kills babies and my yard sign saying Planned Parenthood Lies to You are both true?

    Posted by: truthseeker at June 3, 2009 2:07 AM


    here's an article on Tiller's friend Cathcart whining about how he can't perform late term abortions.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,524829,00.html?test=latestnews

    With Tiller's death, there are fewer than 10 doctors who perform third-trimester abortions in the United States, Carhart estimated, and though he has worked with younger physicians before, he hasn't trained any abortion providers in third-trimester techniques for at least five years.

    Carhart, with his wife Mary by his side at a news conference Tuesday, said he'd be willing to train younger doctors but few want to put themselves or their families at risk.

    "Young people starting families aren't going to want to go into abortion practice," Mary Carhart said. "If you were young with little kids, would you want abortion opponents outside your house?"

    Tiller's family says there are no plans to reopen the clinic. Amen.

    Posted by: angel at June 3, 2009 7:15 AM


    angel, hanks for the great article! Amen. Let's keep Carhart in our prayers!

    Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 7:22 AM


    I never knew that Hern was pushing 70. That's good news that fewer med students are willing to perform abortions. I pray for Mr. Carhart's soul. Lord please may he become the next Bernard Nathanson. I also pray for Warren Hern!

    Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 7:28 AM


    Dawn Eden is so pretty!

    Posted by: heather at June 3, 2009 7:38 AM


    The University of Colorado-Denver School of Medicine doesn't seem to interested to blow their horn about Hern either. I think it says alot that he hasn't taught there in 20 years?
    Maybe this accreditation is to give the man the veneer of respectability?

    Posted by: angel at June 3, 2009 7:44 AM


    Professional athletes are not overpaid.

    Their salaries represent a fraction of money that their talent earns the team.

    Is it really more fair for the team owners and advertisers to get more profit from their talent than they do?

    Think about it.

    If it weren't for the fabulous talents of these athletes, there wouldn't be any money to pay them.

    How did these athletes get their talent?

    Aren't they in all fairness entitled to the fruit of their labor?

    Posted by: hippie at June 3, 2009 9:00 AM


    Mike,
    Thank you so much for that!! I remember reading that somewhere. Planned Parenthood Kills.

    Posted by: Carla at June 3, 2009 9:07 AM


    A couple of comments:

    One, comparing our efforts to stop the killing of unborn children to what we would do to stop the killing of born children is unrealistic and inaccurate. To make the comparison valid, you'd have to ask what we would do if someone took a born child hostage, and somehow put that child inside their body (with life support), and then threatened to kill it. How do you "rescue" a child that is inside someone? Do you call the local SWAT team, and ask them to "storm the body"? Killing every abortionist in the country would not stop abortion, as long as it's legal there will be nurses, physician practitioners, and others who will be willing to take their place, albeit with better security.

    Second, consider the example of Lincoln and Stowe. Lincoln blamed Stowe for starting the civil war (with her book, Uncle Tom's Cabin), and he himself said some pretty harsh things about slavery (as well he should have!), but neither of them is to blame, or was blamed (as far as I know) for the violence of John Brown in Kansas or Harper's Ferry. It is the evil doers, the baby killers, that are responsible for the hatred they have generated, and it is not our responsibility to "regulate" the actions of every emotionally unstable antiabortionist in the country. That is the job of law enforcement, alone.

    Posted by: Doyle Chadwick at June 3, 2009 12:43 PM


    Doyle~

    Except, the local SWAT team wouldn't come because it's legal.

    Posted by: MaryRose at June 3, 2009 8:54 PM