Jivin J's Life Links 5-24-10

web grab.jpgby JivinJ, host of the blog, JivinJehoshaphat

  • At the Abortion Gang blog (language warning), Megan is blaming the pro-life movement for some of the negative emotions (including suicidal thoughts) she felt following her abortion:
  • Well-intentioned feminists clamor about feelings of relief and burdens lifted without proper mention of those "various other" emotional responses which lend superficial credence to the PAS imaginings of anti-choice pseudo-psychiatrists....

    I would know. After aborting a pregnancy a couple of years ago, I plummeted into a state of emotional and psychological distress not unlike that which supposedly indicates PAS....

    I suppose the average anti-choice onlooker would've gladly diagnosed me with "Post-Abortion Syndrome." BUT (and this is a big BUT): I've never associated the guilt, shame, isolation, anxiety, or depression that I endured in the wake of the procedure with the procedure itself. In my experience, PAS represents a flawed causal model which conflates abortion (the alleged cause) with aggressive anti-abortion sentiment, sexism, and pervasive cultural stigma (the actual cause).

    Yes, antis, I blame you and the patriarchy for my post-abortion emotional upheaval.

  • Elle has a piece on a couple who agreed to have an abortion if she got pregnant. She got pregnant, decided to keep the child and now he doesn't want to pay child support:
  • Greg Bruell (below left) and his girlfriend of a year and a half, Sandra Hedrick (below right), had a pact. "We agreed that if we got pregnant, we'd terminate because we were not in a stable family unit," Hedrick says. Or as Bruell more starkly puts it, "I resumed sexual relations with her on the condition that were birth control to fail, she'd abort without waffling."


    "Resumed," because 9 months earlier Hedrick had conceived a child with Bruell and the couple decided to end that pregnancy. Or rather, he decided, and she went along....

    But when she got pregnant in early 2009 (she was on birth control, she says, though its effectiveness may have been diluted by antibiotics she was taking), she balked. "I looked at the ultrasound," Hedrick says. "A bad move." She also realized that this might be her last chance to have another child. She broke the news to Bruell: She was keeping the baby.

  • Planned Parenthood's President Cecile Richards answered some questions for the Iowa Independent. Richards believes that doctors not physically seeing and examining women and then prescribing drugs which have killed and harmed numerous women "is an incredibly important advance" for women who don't live close to hospitals in case a complication occurs.

    I guess we can change the adage "Don't come between a woman and her doctor" into "Don't come between a woman and a computer screen."

  • Comments:

    If PAS is fake and only happens because of "anti-choicers", why do women who always supported legalized abortion sometimes get it?

    Provided the couple in the Elle piece is American, Bruell's got to cough up the money. We spent a whole class on this in Family Law - guys can't get out of child support because they didn't want a kid.

    That little kid is going to grow up to have serious issues with both her parents. Her father didn't want her and her mother considers looking at the ultrasound - which led her not to have an abortion - "a bad move"? Wow.

    Posted by: Marauder at May 24, 2010 1:30 PM

    Old-timers had a better adage: don't come between a bear and her cub.

    Those were the days of the wild West. Today we are enlightened.

    Posted by: Jon at May 24, 2010 1:31 PM

    Cute kid. Creepy parents.

    Posted by: phillymiss at May 24, 2010 1:32 PM

    "Yes, antis, I blame you and the patriarchy for my post-abortion emotional upheaval."


    We accept full responsibility for our untiring efforts at conscience formation, the very conscience that drove you to your upheaval.

    Of course, had you not killed your child that conscience would have been a source of great joy when you held your newborn child in your arms. It was your decision to end your child's life, and the actual murder, that are the most proximal causes of your emotional upheaval.

    In blaming conscience formation, you show longing for a world where there is no conscience formation. A world before religion and civilization, where might makes right. A world of asocial, amoral brutes, where narcissistic self-indulgence is the sole principle of governance.

    The answer of course is a healing ministry such as Rachel's Vineyard or Lumina.

    The rest of us aren't prepared to throw away 5,000 years of civilization so Meghan doesn't have to face the prospect of having a bad day.

    Posted by: Gerard Nadal at May 24, 2010 1:32 PM

    I don't get it. Feminist groups constantly talk about how strong and capable women are, yet at the same time they are constantly at the whim of evil men (the patriarchy) and we anti-choice fanatics. They accuse us of not trusting women to make decisions, yet they think women are so stupid that they don't know what "abortion alternatives" mean, and they have to be protected from the dreaded crisis pregnancy centers, where thousands of women die every year from botched pregnancy alternatives counseling.

    They can't have it both ways.

    Posted by: phillymiss at May 24, 2010 1:42 PM

    So they blame a cascade of emotions including grief and guilt on the pro lifers?
    In psychology that is called displacement. I am guilty for my wrong deeds. Displaceing them on others will not work. The cop did not make me violate traffic laws.

    Posted by: xppc at May 24, 2010 1:58 PM

    Wow, pro-aborts really don't like responsibility, do they? Blame blame blame. Yeah, it's TOTALLY our fault that she experienced emotional pain after her abortion.

    It's everybody else's fault but theirs. But it's their CHOICE, right? *eye roll*

    It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic.

    Posted by: MaryLee at May 24, 2010 2:03 PM

    Ha ha, they don't post any comments from people who disagree. Sycophants. Or "SICKO-PHANTS" as it were.

    Posted by: MaryLee at May 24, 2010 2:12 PM

    I read Meghan's comments on her own blog. She does not give one single concrete example of how a pro-life person made her (as an individual) feel bad. Her friends that were sad for her could easily have felt bad if they were pro-choice. She also says that this blog is her 'coming out' which implies that her abortion was rather private until now. If that's the case, then how could pro-lifers target her with guilt? People who are Not vegan certainly don't feel depression or guilt because of their diet, despite all the pro-vegetarian information out there. I think she feels guilt all by herself, which is natural in her situation. Her argument is unconvincing and her logic faulty. Post-partum depression is real. And when a woman is pregnant and that pregnancy is abrubtly brought to an end (such as abortion) hormonal changes can and often do result in post partum depression.

    When I had my wisdom tooth extracted, I was neither traumatized nor emotional. When I had my appendix out, I was not traumatized (although it was unpleasant) and had absolutely no emotional effects afterward. However, decades after my child's life was ended, it is still the last thought in my head before I go to sleep each night. I am lucky that I have found a great deal of solace and healing, but the fact of the loss exists. Just like when you lose a parent or sibling, that loss will always exist. The pain of loss doesn't simply evaporate because your political position is one way or the other.

    Posted by: ninek at May 24, 2010 2:12 PM

    Ninek, it's possible that it's "our fault" because we exist. Period. I've heard this argument before.

    Here's the thing....Is abortion a private matter? Then why are they discussing their abortions? Is abortion a difficult decision? If it is, then why? If you feel remorse, then explain why. Is it because pro-lifers have actual biological facts to back up their claims? Or is it because they don't like to feel guilty?

    I have never heard anyone who decided NOT to abort ever regret their decision. Does it make life a little harder? Yes. But so what. Life is hard.

    These girls need to stop playing the blame game. Abortion is ugly and awful. That is not our fault.

    Posted by: MaryLee at May 24, 2010 2:18 PM

    Hey guys!

    My name isn't spelled with an H. I'm going to go celebrate being 23 and baby-less now. And maybe even have a kid when I'm ready!



    Posted by: Megan at May 24, 2010 2:33 PM

    Well, congratulations, Megan without an H! Have a nice life. Your dead child won't.

    Posted by: MaryLee at May 24, 2010 2:35 PM

    Sure, that above post would "prove" Megan's point. It doesn't matter that we can be provoked. Megan-without-an-H can write about how it's our fault she felt guilty after her abortion, and then pop up on on our forums talking about it all chipper like she had her tonsils removed? Ridiculous.

    Posted by: MaryLee at May 24, 2010 2:36 PM

    I imagine Ms. Hedrick has finally learned what type of man she was dating.... I wish her and her children all the best, including a man who respects her and her beautiful femininity.

    Posted by: Peg at May 24, 2010 2:46 PM

    Ms. Richards,

    "Doctor in the house" NOT necessary? What's next for Planned Parenthood's pro-woman offerrings? "Do-it-yourself Abortion" videos? No wait, that would bring us back full circle to the so-called kitchen table abortions of the Olden Days which killed ga-ziillions of women because there wasn't a trained doctor present.

    Oh my, what's an abortion business to do (to stay afloat in this crazy world)?

    Posted by: Janet at May 24, 2010 3:20 PM

    Nobody tells you what to feel or not to feel megan without an h. Nobody told me anything about how I would feel after my abortion. Relief, regret, shame, guilt, low self esteem, anger, depression, suicidal thoughts and nightmares were all part of the realization that I paid someone to kill my own child.

    If things start to unravel for you and you are struggling, especially when you see your "wanted" baby on ultrasound around the same gestational as your aborted child....please reach out for help. You can find abortion recovery. You can heal.

    Posted by: carla Author Profile Page at May 24, 2010 3:24 PM

    The "men's rights" article was actually really interesting and only 2 pages, if you want to read it.

    Basically, the guy in the article backed off because he realized he was being a jerk, but I'm sure eventually someone not concerned with being a jerk will take the case to the SC.

    Their argument really shows just how schizophrenic the abortion rulings really are. The idea is that women have self-determination when it comes to having a child, but men don't. The "problem" of course is that abortion can't be about not wanting a child, legally, but rather about not wanting to go through the physical nature of pregnancy.

    The fact that nearly all abortions happen because the woman doesn't want the *child* doesn't mean that a man can also opt out of raising said child.

    What a convoluted mess.

    Posted by: Lauren at May 24, 2010 3:25 PM

    Yes, Megan. 'maybe' have a baby when you're ready...
    MAYBE. And 'maybe' you'll find out too late then that you CAN'T have another baby. That 'maybe' this was the only one you'll ever be able to have. Let's see if you're 'celebrating' then.

    Posted by: Pamela at May 24, 2010 3:32 PM

    Maybe Abortion Gang will actually post comments from those with opposing points of view. Unlike PCG. I just commented at AG. I guess we shall see.

    Posted by: carla Author Profile Page at May 24, 2010 3:49 PM

    I have never heard anyone who decided NOT to abort ever regret their decision. Does it make life a little harder? Yes. But so what. Life is hard.

    In a college speech class I took, we had an assignment where we had to argue for or against some political point. A (very intelligent, well-spoken) young woman in the class - maybe 22 years old - chose abortion. She began by saying that she had gotten pregnant in high school, and - being pro-life - had never once questioned what to do. There was no option but to give birth. She ended up getting her GED and raising her daughter while attending college part-time.

    "But," she said. Her views had since matured and changed. She loved her daughter very very much, and wouldn't give her up for anything, but she also thought it was important for young women to realize that they DID have options besides continuing a crisis pregnancy. She likened it to how people will often say, "I love my daughter very much; I just wish I'd waited to have sex until I was ready to raise a family." Because while abortion ends a life that has already begun, and abstaining merely does not begin that life, the effect of both on the existence of a specific child is the same.

    That's the closest I've ever heard. Even at the time I found it fairly surprising.

    Posted by: Alexandra at May 24, 2010 3:52 PM

    Her views had since matured

    I see. So, the mature view is, "I regret having this kid." Maturity couldn't possibly be accepting responsibility for one's own actions and responsibility for the life which resulted from those actions.

    Makes total sense.


    Posted by: Kel at May 24, 2010 4:18 PM

    Because while abortion ends a life that has already begun, and abstaining merely does not begin that life, the effect of both on the existence of a specific child is the same.

    Posted by: Alexandra at May 24, 2010 3:52 PM

    Alexandra - I don't think you mean the effect. Abstaining doesn't produce a child - it's a unknown, but abortion has a direct effect on an existing child. It's hard to talk about severing a relationship with a non-existent child, but abortion doesn't make you a non-mother. These are distinctly different things.

    Reality is - the relationship established by carrying the child is never a non-event. There are residuals in the way abstaining does not produce.

    Posted by: Chris Arsenault at May 24, 2010 4:26 PM

    Megan without an h. I hope you can have a baby someday when you "want" one. I know somebody already pointed this out, but you just may have aborted the only child you will ever be blessed to conceive. Lets see when you are married, 38 and desperate to have a child and month after month your period comes. No baby. Lets see you celebrate being "baby-less" then. I've seen it happen to people I know. I wouldn't be so quick to celebrate. You're 23 and obviously naive. I hope you will learn a few things through the years. I know I thought I knew everything at 23 also.

    Posted by: Sydney M. at May 24, 2010 4:49 PM

    No, I get what you're saying Chris - perhaps I didn't explain her point well. It was basically that so many people will say, "I love my child! I just wish I had waited until adulthood to have sex." Even though the direct effect of waiting to have sex is that that child would not exist today - something the parent doesn't wish in any way. We don't consider that a contradictory message at all.

    Of course, abortion is different than merely not conceiving - because someone is killed, as opposed to merely not-created. But the net result of having and raising that child or not - that specific child, with that unique DNA and personality, etc - is the same whether you abort the child or simply never conceive her. There is a world of difference between creating and killing someone, versus never creating her - morally, ethically, physically, etc - but in terms of existence (existentially? hm, probably not the right word, haha) it's pretty much the same. Perhaps that's the only way it IS the same.

    Posted by: Alexandra at May 24, 2010 4:54 PM

    "pervasive cultural stigma (the actual cause)."

    I get it. There shouldn't be any stigma associated with killing your baby.
    They don't want to FEEL bad about it. Poor things.

    I would say this demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of how human beings are made and how they function.
    That aversion to murder is natural - even killing another person in self-defense.

    And then to blame it on "patriarchy". Good grief when will women stop blaming men for their stupid decisions.......???

    And that Bruell character is just plain creepy. We really need laws that prevent this kind of coercion in abortion. This is abuse.

    Posted by: angel at May 24, 2010 5:22 PM

    "And then to blame it on "patriarchy". Good grief when will women stop blaming men for their stupid decisions.......???"

    Blaming the patriarchy means blaming all the men who didn't get her pregnant while absolving the one guilty male who did.

    Mondo bizarro

    Posted by: hippie at May 24, 2010 5:37 PM

    "...And then to blame it on "patriarchy". Good grief when will women stop blaming men for their stupid decisions.......???"

    Great point., angel. They need to stop whining about their problems and take it like a man.

    Posted by: Janet at May 24, 2010 5:40 PM

    This article was very honest. Abortion goes against the very nature of motherhood. Women instinctively know this. Even women who say "I don't ever want to be a mother" still struggle with the emotional war that rages in them when they abort.


    Posted by: Sydney M. at May 24, 2010 7:42 PM

    I commented to Megan. I told her it was time to woman up.

    Posted by: carla Author Profile Page at May 24, 2010 8:25 PM

    When I read some of the Pro-Choice comments sometimes I get upset but then I remind myself that some of the decisions they brag about were not their decisions at all. A lot of women are pressured into having an abortion. I think a lot of them come here for healing. So if you come here to rant and rave about how proud you are of what you done. This is for you, my hope for you is that you will experience more healing than you know what to do. And when you are healed, I hope you bring true healing to someone else. And may the peace of God give you real courage to stand when it would be easier not too.

    Posted by: myrtle miller at May 24, 2010 9:25 PM

    Posted by: Alexandra at May 24, 2010 4:54 PM

    Okay - you're talking about the child being present - with us today. I won't belabor the point, because if I understand you correctly, the girl was saying her life experience changed her perspective about sex and her preparedness, relationships etc. which does impact the present.

    In Hebrew there is a word for this - akhareit (ah-ka-reet) which is discerning future consequences. Most people don't comprehend akhareit, but it's associated with Yom Kippur which is the most holy day of the Jewish year. A translation is sort of like considering beforehand the judgement for your actions.

    Posted by: Chris Arsenault at May 24, 2010 9:31 PM

    My prayer is that all post abortive women walk out of the darkness and into the light. That they take responsibility for their abortions and the child that died in them and honor that little life by helping others.

    Many women are coerced and forced. Tis true. Coercion happened to me in the clinic when I was told it was just a bunch of cells and asked what kind of mother would I be? No job, no husband, no decent car...abortion was presented as the best thing I could do in my situation.

    Posted by: carla Author Profile Page at May 24, 2010 9:39 PM

    "I have never heard anyone who decided NOT to abort ever regret their decision."

    MaryLee, have you ever heard of a "wrongful birth" lawsuit? It's when the parents say they would have aborted their child if they had known of a (usually terminal) illness the child has/had.


    Posted by: KushielsMoon at May 24, 2010 9:42 PM

    I don't understand why some pro-choice individuals claim that PAS doesn't exist. It's as ridiculous as pro-lifers claiming that Postpartum Depression doesn't exist. Does it happen? Yes. Does it happen to EVERYONE? No. Does it still deserve to be recognized? YES. I don't believe every single woman feels regret or sadness after an abortion, but there are many who do. And I personally think it's insensitive to ignore the women who DO feel regret just because you don't want anything negative coming out against abortion. If you want to keep it legal at least be honest about it, inform women of their choices, don't sugarcoat it or cover up the very real pain that many women experience because of abortion.

    Posted by: militarywifey at May 24, 2010 9:54 PM

    I feel nothing but pity for this mom. Again people feel the need to BLAME someone for something!!
    She wished that she could have killed Evan?? The boy she loved? Sick. Hope this is an isolated case.

    For all of the moms who were in certain situations that were difficult the question remains just how many wish they had killed the child they now know and love?? How many women regret giving birth and having that baby?

    If one of my children gets a disease that I wasn't told was genetic can I sue and say that dang you should have at least given me the option to kill my boy?????!!!!!!

    Posted by: carla Author Profile Page at May 24, 2010 10:19 PM

    Wrongful birth suits, in my opinion, are a legal travesty that future generations are going to read about with both disbelief and horror. Going to court to say that the birth of your child was wrong and that you wish your child had never been born should be considered emotional abuse of your child.

    And what's going to stop the scope of wrongful birth suits from expanding? If it's legal to sue because you weren't told your unborn child had Down syndrome and you would have had an abortion if you'd known, why not sue because the ultrasound technician mistakenly told you that you were pregnant with a boy, and you would have had an abortion if you'd known it was a girl because you didn't want a girl? Why should that be considered more abhorrent than filing suit because you weren't given the information to decide to abort your baby with Down syndrome? Because healthy baby girls have more inherent value than babies with Down syndrome?

    I'm not mentally perfect. I have depression and ADD. Where would I rank, then - better than people with Down syndrome, but not as good as people who don't have any medical conditions or learning disabilities? Or does it not matter, becauase I had the good fortune to be conceived by parents who had spent ten years trying to have a baby? Does that make me more worthy of life?

    Posted by: Marauder at May 24, 2010 11:02 PM

    To me it's the same as selective abortion. If you really think about it when parents want children who look perfect or to be perfect I think it's because they see their children as representing themselves and the reason they do this is to compensate for what they perceive to be their own inadequacies. I also have ADD and mild depression. I recently started taking Wellbutrin and feel so much better.

    Posted by: myrtle miller at May 24, 2010 11:23 PM

    I also pray that God gives them the courage and grace to forgive those who stole so much from them and that their souls would be made perfectly whole. And that they would know it's o.k. to cry because in measured grief there is also healing.

    Posted by: myrtle miller at May 24, 2010 11:32 PM

    I think a lot of the issues people have with accepting the children God gives them--whatever their abilities, genders, hair color, all those things that God never gave us the authority to decide, yet some try to do anyway through killing or leaving frozen children who do not meet their specs--has to do with a mistaken notion of how God forms families.

    A family is a group of people that forms out of the love of two people unified in marriage, through the act of marriage, and sometimes also through adoption. But today a sadly common view is that a family is made up of slots. You have the Mommy, the Daddy, the Son, and the Daughter. So many people talk about how many kids they want--2. Or even 5 or 6. And so maybe the family that wants 5 will be okay with having a "defective" child or an adoptive child, because there are still slots they can fill with normal, biological children. But for those who only want 1 or 2, adoption is a last resort, because adopting their only child would mean that they lost a slot for a child of their own genetics. If they adopt a child of a different race they will never have a child who looks like them, even superficially. And if they conceive a daughter, they will never have a son (and vice versa) if they only plan on one. And if they always had a daughter slot and a son slot, what happens when that second slot is due to be filled and they discover he is another boy? At very least, disappointment. And what child deserves to be welcomed that way?

    But if one accepts whatever God sends, if I believe He is infinitely more capable of planning my family than I ever could be, then if He leads us down the path of adoption, the child I adopt would be a gain. I haven't lost a "biological child slot" because I don't believe my family is made up of slots. Had my second child been a daughter, my joy at seeing her for the first time would not have been tinged with sadness that I might never have a son (as things stand, God has chosen to give us a daughter and a son so far). As my son grows and accomplishes "firsts" I don't have to think that they are also lasts for me, and cry over what might have been. And--because God is perfect and knows me perfectly, and His will is good--even if he only gives me these two precious living children, I will not feel like I have failed or something is missing that must be rectified if I don't fill a certain number of slots, because these two will be the children God has given me (and believe me, that would be harder for me than if God gave me many). There are members of my family missing, but we will be reunited in Heaven. Had they been born, if it were possible, I would still have had my daughter and son. They don't have to live with the burden that they live only because they have siblings who died (against my will, but the same goes if I had killed them). If somehow, God had allowed me 12 children under 6, I would be thankful for each one. And I am thankful for however many children I have--I am not sure--but God created them and had a purpose for each of them. While I couldn't have had all of my children because they were conceived less than 9 months apart, I don't have to live with the knowledge that if Joseph and Isaiah had been born, I would have prevented Hannah and Peter from existing, or even killed them. I left it in God's hands, and God has been good.

    Posted by: ycw at May 25, 2010 5:04 AM

    Yes, I know about "wrongful life" suits....I'm not saying these hard cases don't exist (though I think there's something wrong with people who feel their child was a "mistake").....I'm saying I have never met anyone who decided to have their baby and regretted it. I certainly don't regret having my baby, even though it was challenging. I know several people who respected their child's life and don't question their "choice" to have their baby.

    It really irks me when pro-aborts deny the existence of PAS....it makes them look incredibly foolish.

    Posted by: MaryLee at May 25, 2010 8:53 AM

    I have a hard time understanding the mindset of someone who finds out that their child has a terminal illness and will die shortly after birth and they decide to have an abortion. Kill him before he dies naturally. I often wonder if the motive is fear and if the pressure to abort comes from the medical community.

    There are AMAZING resources out there!!


    Posted by: carla Author Profile Page at May 25, 2010 9:03 AM

    ycw, wonderfully put.

    Posted by: Laurie at May 25, 2010 10:02 AM

    Honestly, whats next? a wrongful birth lawsuit because your child grew up to be a cashier and you had your heart set on being the parents of a doctor?

    GUESS WHAT? sometimes your children don't look the way you envisioned, or grow up to be in the profession you hoped etc...

    Its time to love and accept our children as the gifts from God that they are. GIFTS. Not RIGHTS. GIFTS. And its quite rude to tell the Giver of the gift that the gift He has given isn't quite up to OUR standards.

    Posted by: Sydney M. at May 25, 2010 11:53 AM

    Sydney said, "It's quite rude to tell the Giver of the gift that the gift He has given isn't quite up to OUR standards."

    That's especially so when the children we create (with His blessing) aren't up to His standards. God created the original people somewhat like Himself so that they could glorify and enjoy Him forever. However, the good people became evil. They are populating the earth with many beings in their own corrupted image, not God's.

    In amazing grace God still valued them, even deigning to become one of them in the person of Jesus Christ. He is their Father, and all who seize the opportunity are eventually remade into His likeness. Whether or not that likeness is being restored, God has commanded that the life of every single human being is to be treated as His property. He has not given us the authority to end it. (Only the civil government, acting as His minister, has the power of the sword.)

    Posted by: Jon at May 25, 2010 2:31 PM