(Prolifer)ations 7-6-10

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by Susie Allen, host of the blog, Pro-Life in TN

  • Sarah Flashing at Women of Faith in Culture asks the question, "Is IVF a sin?" and points out the trouble with the Christian sentiment which states, "if you have prayed about it and strongly feel it is the right thing to do, then go for it."...
  • Big Blue Wave revisits the plight of pro-life Canadian sidewalk counselor Linda Gibbons, who has served almost as much collective jail time for her "crimes" as female murderer and rapist Karla Holmolka.

  • At Coming Home, Dr. Gerard Nadal addresses the need for less territoriality and greater sharing of resources within the pro-life movement in order to end abortion.

  • Genuine GOP Mom hosts a video from Fr. Frank Pavone's series on praying to end abortion, and quotes a statement from Priests for Life:
  • When the rich young man came up to Jesus and asked what he had to do to inherit eternal life, Jesus said "you have to keep the commandments." The first commandment He mentioned was "You Shall Not Kill." There is hardly anything you can do that's worse to a person than to end that person's life. Preservation of life is a fundamental good and the taking of life is a fundamental evil.
    View the video below:


    Comments:

    Hi Jill,

    Thanks for the citation. There seems to be a problem with the hyperlink.

    God Bless,

    Gerry

    Posted by: Gerard Nadal at July 6, 2010 3:53 PM


    Thanks, Gerry! Fixed! :)

    Posted by: Kelli Author Profile Page at July 6, 2010 4:00 PM


    Kelli, You're the best. Thanks

    Posted by: Gerard Nadal at July 6, 2010 5:08 PM


    With the story about IVF, we see the problem with using sacred scripture in a way that it not meant to be used. Sola Scriptura strikes again.

    "I don’t know that IVF is a sin. I have issues with it, but they are only my opinion, and I have no Biblical reference for it or any other reference."

    There are countless situations in life for which there is no obvious scripture passage to look up for an answer.

    Speaking of the Bible, where in the Bible does it say that as along as we pray about a moral issue, whatever we "feel" about it becomes the correct answer? With this approach, there can be no truth.

    Running to the Bible looking for proof texts for (enter moral issue or situation) is to totally misunderstand and misuse sacred scripture.

    Posted by: psalm at July 6, 2010 6:44 PM


    With the story about IVF, we see the problem with using sacred scripture in a way that it not meant to be used. Sola Scriptura strikes again.

    "I don’t know that IVF is a sin. I have issues with it, but they are only my opinion, and I have no Biblical reference for it or any other reference."

    There are countless situations in life for which there is no obvious scripture passage to look up for an answer.

    Speaking of the Bible, where in the Bible does it say that as along as we pray about a moral issue, whatever we "feel" about it becomes the correct answer? With this approach, there can be no truth.

    Running to the Bible looking for proof texts for (enter moral issue or situation) is to totally misunderstand and misuse sacred scripture.

    Posted by: psalm at July 6, 2010 7:02 PM


    With the story about IVF, we see the problem with using sacred scripture in a way that it not meant to be used. Sola Scriptura strikes again.

    "I don’t know that IVF is a sin. I have issues with it, but they are only my opinion, and I have no Biblical reference for it or any other reference."

    There are countless situations in life for which there is no obvious scripture passage to look up for an answer.

    Speaking of the Bible, where in the Bible does it say that as along as we pray about a moral issue, whatever we "feel" about it becomes the correct answer? With this approach, there can be no truth.

    Running to the Bible looking for proof texts for (enter moral issue or situation) is to totally misunderstand and misuse sacred scripture.
    Posted by: psalm at July 6, 2010 7:02 PM
    *************************

    Respectfully, I'm not so sure this is a "Sola Scriptura" problem. Christ has given us the Holy Spirit Who will guide us into all truth. Problem is, people are quick to invent their own "truths" and wholly disregard the Truth of Scripture, warping it and molding it to create a god in their own image.

    Christians who follow the tenets of Scripture and seek to live a life of holiness and purity, following the Holy Spirit's leading (and not seeking to justify their own sin by twisting Scripture), who pray, "not My will, but Thy will be done" are much less likely to fall into the trap of "whatever you feel is right, go for it."

    The problem is people using "prayer" as an excuse and guise to cover over the fact that they are not submitting to God's will but their own. It's "God, bless this path I've chosen," instead of "God, show me Your path and Your will, not my own." Father, not My will, but Thine be done.

    I do believe that's in the Bible. ;)

    Posted by: Kelli Author Profile Page at July 6, 2010 10:49 PM


    A bit off topic here. I am prolife...

    I am so tired of PChoicers signs that say "My body My Choice". What if they saw signs being held that says:

    "I can KILL my child in the womb if deemed incovenient"

    "I can KIll my baby in the womb if I want to...This should be kept legal"

    You think this would somehow stir anything?

    Just a thought.

    Posted by: M at July 7, 2010 9:58 AM


    M,

    Shhhh...the pro-aborts don't want people to learn the Truth about what they support.

    Posted by: RSD at July 7, 2010 12:39 PM


    "Christians who follow the tenets of Scripture and seek to live a life of holiness and purity, following the Holy Spirit's leading"
    **********************

    Sure but different people will come to different conclusions as to where the Holy Spirit is leading them.

    I'm not sure how you can follow the tenets of Scripture without having a legitimate authoritative Church to help guide you.

    "Problem is, people are quick to invent their own "truths" and wholly disregard the Truth of Scripture, warping it and molding it to create a god in their own image."

    I agree but how do we know what the truth of scripture is? WHO can tell us the truth so we don't end up creating a god in our own image? There are somewhere around 35,000 different "Bible alone" truths out there in the form of protestant denominations. Which one of these denominations is right? Which one can claim to speak with full authority on faith and morals?

    None of them can.

    So, I think within the context of this particular situation, the heart of the problem is sola scriptura along with other issues as well.

    I'm just sayin....

    Posted by: psalm at July 7, 2010 3:39 PM


    psalm, I'm gonna take a wild stab in the dark here: you're Catholic, right? :D

    If the Catholics on this board really get miffed by the broad generalizations made by those of us who are "ignorant" Protestants, it's a two-way street.

    I could start pointing out things the Catholic Church teaches which are contrary to Scripture, but out of respect for my Catholic friends on this board, I'm going to refrain.

    I've already told you Who gives us the Truth of Scripture. The Holy Spirit. Your argument is apparently with Christ, not with me. The fact that you are choosing to downplay the Holy Spirit's power and actions in the lives of believers speaks volumes to me.

    Posted by: Kel at July 7, 2010 4:16 PM


    "psalm, I'm gonna take a wild stab in the dark here: you're Catholic, right? :D"

    Yep

    "by those of us who are "ignorant" Protestants"

    To be clear. I never used the word ignorant.

    "I could start pointing out things the Catholic Church teaches which are contrary to Scripture"

    I am assuming you are talking about Catholic doctrine.

    Actually, you would be pointing out things you think are contrary to scripture and I would explain to you how they are not. I have heard them all (supposedly anti-Biblical Catholic teachings) and you can find the Catholic explanation from countless authentic Catholic sources and good apologists. I have some friends who run a Catholic apologetic facebook page if you are interested.

    http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=195477352516&ref=ts

    There are many misunderstandings about what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

    "I've already told you Who gives us the Truth of Scripture. The Holy Spirit."

    Yes, and apparently the Holy Spirit is confused because there are 35,000 contradicting versions of truth. This can't be the work of the holy spirit.

    The points I made in my previous posts still stand. To answer with "the Holy Spirit" is to dodge the issues I brought up.

    Anyway, my comments weren't made in order to start a debate. Been there done that many times before and right now I can't spare the time. Do some honest research and you will find the answers.

    Posted by: psalm at July 7, 2010 7:22 PM


    Are you on facebook, psalm? Friend me. My name is Nicholas A Scoville.

    Posted by: Bobby Bambino at July 7, 2010 7:44 PM


    Bobby,

    I added you.

    Dave

    Posted by: psalm at July 7, 2010 7:52 PM


    This can't be the work of the holy spirit.

    Could you explain what you believe to be versions of truth which are in contradiction? Because even though there are varying denominations, I don't personally see that as a bunch of "contradictory truths." I married a (now former) Lutheran, graduated from a Nazarene college, attend an Assembly of God church, sing at a Lutheran church, and have Baptist, Pentecostal, Nazarene, and Christian denomination friends. There are no doctrinal differences which I perceive that would prevent me from attending one of their services and worshiping with them. None. As for denominations which hold to things in clear contradiction to the Bible (promotion/acceptance of homosexuality or abortion, for example), I don't attend those churches, nor do I believe they have been led by the Holy Spirit to those positions, as they clearly contradict Scripture.

    There are apparently things about many Protestant churches which you also don't understand. I'm sure I have much to learn about Catholicism, though I assure you, what I already know I learned from very devout Catholics. And I cannot agree with many of their beliefs. I used the term "ignorant" because that is very much how a number of Catholics here have treated the Protestants (me included). Your comments regarding "sola scriptura" pretty much oozed with disdain. I've been told I need to look into Medjugorje (already have) and the stigmata (that, too). And that if I'd only actually do the research (which I have, for over 15 years now) then I'd come to agreement with it. It's condescending, to continually be treated as if you're an idiot (by other Christians) because you actually follow the Bible. I get it from the world... I certainly don't need to get that crap from Catholics, too.

    I don't purposely go around the boards here picking fights with Catholics, and I, like most of the Protestants here, have a great deal of respect for my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ. What you did was insult Protestants, pretty directly, with your comment about Sola Scriptura. The fact that you can't see that maybe the rest of us actually do follow the Holy Spirit and actually do know Christ and cling to Him for our only salvation is very sad to me.

    Thanks for the discussion, Dave.

    Hi, Bobby. Have I ever told you that you and Gerard are two of the Catholics I have the greatest respect for? Well, now I have.

    Posted by: Kel at July 7, 2010 9:16 PM


    For me, Its not the religion, its the relationship with Christ.

    Posted by: M at July 8, 2010 7:35 AM


    Um, Kelli:

    "I could start pointing out things the Catholic Church teaches which are contrary to Scripture, but out of respect for my Catholic friends on this board, I'm going to refrain."

    "Because even though there are varying denominations, I don't personally see that as a bunch of 'contradictory truths.'"

    "I, like most of the Protestants here, have a great deal of respect for my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ."

    "As for denominations which hold to things in clear contradiction to the Bible [...], I don't attend those churches, nor do I believe they have been led by the Holy Spirit to those positions."

    If you feel that some denominations--in which you include Catholicism, though you also say you see Catholics as brothers and sisters in Christ--teach things which are opposed to Scripture, you're kind of proving psalm/Dave's argument.

    Signed,
    Also not a Roman Catholic.

    Posted by: ycw at July 10, 2010 3:49 AM


    Hi ycw. I guess I should clarify. I believe there are many in the Catholic church, Baptist church, Lutheran church, and (fill in the blank) church who truly are believers in Christ and follow Him.

    However, there are also many in the churches who do not. I don't see denomination as a determinant for salvation. I don't see that one needs to be a member of any particular church in order to be saved through Christ. His body is His body, and the ones who truly follow Him will be known by their fruits.

    Posted by: Kel at July 10, 2010 11:22 AM


    Hi ycw. I guess I should clarify. I believe there are many in the Catholic church, Baptist church, Lutheran church, and (fill in the blank) church who truly are believers in Christ and follow Him.

    However, there are also many in the churches who do not. I don't see denomination as a determinant for salvation. I don't see that one needs to be a member of any particular church in order to be saved through Christ. His body is His body, and the ones who truly follow Him will be known by their fruits.

    Posted by: Kel at July 10, 2010 11:35 AM


    Kelli,
    Just in general, IMHO,
    I think studying HISTORY is the key to understanding the fullness of Jesus' Church. We need the Bible, but if, by circumstance, we are fortunate enough to have access to the history behind it as well, we shouldn't disregard it.

    Posted by: Janet at July 10, 2010 11:48 AM


    Janet, I agree. A good place to start is Jewish history. And the Bible's historicity is excellent, too.

    Studying the Renaissance and the Reformation are also quite useful.

    Posted by: Kel at July 10, 2010 11:52 AM


    Hey Janet, have you seen the new Ignatius Catholic Study Bible New Testament? I'm just beginning my studies with it, but so far I am totally impressed. Scott Hahn's hand is evident in the footnotes, and I sure wish this gem had been around when I was balking at coming into full communion with the RCC!

    Posted by: Fed Up at July 10, 2010 2:42 PM


    I must say that I love all of my brothers and sisters in Christ who include Lutherans, Baptists, Pentecostals, Catholics and others who are in this fight for the lives of unborn babies. Through this blog I have met prolifers who profess no faith at all but have learned to love them as well. But I have learned the most from my brothers and sisters in Christ and found out that every time I try to put Jesus Christ and His church into a box he proves me wrong. Some of the most dedicated, loving people I have met over the years have been those of other denominations than my own. God loves us and woos us with an everlasting love. He hates sin because it destroys us and our relationship with Him. He loves sinners but in His holiness cannot and will not condone our sin, his son Jesus paid too great a price, the ultimate price, His life to redeem us from our sin. God could not even look on His Son on the cross covered with our sin because it was so despicable to him. No amount of political correctness, whitewashing or wishy washiness from me or anyone else will make our sin acceptable to Him. I have family members in the ministry who have heard every excuse imaginable by "Christian" men and women alike who are living in sin, destroying their families, wounding their children, abandoning their spouses and children, consumed by greed, deceitful and being a stumbling block to new Christians. We must put our total faith and trust in God that He will keep us from the clutches of Satan, the enemy of our souls, and that God will help us to win this fight in spite of ourselves, our differences and our misunderstandings. May God help us all. I am going to pray a short prayer.

    Heavenly Father,

    I pray for renewed strength, strong faith and spiritual weapons for your people to fight the fiery darts of our enemy who comes to rob, steal, KILL and DESTROY life inside and outside of the womb. Who comes to destroy healthy marriage and families that you alone created as male and female to be fruitful (physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually), multiply and have dominion over the earth. We desperately need you to reveal yourself and your truth to men, women and children all over this earth (red, yellow, black and white) so they will come into relationship with you and know you through your son, Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. "Holiness without no man (or woman) can see the Lord". Help us before we destroy ourselves and our future generations. Amen.

    Posted by: Prolifer L at July 10, 2010 9:08 PM


    Amen.

    Posted by: Praxedes at July 10, 2010 10:25 PM


    Fed Up,

    What a coincidence... I was at a religious bookstore just yesterday (looking at bibles to buy as gifts for college-bound nephews) and a woman who worked there showed it to me. (Were you there too?)
    I bought the NAB Study Bible which has both the NT and OT for them because it's more compact, but I'll be interested to look at the Ignatius Study Bible for myself when the OT comes out too. I bought them each a Catechism too. :) I didn't realize you are a convert. Congratulations. You guys are the best!!

    Posted by: Janet at July 10, 2010 10:52 PM


    Prolifer L,

    Very beautifully stated. Thank you.
    "Amen".

    Posted by: Janet at July 10, 2010 10:58 PM


    Blessings to you Janet and Praxedes. We are in a spiritual warfare of epidemic proportions. Our enemy is out to destroy life, men, women, children, the disabled, the elderly, and to redefine marriage, the family, motherhood and fatherhood (the bedrock of civilization). Indeed "the hand that rocks the cradle does rule the world" and when innocent babies are destroyed in their mother's womb we are indeed in danger of self-destruction. God bless you and good night.

    Posted by: Prolifer L at July 10, 2010 11:13 PM


    Prolifer L, thank you so much for those words. Amen. God bless you. :)

    Posted by: Kel at July 11, 2010 12:49 AM


    Amen! Thank you for the lovely prayer, Prolifer L.

    Hi Janet, I think it's wonderful that you got your nephews study Bibles and the CCC. May they always appreciate your concern for their spiritual lives :) I used the NAB study version for a few years. I learned a lot and it was very helpful.

    Yes, I am a convert, which is the reason I'm so excited about the Ignatius study NT. It seizes what seemed like "missed opportunities" in the NAB to cross-reference the CCC and scriptural support for doctrine, including Marian. Coming from a sola scriptura background, that was a big issue for me and the NAB didn't fully satisfy me in that regard. A few weeks ago, when I first opened my Ignatius NT, I found an article that brought tears to my eyes. I still turn to that page every day and re-read it. And I pray that this information will help others overcome quickly one of the roadblocks that took me years--more than I care to admit--to get past. Anyway, please don't think I'm being critical of your choice for your nephews! It's just that I am filled with joy to finally have a study NT that more fully references scriptural support for Catholic doctrine, including beliefs and practices often cited by non-Catholics as lacking scriptural basis.

    BTW, the wait for an OT Ignatius study version might be a long one. I read somewhere they will be coming out with individual volumes for the OT books instead of consolidating them into a single volume as they finally did this year with the NT.

    Blessings to you and your nephews!

    Posted by: Fed Up at July 11, 2010 3:04 PM


    Fed Up,
    I understand your excitement about the Ignatius study version! It sounds perfect for apologetics. I hope you enjoy your journey!! I'm sure I'll be getting the NT for myself soon.

    I'm reading "Catholic Christianity" by Kreeft - it's almost like a handy outline of the CCC with biblical cross references - good for quick answers to common questions.

    God's blessings to you and yours!

    Posted by: Janet at July 11, 2010 9:33 PM


    Posted by: Fed Up at July 10, 2010 2:42 PM

    After reading the first three or four reviews of the Ignatius version on Amazon, I may have to go out TODAY and buy it! Thanks for the heads up!

    Posted by: Janet at July 12, 2010 9:36 AM



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