this is where we're at today thanks to legalized abortion, arguing over ridiculous, utterly ignorant points.

yup, the utter stupidity of it remains incomprehensible.
The "logic" of abortion has leaked into the practice of medicine and law, into our judiciary system, our international policies etc.
We now have a legal system that tells us an unborn baby is not living when according to all the laws of science it is most definitely alive.

Born alive infant protection act
Not yet born alive infant protection act.

It is an infant and not an adult. So it is child abuse also.

Presumably an autopsy will be done. It will determine whether the baby took a breath or not.

"House Bill 2020, which passed the House in 2005, proposed to create the crime of assault of an unborn fetus and expand criminal homicide to include the death of an unborn fetus. The bill stated a person did not commit criminal homicide if the death of the unborn fetus occurred during a lawful abortion. But abortion-rights advocates opposed it."

On what grounds??? Good grief!

Sickening. I'm not familiar with state laws in Oregon, but if they have a law that says that babies are "legally not alive" until birth, that is the most retarded thing I've read today.

I suspect that there is no such law, and that the prosecutor is simply seeking to curry favor with all the local proaborts. Politics trumps science.

This is wrong on so many levels- wrong because I want to scream at those "pro-woman, pro-choice" supporters that what they are doing is leading to the deaths of women and the torture of children. Wrong because the number one cause of death for pregnant women is murder. And wrong because this human being will receive no justice, and the public records won't even record his name.

I suppose that I mustn't lose temper though, with pro-choicers, because being hateful would only make me pro-choice and then we get nowhere.

But things like this are so exhausting. Why can't he receive personhood? Over a stupid breath? Born people can stop breathing all of the time. The victims of polio weren't capable of breathing without special equipment...a breath?

So frustrating...

Those liberal Nazis in Oregon are something, arn't they. No wonder the democrat party is considered the party of death.

I agree with you Vannah! It's maddening! It's the death of 2 people, not one. All this personhood cr*p is utter hogwash! Yet the insanity of it is this. If any woman this pregnant were killed or gutted on her way to an abortion clinic, it would be swept under the rug. I was very disappointed to read that Laci Peterson had decided to have an abortion had she had tested positive for a DS child:(

I know that this isn't the time to be angry, but since I can't help feeling angry that the pro-choice movement is, in part, responsible for this woman's death, and they are responsible for this child's stance in the eyes of the law, I have decided that it is literally impossible to be both "pro-choice" and pro-woman at the same time.

You are so right, Jill... except for one small detail. In the 2nd-to-last paragraph, "45 other states" should say "35 other states," and in the last paragraph "35 states" should be "25 states."

bro Dave

When society chooses to ignore or deny reality, the predictable result is continuing and increasing denial culminating in the insanity we now observe in our midst.

It is comical watching the 'apologists' climbing further and further out on the rotten limb of their own fertile and fetid imaginings.

How long will before the humanist humpty dumpty has his great fall and how many devotees will frenetically scramble to reassemble the god who could not save himself?

yor bro ken

I was reading a book about a MI medical examiner. He was talking about the death of pregnant women. In his opinion, it was 100% the murder/death of 2 seperate people, but he added that this was not acceptable to some..[the spoiled brat pro-aborts], who DEMAND that others use their language. Fetus, not baby. This ticks people off. Including the MI M.E.!!!!

We all know it's a baby. It's just that some don't want it to be because that would point out the obvious. Every abortion kills a baby by a woman's choice!

And it's a bitter pill to swallow because everyone involved in abortion has to speak the truth.

what do you expect? Oregon may be a beautiful state, but they legalized KILLING ONESELF through physician ASSISTANCE.

This baby was WANTED. How can they not see this was a full human being?

It is a baby that is killed in one state but not a baby that is killed in another. Makes perfect sense.

The illogic logic of the proaborts will be their undoing.

I know Liz and Carla, ever feel like you're going nuts? They call us Right Wing nuts. You've got that right. You pro-deathers will drive a person nuts!

It's amazing how far we've fallen as a society. I caught a few minutes of an old classic film the other day, "The Incredible Mr. Limpet", 1964 with Don Knotts. It's a really cute story for young kids (3-8 maybe?) but what really struck me was how the movie exuded goodness, morality, righteousness, respect, for elders, police, government, God, women . . .

I guarantee you if Letterman tried to pull the crap he did the other night on a government official and his/her young daughter in 1964, he would have been ostricized and condemned by the media, thrown off the air and probably arrested and jailed for slander and obscenity.

Like Jesus said, "As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the days of the Son of Man..." Lu17.26-30

Under current state law, a child must have taken a breath in order to be considered a victim.
--------

So you're not a human being unless you breath.

Yet waterboarding is torture?

But not breathing means you're not human worthy of those inalienable rights.

So therefore when waterboarding is used to stop one from breathing it makes them non-human, and therefore not victims of torture.

I see how this works... very, very practical, this moral relativity.

Poor baby. I wonder what his name was? And I wonder how the family of Heather Snively feels about this injustice? They've been through too much already with their daughter's brutal murder to have to be forced to contend with politics that just refuse to let people have rights.

YES......... IT'S THE PHLOGISTON traversing the airway which confers the spirit of life!!!

Strange religion these Lefties have.

I do remember reading this crazy murderess has two other kids and a mail significant other.

Our society is in a complete mess.

But let's worry about the feeeeeeeeeeeeeelings of these dysfunctional people a little more.

Christian brothers and sisters:

The world is dying. The painful and excriciating evidence is all around us.

We are here to help save those that don't want to die with it.

Remember that Jesus said this, "I have overcome the world".

He is the answer.

I want to know who's rhetoric motivated this woman to commit this double homicide. After all, crazed killers never act on their own, unless of course they're gunning down military recruiters or planning to blow up synagogues, so some ethnic, racial, religious, or political group is responsible for this woman's actions.

Oregon Right to Life is trying to fix this. See http://www.lifenews.com/state4225.html

That breath law must be changed. We all know that when an unborn infant is strong enough to live outside the womb, it leaves all the protection that the mom's body can provide. How tragic that those protective walls would be barbarically violated... that the baby, who was not ready to be separated from the life-supporting umbilical, would be yanked out from his mother. A state that ignores this injustice is just as barbaric. There are babies that are born that cannot breathe on their own. If an Oregon doctor were to kill those babies before hooking them up to a breathing apparatus, no one could charge him with murder.

I wonder if this girl is a part of the "teenage girl terrorist watch list"?

Why aren't Liberals screaming that all teenage girls are terrorists?

Hey Jano, are you listening?

Posted by: Mary at June 11, 2009 12:09 PM

"I want to know who's rhetoric motivated this woman to commit this double homicide."

-----------------------------------------------------

The recently departed George Tiller, and the still living to kill and killing to live, Leroy Carhart, Warren Hern and the 'dead babies R us crowd' and their unnamed co-conspirators everywhere, also known commonly as the 'lame scream media' and to name one name the 'National Organization of Leftist, Liberal and Lesbian Women', a relatively small but loud group of embittered females.

Their recent rhetoric has empowered women every where to kill their prenatal children, even another woman's prenatal children and, if the other woman is killed in the quest, it is acceptable collateral damage.

This domestic terrorism demonstrates a pattern that can only be described as intelligently designed to instill dread and fear in the hearts and minds of pregnant women every where.

yor bro ken

Mary,

US government seeks to rein in executive pay

Democrats want to push administration on US corporate pay strategies

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Administration-Rein-in-pay-apf-15500519.html?.v=6

------------------------------------------------------

Do you remeber the days of wage and price controls instituted by the federal government in the 70's when Jimmy Carter was POTUS and he measured his effectivness by the 'misery index'?

yor bro ken

Vannah,

Per the life news link above,

Snively's family said she loved her unborn baby and was looking forward to his birth. She had planned to name her baby John Stephen, according to a Charleston Daily Mail report and had recently moved from West Virginia to Oregon to be with her boyfriend.

This is exactly the sort of thing that makes me embarrassed to say I live in Oregon. And you guys have no idea how clueless the people here are. They honestly believe that they're in the majority on all subjects, that MSNBC is an unbiased news program, and that abortion is about the greatest thing since sliced bread.

And some of these people are friends of mine. Plenty of them accept the Eucharist week after week. Even our priests nowadays are whitewashed.

I wonder what some of our senators would say if their pregnant wife got assaulted?

Question:
Does it sound to anyone else like she was trying to take the baby... like, for herself?

Poor baby. I wonder what his name was?
Posted by: Vannah at June 11, 2009 11:34 AM
***************

One article said she was planning to name him John.

And MaryRose, yes, I believe Roberts was befriending this woman in order to take her baby and raise it as her own. Otherwise, why call the police and say "My baby isn't breathing"?

MaryRose, that's what I thought when I first heard the story. I've heard of women doing that before. A scary statistic is that the leading cause of death of prenant women is murder.

Tiller, Carheart, and Pengraft, are murder's, and they will all have to answer to God for their deeds. RJ

John is such a sweet, strong name. Terribly sad news.

As a PC woman, I will agree that the fluctuations on state laws determining homicide, infanticide, etc makes no sense and is arbitrary...but keep in mind that this would only continue if RvW is ever removed as a federal law and brought to a state level - not only would laws on abortion vary state to state, but so would the laws determining the legalities of (heinous)cases like these. My position is, its either one or the other. Either you agree that a fetus is a living infant, a fully realized person and therefore should be assigned full protection under the law, or you don't.

That said - honestly, I think in high profile cases like Lacey Peterson, etc., assigning a law in the baby's name is purely symbolic and frankly, done out of sympathy. As horrified as I am by these crimes, do I think that the murderers of these women should be charged w/double homicide? No. But of course, they should be prosecuted for their crime to the woman to the fullest extent to the law and/or treated for their mental illness.

Danielle gets high marks for enduring and predictable consistency.

Air is magik.

Without at least one breath of it no baby is ever fully human.

The old sci-fi warning used to be, "Kill em quick before they breed."

Danielle's warning is, "Kill em quick before they breathe and become like the rest of us."

That is not biology, that is theology or superstition.

yor bro ken

"As horrified as I am by these crimes, do I think that the murderers of these women should be charged w/double homicide? No."

Danielle,

How about if te mother survived and the baby died. Should this women be charged wit homocide?

I am sure the family of Lacy Peterson would not take too kindly to any comments regarding their daughter and grandson's memory. Connor was loved by his mother even before the tragedy struck. It was obvious he was NOT a "Fetus" or a "piece of tissue" to HER. And he was WANTED very much. That's why he had a NAME.

These are HUMAN BEINGS we are talking about.

When I was younger (like kindergarten I think), one of my classmates lost a baby sibling. I can't remember if she was stillborn or if she died just a few hours after birth, but she was given a NAME because she was very much wanted and loved by her family before her birth.

How about if te mother survived and the baby died. Should this women be charged wit homocide?
Posted by: Jasper at June 11, 2009 8:18 PM

-No, Jasper, I don't - the same rationale would apply.

I am sure the family of Lacy Peterson would not take too kindly to any comments regarding their daughter and grandson's memory. Connor was loved by his mother even before the tragedy struck. It was obvious he was NOT a "Fetus" or a "piece of tissue" to HER. And he was WANTED very much. That's why he had a NAME.
Posted by: LizFromNebraska at June 11, 2009 8:20 PM

-You're right Liz, I'm sure they wouldn't, and an anon internet message board is certainly not the place to address someone directly tied to one of these sensitive and emotional cases. This is not a discussion meant for them - we're sharing our own beliefs and positions candidly.

And your points above were telling, and I agree....to HER, he WAS a baby, he had a name and he was a person. As is the case in most wanted pregnancies. It's personal. From my POV, any exchange with a woman or family who shares this viewpoint should be respected and rarely if ever, are you own personal politics and beliefs appropriate to divulge. If a pregnant friend of mine refers to her unborn by name or gender, then so do I. If she's less sentimental about it, I'll follow her lead there, as well.

So...first it was WE who were being unscientific, and just letting our emotions and relgion cloud our judgement, and now it's the pro-choicers who say "This is an extremely personal, emotional, religous decision, for a woman to decide if her baby is actually a baby!"

Can we have the rule book for awhile? I'm sure we can make it up as we go along just as well as you guys.

When the bodies were found, they found Connor's unique, separate body, Danielle. WE don't have FETUS showers, we have BABY showers. We don't prepare a nursery for the FETUS, we prepare a nursery for the BABY.

I think you need to read an embryology textbook and get a book on development of the unborn child.

All abortions KILL BABIES!

My prayers go out to the family of Heather Snively and her son John Steven. What a horrible tragedy. God bless you.