That second cartoon is making me want sausage rolled up in pancakes for breakfast. :oP

The second cartoon riminds me of Johnny Carson doing his Carnac the Magnificent stich.

Carnac hold the evelope to his forehead and speaks the answer to the unknown question,

"Lipstick and an whig on a jackass"

He then opens the envelope and reads the question,

What do you get when get when you cross a Nancy Pelossi with a Maxine Waters?

yor bro ken

I used to love that schtick Ken. Of course the obvious is:

"Lip augmentation, a nose job and more IVF"

Answer: What do you get when you give Nadya Suleman, mother of six on social assitance, a disability check?

I love how conservatives had no problem with forcing our kids to pay for a useless war in Iraq, but helping Americans?? OH GOD NOOOO!!!

Hypocrites.

That's what I was going to say reality - no one had any problem with it when it was Bush and the Republicans doing the spending.

Ditto reality and Kat. That's the real Sunday Funny for this week!

Reality, of course the far right would support another 700 billion in spending as long as it was spent killing people in Iraq. They just don't want it spent to create jobs in the US.

By the way, not a single comment bout the story of the week, the Bristol Palin interview. Was it something she said?

They just don't want it spent to create jobs in the US.
Posted by: Bystander at February 22, 2009 9:50 AM

... or to keep people in their homes. Or to help people afford health insurance.Or to..........

Bystander, if you go to the post "Happy Condom Week" you'll see there was some discussion about the Bristol Palin story in the comments. But you're right: It was very curious that Jill didn't write a post drawing attention to this interview. Yes, it was something she.. and her mother... said!

"By the way, not a single comment bout the story of the week, the Bristol Palin interview. Was it something she said?"

Stop picking on kids....liberal bullies are always good at that.

Thanks, asitis, I had skipped "Happy Condom Week" and there were good comments there.

Jasper, Bristol is an adult who decided to become an "advocate" in a national interview.

I am not "picking on Bristol", as her interview showed her to have much more common sense than her mother, especially when Bristol called abstinence-only "naive".

Bristol's message of realistic and comprehensive sex education is a valuable one- and her mother should listen to her, instead of horning in on her interview. I wish Bristol the best.

Stop picking on kids....liberal bullies are always good at that.

Posted by: Jasper at February 22, 2009 10:22 AM

Actually Jasper, we're not picking on kids.

How does a donkey give birth to piglets?

Leah 11:03am

Well, humans aren't always pregnant with humans.

How does a donkey give birth to piglets?

Posted by: Leah at February 22, 2009 11:03 AM

See, that why we MUST fight the evil IVF Leah: Who knows where it will lead!

Posted by: reality at February 22, 2009 9:31 AM

I love how conservatives had no problem with forcing our kids to pay for a useless war in Iraq, but helping Americans?? OH GOD NOOOO!!!

Hypocrites.

------------------------------------------------------

Speaking only as one conservative I did not like the idea of 'nation building' in Iraq and I did not like the idea of having to pay for it.

Not because I believe war is wrong or the Iraqi war is wrong, but because I find no provision in the US Constitution that even remotely hints of 'nation building' anywhere but in the United States of America.

Ask the soldiers and the families of the soldiers who have fought the fight and the Iraqi people who have both suffered and benefited in the process if they believe the war in Iraq to be 'worthless'.

I suggest they are in a better position to make that determination than you are.

yor bro ken

sure ken, ask the Iraqis who have lost loved ones if they are grateful to the US!

And ask the same here at home. You may find some here that will say it was worth it either because they truly believe in the war or it's the only way they can deal with their loss (i.e. that it had a purpose).

Posted by: asitis at February 22, 2009 9:27 AM

"Lip augmentation, a nose job and more IVF"

Answer: What do you get when you give Nadya Suleman, mother of six on social assitance, a disability check?

--------------------------------------------------

The disability check came before the additional 8 children. The 'welfare' and 'disability' checks are courtesy of the liberals and jackass/democrats with the whig and lipstick.

Some republicans have strayed over onto the liberal plantation and foundered eating that green, green grass of socialism.

It could be fatal, it always proves to be a failure.

yor bro ken

"The disability check came before the additional 8 children"

Did I say it didn't?????

"The 'welfare' and 'disability' checks are courtesy of the liberals and jackass/democrats with the whig and lipstick"

Okay first of all, what's a "whig"?

And are you suggesting that it is foolish to provide food stamps and other social assistance to poor and disabled children? I don't think it is. No, the only jackass here is this mother who used her disability settlement check to buy more babies and new lips and nose rather than support the children she already had. I'm sorry if "jackass" is cruel, given the dire straits she is now in largely of her own doing, but I'm just calling it as it is.

sure ken, ask the Iraqis who have lost loved ones if they are grateful to the US!
Posted by: asitis at February 22, 2009 12:25 PM

And ask the same here at home. You may find some here that will say it was worth it either because they truly believe in the war or it's the only way they can deal with their loss (i.e. that it had a purpose).

------------------------------------------------------

Or it could be that some souls, misguided as 'you' they may belileve they are, actually believe there are some things worth fighting for, worth killing for and even worth dying for.

'And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.'

Were the benefits derived worth the risking of life and possesions and reputation?

It would be beneficial for you to read what the decision to 'risk' actually 'cost' the signers of that document in terms of life, property and reputation (reputation at least in the immediate, history has since exonerated and affirmed their actions.)

I believe history would say 'yes'.

Freedom does come without costs. Freedom is not maintained without costs.

Costs=lives, property, reputation.

yor bro ken

Okay first of all, what's a "whig"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whig_Party_(United_States) !

Posted by: asitis at February 22, 2009 12:46 PM

Asitis,

You are still swatting at the fleas and ignoring the camel.

yor bro ken

whig= american politcal party pre-civil war displaced by the republican party some time after lincoln's election as presidident.

I actually fat fingered the key. Should have been 'wig'. But you knew that already.

Thanks Alexandra. I'd heard of Whigs. I'm not sure if Ken was getting at something there or if it was just a misspelled "wig" though. I suspect the latter given the context.....

Actually Ken, I'm not swatting at fleas. I do not believe the stimulus package is irresponsible.I believe Nadya Suleman is.

kbhvac at February 22, 2009 1:01 PM

your humility is once again shortlived. are you this annoying in real life too? You try to reflect Jesus Christ in your life but so often you reflect Cotton Mather instead.

Ms suleman has never cast as single vote in the California legislature or the US Congress.

Her disability/welfare checks are the 'fleas',
the jackass created stimulus package is the 'camel'.

Yes, it is foolishness of the highest order to reward bad behavior and to use a buracracy which consumes more than half of every dollar it recieves in adminstrative costs in an ill advised and ill conceived attempt to treat a symptom, instead of cure the disease.

Ms Suleman is not the camel, she is the flea.

yor bro ken

You're wacked. It's my understanding that her disbility check (~$165K I think) came from her employer. Separate from that, the government "welfare" is in the form of foodstamps and special aid to her older disabled kids. The goveernment isn't rewarding her bad behaviour - no, it's making sure those kids at least get food and special care.

She's in a whole other tent than the stimulus package. She's a camel on her own.

Asitis, the stimulus package does nothing to create jobs long term, and the "tax cuts" given to the working class are completley negligable. Do you really think an extrta 13 dollars a week is going to change anything?

Aside from that, everything from green golf carts for government workers to a radical, dangerous overhall of hospital procedure were included in this bill, which not a singel member of congress read before they voted.

As Rahm Emanuel said "never let a crisis go to waste!"

kbhvac - Obama may be president and only three republicans may have voted for it, but that didn't stop rep. don young from putting his own pork stamp on it (http://donyoung.house.gov/PressRelease.aspx?NewsID=1953)

You can say that the spending in Alaska is justified, but if it is then Rep. Young should have voted for the bill.

If the bill wasn't good, then why would Rep. Young hop on the gravy train?

Perhaps he's just following after his corrupt Alaskan Republican counterparts Gov. Palin (per diem for working from home) Ted Stevens (who in his time in office never saw a pork bill he didn't think tasted good).

How about things like 65% COBRA subsidy for any worker who has been laid off since September so that they can afford the health coverage they are being offered? How about jobs that will be created to keep people employed in the interim while the economy recovers and jobs start coming back? ......................

kbhvac at February 22, 2009 1:01 PM

your humility is once again shortlived. are you this annoying in real life too? You try to reflect Jesus Christ in your life but so often you reflect Cotton Mather instead.

Posted by: Yo La Tengo at February 22, 2009 1:10 PM

------------------------------------------------------

ylt, I am the humblest person I know. [rimshot]

'trying to reflect Jesus'.

I am attempting to visualize what that would look like, would actually entail.

You know I do not think that is something you can 'do', you can only 'be' a reflection.

I am that I am.

I think you mean 'in person' as in face to face. I am annoying to people who are illogical and/or irrational. Well I am sure I annoy people who sympathize with some or most of my views.

My momma loved me and God HE loves me and my wife and kids me and my friends love me.

Focus on the arguements advanced. Debunk. Repudiate. Disprove.

Lay out a fact based case. Then we shall see if 'your' conclusions are 'true'.

yor bro ken

Ken you can be annoying to logical people too. Buy you can also be funny sometimes too

Asitis, we're talking about immediate sustainable job growth. The people being laid off will not be helped by this bill. The jobs created are not in the right industries and do not address the core of the problem

As for COBRA, the cost of the employeer provided average healthcare plan is over 1000/month. Only allowing the subsidy to go to these government healthplans does nothing to help someone who can not afford such an expense. Instead, the subsidy money could be used to fund private health insurance or COBRA depending on the best option for the family. Short sightedly propping up COBRA does little to really help a family that was recently laid off.

I think it's ironic and silly how everything that Bush did was golden and honourable and everything that Obama is doing is the political equivalent to horse vomit. Maybe could we stop looking at the politician and start looking at the idea? Maybe you do genuinely believe this stimulus thing is a bad idea, but try not to automatically hate everything that Obama puts forward just because he's Obama. He may have some good ideas. You never know.

Leah, you're making some huge assumptions there.

First of all, I did not blindly support Pres. Bush. I was and am appalled at The Patriot Act as well as the often wasteful spending. Pres. Bush functioned as a fiscal liberal in many ways and I think it was to his detriment.

As for the stimulus plan, this isn't a knee jerk reaction. I formed my opinion from reading the actual bill, reading commentary on the bill and reading the writings of economists on both sides of the isle. I think that this stimulus bill will fail at its main goal of stimulating the economy while drastically shifting the way our country opperates. Obama may have some good ideas, but this is certainly not one of them.

Not you specifically, Lauren. Just in general that seems to be the tone around here.

The jobs created are not in the right industries and do not address the core of the problem

Posted by: lauren at February 22, 2009 1:49 PM

Lauren, what do you see as the core of the problem and how would YOU fix it then?

I see the core of the problem being an economic boom that was based on rising home prices, fueled by shady lending practices. Once that all came crashing down, pretty much every sector has felt it and as a result jobs are being lost across the board. Sure, certain sectors are harder hit, but that doesn't mean money should be directed to them. Some of them were bloated or inefficient. Others are just harder hit because people are cutting back in their spending in that area.

As for the COBRA subsidy, it does help people recently laid off. Granted, it might not make COBRA affordable for everyone offered it, but it will make it afforable for a whle lot more than the (something like) only 9% that could afford it before.

Leah, from what I've seen most commenters here share my rational for opposing the stimulus. We have all been very quick to call Pres. Bush on his lax economic policies (though we also praise the good). Pres. Obama has come out swinging and pushed through very radical policies. He has shown that he does not care what we think and that he will continue down his road despite our protests. We can only hope that somewhere there is an advisor who will stand up and tell him that his ideas are dangerous and that they will only hurt our economy. I'm not holding my breath.

And Lauren, no one is certain this package or any alternative will do the trick. But it's a whole lot better than doing nothing.

Pres. Obama has come out swinging and pushed through very radical policies. He has shown that he does not care what we think and that he will continue down his road despite our protests. Posted by: lauren at February 22, 2009 2:28 PM

So are you saying you oppose him on the stimulus package because you don't support his pro-choice position?

Asitis, I think they should let the failing institutions fail and reward the institutions who were honest to step into their places. I think that we should make it more profitable to own a business in America so that the jobs stay in America.

Right now we're essentially skrewing over (sorry for the term) the people who played by the rules. Instead of allowing them to step up to the plate we're forcing them to literally pay for the misdeeds and mistakes of others.

In addition to "bailing out" the cheats, they're funneling their money into short term "shovel ready" jobs instead of keeping that money to create long jobs within their own industry.

Of course, the average cost per job created is going to cost over 200,000 dollars in tax payer money. Why not just mail out 40K checks to all of these people and be done with it? We're spending huge ammounts of money on short term solutions. Most ridiculous, these short term solutions wont even BEGIN for several years. It's insane.

As for Cobra, I already said that one solution would be to allow the subsidies to go to people who buy insurance through the private sector. These plans are cheaper, albiet not as comprehensive, and more people could be covered for less money. COBRA isn't a sustainable option for most people, even with the new subsidies.

...instead of keeping that money to create long jobs within their own industry.
Posted by: Lauren at February 22, 2009 2:41 PM

A lot of the jobs being lost now are the result of the overall economy tanking. I think the idea of the stimulus package it to kick start the economy and help people survive in the process. It's not necessarily about creating long term jobs. Those will return as the economy improves.

Hey Lauren, screwing is with a "c".

Maybe you should keep the lights on! Okay, does that one get me banned???? c);)

Those will return as the economy improves.
Posted by: asitis at February 22, 2009 2:52 PM

We hope.....

That pig cartoon is the cutest thing ever.

From what I understand, a lot of the jobs that would have been long-term improvements/jobs were axed by the Republicans precisely because they were NOT going to help the economy right away (a common complaint was that they were too long-term) -I'm thinking specifically of rebuilding schools here, creating jobs in the here and now and in the future, along with educating kids, although I'm sure that's not the only one. Complaining now about what the stimulus plan COULD have done is just - I can't think of a word...maybe the Republicans should have supported the President on anything that might help - because doing nothing is a problem and so is fighting Obama merely because he's Obama and he won and not liking him on principle isn't going to help the country.

Asistis, I'm typing with a wiggly 7 month old and I went to elementary school in hippy whole language land. It's a miracle I can spell my own name. That said I, and everyone else on this site, will make typos and misspellings. Pointing them out serves no purpose other than to make the pointer feel superior and the pointee look stupid. At best it is shallow and immature.

Moving on, The stimulus fails to take into account the fact that the limited jobs it provides are not the type that work for immediate stimulus. Firt of all, it takes significant time to get the plan off the ground. It also neglects to remember that there are a finite number of skilled labor workers who can man these jobs and a significant number of them are undocumented workers. These jobs will do nothing to aid the guy in Ohio who lost his job at circuit city.

Instead, we need to focus on how to get companies back on solid footing so that they can restructure and rehire. We need to rebuild our financial sector. Instead, we're throwing money in all directions that we looted from the very people who have the capacity to create long term jobs.

Let's drop the capital gains tax and the dividends tax. Slash the cost of investing and investments will rise. If investments rise more money will be flowing in the financial sector and the bank gears can begin moving again.

This could have an immediate effect. Instead of the stock nosedive that occured after the stimulus was released, we could see a rebound as investor confidence improved. Small businesses could retain and hire employees and more people could open a business.

This would lead to both immediate and sustained stimulus within the sector hardest hit by this recession.

Building schools in districts that have a shrinking population does not stimulate the economy. Infrastructure alone does not stimulate the economy. Pork by the billions does not stimulate the economy.

Republicans have solutions, but no one wants to listen because the man with the hypnotic voice keeps telling them to cover their ears. We are not being contrary to be contrary. We see our country skidding into a nationalized mess and we're trying to stop it. We're not being "mean" to Pres. Obama, we're calling him and congress on an outrageous bill that does little to nothing to actually address the economic problems.

Q. How many left wing a-holes does it take to misconstrue Sarah Palin's position on birth control, WHICH SHE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A SUPPORTER OF? YES, MORONS, PALIN SUPPORTS CONTRACEPTION AND ALWAYS HAS.

A. Just read this thread.

I hate you guys.

Okay Lauren, first off, get over it!!!!! I was JOKING about the spelling error! In actuality I thought it was a typo. I hardly thought you wouldn't know how to spell screw!

Lauren, you have some ideas and so do others. No one knows for sure. Saying this government's plan isn't going to work this early in the game is as foolish as saying yours will. Or doing nothing will. I'm going to put my trust in the government we voted for as a nation and see how it plays. But then again, I don't have a deep-seated hatred for this government and our president. ;)

And Lauren, capital gains tax on investments held a year or more is only 15%. It's not prohibitive. If you don't get the tax dollars from there, where else would you like to see it come from? Olivers paycheck? Sales tax on your family's groceries? Where?

Asitis, why mention it at all?

Asitis, cutting the capital gains tax would cost about a 3rd of wht the stimulus plan cost. If we can pony up a trillian dollars for the Pelosi Surprise, we could have afforded to cut the capital gains tax.

Q. How many left wing a-holes does it take to misconstrue Sarah Palin's position on birth control, WHICH SHE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A SUPPORTER OF? YES, MORONS, PALIN SUPPORTS CONTRACEPTION AND ALWAYS HAS.
A. Just read this thread.
I hate you guys.
Posted by: John Lewandowski at February 22, 2009 4:01 PM

Ummmm John.... you should read this:

In an Eagle Forum Alaska questionnaire filled out during the 2006 gubernatorial race, Palin again stated that she is against abortion unless a doctor determined that a mother's life would end due to the pregnancy. "I believe that no matter what mistakes we make as a society," she wrote, "we cannot condone ending an innocent's life."But it's not just abortion policy that has Democrats up in arms over Palin. In that same 2006 questionnaire, the soon-to-be governor said she would fund abstinence-only education programs in schools. "The explicit sex-ed programs," she added, "will not find my support."

Q:.... oh never mind. I'll be nice to John....

Why mention the typo Lauren? Beacuse it made for a a good joke. Nothing more. Where's your sense of humor today?

Asitis, cutting the capital gains tax would cost about a 3rd of wht the stimulus plan cost. If we can pony up a trillian dollars for the Pelosi Surprise, we could have afforded to cut the capital gains tax.

Posted by: Lauren at February 22, 2009 4:19 PM

Lauren, do you pay any capital gains tax? Who does? Can afford to most? Does it REALLY stop them from investing?

Asitis, she later explained that by explicit she meant the "let's put a condom on a banana" type thing not any sex ed that explained more than just abstinance.

not liking him on principle isn't going to help the country.

Guess that depends on whether you want to see our constitutional republic turned into a socialist democracy.

Okay, I'm thinking maybe you didn't get my joke. I HATE having to explain them (totally ruins it) but here it is:

Hey Lauren, screwing is with a "c".

Maybe you should keep the lights on!

(Get it? "c" .... "see". Lights on. See. Ha!ha!ha!)

Okay, so ban me for vulgarity or corny humor. But not snobbery over spelling!

Lauren, here are the exact question and her response. She can try to back-pedal all she wants, but she clearly said she would back abstinence-only education:

Will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?

Palin: Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support.

Asitis, she later explained that by explicit she meant the "let's put a condom on a banana" type thing not any sex ed that explained more than just abstinance.

Posted by: Lauren at February 22, 2009 4:30 PM

Oh, what... so she's saying it too risque to put a condom on a banana to teach how to do it properly on a penis? Does she expect teachers to verbally describe it? What?

In any case, she said YES, she would support abstinence-until-marrriage education

Asitis, no I don't pay capital gains tax. However, many small business owners earn over half of their income from capital gains. These people are creating jobs. If they are paying less in taxes they have more to pay their employees.

Furthermore, individual investors benefit from a cut in capital gains because they are rewarded from buying now without fear of being slammed with taxes later. Anything that encourages people to invest will put money into the stock market and into the financial sector which will then put money out for more businesses and individuals.

The bail out flooded the market with what was essentially phony money because there was no market backing. We need to get the investors back behind the financial sector to give confidence to the market as a whole.

I see far beyond a tax cut that will benefit me directly. I would gladly give back my 13 dollars a week if it meant that we could get the market moving again.

Lauren, paying 15% tax on capital gains on investments (held over 1 year) is hardly "getting slammed". And if half of a small business owner's income is taxed at this rate, that's lucky for them!

Asitis, uh yeah you can describe how to put on a condom. I've never seen the safe-sex fruit demonstration but I still know how to do it. It's really not that complicated. Do we also need some fruit to show us how intercourse works? Perhaps a melon of some sort could be involved.

Do we need fruit? No, I supposed they could use any phallic-shaped device. My point is, why is that so risque?

And instead she supported abstinence-until-marriage education.

And John has gone into hiding.....

Asitis, in this environment 15% could mean the difference between holding on to all of your employees or laying some off. It could mean the difference between expanding and staying stagnant.

Of course, the 15% rate doesn't include the AMT exemption which results in about 50% paying 22%. When we get to those in the 175K+ range we see them paying 26% at 175 and 28% thereafter.

These are the people creating jobs. 28% can do a lot to grow a business or hold on through a storm. Hell, even the soccer mom making 50K might invest a bit more if she sees that she wont be smacked with a 15% penalty at the end of the day.

Furthermore, the small business owners are only one piece of the puzzle. Right now the capital gains and dividend taxes act as a negative incentive to investing. Were they gone more money would be invested immediately, and that money would be of greater worth to the financial sector than the monopoly money they received from the Bush stimulus.

My point is that there is no need to demonstrate it period. The instructions are on the label. A visual aid isn't necessary.

Lauren, if you are going to be talking about condoms and sex and how to have safer sex what's the big hang-up with a visual?

The point is Palin supported abstinence-only education.

And the state of Alaska, including the school her daugher attended, had comprehensive sex ed.

There's a difference between talking about birth control and graphically demonstrating it.

Sure there's a difference between talking about birth control and demonstrating, with props, the correct way to use it. One might argue the latter is more effective

And Lauren, the state of Alaska does not yet have mandatory comprehensive sex education in all high schools.

And did I mention the point is Palin supported abstinence-only education?

Lauren, from the Oct 6, 2008 Anchorage Daily News:

The Anchorage Daily News on Wednesday examined efforts by college and high school students in Alaska to reform the way sex education is taught in the state. The students argued that mandatory comprehensive sex education is needed in Alaska high schools. According to the Daily News, requiring comprehensive sex education would be a "radical shift from the hands-off approach" Alaska currently takes, which allows individual school districts to determine the way sex education is presented.

It shouldn't be mandatory! It should be up to the individual community to teach what it feels is appropriate for the students.

Well, I would disagre with you there Lauren.
But the point is you weren't entirely correct in saying that "Alaska has comprehensive sex ed". Parts of it do not. And apparently that's an issue.

And their governor supported abstinence-only education. Though from the sounds of last week's interview she has changed her tune.

People fail to realize that you can't borrow your way into financial solvency. It is akin to someone saying, "I'm barely making it, so I'm going to go get a payday loan." Of course, then the next week they lose a ton of money to predatory lending fees and STILL have just a small paycheck and can't possibly get by on it... just magnify this to the size of the federal government.

If you have faithfully been paying your mortgage, going without extras, doing what you are supposed to do... no help for you with your mortgage. If you screwed around, got yourself in too deep... you get help.

Companies and industries that were fiscally responsible get no help. Companies and industries that were fiscally irresponsible get bailed out.

FDR all over again... his failed policies did not end the Great Depression. WWII did.

If this bill was soooo great, they could have allowed enough time to ensure that the legislators voting on it actually read it. Honestly, they should have passed it in pieces allowing for more open debate about specific provisions.

Elisabeth,

My very elderly mother maintained for years that WW2 ended the Depression, period. That FDR's policies didn't do squat, at least not on a national scale. I believe there was still double digit unemployment up until WW2.

Another point, if the bill was so great, why was Obama so anxious for bipartisan support? Certainly he and the Democrats would want the glory. He wanted the Republicans to go down the toilet with him. VP Biden has said there's a 30% chance this bill will fail.
How reassuring our legislators didn't even read it. Has Obama even read it? Didn't he delegate it to Pelosi and Reid to write?

Reality:

Your comments on the war in Iraq are ignorant and evidence of your willingness to beleive the lies of the mass media. It is no wonder you are a massive pro-abort when you ignore the Book of Turth, God's Word which stands solidly against the murder of children in th e womb.

I personally met Geoges Sada a few weeks ago here in Phoenix. He was an Iraq General who personally knew Hussein. Google his name if you like. He is a devout Christian who sttod up to the Iraqi dictator and was not afraid of being killed by his own boss when his cronies were terrrifed by the madman.

He said the Iraqis are free now, Iraq is booming and Iraq is now open to the Gospel.

This is what's so sad about you Reality. People died so that others could hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ in freedon. YOU, in the freest country in the world not only reject the Good News, but go out of your way to mock God.

What are going to say to Jesus when you meet him someday? Pathetic............

Well, let's just have us a big ol' war and bring on the happy days again Mary! You know I'm just goofing round :).

Reality, pay His Man no mind. And the Oscar for best performance as a religious zealot goes to....

Asitis 7:16PM

I know :)

Mary, is your jaw all better? Hope you have a big bowl of popcorn, pain-free, and curled up on the couch for the Oscars!

People died so that others could hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ in freedon.

Posted by: HisMan at February 22, 2009 6:32 PM

Wait a minute there His Man! Are you saying the Iraq War is a modern day version of the Crusades????

Asitis 7:25PM

Oh my yes. Thank you for your concern. About the popcorn, I'm still fighting to keep that weight off that I lost. My body wants to "plateau" again.

Mary,

My sister just told she saw a man who was very short for his weight who was wearing a Tee shirt that said, "I defeated anorexia."

I am about one and one half times the man I used to be.

yor bro ken

p

Wow, you HATE my "rotten guts" John? Stromg words!

Well, you'll hate me even more when I point out that you have done nothing to refute the fact that Sarah Palin did in fact support abstinence only. All you have done is show that, according to an ADN writer, that she is pro-contraception.

Ken 8:01PM

LOL A few years ago I couldn't fit in my old maternity clothes, and I was the size of a small whale when I was pregnant with my son!

John 8:09PM

You know I am very fond of you but I'm absolutely appalled by what you said to Asitis.
She and I have had our differences as well, but I have never harbored such anger or hatred. I am in fact like her very much.
John, try to remember that you attract more flies with honey than you do vinegar.

And no, I am not equating anyone on this blog to flies!

John 8:38

You're going too far. Please get yourself under control and now.

You're a man who can argue intelligently and rationally. Stick to that strategy.

Wow John, you are one angry man.

Look Sarah may or may not be pro-contraception. It doesn't change the fact that she was against comprehensive sex and for abstinience-until-marriage. So good chance that was her approach at home as well, wouldn't you say? Think about it.....

Thank you Mary. Despite our differences, I do like you very much too!

Psst Mary. bzzzzzzzzz! ;)

John, please! I don't blame you for being angry. There is much to be angry about in our country right now. Like it or not, we're all in this together. Spewing hatred does nothing but discredit the message of Christianity. Please remember that Our Lord went to the cross even for those who hated him and despised his message!

Tell me where to go if you like, but I would ask you to spend a few minutes in silence before the Blessed Sacrament and let Our Lord speak to your heart. Please let him heal whatever is troubling you so much that you feel the need to speak such hatred.

I'm going to pray for you, whether you like it or not :-) And I hope you don't disappear from this blog forever. But I do hope you'll be a little more loving of thine enemy when you return.

I'm glad to see John's post is gone. Even so, I feel compelled to apologize for the words of a fellow member of my Church. Sorry, Asitis. I can't think of the right thing to say. It's just so sad to see a Christian write such hateful things.

FedUp,

I think the important thing to remember is this blog is not a mutual admiration society. That's
what makes its interesting, challenging, and yes educational.
People will prove us wrong, we will prove people wrong. We won't always like what people have to say, they won't like what we say.
Like you, I too am very sorry to see such hateful things written by anyone on the PL side and I also apologize to Asitis.
I hope John will find it in his heart to do the same. I'm fond of John and hope to see him return to the blog.

Fed Up, thank you. You are kind, but you don't need to apologize for him.

You are right Mary, it is our differences that make it interesting. And educational.

Ken,

"Ask the soldiers and the families of the soldiers who have fought the fight and the Iraqi people who have both suffered and benefited in the process if they believe the war in Iraq to be 'worthless'."

Part of my unit got back this weekend, and the rest of us leave next month. They told us they had actually gotten SPIT ON by Iraqis that hated us so much. They HATE us. You realize we've RUINED many homes and families both?!? Trust me, families of soldiers in Iraq (generally speaking) do think it's worthless. Tell me, Ken, if you had a son go to Iraq and DIE would you think there was a point in his death? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Asitis, I know I don't NEED to apologize. But I WANTED to. I trust that you know enough about Christianity to know that hatred isn't part of the message. But others reading may not. John is my brother in the Lord. If he can't find it in his heart to do the right thing, I'll do what little I can on his behalf :-)

Mary, I was troubled from a Christian perspective more than a pro-life standpoint. But I appreciate your comments all the same.

G'night, ladies.

Josephine, I'm about as far away from the war as you can get and that was my impression.

Enjoy your last days home before you ship out. I can't imagine.....

Fed Up, I know you wanted to apologize and I appreciate that.

The way I see it is I know enough about PEOPLE to know that hatred isn't part of our message. I don't believe that anyone is more kind to others simply because of their religion or lack thereof.

You have a good night too. Thanks.

I don't doubt that they are some Iraqis that hate the U.S. (the Ba'ath party) but my husband just returned from a year in Iraq and encountered Iraqis that were very grateful for what the U.S. has done to help them get back on their feet.

I'm watching the Oscars. The singer who just won for best song (from Slumdog Millionaire) ended his acceptance speech with this (and I hope I've got it right):

"All my life I have had to choose between love and hate. I am glad I chose love".

A good message for us and the world.

I am sure the Iraqi Christians, a very very small minority in the country, are grateful for the US. They are persecuted for their faith, like being forced from their homes (that they have occupied for generations).

Slumdog is making a killing.

It's a shame that City of God didn't do this well a few years ago. Very similar style in cinematography, etc. I just watched it this weekend and it is one of the greatest movies I've seen in a very long time. What a truly moving film.

It is PIP. And what a great movie that is! I like the way they have 5 actors presents the nominees for best actor, actress and supportings. Sean Penn just won for best actor for MILK.

Choose love.

Posted by: Josephine at February 22, 2009 9:47 PM

Part of my unit got back this weekend, and the rest of us leave next month. They told us they had actually gotten SPIT ON by Iraqis that hated us so much. They HATE us. You realize we've RUINED many homes and families both?!? Trust me, families of soldiers in Iraq (generally speaking) do think it's worthless.

Tell me, Ken, if you had a son go to Iraq and DIE would you think there was a point in his death? I sure as hell wouldn't.

-------------------------------------------------------

Josie,

Here is the advice that I have given to all my children male and female.

There are some things worth fighting for, worth dying for and even worth killing for. No one can make that decision for you.

If our nation were to reinstate the draft and you were called then you have to decide for yourself whether you can in good conscience participate in the mission of the military. If you can, then I support you. If you cannot, then I support you. If refusing to be inducted means you have to go to jail or leave the country, I support you. I respect you and I respect your conscience.

If after having made a decision to enlist or be inducted they find themselves in a war that was or has become 'unjust', then I would respect their decision to refuse to obey any more orders that were contrary to their conscience.

If my son or daughter made the decision to enlist or be drafted and as a result lost their life then I would still respect their decision and honor their sacrifice even if I thought the war was wrong.

But I hold the elected representatives responsible for their decisions as to when and where we go to war. I was never in favor of invading Iraq. I did not see a moral justification for this war (The President and the Congress may know some things that I do not.), but I still honor and appreciate the service and the sacrifice of our military. Each member of the military has to follow the light of his own conscience.

I am sure there other americans who share my sentiments. I am sure there are members of the military who share my sentiments. I am sure there are Iraqi's who despise our presence in their country, even some who would rather live under the tyranny of a Saddam Hussein.

But most americans, most american military personel, most surviving family of soldiers who have died in this war and most Iraqis believe the benefits to be gained were worth the cost of the sacrifice.

The majority approval does not make the war just, the war can still be wrong.

This is an imperfect world we live in.

I have another son who life was discarded for no other reason than my own convienence. His life is no less valuable than my surviving son, but his death served no purpose other than to relieve me of a responsibility I did not choose to bear.

Do not assume that I do not know the grief of losing a child. Do not assume that just because it is some other father's loss that I do not appreciate the sacrifice.

yor bro ken

Asitisnt:

C'mon, you know Hussein was a madman mass murderer who had WMDs and would use them on anyone.

He was a victim of his own madness and rebellion towards God.

He brought the war on his own head.

I suppose we should have done nothing? That's cowardice.

It turns out that confronting the evil of this guy resulted in the opening up of the Gospel to a whole country.

So don't twist my words liberal.

And how come I've not heard one twitter out of you twisted libs for Obama wanting to escalate the war in Afghanistan?

It looks like Colbert's instinct wins out again!!!

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/218733/february-12-2009/the-dacolbert-code---oscar-predictions

I'm watching the Oscars. The singer who just won for best song (from Slumdog Millionaire) ended his acceptance speech with this (and I hope I've got it right):

"All my life I have had to choose between love and hate. I am glad I chose love".

A good message for us and the world.
Posted by: asitis at February 22, 2009 10:06 PM
****************************************

Yes, and I feel it would be to nice remember that it goes BOTH ways. Asitis, you have had people falling all over themselves apologizing for the hateful comments posted by one person on this site, but you have mocked "religious zealots" here and have never apologized for it. Perhaps a little more respect and a little less mocking would do the trick. :) Hmm?

And yes, I see that Sean Penn "chose love" when he decided to stand up at the Oscars and "shame" all of the American people who freely and legally VOTED their consciences against gay marriage. Lucky for him, we're in a country that still has freedom, unlike the dictatorial countries he decides to fawn over.
Funny how "choosing love" often seems to mean "you'd better agree with ME, or you're a poor excuse for a human being."

But that's another topic for another day, I suppose. Goodnight!

Thanks Kel, for ruining that moment!! (j/k, sorta).

I don't think asitis was sticking up for Sean Penn (who like most celebrities are full of crap in terms of political beliefs) at all.
I think you'll find most liberals are odious of any celebrities' political spewings. I mean think about it, so many are scientologists or alties. Rationality, unlike other brilliance they may possess, is generally not their strong suit.

I think she was just genuinely trying to bridge the gap for a while :)

Kel,

As I said, this is a forum of various perspectives and personalities. It would be very boring if it wasn't.
Sarcasm is one thing, vile language and name calling is something else all together.
I don't feel Fed Up and I "fell" all over anyone.
We were both appalled and outraged over another member's behavior. FedUp as a Christian and me as a pro-lifer. I hope John will find it in his heart to apologize to Asitis.
Jill has very strict rules concerning profanity and name calling for a very good reason. To keep our discussions civil and to not reduce ourselves to nothing more than shouting and profanity matches.
You are more likely to convince someone with civility and intelligence than you are ranting and cursing like a street thug.
If people are going to set you off, simply avoid discussions with them. I choose to stay out of some discussions for that reason.
As I said I am fond of John, have had some great discussions with him and I hope he comes back and soon.

Thanks again and good morning Mary

"I'd tell them to turn in their hate card and find their better self".

Wanna take a guess at the source?

Ken @10:55PM, that was a beautiful post. I have a nephew who will probably be shipping out to the mid East later this year. You summed up very well how his parents feel about it.

I was also touched by what you wrote about your son in heaven. God bless.

Hello Everyone,
My name is Kate and I am a long time visitor to this blog. I used to post regularily, but got fed up with all the bickering and now am just a silent observer!

The reason I am writing today is because I am a social studies teacher in a high school, and after a discussion on Alfie the 13 year old father, my students have expressed a very keen interest in the pro-life vs. pro-choice debate. I've promised them we would have the discussion, but I want to be able to fully prep them. I don't want them to be affected by my position at all, I haven't told them what side of the debate I'm on, and I don't plan to. I want them to make up their minds for themselves, uninfluenced by me.

What I'm asking for is essentially summaries, key points etc. of your arguements from you on the pro-life side, (and even from those of you here on the pro-choice side, as long as it doesn't start a fight :-)) so that I can present those arguements to my students.

Thank you in advance

mention ultrasound technology giving you a picture of the baby as early as 6-8 weeks after conception. Scientific knowledge like heart beat, brain waves.....that sort of thing.

A child shouldn't be punished for a crime his/her father committed (rape or incest).

Is that what you mean?

My very elderly mother maintained for years that WW2 ended the Depression, period. That FDR's policies didn't do squat, at least not on a national scale. I believe there was still double digit unemployment up until WW2.

Posted by: Mary at February 22, 2009 6:20 PM

I was a history major in school and I've never had any history prof. say that FDR got us out of the depression. It's obvious if you look at the facts that WW2 was the reason.

kate,

I have a lot to say, after I put the little one down for her morning nap I'll respond!

"I don't want them to be affected by my position at all, I haven't told them what side of the debate I'm on, and I don't plan to. I want them to make up their minds for themselves, uninfluenced by me."

Why?

Do you also have your students make up their own minds when it comes to slavery? Do you present both sides? pro-slavery and Abolitionism?

you can start off by showing your students what is being aborted:

The students should be taught the truth!!
there is no debate. abortion is wrong (murder) and should be illegal. Just like slavery.

Hi Kate. I'd be happy to give a brief outline of the pro-life position and reasons for holding it. To keep this is short as possible, I won't spend much time arguing in detail too many points. Let me know if you would like more exposition anywhere.

The pro-life position is the protection of all innocent human life from conception to natural death. Specifically, this includes an anti-abortion stance which we shall discuss here. The first question to consider is "what is the embryo?" because if the embryo is not a human being, there is no sense in debating the issue. However, every embryology text you consult (I can give you many quotes if you wish) will tell you that the zygote (the "product" of conception) is a unique biological entity from either the oocyte or the sperm. It has a unique set of DNA that is distinct from the woman. In fact, biologically speaking, it is the same organism that is the embryo, the fetus, the newborn, the toddler, child, teen, and adult. In other words, you are the same biological organism that resulted as a fusion of oocyte and sperm in your mother's uterus 9 months before you were born. It is thus a biological fact that each and every one of us began our existence as an embryo. Hence because the embryo is a human being who only differs in size, level of development, environment, and degree of dependency from the rest of us born human beings (all things that upon a moments reflection don't change who we are), it follows that it should have the same right to life as the rest of us and thus the right not to be killed.

To the above, many if not all informed pro-choicers would admit. They will say that "yes, the embryo is a human being (as we discussed above) but it is not a human PERSON. It lacks personhood." There are many so-called "personhood theories" which attempt to determine at what point the human being (or in some cases, the animal) attains personhood. Some hold that this is at sentience (the ability to feel pain). Others viability (the ability to survive on one's own) or consciousness (very difficult to define). There are many problems with these and other personhood theories which I will not discuss here. However, it is important to note that all personhood theories come from those who have already attained such attributes. In other words, you will never for example hear a blind person say that sight is necessary for personhood. This also raises the question "who decides?" Who decides what constitutes a person and what doesn't? In fact, if we are making a distinction between human beings and human persons, what is to keep me from claiming that women, while being human beings, are not human persons? Perhaps I only consider blacks 3/5th of a person (this should sound familiar). Some of the worst crimes against humanity were based on one person's decision to label another group of people as non-persons. And as I alluded to above, the logical consequences of these personhood theories are absurd. For example, the chair of the Princeton ethics department Peter Singer has taken his personhood theory to its logical conclusions and deemed that certain animals are persons, while a 3 month old disabled newborn may be killed. (http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/sep/06091204.html ) The logical conclusions of personhood theory are absurd and hence we must conclude that all human beings are human persons; there is no distinction.

Finally, some of the most hardcore pro-choicers will admit to all of the above. "Yes it is a human person, with all the same rights and privileges as you or me. But, no one has the right to use another person's body (as the fetus does when living inside of the woman.)" One immediate problem with this line of argumentation is the a priori hidden assumption that being pregnant is parasitic, rather than a natural part of human existence by which we all came into this world. But it is reasonable to look at this problem in light of a conflict of interests. After all, the case of rape is an important one, one in which the mother had no choice and no finds herself pregnant through no fault of her own. In this case, we are indeed talking about a conflict of interests. The fetus's right to life vs. the woman's bodily ownership. The question here is "who has more to loose?" Whenever there is a conflict of interests, the law SHOULD fall on the side of the one who has more to lose. IN this case, it is always the fetus. We are always in the case where the fetus must give his LIFE, which can never be compromised. Certainly there are exceptions to right to life; it is not absolute. But let's look at a few moral principles. In an abortion, one DIRECTLY and WILLFULLY kills an INNOCENT human being as a means or an end. You will never find another situation where one is justly allowed to directly and willfully kill an innocent human being as a means or an end. This is why one can never support abortion in any case (if you wish, I can discuss life of the mother case, in which we need to define terms rigorously, much more so than one normally sees it)

So that is a real brief summary. There were a lot of points and issues that I didn't address. Just let me know. God love you.

Kel,

As I said, this is a forum of various perspectives and personalities. It would be very boring if it wasn't.
Sarcasm is one thing, vile language and name calling is something else all together.
I don't feel Fed Up and I "fell" all over anyone.
We were both appalled and outraged over another member's behavior. FedUp as a Christian and me as a pro-lifer. I hope John will find it in his heart to apologize to Asitis.
Jill has very strict rules concerning profanity and name calling for a very good reason. To keep our discussions civil and to not reduce ourselves to nothing more than shouting and profanity matches.
You are more likely to convince someone with civility and intelligence than you are ranting and cursing like a street thug.
If people are going to set you off, simply avoid discussions with them. I choose to stay out of some discussions for that reason.
As I said I am fond of John, have had some great discussions with him and I hope he comes back and soon.
Posted by: Mary at February 23, 2009 5:56 AM
*******************************************

Mary, I did not see John's post, but judging from the reactions it got, it had to be pretty bad.
I have been here for quite some time, and I'm well aware of the diverse viewpoints here. I'm also well aware of the behavior of some pro-choicers who post here and of the fact that you will rarely see them apologize for anything. There are exceptions, of course.

My point is that it should go both ways. Calling people religious zealots and telling others to ignore them (not very tolerant of that "diverse viewpoint," eh?) doesn't seem very courteous to me. Though the degree may differ from what John said, the intent of the insult remains clear.

PIP, I never said anyone was sticking up for Sean Penn. I simply said that I don't believe he "chose love" when he decided to spew hatred at a large portion of the voting American public.

Hmmm, that wasn't short at all, was it?

Bobby, it wasn't short, but it was great. :D

Kel, HisMan was talking a lot of hate while he was talking about his god. And he was coming across as a religios zealot. Who knows.... To him maybe that's a compliment. In any case my remark does not compare to what John wrote. If it did, it would have been removed and people would have been crying out for me to apologize.

Choose love.

Kate,

Basically it comes down to an issue of a compitition of rights. The fetus' right to life, and the woman's right to privacy.

To me the matter is settled becausea children have the right to infringe upon their parents right to privacy because they have a larger right to not be neglected. After birth this manifests in ways such as a parent being forced to give up privacy rights in order to provide shelter for their child. It further manifests in lack of autonomy for the parent ect.

In pregnancy, because the only way to avoid neglecting the child is to continue the pregnancy, the mother's right to bodily domain is temporarally waived.

This is a pretty cursory explanation, but it lays the groundwork for my general ideas re: abortion.

Kel, HisMan was talking a lot of hate while he was talking about his god. And he was coming across as a religios zealot. Who knows.... To him maybe that's a compliment. In any case my remark does not compare to what John wrote. If it did, it would have been removed and people would have been crying out for me to apologize.

Choose love.
Posted by: asitis at February 23, 2009 10:10 AM
****************************************

No, no one would have cried out for you to apologize. You were personally invited to come BACK to this blog, remember?? People have gotten used to your snide remarks, but that doesn't make them any less rude or demeaning.

Could you please point out the "hate" that you feel was in HisMan's post? And thanks for repeating your "religious zealot" comment once more toward a person of faith. You didn't mean it as a compliment. You were insulting him. I'm sure you're glad I'm not one of the mods here. :D

Choose LIFE.

Kel,

If you didn't see John's post then you don't realize how profane it really was. I've never seen anything like it. Definitely way below Jill's strict standards.
I have had PC people go to my defense on this blog BTW. I've had to apologize to people and they have apologized to me. Its inevitable. Absolutely, courtesy and respect goes in both directions and unfortunately does not always.
As I said there will be sarcasm, personality conflicts, heated words, etc. We are, after all, human.
But vile language and name calling worthy of some barroom brawler never has a place here.

Oh, about Sean Penn. These Hollywood hobnobs have a very overblown sense of how important and relevant they really are.

Jasper,
When an issue is a debate, I generally choose to keep my views out of it, because I think people should be presented with the facts/opinions from both sides and be able to make up their own minds.
Slavery, racism etc. are not exactly debatable issues.
Abortion, teenage pregnancy, globalization, Americanization, positive/negatives of cultural contact, the economy, politics, etc. are all issues that have two very valid sides. I am an adult, with opinions, and I don't think it's fair to brainwash my students to my side/opinions. As young adults on their way to being adults/citizens, they should be allowed to make up their own minds. THAT is why I don't and won't tell them my opinions on the life vs. choice debate. I simply want to present them with the arguements and have them make the decision for themselves. I would expect you to understand that.
If your child was a student in my class and you desire them to be pro-life and have pro-life values and I am their pro-choice teacher would you want me to be presenting them with only pro-choice propoganda and arguements, in an effort to show them what I believe to be the truth? I highly doubt it. And it works the other way around too.
This is exactly why I stopped posting comments here. It doesn't seem to matter what a person says or believes, there is always somebody ready to jump down their throats with "the truth(!!)". You don't even know whether I'm pro-choice or pro-life and you're ready to crucify me for presenting my students with options rather than simply convincing them one way or another.

Thank you Bobby Bambino for your reply. I will be sure to use parts, if not all of it when I discuss this ISSUE with my students. I am still very open to anyone else that would like to respond to my original post.

And just FYI Jasper, yeah, if I was talking about slavery, I would present both arguements. I would absolutely tell them why people thought slavery was ok, in fact, I have done so, and currently am doing so as I discuss Eurocentrism and Imperialism with them. Just like when I'm talking about Residential Schools next week, I will tell them why the British thought it was a good idea to set up schools intending to whipe out Native American culture. I will give them literature to read that was written by people at them time, so that they see both sides and graudally begin to understand that issues have two sides, everything has two sides. It doesn't mean I'm saying Residential Schools were a good thing, because in my mind they are unequivocably not. However, it doesn't mean they shouldn't get both sides of the story.

Couple spelling errors in that post, oops.

Thanks Lauren :-)

Nobody is crucifying you Kate, sorry if I came across that way.

Will you show them the ultrasounds?

No problem, Kate.

Kel,

If you didn't see John's post then you don't realize how profane it really was. I've never seen anything like it. Definitely way below Jill's strict standards.
****************************************

Hi Mary,
I have no doubt of that. I have seen some of John's posts that are NOT deleted by mods, and those are often harsh enough. :( I'm not defending John's words. I'm saying that a little respect should go BOTH ways here. Sarcasm is part of my life (and I will keep it till my dying day, lol) but namecalling isn't right, not from anyone on this blog. Either argue the content, or don't say anything. I believe asitis was wrong to call HisMan a religious zealot, which she did intend as an insult. Though her language was not that of a "bar room brawl," it was a direct attack on his character and not on anything that was argued in his post.

People of faith are often directly insulted FOR their faith on this blog. It is my opinion that this needs to stop.

I have also apologized to pro-choicers on this blog, for my own words which I felt might be misconstrued. I have great respect for those who argue their stance without resorting to snide remarks and attacks (Doug comes to mind).

Jasper,
I am going to show them ultrasound pictures.
In a separate handout from either the pro-choice handout or pro-life handout.
Ultra sound pictures can be used as "proof" on either side of the debate and I want to present it that way.

Kel,

Exactly. If you can't argue intelligently then please just sit it out.

And if you feel someone said something offensive by all means tell the person. I've told a few people more than once and have been corrected a few times myself.

Doug is my buddy too.

Kate,

Thanks. It's good that you're having this debate in class, many teachers would not. I get the feeling you're a good teacher :)

Kate, I agree with Jasper. It's so important to have an open discussion on the issue, especially at the high school level.

And I can't add anything more than what the others have said so well. :) Good luck with your classroom discussion.

I'm also well aware of the behavior of some pro-choicers who post here and of the fact that you will rarely see them apologize for anything.

Your point is well taken, Kel. There are some here who do not view my life as sacred. In their view, I was entitled to life only because my mother chose to bear me. If my life in the womb could be easily discarded, how much more disposable are my beliefs and opinions?

If I can be viewed as a punishment in the womb, I suppose I can be viewed as an absolute torture outside it to some :-)

Thank you Jasper, I hope I am a good teacher.
And Thank you Kel.

Choose love = Choose life.

If everyone chose love there would be no more war and unborn babies would be safe in their mothers' wombs.

Asitis 6:59am

You're welcome and good morning.

The source? Beats me.

Bobby! Awesome!!

I hate you guys.
Posted by: John Lewandowski at February 22, 2009 4:01 PM

Newsflash.

C'mon, Hal, no trolling please. There's no need to repost John's comments after the mods saw fit to remove them.

kel, Hisman's comment to Reality was all about his religious beliefs. If someone doesn't share those beliefs they fall on deaf ears and the speaker does come off as a zealot. They were not said in kindness.

And I admit my comment to him didn't exactly drip in kindness either. If he wants an apology I will be happy to give him one.

Mary as for that quote.... It's from none other than that commie, homo-lovin' son of a gun Sean Penn. ;)

Abortion, teenage pregnancy, globalization, Americanization, positive/negatives of cultural contact, the economy, politics, etc. are all issues that have two very valid sides. I am an adult, with opinions, and I don't think it's fair to brainwash my students to my side/opinions. As young adults on their way to being adults/citizens, they should be allowed to make up their own minds. THAT is why I don't and won't tell them my opinions on the life vs. choice debate. I simply want to present them with the arguements and have them make the decision for themselves. I would expect you to understand that.
If your child was a student in my class and you desire them to be pro-life and have pro-life values and I am their pro-choice teacher would you want me to be presenting them with only pro-choice propoganda and arguements, in an effort to show them what I believe to be the truth? I highly doubt it. And it works the other way around too.
Posted by: Kate at February 23, 2009 10:25 AM

...you can start off by showing your students what is being aborted.
Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 9:41 AM

Kate, you sound like a great teacher! I applaud you for your dedication and for the approach you are taking on this. And I like that you are presenting them with the ultrasound photos, and not tied to either side of the debate. No doubt, you'll attach the gestational age as well, because that is imporatant. My guess is that the photo Jasper has posted on his Quote of the Day is >26 weeks old, which accounts for less than 1% of abortions.

Will you be asking the students beforehand to state their postion (prolife, prochoice, undecided) and then again afterward? It would be interesting to see if it changes.

Asitis,
Yeah, that is one of the things I plan to do. And thank you for your kind words.

I would like to talk to you more about the pro-choice side, away from the pointing fingers of this blog. Since I asked them for their opinions in a place where they wouldn't be ridiculed, I'd like to do the same for you and other pro-choicers. Maybe you could visit my class' blog, and in the very first post I made there, you can find my email address. (I want to make it a little bit of work to find my email for obvious reasons)

Kate, you're from Canada! Thanks for the invitation. I like to keep a degree of anonimity, but it appears that you would respect that, so I'll be in touch.

"No doubt, you'll attach the gestational age as well, because that is imporatant."

why?

"is >26 weeks old, which accounts for less than 1% of abortions. "

you're guessing that he is >26 weeks but you don't know that. Also, 1% of abortions is 13,000 abortions a year of babies in that picture, If i go on your premise.

turns out Kate is an anti-american fraud.

Here is one of the questions she posed to her students:

"Your Discussion Question for this week is: Are we becoming Americanized? And should anything be done by Canadians or by the American President Obama to prevent Americanization in Canada and the rest of the world?"

Why is it importanat to attach the gestatioonal age of the ultrasounds? I'm surprised you asked that Jasper, beacuse you yourself just said "you can start off by showing your students what is being aborted".

And you're right I don't know that the ultrasound photo you posted is >26 weeks. That's why I said it was a guess. But the business website that it came off of suggests that the best time to take the photos is after the fetus has put on some fat and developed chuuby cheeks. They suggest best time is 26-28 weeks. It's a good guess that they would use one of their best photos to advertise their product, don't you think?

I said I don't know what the percentage is for 26 weeks. Do you?

why does gestational age matter. I'll show some 6 weeks ultrasounds tool with arm and legs, head, a beating heart......

turns out Kate is an anti-american fraud.

Here is one of the questions she posed to her students:

"Your Discussion Question for this week is: Are we becoming Americanized? And should anything be done by Canadians or by the American President Obama to prevent Americanization in Canada and the rest of the world?"

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 2:14 PM

Oh Jasper! Really? An "anti-American fraud"? She never claimed to be a flag-waving American. And her question above is not anti-american.

Let me speak as one who grew up in Canada. As an American living in Canada, to be exact. Canada and Canadians are very aware of the influence the US has on their country. Not only does the US have roughly 10 times the population, but it is a world "super power". Some might argue THE world super power.

Can you not understand why Canadains might be concerned about becoming "americanized"? Can you not see how this doesn't mean one is "anti-American"?

why does gestational age matter. I'll show some 6 weeks ultrasounds tool with arm and legs, head, a beating heart......

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 2:22 PM

Sure, but it will look very different than the one at 26 weeks.

Astis,

why does gestational age matter?

"Can you not understand why Canadains might be concerned about becoming "americanized"?"

No.

Astis,
why does gestational age matter?

Okay... one more time Jasper.... because, as you yourself have already said, they should be shown what is being aborted.

"Can you not understand why Canadains might be concerned about becoming "americanized"?"

No.

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 2:32 PM

Then you need to get out more.

Hi Kristen,

I was taught in HS that it was FDR's New Deal that saved the country. Indeed it was the war, as my mother always maintained despite the glorification of FDR.
I hope what you told me is an indication that the truth is finally being taught.

do we have guns to Candian heads telling them to be americanized? My father was born in Canada, many French Canadians came to the US in the 20's...at least to my state. My father never talked about all this anti-american BS...

And Jasper that is NOT meant to be a derogatory comment about Americans (remember that I, afterall am American too). It just means that Canadians have their own culture. They also want to make their own decisions as a country. These things can be said for any country. They don't want to become just like another, bigger country. And there is a concern for that happening, especially when you are the smaller one next door.

Now do you see?

My father was born in Canada, many French Canadians came to the US in the 20's...at least to my state. My father never talked about all this anti-american BS...

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 2:50 PM

Jasper, think back.... the US was not as much a world power back then. But more importantly, distances were bigger then before TV's, internet, travel...... And we didn't have internatinal trade agreements and multinational banks and corporations. It was a different world.

Instead of thinking of it as "anti american BS" , think of it as "proud to be canadian". Or rather.... Choose love, not hate!

Then go-ahead and preserve your culture, who is stopping you? I mean, she talks about America like it's some kind of disease. More people immigrate to america each year then all other countries combined...

I hope what you told me is an indication that the truth is finally being taught.

Posted by: Mary at February 23, 2009 2:48 PM

Yes, it seems finally. I'd like to believe that about GWB presidency as well.

Why so defensive?

Sorry, that was meant to be for Jasper:

why so defensive Jasper? You're the one who called Kate a.. what was it?.... "an anti-american fraud"!

I'm sorry, an "anti-american fraud"
Never once have I ever said a single Anti-American comment. And I think the question I posed to my students is a very legitimate one. What's wrong with asking them if we're becoming Americanized?
I am Canadian, proudly Canadian...How does that make me a fraud?

And if you look Jasper, the video I used in that post was made by Russians..... Sooooo I don't see where I talked about America as a disease??

kate,

You should be ashamed with all the liberal tripe you're taching your kids... The video blames the US for not intervening in Riwanda, but doesn't mention Canada? I'm sure you'll mention all the AID US gives to Africa, with Pres. Bush giving the most...

How would you feel if I taught kids about the dangers of becoming Candianized?

How would you feel if I taught kids about the dangers of becoming Candianized?

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 3:27 PM

How would Kate feel? Probably sore. Sore from laughing! Because surely you jest, Jasper? I don't think anyone really has a concern about Americans feeling or becoming Canadianized. Thoough a lot of Americans do love Mike Myers, lacrosse, back bacon and Canadian beer..... Good one Jasper!

Wow... liberal tripe.... I should be ashamed?
I never said it was dangerous to become Americanized. I never made an anti-American comments. I simply asked them a question so that they would think about it. Are you suggesting that it is dangerous to be asking my students to think for THEMSELVES and use their OWN brains?

I came here asking for help presenting my students with both sides of an arguement. It's up to you whether or not you respond to that request. But I seem to remember something about personal attacks being discouraged on this blog. I hardly think that calling me an anti-american fraud and telling me I should be ashamed of asking my students to think is necessary Jasper.

Kate I think Jasper was all for you asking your students to think... until he realized that you weren't TELLING them what to think.

Good luck Kate. I'll be in touch.

Kate,

Thanks. It's good that you're having this debate in class, many teachers would not. I get the feeling you're a good teacher :)

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 10:44 AM

How come asitis' comment is removed when she makes a valid comment about Jasper, but yet Jasper can attack me all he wants for being, in his opinion, an anti-American fraud and telling me I should be ashamed of myself etc. etc. etc.??
Oh...is it because jasper is a moderator and can feel free to do whatever he wants?

My comment was removed? Where? When? I didn't notice.........

Yeah, the one where you were sticking up for me....funny that....

Oh, that one! well, I see no valid reason for why it was removed, so here it is again. If it gets removed again, I'm going to have to ask why.

Kate, I think Jasper was all for you getting your students to think.... until he realized you weren't TELLING them what to think:

Kate,

Thanks. It's good that you're having this debate in class, many teachers would not. I get the feeling you're a good teacher :)

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 10:44 AM

Kate,

Because you were bashing this site. Not once or twice, but 3 times. Debate all you want, please stop bashing this site.

WHEN did I EVER bash this site? I challenge you to find an example of me bashing this site. Dare you. Double Dog Dare you in fact...

Bashing this site? How? And what does THAT have to do with you removing the comment I just reposted Jasper?

Kate,

you came in here asking for pro-life / pro-choice suggestions and you continued with your insults of this blog. Here you go:

Kate:……just want your thoughts, and I'm sure you can understand why I don't want you to have to do it here....

Kate:…away from the pointing fingers of this blog

Kate:…got fed up posting to this site

Hmmmm.... pretty lame-o Jasper. And what does THAT have to do ith you removing my comment?????

Those are HARDLY insults to the blog.
1. I wanted to talk to asitis off the blog, for the very reason you have so clearly demonstrated. No one here can have a civil discussion, and those poeple on the opposite side of the debate are shunned and ridiculed and don't have a hope of having a normal discussion.
2. See #1.
3. I used to post on this blog all the time, about 2 years ago. I couldn't handle the fighting and the bickering anymore, so yeah, I got fed up. Everyone argues and points fingers and somehow believes that furthers their side of the debate.

Not a single one of those comments was an insult to this blog in anyway. I respect many of the people that post on here, which is why when I decided to prepare for a pro-life/pro-choice debate with my students I came here to get your comments. I have nothing personal against the blog or the people here. I do however feel there is a lot of argueing, and you can hardly deny that since you've been trying to pick a fight with me since the minute I posted here this morning, asking for advice.

your comment is back up. You misreprented my position.

Look at Kate's blog and the the question she poses to her students:

"And should anything be done by Canadians or by the American President Obama to prevent Americanization in Canada and the rest of the world"

...intentionlly misleading students..

Jasper it's up again because I(!) put it back on again... not you.

Um.... how exactly did I misrepresent you???????

Jasper, here's the comment again that you deleted. How, pray tell, did I misrepresent you? It's not clear to me:

Kate, I think Jasper was all for you getting your students to think.... until he realized you weren't TELLING them what to think:

Kate,

Thanks. It's good that you're having this debate in class, many teachers would not. I get the feeling you're a good teacher :)

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 10:44 AM

Posted by: asitis at February 23, 2009 4:14 PM

And how am I intentionally misleading students with that question?
Did you even watch the video that is on that blog posting, as per the instructions to my students to do so before commenting on the blog?

Kate,

I'm sorry about the 'fraud' comment. There are a lot of things I don't like about America too. Abortion, hollywood, exporting pornography, etc.

So, maybe it's not a totally wrong question. They way it was worded just showed an unfair bias on your part...

Oh hey. And it appears that ANOTHER comment has been deleted. This time it is one of Kate's though. It was right after mine @1:25pm, inviting me to contact her via email. And now it's gone. Care to explain that one Jasper? What rule did dear Kate break?

consumerism too.

Those things are understandbly no other country should want, but there are good things and many generous Americans as well...

Jasper, Jasper, Jasper....
Did you really delete someone's post? Denying someone freedom of speech and opinion sort of makes you look a little bit uncredible, pro-life or not.

I appear to be breaking a whole lot of your rules today Jasper.

I don't think the question shows an unfair bias. I didn't make up the word Americanization. go to dictionary.com and look for youself.
In fact, I'll save you some time:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Americanization

In Canada its a very real concern. And since the curriculum that I am teaching requires me to teach about globalization, Americanization, cultural contact etc. is included in that topic. Isn't it important that students think about the influences in their lives? And given that the United States is a super power, Americanization is very real in Canada and aroudn the world. The kids in the video that is included in that post are in Russia talking about Americanization.
I don't see your problem with the question....

Jasper, you've got some 'splaining' to do! Two deleted comments and no real justification yet. Tsk tsk.

Yes, I told you I put mine back up myself, so I know this.

But what I still haven't heard yet is what rule did I break to justify your deleting my comment?

What rule did Kate break to justify you delting hers?

BTW Jasper, that's not crying. That's just standing up to you.

Kate,

I've traveled to many places around the world, I like different cultures. How is Canada being Americanized though? Tell them to shut off their TV's, thats a good start.

Ok, so lets all get on board with isolationism?
So Canada stops watching American TV and the United States stops getting our energy resources. Sounds like an effing plan if you ask me.

Americanization, hmmm. Japan post World War II, living in an increasingly American limelight, i would have to say that Americanization runs rampant there. Russia post Cold War, America Version 2.0, wuh oh, did he just say that? Canada.... ahh yes Canada, America's little brother, our TV networks, radio stations, and magazines have become so overpopulated with Americanized garb, that many stations etc. have to play 33% Canadian material just so people know that we do in fact have something to offer the world. I'll stop there.

Kate,

how exactly is Canada being Americanized?

If we shut off the TV we won't know the American Armed Forces are coming to take our resources. Hitler who?

But what I still haven't heard yet is what rule did I break to justify your deleting my comment?

What rule did Kate break to justify you delting hers?

BTW Jasper, that's not crying. That's just standing up to you.

I think Dustin pretty much summed it up for me there.

You can ask, but he's not going to tell Asitis

Are you serious Kate?

This is a setup.

I can always smell a sneak and a fraud. I was right...

They're gone!! Good thing I saved 'em

Since my comments keep getting deleted, I've taken to saving them. Here's the most recent one that was deleted:

You literally deleted the last 20 minutes of conversation..... Unbelievable. Why don't you keep going, delete everyones comments, the blog posts even. Just let 'er rip Jasper.
I can see now why you would have a problem with me letting my students think for themselves. You don't want ANYONE to think for themselves, let alone a bunch of kids.

There's absolutely no justification for the deletions that are taking place. No one is swearing, just debating. And perhaps disagreeing with Jasper, which seems to call for sensorship.

He is a monster! A comment-deleting monster!
Posted by: asitis at February 23, 2009 5:52 PM

How come the post where you call Dustin and I bums and tell us to "screw, get the hell out of here" is acceptable? Ohhhhh I get it! Because even though it's the rudest, most derogatory post up there right, Jasper said it, so it must be ok.
Posted by: Kate at February 23, 2009 5:57 PM

But what I still haven't heard yet is what rule did I break to justify your deleting my comment?

What rule did Kate break to justify you delting hers?

BTW Jasper, that's not crying. That's just standing up to you.

How's this going to end Jasper? It's in your hands.

Jasper, I think that while you may have visited many countries, you have never actually LIVED in another country or culture. Canada is constantly bombarded with American values, culture and politics. And while it may be easy to say we should just turn off the tv, that is not likely, and it misses the point. Canadians are not American. And to have the culture constantly influenced by American culture to the point where some people can't even tell the difference between Canadian and American culture is disturbing to many people.

You bums are not going to compare America to Hilter when I'm here...

I didn't think anyone compared America to Hitler...

How can it possibly be ok for you to keep calling us bums when we can't so much as disagree with you or we get deleted?

Jodes, I really like your comment. I hope it doesn't get deleted, but if it does, you put it very well.

Well one person did, but it got deleted, along with everything else.

Thank you Kate.

She did put it very well! Jodes that's pretty much how Canadians feel. And its not necessarily an anti-american sentiment. It's like I said... proud to be Canadian.

I hope Jasper leaves it on too. I think he will - he seems to have got himself back under control.

Are you ready to answer this now Jasper?

But what I still haven't heard yet is what rule did I break to justify your deleting my comment?

What rule did Kate break to justify you delting hers?

BTW Jasper, that's not crying. That's just standing up to you

This isn't the first time Jasper's deleted comments in the heat of the moment. Usually once he calms down a bit he can take a more objective look at things. I'm not saying one way or the other that the deletions were warranted -- since they were deleted, I didn't see them. Just pointing it out. Jasper is a good guy and doesn't mean any harm, but sometimes he's so quick to defend the "good" that he lumps mere disagreements in with the "bad."

Anyway, Jasper, it might be easier to understand why a country wouldn't want to be "Americanized" if you think of it in terms not of Americanization but rather some other nation's influence on YOUR culture. Think of all the products you buy that are made in other countries. China, Vietnam. Service industries in India. Now imagine that those products were things that had a bigger cultural influence on you, your children -- not just things you could buy and assume were made here but things that were identifiably foreign. Things that glorified a foreign country. Even in the midst of your appreciation of the things these country gave you, wouldn't you want to find some way to remind your kids, your community, of the importance of American culture in all of this? Wouldn't you at least think the topic deserved discussion?

For most immigrants to this country -- people who want to come here and work to come here, and thus love this country -- one of the biggest challenges in raising their families here is learning how to give their children the benefit of both their old culture and their new one. How to balance the benefits of American culture with the benefits of another culture. Even loving this country so much that they gave up their homes and their extended families to come here, they don't want to just lose everything that made them "them." Is that so hard to understand?

It's the same for foreign countries. They benefit a lot from American influence. But they also need to find a balance, so that they don't lose their own cultural identity in the rush to adopt everything American. It's not anti-American to have that discussion. In many ways it's PRO-American, because it shows that these countries appreciate the contributions of the US and don't want to simplify things and just shut down all cultural exchange.

And I have no idea what the conversation has been since it's all been deleted. But I understand, Jasper, that someone comparing America to Hitler doesn't feel like merely the discussion I just mentioned. Because it's not. Things like that are uncalled for. But your initial reaction to Kate's completely appropriate discussion was uncalled for as well, because THAT -- balancing two cultures, weighing pros and cons, things that should be talked about in such a globalized time -- was all that Kate mentioned on her blog.

If people take pride in their culture and heritage, that's perfectly fine.
Then its up to those same people to promote pride in their culture and preserve it.
Its up to families and communities to instill this in their children.
The Amish are one example of people who do just that.
Native Americans near me have built their own schools, encouraged their young to learn the Native language, have cultural events where they welcome the local community, etc.
Great, go for it.
The Irish have maintained their cultural pride.
I had little of my heritages instilled in me by my parents. That was their decision. No one else was responsible. There's nothing that stops me or anyone from researching our family, ethnic, and cultural history and passing what we have learned onto our children.

Kate, I may have missed something with all the comments that have been deleted. Anyway, I noticed in your initial post you said the 13 y/o father in the news is what triggered your students' interest.

I'd be curious to know something if you're brave enough to come back here and post later. I'd be curious to know if any of your pro-choice kids think age factors into the picture. I mean, do they think a 13 y/o should be allowed to make the same choices as a 16 y/o? Or someone of legal age? Or do they not view age as a factor?

Good luck with your project. I admire your courage for taking on such a controversial topic.

Jasper,

Isn't calling people "bums" a little extreme?
I still don't understand what was said that got you so angry.

Mary,

They started comaring the United States to Adolf Hilter, thats when I kinda lost it.

Some guy named Dustin (kate's friend) said:
"If we shut off the TV we won't know the American Armed Forces are coming to take our resources. Hitler who?"

..and Kate agreed.

so, thats when I figured out the ruse that was going on... they were just here to antagonize pro-lifers and not here for a serious discussion.

as is Asistis.

I'm not totally sure what side most of my kids are on in the pro-choice pro-life debate. But when we discussed Alfie, the 13 year old father, the general thought was that 13 is way too young to be a parent. And then there were varying comments on what should have been done, some said abortion, some said adoption etc. That's when they wanted to get into the abortion debate, and I told them it would have to wait for another time.

And Jasper, I am impressed that you put the comments back. Glad to see your head cleared a bit.

Jasper,
a) I don't know Dustin, he's not my friend, I've never talked to or heard of him before. Isn't it possible that some guy named Dustin was reading the blog and chose to add his two cents?
b) I didn't agree with his comment comparing the united states to Hitler. Never once did I express agreeance.
c) there was no ruse. Get over yourself. You can't really believe that I banded together my friends and came to pick on pro-lifers. If you'll remember I came here asking for advice. Legitimately. My agenda never had anything to do with poking sticks at a pro-lifer.

Kate, I think it is an excellent way for students to learn to think for themselves. I think you'll be surprised to see just how pro-life most kids that age are.

We had a similar issue my freshman year of high school. Our teacher actually let us debate whether evolution had any more scientific credibility than creation theory...

My group consisted of a Methodist, two girls who attended Church of Christ, two LDS girls, and a Jehovah's Witness (I was the Methodist). Our opposing proposition was that as currently posited the theory of evolution requires just as much "faith" as creation theory, due to the need to suspend known and proven scientific principles, such as the fact that, without outside influence, the universe tends towards chaos and disintegration, not greater order and complexity.

(That was far from our only point, but we kept the issues strictly upon the holes in the evolutionary theory and did not attempt to "prove" creation theory, merely to point out that there was no difference in the amount of faith required, just what that faith was placed in.)

It was a fascinating debate, and I'm very pleased, looking back, that we were allowed to engage in it. The verdict by the class was overwhelming that evolution could not be proven and that yes, faith in science is a type of faith that sometimes leads to just as much blindness as those of faith in a Higher Power are accused of.

Interestingly, I don't remember abortion being an issue at our school... I'm not aware of any of my classmates being pro-abortion... we had our share of teen pregnancies (I remember babysitting for a couple of friends....) but of course I'm not naive enough to think I knew everything about everyone...

Jasper, Jasper, Jasper.....
Glad to see everything, or at least almost everything was reposted. Perhaps you aren't as hypocritical as I thought.

So tell me Jasper, how has Americanization not affected the world, let's leave Canada out of this for now, let's face it, we're influenced even easier than the rest of the world due to our geographic location.

They started comaring the United States to Adolf Hilter, thats when I kinda lost it.

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 7:26 PM

Ummm, actually... didn't you start deleting comments for no reason BEFORE then Jasper????

Yes he did asitis, long before that.

Is someone forcing you to be American?

I've been to Japan, believe me, they have their own culture. And Korea does too...

Thanks for the feedback, Kate.

They started comaring the United States to Adolf Hilter, thats when I kinda lost it.

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 7:26 PM

Here's the "offensive" Hitler comment from Dustin:

If we shut off the TV we won't know the American Armed Forces are coming to take our resources. Hitler who?
Posted by: Dustin at February 23, 2009 5:23 PM

Note that it occurred almost an hour and a half AFTER you deleted my comment and Kate's, Jasper.
You're going to need a new reason.

Well i wasn't technically comparing Hitler to America, it was more of an Americanization v. Nazism type thing. You know, just your average run of the mill world domination type thing. An unprovoked verbal attack on a nation hardly seems like something I would do.

I'm not talking about anyone forcing anyone to be American. That's not the point, you're completely missing the point.
If you watch the video, there are Russian kids asking what Obama would do as president to prevent Americanization. Russians have their own culture, but they're not immune to the affects that the United States has on cultures around the world.
I was ONLY trying to get my students to think about how being right next to the United States affects us and our culture and think about whether or not something should be done to address that issue. Why can't you get that?

I don't Asitis, I forgot. Drop it...

Can't we all just agree that tomato soup is good?

Yes I get it, OK, but what do you mean by "prevent Americanization" ?

I don't Asitis, I forgot. Drop it...

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 8:01 PM

You don't what? You don't need a reason for deleting our comments around 4:00? Or you don't remember what it was that you found so offensive that you had to delete them. I don't understand. Please explain.

The whole point of the question is, what can be done to prevent the "Melting Pot" effect that America has on cultures. Again that's "Melting Pot", it's hardly anti-American, it's more anti-lose-your-culture-in-the-shadow-of-another-nation-with-a-much-greater-influence-on-the-world kind of thing.

OMG, I just had a flashback to grade school when we learned about Canada's "mosaic" vs. America's "melting pot"!

"Can't we all just agree that tomato soup is good?"

Ewww! No! Good grief, you're NASTY Dustin! :)

Wanna argue about tomato soup? Everything else seems to cause mass amounts of rage here.

Missed your reply "Fed up"
No problem :-) Happy to Share.

"Melting Pot" effect that America has on cultures."

Well, it has to do with immigration. We're a nation of immigrants. You do get sub cultures, Italian, German, Greek, Spanish, etc...

It's not a bad thing.

Now, if your talking about abortion, consumerism, pornograpy, materialistic lifestyles, etc which do plague America, thats a good thing for a culture to avoid...

Canada is a nation of immigrants too Jasper. We just have a different policy towards cultural integration than the United States does.

"We just have a different policy towards cultural integration than the United States does."

Ok.

So what is your suggestion for fixing this Americanism? I'm not being sarcarstic. what are your ideas.

Jasper, I don't think it is a problem to have Americanism in America. I think the problem is when people in other counties feel the pressures of an American culture in these other countries.

I don't think there is a solution. At least not as of yet. But I do believe that every empire that rises must fall. America has an empire right now, which I believe will eventually fall like all empires through-out history. With the falling of the American empire will come a downturn in Americanization. Just like with the fall of the British empire there was a movement away from the British way of life.

I'm not being anti-American, just stating my opinion based on history.

Jasper, there is nothing about Americanism that needs fixing. It's Americanization that other cultures are occasionally wary of -- losing their own culture as they adopt American culture. I can't really say more on it than I already did.

Agreed Jodes, once again you're more eloquent than I am. :-)

Gah, the first sentence I wrote above is not necessarily my belief. If you take "Americanism" to mean American culture then I think there's a lot that needs fixing. What I meant was, there is nothing inherently American in its approach to immigration or business that really needs fixing -- that the hesitation of other countries is more about not wanting to lose what's theirs, rather than not wanting to adopt what's ours.

Thank you Kate!
For me, as a Canadian, it's not about being anti-American, but proudly Canadian. And, because the countries are so close in geography and in culture, for me it is important to keep the differences between the countries simply because we are different countries! It is not one against the other.

After all, I think any American would correct someone who called them Canadian. So why would the opposite not be true?

I completely agree Jodes. I am not Anti-American. I may disagree with some American foreign policy etc. but I don't think that the American people are bad or that we should not have a relationship with them as Canadians. But I am proud of my country and culture and I also want to see it kept separate and distinct from American culture.

I don't Asitis, I forgot. Drop it...

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 8:01 PM

You don't what? You don't need a reason for deleting our comments around 4:00? Or you don't remember what it was that you found so offensive that you had to delete them. I don't understand. Please explain.

"I don't think there is a solution. At least not as of yet. But I do believe that every empire that rises must fall. America has an empire right now, which I believe will eventually fall like all empires through-out history. With the falling of the American empire will come a downturn in Americanization. Just like with the fall of the British empire there was a movement away from the British way of life."

Well, why wait for America to fail? I mean, were not going aroung concering/ruling other lands and hanging our flag up like the Romans or the British did..( Iraq, yes we invaded. But they control the destiny of their own country now).

I think it's more of a percieved threat.

Jasper, it is a perceived threat, in a way.

We perceive the culture of America overtaking our own culture. And while we don't dislike American culture, it is not OUR culture. I would think that if America was suddenly, or slowly, becoming more and more of a culture that is not American, you would have concerns about what is happening.

And, yes America is not attempting to rule other countries, it is still a fact that much of the media is controlled by American values, politics, and culture.

I don't remember which comment it was Asitis..lets move on now.....

I don't remember which comment it was Asitis..lets move on now.....

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 9:23 PM

Here Jasper, let me refresh your memory:

Kate I think Jasper was all for you asking your students to think... until he realized that you weren't TELLING them what to think.

Good luck Kate. I'll be in touch.

Kate,

Thanks. It's good that you're having this debate in class, many teachers would not. I get the feeling you're a good teacher :)

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 10:44 AM

Posted by: asitis at February 23, 2009 3:56 PM

So why did you delete this Jasper??????

Jodes,

I think America is losing/has lost it's own culture in a way..and yes, I am concerned...

Jasper, That concern is what those in other cultures feel is the 'Americanization' of said countries. We are proud of our countries and cultures, and want to keep them.

And this is the one of Kate's that you deleted early on.... again, WAY before that supposedly offensive Hitler comment of Dustin's. Why?????

Asitis,
Yeah, that is one of the things I plan to do. And thank you for your kind words.

I would like to talk to you more about the pro-choice side, away from the pointing fingers of this blog. Since I asked them for their opinions in a place where they wouldn't be ridiculed, I'd like to do the same for you and other pro-choicers. Maybe you could visit my class' blog, and in the very first post I made there, you can find my email address. (I want to make it a little bit of work to find my email for obvious reasons)

Posted by: Kate at February 23, 2009 1:38 PM

"So why did you delete this Jasper?????"

I don't remember Asitis. Can we forget it now?

Jasper, how could you NOT remember? Or do you delete comments often?

Or do you just not want to say, because it shouldn't have happened?

"We are proud of our countries and cultures, and want to keep them."

I say good, do what you can to preserve that. I don't my own country having any world-wide dominance.... I guess I just misunderstood the whole Americanism' thing...

Jasper, misunderstandings happen, a lot. And the advice I always give is to stop, and think. And then ask questions. Most people are not hateful, and do not mean to upset other people so much.

Most misunderstandings can be cleared up with one or two simple questions.

Jasper, I tried to explain this to you hours ago. Maybe you just weren't ready to listen:

Instead of thinking of it as "anti american BS", think of it as "proud to be canadian".
Posted by: asitis at February 23, 2009 2:57 PM

Jodes 9:23PM

Please refer to my 7:09PM post.

When I was growing up cultural, religious, and ethnic history and pride were taught by parents and family. Maybe Canadian parents and families aren't doing their jobs.

If this is so important to Canadians, then take matters into your hands.

Mary, I agree with you. I was NOT raised with both of my cultural identities (Canadian and Dutch)being taught. And it is not my parents generation, I think, so much as my generation that is concerned with the thought of a loss of a Canadian culture.

And, as I have grown up and seen more of the country, I have seen more and more people my age being aware of it and taking the matter into their own hands, in a variety of ways. But, the concern is still present simply because the USA is right next to us. I think that if we, as a generation, had grown up in a stronger culture, it wouldn't seem like such a concern now.

As an aside, I learned a LOT about my Dutch family when a cousin of mine published a family history going back to the 1500's on the internet!

Looks like someone needs a drink!

I'm sorry, I know we're trying to have a civil discussion here now for the first time today.
But if Canada were to really take matters into our own hands and become more closed off to the world in order to preserve our culture and identity, what do you plan to fuel your cars with...and heat your homes....do you plan to drink salt water?

Kate, I don't think anyone is really suggesting that we isolate ourselves.

Right?...

I know Jodes, but what I'm trying to say is that it's impossible for Canada to not be affected by the United States. There's no way we can get away from feeling the influence of the American culture, there's nothing we can do about it.

Kate, I know that. I suck at sarcasm and wit online.

I think everyone does Jodes :-) it's impossible to hear tone and expression over the internet

Jodes 9:58PM

I was raised with as an American and my parents dwelled little on my German and Russian cultural heritages. I always considered American history to be MY history. I attended a racially, religiously, and ethnically mixed school where some families clung more strongly to racial,ethnic, and religious identities. Fine. If this was so important to the parents then they should pass it on to their children.

If members of your generation have this concern then by all means take matters into your hands.
Its your responsiblity, and no one else's, to preserve your culture and pass it on to future generations.

How interesting that you could learn of your Dutch ancestry. I have always taken great pride in my ancestry though I am first and only an American. I have very limited knowledge of my ancestry.

Kate 10:06PM

The Amish who live right in the midst of American culture do a fantastic job of preserving their culture. So do the Native Americans who live near me.

Mary, I have always thought of myself as Canadian first, but also Dutch. My Dutch grandparents tried the hardest to instill a cultural pride in me. I am always proud to say that I am the first generation Canadian on my Dad's side. :D

And, I totally agree. It is not up to us to make sure our culture doesn't disappear. But, can you understand that it may be difficult when America is right on our doorstep, and it is a very powerful culture?

I actually found out that one of my friends I met at school is actually a distant relative of mine, thanks to this family tree!

* it IS up to us.

Many of those cultures, especially the Amish have very isolationist policies.....What do you think would happen to BOTH Americans and Canadians if Canada or the United States were to adopt an isolationist policy in an effort to preserve culture? We're mutually dependent, like it or not. Our economies depend on each other. Since our economies are co-dependent, it's impossible for our cultures not to be effected. And since the United States is the greater power, Canada faces increased Americanization, rather than America facing Canadianization.
The American economy is not dependent on the participation of the Amish. Same with the Native Americans.

Jodes 10:21PM

How interesting about your distant relative! I had a pile of family history in letters, pictures, documents etc. My biggest fear was my children would lose so much of their heritage and history if I did not organize it.
Good grief Jodes, looking back I don't know how I took on such a task. I threw everything on the basement table and had no clue where to begin.
I'm so proud of the finished result. I had to depend on my very elderly mother and aged relatives to fill me in, but I feel I've preserved my family's heritage, what I know of it anyway, for future generations.

Mary, My cousin (who is about 20 years older than I am) worked for 10 years to manage to get all the info for this family tree. Seriously, it is simple incredible what he managed to do. I don't think I would know even one tenth of what I know now if it weren't for all his hard work!

Kate 10:27PM

The Native Americans don't isolate themselves. They are a very influential tribe and very prominent in the community. They run businesses, integrate with the majority population, etc.
However, they do retain their unique cultural identity. More power to them.
They took on the responsibility of doing so. Good for them.
I'm saying Kate it can be done if people so choose.

Oh, and the Amish. They run farms and businesses and conduct business outside of their community. They are not all that isolated, only determined to maintain their seperate identity. More power to them as well!

I'll be eating Campbell's Soup at Hand Classic Tomato Soup and a Schwans Toastwich grilled cheese sandwich on Wednesday, Bobby, since its a meat free (Ash Wednesday). What are you eating? :)

If it weren't for Canada, we wouldn't probably have Hockey.......or that Miracle that happened during the 1980 Winter Olympics.

Those who oppose abortion in Canada, though, barely have any rights to oppose it. Colleges are starting to forbid pro life clubs. Is that right? :(

I have had the opportunity to spend aproximately 6 months total in Mexico. The longest single stay was about 6 weeks. I also spent time in Guatemala, Cuba and Canada. I was born and live in Texas and have visited about half of the 50 states including Alaska. My wife is 'natural born' Canadian citizen.

All the different countries I have visited have a unique and distinct culture. Canada is as different from the USA as the USA is from Mexico. The architecture in Canada is different. Most Canadians that I have met have no desire to immigrate to the USA, just like most USA citizens have no desire to immigrate to Canada.
Home is home.

If you are a liberal and love socialism, then re-locate to Canada. Immigration is relatively simply and there is plenty of land available. Their per capita spending on 'defense' is much lower than the USA because they allow the USA to carry that burden for them. You would think that taxes would be much lower in Canad since they do spend as much money on national defense and you would be wrong. Not as confiscatory as England or France, but still much higher than the USA. If you live close to the US border you can always get immediate medical attention there if time is critical. The lines get a little long and some medical technology that we take for granted in the USA is scarce in Canada.

Canadians are wonderful people. I should know I married one. You are much less likely to be murdered in Canada but you are also less likely to be able to own a firearm to protect yourself.

The roads and highways are comparable in quality, there just aren't as many of them. Social programs eat up a good portion of the national budget, so the infrastructure is not yet what it could or should be.

If you really want to experience socialism in it's fullest then move to Cuba. Especially if you are a doctor. A doctor and an auto mechanic make about the same wage. The taxes are so high on cars made after the revolution there is a great demand for mechanics to keep the prerevolutionary relics rollind down the road.
Of course the 'created more equal elites' drive new cars and live in large modern homes and have immediate access to the best their health care system has to offer.

The Haitians, who have it worse than the Cubans, risk their lives and put out to see on makeshift rafts and pass up Cuba and it's socialist paradise, in hopes of reaching the USA.

We have around 12 million illegal imigrants in the USA most of whom are from Mexico and Central America. The only city in the western hemisphere that has a larger poplutation of El Salvadorans than Los Angelos, Califronia is the capital of El Salvador.

Most of these illegal immigrants from south of the border paid huge sums of money and risked their lives to come to the USA. Even though the Canada immigration laws are much more user friendly, most of these illegals choose to settle and work in the USA.

Mexico and the Central American countries have immigration laws that are just as restrictive as the USA and are more strictly enforced.

If the USA and it's melting pot culture is soooo bad, then why do people risk so much to come and live here and why do they 'choose' to assimilate as much as they do?

These people vote with their feet and with their pocket books in favor of the United States of America.

Not to mention the people from all the other parts of the world who immigrate to the USA, legally and illegally.

Where they come from will probably always be their home, but the USA is their first choice for their second home.

yor bro ken

There's no way we can get away from feeling the influence of the American culture, there's nothing we can do about it.

If it's any comfort, some of us who are citizens of the American culture don't like the way it influences our own lives !! Look at the bickering we do about it here.

Seriously, I have two good buds in Canada. One of them used McDonalds as an example of Americanism. Big US corporations like McDonalds have the funds to expand into other countries. What chance does a little start-up Canadian burger joint have to compete against a multinational company like McDonald's? She explained it as more than exporting our fast food culture. It's also an export of US corporate influence on the Canadian economy. Just as some Americans are passionate about buying American, Canadians can be rightfully just as passionate about buying Canadian.

Now, you good Canadians commenting on this thread may disagree with that. But that was the example my friend used to set me straight on a few neighborly issues between our two countries.

"If you are a liberal and love socialism, then re-locate to Canada. Immigration is relatively simply and there is plenty of land available. Their per capita spending on 'defense' is much lower than the USA because they allow the USA to carry that burden for them."Posted by: kbhvac at February 23, 2009 11:01 PM

Carry that burden for us? really? What nation's troops were n a peace keeping mission in Bosnia? What nation's troops were dispatched on peace keeping missions in Kosovo? What nation's troops are STILL currently in Afghanistan on PEACE KEEPING missions?

There is a difference between open war and peace keeping. There is a difference between open war and trying help re-establish a nation's well being. There is a difference between open war and helping a foreign nation, to receive absolutely nothing in return.

And by the way, there is a little organization known as the UN, and another known as NATO, there are multiple countries under treaty in these organizations that also carry this burden for Canada, and many other smaller nations. When big brother America goes to war, who is right on the front lines with them, with infantry? Every single Canadian military death is reported in our news, as a constant reminder of what our troops and their families give every day for other nations. Don't you dare say that America shoulders the burden of military campaigns for Canada.

Don't for a minute thing that military prowess means Canada relies on the United States of America.

One last thing, the nation in question above in the peace keeping questions is Canada. Peace keeping, not war mongering.

"And should anything be done by Canadians or by the American President Obama to prevent Americanization in Canada and the rest of the world"

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 4:56 PM

------------------------------------------------------

Jasper is correct in his observation that the second part of Kate's question does reflect a bias that 'Americanization' (whatever that is) is bad.

Kate here is a suggestion. Maybe you should define 'Americanization' and then ask your students to identify examples of 'Americanization' in Canada.

For that matter, please define 'Americanization' for us.

Some Mexicans consider them selves 'Americans'. Some of the protestors during the recent immigration debate 'en Estados Unidos de Americanos' read, 'Somos Americanos'/'We are Americans'.

I have been reprimanded for contending that Mexican nationals are not Americans. Is Mexico and/or Canada part of the 'americas'?

If your students are going to have discussion/debate then they should settle on definitions before they begin.

What do you think President Obama could do to prevent the 'americanization' of Canada?

Are you advocating some kind of 'segregation' to prevent cross cultural contamination?

The ebb and flow of people groups cannot help but impact all cultures involved.

How do English speaking Canadians keep from 'anglocizing' the francophones in Quebec?

Does Canadian law mandate that all government documents in Canada be bilingual?

Aren't Canadian schools required to teach 'french' to all students?

You can see how quickly this concept convolutes if you extrapolate it out to its logical conclusion. There is no reasonable stopping place.

Really it is 'censorship' by either requiring or prohibiting a certain kind of speech.

yor bro ken

"just as restrictive as the USA and are more strictly enforced."

Not really. If you are immigrating from other (central american) countries to the U.S. You can get through the border easily if you have enough money or drugs to give them in return for their generosity.

Here are some answers to your questions Ken...
Don't mean to answer for you Kate but i felt compelled.

“For that matter, please define 'Americanization' for us.”
to make or become American in character; assimilate to the customs and institutions of the U.S.

"Some Mexicans consider them selves 'Americans'. Some of the protestors during the recent immigration debate 'en Estados Unidos de Americanos' read, 'Somos Americanos'/'We are Americans'."
SOME, NOT ALL.

“I have been reprimanded for contending that Mexican nationals are not Americans. Is Mexico and/or Canada part of the 'americas'?”
The Americas has nothing to do with the United States, a continental companionship is hardly grounds for cultural assimilation. Chile, Brazil, Argentina, those are part of the Americas, let’s drag them in to this too I guess.

“If your students are going to have discussion/debate then they should settle on definitions before they begin.”
Maybe they have settled on a definition, are you in the class, are your kids in this class, how do you know they haven’t decided on a definition.

“What do you think President Obama could do to prevent the 'americanization' of Canada?”
He could start by limiting the porn exports to outside nations, but that industry, much like Canadian oil, is taxed, so why would he? He could also limit corporate expansion outside of America, shall I go on?

“Are you advocating some kind of 'segregation' to prevent cross cultural contamination?”
Segregation? Isn’t that what the Americans did to the African Americans not even half a century ago? Guess we won’t go there. And cross cultural contamination isn’t the issue here, ITS THE LOSS OF CULTURE COMPLETELY VIA THE MELTING POT.
“The ebb and flow of people groups cannot help but impact all cultures involved.”
You finally made a valid point.

“How do English speaking Canadians keep from 'anglocizing' the francophones in Quebec?”
We are bilingual, we coexist, in Quebec, where French is a prominent language, all signage has larger French letters and smaller English letters, the same goes for labels. The opposite is also correct in the English prominent provinces here.

“Does Canadian law mandate that all government documents in Canada be bilingual?”
Actually, yes all of our government documents are bilingual.

“Aren't Canadian schools required to teach 'french' to all students?”
And no, all schools are not required to teach French, however it is always available.

“You can see how quickly this concept convolutes if you extrapolate it out to its logical conclusion. There is no reasonable stopping place.”

“Really it is 'censorship' by either requiring or prohibiting a certain kind of speech.”
The only censorship is posts being deleted from this blog, like several of mine were earlier today.

Forgot to enter my name in the above post.

Dustin, Canada sounds awesome and all but it SO COLD there!! I'm in the midwest and the winters here are enough for me!

The winters here are similar to yours in the midwest, they are only a few degrees cooler. Sometimes there are misconceptions about the weather here, but we`re pretty cofortable in our igloos :-)

"And should anything be done by Canadians or by the American President Obama to prevent Americanization in Canada and the rest of the world"

Posted by: Jasper at February 23, 2009 4:56 PM

------------------------------------------------------

Jasper is correct in his observation that the second part of Kate's question does reflect a bias that 'Americanization' (whatever that is) is bad.

I just need to clarify this. I posed that question to my students because the kids in the video that they were expected to watch before commenting on the blog posed that same question to Obama when he was a presidential candidate. I did not come up with the question, therefore it couldn't have been reflecting my own biases.

For once why don't you get all your facts straight before you start calling people out.

Oh and go to this link and find out for yourself what Americanization is:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Americanization

I didn't make it up, it isn't this imaginary phenomenon that I've made up to brainwash my students. It's real, and we're not the only ones concerned with it.

I dunno, you get up there in Minnesota and it gets dangerously cold for my taste. (To me anything below 10 degrees is dangerously cold). When we develop energy sources that don't cost so much in heating bills, then we'll talk. I'm already paying 80 bucks a month for my apartment just trying to keep it at 75.

I wish my gas bill was 80 a month...

We recently paid 600 for January.

Holy cow!! 600 bucks?! That's insane.

Do you have a lot of PAs up there?

Ah, but my heating is electric only; luckily I only have to pay towards one thieving utility company.

Posted by: Dustin at February 23, 2009 11:46 PM

Dustin,

I am well aware of the Canadian soldiers contributions in the major conflicts of the last century and up to now. That is not the point I was making.

What is the population of Canada? What is the total number of troops in the Canadian military?

What is the population of Mexico? What is the total number of troops in the Mexican military?

Unless Canada possesses nuclear weapons, how would it defend itself against the Mexican army, if the United States were not in the picture?

The point was not that Canadians lack the courage or the will or the means if it choose to avail itself, but that the Canadian government benefits financially from the military strength of their neighbor to the south. And even though they are relieved of the much of the financial burden of defense spending because of the neighbor to the south, the Canadian people are not relieved of the tax burden because the Canadian governments spend so much money on social programs. You live there, you are aware of the situation.

Compare the per capita spending on defense with the USA. Compare the percentage of the gross national product for defense spending with the USA.

Can you point to any specific demand the USA makes on Canada for the Canadian benefit derived from the strength of the US military. Does the US government require Canada to purchase armaments from US manufacturers?

I am not critcizing Canadians, I am criticizing 'socialism' and 'liberalism'.

If that is what you want, then that is your choice to make.

I do personally know Canadians who are captialists and conservatives and they are not satisfied with how much of their money the government takes and how it spends it. They might not be pleased with my observations, but they would understand I am not impuning the character or the quality of the Canadian soldiers I am pointing out the inherent weakness in socialism and the folly of liberalism.

I would say that Mexico benefits the same way from their close proximity to the United States of America. I cannot imagine a scenario where the United States would not intervene if either Canada or Mexico were attacked militarily?

Can you?

I cannot imagine a scenario where Canada would not intervene if America were attacked.

Can you?

Can you imagine a scenario where either would refuse the assistance of the other?

I can't?

yor bro ken

Kate, I like your blog. Are you actually going to watch Blood Diamond? At our college our Amnesty group hosted it for free after it came out, and it is a pretty graphic movie!!

Yeah, we're actually watching it right now. Started it in today's class, finishing it tomorrow. The kids were pretty shocked when I explained that it's a pretty accurate depiction of what actually happened in Sierra Leone. Hard to imagine, it's heart breaking. It is graphic, but I had the kids get permission to watch it, they've all seen far worse in other movies, and why shelter them from reality? If there are kids out there becoming child soldiers, women and children being raped, people having their limbs chopped off etc. it can't kill them to see it. And like I said, the brutality depicted in Blood Diamond is pretty accurate.

Kate,

The question, regardless of who composed it or who posted it reflects an inherent bias? You could substitute an xxxxization and it would still reflect a bias? It would 'elicit' a response.

yor bro ken

That's true! WOW, your school system must be much more relaxed than mine was- we rarely got to watch 'hollywood' films. IMO, the way to reach children is to just show them and if it is through hollywood films the kids are interested in, the better.

You're totally right PIP, they're far more interested in a movie than being talked to, and even the ones that have seen it before are more intrigued now knowing it really happened.

I can show pretty much whatever I want as long as I can tie it to the curriculum that I am teaching and if it's something that is rated, that I get permission from parents. Luckily for us, we're a lot more liberal up here, although it would seem many people on this blog seem to think liberalism is a terrible thing, in this sense it serves me well.

Are you aware that there are other nations under treaty and pacts other than the US, Mexico, and Canada? NATO pales in comparison to the UN my friend. That answers your question "Unless Canada possesses nuclear weapons, how would it defend itself against the Mexican army, if the United States were not in the picture?" Furthermore, wars aren't won with nukes, how many nukes have been dropped on Afghanistan and Iraq? I think you'd be shocked if you looked in to it.

I fail to see how the strength of the American military poses any structure to the arguement that Americanization doesn't exist, if anything it just supports my position that it has gone too far. Fearing the American military for their might leaves the world with one option, adopt the American ideals, or feel the wrath of their threats and propoganda filled advertisements.

Our social programs that are so widely criticized because of the government spending are the reason we have top of the line healthcare, an education system that can only be matched never beaten, and if those come at the cost of not having nuclear weapons then maybe we have this whole quality of life thing figured out.

If we're going to talk about who gains more from being friends with who, then yes, Canada certainly benefits more from our relationship with the US, not because your guns are bigger, but because your bellies are. Consumers consume, seems pretty basic, you like our lumber, you like our oil, you like our water, you like our vegetation, you like our beef, this list is limitless and just opens an entirely new can of worms.

Thank you for proving that Americanization extends beyond the materialistic world and Hollywood, and exponentially in to world domination and fear. It didn't work for the Romans, and it didn't work for the British, and it didn't even start for Nazi Germany, so when the mighty US falls, little brother Canada will be there to pick up the pieces as we do for other nations around the world, with, or without nuclear weapons.

Yes, Kate, I'm sure it does work in your favor! Let me know about your kids' reactions after you finish it!

Dustin,

Unlike the government, privately owned entities such as this web site, can limit speech anyway they see fit. See the rules and guidelines.

I may not agree with the moderators decision to remove a post or ban a blogger, but the rules are posted and the moderator makes the determination and you can appeal to Jill.

I am pretty thick skinned and I would not ask for post to be removed just because I did not like what it said or it insulted me directly by name. I can live with that.

There has only been one instance when someone posted an insult to someone else that was so vile and violent thatI contacted the moderator and asked him/her to consider removing it. I doubt that anyone would have objected to my request.

There was a post with a link it that went to a 'porn' site. I recomended that post be removed.
I doubt anyone would have objected to that request.

Government 'censorship' particularly in the USA is verboten, particulary political speech.

We have the right to speak. We do NOT have the right to be heard, but we do have the right to hear.

I try to present arguements and I try to refute arguements. If your opinion is near and dear to you and it might upset you if it gets dismantled and discredited, then take a deep breath and go for it and hit the post button.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but not all opinions are equal and you are not entitled to 'your' facts.

We will examine the facts and see if they stand up to examination. 'We' is not the moderators. 'We' is us. The posters.

If the right to free speech is anything, it is the right to be offended.

There have been some personal attacks that I thought were the top, but even then I resisted the urge to admonish the writer.

If my discourse is ever judged to be over the top then I invite my peers to 'judge' not only my words but my motives.

When you post you are inviting comment or you are looking for affirmation.

Even if you are just trolling.

yor bro ken

Dustin,

The only occasion where nuclear weapons were used, they may not have won the war, but they ended the war and in the ending prevented more deaths of both civilians and soldiers than than they caused.

There is a concept called 'deterent'. Only a madman without nuclear capability would attack a nation that had both the ability and the will to defend themselves with a nuclear weapon.

No rational leader without nuclear capabilities would ever consider attacking Canada or Mexico even if the US did not have nuclear capabilities either. There is no imaginable pay back in that as the world is presently constituted.

I never argued that 'americanization' does not exist only that the question as it was posed was inherently biased. 'americanization' was presented in a negative way.

I know during the cold war and even still today in the case of Cuba the US sponsors radio and perhaps telebvision broadcasts into communist countries through programs like, 'Radio Free Europe'.

America does not have a monopoly on the production and distribution of pornography. It is world wide in many different languages. Neither does Hollywood have a monopoly on movies with gatuitous violence and titulating sex.
I am sure Canadians produce pornography and make movies with sex and violence.

You are not seriously trying to suggest that the USA has corrupted Canada in these areas, are you?
Canada has a distinct culture, but Canadians are humans with the same proclivties as all other humans. The same crimes that occur in the USA occur in Canada. Your crime rate is lower, but it is the same crimes. Canadians are subject to the same dysfunctions as Americans, alcoholism, drug addicition, domestic violence, divorce,etc.
Surely you are not suggesting those affictions find their epicenter in America and 'americanization'.

How would Canadians respond if Americans posed the question:

"And should anything be done by Americans or by the Canadian Prime Minister to prevent 'canadization' in America and the rest of the world?"

How would that go over in Canada. Or you could substitute Mexicanization or Japanization or Chinesization or Muslimization. Pick your 'ization'.

All of that sounds equally bigoted to me.

I am just one American but I have never met another american who was interested in 'world domination'. What does 'americanization' have to do with that?

The UN would collapse in short order if the USA were to pull out. It is corrupt and impotent. Do you really believe you could rely on that insititution to save the West. It cannot even manage to save itself.

I do not dislike Canada or Canadians. But you obviously dislike America and Americans. Is America perfect, certainly not, but neither is Canada or Canadians, but you cannot lay the ills of the world at eithers feet. Canada and Canadians are different from America and Americans only by degrees. What does the sign say at Peace Arch Park? 'Two children of a common mother.'

As far as trade goes I would say it is a reciprocal relationsip that is mutually beneficial to both parties.

'Our social programs that are so widely criticized because of the government spending are the reason we have top of the line healthcare, an education system that can only be matched never beaten, and if those come at the cost of not having nuclear weapons then maybe we have this whole quality of life thing figured out.'

Now you are making my point.

I will just say that I take exception to your claim that Canada's healthcare system is top of the line. Socialist make the same claim for Cuba.

As far as your education system goes, I can not offer an informed comment at this time.

But the last part, is not anything I ever claimed.

The 'nuclear weapons' is only a part of the USA annual defense budget.

But that part alone might equal what Canada spends annually for health care or for their entire military. If either of those is close to being true then, you are agreeing with one of my original points. That money Canada does not have to spend on defense goes into social programs that are no more sucessful there than they are in the USA.

That would be one example where Canada has been 'americanized', or the converse might be more true the way american liberals point to the Canadian model of healthcare as something to be ascribed to. Heathcare is one area were America is about to be 'canadized'.

yor bro ken

If the USA and it's melting pot culture is soooo bad, then why do people risk so much to come and live here and why do they 'choose' to assimilate as much as they do?

Ken, it's not that the USA is bad!!! For heaven's sake.

Okay, let's think of it this way. I live in my neighborhood for a variety of reasons, mostly price. Over the last few years I have really come to love the culture of my neighborhood. It isn't Manhattan by any stretch -- it's its own little micro-city fifteen minutes away, with its own dominant ethnic groups and their own influence on local business.

We have quite a few local coffee shops. Italian ones, a French one, Greek writing on awnings everywhere, some Middle Eastern coffee and baked goods shops, etc. It's such a treat.

We have two Starbucks, which is fine. The neighborhood is not small and there are two distinct "central" areas, where the two different train lines run, so I get it. But before all the economic problems, before Starbucks had all those issues, there was talk of opening a third, between the two central areas. And you know how that goes.

Now, it's not that I hate Starbucks or that I think it's soooooooo bad. (Well, the coffee ain't great and the prices aren't either, but bear with me.) But not-bad as it may be, it's not the culture of my neighborhood. On my less cynical days I might be generous and say it's Seattle's culture, but mostly I just think it's "corporate" culture. (As so much overseas American influence is.)

And you can say all you want that if you don't like Starbucks then shop elsewhere. But you know how neighborhoods go once a Starbucks opens up. It's the same as WalMart. My boyfriend's hometown protested and protested when the WalMart was built -- they did not want it! -- but 15 years or so after it sprung up, basically all the Main St. shops have closed down. These things have an impact on communities and cities -- of course they have an impact on foreign countries. And all the people who don't choose to assimilate here, who stay in their own cultures -- maybe they don't want their communities to change so much.

You can't control the behavior of your neighbors, but you CAN influence their behavior by discussing these choices with them. What you're giving up when you go for the caramel macchiato in the familiar white-and-green cup instead of the French cafe's latte -- and whether you really want to give those things up. It's fine if you're okay giving it up -- but be aware that that's what you're doing. Those are perfectly valid discussions to have and they imply nothing bad about the things they're weighing. And it sounds like Kate was initiating that kind of discussion among her students.

Alexandra,
Speaking of Wal-Mart, you should watch "Wal-Mart, the high cost of low price". Excellent documentary about Wal-Mart. You'd really enjoy it. After watching it Dustin and I made a choice to never shop at Wal-Mart again.

And yes, thank you Alexandra, that is EXACTLY what I was trying to do with my students. I never meant to come across as an "anti-American fraud" because that is far from what I am.

Oh, yeah, Kate, I'm not really big on Wal-Mart. We don't have them here in NYC really anyway but when I visit the suburbs I try to make other choices.

Have you read The Wal-Mart Effect? http://www.amazon.com/Wal-Mart-Effect-Powerful-Works-Transforming/dp/0143038788/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235491579&sr=8-1 It's a few years old by now but I really recommend it. It wasn't like some anti-WM cliche. It actually left me with a lot more respect for the company than I previously had -- but also cemented my decision to make other choices as a consumer, whenever possible.

Do you guys have Aldi in your area?

They aren't everywhere, but I think everyone here would really like them. They only offer their brand of everything, but it's all really high quality. They pay their employees really well and offer really good insurance to everyone.

They cut down on waste by encouraging customers to bring their own bags from home, and other inovations.

They're able to charge a lot less for their products while still paying well. If you have one in your area, I'd definitely check it out!

I suppose we have other stores sort of like Aldi. It sounds like our "Superstore".

Ken,

You cntinuously miss the point about Americanization, you think it's an insult and take it as such. The things I've said do not mean I hate Americans or America. Take it as you will though, to be honest I only read a fraction of what you wrote and decided talking to you is like trying to ice skate uphill.

You sir are the essence of Americanization yourself.

I hope the US does pull out of the UN by the way, the resulting trade embargos and economic shut down in your country would finally show you that the US needs the rest of world more than they need you.

"That money Canada does not have to spend on defense goes into social programs that are no more sucessful there than they are in the USA."

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at February 24, 2009 3:03 AM

Sorry bud but our healthcare makes yours look like a joke. Watch "Sicko" by Michael Moore, and clue in instead of running your mouth based on your opinion.

Don't bother responding Ken, I'm done trying to inform you of what Americanization really is because you can't see passed your own nonsense and clue in.

Alexandra you are right, it's not the US that is bad, it' the effect that the US has on teh rest of the world.

I can't speak to other stores payrates and such, but it would be great if they also paid their employees well.

Alexandra, where do you live? You said 15 minutes from Manhattan so I immediately thought Yonkers as I grew up in Westchester, but do you live in another borough? Just curious!

What a coincidence, AM! I live in Queens now (Astoria), but I was born in Brooklyn (Park Slope) and spent most of my childhood in Rockland County, about 15-20 minutes up the Palisades Parkway.

Everyone who finds out my geographical history expresses surprise, first at the fact that someone in New York was actually born here (heh) and second that I have no traces of a stereotypical NY accent. Family lore goes that as soon as my older sister began speaking with a Brooklyn accent my dad bought a house in the suburbs, haha. I have a "newscaster" accent. Bland and unnoticeable. :P

Oh, I should add that perhaps the reason people are so surprised to find out I'm ACTUALLY a New Yorker, as opposed to a transplant, is that I work in one of those industries where New York is "where it is" as far as work goes. So almost everyone I work with moved here specifically to work in this field -- and, thus, has movie-related ideas about what people who are "real" New Yorkers actually talk/act like. ;)

And while I love Astoria, I can't say I don't want to bash my head into a wall when I think about how my parents had a brownstone in Park Slope -- and sold it in like 1985. Hindsight's 20/20, I guess. At the time everyone thought they were crazy for even moving to Brooklyn in the first place.

Funny- I grew up on the Hudson right where the Tappan Zee Bridge connects to Rockland! I live in California now and people are surprised when I don't have an obnoxious accent. My sister lives in Brooklyn and loves it. The boroughs are really getting amazing- especially Queens! I used to work for the NYC tourism bureau, and during the big blackout a couple years back I wrote an article on things to do in Queens, and I was happily surprised. Enjoy it before it gets too crowded!

If it was the NYC black-out rather than the Northeast black-out, then that stupid thing ruined several venison steaks I had in my freezer. >:(

But yeah, I love Queens. I'm hoping that the market will stay down for the next three years, because I'm on track to have a down payment for an apartment in that time. For the last two years I was worried that the real estate would skyrocket just before I was ready to buy, but now I'm thinking maybe not....

"Heathcare is one area were America is about to be 'canadized'."

Ken thats different than cultural influence, changing ideals, and losing traditions because of the American influence on the rest of the world. A reformed healthcare system hardly constitutes as Canadianization, get real. Government programs have nothing to do with Americanization, you really don't understand the term do you? I'm going to lay it out about as black and white as it can get, pop-culture, propoganda, corporate expansion, globalization, another endless list of words illustrating how the American stranglehold on the rest of the world increases daily. Americanization does not rest solely in the hands of the American President, the question that Kate used in her class, simply asked how Obama could prevent Americanization from turning in to an even bigger giant, an even more powerful tidal wave of cultural influence.

Maybe the American healthcare system should be "Frenchanized", or even "Swedenized", what difference does it make? It's a change for the better and doesn't lose the identity of the average American in the process.

Once again for anyone that is still confused as to what the definition of Americanization is here you go.
"to make or become American in character; assimilate to the customs and institutions of the U.S."
This can be found at:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Americanization

Just when I thought I was done getting sucked in by ridiculous babble and misunderstandings, I had to go an re-read your post Ken.

And Furthermore, I'm not anti-american, I don't dislike Americans or the American culture. I dislike the misinterpretation of what I say and the snuffing out of fact. The facts presented are not intended to bring down your nation or your people but to defend the question that Kate relayed to her class, keep in mind this was a question that came out of Russia, from Russian students, Russian youth, youth that feel the pressures of Americanization daily, youth from one of the most Americanized nations in the world. It was a question meant to stimulate the minds of youth, not raise a week long discussion in a blog. In fact the only reason this conversation started was because Jasper called Kate an "anti-american fraud", a pretty personal attack against a Social Studies teacher that is supposed to address world issues. But hey, I guess a smoking barrel wins over an informed discussion these days because there is always the option to say "I'm sorry", shoot first, ask questions later?

Dustin 10:18am

Michael Moore? Please don't make me laugh. He also praised Cuba's health care system, overlooking Cuban hospitals with broken windows, flies, and overflowing toilets and the fact that Castro imports Spanish doctors for himself, something the average Cuban can hardly do.

I am certain that when Mr.Moore begins suffering serious health problems due to his long term morbid obesity, that he will not be checking himself into a Cuban hospital.
Mr. Moore might set a good example of taking responsibility for one's health by losing some of his lard.

A Canadian liberal member of parliament by the name of Linda Stronach was referred to California for her late stage breast cancer surgery by her Toronto physician. This was a medical decision based on the fact the California hospital was the best place to have it done.
Ms. Stronach was able to pay for this on her own.

Tell me Dustin, would the average Canadian middle or low income woman have this same option?
Also, if your health care makes ours look like such a joke, why ever did this woman have to travel to California?

Actually Mary, It's BElinda Stronach

Correction. The MP's name was Belinda Stronach.

"Spanish doctors for himself, something the average Cuban can hardly do"

However, spanish doctors also work under a universal health care system. All it shows is that Cuba sucks and the Spanish are handling it better.

Kate,

Looks like we posted the correction at the same time.

PIP 4:04PM

I think it shows the Cuban universal health care system has one standard for the average Cuban and quite another for the Cuban leadership.
It looks like this may be the situation in Canada as well.

Money talks, bullshit walks. A woman with breast cancer but without a large bank account balance would receive the same treatment, she may be put on a list but she would receive the same treatment. It's better than being refused treatment because she doesn't have insurance or the funding to cover it.

Michael Moore also praised the French healthcare system, care to comment on that? I implore you to find fault in their system.

One might also ask why did that woman defect from her political party to join another, why did she have a relationship with a hockey player, why does she dye her hair copper blonde #3. It's irrlelevant.

Your healthcare IS a joke, a friend of mine who lives in California has a sack of fluid around his heart that causes him to black out, that causes severe vomitting, that causes him to sleep 16 hours a day, that he can't have removed because he can't afford it, and because he isn't married to his girlfriend who has insurance that would cover the costs. He can't work due to this condition, yet the government does not give him any funding, nor will they cover the surgery for him. So tell me Mary, who has this healthcare thing figured out and who doesn't?

Get back to me when you know a thing or two about Canadian healthcare, be sure to include the advantages and disadvantages.

According to Ken, a disadvantage is we can't afford nukes, you're gonna have to think of a better one than that.

yes Mary, it would seem we did

Dustin,

Putting this woman on a list might well result in her cancer being too advanced by the time her turn comes up.

You missed my point, Ms Stronach was referred to California because the hospital was best able to meet her medical needs. She had the money to go to the US to get care she couldn't get in Canada, which you say makes our medical care look like a joke.

Michael Moore praised the French health care system? You mean the same Michael Moore who praised the Cuban one? It must be obvious to you Dustin that Mr. Moore's standards are, well questionable.
The French meet deficits in health care by reducing other public budgets.
If the gov't tries to curtail medical expenditures physicians strike.
Both these factors make cost control very difficult for the gov't.
Poor most likely to get care in French public hospitals. Just like here in the U.S. That pesky old double standard again!

Who has this health care thing figured out?
Dustin get back to me when you can explain why such a prominent member of your gov't as Ms.Stronach had to leave the superior healthcare system of Canada to come to the lowly U.S.
Do all Canadians have this option or just those who, like Ms.Stronach, can afford to pay?

She's hardly a prominent member of the government. I didn't say our healthcare is superior, there's that good old fashioned misinterpretation I referred to. And yes your healthcare system is a joke, and will continue to be a joke until those with money are treated the same as those without. Why should Belinda Stronach receive better treatment than my grandmother because she has the money to pay for the procedures required? Maybe my grandmother works with orphaned children and devotes every waking hour to needs of others, does she not deserve treatment? Nope she doesn't, because she can't write the cheque "Pay to the order of" ".

I guess no matter where you go there are issues, we should all just adopt the American healthcare system, apparently it works, but there seems to be somewhat of a flaw.... The rich get richer as they live, the poor get.... deader? Sure.

Don't give me that Holyer Than Thou Art crap, my friend will slowly fade away and die his painful death while Belinda Stronach continues to be a burden on our government as a "Prominent" member of it.

Excuse me while I go talk to another wall.

Dustin,

She is a member of your gov't. I won't argue how prominent she is but she's not your average every day citizen.
Our healthcare system is a joke until those with with money are treated the same as those without? That sounds like the situation I just described in your country, as well as in other universal health care heavens.

Nothing holier than thou from me. You're the one calling us a joke.

As for Ms.Stronach I wish her a full recovery and a long life.

Sorry but when it comes to healthcare in her own country she's nothing more of an average, everyday citizen, that's why she went somewhere that values the dollar over life. In the US she has a bankroll, meaning she's better than the person with a few dollars less and not quite adequate insurnace.

I wish her a long life as well, but hopefully she does something with it, perhaps volunteer some of her overpaid time to a cancer institute, or participates in a cancer research fundraising walk.

"You're the one calling us a joke"...... once again, not the people, the system. Don't take it so personally, it's not like you're the minister of health for all of America.

Mary,

My elderly mother who doesn't have alot of money or income gets very good health care, I believe it's under the medicare system (for retirees)..

Dustin,

Has your friend applied for medicaid assistance?

Although he is in California, which is in such a finacial mess....

Dustin,

Please, she went to the US for care on the advise of her doctor because she could not get the needed care in Canada.
She could do what the average Canadian cannot because she has the money and means to do so.
Again, that pesky double standard.

Dustin believe me, I take none of this personally. I very much enjoyed our discussion.

He's a 28 year old man, and he's dying, he has applied for every form of assistance out there. Wouldn't you? It's sad that human life has a price tag, and its unfortunate that it's encountered in all countries. By no means am I saying only in America is healthcare reform required.

Trust me Mary, she would get the care here, it's a matter or urgency and timing however. She would get the care she requires here that I assure you, but if her pocket can allow care a few weeks earlier; then she did what any death fearing person with money would do.

I'm not saying what she did personally was wrong, I'm saying its unfortunate that anyone with monetary backing can get the care required days after they pay for it, and those that really need it, but can't afford it are condemned to death by the dollar they don't have.

I will agree with you about the double standard Mary, it exists and is impossible to refute.

Yes, thats awful Dustin. Sorry about your friend.

Jasper,

I'm glad to hear your mother is well cared for, as is mine. Unfortunately medicare, like any gov't program is hugely expensive and I'm not certain just how solvent it is or will remain.
The paperwork and red tape is mind boggling.

Dustin,

Yes there is a need for reform and double standards are a sad fact of life.
Ms.Stronach could not get the specific care she needed in Canada, and for this reason was referred to California.
I've known people who have had to be flown to different states for certain procedures. Not all hospitals or communities will always be able to provide the necessary care or specific procedures.
Like Jasper, I am deeply saddened and sorry about your friend. What angers me is the money spent treating illegal aliens in California yet your friend can't get any help.

Correction. The MP's name was Belinda Stronach.

Posted by: Mary at February 24, 2009 4:03 PM

Oh and she sure can afford to pay for it on her own!

Dustin, I'm very sorry about your friend. Do you know if he's contacted his local legal aid society for help in appealing his public assistance denials? If not, he should consider it.

He can also call nonprofit hospital(s) in his area to find out how to apply for their assistance program. He can ask to speak to someone in the social services department to see if there are county or state resources he may not be aware of. He can contact the Health Consumer Alliance for help finding a public or nonprofit hospital.

I wish your friend the best!

As a nurse, I assure you, there are flaws in both the Canadian and United States systems.

I prefer the flaws in the US system to the flaws in the Canadian system.

In the US system, yes, there are people who fall through the cracks. Most people, however, are able to get the healthcare they need and that in a timely manner.

In the Canadian system, everyone gets healthcare, but the process is so long and drawn out that it seems almost pointless by the time they got it.

Hubby's grandmother fell and broke her hip this week. She was in the hospital that night having surgery and is now recuperating and receiving physical therapy. She is on Medicare. She didn't have to wait... and she wasn't told that she was too old to benefit. Both of those happen in the Candian system.

Is our system perfect? Of course not. But I am so sick of people saying that in the US poor people can't get health care. I work at an inner-city county hospital where we provide, despite our limitations, top-notch care to those who have little to no resources.

I am gratified on a near-constant basis by the generosity of the human spirit. In Arizona there are constant fundraising events held for the care or to help cover the bills incurred by such care by the members of the community. Car washes, pancake breakfasts, chili cookoffs, motorcycle rallies... the list goes on and on and that doesn't even include the local news notifying us of certain issues and that a fund has been set up at such and such a bank to accept donations....

These acts of generosity do not, unfortunately, solve the entire problem for all US citizens. (And as our paychecks are taken away from us by the increasing socialistic plans of our government individual citizens will have less available to give.) At the very least, however, we have the possibility of meeting at least some of those needs.

In Canada, where no amount of money can change the time frame or whether someone, in the government's eyes, "deserves" certain procedures, how do Canadians assist their fellow citizens? Obviously, raising funds wouldn't do any good... unless those funds were utilized to send that person to the US where they could purchase the care they need now... not six months from now.

And, in addition, where will Canadians go if the US system changes to resemble theirs? Where will urgent healthcare needs be met? In unlicensed Tijuana or Caribbean hospitals?

In Canada, where no amount of money can change the time frame or whether someone, in the government's eyes, "deserves" certain procedures, how do Canadians assist their fellow Posted by: Elisabeth at February 25, 2009 12:14 PM

Those that can, assist their fellow citizens constatntly Elisabeth by subsidizing the health care of those less fortunate so that everyone gets coverage. Albeit it's not perfect, but that's how it works in Canada.