"Ties to the 'hate America' crowd?" You mean the Republican party?

Reality said: ""Ties to the 'hate America' crowd?" You mean the Republican party?"

Obama has ties to the Republican Party?! I thought he was cool, man. I thought he was for hope, and change.

He's friends with Tom Coburn.

OK kids:

Tell me what hope is Obama going to give us?

And you think hope is that Islamic terrorism will go away by submitting to their demands? The only way that Islamic terrorism will go away is if we bow down and sumbit to their false god. What do you think is happeniing in Europe right now? So what you're telling me is that you are willing to become a Muslim? This is hard to understand since most atheists and pro-aborts on this site support Obama. You think the mullahs are going to let you be an atheist and live. Or will you just be closet atheists just going through the motions to survive? And you think Muslims allows abortion? Heck, they want more believers. You even ask for an abortion and off with the head.

And you think hope is guaranteeing the murder of children in the womb by consitiutional fiat? I testify to you that if that happens God will destroy this country.

And you think hope is having the government pay for your health care? Where's the government going to get the money to pay for this? You young people should especially be hopeful about this because you will becomes slaves to the government paying for all of us all old folk baby boomers' social security and health care costs. And if the government prints more money to do it, you will see 50% annual inflation and 25% interest rates. So forget that dream home and car and college for your kids. Yep, that's real hopeful.

Obama is a phantom, telling people what he thinks they want to hear and the sad part is many believe him without thinking about the consequences. It shouldn't surprise me since the same type of thinking leads to immoral sex and abortion. Doing things without thinking them through leads to destruction.

Obama is the definition of destruction.

On the cartoon: "Cool" only matters in high school. It has nothing to do with getting along in the real world. It's hard to explain that to an 18 year old.

You believe that the Republican Party is for limited government?
Where have you been for the past 7 years?
What's happened to the budget, the deficit, regulation and personal freedoms over the past 7 years?
Virtually ALL of the devout Republicans I know have become Libertarians in the last 3 years. Their disgust with the 'Pubbies knows no bounds...

Tell me what hope is Obama going to give us?

Jeez, where do I begin? A better economy, a speedy withdrawal from Bush's pointless adventure in Iraq, affordable health care, more funding for education, more funding for family planning, more funding for comprehensive sex education, infrastructure improvements, qualified, moderate judicial appointments, passage of the Prevention First Act, passage of the Freedom of Choice Act, abolition of "don't ask, don't tell," federal rights for same-sex spouses, less culture war and more progress, less corruption and more accountability, etc.

...no more Mexico City Policy, no more abstinence-only, no more federal abortion bans, no more "faith-based" welfare for religion peddlers, no more attempts to revoke Planned Parenthood's funding, improved image of America in the world, etc.

And you think hope is that Islamic terrorism will go away by submitting to their demands? The only way that Islamic terrorism will go away is if we bow down and sumbit to their false god.

So what are you waiting for? Bow down and submit! 'Cause God knows the Bush administration is doing nothing at all to capture Osama bin Laden or stop Al Qaeda.

And you think hope is guaranteeing the murder of children in the womb by consitiutional fiat? I testify to you that if that happens God will destroy this country.

Bring it on! It's been 35 years since abortion was legalized, and so far America is still standing.

And you think hope is having the government pay for your health care? Where's the government going to get the money to pay for this?

Same place every other civilized nation in the world gets it: by cutting out bureaucracy and improving preventative care. No country in the world has ever gone down the crapper paying for universal health care, and the US won't be the first.

Excuse me Laura:

We've been fighting a war. Wars costs money. We are making the investment over there so that our freedom won't be destroyed by Islamic, extremist terrorists.

Personal freedoms? Yes, I want the terrorists caught before they nuke you and me and my family and friends. Yes, I want the murder of children in the womb to end.

I will agree that there has been more spending than I would have liked to see. However, it was George Bush's cuts and changes that were opposed by viturally every Democrat and liberal Republican in the House and Senate. Who tried to reform Soc. Sec.? Who wants to make the tax cuts permanent? Who opposes this stuff? And if you don't think taxation is one of the biggest assaults on our personal freedoms you have absolutely no understanding of what freedom means.

Don't tell me you think things would have been better under a Gore administration who is seeking to hoodwink every living American with new taxes under the hoax of Global Warming? Have you not heard that the cooling and heating of the planet are natural occurences that coincide with the sun's activity. I mean the sun is one huge atomic bomb going off every second times a trillion, trillion and if you don't think that that's going to vary and not have an effect on the earth, which is only 93,000,000 miles away, then you don't understand physics. Don't you know that it only takes the light from the sun 8 minutes to reach planet earth? And here's the sad part: Gore knows all this stuff. And he is willing to trick and lie to gullible people like you to steal money from you and you are all too willing to let him do this. It's amazing to me. This guy had a $2,400.00 a month natural gas bill on his mansion in Tennesee until it was found out and that he suddenly went green. This guy is a liar, hypocrite and deceiver without equal.

If we get a Democratic administation, taxes will be raised, new taxes will be introduced, homosexuality will be normalized, abortion will be guaranteed, our Health Care system will become socialized and hence, downgraded, political correctness will be the new bill of rights. And you call this freedom and hope and change? You know what this is Laura, this is communism. You know Laura, one of the principles of freedom is to think for yourself. You however, have given up your freedom to the likes of the Clinton, Obama, and Gore and the Democratic Party by buying into their lies.

How do I know they are supreme liars? Because they are the most ungodly and depraved people on earth. Anyone, that thinks or speaks that making abortion legal is beyond depraved and everything that comes out of their mouths is a lie. Anyone willing to kill an innocent, precious, unborn child can do the utmost evil and cannot be trusted and that's the truth Laura. The sooner you realize it the bettter off you will be. What concerns me more than anything Laura is that we have a generation of young people willing to follow these godless, reprobates. My generation has failed you Laura and I am so, so sorry that I did not do what I needed to do to stand up to these criminals in the '60's.

Laura: These are smart people. They have law degrees. They know how to think critically. They have read the Bible, they know what it says about homosexuality, they know what it says about abortion. They choose to ignore it and their condemnation is assured. Even knowing this, they lead others like you, who are willing to believe their reachery, to hell with them.

Reality:

The shedding of innocent blood is paid for by the generation that followed it. Ever heard of the Civil War? How long did God put up with slavery before it culminated in this bloody war in which 600,000 died?

You think that we're going to get away with the shedding of the innocent blood of 50,000,000 children in the womb? Your proud declaration: "Bring it on! It's been 35 years since abortion was legalized, and so far America is still standing." kind of sums up the mindset of your generation. It makes me weep.

The Bible says this:

Proverbs 16:18
Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before stumbling.

Ezekiel 24:25
'As for you, son of man, will it not be on the day when I take from them their stronghold, the joy of their pride, the desire of their eyes and their heart's delight, their sons and their daughters,

You are utterly lost Reality.

Reality,10:40am,

Not to mention Bill Ayers, former terrorist bomber.

The ironic thing is that the under the
anti-choice dolt George W Bush abortion rates
have GONE UP from what they were under the
Bill Clinton whom conservatives love to
revile.That's due to the lousy policies of
his reprehensible regime.
Normalize homosexuality? What a laugh!
Do you think that a republican administration
will stop people from being gay? Gays have
existed from the very beginning.You can no
more stop them from being that way than you
can stop some people from being left-handed.
It's a perfectly natural thing.Homosexual-
ity exists in the animal world.I am left-handed,
but not gay.Just because the bible contains
certain statements against it does not mean
that we should blindly accept those passages.
Conservatives interperet the bible selec-
tively.They rail against gays,and enjoy
shrimp and lobster,which the bible calls
"abominations".Do you anti-choice folks on this
website like shellfish? Sorry,you're bound
for hell! What a laugh!
The bible does not mention abortion anywhere,
either permitting or banning it.
There is no record of Jesus ever mentioning
homosexuality,but there can be no doubt that
some Jews in his native Palestine engaged in ,
just as everywhere.

Umm, where do you think the money to fund the war is coming from? If the government can find a way to fund billions of dollars a day toward this pointless Vietnam-reminiscent war in Iraq, they can afford to pay for health care.

In Great Britain, they instated health care for all citizens following WWII. They had no money, their country was devastated, but they said, "Hey, you know what guys... if you all help pitch in a little bit, our whole community can be healthier." And you know what? They are.

For all the good our selfish, yeah that's right, selfish "look out for number 1" viewpoint has done for our health care, Europe has healthier citizens. In fact, we actually spend nearly half the world's total health care budget with worse outcomes.

And those high taxes? Well, the Economist actually ranked Denmark, Finland, and the Netherlands with better business environments. They pay higher wages, but have strong social safety nets, longer vacations, secured pensions, paid family leave, and so on. When I think about that, I think... wow, I could pay higher taxes, but get more vacation time, be guaranteed retirement money, and guaranteed health care? Wow, all my taxes really DO come right back to me!

Need more evidence? Americans are getting shorter (Princeton University study) in a world where average height is indicative of social health. In other words, taller is better. (In fact, we used to be the tallest people in the world.)

Oh, and ... according to studies by the World Health Organization, Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, United Nations Human Development Index, American Medical Association, Center for Economic and Policy Research, Global Working Families Study, and the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance, the US ranks worst or next to worst in:

Overall child welfare
Health care system ranking
Poverty rate
Income equality (rich/poor gap)
Air pollution per capita
Carbon dioxide emissions per capita
Personal savings rate
Income and pension security
Balance of payments
Municipal waste per capita
Development assistance to poor countries per capita
Longevity
Infant mortality
Child abuse
Depression
Anxiety
Obesity
Murder rate
Incarceration rate
Motor vehicle fatalities per capita
Vacation time
Paid family leave
Paid sick leave
The size of its middle class by percent
Voting rate
Press freedom
Personal freedom

It is a big myth that our society is the most free, the best in all ways, and whatever. Yeah, we produce the highest GDP, so that means we're the richest country in the world, but our citizens are suffering and working harder, and working longer hours, and going to the doctor less and sacrificing our personal freedoms, all in the misguided fantasy that we'll one day end up on top. Meanwhile, the divide between the rich and the poor gets bigger, the middle class is disappearing, and the rest of the developed world is laughing at us.

So yeah, I'd say I'm ready for change. And I don't care if that's Obama or Clinton, but get those damn Republicans away from the controls because THEY'RE the ones taking away our personal freedoms, voting in the interests of (and giving tax breaks to) wealthy individuals and corporations, as well as ensuring our citizens become sweatshop workers just to feed their children.

Pro-lifers - take note: If you want abortions to go down, you're going to have to provide for your citizens first.

HisMan,

Oh yes Al Gore, the high priest of global warming. He has no credentials in science or climatology but that's beside the point. His home uses more energy in one month than we use in a year.

By the way, those new lightbulbs that are supposed to save the planet? Don't break one in your house. It'll likely require a Hazmet team to clean it up. They are highly toxic because of mercury and you will need to take special precautions should one break and for their disposal as well.
Oh, and they're more expensive to boot.

For more info google "mercury toxic light bulbs".

Just a small example of this lunacy called manmade global warming.

" It's a perfectly natural thing.Homosexual-
ity exists in the animal world."

Syllogism 1:
1. If it exists in the animal world, then it is perfectly natural.

2. Homosexuality exists in the animal world.

Therefore, homosexuality is perfectly natural.

Syllogism 2:

1. If it exists in the animal world, then it is perfectly natural.

2. Eating one's young exists in the animal world.

Therefore, eating one's young is perfectly natural.

Edyt, 12:31PM

Would name for me specifically what freedoms you have lost? Can you no longer vote or read what you want? Are you no longer free to exercise your religious beliefs or lack thereof as you see fit?

"Overall child welfare
Health care system ranking
Poverty rate
Income equality (rich/poor gap)
Air pollution per capita
Carbon dioxide emissions per capita
Personal savings rate
Income and pension security
Balance of payments
Municipal waste per capita
Development assistance to poor countries per capita
Longevity
Infant mortality
Child abuse
Depression
Anxiety
Obesity
Murder rate
Incarceration rate
Motor vehicle fatalities per capita
Vacation time
Paid family leave
Paid sick leave
The size of its middle class by percent
Voting rate
Press freedom
Personal freedom"

Ha, ha, ha, and Reality thinks we're still standing. Sounds liek we're teetering on destruction to me and it started under Lyndon B Johnson when he muzzled the church back in teh 1950's.

You pro-abort liberals can't even get together on your facts because you believe in an entropic mess of chaos.

Mr. Berger:
Please don't turn this into a Jewsih debate, i. e. making idiotic claims that the Jewish word that Chrsitians interpret as virgin means young woman. Every rabbi knows that proper exegesis requires that the meaning of the word be derived from the contect of the passage.

And regarding your inane comment about shrimp and lobster, I guess you discount the entire New Testament and the Book of Acts written by you guessed it, Jews?

And to say that the Bible doesn's condemn homosexuality is an assertion only a self-deceived, liberal pro-abort could make, used to fashioning idols in his own image.

Yes, HisMan, continue to laugh at the facts and believe the myths of our culture. Can you prove our country DOESN'T rate worst or next to worst in those areas?

Concerning carbon dioxide emissions. Stop breathing everyone!

I notice methane emissions from cows wasn't put on the list. I've heard serious concern expressed over this as well. Seriously.

Mary, have you ever heard of the Patriot Act?

Edyt,

Yes I have. Please answer my question. What specific freedoms have you lost?

I don't really care if you "believe" in the facts or not. That's not my job.

But some of us actually care about the state of our economy and our well-being and are voting with that in mind. So keep laughing at Obama and Clinton supporters, because I can be willing to bet they'll be the ones having the last laugh.

Well, freedom of the press us up there. Personally, that affects me. Believe it or not, newspapers have been censored by government agencies, particularly in the form of FOIA requests, which are woefully years behind and often (not surprisingly) lost or forgotten.

The government has used its power to willfully silence those opposed to its methods (particularly those speaking from within the government).

Government can monitor religious or political institutions (without even suspicion of terrorist or criminal aims!)

The government has stopped public immigration hearings, making them private, as well as detained hundreds of people without charges and encourage politicians to not answer questions on that subject if they can be made public record.

The government can access your library records or any other records, as well as prosecute those who release those records if they say the government asked for those records.

The government has made it so they can monitor conversations in jail between attorneys and clients, as well as deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes. Also, it can jail Americans without a trial for an indefinite period of time. They will not be able to confront witnesses or know what they are being charged.

The government can unreasonably search Americans papers and other documents without probably terrorist causes.

For further investigation to the loss of our freedoms, feel free to check out any of the specific topics on The Cooperative Research History Commons project: Loss of Civil Liberties.

P.S. There are a lot of topics on how the government conducts secret business, monitors its citizens, and has expanded presidential power.

1984, anyone?

The shedding of innocent blood is paid for by the generation that followed it.

Blah blah blah.

Ever heard of the Civil War? How long did God put up with slavery before it culminated in this bloody war in which 600,000 died?

Uh, have you read the Bible? God is vehemently pro-slavery, judging by his book. Try again.

You think that we're going to get away with the shedding of the innocent blood of 50,000,000 children in the womb?

Absolutely. Because "we" haven't done a damn thing except let women decide for themselves whether or not they want to be mothers. No one has to have an abortion in the United States. It's not required. It's not mandatory. It's not even encouraged. It's discouraged. Government is not responsible for what women do with their own bodies.

Your proud declaration: "Bring it on! It's been 35 years since abortion was legalized, and so far America is still standing." kind of sums up the mindset of your generation. It makes me weep.

It makes me jump for joy, because false prophets like you should be ignored.

Edyt 1:09PM

This doesn't even approach the WW2 era when liberal Democrat icon Franklin Delano Roosevelt put American citizens in concentration camps, after confiscating their property and businesses.

Furthermore, Bush has said that atheists should not be considered citizens, nor should atheism receive support from the government despite the fact that the government often provides for religious organizations.

It's not really religious freedom when you provide for one over the other.

Mary, you didn't ask me about liberals or conservatives, you asked me which freedoms were being taken away. Do you want me to go through our entire history to find all the examples?

Ha, ha, ha, and Reality thinks we're still standing.

Aren't we? I know you're busy prostrating before Allah because it's the "only way that Islamic terrorism will go away," but the Democratic party is certainly still standing. Sounds like you're in desperate need of some hope, HisMan.

Okay, I'm hearing nothing in response but crickets, so when you finish scouring the internet in an attempt to prove my information is wrong, I'm going to do other things.

For all the blathering the people on this site do about "the truth", you sure are hesitant to accept it.

Edyt 1:04PM

Please, the personal freedoms you have lost, specifically for yourself. Concerning the press, has the gov't shut down newpapers, magazines, radio stations or has it censored the internet? Actually private businesses can censor what their employees see on the internet while using company computers.

So if you oppose something the government does, you are silenced? I hear our media and entertainment industry criticizing and ridiculing our government and leaders all the time.

Government can, but does it, monitor religious institutions with our without terrorist aims? If terrorism is involved, I have no issue with it. Have you heard of any houses of worship being shut down or raided by police or federal troops? The only raid I ever heard of was by a bunch of gay AIDS activists who raided a Catholic Mass and desecrated the communion service. If the government is monitoring my church its a huge waste of time and resources.

I have far less fear of the gov't accessing my papers, library records, etc. than I have of identity thieves and sickos who install cameras in hotel rooms and bathrooms to get their thrills. Those are the people who scare me and truly infringe on our freedom and privacy. I can't say I'm thrilled about being on camera every time I enter a place of business or my workplace, or that my computer activity at work is very closely monitored.

Some of what you are referring to does involve the threat of terrorism. Yes there are certainly unjust situations such as people being wrongly imprisoned, denied their rights, etc. That certainly is nothing new, has happened before and will again. These situations had nothing to do with the government and more to do with inept police and lawyers.

Pro-lifers - take note: If you want abortions to go down, you're going to have to provide for your citizens first.

and more accountability, etc.
Posted by: reality at April 27, 2008 11:30 AM

Apparently more accountability is meant for the government and not individuals?

If more individuals were personally accountable for their actions they wouldn't need the government to take "provide for them"...

So what, we should teach kids how to have all the sex they want, and then pay for their "mistakes"?

Just what exactly are YOU, the citizen going to do?

Edyt,

I thought we were talking about the loss of freedom under Republicans. I pointed out that Republican George Bush doesn't hold a candle to Democrat Franklin Roosevelt when it comes to depriving people of personal freedom.

It's not really religious freedom when you provide for one over the other.

I thought atheists didn't believe in religion. Are you now saying that atheism is a religion? Does that mean that Stalin was the leader of a "religious" war? HAH! So from this statement I gather that atheists are responsible for many of those "religious" wars you're always throwing in our faces?

Does this mean that every atheist that every molested a child can be held up as examples of how depraved atheism is the way you hold the Catholic priests up to us?

Well, freedom of the press us up there. Personally, that affects me

Well, since the newspapers are biased liberally, what does that tell you? Who exactly is doing the suppressing?

Well, Mary, if you're all for the government inching away our personal freedoms in the name of safety, go for it.

I don't think I have to be personally affected by a loss of freedom to speak out against it. Otherwise, all of you who have never had an abortion have no right to speak out against that either.

Oh, and by the way, as a member of the press, I am personally affected when I can't access information from the government which is supposed to be a transparent institution. I believe I mentioned FOIA requests? Backed up, forgotten, "lost" and whatever. The government is not transparent and it is taking away your freedom behind closed doors because YOU'RE too SCARED to stand up against your government and be a REAL patriot.

MK, MK... you are so sadly misinformed. That the press is "liberal" biased is a myth that I debunked a month or two ago.

I thought atheists didn't believe in religion. Are you now saying that atheism is a religion?

First of all, thanks for taking that out of context, but I see how I may have not been clear enough and said enough words to make people really truly understand the point.

Separation of church and state.

Then, state contributes to church similar to how it contributes to other organizations, claiming church/religion is not what it's contributing to, but that it is contributing to the organization.

Then, the state denies contributing to atheist organizations because of its lack of religious affiliation, thus making separation of church and state a myth and providing bias against those without religious faith.

Remember kids, religious freedom includes the freedom to not practice religion.

I did not say that the bible does not condemn
homosexuality.What I said was that just because
there are passages in it which do does not
mean that we should be hostile to gays.
Why don't you conservatives mind your own
damn business? If you disapprove of gays,that
is your right,but what consenting adults do in
private is nobody's business,certainly not the
government's.Gays have never been a threat to
me.None of them has ever hurt me or tried to
force me to be gay.And I am not a knee-jerk
liberal;there are some left-wing extremists for whom I have nothing but contempt.I loathe
political correctness and multiculturalism.
The lack of free speech on many US college
campuses is appalling.But the conservative
agenda,and that of the religious right is
far worse.

Does this mean that every atheist that every molested a child can be held up as examples of how depraved atheism is the way you hold the Catholic priests up to us?

If an atheist molests a child and American Atheists or another large atheist organization attempts to cover it up and not address the problem ... then yes.

See, the big difference between the Catholic Church and other churches/religions that have molested kids is that the CC didn't take responsibility and attempt to fix the problem. It tried to sweep it under the rug. That's why it became a big deal.

Edyt,

I agree the gov't is inching away at personal freedoms. Its telling us what lightbulbs to use, even if they are mercury toxic. Its tells people they can't smoke in their homes or permit it in their place of business. It tells us what kind of cars we should be driving. It even told us what kind of toilets to use, which incidentally used more water than it saved. People were going from my hometown to Canada to buy toilets!

Yes, the gov't is definitely inching away at personal freedom.

Oh noees! The government is trying to make the planet healthier! You poor thing!

1. The government does not mandate which products you buy. If you don't want those light bulbs, don't buy them.
2. You can smoke in your house. And outside. But you can't smoke inside public buildings where other people who don't smoke are likely to be because it infringes on their health.
3. You can drive whatever car you want to drive.
4. I don't know about toilets, but I'm willing to bet you can go to Home Depot and pick out any damn toilet you want. If your hometown does not create a demand for a certain type of toilet there will be no supply.

You created a nice diversion, but those aren't really examples of the government taking away freedom. If anything, it's a nice example on how advertising and consumerism has an effect on personal guilt and purchases. Meh. Big deal.

Hate to digress, but has anyone heard a thing about the massive, thundering protest that was supposed to happen at the Aurora Planned Parenthood today?
A woman on the Fox Valley site said that buses had been chartered, and that they were expecting "thousands" to participate.

MK, MK... you are so sadly misinformed. That the press is "liberal" biased is a myth that I debunked a month or two ago.

Posted by: Edyt at April 27, 2008 1:46 PM

There's no arguing with you because you live in your own little world where "I think it is, so it must be TRUE". You haven't a clue about the real world.

On the cartoon: "Cool" only matters in high school. It has nothing to do with getting along in the real world. It's hard to explain that to an 18 year old.

Posted by: Janet at April 27, 2008 10:53 AM

That's why so many drop out. They are not stupid. They see what a stupid game high school is and would rather take their chances in the real world.

There's no arguing with you because you live in your own little world where "I think it is, so it must be TRUE". You haven't a clue about the real world.
Posted by: Janet at April 27, 2008 2:21 PM

Okay, Janet, bring out your weapons and I'll bring out mine. Prove the media is liberal.

And you think hope is having the government pay for your health care? Where's the government going to get the money to pay for this?

Same place every other civilized nation in the world gets it: by cutting out bureaucracy and improving preventative care. No country in the world has ever gone down the crapper paying for universal health care, and the US won't be the first.

Posted by: reality at April 27, 2008 11:50 AM

Uh yeah. Canada has wait lists for cancer treatment so long that folks die before they start treatment. Rationing is the key to cost containment as is euthanasia. Like the Netherlands involuntary termination. That's what they call it when they kill folks who aren't requesting assisted suicide. The only reason that other countries are not yet bankrupt is that their low birth rate has not caught up to them. The women who helped to nearly double the workforce without doubling the population weren't home bringing up a new generation to replace themselves which is why Europe will lose 75% of its native population by the end of the century.

Reality needs to take a math class.

Edyt,

The government is trying to mandate what lightbulbs you buy. They want to ban our good old lightbulb, I believe by 2012. Nothing preserves a healthy planet like mercury toxicity in our homes. I can only imagine the danger of disposing of these things. I believe you have to check with the sanitation dept. of some government bureaucrat as to how to dispose of these things as well.

There was an effort in California to ban smoking in one's home, though I don't believe it was successful. Also, if a bar owner wants to permit smoking in his establishment, what right does the state have to tell him he can't? That's a big issue in our state now. Who forces anyone to patronize these bars?

Yes we can drive any car we want. But haven't you heard all the terrible things SUVs do? Besides being polluters and gas guzzlers that cause climate change, they drive out of control and even drive into people's homes and knock them off the toilet. What's really amazing is they never have drivers when they do this. I heard some environmental wackos out west burned a bunch of SUVs at a dealership. Supposedly to save the planet.

Yeah, finally we can go to Home Depot but only because those geniuses figured out people were buying them "illegally" and the mandated toilets were causing more water usage than conservation. So much for bettering the planet.
John Stossel, I believe he is on Dateline, had a great show on this. It was a hoot.

You were talking about the loss of personal freedoms and I named a few. Apparently some losses are fine so long as you support the supposed reason. Personal guilt and purchases?
I don't quite understand your point there.

Hippie, please cite your sources.

Hippie 2:32PM

I understand a wealthy Canadian friend of Hillary Clinton's, who was also a member of the government, came to the United Stated for treatment of her advanced breast cancer. Whatever for? Do middle class and low income Canadians have this same option?

I like the enviro groups that focus on education. Many people who are not wackos recycle and reuse. Friends who come to my house are surprised that I use cloth napkins, china and glasses no matter how many people I am serving. I also wash diapers of my own free will because I just don't like being wasteful. You can save a lot of money doing environmentally clean living like breastfeeding, cloth diapers, china dishes, cheap gas saver cars etc. I don't think people who have different habits are bad or anything. But those habits are too expensive for me. When I have extra money I prefer to buy organic food or give to charity or do something fun.

I think that different people have different thresholds. Some won't consider conserving till gas hits $10 a gallon. Some not even then. I bet you could make a cool chart of how sales of cheap gas saver cars go up as gas prices climb.

Mary, there's a big difference between federal and state governments.

I do not believe the federal government should have the power to mandate things like smoking or which toilets you use or anything like that. That's not the government's job. On a state level, if enough people want to ban a certain kind of light bulb, then go for it.

I'm talking about consumerism because you seem to feel like the government is trying to get you to do these eco-friendly things, when in reality, advertisements are doing that. You feel guilty and want to blame it on the government trying to do it, when in reality, it's not really doing much to help the environment at all. On a local, or global scale.

Sorry I don't have time to go look those up for you.
I found that info in reports published by the UN. Not news stories referring to reports.

Hippie, please cite your sources.

Posted by: Edyt at April 27, 2008 2:35 PM

google UN depopulation Europe and UN euthanasia or assisted suicide Netherlands.

That's basically how I found them.

Janet said: There's no arguing with you because you live in your own little world where "I think it is, so it must be TRUE". You haven't a clue about the real world.

Edyt said: Okay, Janet, bring out your weapons and I'll bring out mine. Prove the media is liberal.

Did you read my post? No weapons today, dear.

Obviously Edyt doesn't own her own home...low flow toilets babe. I double dog dare you to find one that isn't low flow. Same with faucets and shower heads...

As for the lightbulbs, read Mary's post carefully...they are TRYING to ban lightbulbs...

Also, by law we must wear seatbelts, kids under 7 must be in car seats, you CANNOT smoke in public within fifteen feet of a building entrance, genetically engineered foods were not proven safe before being placed on the market and since they aren't labeled we have no way of knowing which foods have been tampered with, the newspapers are most certainly biased liberally (if you've proved otherwise, show me again), New York restaurants can't serve food made with trans fats, I can't cut down trees on my own property...the list goes on...

Edyt:

That's the point. What party has been in control of the government for the majority of time since WWI? The Democrats.

And I don't dispute these statistics at all even though I have not verified them. In fact, they prove my point: A nation governed without God's principles leads itself to destruction. And you want even more of tis type of government, for this is what liberals want, freedom from God because they hate God. It is evident. It's insane.

And Edyt, if you think the all powerful government can save us from all these evils, well, you're just plain wrong.

Edyt, you hate God. The God who gave you life, gave you parents, gave you everything you have. You are an ingrate. Unthankful, unfaithful, reprobate, who, despite having the privilege of learning about God has thrown it into the trash can and spit on it.

This verse sums you up Edyt:

Romans 1:

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

MK... like I said, without demand, there's no supply. You want a certain kind of toilet, there needs to be a demand for it. That's not politics, it's economics.

On the "liberal" media.

And like I said, I don't think the federal government should mandate things like toilets and light bulbs. Seatbelt laws, well... since our roads are cross country, then it makes sense.

Please differentiate between when you're talking about state and federal laws because they're two different things. In general, if I think a law will affect citizens from across the country (such as processed foods, which often are moved from state to state), then I think it should be federally mandated. State laws can be more petty, such as smoking bans.

Laura 2:21: Hate to digress, but has anyone heard a thing about the massive, thundering protest that was supposed to happen at the Aurora Planned Parenthood today?
A woman on the Fox Valley site said that buses had been chartered, and that they were expecting "thousands" to participate.

Laura, thanks for asking. It was a beautiful day for a PL rally. I didn't read anywhere that thousands were coming, but there were several hundred people of all ages, many families (and I only saw about 5 to 10 fetal signs, which will make some of you happy). It was very peaceful. We released pink and blue balloons with a name attached to each one to signify an abortion that has occurred at PP. It was very windy, so the balloons are probably somewhere over the Atlantic by now. Baby shower items for the pregnancy centers were collected and counselors were out in front as always, not screaming, but helping anyone who asked for help.

Oh noees! The government is trying to make the planet healthier! You poor thing!

Posted by: Edyt at April 27, 2008 2:01 PM

I wish the gov't would care at least about kids health and quit pushing that nasty usda surplus junk in school lunches. All that grease is terrible for kids and trains them to eat poorly. I got a call from one of my non wacko consumer advocacy groups to support the Fresh Act which would get more fresh fruits and veggies on school lunch plates. Why subsidize farmers to produce unhealthy foods?

MK... like I said, without demand, there's no supply. You want a certain kind of toilet, there needs to be a demand for it. That's not politics, it's economics.

No, Edyt, it's the LAW.

Well, please prove the law mandates which toilet you put in your house. Is it a state or federal law?

Why do you keep evading this?

. The next giant leap in toilet technology came in 1994, when federal law restricted tanks to 1.6 gallons per flush, but to those who used the first generation of low-flow toilets, this leap seemed more of a stumble. "They often needed two flushes," says This Old House plumbing and heating consultant Richard Trethewey. Manufacturers largely fixed that problem by further modifying the passageways to move a reduced amount of water more vigorously into the bowl.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,213021,00.html

first, I wasn't evading it, I was looking it up. Second, you never asked me to show you the law, you just said it was supply and demand. Third, I posted while you posted. There it is, up above this...

That's the point. What party has been in control of the government for the majority of time since WWI? The Democrats.

So... what, you want to make this a Democrat bash? Look, I don't care if it's Republicans in power or Democrats. If they're taking away constitutional freedoms, they're not being very patriotic, now, are they?

And I don't dispute these statistics at all even though I have not verified them.

What statistics? I'm sorry, I wasn't aware you were giving me statistics. Please cite your sources when you tell me what statistics you're providing.

In fact, they prove my point: A nation governed without God's principles leads itself to destruction. And you want even more of tis type of government, for this is what liberals want, freedom from God because they hate God. It is evident. It's insane.

Whatever... apparently other "godless" countries seem to be doing much better. Happier citizens, better economy... yeah, that is what I want! :)

And Edyt, if you think the all powerful government can save us from all these evils, well, you're just plain wrong.

No, I don't think putting more power in the hands of the government is right. However, the Republican party has proved that they are just as power-hungry as the Democratic party, so I don't have a lot of faith in either right now. However, at the moment the Democratic party holds more of my values than the Republican, so that's where I'm voting. If the Republicans held more of my values, I'd vote there, even as a liberal. To me, all that matters is the majority of my opinions. I don't support ALL Republican or ALL Democratic values. That's ridiculous.

Edyt, you hate God. The God who gave you life, gave you parents, gave you everything you have. You are an ingrate. Unthankful, unfaithful, reprobate, who, despite having the privilege of learning about God has thrown it into the trash can and spit on it.

I don't hate God any more than I hate Santa Claus.

Okay, the government is infringing on your right to own a certain kind of toilet. Happy?

(However, you don't have the Constitutional right to a toilet of your dreams, unlike the freedoms I listed)

Edyt, 2:55PM

Whether the laws are state or federal, it hardly matters to the consumer. Rights are being infringed upon. Banning of our lightbulbs is based on junk science and the consequences of mercury toxic light bulbs are considerably more dangerous than any supposed benefit. My husband actually bought a couple and I have no clue how to dispose of them and just hope they don't break. I understand there is no system established for their disposal anywhere in the US as of yet and I only hope people are well aware of their toxicity. I only happen to hear of their danger on a radio program!
By the way, by 2014 lightbulbs will be banned according to a federal energy bill already signed into law. This ban also includes restrictions on automobile choice.

So stock up on lightbulbs everyone. We no sooner get rid of the toilet police then we'll have the lightbulb police.

The smoking ban in bars involves our state right now. All our tavern owners are up in arms about it, since most of their customers smoke and no one is forced to sit in their taverns if they don't like smoke.

Edyt:

If Santa Claus created the world and died for your sins, I could fault you.

However, I too agree that Santa Claus did not have 66 Books compiled into what we now call the Bible that pointed to him, nor had over 500 people that witnessed his resurrected body after his death. Nor have I read that Santa Clause raised the dead, healed the sick, cast out demons, calmed the sea, changed the world, and was crucified.

Si I guess I can agree with you about Santa Claus.

However, where one's intelligence quotient can be measure in how well they can interpret analogs, you would rate at the bottom.

Edyt:

If Santa Claus created the world and died for your sins, I could fault you.

However, I too agree that Santa Claus did not have 66 Books compiled into what we now call the Bible that pointed to him, nor had over 500 people that witnessed his resurrected body after his death. Nor have I read that Santa Clause raised the dead, healed the sick, cast out demons, calmed the sea, changed the world, and was crucified.

So, I guess I can agree with you about Santa Claus.

However, where one's intelligence quotient can be measure in how well they can interpret analogs, you would rate at the bottom.

I'm assuming you mean analogy.

Santa Claus doesn't exist.
You can't hate something that doesn't exist.
Therefore: you can't hate Santa Claus.

Now that you know that, you can reinterpret what I said the correct way. :)

Oh, and you can check out any one of the >31,494 books written about Santa Claus here.

Also, apparently Santa Claus is one of the most famous IFOs (Identified Flying Objects) in history. More than UFOs, Bigfoot and the Virgin Mary combined.

That's a lot of sightings.

In fact, I feel more likely to believe in Santa Claus than God at this point.

Santa Claus doesn't exist.
You can't hate something that doesn't exist.
Therefore: you can't hate Santa Claus.

Gotta chime on this one. It's a little more interesting than toilets. Santa doesn't exist? Didn't you ever see "Miracle on 34th Street"? The Federal Government believes he exists. They deliver several tons of mail to him every year during the month of December, after all!

And The Weather Channel tracks Santa Claus on real radar as he travels the world on Christmas Eve night. Surely that proves that he exists!

You're right, Janet! Santa Claus is NOT eco-friendly! Why doesn't he set up an email address already!?

All that wasted paper...

Noun 1. analog - something having the property of being analogous to something else
analogue, parallel
similarity - the quality of being similar
echo - a close parallel of a feeling, idea, style, etc.; "his contention contains more than an echo of Rousseau"; "Napoleon III was an echo of the mighty Emperor but an infinitely better man"

Ah, sorry, my geekiness equated analog to things like computer models and televisions. My definition of analog is based on how something works. Good to know I should expand it.

Edyt:

As I said before using the analog of God and Santa Claus you demonstrate your lack of intelligence.

You may be educated but I see it has caused you no good.

You are lost as lost can be. (metaphorical analog).

Edyt: Such a party-pooper!

Then BANISH EDUCATION! It's the obvious solution to fix the godlessness in me.

No Edyt:

Don't blame it on education, blame it on the choice you made to not believe in God, despite the fact that the world is saturated with the evidence of His existence.

And this is no accident. When God asks you why you chose not to believe in Him despite ALL the evidence that He exists, He will be able to find you culpable, and state, "You are without excuse, depart from me, for I did all I could to reveal myself to you".

I could educate you that if you touch a hot stove you will be burned. You can be in a classroom and understand it, even take a test a repeat the facts and score 100%. But until you learn to apply what you hve learned and stay away from that hot stove would you be considered wise. In fact, if you decide to spit on the warning, and then go on and touch the hot stove, resulting in injury to yourself, well that's just plain stupid.

Careful, HisMan, if belief is God is faith alone, then there should be no evidence for his existence. If there is evidence, then he should no longer be believed in by faith alone, but by facts. If that's the case, where are the facts? And doesn't the Bible say it takes faith to believe in God, not facts?

I got lost with your hot stove example, since I thought it was the education that led me away from God, not toward it.

Let's talk more about the liberal media. :)

Edyt, there's nothing to be careful about. I know what faith is.

God does not expect us to believe blindly. The Bible is not a myth. The witness of millions of Christians that have lived before us stand as to the faithfulness of God. Christ performed miracles to prove that what He claimed was of God. These events were recorded for your benefit so that it reading the accouts of Christ's life you could beleive in Him. Do you not realize that it actually takes a monumental effort or utter laziness not to believe in God and in Christ?

Does not evidence lead to belief? The Biblical definition of faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. What is it that you hope for Edyt? Do you want to believe that you appear here on this planet for a short while, die, and that's it? I hope for eternal life. I see evidence of the eternal all around me. The vastness of the Universe, the ability to think and imagine, etc.

The world is saturated with the evidence of God. To deny this is beyond understanding and requires a thinking process that defies logic.

God wants you to believe in Him and has provided you with every possible evidence to believe in Him. It is everywhere to be found.

However, you choose to ignore the evidence.

Who, Edyt, has led you away from the truth? And it is a somebody.

HisMan,

I see no need to insult Edyt by suggesting she lacks intelligence. I may disagree with Edyt on any number of things and we may have our jousts, but I in no way would ever deny that she is an intelligent woman and I respect her as such.
I also equally respect your religious beliefs and your right to profess them however you choose to whoever you choose.
Let's discuss issues, agree or disagree, or agree to disagree, but dispense with any personal insults. I'm sorry HisMan, but belittling a person's intelligence is an insult.

Reality:

I will die before I prostrate my self before allah.

And I have plenty of hope, He's called Jesus and not Barack Obama.

Edyt,

I wasn't really even trying to prove anything, just jumped on the bandwagon when I saw that we were listing things the government has forced on us against our will...couldn't tell you if it was the democrats, republicans, state or federal...only know that I'm tired of it.

As for the newspapers, I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say. I believe that they are biased liberally. I'd be happy to look at evidence that points otherwise.

Regarding God...he is not a question that has to be answered or proven. He is a person, of whom you can ask questions. It's not about proving His existence, it's about having a relationship with Him. When you post here, I don't ask you to prove you exist. I take a leap of faith and converse with you. If you answer, I assume you are real. This is also what I do with God. The first step in faith is not finding a rational explanation or indisputable proof...it's saying "hello"...

Mary, then let the word define Edyt:

Psalm 14:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

fool (fl)
n.
1. One who is deficient in judgment, sense, or understanding.
2. One who acts unwisely on a given occasion: I was a fool to have quit my job.
3. One who has been tricked or made to appear ridiculous; a dupe: They made a fool of me by pretending I had won.
4. Informal A person with a talent or enthusiasm for a certain activity: a dancing fool; a fool for skiing.
5. A member of a royal or noble household who provided entertainment, as with jokes or antics; a jester.
6. One who subverts convention or orthodoxy or varies from social conformity in order to reveal spiritual or moral truth: a holy fool.
7. A dessert made of stewed or puréed fruit mixed with cream or custard and served cold.
8. Archaic A mentally deficient person; an idiot.

Mary, take it up with God.

Thanks, Mary, but it's no big deal. That's kind of the regular thoroughfare here... one person makes an argument, the other refutes it with an ad hominem attack...

It's like tennis, except as soon as the ball falls out of court, one player beats up another. Sure, it's not a fair game, but that's the way we play it around here!!

And like HisMan said, don't shoot the messenger.

People who claim that the media is not liberal are usually so far off the charts bonkers left that they make Chairman Mao look like Ronald Reagan. And you seem like you fit the bill, Edyt.

Basically, these wackos think that if the media isn't calling Bush a war criminal every day and demanding that he be impeached/jailed/executed 24/7, then that means that the media is a right-wing propaganda machine. Just look at what's being done to liberal George Stephanopoulos, who dared to ask Obama some tough questions during a debate. Only softballs for our Barry, please!!

But sure, the media isn't liberal. Here's what the publisher of the most powerful newspaper in the nation, the New York Times, said in a commencement address at the State University of New York at New Paltz:

"I’ll start with an apology.

When I graduated from college in 1974, my fellow students and I had just ended the war in Vietnam and ousted President Nixon [light cheering]. Okay, okay, that's not quite true. I mean yes, the war did end and yes, President Nixon did resign in disgrace but maybe there were larger forces at play.

Either way, we entered the real world committed to making it a better, safer, cleaner, more equal place. We were determined not to repeat the mistakes of our predecessors. We had seen the horrors and futility of war and smelled the stench of corruption in government.

Our children, we vowed, would never know that.

So, well, sorry [pause and applause]. It wasn't supposed to be this way.

You weren't supposed to be graduating into an America fighting a misbegotten war in a foreign land [louder applause].

You weren't supposed to be graduating into a world where we are still fighting for fundamental human rights, whether it's the rights of immigrants to start a new life; or the rights of gays to marry; or the rights of women to choose [applause].

You weren't supposed to be graduating into a world where oil still drove policy and environmentalists have to fight relentlessly for every gain.

You weren't. But you are. And for that I'm sorry."

http://www.timeswatch.org/articles/2006/20060529081027.aspx

HisMan 5:10PM

I see only various definitions of the word fool. Nothing about deficiency of intelligence.
I'm sure we have all been fools or played for fools at sometime in our lives, no matter how intelligent we are.

This guy should be sorry for all the people he's leading to Hell.

I wasn't really even trying to prove anything, just jumped on the bandwagon when I saw that we were listing things the government has forced on us against our will...couldn't tell you if it was the democrats, republicans, state or federal...only know that I'm tired of it.

Oh, I see. No big deal, I'm sick of the government trying to regulate random life anyway. I think the government should regulate businesses to some degree (their level of waste, emissions, products) but to let the consumer choose. But the way things have been until now... is the business pays off the government... So it really is the fault of our politicians, red or blue.

As for the newspapers, I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say. I believe that they are biased liberally. I'd be happy to look at evidence that points otherwise.

I already posted this, but if you're interested in more, there's a book by Eric Alterman titled "What Liberal Bias?" (You can read the intro here.

Most journalists are centric compared to the public, but tend to vote on the right when it comes to economics and on the left with social policy, such as homosexuality. It's not a surprising stretch, honestly, that the same people who say "stay out of my wallet" are also saying "stay out of my bedroom."

John, I've done the research for you before, but this time you're gonna have to do it on your own.

Look up those liberal media papers. Then see who owns the paper. Tell me how many of those owners are liberal, would ya dear?

Edyt, you're a member of the press? well that explains a lot.

How the campaign going for Obama?

*sigh* Oh, HisMan. I wish you weren't such a looney.

Mary, c'mon:

You want to defend the blasphemy of Edyt go ahead.

I won't.

What she's does on this site will be called what it is.

And Robert:

Then stop using my tax dollars to pay for schools that won't allow my kids to pray in school. Don't push homosexuality onto me by calling it diversity training. Don't pass laws that legalize murder. Most of all, stop being inconsistent.

Edyt,

I can give hundreds of thousands of examples of liberal bias:

http://www.mediaresearch.org/

http://www.newsbusters.org/

...and just ask Bernard Goldberg who use to work for CBS news, he wrote 2 books -Bias and Arrogance.

I'm not a political reporter. But thanks for assuming.

Here's another really nicely demonstrated article about liberal bias.

I don't know who wrote it, but it's an easy-to-read summary and cites its research.

Liberal s have greater neural brain activity associated with complex mental functions.

That's for you, HisMan. ;)

Oh! Goldberg! And of course... Bias... isn't that the book where he makes undocumented,
exaggerated assertions such as “America’s ten-trillion-page tax code,” "tuition fees that are
about the same as the cost of the space shuttle,” and Laurence Tribe’s “ten million”
appearances on CBS News during the 1980s...

Where basically every claim he makes that the media is liberal is his own personal anecdote, and no research involved whatsoever?

Yes, you're right, that just about proves it!

John K. Wilson said it better than I did.

HisMan,

I don't defend what you call her "blashemy", I defend her intelligence. I also firmly defend her right, as well as yours, to believe or not believe as either or you see fit. I only say that we stick to intelligent debate, not resort to insults.

Mary, that's really noble of you and all, but like I said, that's not how we "debate" around here.

Edyt,

I must be missing something...these were not newpapers (I thought that's what we were talking about) and the stories were about David Letterman (Liberal), Obama, Obama, Obamas pastor and how he didn't mean what he said the way he said it, Obama and an article on the pope title "Welcome Rottweiler"...Where was the conservative bent?

Your second link gave me Bill Moyers on PBS (liberal), Obama, Obama, an article about Ethanol being blasted telling us to look forward to an "ungreen" future, "Liberal columnist Arianna Huffington..." (quoting there), Obama...

Nothing on John McCain, nothing on the war in Iraq, nothing on any conservative topic that I can see, except for a report on FoxNews about the racist Planned Parenthood fiasco, and having seen the script, I can tell you that on this topic O'reilly came across as very "liberal"...

MK, to be perfectly honest, I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Are you talking about Jasper's links?

Ah, you are. Despite the way their names sound, they're actually conservative news sites. They haven't actually added anything to debunk the idea that the media is liberal, but are reporting with an obvious conservative bias.

Gosh Edyt,

I'm so sorry...yes I was looking at Jaspers links. I knew one of us was nuts. Not surprised to find out it's me! If that wasn't liberal bias I don't know what is! LOL...again, sorry. Okay, when I get a chance, I'll look at your links.

Mary:

One can be intelligent but a fool.

Hitler was intelligent.

Stalin was intelligent.

Lenin was intelligent.

Mohammed was intelligent.

Buddah was intelligent.

Confucius was intelligent.

Madeline Murray O'Hare was intelligent.

They all deinied Christ. I call that dumb.

What does that make them in your vernacular?

Besides, Edyt has no problem insulting my God and you think I am going to sit back and take that? Dream on.

HisMan,

many of the people you listed did not deny Jesus or his importance. Buddha said nothing for or against Christianity, he spoused his views on Enlightenment, in fact there are Buddhist Christians, Christian Buddhists, or whatever.

As for Mohammed, he accepted Christ as a prophet, and accepted Christians, and Jews as well as any other groups that follow "the Book" are accepted as valid by Islam, for no previous revelations are outstripped or overturned by Mohammed, and Islam has what amounts to a to each his own doctrine.

Thank you A History of God (which I'm now about halfway through :)) very good/interesting read, very dense and slow though, and pretty complex in the areas exploring philosophy and whatnot.

Dan,

Shoot, there was something I wanted to ask you... argh, I can't remember... well, this post is pointless...

Ah! I remembered the SECOND I hit the Post button! Do you get EWTN?

@Bobby: I pierced my lip. :-x

I'm asking you for a pic right now.

Rae-

say what? lol

Bobby-

it's ok, happens to the best of us ;)

Rae-

say what? lol

Bobby-

it's ok, happens to the best of us ;)

I have a question about the "America-hater" label that gets thrown around all the time from the right at the left. What exactly is that supposed to mean? I don't think that liberals hate America for the most part. I know I don't. I'm distrustful of the American government, and especially this administration, but I certainly don't hate America.

And here's the thing that really bothers me about that term. It always seems to come from people (like Rush Limbaugh for instance) who spend a great deal of their time spitting hatred and vitriol at liberals and "the left". How is that not "America hating" to hate such a large chunk of actual Americans?

Rae-

say what? lol

Bobby-

it's ok, happens to the best of us ;)

ugh, triple post >

"@Bobby: I pierced my lip. :-x"

oh no Rae, your parents are going to be mad.

Hey MK, I was following your discussion with Edyt regarding media bias. My favorite read on that topic is Bob Somerby at the Daily Howler. It's www.dailyhowler.com. He's definitely a left-leaner, but he examines things pretty closely, and he always provides links and quotes to the full context so that you can judge for yourself. He's also usually just as hard on perceived "liberal" bias as he is on conservative bias.

HisMan,

That's been my argument. One can be intelligent and a fool, something I'm sure we've all been guilty of sometime in our lives. I'm arguing that Edyt is intelligent and you should not denigrate her intelligence because you disagree with her and she with you. Intelligently argue your point. I made the same argument on your behalf when people attacked you so viciously a year or so ago.

Confucius and Buddha would have known nothing about Christ so they hardly denied Him. Dan is correct, Christ's birth was viewed as miraculous by Mohammed and Christ is viewed as one in a long line of prophets by Muslims.

I wholeheartedly support your right to defend your beliefs and God, and I equally support Edyt's right to disagree with you and not to believe.

Hieronymous,

It not all people on the left, not at all. But when we see Obama with a pastor that says God da** America, etc, etc a week after 9/11, Bill Ayers, etc. We start to wonder.

But Jasper, didn't some prominent conservative clerics do exactly the same thing? Did that make you wonder about conservatives? It seems like a double standard.

Dan:

You've got to be kidding, right?

Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler murdered millions of people and you do not think this is denying Christ?

Heck, just to be neutral on Christ is to deny Him. Jesus said, "You are either for me or against me". There's no middle ground. So please don't try to rationalize this.

Muslims think that the Trinity doctrine is blasphemy. They cannot conceive of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all in One God. To say that Jesus was a prophet and not acknoledge that He was the Son of God is ludicrous. Jesus was either the Son of God or He was a mad man.

And to say that you can be a Christin Buddhist is also ludicrous. You cannot believe that the way to happiness is by eliminating all desire and the way to eliminante all desire is the 8 paths to happiness. This is heresy.

Jesus Christ said in John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

Acts 4:12
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

You'd be better off reading God's History of God than some made made fable, The History of God. I can see where it's leading you.

HisMan, I was directing it towards those two in particular, though didnt Hitler consider himself Christian? Anyway, I digress.

First, it isnt the 8 path to happiness, it's the eight fold path. Second, it isnt simply eliminating all desire, there are multiple pieces to it.

As for the Bible, I'm not referencing the Bible or Jesus' view of the topic, I'm looking at it from the view of an objective observer. Making the claims you did holds an inherant bias.

As for a God's History of God, no one can say with absolute certainty their way is THE way, for no one has died and come back to tell us so (excluding Jesus, as that too, is a tale from the Bible confirming itself)

And if you're referring to the Bible, I have read that as well. However, the evolution of the concept of God from the original concept is undeniable, simply reading through history can provide that information, as well as Church doctrine. The book explores that evolution and how it pertains to all the (current) main religions, mostly focusing on the three major monotheistic faith traditions: Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. Very interesting read.

Mary:

Excuse me:

They denied the Christianity of their time: Judaism.

How do you think that people will be judged that lived BC?

"But Jasper, didn't some prominent conservative clerics do exactly the same thing?"

It wasn't the same though Hieronymus. There just seems to be a general dislike of America on the far left, now I'm not saying things are perfect and don't need to change, they do -> abortion. Obama's wife scares me more than him, she seems like one angry black women. I can how she got that way, but listening to Rev. Wright all these years.

"Jesus was either the Son of God or He was a mad man."

Not true, did not the disciples get some of the abilities Jesus himself once had? Yet they were not the Son of God, yet God provided them with these gifts. Does that make them mad? They too (well, many) were martyred, perhaps not to the extreme as Christ, but that martyrdom is undeniable. Were they madmen?

Romans 2:
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

"HisMan, I was directing it towards those two in particular, though didnt Hitler consider himself Christian?"

No he didn't Dan, Hitler simply believed that the Arian race should dominate the earth. No Christian, not at all.

HisMan-

Buddha denied NO ONE. He simply provided a path, you can follow that path and simultaneously follow another religion if one so chooses. The path is not exclusive.

How is it not the same thing? Falwell essentially blamed the behavior and attitudes of liberals, approximately half the population of the United States, for the 9/11 attacks. Katrina was the same thing.

How is that not just as hateful of America?

Hier-

Rod Parsley has said the gates of Hell are/will open(ing) on , is that not also damnation?

It's a matter of being politically correct

Dan,

But none of them claimed to BE the Son of God, and therein lies the difference.

jasper-

I didnt say his behavior was Christian, but didn't he consider himself one was my question.

Dan:

Don't twist my words.

Mohammed claimed that Jesus was a prophet and not the Son of God.

Since Jesus claimed to be God, he cannot simply be a prophet, therefore, either Jesus was the Son of God or a false prophet. Why do you think He was tried in Pontius Pilate's court? Because the Sanhedrin accused Him of blasphemy because of His claim to be God and they trumped up some charge to get him arrested for causing civil unrest.

I have no idea how you made some sort of connection to the apostles.

MK-

yet even if Jesus hadn't made that proclamation, could you really consider him mad? I mean, he had all these "powers" (for lack of a better word) and, like Mohammed and other religious leaders, pushed for the poor, the weak, the disabled,, etc to be helped and pushed for an undying belief in God. Viewing him as a prophet and not the Son of God does ot diminish his accomplishments in anyway, in fact it seems to (from a mortal view) expand them. In fact, many thought son of god to literally be offensive, and saw it as an expression of closeness, etc.

@Jasper: My parents will be mad...but hey, at least I get good grades and I don't sleep around, do drugs, drink myself stupid, smoke, steal, etc.

A wee piercing is nothing in comparison. :)

MK-

yet even if Jesus hadn't made that proclamation, could you really consider him mad? I mean, he had all these "powers" (for lack of a better word) and, like Mohammed and other religious leaders, pushed for the poor, the weak, the disabled,, etc to be helped and pushed for an undying belief in God. Viewing him as a prophet and not the Son of God does ot diminish his accomplishments in anyway, in fact it seems to (from a mortal view) expand them. In fact, many thought son of god to literally be offensive, and saw it as an expression of closeness, etc.

Dan,

I wasn't referring to his behavior either, I was referring to his beliefs, as he believed that a dominant Aryan race should rule the earth.

Dan:

The Apostles were followers of Christ and recieved the gifts of the Spirit as promised in fulfillment of Joel's prohecy. What do you think Pentecost was?

I can see you are opening yourself up to doctrines of demons. Make a decision for Christ. It's that simple.

Yes, but in regards to his beliefs, he also believed himself (though by action he obviously was not) to be Christian in some manner.

HisMan-

yeah, doctrines of demons, thats exactly why I'm considering coming back to the Church *eyeroll*

and regardless of whether or not I rejoin the Church, I do consider myself a Christian by my inerrant beliefs esp in that Jesus is my Lord and Savior, and the Son of God who died for my sins.

Dan:

Jesus Christ was the Lamb of God.

His purpose on earth was not simply to do all this good stuff you talk about. He did miracles to validate His claims. That is not to say that feeding the poor, clothing the naked, etc. is not what we should do. However, from God's point of view we are ALL naked and poor and wretched, even the best of us, as a result of our sin condition.

His purpose was to reveal God's nature to mankind, to show us our utterly hopeless condition apart from Him, and to die on the cross for our sins. If Christ was just a good man and not God we are all without hope in this world.

HisMan-

I was giving an alternate point of view that sees the world in a whole different light. They see no one as the savior but the individuals themselves, accepting God is beyond all understanding and that all they can do is follow the word provided to them in their native tongue in the form of the Koran and to follow the messages, themes, teachings, etc therein as they are able to understand it.

"@Jasper: My parents will be mad...but hey, at least I get good grades and I don't sleep around, do drugs, drink myself stupid, smoke, steal, etc.

A wee piercing is nothing in comparison. :)"

Yes, thats true Rae.

Dan:

Then stop compromising the purity of the Word if what you say is sincere.

A man cannot have two masters.

When you make statements like this, "As for Mohammed, he accepted Christ as a prophet, and accepted Christians, and Jews as well as any other groups that follow "the Book" are accepted as valid by Islam, for no previous revelations are outstripped or overturned by Mohammed, and Islam has what amounts to a to each his own doctrine." it makes me wonder what you believe. In fact Mohammed murdered Jews and Christians who did not bow to the sword of Islam when it was demanded of them.

Jesus said if you deny me before men I will deny you before my Father in heaven.

Dan, I am just urging you, until you have a better grasp of the Bible, to earnestly study only God's word and not get off on these tangents that can only do one thing, lead you astray.

I'm not denying Him before anyone, I'm exposing another culture. Having an understanding of other religions and their thought/spiritual outlooks/etc is not blasphemous or holding anyone before Him. ugh.

HisMan-

as for yout "by the sword" statement. He did NOT nor did Mohammed EVER force conversions, in fact, forcing or even persuading anyone to convert was illegal in 700 AD, and Jews and Christians were held as near equals in Muslim society, not to mention (as I mentioned before) what essentially melts down to a doctrine of to each his own in Islam. Until you have any sort of grasp on Islam (and its history) I'd urge you not to make generalizations or uninformed statements.

Dan:

I am aware of the all the different views on God and there are millions of them.

The Gospel is simple.

Christ was born, Christ lived, Christ died, Christ was resurrected, Christ will come again.

It's that simple.

Paul said this in Galatians 1:

"6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ."

HisMan-

If that belief were all that was required I would be able to call myself a member of any Christian sect, however that is not it's entirty. There are, as I'm sure you are aware, multiple nuances, disagreements, etc, as there always has been since Christianity's beginnings.

HisMan 8:13PM

How would Confucious or Buddha have any knowledge of or deny Judaism? They lived in Asia.

Mary-

Good point, Muhammad had no knowledge of the oriental religions and he was nomadic for much of his life and involved in conquest in Arabia. How would those in the orient have knowledge of Jewish customs/thought?

Mary-

Good point, Muhammad had no knowledge of the oriental religions and he was nomadic for much of his life and involved in conquest in Arabia. How would those in the orient have knowledge of Jewish customs/thought?

Edyt, clearly you do not understand how significant it is that the publisher of the New York Times is an extremist liberal. This is the most influential newspaper in America, and content from it appears in papers across the country.

And you're right, sure, the Media Research Center which has compiled hundreds of examples of liberal bias in the mainstream media is really just a bunch of conservative liars. Of course!!

Dan:

This is just a sampling of Mohammed:

"Banu Qurayza
The Banu Qurayza had been reluctant in helping Mohammed against the Quraysh (Keep in mind that the Quraysh tribe were Mohammed's own people). Conveniently once again, Mohammed claimed that he had divine knowledge about a conspiracy by the Banu-Qurayza to kill him. This became his justification to starve the tribe into surrender by besieging their fortress for twenty-five days. He then sentenced every male member of the tribe to death, enslaved all the women and children, and plundered all of their property.

The prophet had an immense trench dug around the main market of Medina10 and then the men of the Banu Qurayza were rounded up one by one and forced to the edge of the trench on their knees. They were offered a last chance to convert to Islam and if they refused, their heads were cut off.11 As soon as one head would roll off, the corpse would be kicked into the ditch, and so it went. By daybreak hundreds of corpses had been piled up in a heap, tangled cesspool of blood, hair, and shreds of flesh. Despite the horrific end in front of their eyes, none of the Jews chose to convert to Islam and faced death valiantly. The blood of nearly 900 innocent Jews stained Mohammed's hands on that black day.12

Their only crime was that they chose to retain their fundamental human right, of choosing their own God and the religion of their ancestors. Hysterical women and children screamed as they watched their fathers, husbands and sons brutally murdered. The majority of them were savagely raped and then bundled off to be sold as 'used goods.' The prophet had the husband of the Jewess Raihana Bint Amr hacked to pieces before her very eyes hours after he had murdered her father.13 After these atrocities he raped the mortified girl and tried to force her to convert to Islam.

Many Muslim revisionist-historians promote the idea that Raihana Bint Amr willingly submitted to Mohammed. According to this logic, it is very natural to imagine that a woman who has just seen her husband, father, brothers, and tribe slaughtered violently before her very eyes, would choose to convert to the religion of the murderer and marry him! Ultimately she refused to convert to Islam as well as marry him so he retained her as a lowly concubine for the rest of his life.14 So much for the 'Apostle of Peace' and his unbounded respect for women. Mohammed was nothing but a serial rapist, who acquired his victims by killing their families first.

Islam's allah has provided yet another timeless Divine revelation which gives his prophet the right to rape and torture women of other religions.

Surat 4:24
"And all married women are forbidden unto you EXCEPT those captives whom your right hand possesses. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that you seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery..."

In short, allah the all merciful is affirming that any non-Muslim woman is fair game to rape provided she is "captured" first - "..lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned..." - how divine!

ugh, another double post.

Alright, well I better be off to bed before the g'rents get tiffed. So I'll hopefully talk to you all tomorrow.

I'll do some reading :)

Alright, anyway, have a nice night, and God bless :)

Mary:

Apparently you didn't read Paul's statement in Romans.

Dan:

You are simple trying to sow confusion and I will have no more of it.

Dan, read this:

"Banu-L-Mustaliq
Mohammed attacked the Banu-L-Mustaliq tribe slaughtering many of its members in a surprise raid, and driving the rest into the sea. They looted away a booty of 2000 camels, 5000 sheep and 500 women! The 500 women were captured screaming and crying while they watched their husbands and sons being slaughtered. The most beautiful captive was Juwayriyya, daughter of the chief of the Banu-L-Mustaliq. Mohammed snatched her to satisfy his own lusts.16 The captured women were supposed to be returned by the Muslims upon payment of a ransom, but the night after the battle itself, Mohammed and his army raped each and every one of them.17

Any human being with the slightest shred of morality has to be nauseated by this man and the religion he preached. Mohammed, the supreme religious figurehead of Islam, sanctioned rape, pure and simple. Not only did the Muslims commit this horrifying crime, they deceived the tribesmen into paying ransom for their womenfolk, who only paid the money in a desperate attempt to save their women's honor.

As Mecca began to feel the economic impact of its trading losses from continued Islamists attacks, Mohammed's power and influence continued to grow in the north. In 628 a.d. the Meccans signed a 10 year peace agreement named, 'The al-Hudaybiyah,' with Mohammed and his Muslim followers. This treaty allowed Muslims to return to Mecca and worship at the Kaba once a year. Out of fear, the people of Mecca would leave their city when the Muslims would come to worship.

Two years later, in January 630 a.d., Mohammed nullifies the treaty of al-Hudaybiyah and invades Mecca with an army of 10,000 terrorists, conquering it.18 He options the citizenry to convert to Islam or be killed by sword (beheading). From Mecca, the 'Muslims' wage Jihad on the surrounding cities forcing them to accept Islam as their religion and Mohammed as their prophet. Through their policy of 'conversion by the sword' Islam had spread as far as Spain, India, and most of North Africa by 637.

Mohammed made his final Hijra in 632 and died unexpectedly 3 months later in June. His friend and father in law Abu Bakr (Father of Aisha) succeeded him as leader of the Muslims.19

The centuries that followed, from the Iberian Peninsula to the Indian subcontinent, jihad campaigns waged by Muslim armies against infidel Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Buddhists and Hindus, were punctuated by massacres, including mass throat slittings and beheadings. During the period of 'enlightened' Muslim rule, the Christians of Iberian Toledo, who had first submitted to their Arab Muslim invaders in 711, revolted in 713. In the harsh Muslim reprisal that ensued, Toledo was pillaged, and all the Christian notables had their throats cut.

Mohammed was in fact a terrorist, criminal, and murderer whose entire life and teachings were based on victimizing innocents and indulging in mindless violence and massacre. He was a man who destroyed peace wherever he went, and in its place brought terror, carnage, and death. So how can it be a mystery to anyone that his teachings - the Qur'an - would reap a harvest any different than what the world is experiencing today?"

HisMan,

Please, what was the statement?

HisMan-

The Quraysh tried to exterminate the Muslims, their own tribemen and their servants, wives, children, etc. It was kill or be killed, perhaps you should read up on your history, again HM. I trust a historian who cites sources and has been published over you and uncited quotations.

Now I'm off to bed, g'night. :)

HisMan,

Kindly answer my post of 9:13PM. Did Paul have knowledge of the Far East and its peoples? I'm at a loss to understand how two people in Asia could have had any more knowledge of Judaism than I would have of the Asian religions of Shintoism or Taoism being that I grew up in the American midwest.

The only nations who seemed to be able to deal with the muslims were Spain and Poland.

Mary:

God knows.

Romans 2:
"12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

@HisMan: Mary isn't asking for Bible quotes as to how Buddha et. al. could have known about Jesus or even Judaism when there *wasn't* any Judaism in Asia. Do you have any historical explanations? Or maybe an explicit bible passage that says, "Peter went to India and met the Buddha".

@Patricia: And how is that?

Jasper, I'm appalled that everyone lets you get away with downright racist, sexist behavior.

Rae, I had my lip pierced for awhile too. I miss it! (Now I'm a professional... sigh... enjoy it while you can!!)

John, an editor is not the be-all-end-all of a newspaper. Believe it or not, whoever OWNS the paper has power to control its content. And because business-owners tend to be conservative for obvious reasons, often newspapers have a conservative or central bent.

Now, I need to know from you what YOU think liberal bias is. Because from some of the studies I've read and posted, the public insinuates a liberal bias when it is actually a quite balanced article or news report. Fox News, for some reason, is obviously conservative and has skewed the news to a measurable degree, yet no one seems to question them.

As for the many "conservative" sites you posted, well they're not exactly unbiased the way a watchdog media group might be, such as the ones I posted.

In fact, I think the "liberal" media is a way of spooking people away from understanding what's really going on in the world. "Oh, we're winning the war in Iraq! It's that liberal media that's reporting otherwise..."

HisMan,

With all respect, that doesn't answer my question. How could Buddha, who I believe was born a Hindu prince, and Confucious, who was born in China, have any knowledge of Judaism and its teachings or knowingly reject them?
This would have been like expecting Peter to know the teachings of Hinduism and knowingly reject them.

Actually, I'll let the New York Times speak for itself.

Rae and Mary:

I don't know what Paul knew except what he wrote in the Epistles. And these writting were revelations from God unless he specified otherwise.

As far as his travels are concerned I would have to study that one.

What's the point of this line of questioning, other that to argue that intelligent people deny God all the time? The Bible call these people fools. The Romans quote explains how people who, prior to Christ or who do not know of Christ, i.e., Buddha/Confucius, will be judged.

Are you trying to validate the teachings of Buddah and Confucius?

Really, there's no sense in any of this. So, just call it a day unless you are trying to tell me you believe in the teachings of Buddah or Confucius.

Getting back to the subject of the original post.

Obama is a phantom.

Most people don't knwo who he is, other than a fresh face, a NEW and IMPROVED version of whatever.

He's not presidentail material.

Most people don't knwo (sic) who he is, other than a fresh face, a NEW and IMPROVED version of whatever.

Look, I didn't grow up in Illinois, but I knew who Barack Obama was before he started running for president.

And if you don't know who he is now, you probably live in a closet.

@Edyt; There are "retainers" that you can get that are clear bits that you stick in the piercing areas to keep them open and disguise the piercing when you need to be "professional". I hope I can get away with my vertical labret at work for 3 months while it heals until I can get a retainer to disguise it.

Rae, I had one, I used to work at a museum and they weren't so fond of the piercing for obvious reasons! But since now I work odd hours I'm just constantly taking it in and out. The retainers work well, but they're plastic so I found them irritating, and I chewed on it all the time.

Three months? Isn't that a long time for a piercing to heal?

Obama:

Edyt, your sophistry is boring.

Obaman is a nobody in politics who has accomplished absolutely nothing.

And this quote is a gem:
"And if you don't know who he is now, you probably live in a closet."

In your 20 or 25 yeas Edyt, you have managed to diss the Creator of the Universe, blaspheme Christ, and encourage others to do the same.

Oh wise one, where have you attained such abilities and powers? From the stone of Aspera or have you claimed the mountains of Equine savoring the Secrets of the Seven?

This is Who you foolishly diss Edyt:

Job 41
1 "Can you pull in the leviathan [a] with a fishhook
or tie down his tongue with a rope?

2 Can you put a cord through his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?

3 Will he keep begging you for mercy?
Will he speak to you with gentle words?

4 Will he make an agreement with you
for you to take him as your slave for life?

5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird
or put him on a leash for your girls?

6 Will traders barter for him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?

7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?

8 If you lay a hand on him,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!

9 Any hope of subduing him is false;
the mere sight of him is overpowering.

10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him.
Who then is able to stand against me?

11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.

12 "I will not fail to speak of his limbs,
his strength and his graceful form.

13 Who can strip off his outer coat?
Who would approach him with a bridle?

14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth,
ringed about with his fearsome teeth?

15 His back has [b] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;

16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.

17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.

18 His snorting throws out flashes of light;
his eyes are like the rays of dawn.

19 Firebrands stream from his mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.

20 Smoke pours from his nostrils
as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.

21 His breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from his mouth.

22 Strength resides in his neck;
dismay goes before him.

23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.

24 His chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.

25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before his thrashing.

26 The sword that reaches him has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.

27 Iron he treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.

28 Arrows do not make him flee;
slingstones are like chaff to him.

29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw;
he laughs at the rattling of the lance.

30 His undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.

31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.

32 Behind him he leaves a glistening wake;
one would think the deep had white hair.

33 Nothing on earth is his equal—
a creature without fear.

34 He looks down on all that are haughty;
he is king over all that are proud."

Oooh, is that the BOOGEYMAN, HisMan?

I'm trembling. Seriously. No, really I am.

@Edyt: That's what the dude said at the piercing place after giving me a reeeeeally long lecture how to take care of it ("MAKE SURE YOU RINSE YOUR MOUTH OUT WITH THE SPESHUL MOUTH RINSE EVERYTIME YOU EAT OR DRINK!!") I checked online, and healing typically takes 8-10 weeks.

I used to wear plastic nose studs and I thought they were okay.

I got a vertical labret because I didn't want something that went inside my mouth and rubbed against my gums and teeth:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=45252607&l=c535e&id=139569

"Jasper, I'm appalled that everyone lets you get away with downright racist, sexist behavior."

what are you talking about? Don't throw accusations out there without backing it up. trouble-maker.

Haha, Rae, I got a really long lecture too. But I loved that piercing because it healed so fast. People used to come up to me and be like "OMG did that hurt?" And I'd just be like, "Nope, it was easier (and less painful) than getting my ears pierced."

For some reason the photo you linked isn't coming up. :(

@Jasper:

Obama's wife scares me more than him, she seems like one angry black women.

I want to call you all sorts of nasty things for belittling Michelle Obama's race and gender in one sentence. Way to play into both racist and sexist stereotypes, a**hole.

@Edyt: Eep! Sorry, I guess I didn't put the whole link in there, lol.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=45252607&l=c535e&id=13956917

Hopefully that'll work.

How long did your piercing take to heal?

Oooh, nice. I had a ring with a ball in the center. Same location though.

I'd say it took about 2 weeks or so. Lips/tongue are areas that heal faster simply because they're prone to a lot of abuse! But I don't think I took it out for at least a month.

And I didn't use a special solution. My piercer, Hank, said just to use a combination of soap (not scented or anything odd, just a basic soap) and water to wash it out, and that worked just fine. I think it was two or three parts water and one part soap. I just remember it was really diluted.

HisMan 10:45PM

I'm trying very hard to be respectful and you keep evading my question. How could Buddha and Confucious know anything about Judaism or knowingly reject its teachings?

No Hisman I'm not trying to validate their teachings, I don't even know what they are. I'm just trying to understand your statement concerning Judaism.

Very sad Edyt:

I think the real you is beginning to show.

No, this is not the boogeyman or santa claus:

This is the One:

ELOHIM......Genesis 1:1, Psalm 19:1
meaning "God", a reference to God's power and might.
ADONAI......Malachi 1:6
meaning "Lord", a reference to the Lordship of God.
JEHOVAH--YAHWEH.....Genesis 2:4
a reference to God's divine salvation.
JEHOVAH-MACCADDESHEM.......Exodus 31:13
meaning "The Lord thy sanctifier"
JEHOVAH-ROHI......Psalm 23:1
meaning "The Lord my shepherd"
JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH.......Ezekiel 48:35
meaning "The Lord who is present"
JEHOVAH-RAPHA.........Exodus 15:26
meaning "The Lord our healer"
JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU......Jeremiah 23:6
meaning "The Lord our righteousness"
JEHOVAH-JIREH.........Genesis 22:13-14
meaning "The Lord will provide"
JEHOVAH-NISSI.........Exodus 17:15
meaning "The Lord our banner"
JEHOVAH-SHALOM........Judges 6:24
meaning "The Lord is peace"
JEHOVAH-SABBAOTH......Isaiah 6:1-3
meaning "The Lord of Hosts"
EL-ELYON..............Genesis 14:17-20,Isaiah 14:13-14
meaning "The most high God"
EL-ROI................Genesis 16:13
meaning "The strong one who sees"
EL-SHADDAI............Genesis 17:1,Psalm 91:1
meaning "The God of the mountains or God Almighty"
EL-OLAM...............Isaiah 40:28-31
meaning "The everlasting God"

"HisMan, I was directing it towards those two in particular, though didnt Hitler consider himself Christian?"

Actually, Hitler was a follower of the occult. He followed the teachings of some Russian babe named Madame Helen Blavatsky. He was most definitely NOT Christian.

yet even if Jesus hadn't made that proclamation, could you really consider him mad?

Dan,

I wouldn't consider HIM mad, but I would consider anyone that called Him the Son of God, or God, mad, if He didn't make the claim Himself.

He is the one that said He was God. That, combined with all He did, is what makes it believable.

Actually, Hitler was a follower of the occult. He followed the teachings of some Russian babe named Madame Helen Blavatsky. He was most definitely NOT Christian.

Hitler was into all kinds of wacky stuff, but Dan's point was that he considered himself Christian. Whether he was ACTUALLY a Christian is up for grabs, but Hitler did say many times that he considered himself a Christian.

For instance, here is a quote from one of his speeches:

“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago — a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.

“Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany collapses today, who is there to come after us? German blood upon this earth is on the way to gradual exhaustion unless we pull ourselves together and make ourselves free!

“And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Munich, April 12, 1922; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1, New York: Oxford University Press, 1942, pp. 19-20. )

And here is another quote from a speech:

“And now Staatspräsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection, where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these fourteen years when they went arm in arm with atheism? No, never and at no time was greater internal damage done to Christianity than in these fourteen years when a party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the same Government.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Stuttgart, February 15, 1933. )

Here is a quote from Mein Kampf:

“The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 562. )

And here is another quote from Mein Kampf:

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65. )

There's loads more. Strangely enough (considering the claims of "Expelled"), Hitler never seems to mention Darwin.....Hmmmmm.....

Posted by: Edyt at April 27, 2008 12:31 PM

The economy? Help it by raising taxes? You ARE kidding, right? Clinton has a better chance of beating Obama because he doesn't ever SAY anything.

Obama: Yes, I'm going to get the economy back on track.

Moderator: How will you do that, what's your plan.

Obama: I'm going to CHANGE things.

Moderator: Yes, how will you change things?

Obama: By getting the economy back on track.

Moderator: Yes, how will you get the economy back on track?

Obama: By change.

Moderator: (Sits slack-jawed at the stupidity.)

It's like an Abbott and Costello skit! He has NO substance! Yes, he's charismatic but so was Hitler. And all the young people (which is by far his biggest demographic) applaud like mad just as the Germans did.

Posted by: Edyt at April 27, 2008 10:50 PM

Gee, let me guess. You "knew" him when he spoke at the DNC right? Yeah, that was AGES before he ran for president.

I did grow up in Illinois and he's hardly the stellar man his campaign makes him out to be. For instance:

In his first run for office in 1995 Obama knocked all of his opponents off the ballot so he could run unopposed. What a guy! Yes, he's ALL about a fair election!

Obama was also involved in a real estate deal with a Tony Rezko -- widely known to be under investigation by the feds. Hmm, who does that remind me of?

I could go on if you'd like....

@Hiero: In fact, Hitler used Nietzsche (sp?) to back up his "racial purity" crap because Nietzsche had many philosophical articles, like the "Ubermansch" (sp? my German sucks) or "Superman" which describes the "blond beast" as being the most moral creature. Of course, Hitler was a dumb@$$ in that he thought Nietzsche was serious when in reality...he was mocking anti-semites and in fact, Nietzsche had nothing but disdain for anti-semites (including his sister, who was an anti-semite and an early Hitler supporter).

Kristen-

Nice claims, except Obama LOST the first time he ran, so somehow I think those claims are bogus, otherwise he would've won his first race by default, lmfao.

And how do you knock someone off the ballot? They have to take their own name off or be disqualified legally from taking the position.

As for Rezko- and? He did nothing illegal, and he is not under investigation for practices. People try attacking him STILL ith Rev Wright, and now that Wright is explaining himself and speaking out, that number seems to be SHRINKING.

As for not having any plans, right, thats why his 64 page blueprint for change doesnt exist, nor do the plans he talks about in his speeches or on his website, oh, and his visits to various places explaining his plans. Yeah, he's got NOTHING. *eyeroll*

Ah, another Hitler comparison, Kristen you're aware EVERY politician can be compared to Hitler? Hitler essentially took every quality that people would want in a "good" leader and twisted them for his own ends.

Dan: And how do you knock someone off the ballot?

You shoot spitwads at them until they give up.

Posted by: Dan at April 28, 2008 9:35 AM

Dan -

What are you talking about? Obama didn't loose he won the Illinois State Senate seat. He did loose his bid for US House but that was not his first election.

As far as knocking off other candidates, that's the political machine in Chicago. Here is a nice little article about it from the Chicago Tribune. Hardly a bastion of conservative thought so you can't say it's bias. Maybe it'll be an eye opener for you. (Note: I did have the year wrong it was 1996 apparently not 1995.)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070403obama-ballot,0,1843097.story?page=1

Remember Dan, these aren't opinions, they're facts.

"Dan: And how do you knock someone off the ballot?

You shoot spitwads at them until they give up."

I hear that's how Charles Fairbanks lost the Republican nod in 1904.

The Buddha denied Christ? Good heavens,
he lived 500 years before Jesus! And if god
sent Jesus to die for our sins,what the heck
happened to the countless people who lived
and died before Christ? Were they sent to hell
for eternity? Surely,there must have been some
very good and kind people before Christ.
What happened to them? The Buddha taught that we
must return many times in different incarnations
to learn all the lessons of life.We learn by
reaping the results of our actions,good and bad.
This makes a lot more sense than just getting
one chance at salvation,and being sent to hell
if we screw up and don't accept Christ as
our savior.What happens to primitive tribes in
isolated areas who never get to hear of
Christ? Do they go to hell? After all,it's
not their fault they never heard of Christ.
By the way,in Muhammad's day,before he
established Islam,there were Christians and
Jews in Arabis,and he had regular contact with
them.

Posted by: Dan at April 28, 2008 9:37 AM

Not every leader can be a Hitler. There are some key items they must possess. First being charisma (and probably the most important.)

Would you REALLY liken Nixon with Hitler? Even the Repubs didn't think Nixon had a chance because he wasn't charismatic and made no attempt to increase his likeability.

Posted by: Kristen at April 28, 2008 10:08 AM

Oh my goodness! Please replace the "loose"es with "lose." What's gotten into me today!

Edyt: if belief is God is faith alone, then there should be no evidence for his existence. If there is evidence, then he should no longer be believed in by faith alone, but by facts. If that's the case, where are the facts? And doesn't the Bible say it takes faith to believe in God, not facts?

Your theory seems logical until you remember the story of the doubting Thomas, and how Jesus gave Thomas proof of His existence, so that Thomas would believe.

Jesus words to Thomas, after he believed, were:

"Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Therefore, one can believe Jesus because of evidence that points to Him, but you can also have faith without evidence, which is a more blessed faith.

Either way, the faith in Christ is still valid, whether by pure faith, or by faith which is produced by seen evidence.

Edyt,

where did I belittle Michelle Obama's race and sex?

(Kristen: 8:14):

Just a humorous diversion from politics: Here's Abbott and Costello's hilarious baseball skit "Who's on First". Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M

Heir,

I just watched a History Channel special on Hitler and the Occult. Blavatsky (who came to Hitlers attention AFTER Mein Kampf. She wrote about a super race that came out of Persia, and then some other guy (can't remember his name) decided she really meant the Germans and he went from there...It was all supernatural hocus pocus stuff (ruins and astrology etc) and Hitler already had the idea that he was someone special, so he picked it up from ther.

I remember reading that he wanted the Sword of Longinus somewhere because whoever possessed that, would be immortal...

I'll look it all up and see what I can find...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Petrovna_Blavatsky

Alice Bailey is also a follower of Theosophy (Blavatsky's Religious Idea) and there is a "Trust" in the UN called the Lucius Trust. It used to be called the Lucifer Trust...It follows the teachings of Alice Bailey. It's an attempt to make a one world religion.

http://www.lucistrust.org/en/home__1

If you're really into conspiracy theories you could have a heyday with this...Blavatsky was a freemason, so you've got Hitler, Darwin, PP, Freemasons, Spritualism, the UN...Be warned, there's a lot of crazy stuff out there. Some of which is probably true, but you could spend months trying to make sense out of it...I had a lot of fun with it awhile back. Definitely makes you think!

Kristen, I don't know Obama personally (however, I have met his wife), but I consider it my business to know who my local and state representatives are when I move into a new area. I kinda like to be informed and know who to write or call when I want my opinion heard. STRANGE I know, but I don't really like to vote for people I don't know anything about.

Secondly, I'm a Clinton supporter first off, but I'll vote for either Clinton or Obama because I'm not dumb enough to vote for someone who represents very few of my values. Obama's inexperienced, yes, but if you go back in history some of our best presidents have been newbies.

Third, Dan already debunked most of what you were saying, which has very little relevance to the current election.

I think it's funny that all you McCain supporters would be willing to vote for someone who almost switched over to the other side. Seems McCain's only really big goal it to become president. It's been a longtime goal of his, you see... and he'll stop at nothing to get it.

"Here's Abbott and Costello's hilarious baseball skit "Who's on First". Enjoy!"

HILARIOUS!

Jasper, I pointed out specifically where you were being racist and sexist and I have nothing more to say to people like you.

Bethany: 10:28:
Jesus words to Thomas, after he believed, were:

"Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Therefore, one can believe Jesus because of evidence that points to Him, but you can also have faith without evidence, which is a more blessed faith.

Either way, the faith in Christ is still valid, whether by pure faith, or by faith which is produced by seen evidence.

Amen!

(Bobby:11:20):

Since you enjoyed the" Who's on First" video, here's another that you or your students might like: "Abbott and Costello - Math":)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WMi5TUJDso

Very sad Edyt:

I think the real you is beginning to show.

Haha. Cute.

Nah, I just got fed up with being polite and courteous and always showing proof of my argument and instead of actually having a discussion that led to something, you and your friends would use ad hominem attacks on me.

So, you know what they say... Grow a thick skin and fight fire with fire...

You want to call me an idiot, go ahead. Not the best way to keep me from mocking you, though.

Posted by: Edyt at April 28, 2008 11:15 AM

First of all I didn't say I was a McCain supporter. I didn't vote for him in the primary.

Second, if you read a little further Dan "debunked" NONE of what I said let alone "most" of what I said. Did you read the article I linked?

Yes, Obama is quite the man for the "little guy."

Posted by: Edyt at April 28, 2008 11:15 AM

And BTW, why would I think it's "strange" that you'd want to know your reps? I'd think it "strange" not to want to know.

The strangeness lies in the fact that you'd vote for someone who buried other candidates in legal BS to run unopposed in an election. But hey, to each his own...

"Since you enjoyed the" Who's on First" video, here's another that you or your students might like: "Abbott and Costello - Math":)"

Hehe, numbers are so cool. 1^3+5^3+3^3=153

Hehe, numbers are so cool. 1^3+5^3+3^3=153

I have no clue what that means! I like numbers, except when they are in equations. :)
What's a "^"?

Seems McCain's only really big goal it to become president. It's been a longtime goal of his, you see... and he'll stop at nothing to get it.

Posted by: Edyt at April 28, 2008 11:15 AM

Ha, ha, ha! Obama wrote an essay in 3rd grade saying he wanted to be President. He's said that over and over again. Seems it was his long term goal as well.

Just days after taking his US Senate seat Obama met with his advisors and came up with the 2010-2012-2016 plan. It was the plan that focused on a 2010 bid for either Governor of Illinois then a 2012 bid for the Presidency with a 2016 re-election. After just a week in the US Senate? Man! What a humble guy!

This is all well known why do some people seem so ignorant of his past? Or is it that they really don't care who leads the country?

He says he doesn't accept money from lobbyist or special interest groups? Wow! Only since he declared his presidential candidacy before then that's where almost ALL his money came from.

Oops! Should read:

"...2010 bid for either Governor of Illinois or re-election to the Senate..."

The carrot means raised to the power, or multiplied by itself that many times. So for example, 5^3 means 5x5x5 or 125. The number 153 has this neat property that if you take the digits of 153 (1,5, and 3) and raise each of the digits to the third power and then add it up, you get 153 back. Neat!

Bobby, sweeeet.....

MK, MK... you are so sadly misinformed. That the press is "liberal" biased is a myth that I debunked a month or two ago.

Come on, Edyt...an extremely liberal journalist tries to prove that she has debunked the idea that the press is not liberally biased? lol

Now that isn't going to be biased research at all...

Cool beans, Bobby!!!

"Cool beans, Bobby!!!"

Beans, yum!

Edyt,

It makes sense that you're part of the corrupt drive-by media (making acusations that can't be backed up), typical pro-abort. You have proven yourself to be quite pathetic.

"Cool beans, Bobby!!!"

Beans, yum!
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at April 28, 2008 1:10 PM

LOL Bethany!

Yes, it seems all someone needs to do to "debunk" something is say it ain't so. Like Dan saying Obama lost his first political run. Never mind he didn't lose. No research, no facts, who needs them!

It's not a liberal press because Edyt says so!

Bobby, I like my bean warm.

For any real number x, e^ix = cos(x) + isin(x)

Euler's formula. It's good to remember how beautiful some of this stuff is, once in a while.

Kristen, lol, exactly. Because she says so.

Bobby, I showed my son Caleb the formula for the number 153 and he was totally impressed. He LOVES stuff like that.

Hoho! Very nice, Doug! Major props. In fact, you get the world's most beautiful equation when you plug in x=pi (pi=3.141592653...) into that equation, because then you get

e^(i*pi)+1=0

What a beautiful equation! The 5 most important numbers in mathematics, all wrapped up in a single equation.

"Bobby, I showed my son Caleb the formula for the number 153 and he was totally impressed. He LOVES stuff like that. "

Oh great! How old is he again? Maybe I could come up with some other stiff he might like...

Bobby, yes, (that's 'Euler's Identity', no?)that relating of different areas of math is awesome.

Bethany, I always liked taking 12345679 and multiplying it by a multiple of 9. 9 itself works, and 18, 27, 54, etc. Caleb might find that cool...

Yeah, that's Euler's equation.

And you just posted a proof of the Pythagorean Theorem. See, proofs are easy and fun!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Too much math!!!!

*eyes burn*

Bethany, I always liked taking 12345679 and multiplying it by a multiple of 9. 9 itself works, and 18, 27, 54, etc. Caleb might find that cool...

Thanks, Doug!!
I'm going to show him right now.

Bobby, can I brag a little as his mom? He is EIGHT, and he's already outsmarting me BIG TIME in school. I have to consult the internet for helping him in his work, and he is just learning in leaps and bounds. He's halfway through his 5th grade Saxon book, and every day he quizzes me and I am floored when some of the stuff he tells me works out on paper. When he's not doing schoolwork, he will read books with Math and Calculator games. He draws patterns and puzzles and tries to quiz me all the time. I can't say I have the same love for math, but I am so happy that he is able to catch onto it like that. I'm one proud mommy!

The "sevenths" are cool, too. They are repeating decimals, the same series, only with a different starting numeral.

1/7 = .142857142857142857.... The "142857" repeats.

2/7 = .285714....

3/7 = .428571....

4/7 = .571428....

5/7 = .714285....

6/7 = .857142....

Doug, I was sitting there trying to figure out what you were talking about. (I have to read things like that over a few times before I 'get it'. lol )

Then I remembered it once I got the calculator out and tried it, and it came up 11111111 or 22222222, and so on.

I think that Caleb has actually discovered this in one of his calculator fun games, and it is so cool how it works! Thanks!!

@Hisman, Dan, Mary, Edyt, etc

All the above posts go round and round ... only HisMan is even close. There are many things to 'get-over'. Jesus is God and not some sort of madman, because He said so. As Hisman pointed out Jesus was killed for claiming to be God ... a the people in the Sanhedrin knew He was not mad nor possessed. ((He just COULDN'T BE God!))

Everything .... absolutely `EVERYTHING stems from this .... Who will make it to heaven is God's/Jesus' call ... HisMan says they entered judgment ... another way of saying God's call. And Mary this judgment does not mean condemnation. We in-no-way merit heaven .... no human does and no human ever has whether their name be Buddha, Mohamed, Moses, Abraham, even Jesus' own mother - Mary; Dan; or Mary; or MK; or me. Heaven is living eternally IN God and such a state is God's willing it.

It really is His judgment/call to invite/welcome any one of us. A Christian is one who actively lives IN Jesus. His/her rewards in this life would be similar to those reaped on Jesus Himself. ((We all like that icing, but will doubt/disparage the Way and His cross!))

One of the main revelations of Jesus was/is God's name. Because His name is Abba (translation: Dad), we are God's children. This might not count very much to you right now, but this is very wondrous to we who find that life is not easy ... courage is a big item for me. Is it for you?

The word 'fool' in the Bible often means 'foolish'. It does not have a dispersive aspect to it, as often the word 'fool' is often connected with IQ (as in 'idiot'). An old saying about only eating the icing-on-the-cake but leaving the cake untouched, is thought foolish.

I thought: How come humans eat sugar and white flour yet cockroaches (which have far less intelligence) will not eat these? Just who is foolish +?

@Doug,

We build on experience ... not on what 'fits' only. The world of desire/thought you live in is called a Cartesian box ... while it may be very safe - not allowing any room for miracles or awe (as if all uncontrollable is fictitious .... it also rejects those who are not 'in' or 'cool' or that smells of poop ... a profound desire/explanation to avoid having babies, eh.

Christ is experienced ...Jesus is experienced ... then WE change to embrace His Being. A baby/pregnancy is experienced ...then we (our desires/thoughts change) to accommodate that experience ... we grow-up. Remaining purposely childless suits your thinking to a 'T'.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Too much math!!!!
*eyes burn*
Posted by: Rae at April 28, 2008 1:50 PM

I hear you! LOL

"Bobby, can I brag a little as his mom?"

Oh yeah!

That is great! You should be proud. I think a solid mathematical foundation is lacking in many kids these days.

So here's a couple things he might find interesting. One is a fact for him, and the other is a challenge...

So suppose you want to multiply a number that ends in a 5 by itself, for example, 85x85. There is a nice little trick to doing this in your head. The answer will always end in the digits 25, and the other digits that you tack on are the number in front of the 5 times 1+(the number in front of the 5). So for example, to compute 85x85, all you need to do is calculate 8x9=72 and tack that onto 25. So 85x85=7225. Or 35x35 is computed by taking 3x4=12 (which is 3 times (3+1)) and taking it onto 25, so 35x35=1225. It's a fun little trick.

Here's a challenge for Caleb. Take any whole number, like 12, and figure out all the numbers that divide 12, except 12 itself. So the numbers that divide 12 are 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 12 (but don't include 12). Now add all those numbers up (except 12) to get 1+2+3+4+6=16. Now 16 is bigger than 12. Let's do the same thing with 10. The numbers that divide 10 excluding 10 itself are 1, 2, and 5. Now add those numbers up. 1+2+5=7 and 7 is less than 10. Here's the question for Caleb. How many numbers (if ANY) can he find that have the property that when you add up all their divisors (except the number itself) you actually get the number back? With 12, we added up the divisors and got a bigger number than 12. With 10, we added up the divisors and got a smaller number than 10. Is there any number where once you add up all the divisors (except itself) you get EXACTLY the number back?

"Bobby, can I brag a little as his mom?"

Oh yeah!

That is great! You should be proud. I think a solid mathematical foundation is lacking in many kids these days.

So here's a couple things he might find interesting. One is a fact for him, and the other is a challenge...

So suppose you want to multiply a number that ends in a 5 by itself, for example, 85x85. There is a nice little trick to doing this in your head. The answer will always end in the digits 25, and the other digits that you tack on are the number in front of the 5 times 1+(the number in front of the 5). So for example, to compute 85x85, all you need to do is calculate 8x9=72 and tack that onto 25. So 85x85=7225. Or 35x35 is computed by taking 3x4=12 (which is 3 times (3+1)) and taking it onto 25, so 35x35=1225. It's a fun little trick.

Here's a challenge for Caleb. Take any whole number, like 12, and figure out all the numbers that divide 12, except 12 itself. So the numbers that divide 12 are 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 12 (but don't include 12). Now add all those numbers up (except 12) to get 1+2+3+4+6=16. Now 16 is bigger than 12. Let's do the same thing with 10. The numbers that divide 10 excluding 10 itself are 1, 2, and 5. Now add those numbers up. 1+2+5=7 and 7 is less than 10. Here's the question for Caleb. How many numbers (if ANY) can he find that have the property that when you add up all their divisors (except the number itself) you actually get the number back? With 12, we added up the divisors and got a bigger number than 12. With 10, we added up the divisors and got a smaller number than 10. Is there any number where once you add up all the divisors (except itself) you get EXACTLY the number back?

oops!

Okay I am printing that out, Bobby, because it's going to take a while for me to understand it. That seems really cool though..If I can somehow figure out what you're doing with the multiplying numbers with 5 trick, that would be really great.
I know Caleb would love to try it as well. I'll let you know what he thinks about the post. ;)

Hey..lol Caleb told me to tell you that you got something wrong there. He said 1 + 2 + 5 is not 7, it is 8. ;-)

He's trying to find the answer to your question right now :)

John McD: 2:03: One of the main revelations of Jesus was/is God's name. Because His name is Abba (translation: Dad), we are God's children. This might not count very much to you right now, but this is very wondrous to we who find that life is not easy ... courage is a big item for me. Is it for you?

It's hard to add anything to what you have said. Amen!

For some, the idea that God is our Father in Heaven, is second nature. For others, it's not. I often wonder if those who do not believe in God were more apt to have had a poor or non-existent relationship with their father of childhood. Just a thought.

I found this saying inside a fortune cookie many, many years ago, and it's the only one that's ever stuck with me. "Faith is courage that has said its prayers."

"Hey..lol Caleb told me to tell you that you got something wrong there. He said 1 + 2 + 5 is not 7, it is 8. ;-)"

Haha, I sure did! Ah well done, young Jedi, well done.

Let me know if you have questions about that multiplication trick. It's hard to articulate how to do it in words.

Bobby, I've heard it said that the universe is built upon the foundation of mathematics, that what intrinsic laws we find lie therein.

Perhaps the personification of that is "God"?

I believe so, Doug. It was Einstein who said that "Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe." I think that was quite perceptive.

I think mathematics and the fact that the cosmos are ordered with equations that are simple to understand, yet describe such complexities, is good evidence for a personal intelligence.

Bobby, I feel so dumb LOL

Here is what I did. I read the page, over and over, and while I was trying to figure it out...in the meantime, Caleb was reading your instructions and then he figured it out. (At least I think he did! Let me know. hehe)

He said the answer is 1. Is he right?

John, there's nothing that says that a person has to have kids to be "grown up." Are you just feeling grouchy today?

Jesus is experienced

So Jimi Hendrix doesn't need to be worried about that, there.
......

You building on your beliefs is just fine, but nothing comes from that which necessarily applies to people that don't share the same beliefs. If you speak of "boxes" then the box which contains you and your unprovable beliefs is smaller than that which contains us all, and that which is true for all of us.

I allow for miracles and things which we don't understand, fully or partly. And having babies is fine, if that's what one wants to do.

Oops, he was wrong. He forgot that it is "except itself"

"Oops, he was wrong. He forgot that it is "except itself""

Right. That makes all the difference...

Just curious- Is the number above or below 100? Or is there more than 1 number that does this?

Just some questions Caleb wanted to know. He also wanted me to ask you what the number was (lol) but I told him that would be cheating. :P

Hehe. Well, I'll let you know that there are two numbers like this below 100...

One is 6?

Oh yeah! Well done, Janet.

Bobby, 28!

Oh hey, good job Janet!!!

This really helped Caleb save time:
http://www.solvemymath.com/online_math_calculator/general_math/divisors_calculator/index.php

(although he both entered every number under 100 before figuring it out. lol)

http://www.chaospro.de/bifurcation.php

Free fractal generator program. Sweet.

The Mandelbrot Set is mighty beautiful.

Oh Bobby are we doing perfect numbers? lol

I had to make a program to do that for me in Programming in Java a couple of months ago. It took awhile, lol. Had to enter between what two numbers the user wanted to search and search from that number up through the high number the user entered, and have them be printed as the program found them. Woo for loops, but it took awhile to understand how to get the program to find the numbers and test each individual one.

Great! You guys got it! Atta boy, Caleb.

OK Bethany, now that Caleb has figured that out, I can tell you a little bit about this problem. A number like 6 or 28 that has this property that Caleb and Janet were looking for is called a "perfect number." You can google that and find all kinds of info on them if you wish. So you found 6 and 28. The next question is; are there more? How many more? Well, the next perfect number is 496. Then 8128. Then 33550336. And they just get much, much bigger from there. So how many are there? Well, no one knows! In fact, this question has been around since BEFORE the time of Jesus! So, one could say that people have been trying to figure out how many perfect numbers there are for over 2000 years.

Now, if Caleb or anyone could argue that there are infinitely many perfect numbers or come up with an argument as to why there are only finitely many, then Harvard, MIT, Yale, Princeton, any school of his choosing would grant him a PhD in mathematics immediately and he would probably be offered full professorship at a university. That's how big an important mathematicians think this problem is. So this problem has stumped the greatest minds the world has ever know, yet it is so simple to state, that even an 8 year old can begin to understand and work on it. It's almost paradoxical. So anyway, it may be fun for him to think about this problem; to think about why it's so hard, or what would an argument showing that there are finitely many perfect numbers be like? Man, there are so many fun problems like this out there... Ones that are easier, like, with actual solutions that people can understand, but I think this one might blow his mind in a good way.

Doug, Do you know how to do that on Photoshop?

Fractals are so pretty...I wish I understood what they meant...

Bethany, that divisor calculator is great.

Prime numbers are cool too.

Oh yeah, the Mandelbrot set, indeed. I bet Caleb would like fractals. They're fun too, although I know very little about them.

And Dan, well done. That's pretty cool that you write a program to find perfect numbers in only high school! I bet it was hard. Those kinds of programs can be very, very helpful. You'll do great at college.

Janet, I've never used Photoshop. Does it have the capability to make fractals??

That is very, very interesting, Bobby!

"Prime numbers are cool too."

Oh don't get me started there, Doug!

Oops, this was supposed to be for Prime Numbers:

Ehehehehehehehehehehehe...

So I told my mom about the lip ring...

On a scale of 1-10 (1 being mildly annoyed to 10 being "I'm going to freakin' kill you" pissed off) she's about a 9.

I'm sure my dad will be an 11.

Good grief...

Rae, ha!

Yikes... you don't live at home though, so they can't kill you right away, ehh?

Bobby, the math piece of it wasn't that difficult, it was simply using the mod function. It was a matter of testing each one. The program can take forever to run I think, and we could only test up to something like 10,000 before the program crashes from overloaded variables.

I love our little community of Jill Stanek blog friends!

It looks like you can get fractal brushes for photoshop here:
http://getbrushes.com/brushes/photoshop/fractals/

yeesh, I'm sorry Alison. Could always gently remind them how good you are in comparison to other kids and remind them you're an adult now...though that last part could backfire pretty badly, lol

" we could only test up to something like 10,000 before the program crashes from overloaded variables."

Oh man, that's no good! Euler was able to find all the perfect numbers up to like, 10,000,000 without a calculator much less a computer, LOL.

Bobby-

Yeah, well he told us the nice exponential formulas afterword, but the computer can only store so much information in one spot, a calculator could probably hold more in a variable than the computer running a java program using what essentially amounts to DOS lol

Oh! Bethany, before I forget, thanks for adding my pic :)

Oh! Bethany, before I forget, thanks for adding my pic :)

"Yikes... you don't live at home though, so they can't kill you right away, ehh?"

I'm sure they're asking if a really-really late term abortion would still fly... >_

My mom literally hung up the phone on me and I'm sure she's now calling my dad, and I'm sure I'm going to get a very angry call from my vati this evening.

@Dan: I really don't think that's going to matter, lol.

Darn it, now I feel really bad about pissing my parents off so badly...I should just take it out...but I spent money on it...argh.

Oh! Bethany, before I forget, thanks for adding my pic :)

ugh, something like a triple or quadruple post. Curse my internet connection >

"well he told us the nice exponential formulas afterword"

Do you mean even perfect numbers in terms of Mersenne Primes? That only gets you so far since even perfect numbers and Mersenne primes are in 1-1 correspondence, although it certainly would get you further than 10000...

Bobby-

I think so, he mentioned some sort of restriction, but it was basically an afterthought just to show ho w we had to use a more difficult method that would get the same results, lol

Bobby, our buddy Euler also worked on Fermat's Last Theorem, proving it for n = 3.







"The most famous solved problem in the history of mathematics."


A low bow to Andrew Wiles, who proved that all rational semistable elliptic curves are modular, which, when applied to Fermat's problem, implied that it was true.

Cool, huh, Rae? ; )

Bethany,
Thanks for the info on fractal brushes. I love brushes. it's really fun to make your own!

Doug,
Yes, You can do fractals on Photoshop using paths. I use Photoshop Elements which is less expensive and doesn't have all the features of the high end Photoshop. You can google photoshop art and find fractal art online. It's very cool.

Rae, I don't want to sound like your Mom (and you do what you want), but I cringewhenever I see a body piercing on someone's face. To me it's a form of self-mutilation, and ugly, unsanitary, etc.. I'd rather see someone get a tattoo than a piercing, although I think those are kind of ugly too. I totally understand how your mom must feel. Maybe my opinion will help you decide if you want to keep it or not.....

Dan, when I was in college you had to write your program in FORTRAN and use the IBM keypunch machine to store it, as well as input all the data on the cards, then turn the whole "deck" over to the people in the computer center who would run it on the mainframe, a big "Univac" type thing that occupied an entire room.

Nifty keyboard, eh?

Rae, By the way, You are very cute without it!

@Janet: :)

I just called my dad, and he was at a "2". Sure, he's miffed...but it's mostly because he's concerned about future employment, and that was assuaged once I told him about clear bits I can use for interviews and for work.

So he's not that pissed, thankfully. Annoyed...but not pissed. He just said, "no more facial piercings! I liked your nose one...the lip one, I probably won't like but...yeah...no more". And I won't...ears only!

(By the way, I already have some tattoos. :D)

Doug, When I registered for classes in college, we went to different tables to pick up computer punch cards for the classes we wanted to get into. Needless to say, that made it very easy to get into the ones we wanted! How times have changed!

Rae,
He liked the nose one? Then what's to worry? Glad things are OK. (I still don't like them..sorry!)

http://www.obamatruth.org/

Janet, why don't you consider ear piercings mutilation?

Rae, when I came home for Christmas with my lip pierced, my parents rolled their eyes and were like, "Ugh, where's the tattoo?"

I think they were surprised when I showed them I had gotten tattooed too! Haha.

What tattoos do you have?

"I think they were surprised when I showed them I had gotten tattooed too! Haha."

Mwahaha...

And in response to liberal media charges:

1. A trained journalist can be liberal and report the news accurately, fairly, and without bias. It's our JOB to get both/all sides of a story. So we do. It's not hard, honestly.

2. I've provided proof the media is not liberal (several studies done on the press) and if you scroll up and click on any of the links I provided you can see those studies and they even provide the methodology used.

So yes, journalists are for the most part, liberal minded, but their reporting is actually quite fair.

Basically, what you're trying to argue is that a jazz pianist can't play classical music. Well, if they've been trained to play classical music, that's what they'll play, even if their heart is into jazz.

@Edyt: I have a strand of DNA around my ankle that I got for my 18th birthday and a henna-style flower on my lower back that's really colorful. :D

My parents think the back one is a bit too big, but otherwise they think it's pretty. And they *love* the DNA one on my ankle, they think it's hilarious.

@Janet: That's okay, you don't have to like them. Besides, I probably won't wear the lip ring for very long anyway...in fact, I'm really starting to question my judgment now...

As for the nosering, I only wear studs in it, not massive rings, so it's just a teeny little jewel on the side of my nose.

Basically, what you're trying to argue is that a jazz pianist can't play classical music. Well, if they've been trained to play classical music, that's what they'll play, even if their heart is into jazz.

Not the same thing. If a person is trained to play classical music, this doesn't imply that the person hates jazz or is morally opposed to it.

That makes a HUGE difference in the way things will be reported, no matter how fair and unbiased you think things are being reported by them. They simply aren't.

I thought liberals had no morals! Haha, don't hurt your argument... you're making it sound like conservatives can't be fair journalists, but liberals can.

Look, reporting doesn't have as many moral choices as you'd think. I wrote about parental notification once, and you know what? I presented both sides of the argument. I'm pro-choice, but I didn't skew my words to reflect that. That's partially why stories seem to use such simple wording. It's because we understand that words have weight, so we take the most basic words (for example, using "said" rather than an expressive word like "protested" or "argued" that has more weight behind it) and insert them.

I don't know what else you expect of a reporter. If there's news, we'll cover it. If the government is doing something wrong, we're not being unpatriotic by writing about it. We're just telling the news.

I'm not going to argue that sometimes a reporter doesn't mess up, but it's a huge exaggeration to say they only present one side or that stories are inherently biased because the writer has a certain viewpoint.

P.S. I'm finished responding until you read the links I provided above, particularly the study by FAIR.

And if you're too lazy to read it, the dumbed down summary is here.

Edyt: 6:40: Janet, why don't you consider ear piercings mutilation?

I commented earlier on the nose and lip ones - those to me are ugly and unsanitary because you've got the saliva, food, etc.. right next to the earring hole. Gross!

The ear piercing is only on a small insignificant area of cartilage on the edge of the ear. Not gross!

Edyt,

you don't have a clue.

The MSM is corrupt, a disgrace. Most of the journalism students are hardcore agnostic liberals with an agenda.

Janet,

But that doesn't make it mutilation. You can think something is gross without thinking that person is horribly damaging and self-harming to the body. What you've just illustrated is a cultural acceptance of a certain kind of piercing and rejection of another, while neither is more or less harmful.

And saliva is terribly good for piercings, since it contains anti-bacterial agents. (That's why it's good for your teeth too.) As long as the piercing is cleaned regularly while it's healing, it'll be fine. I never had an infection in my lip piercing, but my ears would (and still do) every once in awhile flare up. If anything, I wish lip piercings were the cultural norm, since they're easier to take care of. :( Ah well.

I took out my lip piercing...it was uncomfortable, and my parents were sooooo upset...and I felt super guilty. :-/

Ah well, I'll just pierce my ears from now on...

It's so odd, because my dad likes my nose ring, but he was *pissed* about the lip one. Go fig. They also like my tattoos (though they prefer that I don't get more).

Edyt:
You're right, cultural acceptance has a lot to do with why I don't care for the nose and lip ones, but the nose ones are pretty disgusting, you have to admit...it seems like you could be more prone to contracting viruses or bacterial infections with a hole on the side of your nose, ya know? Do you still have the lip piercing? Doesn't the little ring, or stone "get in the way" of eating, etc..?

Rae:
I'm glad to hear you took out the lip piercing, you don't have to be a slave to fashion! Lol!

Janet,

No I don't have the lip piercing anymore, and it never got in the way of eating, unless I was eating an ice cream cone, then it would create little ball-shaped trails. I don't really consider that a problem, I guess. The only thing it really affected was... kissing... which, well... I have no regrets! :D

And I'm not sure about nose piercings. I'll have to look it up. Have you noticed they're getting much more accepted lately? I think a lot of employers are actually cool with it! But I deal with a lot of different people on a day-to-day basis, so I wouldn't get one out of not wanting to offend one of the people I interview.

So Jimi Hendrix doesn't need to be worried about that, there."

YESSSSS

Yeah my mom still doesnt' know about my tattoo which is kinda nice because I need to get it retouched and then she can find out in 2 weeks.

I thought liberals had no morals!

Sure they do. They're just skewed and totally opposed to conservative morals.

Haha, don't hurt your argument... you're making it sound like conservatives can't be fair journalists, but liberals can.

Liberals can't. I never implied they could.

Look, reporting doesn't have as many moral choices as you'd think. I wrote about parental notification once, and you know what? I presented both sides of the argument.

And this proves what?

I'm pro-choice, but I didn't skew my words to reflect that. That's partially why stories seem to use such simple wording. It's because we understand that words have weight, so we take the most basic words (for example, using "said" rather than an expressive word like "protested" or "argued" that has more weight behind it) and insert them.

Oh and I'm sure I can imagine what kind of an objective piece you could find to write about Crisis Pregnancy Centers. @@ lol I have yet to see a liberal cover that accurately.
Sure, you can pick and choose topics you don't feel so strongly about one way or the other, or that you can find a compromising view with the other side on, and make it sound objective. Anyone can do that. No big skill required there.

I don't know what else you expect of a reporter. If there's news, we'll cover it. If the government is doing something wrong, we're not being unpatriotic by writing about it. We're just telling the news.

Sure, Edyt.

I'm not going to argue that sometimes a reporter doesn't mess up,

Oh sheesh.

but it's a huge exaggeration to say they only present one side or that stories are inherently biased because the writer has a certain viewpoint.

No, no exaggeration at all. Just turning on the TV is enough proof for me. Of course, being a liberal, you'll see it as "fair and balanced" cause you're seeing it through a biased lens.

And if you're too lazy to read it, the dumbed down summary is here.

Careful- your liberal bias is showing.

@PiP,

just realized that whatI said about Jesus being 'experienced' can be understood in two ways ... the word experienced is somewhat like the word 'grass' ... it can refer to the green plants that make-up a lawn OR it can refer to marijuana. When referring to a being there is a 'knowing' of any being before any categorization occurs. Just as Doug knows his wife - he 'knows' her via experiencing her. This kind of thing is considered non-provable, so doesn't mean too much.

Tell me in tactile language (ie. prove) friendship exists. We know such exists because we experience the presence of another. In similar fashion Jesus is experienced .... rather than 'proven' (MK's notion of saying 'hello').

A child is absolutely indispensable because all of his/her learning is via the 'experience' route. They provide instantaneous challenges to adults who live in a Cartesian box. This box is a quasi-filter to only allow inside what they want ... kinda like transcendental meditation in action.

The allusion to Jimmi Hendrix is interesting, but using Picasso makes a more suitable example. Was the person Picasso captured/expressed in his paintings. Were his paintings only a small part of who Picasso was? Was the being Picasso ever less precious than all his paintings? We kill non-sentient humans because they are in-our-way to happiness (ie. unwanted). Is it not our job to change peoples desires from unwanted to wanted/cherished?

All this also applies to Jesus. He/as do children expand our freedom by forcing us (yes, we must be forced into freedom) to experience-life all of life and not the small part that we control via our Cartesian filter.

Just as Doug knows his wife - he 'knows' her via experiencing her. This kind of thing is considered non-provable, so doesn't mean too much.

John, I wouldn't say that it doesn't mean too much (because it can mean quite a lot), nor that it's not provable. Agreed that there are types of knowing that don't involve hearing the spoken word, or reading them written, etc. I'd call it a "sense" of a person that builds up over time, maybe a very little bit of time or a long stretch, and the perceiver may not have the impression of "I am being communicated with" then.
......

Was the person Picasso captured/expressed in his paintings?

I imagine that Picasso felt so, to varying degrees.
......

Were his paintings only a small part of who Picasso was?

IMO, no. Just how big a part is a good question.
......

Was the being Picasso ever less precious than all his paintings?

Depends on the observer.
......

We kill non-sentient humans because they are in-our-way to happiness (ie. unwanted). Is it not our job to change peoples desires from unwanted to wanted/cherished?

Some people feel it is.
......

(yes, we must be forced into freedom)

There, I disagree. Your beliefs are fine for you, but in no way are they necessary for many other people nor need they be forced, especially by law or public policy. It's not necessary that everybody has kids, and for many people having offspring is not "indispensable" at all.

John:8:41:

Awesome post! I hope you are saving these! This one's a "keeper"!

...All this also applies to Jesus. He/as do children expand our freedom by forcing us (yes, we must be forced into freedom) to experience-life all of life and not the small part that we control via our Cartesian filter.

How true. It takes courage for us to leave the comfort of our little "nest" and follow Jesus. It can be scary, but well worth it to those who do.

Dissent is patriotic. Dissent lets the government know how the people feel on an issue. Dissent drives people to actions on BOTH sides. Dissent causes the rights we are given to be used in a (hopefully) constructive way.

Dissent is patriotic.

The End :)

Dan, I'm not sure who you were replying to, but I agree with your post. :-)

Happy birthday, Dan!

@Dan,

you and my Dad would not see eye-to-eye. Dissent he would understand as criticism. If you idea was not constructive (better way to do things). then it's best to shut-up!

Most change is just that change and of no consequence because change is either constructive or destructive, or in Hegelian philosophy ... we seek destruction, because like the Pheonix constructive reality rises from the ashes ... this is Obama's promise.

I kinda feel we'll be stuck holding a handful of ashes + Obama's promises/foolishness.

Bethany, thank you :)

Well, dissent or criticism doesnt necessarily need to be a better way to do things in terms of enacting change (not that anyone would ever fully agree on what is/isn't better) by simple manner of saying what isnt working and hopefully reasons why, can lead to new and possibly better ideas as to how to do things

Bobby Bambino, don't tell me you've abandoned this thread!

We also didn't mention something a fellow paisan of yours - Leonardo of Pisa - was into: Fibonacci Numbers.

Just saw a great example of Fibonacci in the real virtual world - the poll about putting advertisements on cars in church parking lots.

No doubt you recognize the 61.8% - the "golden section" or "golden mean" where the relation of that portion to the whole (100%) is the same as the relation of what is left (38.2%) to the 61.8%.

61.8% x 61.8% = 38.2%

38.2% x 61.8% = 23.6%, another Fibonacci ratio.

23.6% x 61.8% = 14.6%, which also appears in the poll results.

Just as the square root of .382 is .618, so is .146 the square root of .382 (SWEEET)

The square root of .618 is .786, yet another Fibonacci ratio.

.786 x the 14.6% is 11.5%, which also appears in the poll results. (YEAH BABY)

I kinda feel we'll be stuck holding a handful of ashes + Obama's promises/foolishness.

John, whattayou mean "we," O man of the North? ; )

Obama is no more foolish than the other candidates. In the end, though, I do think we'll be left holding the bag. That's because we are already holding it.

My prediction - the economy and people's standard of living, along with side issues like immigration, will increasingly push abortion even more to the side as a concern. There is no "going back" in this regard, the die is cast as far as most people in the US are concerned, IMO.

There is also no great and wonderful "starting over," without much more downside to go, and if there's a place where I disagree with Obama it's that he at the least isn't politically aware of the trends in place, and/or their persistence and importance.

Doug, holy cow, you really know a lot of cool math! I'm impressed. I can't believe you caught all that on the weekly poll. Well done. So the neat thing about Fibonacci numbers

1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,...

is that each time you divide one by the previous, you get a better and better approximation of the golden ratio, which is (1+sqrt(5))/2. The higher you go in the sequence, the closer you get to it. I bet little Caleb would enjoy some of these properties. Plenty of time for him... 8 years old... I didn't even know what math was till I was 19.

hey Doug,

I did say 'we' didn't I? Well if America sneezes, we (Canucks') catch the cold. Election-time in the US means a lot of American-sneezing!

on-a-personal-note: a person in a Cartesian box is a pessimist (a self-assessing-realist) by nature ::: the Christian is an optimist a good-humoured-positivist who lives in the Resurrection ... with God on our side 'we WIN'.

The golden ratio is one of the most amazing things to me, and one thing I consider to be proof of an intelligent designer.

Doug, how in the world did you even think of all of that? That is amazing!

"The golden ratio is one of the most amazing things to me, and one thing I consider to be proof of an intelligent designer."

I agree, Bethany. Sometimes atheists use an argument like "We used to think such-and-such a phenomenon in nature was attributed to God. But now we know why this phenomenon occurs, and so there is no need of God." I completely disagree with that conclusion (I didn't give a great atheist argument, but it's along those lines) I like to use math as an example. I can explain the golden ratio or Euler's equation very well, i think. I know where they come from, how it's derived, why it all works, etc. Just like a scientist can tell you all about why certain phenomenon in nature occurs, I can tell you why Euler's equation is true. Yet it is in the EXPLANATION, the simplicity and beauty of why it is true that points me to an intelligent being. So while some may say that since we know how and why lighting is as it is is a proof to show there is no designer, I would say it is quite the contrary. The beauty and elegance points us to a designer.

So the neat thing about Fibonacci numbers

1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,...

is that each time you divide one by the previous, you get a better and better approximation of the golden ratio, which is (1+sqrt(5))/2. The higher you go in the sequence, the closer you get to it. I bet little Caleb would enjoy some of these properties.

Bobby, did you know that it works the same way, starting with any two numbers? Just as we add 1 + 1 = 2, then 2 + 1 = 3, etc.

Take 2 and 43,890.

Add them together and you get 43892.

+ 43,890 = 87,782.

+ 43,892 = 131,674

+ 87,782 = 219,456

+ 131,674 = 351,130

+ 219,456 = 570586

At that point we're already to a .61538 ratio close to the .61803...

I did say 'we' didn't I? Well if America sneezes, we (Canucks') catch the cold. Election-time in the US means a lot of American-sneezing!

John, I was mostly kidding, and yes - no doubt on the American influence in Canada. But you did say, I kinda feel we'll be stuck holding a handful of ashes + Obama's promises/foolishness. So there.
.....

on-a-personal-note: a person in a Cartesian box is a pessimist (a self-assessing-realist) by nature ::: the Christian is an optimist a good-humoured-positivist who lives in the Resurrection ... with God on our side 'we WIN'.

I realize there are those, you among them, who think that way. Yet not everybody has the need to.

Between you and me, I think you're the pessimist - lamenting the state of things. I don't feel the world is "bad" because of or in addition to legal abortion. I don't need an "after life," etc.

Doug, how in the world did you even think of all of that? That is amazing!

Oh Bethany - no, what is amazing is your artistic talent. Your drawings are so good with detail and shading that they are "picture-like."

I'm just used to the Fibonacci ratios from using them on financial charts. If a market moves X amount in one direction, it will then often retrace by a Fibonacci ratio - .786, .618, 382, .236, .146

They're as familiar to me as letters of the alphabet. On the poll was a "61.8" and a "14.6" so no big trick.

Aside from philosophical and metaphysical arguments, I do think the Golden Ratio is awesome.

The pattern in a snail's shell, the spiral arms of a galaxy, swirl coffee in a cup then pour in a little cream, too cool.....

Doug,

I found a few web sites related to the Golden ratio. Pretty interesting, even from a non-mathematician's perspective!

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/GoldenRatio.html

http://www.thegoldenmean.com/why.html