Well this is very interesting and makes total sense.
From what I'm reading the psuedo-feminists are either dismissing the following study (Amie Newman at RH Reality Check: "So, if you're a lap dancer you shouldn't take the pill and women who don't take the pill are attracted to dominating men? Can we put some parameters on what actually gets researched in this country? Please?") or not liking it (Feminist Philosophers: "I just fear that this will be picked up by some groups as another excuse to fulminate against oral contraception, because 'oohz noz! they are messing up the human race!'")
Also don't forget estrogen from the Pill is water has been found by several studies to feminize male fish. So women on the Pill may be getting what they're helping create, wimps.
From the Daily Mail, today:
It ushered in the 1960s sexual revolution and gave women control over their own fertility.
But the Pill may also have changed women's taste in men, according to a study.
Scientists say the hormones in the oral contraceptive suppress a woman's interest in masculine men and make boyish men more attractive. Although the change occurs for just a few days each month, it may have been highly influential since use of the Pill began more than 40 years ago.
If the theory is right, it could partly explain the shifting in tastes from macho 1950s and 1960s stars such as Kirk Douglas and Sean Connery to the more wimpy, androgynous stars of today, such as Johnny Depp and Russell Brand....
Dr Alexandra Alvergne, of the University of Sheffield, says the Pill could also be altering the way women pick their mates and could have long-term implications for society.
'There are many obvious benefits of the Pill for women, but there is also the possibility that the Pill has psychological side-effects that we are only just discovering,' she said. 'We need further studies to find out what these are.'
The links between the Pill and sexual preferences are highlighted in a paper in the journal Trends in Ecology and Evolution.
Scientists have long known that a woman's taste in men changes over her menstrual cycle.
During the few days each month when women are fertile - around the time of ovulation - they tend to prefer masculine features and men who are more assertive.
On these fertile days, women are also more attracted to men who are 'genetically dissimilar', Dr Alvergne said. Picking a partner whose genetic make-up is unlike their own increases the chances of having a healthy child.
On days when women are not fertile, their tastes swing towards more feminine, boyish faces and more caring personalities, researchers have shown.
However, if women are taking the Pill they no longer have fertile days.
That means they no longer experience the hormonal changes that make them more attracted to masculine men and those with dissimilar genetic make-up.
Although the effect is subtle, Dr Alvergne said it could alter women's view of male attractiveness. 'It is a possibility - but there is no evidence of this yet,' she said. 'We need a lot more research in this area.' In her paper, Dr Alvergne reviewed 7 studies showing how the Pill can change women's behaviour.
She also found evidence from 3 studies that the Pill can affect the way women are looked at by men.
Past studies have shown that men find women more attractive around the time of ovulation, possibly because women have evolved instinctive ways, by their natural scent or their behaviour, of alerting men that they are fertile. One study showed that lap dancers get bigger tips at the time of the month when they are most fertile.
Dr Alvergne said the use of the Pill could influence a woman's ability to attract a mate by reducing her attractiveness to men.
Her co-author at Sheffield, Dr Virpi Lumma, said: 'The ultimate outstanding evolutionary question concerns whether the use of oral contraceptives when making mating decisions can have long-term consequences on the ability of couples to reproduce.' An increasing number of studies suggest that the Pill is likely to have an impact on human mating decisions and subsequent reproduction.
'If this is the case, Pill use will have implications for both current and future generations, and we hope that our review will stimulate further research on this question,' said Dr Lumma.
The changing fashions for film stars appear to show a shift from masculine men in the 1950s - before the advent of the Pill - to more baby-faced stars today.
Many of the biggest box office draws are boyish in appearance, rather than classically rugged. The top Hollywood earners of last year include Will Smith, Johnny Depp, Leonardo DiCaprio and Hugh Jackman. Other boyish film stars include Jude Law.
The rise of such stars could also be explained by cynical attempts to market films and merchandise at an ever younger age group.
[HT: moderator Jasper and proofreader Laura Loo]
Not quite, T. All those contracepting women aren't actually having enough children to replace their beta male partner.
I'm so confused...
:OPosted by: Vannah at October 8, 2009 12:23 PM
On what planet is Hugh Jackman boyish?Posted by: AuntieMatter at October 8, 2009 12:27 PM
I would NEVER take the pill (its pure poison and messes with a natural part of life) and I can't stand Johnny Depp. I used to like Orlando Bloom but even he isn't that great anymore. And who is Russell Brand?
Posted by: LizFromNebraska
at October 8, 2009 12:45 PM
And its not nice to say people like Hisman will be extinct. :| Are you going to say the same about Bobby or Jasper?
Im not sure you really understand the idea of "fewer offspring."
If the women who tend not to breed choose beta males as companions, than there will be a shift in the ratio of masculine men to offspring, meaning that there will be in fact a larger number of masculine men in the future.Posted by: Oliver at October 8, 2009 12:52 PM
This strikes me as another case of "Pill Goggles."Posted by: Cranky Catholic at October 8, 2009 1:08 PM
And this means...what? Exactly? Either women not on the pill want masculine men at their fertile times and get pregnant, and women on the pill aren't fertile so they don't get pregnant from the boyish men...Either way, masculine men are causing the pregnancies. So what's the problem? Even if the pill never existed, masculine men would apparently still be causing the pregnancies.
I want to know what the problem is, really. What's wrong with preferring less dominating men, Jill? I'm really just...not seeing the issue here. The issue is that it changes sexual chemistry in general, but the effect discussed seems not to be that important at all. It's important if a woman on the pill has an physical, chemical change outside of infertility, of course...but to demonize the pill for this particular proposed effect that is far more trivial than a REAL health concern is ridiculous.
Posted by: Lyssie
at October 8, 2009 1:09 PM
And talking about the feminization of male fish...again, women taking the pill are NOT the problem, the systems not removing hormones and OTHER FAR MORE DANGEROUS DRUGS (antibiotics, anyone?)from our water system ARE THE PROBLEM. Demonizing the pill yet again doesn't address the real problem of how they are getting into the public water supply, honestly. Clean waste water better, period. You're just grasping at straws to make the pill seem that much more evil.
"Maybe you don't understand that women on the pill DO breed. They just choose when and how many. They just don't have to give up sex half each month or have a tribe of kids!"
Posted by: ttt at October 8, 2009 1:03 PM
If it were that simple, we wouldn't have so many women turning to fertility treatments.
Very interesting video!
Zack Efron is so fruity. BlechPosted by: Pansy Moss at October 8, 2009 1:18 PM
Thank goodness that mating is not just about hormones! I'm not really attracted to babyfaced men. Ughhh, it is like your dating a 13 year old boy! Even if I thought a guy was good looking doesn't mean I've got to jump in bed with him. He has to have some character with the good looks before I even give him a chance. Thank God he gave us a brain to control our hormones. lol I think Sean Connery is hot! And I'm only 28. So much for the pill theroy.Posted by: Jennifer at October 8, 2009 1:18 PM
So, let's see. The birth control pill:
Is an abortifacient.
Introduces carcinogenic estrogen to a woman's body, which increases the risk of breast cancer.
Inhibits the natural ability of a woman to select a genetically compatible mate.
Our whole society has pill goggles!Posted by: Tommy D at October 8, 2009 1:32 PM
On what planet is Hugh Jackman boyish?
Posted by: AuntieMatter at October 8, 2009 12:27 PM
LoL. That's exactly what I thought. Uh, Wolverine anyone?Posted by: Keith at October 8, 2009 1:53 PM
There are lots of studies about women's preferences and hormones. Here's my favorite:
"A study conducted by UCLA's Department of Psychiatry has revealed that the kind of face a woman finds attractive on a man can differ depending on where she is in her menstrual cycle. For example: If she is ovulating, she is attracted to men with rugged and masculine features. However, if she is menstruating, or menopausal, she tends to prefer a man with scissors lodged in his temple and a bat jammed up his butt while he is on fire."Posted by: Jacque at October 8, 2009 2:02 PM
Janet makes a VERY GOOD point.Posted by: LizFromNebraska at October 8, 2009 2:08 PM
I can't stand 'pretty boys' no matter WHERE I am in my cycle. My husband is a big, rugged, hairy HE-MAN, thank you LOL!! Yes, I agree about Sean Connery and Hugh Jackman...THOSE are MEN. I have never been on the pill, and don't ever plan to be, either. :)Posted by: Pamela at October 8, 2009 2:24 PM
LOL, Jaque. :)Posted by: Pamela at October 8, 2009 2:26 PM
Jacque, I don't know about the scissors or the bat part but I think Oprah (who I think has done more than probably anyone else in MSM to promote immorality and "shacking up") had a show discussing the research about increased attraction of men to women who are ovulating relating changes in facial features, scent, etc. vs. when that same women is not ovulating. I think everyone adults, parents and teens alike should be made aware that both women and men are more likely to be attracted to each other and to be sexually active during the woman's most fertile period. That is why I personally know of people who got pregnant during an one-time sexual encounter, when they did not intend it and afterward they wondered "how could this happen, I only had sex one-time"?
Jill, I think you are right on with this article informing people that "the pill" changes the entire body chemistry and can lead women to pick a man based on faulty body chemistry. I don't think it is "demonizing the pill" when you tell the truth, it IS causing unusual, abnormal body changes. Women were meant to ovulate, no matter how "smart" we think we are when we don't. If a woman needs to take them for serious health reasons then she shouldn't get her nose out of joint when the truth is told about them, just realize that she is making the best choice she can based on her circumstances.
Jacque, do you have a link or a name of a book where the UCLA's Dept of Psychiatry's research is published? I would like to read it.Posted by: Prolifer L at October 8, 2009 2:50 PM
On what planet is Hugh Jackman boyish?
Posted by: AuntieMatter at October 8, 2009 12:27 PM
I had that same thought! No way is "gratuitous shirtless scene man" in any way "boyish!" :D lolPosted by: Kel at October 8, 2009 3:43 PM
What I find especially concerning about this is that women go off of the pill to get pregnant, and the trend in our society is becoming to get sterilized once you're done having kids. So you stop pumping those hormones into your body that increased your attraction to your partner in the first place. More so if the man gets sterilized and the woman continues to ovulate.
Suddenly, you find yourself less physically attracted to your husband.
Just seems like a terrible set-up. A good way to get divorced, I guess.
Blech. We're a pill-obsessed society. Everything that's an inconvenience needs "fixed" but don't worry, because there's a pill for that!
People need to chill out and stop taking pills for all that ails them. I get the usage of medication for actual ailments, but it's just becoming so commonplace to take a pill if something bothers you at all...
Some days, I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone, lol.Posted by: MaryRose at October 8, 2009 3:59 PM
"Yes, I agree about Sean Connery and Hugh Jackman...THOSE are MEN."
Yes I agree. Who would want a responsible, respectful, intelligent, caring, witty, charming, funny, ambitious and confident person when you can just have muscles, muscles MUSCLES! You sure know how to pick 'em, Pamela!
I'm sure you also think "real women" have to have 22in waists and double D's.
I can't believe how shallow so many of you are. Do you think Jesus would love a person any less if they are skinny? Do you think if a man is skinny he won't be a good father?Posted by: A Woman at October 8, 2009 4:13 PM
Fallout from the Pill is always interesting to me. Almost as interesting as why women don't question using artificial hormones for non-medical reasons.
Setting aside hormone manipulation for medical use, why do women gobble these pills without questioning the process?
Are we so scared to get pregnant that we submit to risks without even blinking? Why is it always women that undergo this? Seems like mainstream feminism hasn't gone far enough to 'set us free'. Many ideas just have us denying our fertility, one aspect of our own womanhood.
I'm not buying it.
Setting aside hormone manipulation for medical use, why do women gobble these pills without questioning the process?
Are we so scared to get pregnant that we submit to risks without even blinking?
Posted by: Mary Ann at October 8, 2009 5:09 PM
Speaking for myself, I was 20 when I went on the Pill, because I was getting married in about a month and we were in college. I was a virgin and had never even given any thought to birth control.
I went on the Pill without researching it, and figured it was safe because it was so common and my dr. prescribed it and my mother suggested it, and I had friends who were on it.
Two years later, after speaking to some Catholic friends, I did my homework and couldn't in good conscience continue to use the Pill because of how it altered my body's processes. To me, taking a pill that suppresses my natural monthly cycle is just not something I ever want to do again.
As for this argument that the Pill has altered our desire for certain types of men, I don't know if I buy it. I was lovin' those poofy-haired 80s boy bands long before I ever took the Pill. :DPosted by: Kel at October 8, 2009 5:25 PM
I think the subtle effects of the Pill reducing women's attractiveness are probably more than offset by the Pill-embracing woman's clear willingness to put out, which seems to be the number one factor in attracting a man.Posted by: Christina at October 8, 2009 5:42 PM
Studies show women taking oral contraceptives gain less muscle from exercise than women who don't use them.
The injectable Depo Provera causes osteoporosis. That is listed on the product.
The study of women taking hormone replacement therapy had to be stopped due to a disproportionate number of those taking hormones dying and getting cancer and heart attacks. That was in the NEJM.
Also, after women got the news many others quit taking hormones and there was a several percent drop in breast cancer that has remained at the new lower incidence rate since the percentage of women willing to take the hormones has settled at a new lower rate. NEJM published a cool graph of the decline paralleling the decline in use two years earlier.
You can be sure none of these dangers will be discussed in a sex ed class in any high school.
Finally, check out the breast cancer risk calculator which should be required in any sex ed class. The more hormones you take, the fewer kids, the older you are when you have them all clearly and dramatically increase your risks.
Messing with your hormones is dangerous.
Posted by: Jacque at October 8, 2009 2:02 PM
"For example: If she is ovulating, she is attracted to men with rugged and masculine features.
However, if she is menstruating, or menopausal, she tends to prefer a man with scissors lodged in his temple and a bat jammed up his butt while he is on fire."
Reminds me of that sci-fi flick 'Species'.
I have been working for the 'scissors/baseball bat' woman for about 90 days.
I have never heard her mention her husband, children, boyfriend, family, etc.
She is very intelligent and has a memory like an computer. She has the 'gift' of administration, complimented by the gift of 'none shall go misssing'.
She particularly enoys administrating men.
[Think black leather, chains and whips.]
My discerner tells me she has multiple issues stemming from deep wounding by men, particularly those she perceives as 'father figures'.
Her preferred line of attack with the scissors would not be the cranial cavity, but the 'cajones'.
Think of the 'Stepford Wives' when they had been off their medication for a while.
I had not even considered the effect of the ebb and flow of the female reproductive cycle. Wow, I should have plotted the mood swings on the calender. Then I would have known when to take a vacation day.
I hope she find some healing before she experiences the 'change of life'.
We're talkin chain saws and hand grenades now.
yor bro ken
For your info, 'AWOMAN', I don't like MUSCLES, I just think Hugh Jackman and Sean Connery are attractive men. 'responsible, respectful, intelligent, caring, witty, charming,' just happens to describe my HUSBAND, thank you. And just for the record, AWOMAN, No, I do not think 'real women' have to have 22 inch waists and double D's.. could you be MORE presumptuous??? I'm HARDLY shallow...I care far more about a person's HEART than their looks. I was responding to someone ELSE'S post, tongue-in-cheek. Yes, I CAN 'pick 'em' as you put it...my husband is a kind,caring CHRISTIAN man. You don't know me, so as I said before, don't be so presumptuous!Posted by: Pamela at October 8, 2009 6:45 PM
Seems like the article's description of the inferior "girly" man might actually... be a nicer person?Posted by: AuntieMatter at October 8, 2009 7:16 PM
Chistina you are probably right about that(the willingness to put out may be a lure in itself). I have talked to teen girls who told me that they have been told they should go on the pill "just in case" they meet a boy, are tempted to have sex and can't resist having sex with him. I have a hard time keeping a straight face because I can guarantee them that 1. they are going to meet a boy they like 2. they are going to be tempted to have sex 3. if they are on the pill they will feel they have little or no reason to resist the pressure especially when the boy asks "you told me you are on the pill right?" Talk about a false sense of security, "I'm on the pill, nothing's going to happen). Guttmacher, PP's own research arm, says that 53% of women with unplanned pregnancies were using contraception when they got pregnant. I will ask her does she really want to be abstinent or is she more interested in being popular with boys or the in-crowd? If she wants to choose abstinence, I will encourage her to have a strongly connected, loving relationship and good communication with her parents which is the best preventive factor for her avoiding sex and other risky behaviors, then I will give her the specific strategies and boundaries that will keep her out of trouble. I tell her it's her choice but she should choose wisely because she will reap the benefits or suffer the consequences of her choice no matter how many chemical hormones in the form of pills, shots, patches or even condoms she uses. Sex is not a game it is very serious business. There never has been and never will be such a thing as "safe sex". The research on the pill in this article is just a tip of the iceberg of all the effects of hormones which MSM will NOT let out to the public.
And no, I am not going to argue about the merits of having premartal sex on a prolife blog, where we are fighting for the sanctity of life of human babies, when the vast majority of the aborted babies we are trying to save are conceived BECAUSE of premarital sex.Posted by: Prolifer L at October 8, 2009 7:53 PM
No one with as much chest hair as Hugh Jackman can be considered unmanly. Has the person who wrote this actually ever SEEN Hugh Jackman?
I find this article interesting because I'm bisexual and I'm attracted to really manly-looking men - you'd think I'd go for the androgynous ones and straight women would go for the manly ones, right? (Also attracted to really feminine-looking women, if that counts for anything.)
I'm not sure it really works to put Zac Efron in here, seeing as his fans (by and large) are teenage girls and not adult women. Actually, they're more like teenage girls and LITTLE girls.
Interesting about women being attracted to men who have dissimilar genetic makeup when they're fertile. I've never been on birth control and I have blue eyes, brown hair, and am tall for a woman, while my boyfriend has brown eyes, black hair, and is short (well, short side of average, really) for a man. I wonder if the "genetically dissimilar" thing involves personality traits and interests as well, because he's great at all the math and science things that make my brain hurt.Posted by: Marauder at October 8, 2009 9:29 PM
I love filling out job apps and questionaires when I have nothing to lose.
Then I can answer the questions without fear.
For example they have these fill in the blank quetions like-
Sex-[I like to answer 'Yes! or 'You mean with another person?]
Marital Status- 'Happily Married!
Religion- 'No, thank you. I prefer Jesus.'
How many days of work have you missed in the last ten years due to 'illness'? [Sometimes I call in 'well' if it is a relly nice a day and I just feel too good to come to work.
Do you practice 'safe sex'? I try to avoid trampolines and roller skates, and women with five o'clock shadows and baritone voices.
yor bro kenPosted by: kbhvac at October 8, 2009 9:44 PM
If you watch that youtube clip of Jojo Ruba's hosting of a feminsista chorus line at Mc Gill University you will notice more than a few quiche eating girly men led by a gaggle of gals attempting to prove their manhood.
A classic example of 'girlrilla theatre'.
yor bro kenPosted by: kbhvac at October 8, 2009 9:51 PM
Posted by: Cranky Catholic at October 8, 2009 1:08 PM
"This strikes me as another case of 'Pill Goggles'."
This seems like a variation of 'the girls all get prettier at closin time' scenario.
And then there's the rude awaking the following morning to the harsh reality of 'coyote ugly'.
And ladies I am sure it works both ways.
Trolling for trollips while under the influence is risky business.
yor bro kenPosted by: kbhvac at October 8, 2009 10:01 PM
I'd just like to put in a vote that I do not consider Hugh Jackman to be one of the more 'manly' man stars out there. In my mind the best thing that can be said about putting him in that category is that he's one of the closest things we got. Sure, he's got facial hair, but take away the metal claws and I'm not so sure he'd match up real well against a Connery, Douglas or Charlton Heston in their day.
Also... totally not a 'tough guy' image after seeing Kate and Leopold.
But really, let's face it. This generation's answer to Heston, Connery, Ford and Stallone is... Johnny Depp and Christian Bale. (Nothing against them - really enjoy their characters in a number of films, but I do agree with the article.)Posted by: Alex at October 9, 2009 12:20 AM
HA, Pill Goggles.
So my opinion of Obama as a limp-wrist is from never having taken the pill........
;-)Posted by: Phamer at October 9, 2009 6:29 PM
wtf does this have to do with quiche?
I am not generally attracted to the type that would allegedly, stereotypically be called "manly men." I have never taken the pill.
I find most men manly in their own way. I think that being a slender artist is as "manly" as being a burly cop, or whatever. I really don't quite understand all of these assumptions.Posted by: Alexandra at October 10, 2009 6:50 AM
I agree, Alexandra.Posted by: xalisae at October 11, 2009 5:27 AM
A life size of poster of Michael Dukakis adorned in WWII army helment while peering sheepishly from the hatch of an army tank.
There is a pime example of a poster boy for quiche eaters.
B.O., the man child, trying in vain to lob a baseball from the pitchers mound to home plate only to have to be rescued by a future MLB hall of famer from the embarasment of a 'one hopper'.
The girly man in the mom jeans fails yet onece again to prove his manhood.
I will give the man his creds. Though it took a while, after exploring all his options, B.O. did reach the extremely difficult and controversial decision about what kind of dog to get his two daughters. And then he had to make a choice about which gender and then whether to neuter/spay or not.
Being president is tough business. He really needed that break at Martha's Vineyard and he earned it.
yor bro kenPosted by: kbhvac at October 11, 2009 9:23 PM
While I do find the affects of birth control on chemistry interesting, I find this article to be somewhat offensive. It is perfectly acceptable to me to say that evidence connects the pill with a woman's partner preference, which does make sense considering that a woman's cycle affects her partner preference in the first place. And it's always disconcerting to think that we may be allowing artifical hormones to disrupt a natural process. But why the need to provide examples of what the author considers manly men? And isn't a bit far-fetched to conclude that Hollywood trends and rising stars automatically indicate what women prefer? Also, I'm bothered by the way the article seems to characterize men as a compilation of genetic traits by which they are judged as superior or inferior breeders. We as pro-lifers advocate the acceptance of all people, regardless of their genetics.
And I agree with Alexandra. I don't believe in an absolute definition of what qualifies as "manly." I've never been on the pill and have always been attracted to boyish faced, skinny guys, and celebrities have played no part in establishing this preference. Also, for me personally, a man's performance as a father is the ultimate indicator of manliness. And the traditional stereotype of rugged manliness hinted at in the article generally excludes active fatherhood.Posted by: Janette at October 12, 2009 7:57 PM
Huh, I've never been on the Pill and I still like the idea of snuggling up to a caring, boyish-faced man. If Hugh Jackman and Johnny Depp are "wimps", then wimps are all I want. Me-ow.Posted by: Meg at October 13, 2009 7:53 PM