Vanishing Black History Month

To the consternation of campus liberals, Portland State Students for Life in OR - spearheaded by our own commenter Nathan Sheets - last year displayed the poster above (click to enlarge) to commemorate the African-American community's aborted dead during Black History Month.

The comments stirred by my post yesterday, "Planned Parenthood takes bucks to abort blacks," resulted in an interesting find.

Pro-abort FetusFascist linked to a Centers for Disease Control stat she thought scored a point for her side....

African Americans are the second fastest-growing demographic in the US. Where is this genocide?

Our resident statistician, moderator Valerie, responded by first thanking FF for locating a table for which she had been searching for weeks. She then used FF's link to refute:

If you compare from 1960 to today you will see the genocide.

[JLS note: "rate" is number of births per 1,000 women.]

1960 black birth rate is 38.9
1965 black birth rate is 32.9
1970 black birth rate is 26.5
1975 black birth rate is 19.5
1980 black birth rate is 19.7

I think you get the point here. Today the black birth rate is 15.7.

This is called the decline of a race.

Now when we add the rate of black abortion, which is 28 [number of abortions per 1,000 women], you got your genocide. [For CDC corroboration see bottom of table #9.]

Genocide anyone? The birth rate is lower than the abortion rate for blacks.

black%20power.jpg

One other thing.

In 1990 the U.S. Census Bureau ranked Blacks as the largest minority in the US. Hispanics were 2nd.

In 2000 the U.S. Census ranked Blacks as 2nd largest minority.

Hispanics barely edged them out by .2%.

The sun is setting on Black Power, thanks to Abortion Power.


Comments:

Pro-abortionists simply can't stand the word "genocide" in this debate, as seen with the Genocide Awareness Project. Usually of the liberal-ilk, they self-righteously see themselves as the defenders of carefully chosen groups of "genocide", and to be accused of supporting a genocide themselves is unthinkable.

Posted by: Nathan Will Sheets at February 27, 2008 2:41 PM


Excuse me?

The birthrate for white Americans in 2005 was 11+ per thousand.
The birthrate for African Americans in 2005 was 15+ per thousand.

African Americans have more abortions, but they also have way more pregnancies, resulting in a hiher birthrate.

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 27, 2008 3:14 PM


This is called the decline of a race.

Nope, just a decline in birth rates. The white American birth rate has declined a lot since 1960, too. So what? People don't want to have as many kids these days, and thanks to birth control and legal abortion, they don't have to.

Genocide anyone? The birth rate is lower than the abortion rate for blacks.

How is it genocide? Women having abortions when they don't want babies, and giving birth when they do, is not genocide.

Posted by: reality at February 27, 2008 3:34 PM


Curious how anti-choice extremists, who are 99% White and 75% male, want to use "genocide" against African Americans to further their cause.
The photos of "who we are", including Mr. Sheets, all appear to portray White people.

Is it possible African American women don't wish to be told what to do by White guys?

And really, use of the 70 year old, out of context quote from Margaret Sanger, (who has been dead nearly 40 years) to attack PP is a bit worn out.

While "genocide" is a very inflammatory term, which extremists love to use, it describes persons killed due to their ethnicity by those of another ethnicity, not African American women choosing to abort.

Maybe an African American woman will be willing to comment on these articles, and the allegations of "genocide". It would provide an interesting perspective.

Posted by: anonymous at February 27, 2008 3:36 PM


So what? They SHOULD be having more abortions because they have a higher birthrate? Yep, better hurry up and get rid of all those black people.

Ya know, we wouldn't want em' to take over or anything like that.

Ick...racism is alive and well in 2008. How sad.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 27, 2008 3:37 PM


No, here's what I'm saying-

If I get pregnant one hundred times and I abort 30% of the time, I'm going to end up with 70 babies.

If you get pregnant three times and never have an abortion, you're going to end up with three babies.

My abortion rate would be higher, but my birthrate is still be greater than yours.

That's what were looking at with these stats. African American women have more abortions, but because they have more pregnancies their birthrate is higher than that of White Americans.
There is no genocide.

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 27, 2008 3:46 PM


Elizabeth -

So what?

Exactly. So what?

They SHOULD be having more abortions because they have a higher birthrate?

You're the first person to use the word "should." But logic would seem to dictate that if a particular racial group tends to have a higher unintended pregnancy rate, and a higher rate of poverty, that's going to lead to a higher abortion rate.

Yep, better hurry up and get rid of all those black people. Ya know, we wouldn't want em' to take over or anything like that. Ick...racism is alive and well in 2008.

Indeed, and you just gave us a nice example of it.

Posted by: reality at February 27, 2008 3:57 PM


OH NOES@!!!!@!! PRO_LIFERs HVA LOTZ oF WYTE PEOPLZ!!!!!!

I love to simultaneous arguments of pro-lifers being racist and yet "telling black people what to do". I don't care about someone's color. Just because many black people are (ignorantly, by the way) pro-abortion means nothing. That has nothing to do with the arguments we present to show that Planned Parenthood is specifically targeting minorities.

I could point out that a large number of pro-aborts are feminist lesbians. WHOS ARE THEYZ TO JUDGE????/?/??????

Posted by: Nathan Will Sheets at February 27, 2008 4:09 PM


FF -

"The birthrate for white Americans in 2005 was 11+ per thousand.
The birthrate for African Americans in 2005 was 15+ per thousand."

Try to keep up okay?

The birthrate is lower than the abortion rate for blacks.

White: (numbers in thousands)

All pregnancies - 3,494
Live births - 2,388
Induced abortions - 493

Black: (numbers in thousands)

all pregnancies - 1,242
Live births - 592
Induced abortions - 485


This means that approx 14% of white pregnancies end in abortion.

This means that approx 40% of black pregnancies end in abortion.

In the early 1970's the African American community was predicted to become the largest minority America had ever had by the year 2000. Now it is struggling to maintain the status quo.

The choices that these women are making are based on half-truths and misleading information. When they go to a PP they are told that there is no help available to them to keep the baby. They are given a referral to a doctor. And that is the end of the appt. What if they don't have transportation? What if they don't have an education? Well, then they should abort right?

Nobody tells them that there is help. No one tells them that there are organizations out there like Project Gabriel that will get you the transportation to the doctor. That will provide you with shelter if needed. And will also give you all your options in getting an education. This way she can choose to keep the baby AND get out of poverty. The Project Gabriel that I am a part of got people to donate to a woman so she could go to a trade school and get a better job. We got another woman a computer so she could work from home and take care of her baby. We have helped women actually BUY homes through habitat for humanity. We are there for her before, during and after birth. We routinely have baby showers at my church to help women who need a crib, clothes, formula, diapers, etc. One woman is providing free daycare until the mother can graduate from school.

Does PP tell them anything about these services so they can actually make a choice? PP cannot even list on their yearly reports how many referrals they do for adoption or prenatal care. Actually, 0.12% of PP services went toward Prenatal care in 2005!

What does PP and the pro-choice organizations do? They trash the very organizations that will provide help to women in poverty. They scare women by telling them that these organizations will kidnap them and force them to watch video's that are untrue. That is about 1% of the CPC's out there. Yet, that is what PP and the likes report to the very people that need help to make an informed choice.

What does PP and NARAL do? They publish a document that talks about how horrible adoption is. They even quote from a group called "exiled mothers" which is a bunch of women who lost their children and now blame everyone but themselves for it. They trash the very places that will help them and they trash adoption.

oh yea, no agenda there!

www.prochoice.org/pubs_research/publications/downloads/public_policy/cpc_report.pdf

If all they say actually happened at CPC's don't you think there would be more lawsuits than just abortion clinics suing because the CPC's name resembles their? However, no lawsuits or criminal charges have ever been filed against a CPC for kidnapping, intimidation or violation of privacy. hmmm?

Posted by: valerie at February 27, 2008 4:12 PM


How is it genocide? Women having abortions when they don't want babies, and giving birth when they do, is not genocide.

Posted by: reality at February 27, 2008 3:34 PM

It IS for the babies!

Posted by: JLM at February 27, 2008 4:14 PM


I could point out that a large number of pro-aborts are feminist lesbians. WHOS ARE THEYZ TO JUDGE????/?/??????

Posted by: Nathan Will Sheets at February 27, 2008 4:09 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Really? I'd love to see your stats.

By the way, weren't you the geek who told Jill that "'fo shizzle" was hip?

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 27, 2008 4:15 PM


Ick...racism is alive and well in 2008. How sad.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 27, 2008 3:37 PM

Ah, the legend of Margaret Sanger lives on.....

Posted by: JLM at February 27, 2008 4:16 PM


Lol, reality..my daughter's bi-racial..so good luck calling ME a racist. L.O.L.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 27, 2008 4:20 PM


FF -

"My abortion rate would be higher, but my birthrate is still be greater than yours."

That's not how it works.

The birth rate is the number of births per 1,000 people. So the black birth rate is the number of births per 1,000 black people.

So, in 2005 there was 16.2 black births per 1,000 black people and 13.4 white births per 1,000 white people.

Now, since the black population is a minority this really isn't that many births in comparisons to the white population.

There were 2,284,505 white babies born in 2005 and 583,907 black babies born in 2005.

Posted by: valerie at February 27, 2008 4:22 PM


Valerie: 4:22 p.m.

Good post!

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 27, 2008 4:26 PM


Try to keep up okay?

The birthrate is lower than the abortion rate for blacks.
White:
All pregnancies - 3,494

Black: (numbers in thousands)
all pregnancies - 1,242
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just like I said.
African Americans are about 12% of the population, but they account for better than 20% of all pregnancies.

When you have more pregnancies, you can have a high abortion rate and STILL have a high birthrate.

Where is the genocide when the White birthrate is 11.5 per thousand and the African American birthrate is 15.7 per thousand? African Americans still outpace White Americans when it comes to birthrates. There is no genocide.


Posted by: FetusFascist at February 27, 2008 4:35 PM


JLM --

It IS for the babies!

"Babies" is not a racial or ethnic group. And no need to worry, babies are not going extinct any time soon.

Posted by: reality at February 27, 2008 4:35 PM


anonymous -

"Curious how anti-choice extremists, who are 99% White and 75% male, "

A 1999 Gallup pole showed that the percentage of men to women is this:

Pro-Choice:

Men - 47%
Women - 49%

Pro-life:

Men - 43%
Women - 42%

The University of Cincinnati also did a study on this and found:

59% of women oppose abortion except for rape/incest, life/health of mother.

46% of men oppose abortion except for rape/incest, life/health of mother

The largest pro-life group is the American Right to Life where nearly 2/3 of the members are women.

Nine out of ten volunteers at Birthright (national CPC) are women.

The National Office of CareNet (A network of CPC's) estimate that 80 to 90% of their workers are women.

The Right to Life Delegates elected by the states are 38 women and 13 men (51 because of DC)

What was that about pro-life being mostly male?

Unfortunately I can't find any stats based on race for either pro-life or pro-choice.

Posted by: valerie at February 27, 2008 4:41 PM


There were 2,284,505 white babies born in 2005 and 583,907 black babies born in 2005.

Posted by: valerie at February 27, 2008 4:22 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well there you go-
African Americans represent about 12% of the population, but represent around 20% of all babies born.

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 27, 2008 4:41 PM


If abortion of Black fetuses is genocide, then are Black women the perpetrators of said genocide?

Because that's the logical conclusion this argument gets to.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 27, 2008 4:44 PM


Because that's the logical conclusion this argument gets to.

Actually, it's not...the abortionists are the perpetrators along with the propagandists who work for PP.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 27, 2008 4:49 PM


And really, use of the 70 year old, out of context quote from Margaret Sanger, (who has been dead nearly 40 years) to attack PP is a bit worn out.

So I guess we can negate and forget about all of the other racism that occured 70 years ago.
That whole KKK thing is a bit worn out.

Posted by: Sandy at February 27, 2008 4:50 PM


FF -

You are just refusing to see this aren't you.

Genocide by definition doesn't have to be quick and over with immediately.

This is slow genocide.

40% of black pregnancies end in abortion.

They were suppose to be the biggest minority group based on census estimates in the 1970's.

Because of abortion they are not the biggest minority, they are about to be overshadowed and they have consistently remained in the same percentage where hispanics and whites have increased.

You have to look at the big picture, not just one year or one stat. You have to look at the entire picture. (kinda like looking at only one section of a Picasso and thinking you understand it)

The black population is being slowly reduced in numbers. Every decade the US census gets stats from every state, however in the years between there they do estimates. These estimates are based on past numbers/declines/births/deaths/etc.... It is a computer that comes up with the numbers. Every decade the CDC has to make amendments to their yearly estimates because the actual statistic showed the estimates were inaccurate. The biggest adjustment for the black community was in the 1990's because their growth rate ended up being much smaller than what the computer predicted it would be based on past data.

This information was actually reported by the BBC sometime in 2002 or 2003. I didn't hear it reported in the U.S.

Posted by: valerie at February 27, 2008 4:51 PM


Valerie --

This means that approx 14% of white pregnancies end in abortion. This means that approx 40% of black pregnancies end in abortion.

And all that means is that black women have more unintended pregnancies. If they had the same easy access to contraception as white people (not to mention income), they would have a lower abortion rate.

When they go to a PP they are told that there is no help available to them to keep the baby.

That's not true at all.

Does PP tell them anything about these services so they can actually make a choice?

Yes.

They even quote from a group called "exiled mothers" which is a bunch of women who lost their children and now blame everyone but themselves for it.

Wow, funny how women who regret their abortions get so much sympathy from you, but women who regret their adoptions are just "a bunch of women who blame everyone but themselves." Amazing!

Posted by: reality at February 27, 2008 4:51 PM


FF -

"Well there you go-
African Americans represent about 12% of the population, but represent around 20% of all babies born."

There are more in America than just White and Black ya know.

There are Hispanics, Native Americans, etc.

I'll get you those numbers....give me a sec....

Posted by: valerie at February 27, 2008 4:53 PM


Sandy,

Seriously..the KKK..when will everybody just move on?

And man...all that harping about slavery and how blacks didn't have equal rights for a long time. geeeeeez, get over it already!

(I hope my sarcasm is sensed)

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 27, 2008 4:57 PM


Reality -

"That's not true at all.

Does PP tell them anything about these services so they can actually make a choice?

Yes."

Prove it. My proof was in their statistics. I noticed you glossed over all that.


"Wow, funny how women who regret their abortions get so much sympathy from you, but women who regret their adoptions are just "a bunch of women who blame everyone but themselves." Amazing! "

Stop the drive by reading will ya?

Pro-Choice America quoted from exiled mothers only and used it as proof as to how horrible adoption is. Why did they not go to any of the millions of adoption agencies to get opinions or take polls?

Also, I've read the literature from Exiled Mothers and 3/4 of what they say is not true. They say that the government takes kids away for no reason and tricks mothers into signing away papers. Yet statistics show that the majority of abused children were once removed but based on laws had to be returned to their parent(s). The government doesn't "force" anyone to sign over their child unless there is good reason to.... Like a woman I know in Ohio who had 8 Crack babies. Numbers 5 - 8 were taken away from her at the hospital and she lost all custody. I would think that after 4 crack babies she would have realised how bad it was wouldn't you?

My point was the inaccuracy of their "proof" not the disappointment of a mother who had 6 months to change their minds. A mother doesn't get that with abortion does she?

I do have sympathy for the woman who gives her child up for adoption so she can still party and do drugs then changes her ways and realizes what she had done. There are support groups for those women by the way.


Posted by: valerie at February 27, 2008 5:02 PM


REality,

Please, that old tired argument about easier access to contraceptives cutting down on abortion. Sources please as to why black women don't have the access to contraception white women do. Can't black women get to PP for contraceptives? I thought PP was so "concerned" about minorities and providing them with contraception and health care. Did it ever occur to you that easier access to abortion just might make people less inclined to worry about contraception or becoming pregnant and use abortion as a method of birth control? I have encountered any number of women who were sexually active, not using contraception, "shocked" that they became pregnant(?) and had abortions, which they could easily obtain.

Posted by: Mary at February 27, 2008 5:06 PM


FF -

Based on the numbers in the link you provided:

www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/prelimbirths05_tables.pdf#1

% of births:

White: 55%
Hispanic: 23%
Black: 14%
Asian or Pacific Islander: 5%
American Indian or Native Alaskan: 1%

According to the US census the % of population is:

White: 80.1%
Black: 12.8%
Hispanic: 14.8%
Asian or Pacific Islander 4.6%
Native American or Native Alaskan: 1%

Posted by: valerie at February 27, 2008 5:12 PM


FF -

Sorry, I forgot...

The total # of births was 4,140,419


Posted by: valerie at February 27, 2008 5:14 PM


Mary,

Per reality...I notice she says they don't have access to contraception...but abortion they have access too?

Heck, move to New York. They're passing out condoms on the street corners...

Posted by: mk at February 27, 2008 5:18 PM


Per reality...I notice she says they don't have access to contraception...but abortion they have access too?

Really! What's with that?

Valerie, you've done an excellent job with statistics, as usual. Thank you for pointing out this very important information!!!

Posted by: Bethany at February 27, 2008 5:22 PM


Valerie --

I've read the literature from Exiled Mothers and 3/4 of what they say is not true.

I've read the literature from Rachel's Vineyard, and at least 3/4 of what they say is not true.

They say that the government takes kids away for no reason and tricks mothers into signing away papers.

That site has a lot of personal stories from women who've experienced adoptions. Who are you to call them liars?

The Silent No More women tell a lot of less than believable stories as well, but you don't seem to doubt their outlandish tales of careless, criminal abortion providers.

My point was the inaccuracy of their "proof" not the disappointment of a mother who had 6 months to change their minds. A mother doesn't get that with abortion does she?

I'm not sure why you think that every mother gets six months to change her mind about an adoption. Challenging an adoption involves hiring a lawyer and going to court, and it's never a sure thing.

I do have sympathy for the woman who gives her child up for adoption so she can still party and do drugs then changes her ways and realizes what she had done.

Painting them all as drug users isn't what I'd call "sympathy."

Posted by: reality at February 27, 2008 5:37 PM


mk --

Per reality...I notice she says they don't have access to contraception...but abortion they have access too?

The thing about contraception is that you have to have steady, reliable access to it for it to work well, and that means having reliable transportation, a steady income, etc..

Abortion, on the other hand, is only needed when one experiences an unwanted pregnancy.

So if a woman is poor and isolated, she may not have steady transportation and steady income to buy contraception every month. But if she gets pregnant, she has several months to save up and find a ride to the abortion clinic.

So you can see, sometimes abortion is more feasible than contraception, unfortunately.

Posted by: reality at February 27, 2008 5:47 PM


Reality,

She and her partner can't stock up on condoms? She can't arrange with the nice people at PP for a few extra months supply of BCPs? I'm sure given their concern for the poor they would be more than happy to spare her a lot of trips. She can't get the contraceptive shot that lasts I believe 3 months? I know a young woman getting it and it really works well for her.

Certainly if she can save up and get a ride to the abortion clinic she can get a ride every 2 or 3 months to get her birth control.

Posted by: Mary at February 27, 2008 5:59 PM


Reality,

Another possibility is a vasectomy or tubal ligation if she and her partner are certain they want no more children. You'd be surprised the intelligent educated people I saw who never considered this option when they decided years earlier they wanted no more children. They got it done right after her abortion though.
You'd also be surprised the women I've heard pee and moan about having more children after deciding they didn't want anymore. Their birth control "failed". Excuse me madame, did you consider a tubal?

Posted by: Mary at February 27, 2008 6:03 PM


Anon says:

I am an African American women who is a wife, mother and PRO-LIFE. The fact that AA women have chosen to abort their babies has many causes but most of all we have unwittingly bought into the lie that "abortiion will solve the poverty problem of my community".
This will NEVER be the solution to poverty and racism because the destruction of our unborn is the ultimate "poverty of values". Until we unwittingly bought into the lies of Margaret Sanger, her "Negro (sterilization) Project" and her organization Planned Parenthood, which was promoted by the so-called " AA civil rights leadership and the Democratic Party" we never considered this a viable, acceptable option for our women.
(We took care of our unwed mothers and their babies). Until the 1970's only 30% of our births were to unwed mothers, now almost 70% of our births are because the mentality of PP has taken root in our community and promoted unrestrained, promiscious sexual behavior. Until we come back to Godly values of faith and two- parent, married, stable families and live a life of self-control, discipline, dignity and self-respect, not only will AA women continue to suffer the horrible physical, emotional and spiritual consequences of this holocaust but white women, Hispanic women etc, will as well. I will not waste my time arguing with people like FF on this blog because I have seen first hand what abortion has done to my relatives, friends and community. These people are blinded to believe that the destruction of an innocent unborn baby can benefit the mother, the AA community, this country and the world. For my people who suffered the indiginities of slavery and segregation to buy into this ultimate act of devaluing the God-given gift of life is truly the greatest of tragedies. I will pray for you prolifers and the pro-aborts like FF also. For those who want to read a good book about what is happening to our culture there is an excellent book by Star Parker "White Ghetto".

Posted by: anonomous at February 27, 2008 6:37 PM


Certainly if she can save up and get a ride to the abortion clinic she can get a ride every 2 or 3 months to get her birth control.

but you see Mary, that would mean taking responsibility for your actions. Since there are no real consequences for NOT using birth control (ie: a quick trip to the clinic) why go through all that trouble?

Posted by: mk at February 27, 2008 6:45 PM


Anonymous, 6:37 thank you so much for your post.

Posted by: Bethany at February 27, 2008 7:16 PM


Anon, 6:37...God bless you.

I will have to get that book by Star Parker too. The truth will always prevail and I appreciate you coming here to state your thoughts from the perspective of an African-American woman.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 27, 2008 7:25 PM


Reality:

"I've read the literature from Rachel's Vineyard, and at least 3/4 of what they say is not true. "

Which part isn't true? There stories can be backed up by government statistics.

"That site has a lot of personal stories from women who've experienced adoptions. Who are you to call them liars? "

Yes, yes you're right. All unwed mothers live in a home for pregnant singles and are forced to give their babies up for adoption. WOW! These homes must be huge considering the rate for unwed women having babies is 43.3. oh wait - they forgot to mention that those stats were from 1956 (ya have to read the fine print.)

There "big" proof is taken from a survey on 1,000 single pregnant women from 1950 - 1975 in the UK. (oh, they were in "homes" too.)

And everyone knows that the adoption agencies lie in order to get the women to give up their babies, and even though there is a signed contract the birthmother cannot do a darn thing about it.

oh. and there guestbook is full of women who have been reunited with their children or adopted children being reunited with their birth mother. Could this be the reason why there hasn't been anyone in their guestbook since 2004?

And the mothers who maintain that their babies were stolen are all from several decades ago. Pro-Choice America didn't mention that. They also didn't mention that those barbaric adoption practices are illegal.
You need to learn to read a bit more. The "adoption is bad" statistic from Pro-Choice America is from that website. With all their inaccurate and out of date information.

"The Silent No More women tell a lot of less than believable stories as well, but you don't seem to doubt their outlandish tales of careless, criminal abortion providers. "

I've never read stories like that on Silent no more. I've read stories where they grieve for the dead baby and that their boyfriend, etc. pushed them into it. Another good portion of the stories are about women who made alot of bad choices and they wished they were told there was help out there for them. The abortion providers are bad thing isn't front and center, and most have the names of the abortionist and if you check, those abortionist have been in trouble before. so much for "outlandish tales".

"I'm not sure why you think that every mother gets six months to change her mind about an adoption. Challenging an adoption involves hiring a lawyer and going to court, and it's never a sure thing. "

Because it is federal law and if the birth mother cannot afford an attorny the state pays for it. Happened to my Brother-N-laws cousin. That is why I know.

After 6 months then the birth mother has to hire her own attorney. Of course private adoptions are different, but the birth mother is a part of the writing of the contract.

"Painting them all as drug users isn't what I'd call "sympathy."

Now, Now, that is not what I said is it? Why don't you go back and re-read it. This time I suggest you don't do the drive by reading.

I'll leave this with some wonderful quotes from exiled mothers:

"... it is quite possible that, in the near future, unwed mothers will be "punished" by having their children taken from them right after birth. A policy like this would not be executed -- nor labeled explicitly -- as "punishment." - Unmarried Mothers, by Clark Vincent (1961)

"Adoption is a violent act, a political act of aggression towards a woman who has supposedly offended the sexual mores by committing the unforgivable act of not suppressing her sexuality, and therefore not keeping it for trading purposes through traditional marriage. The crime is a grave one, for she threatens the very fabric of our society. The penalty is severe. She is stripped of her child by a variety of subtle and not so subtle manoeuvres and then brutally abandoned." - Joss Shawyer, Death by Adoption, Cicada Press (1979)

Posted by: valerie at February 27, 2008 7:31 PM


"Anon, 6:37...God bless you."

maybe I'm too suspicious, but I smell a rat. What an interesting compilation of the pro-life arguments posted here over the last few days by an anonymous poster. I know we're all anonymous, but this one even more so. Reads like something HisMan would compose.

Posted by: Hal at February 27, 2008 7:39 PM



When you have more pregnancies, you can have a high abortion rate and STILL have a high birthrate.

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 27, 2008 4:35 PM

Yes, as you point out, it is numerically possible to have many abortions and have many births.

However, that is not what is happening.

The birthrate for blacks is barely replacement rate.

All of the growth in African American population is immigration.

Posted by: hippie at February 27, 2008 7:42 PM


maybe I'm too suspicious, but I smell a rat. What an interesting compilation of the pro-life arguments posted here over the last few days by an anonymous poster. I know we're all anonymous, but this one even more so. Reads like something HisMan would compose.

Posted by: Hal at February 27, 2008 7:39 PM

ARRGGHHHHHHHH Will it ever end?

Hal,
Did you just throw back another glass of PP Kool-aid???


Posted by: Sandy at February 27, 2008 8:18 PM


@ anonomous at February 27, 2008 6:37 PM

Thank you for so graciously stating your experiences. I have seen and/or heard Star Parker interiewed on more than one occasion and am in awe of her courage and convictions.
Bless you.

Posted by: Sandy at February 27, 2008 8:21 PM


Because that's the logical conclusion this argument gets to.

Actually, it's not...the abortionists are the perpetrators along with the propagandists who work for PP.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 27, 2008 4:49 PM
..........................................................

So what you are saying is that black women are too stupid to think for themselves. The only reason any black women would ever have an abortion would be to please a white racist. That's pretty twisted Elizabeth.


Posted by: Sally at February 27, 2008 8:40 PM


Here is another example of the Black Genocide:

Rate is the number of abortions per 1,000 women aged 15 - 44 in the specific group(In previous post I accidently forgot to put in the age range...)

Ratio is the number of abortions per 1,000 live births in the specific group.

EX: (numbers made up) white rate is 10 then that means there were 10 abortions for every 1,000 white women aged 15 - 44. white ratio is 100 that means there were 100 abortions per 1,000 white live births.

Here are the real numbers for 2004:

White:

Rate - 10
Ratio - 161

Black:

Rate - 28
Ratio - 472

Hispanic:

Rate - 26
Ratio - 211


This no one can deny. For every 1,000 black babies born there are 472 black babies aborted. Compare that to the other two.

How can people still argue this? No other race is being targeted like this.

And no, I do not believe that blacks cannot think for themselves. I think they have been lied to and manipulated into believeing that abortion is the cure all. Contraception just increases the abortion numbers, this has been shown time and time again.

This is one way Margaret Sanger was different than the PP of today. Sanger believed that contraception would put an end to abortion. Obviously she was wrong on that. (she wrote that belief in her autobiography.)

Posted by: valerie at February 27, 2008 9:57 PM


"How can people still argue this? No other race is being targeted like this."

Targeted? What's a nice way to say "you're insane?"

Posted by: Hal at February 27, 2008 10:38 PM


This no one can deny. For every 1,000 black babies born there are 472 black babies aborted. Compare that to the other two.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No.

Let's say that for every 1000 black babies born there were 87,000 black babies aborted. It would NOT CHANGE THE FACT that African Americans still outpace White Americans by birthrate. It just means they're having more pregnancies, and aborting a great number of them.
The fact that the white birthrate is 11.5 out of 1000, and the black birthrate is 15.7 out of 1000 does not change.

Posted by: FetusFascist at February 28, 2008 2:59 AM


FF -

I mean no offense by this. Here is a book you may want to consider looking at:

www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesTitle/Statistics-For-Dummies.productCd-0764554239.html

"Let's say that for every 1000 black babies born there were 87,000 black babies aborted."

That statement says it all to me. You have no idea what is going on with the numbers. This is the second time you have made a statistically irrational statment.

Posted by: valerie at February 28, 2008 7:21 AM


Hal -

"What's a nice way to say "you're insane?"

How about:

"It takes one to know one".

;-)

On re-thinking, you are right that "Targeted" is probably the wrong word, but I think you get what I mean.

Posted by: valerie at February 28, 2008 7:23 AM


Valerie 7:21 lol

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 8:00 AM


Mary --

She and her partner can't stock up on condoms?

Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Of course, condoms are not the most reliable form of contraception out there, as you probably know.

She can't arrange with the nice people at PP for a few extra months supply of BCPs?

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on her income and whether or not the local PP clinic has been forced to close down thanks to pro-lifers cutting off state funding.

She can't get the contraceptive shot that lasts I believe 3 months?

Maybe, maybe not. Some women have bad reactions to it. And if you happen to not have the money when it's time to get another shot, accidents can happen.

Certainly if she can save up and get a ride to the abortion clinic she can get a ride every 2 or 3 months to get her birth control.

Sadly, this is far from certain. People can't always get rides and money on schedule, when they need it.

Another possibility is a vasectomy or tubal ligation if she and her partner are certain they want no more children.

Doctors are reluctant to give tubal ligations to women under 35 with fewer than 3 kids, and they're not cheap. And many women and men don't want to permanently sterilize themselves, in the hope that they will one day be able to afford more kids.

Posted by: reality at February 28, 2008 8:14 AM


Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Of course, condoms are not the most reliable form of contraception out there, as you probably know.

So you disagree with Planned Parenthood now, Reality? Planned Parenthood tells me that if we use condoms, we'll be "safe"!

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 8:46 AM


Valerie --

Which part isn't true? There stories can be backed up by government statistics.

What government statistics would those be? I don't believe the government collects statistics on women's feelings about their abortions.

Yes, yes you're right.

I know I am. If you'd just remember this from now on, it'd save you a lot of typing.

All unwed mothers live in a home for pregnant singles and are forced to give their babies up for adoption.

I don't see that anywhere on the Exiled mothers site. I know a lot of women in the '60s were indeed forced to live in unwed mothers' homes and give up their babies. Not sure how often that sort of thing happens today, but this story from the Village Voice is certainly troubling. This article, by the way, is what Pro-Choice America was referencing.

You need to learn to read a bit more. The "adoption is bad" statistic from Pro-Choice America is from that website. With all their inaccurate and out of date information.

I didn't see any "adoption is bad" statistics on that link you posted. It was just a long report on why CPCs suck.

I've never read stories like that on Silent no more. I've read stories where they grieve for the dead baby and that their boyfriend, etc. pushed them into it.

Sounds like they're just "blaming everyone but themselves," right? After all, if my boyfriend tried to tell me to kill my child, I would kick that boyfriend to the curb. What kind of mother kills her child then blames the boyfriend for telling her to do it?

Another good portion of the stories are about women who made alot of bad choices and they wished they were told there was help out there for them.

That can't be true, because clinics like Planned Parenthood always tell women about their options and groups that can help them keep their babies. More "blaming everyone but themselves," right?

Because it is federal law and if the birth mother cannot afford an attorny the state pays for it.

But obviously, having an attorney does not guarantee that a woman can get her child back.

Posted by: reality at February 28, 2008 8:47 AM


Bethany --

So you disagree with Planned Parenthood now, Reality?

Nope, I agree with them that condoms are not 100% effective.

Posted by: reality at February 28, 2008 8:49 AM



Sounds like they're just "blaming everyone but themselves," right? After all, if my boyfriend tried to tell me to kill my child, I would kick that boyfriend to the curb. What kind of mother kills her child then blames the boyfriend for telling her to do it?

The kind of woman who kills her child.

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 8:50 AM


Definition of "genocide" that is applicable to abortion:

genocide: "The deliberate and systmatic destruction of a national, racial, religious, political, cultural, ethnic, or other group defined by the exterminators as undesirable" (Webster's New World Encyclopedia, Prentice Hall General Reference, 1992).

Posted by: Doyle at February 28, 2008 8:51 AM


Doctors are reluctant to give tubal ligations to women under 35 with fewer than 3 kids, and they're not cheap. And many women and men don't want to permanently sterilize themselves, in the hope that they will one day be able to afford more kids.

Baloney. My Ob-gyn asked me if I wanted a tubal while I was delivering baby #2.

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 8:52 AM


Oh and I was 21.

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 8:53 AM


Nope, I agree with them that condoms are not 100% effective.

Yeah, that disclaimer is in BOLD BIG print all over their ads.

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 8:57 AM


Reality,

The fact is she and partner can stock up on condoms. They're not always reliable? Gee, I thought condom usage was "safe sex" and protection against AIDS. Why are they handed out like candy?

Well since PP is so concerned about the poor then I'm sure they'd give this unfortunate woman a huge discount and a few extra months supply. The local PP clinic may have shut down? Well, maybe instead of scraping their pennies to build their megaclinics like they have in Aurora and Denver they should instead put the money into smaller, rural clinics to better serve the poor.
Also, this woman never leaves her rural home? Doesn't she ever grocery shop? Doesn't she have medical assistance, and a local doctor or free clinic for herself and her family? They couldn't provided her with birth control?

Concerning the shots. Wouldn't PP be happy to provide her and other women in her circumstances with discounts? No money for shots? I thought you said these women can save up money for abortions and find transportation, but they're totally incapable of saving up money and finding a ride for a contraceptive shot every three months? It really sounds like something a visiting nurse or a local clinic could administer to her. Does PP have medical personnel willing to go to the client's home and administer her shot?
She may have a bad reaction to the shot? She may have a bad reaction to an abortion as well.

Doctors are more than willing to perform tubals and vasectomies on people under 35. I know people who have had them done and if I had a dime for every tubal I've done I'd retire, mostly on women under age 35. Doctors do not consider only age and number of children, but the circumstances of the patient as well. Patients who want them can get them, and that has included single women as well. I know of only one instance where our neighbor was given an argument by her OB, but she insisted and got it done. She was 28.
A woman can have it done immediately after giving birth while she is still in the hospital. That's in fact the best time. She can come in as an outpatient and leave the hospital by noon.
Vasectomies are done in doctor's offices.

They may be expensive but in the long run cheaper than birth control. Payment arrangements can be made. I'm not certain if medical assistance covers them.
Quite honestly Reality, I don't understand why more people don't, especially when I've heard people say, "we decided years ago we didn't want anymore children" when going for their abortions.
And they weren't poor, uneducated, or ignorant concerning sterilization.

Posted by: Mary at February 28, 2008 9:03 AM


She may have a bad reaction to the shot? She may have a bad reaction to an abortion as well.

REALLY!

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 9:05 AM


bethany --

My Ob-gyn asked me if I wanted a tubal while I was delivering baby #2.

How nice. You should post your OB/GYN's information to some childfree websites, because they're always complaining that they can't find doctors willing to sterilize them.

Posted by: reality at February 28, 2008 9:06 AM


Bethany --

The kind of woman who kills her child.

Finally! A pro-lifer willing to admit that the "I Regret My Abortion" set are just a bunch of killers with no one to blame but themselves. Thank you!

Posted by: reality at February 28, 2008 9:09 AM


Yeah, that disclaimer is in BOLD BIG print all over their ads.

Bethany,

Have you ever seen the friends episode where Rachel tells Ross she's pregnant? She tells him condoms are only about 85% effective and he goes "Well they should put that on the box!!" Rachel says: "They do!" lol and then he tries to call the condom company and file a complaint lol. One of the funniest episodes I've EVER seen.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 28, 2008 9:12 AM


Mary --

The fact is she and partner can stock up on condoms.

Sadly, that is not always the case.

Well since PP is so concerned about the poor then I'm sure they'd give this unfortunate woman a huge discount

Kind of hard to do when anti-choicers keep cutting off their birth control funding.

Doctors are more than willing to perform tubals and vasectomies

But many people can not afford them, and many more do not want them because they hope to have children in the future.

Posted by: reality at February 28, 2008 9:13 AM


Finally! A pro-lifer willing to admit that the "I Regret My Abortion" set are just a bunch of killers with no one to blame but themselves. Thank you!

Many of them are, Reality. Absolutely!
I never said there weren't some women that were like that.

However, many women are ignorant of fetal development too, sadly. Those are the women who when they learn what they've done, severely regret it.

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 9:15 AM


Have you ever seen the friends episode where Rachel tells Ross she's pregnant? She tells him condoms are only about 85% effective and he goes "Well they should put that on the box!!" Rachel says: "They do!" lol and then he tries to call the condom company and file a complaint lol. One of the funniest episodes I've EVER seen.

Yes, I do remember that. LOL!
It is funny because it is so true, so typical!
I mean, really, who is going to read the fine print? Virtually no one, and PP (as well as other sources) knows that.

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 9:17 AM


How nice. You should post your OB/GYN's information to some childfree websites, because they're always complaining that they can't find doctors willing to sterilize them.

My doctor wasn't out of the ordinary. Childfree people complain about everything (don't believe me, go read up on the childfree blog and see if you see anything but complaints about people who have kids). There is little truth to any of their complaints.


Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 9:20 AM


P.S.

Well, maybe instead of scraping their pennies to build their megaclinics like they have in Aurora and Denver they should instead put the money into smaller, rural clinics to better serve the poor.

Funny you should mention Denver. If memory serves me, the new Denver clinic is located in a poor, black area of town, is it not? And anti-choicers point to this as proof that PP is "targeting blacks for genocide," when in reality, they're just putting birth control close to the people who need it the most.

When they put their clinics near the poor, you guys call it "genocide." And when they put clinics in more affluent areas, you cry, "not in my backyard!"

Posted by: reality at February 28, 2008 9:21 AM


The fact is she and partner can stock up on condoms.
Sadly, that is not always the case.

Why not? If they can save up the money for an abortion they sure as heck can save up for a pack of condoms or two!

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 9:22 AM


Come on, Bethany...you and I both know buying condoms is a hassle! Why do that when you can JUST have an abortion?!!

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 28, 2008 9:27 AM


Come on, Bethany...you and I both know buying condoms is a hassle! Why do that when you can JUST have an abortion?!

LOL I know. So true! :-P



Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 9:34 AM


Reality,

If they can build megaclinics like the ones in Aurora and Denver, they can't be destitute. Maybe they could instead apply the funds for the megaclinics toward the rural areas and help the low income people they are supposedly so concerned about.

Posted by: Mary at February 28, 2008 9:38 AM


Bethany,

When someone is really poor, all it takes is one layoff, busted engine, bad illness or other unforeseen expense to wipe out the monthly budget and leave a woman with no money for condoms/pills/whatever for a few weeks/months.

Poor people don't have the constant financial security that middle class white folks have. But birth control use has to be constant for it to be effective.

Posted by: reality at February 28, 2008 9:39 AM


When someone is really poor, all it takes is one layoff, busted engine, bad illness or other unforeseen expense to wipe out the monthly budget and leave a woman with no money for condoms/pills/whatever for a few weeks/months.
Poor people don't have the constant financial security that middle class white folks have. But birth control use has to be constant for it to be effective.

Oh give me a break. For the first few years of my marriage I did not have a car to drive. I was poor. I asked my friends to help take me places I needed- plus if you really need to get into town you can use CARTS or some other type of transportation for 1 dollar a day. I cleaned houses, babysat, and did other errands for a little bit of cash, and it worked well.
If you really want something, you can get it. Poor people aren't incapable of getting up off their butt and doing something for themselves. You make them sound like they are handicapped or something.

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 9:43 AM


Mary,

Planned Parenthood can't afford to put a clinic in every small town in America. Sorry.

Posted by: reality at February 28, 2008 9:45 AM


Per Realtiy:

"Maybe, maybe not. Depends on her income and whether or not the local PP clinic has been forced to close down thanks to pro-lifers cutting off state funding."'

Reality,
After seeing the financial statements for PP, I hardly think that after making hundreds of millions of dollars in profit each year,they are too broke to buy women birth control to hand out. Quit the fabricating.


BTW,

You are full of excuses. Let's talk about personal responsibility. You make it sound like women are too imobilized and too weak to do anything for themselves.

How do women get to the grocery store?
(you can buy condoms here)
How do women get to the mall for clothing?
(you can buy condoms here)
How do women get to school?
(most often can get condoms here)
How do women get around to their jobs?
How so women get to their hair appointments?
How do women get to church?
How do women get to the nail salon?

The same women who can get themselves around town to the above, can certainly get themselves to a clinic to pick up birth control as needed.

What PP clnic would turn a woman away and not give her birth control when she needs it?
The same clinic that would rather she come back for an abortion later.

Posted by: Sandy at February 28, 2008 9:54 AM


Oh give me a break. For the first few years of my marriage I did not have a car to drive. I was poor. I asked my friends to help take me places I needed- plus if you really need to get into town you can use CARTS or some other type of transportation for 1 dollar a day.

You may have been poor, but you certainly weren't the poorest. There are people who don't have friends with cars, or public transportation, or even a dollar a day.

If you really want something, you can get it.

Like abortion?

Posted by: reality at February 28, 2008 9:55 AM


Go Sandy!!!

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 9:56 AM


Reality,

They don't have to put one in every small town. Most rural areas are located near cities small and large and people travel between rural and city areas all the time. Our medium size city has a PP and women easily travel in from rural areas all the time to shop, see the doctor, enter the hospitals, etc. Maybe the money for the megaclinics could better be spent sending PP personnel to poorer more isolated areas, like what visiting nurses do.

Posted by: Mary at February 28, 2008 9:57 AM


You may have been poor, but you certainly weren't the poorest. There are people who don't have friends with cars, or public transportation, or even a dollar a day.
You mean homeless people?

And just how are the apparently homeless people with no arms and legs, who don't have friends, cars, public transportation, or even a dollar a day going to save up the 350.00 or more needed for an abortion?

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 9:58 AM


Sandy --

After seeing the financial statements for PP, I hardly think that after making hundreds of millions of dollars in profit each year,they are too broke to buy women birth control to hand out.

Planned Parenthood is a non-profit organization. They make $0 profit every year. Everything they earn goes in to providing health care and defending access to health care, and still it is not enough, because there are still too many people in the US with poor access to health care.

You are full of excuses. Let's talk about personal responsibility.

No, let's not, because I'm not the one you need to talk to. I have an IUD. I haven't experienced any unplanned pregnancies. I am not the poorest of the poor. There are poorer people than me, and I'm not going to pretend they don't exist just to please you.

There are people in this country without jobs, without homes, without money for condoms (food stamps don't pay for condoms), and they sure as hell don't go to church or get their hair or nails done. The fact that you would even mention such trivialities shows just how sheltered you are.

Posted by: reality at February 28, 2008 10:05 AM


Reality -

"Maybe, maybe not. Depends on her income and whether or not the local PP clinic has been forced to close down thanks to pro-lifers cutting off state funding. "

You are beginning to sound like a two year old throwing a temper tantrum.

PP is a part of Title X which means that they have a sliding scale for all incomes. This means that if you cannot afford BC you get it for free. Here is their information on Title X:

www.plannedparenthood.org/issues-action/birth-control/title-x-15505.htm

Also, you can go here:

www.plannedparenthood.org/files/PPFA/Annual_report.pdf

and see that PP:

305.3 million in government money
212.2 million from private donation
55.8 million excess of revenue.

They ain't poor. Here is the proof. So you can stop the temper tantrum now.

Posted by: valerie at February 28, 2008 10:06 AM


And just how are the apparently homeless people with no arms and legs, who don't have friends, cars, public transportation, or even a dollar a day going to save up the 350.00 or more needed for an abortion?

A lot can happen in a few months. People can find new jobs, get their cars fixed, make new friends, and save up for that abortion they need. Luckily, abortion is legal up to about 20 weeks, so that gives them time.

Posted by: reality at February 28, 2008 10:08 AM


Reality -

I'll spell it out for you (since I was a bit vague in my last post, sorry)

PP 2005 - 2006 report:

Expenses: 847 million
Revenue: 902.8 million
Excess of revenue: 55.8 million

This means they had 55.8 million dollars to put back into the company at the end of the fiscal year for 2006.

On top of the 55.8 million they are still getting money from the government, private donations, guttmacher institute and what they charge their clients.

Show me where they are too poor to keep their clinics open.

Posted by: valerie at February 28, 2008 10:11 AM


Valerie,

You are beginning to sound like a two year old throwing a temper tantrum.

I don't know why you "pro-lifers" always have to throw around insults. I think it makes you look rather desperate.

PP is a part of Title X which means that they have a sliding scale for all incomes. This means that if you cannot afford BC you get it for free.

Title X does not receive adequate funding.

Posted by: reality at February 28, 2008 10:18 AM


There are people in this country without jobs, without homes, without money for condoms (food stamps don't pay for condoms), and they sure as hell don't go to church or get their hair or nails done. The fact that you would even mention such trivialities shows just how sheltered you are.

Reality, have you ever been around these poor people personally? My parents used to drive to the poorest parts of town, in trailer parks that were run down, people who had no electricity, no windows (duct tape where they should be), and no doors (blankets up instead). (We drove the children there to church- and helped them with free groceries and things like that).
I was friends with many of the children from these places, and ended up spending days with them, when my mom would go to visit. I noticed that these people, who couldn't even afford to pay for their own groceries, somehow managed to pay for cigarettes, alcohol, and even a large TV from the Rent a TV place.
The things that those people desired, they were able to pay for. The things that they didn't care about so much, they didn't pay for.
Many of these people were people who were simply unwilling to work. I know one man counted his weight as a disability, even though he was well capable of working.
I know one woman who said that she didn't want to work because if she did, she'd stop getting food stamps.
You are acting as though these people "can't" do anything, but they can. They simply choose not to!
There are very rare cases where people actually are limited in their ability to work and pay for their own food and other necessities in life.

My husband and his family lived in a tent for 2 years while his father built a house out of what used to be a chicken house! Scrap by scrap, they did what they could until they had what they needed. They worked hard to make ends meet. If you WANT to make things work, you CAN make things work.

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 10:26 AM


This means they had 55.8 million dollars to put back into the company at the end of the fiscal year for 2006.

Yes, it's always good to have some funds in the bank. You can't run a successful organization with $0 in the bank at the end of the year. Obviously, an organization like Planned Parenthood has a constant stream of revenue coming in and going out, and it sits in the bank for a time in between. But it all eventually gets spent on reproductive health care and access.

Posted by: reality at February 28, 2008 10:27 AM


A lot can happen in a few months. People can find new jobs, get their cars fixed, make new friends, and save up for that abortion they need. Luckily, abortion is legal up to about 20 weeks, so that gives them time.

So, they can't muster up ONE dollar in a day, but they can find a way to come up with 350 dollars in a matter of a few months? And all of a sudden their social skills get better and they can find friends with money? I thought you said friends like that weren't available for them? Oh and of course, all of a sudden, they can get a job too. Of course.

Hmm, something isn't adding up here.

And isn't it funny how their car is broken down when they need condoms but magically gets fixed when they want an abortion?

Funny how that works out in your mind.

I don't think you'd know reality if it came out and bit you in the face.


Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 10:31 AM


And you do realize, don't you, that abortions are more expensive the more months you wait?

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 10:34 AM


Reality -

"What government statistics would those be? I don't believe the government collects statistics on women's feelings about their abortions."

Here ya go -

rpc.senate.gov/_files/51397Abortion.pdf

supreme.lp.findlaw.com/supreme_court/briefs/05-1382/05-1382.mer.ami.prolifephys.pdf

www.nrlc.org/abortion/Fetal_Pain/Norig%20Ellison%20v.%20Mary%20Campbell.pdf

thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/T?&report=hr024&dbname=105&

thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.1457:

All the statistics can be found in these court documentations. I even put one court document in just for fun. It is when PC lied on the stand in the first partial birth abortion ban bill.

"I know I am. If you'd just remember this from now on, it'd save you a lot of typing. "

Sing with me to the tune of the old Dr. Pepper commercials:

I'm sarcastic, Your sarcastic, wouldn't you like to be sarcastic too? lalalalalallala

"I don't see that anywhere on the Exiled mothers site."

Talk about drive by reading. I even copy and pasted one example in my post.

"I didn't see any "adoption is bad" statistics on that link you posted. It was just a long report on why CPCs suck. "

I should have explained myself a bit better though..... You see, I have documented several times where the PC'er like to give a negative feeling about adoption. They give real negaitive stories, but don't provide all the positive statistics or any positive story. That is what they did there. Since I am researching this stuff on a daily basis, I do forget that not everyone is as much of a geek as me.

"That can't be true, because clinics like Planned Parenthood always tell women about their options and groups that can help them keep their babies. "

Prove it. Second request.

"But obviously, having an attorney does not guarantee that a woman can get her child back."

If the baby was removed because of neglect or abuse this is true. It is was a voluntary adoption this is not true. It is stated in the contracts that the mother has 6 months to think it over. And the adoption is not considered finalized until after the 6 months.

More to come.....


Posted by: valerie at February 28, 2008 10:35 AM


Bethany,

Good point. I've seen people with money to spend on pot, booze, and cigarettes, but can't pay their electric bill. I hear about the healthcare "crisis" in country yet see people spending thousands on cosmetic surgery.
Its about priorities. I am happy to help anyone legitimately in need of help and there certainly are such people.
There are also people who need to set their priorities and take much more personal responsiblity for themselves and their families.

Posted by: Mary at February 28, 2008 10:37 AM


Reality:

"they sure as hell don't go to church "

huh? So, if your poor you don't go to church? Really? maybe I should tell all those churches in downtown Indianapolis that the poor don't want to go to church and to just put those vans in the garage! You know, the vans that pick up the people who are disabled and can't take the bus.

"I don't know why you "pro-lifers" always have to throw around insults. I think it makes you look rather desperate. "

hahahahahahahahahahah

Tell that to Laura, TexasRed, Sally etc.

Trust me, saying someone "sounds like" a two year old is far from the insults we receive. Just because you "sound like" something doesn't mean you "are" the something.

"Title X does not receive adequate funding."

Per Planned Parenthood. The state and county health departments don't seem to have a problem with it. Planned Parenthood doesn't request as much money as they should. You can go to their own website and see that the biggest female reproductive center requests the least amount of money. Hello?

"But it all eventually gets spent on reproductive health care and access."

So which is it? They have the money or they don't?

Posted by: valerie at February 28, 2008 10:45 AM


A lot can happen in a few months. People can find new jobs, get their cars fixed, make new friends, and save up for that abortion they need. Luckily, abortion is legal up to about 20 weeks, so that gives them time.

Posted by: reality at February 28, 2008 10:08 AM

Unreality,
You can't even see the contradictions in your own arguements.

Let's try this again:

"A lot can happen in a few months. People can find new jobs, get their cars fixed, make new friends, and save up for that BIRTH CONTROL they need. Luckily, BIRTH CONTROL is AVAILABLE ANYTIME

Posted by: Sandy at February 28, 2008 10:55 AM


Bethany and Sandy,

I love you ladies. Your logic is undeniable...except to those who just stamp their feet, hold their breath, and pretend they can't hear you.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 28, 2008 2:18 PM


Elizabeth, we love you too, and very much appreciate you being a part of this blog.

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 3:14 PM


Oh and I was 21.
Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 8:53 AM
...............................

That is really odd Bethany. Is there a reason your doctor would assume you wouldn't want or shouldn't have any more children?

Posted by: Sally at February 28, 2008 7:18 PM


Finally! A pro-lifer willing to admit that the "I Regret My Abortion" set are just a bunch of killers with no one to blame but themselves. Thank you!

Many of them are, Reality. Absolutely!
I never said there weren't some women that were like that.

However, many women are ignorant of fetal development too, sadly. Those are the women who when they learn what they've done, severely regret it.

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 9:15 AM
............................

Bethany,
I have to hand it to you. Really. You are the only woman I have ever heard of to pick through the gore of her own miscarriage to locate, clean and photograph her own fetus. I am fascinated at the unemotional and scientific curiosity that would certainly have to motivate such an undertaking. It takes some study and training to produce such a clean and clear picture of an early fetus. What was your methodology? Why haven't you written a paper on it?
Planning on being the first undertaker for embryos and bogarting your secrets of fetus embalment/pickeling are you?

Posted by: Sally at February 28, 2008 7:41 PM


That is really odd Bethany. Is there a reason your doctor would assume you wouldn't want or shouldn't have any more children?

Nope, I'm pretty sure he was just looking for some extra $$$.

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 8:07 PM


Bethany,
I have to hand it to you. Really. You are the only woman I have ever heard of to pick through the gore of her own miscarriage to locate, clean and photograph her own fetus. I am fascinated at the unemotional and scientific curiosity that would certainly have to motivate such an undertaking. It takes some study and training to produce such a clean and clear picture of an early fetus. What was your methodology? Why haven't you written a paper on it?
Planning on being the first undertaker for embryos and bogarting your secrets of fetus embalment/pickeling are you?

I am actually writing a book on it, Sally, and I'll be happy to send you a copy of it when it is finished.

No cleaning was necessary, no gore was present. I was very deeply emotional at the time and loved my child and that is the very reason that I photographed my baby so that I would never forget what Blessing looked like.

I feel sorry for you, Sally, because I feel that your outrage and confusion over what I did is really just a cover for the sadness that you feel as a result of losing your unborn baby in the way you did, and not having the ability to have the closure that I had. I am very sorry that your miscarriage/abortion (I am not sure which it was) was so traumatic and I hope that you will find some way to come to terms with it. I hope that you will find comfort and peace about your loss of your sweet baby.

If you ever do decide to come to terms with your feelings, I will be the first to support and comfort you if you seek it.

Until then, I know I will be able to expect you to scoff and say that I'm weird to think that you would ever feel such a way over a "mindless embryo".

Take care, Sally.

Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 8:12 PM


Bethany,
What a wonderful response. You are such a gifted writer. I know millions of women will be so grateful to have your book to help them gracefully grieve through their own miscarriage experience.

Keep up your work Bethany, what you are doing is so important and valuable to women.

Posted by: Sandy at February 28, 2008 8:23 PM


Sally,
You really shouldn't be posting here when you're off your meds.

Posted by: Sandy at February 28, 2008 8:26 PM


Bethany,

Sandy put it so beautifully that I'll just say I second what she said.

Posted by: Mary at February 28, 2008 8:42 PM


*applause for Bethany*

Posted by: Ari-chan at February 28, 2008 8:46 PM


Bethany,
I have to hand it to you. Really. You are the only woman I have ever heard of to pick through the gore of her own miscarriage to locate, clean and photograph her own fetus. I am fascinated at the unemotional and scientific curiosity that would certainly have to motivate such an undertaking. It takes some study and training to produce such a clean and clear picture of an early fetus. What was your methodology? Why haven't you written a paper on it?
Planning on being the first undertaker for embryos and bogarting your secrets of fetus embalment/pickeling are you?

I am actually writing a book on it, Sally, and I'll be happy to send you a copy of it when it is finished.

No cleaning was necessary, no gore was present. I was very deeply emotional at the time and loved my child and that is the very reason that I photographed my baby so that I would never forget what Blessing looked like.

I feel sorry for you, Sally, because I feel that your outrage and confusion over what I did is really just a cover for the sadness that you feel as a result of losing your unborn baby in the way you did, and not having the ability to have the closure that I had. I am very sorry that your miscarriage/abortion (I am not sure which it was) was so traumatic and I hope that you will find some way to come to terms with it. I hope that you will find comfort and peace about your loss of your sweet baby.

If you ever do decide to come to terms with your feelings, I will be the first to support and comfort you if you seek it.

Until then, I know I will be able to expect you to scoff and say that I'm weird to think that you would ever feel such a way over a "mindless embryo".

Take care, Sally.
Posted by: Bethany at February 28, 2008 8:12 PM

..................................

Oh Bethany! You are not going to try the 'it just fell out of me looking just like that' bull. OK well, every sci fi writer needs a beginning.
Where did you pirate the pic? You have no obvious knowledge of what it would take to prepare a fetus for photography or photograph such.
You are a liar. A deceiver as it will. The instrument of Satan. IE:
Before you can fool anyone, you have to fool yourself.

Posted by: Sally at February 28, 2008 9:12 PM


Sally,
You really shouldn't be posting here when you're off your meds.

Posted by: Sandy at February 28, 2008 8:26 PM
..................................

Sandy,
I will tell you just once more to quit picking your nose and eating your boogers.

Posted by: Sally at February 28, 2008 9:16 PM


Sally,

Really, both these posts are a new low on your part. I've seen you get pretty nasty, especially with me, but these are extreme and tasteless.

Posted by: Mary at February 28, 2008 9:28 PM


Sally -

"Where did you pirate the pic? You have no obvious knowledge of what it would take to prepare a fetus for photography or photograph such. "

So what would need to be done to prepare a fetus this young for photograph and take the picture?

You seem to know these things. Why don't you enlighten us.

Posted by: valerie at February 28, 2008 11:44 PM


Sally...just stop. Please. You're being unnecessarily vindictive and rude. You're done.

Posted by: Ari-chan at February 28, 2008 11:57 PM


"Genocide" is silly - it doesn't apply.

Why should a black woman with an unwanted pregnancy worry about there being more hispanics in the US now than blacks?

Since 1950 the black population, as a percentage of Americans, has gone up by 50%.

Doug

Posted by: Anonymous at February 29, 2008 12:19 AM


You have no obvious knowledge of what it would take to prepare a fetus for photography or photograph such.

How would you KNOW that Sally? You live with Bethany? You have coffee with her once a week? No..you know nothing about her or her knowledge of ANYTHING..so why don't you just crawl back into whatever hole you crawled out of and wait til darkness comes again.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 29, 2008 12:20 AM


what it would take to prepare a fetus for photography

A few lessons in exposure, lens focal length, and composition would help.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 29, 2008 12:23 AM


If abortion of Black fetuses is genocide, then are Black women the perpetrators of said genocide?

Well (heh) it's not.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 29, 2008 12:26 AM


Reality,

You may have been poor, but you certainly weren't the poorest. There are people who don't have friends with cars, or public transportation, or even a dollar a day.

Really? No friends? No car? No Public transportation? Not even a dollar a day?

Well then they shouldn't have to worry about birth control, because to need it you would have to be in a RELATIONSHIP! Which means you do have a friend. If you are willing to let him slip in willy, I'd imagine you could get him to buy his own condoms!

I certainly wouldn't share my body with someone who refused to take me to the pharmacy to get my birth control!

Posted by: mk at February 29, 2008 7:49 AM


Oh Bethany! You are not going to try the 'it just fell out of me looking just like that' bull. OK well, every sci fi writer needs a beginning.
Where did you pirate the pic? You have no obvious knowledge of what it would take to prepare a fetus for photography or photograph such.
You are a liar. A deceiver as it will. The instrument of Satan. IE:
Before you can fool anyone, you have to fool yourself.

A little quiz for Sally. What is this unborn baby surrounded in? Blood? Or Amniotic fluid, which is clear?

Or how about this one, since you probably will pretend that the above photo has no validity. This picture came from Planned Parenthood:

And this one:

Are these unborn babies(or fetuses, or embryos) bodies surrounded in 1.) a clear fluid, or 2.) blood? I think the answer is obvious.

Posted by: Bethany at February 29, 2008 8:01 AM


Mary, Sandy, Ari-Chan, Elizabeth, Valerie, etc... I'm so glad to have you all as friends.

Posted by: Bethany at February 29, 2008 8:04 AM


Sally,

I'm sure when you wake up today, nurse your hangover, and reread your posts to Bethany, you will realize how very awful you sounded. It's hard to make moral judgments when you are under the influence of alcohol, but we understand that alcoholism is a disease and won't hold it against you. Since you are big on "Before you can fool anyone, you have to fool yourself.", I would urge you to face you addiction, get help, and put the bottle down.

Until then, please consider apologizing to Bethany. There are many posters here that have resorted to sarcasm and "Poking", but Bethany isn't one of them. Why you would hurt her, is beyond me. Would it make you happy if you were able to make her cry?

Cruelty is so unbecoming...

Posted by: mk at February 29, 2008 8:06 AM


Thank you, Marykay.

I have to say though, although it was most likely unintentional, Sally has complimented my photography. By saying she doesn't believe I could have done it, shows me that she believes it looks professional, which is quite a compliment. I do appreciate that.

Posted by: Bethany at February 29, 2008 8:14 AM


Mary, Sandy, Ari-Chan, Elizabeth, Valerie, etc... I'm so glad to have you all as friends.


Posted by: Bethany at February 29, 2008 8:04 AM

Me too! ((hugs))

Posted by: Sandy at February 29, 2008 8:33 AM


Bethany, Sandy, Ari-Chan, Elizabeth, Valerie, etc...I'm so glad to have you all as friends.

Me three! ((HUGS))

Posted by: Mary at February 29, 2008 8:54 AM


Sally: Your comments to Bethany were extremely cruel. I think you owe her an apology. Whether you think you owe her an apology is another story. Bethany is always so gracious to people from both sides. We could all learn alot from Bethany about how to treat people.

Posted by: Carrie at February 29, 2008 9:13 AM


Dear Bethany,
You are just one of the sweetest people I have met in blogland and you know how much Blessing means to me and to others. You are an inspiration to so many hurting women. Thank you!
I apologize for Sally. She is soulsick.

Posted by: Carla at February 29, 2008 11:46 AM


Me 4...:internet hugs:

:)))

Now off to speech class. Ick.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 29, 2008 1:03 PM



Posted by: Bethany at February 29, 2008 1:34 PM


MK: There are many posters here that have resorted to sarcasm and "Poking", but Bethany isn't one of them.

She poked me right into a trash can.

But I liked it.

Posted by: Doug at March 2, 2008 11:38 PM